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Practice those dance moves because we've got season 1 episode 2 of Dawson's Creek: Dance, also known as Dirty Dancing. Don't miss the boat!
A Dawson's Creek Rewatch Podcast for those who missed the boat!
Freaks & Creeks: a Dawson's Creek Podcast dives into each episode of the hit '90s TV show Dawson's Creek with a fresh perspective. Join Cody, Stella, Mal and James as they set sail through turbulent waters determined to understand this iconic teen drama’s place in the modern television zeitgeist.
Cody: Welcome to Freaks and Creeks. A Dawson's Creek podcast is a show where four millennials who missed the boat 25 years ago take the dive for the first time, joining and us as we experience the series with a fresh perspective week to week and see if our adolescent experiences match up with Dawson and the gang. My name is Cody.
Stella: I'm Stella.
Mal: I'm Mal. As in Mallory.
James: And I'm James. And this week we are talking about season one, episode two, the Dance. Now, this episode aired on January 27, 1998, and the synopsis for the episode is it's the night of the school dance. Dawson reveals his feelings for Jen, Joey confronts Dawson's mom with what she has seen, and Pacey confronts his teacher over that kiss.
Cody: Or Alternatively, this is a 45 minutes commercial for chap stick.
James: Yes, it is. That product placement was wonderful and I loved it. So before we get into the episode details itself and do the scene play by play, I just want to ask you all, how did this watch treat you? It's now our second episode of Dawson's Creek. We've now seen two episodes here. What do you all think without giving too much away? What was your experience?
James: Stella?
James: I'll go with you first.
Stella: I loved it. Overall. I had a lot of fun. Yeah. I enjoyed watching it, and I'm really excited to keep going. I just want to know what happens next. Mallory, I loved it as well.
Mal: there's so much to talk about at the end. I was so excited about what's going to happen next.
James: Yeah.
Cody: I mean, overall, I think there's such a noticeable difference from the pilot to this, not just in terms of like when they shot it or what we just talked about, but I feel like the writing is stronger, the performances are stronger, and it just felt like there was such a better speed with all of the characters. And after we finished the pilot, I was like, oh, Geez, what did we get ourselves into? Because if we're going to get 128 episodes or so of this, I'm nervous. But after this, I was into it. Even though they doubled down on a lot of things that I wish they didn't double down on, there are a lot of really strong things about this that made me excited.
James: Agreed. I mean, it was such a charged episode from start to finish. I mean, I guess we might as well go ahead and get into it. So, Cody, go ahead and kick us off of the very first scene.
Cody: Yeah, sure. So we're jumping straight into Dawson's room, and after re watching footage from their horror movie film shoot, Dawson gives Joey some flak for not kissing Pacey during an essential scene and opens the door a little bit for Dawson trying to kiss Jen. And how that's going between them?
James: Yeah. First and foremost, the little clip of the movie that they're watching confirms everything that we were talking about last week. This is a total hack film. This movie sucks. I can't believe that this is what we are using. I mean, I guess I can if they're using this as our barometer for Dawson's filmmaking prowess, it only stands the reason he's going to get to be much better by the time he gets out of this shot. When it finally transitions to the bedroom, we see Dawson staring intently at what I initially thought was the back of Joey's head, and it is revealed that is, I guess, a prop mannequin head that he is doing the makeup for.
Cody: Yes, it looks like the Polar Express kids. It's really terrifying.
Mal: Great job with the prop Department.
James: Yeah. This mannequin head features quite predominantly through the rest of this episode, so I'm sure we're going to have a lot to say here. But the line that I liked about this scene, so this whole scene is, in my opinion, it's like setting up the whole crux of this episode. Right. It pays off on multiple levels throughout. But why don't you just pretend that you're kissing someone else?
James: Yeah.
Cody: I mean, one of the biggest jumps I think, in this, as I said, was the writing. And I love that we're getting a really strong allegory with the film that they're shooting that is coinciding with Dawson, and that is the theme of this episode. He is the monster that he is shooting, and something that kind of worried me with the first episode of Dawson being a gross horny teen boy that's just like going after Jen, and it was kind of problematic. They're making him the protagonist. We're supposed to root for him, but he's kind of a gross dude. But now, like, in the second episode, I love that they're actually kind of calling him out on that and saying like, oh, you do have this kind of Dr. Jackie, Mr. Hyde relationship with the women that you're filming, and we're going to see that go from start to finish of this episode, and they're really going to play down. I really like that.
James: Um.
Stella: I don't think this is going to happen, but I thought it was interesting that the first and second episode both start with a clip from his movie. And I was kind of wondering if each episode this season would start with a little clip from his movie. But it sounded like the film festival is coming up, so I kind of doubt that. But that would be kind of fun.
James: That's the way that we get to see Dawson's film is just in little 32nd Increments. Over the course of the season.
Cody: Um.
James: I hope that we never get to watch the whole thing.
Cody: I disagree. I want an entire 45 minutes film. i'm worried for Dawson, the character, because this film is shit. So it's not going to get into a festival, but something that really grinds my gears. And it's confirmed later and we see that this clip at the beginning of the characters walking towards the camera from the dock, and they're having this conversation. But later, when we actually see them shooting this film, no one's doing sound, but the sound is immaculate in this short. And just like, as someone that's worked on films and stuff, it totally grinds my gears, man. I want to see a sound person doing that. So it's really weird. And also we'll see that later that Dawson is wearing headphones, but there's nothing he's listening to. So I imagine that he's probably just listening to the soundtrack to Dawson cassette on his walking.
James: And as we find out in a later scene, they're just shooting this on the parents handicam. Right. And we do see a couple of shots of that in the first episode, too, just using this camera. And to your point, Cody, where are the microphones? Because there's not an outboard microphone on that camera that I could see. So how are we getting the quality of audio that we are? I guess we're reading too deep into the filmmaking of Dawson's Creek, but it's.
Cody: Just something that I'm nodding her head a little too intensely right now. But you know what? I'm going to say? We got to talk about it because it's a part of Dawson's life.
Mal: I like to start talking about why they are focusing so much on how much Joey hates Pacey. Does this mean down the line? Are Joey and Pacey going to have a thing? There's so much about how she thinks he's so repelling. And it's, like, very strong in this scene.
Cody: Well, I feel really bad for Joey. I think this entire show is just going to be me feeling bad for Joey because every episode is knocking her over and over again. She loves Dawson. She wants to be with Dawson. It's not going to happen. Or is it? But this whole thing, I mean, like, Dawson is not a good friend. I wish I knew why she was so in love with him. Because she does express like, I really don't want to do this. I'm sorry Dawson will star in your movie, but I do not want to kiss Pacey. And his reaction is, just do it for me. It's so gross. I hate their dynamic. Yeah.
Mal: It's like she's expressing how uncomfortable she is. And if he was a good friend, he would be like, oh, yeah, if you're not uncomfortable, if you're uncomfortable kissing this person, then, no, we're not going to put you in that situation. She called them a Cretan.
James: It just begs the question, how did this friend group get started if seemingly everybody hates Pacey? Like, even Dawson is not super high on Pacey. So why is he here? Is it his acting chops? Is he just like the theater kid? He gets all the leads and all the community plays, and Dawson's, like, this kid is going somewhere. Let's put him in my movie.
Cody: My head Cannon is that Joshua Jackson does not know that he's in a TV show. And Dawson actually, all of this is real. And Dawson is like, oh, my God, we can get Joshua Jackson if we just keep calling him Pacey. He'll do this movie. He thinks his character is Pacey. He's a character within a character. It's like a David Lynch movie. And so he's like, yeah, we got to get Joshua Jackson, Pacey, into my awesome monster movie, and we won't have to pay him. I mean, it's a win win for everybody except for Joshua Jackson.
James: I have multiple theories about this film that are unequally Sci-Fi plot level, so I think we should run with that. This is a meta narrative, and they're all actually real. yeah. I mean, does anybody have anything else to say about this scene? It really kind of kicks off the episode in ways that I didn't realize upon my first watch. It wasn't until the second watch I was like, oh, actually, this scene is important.
Mal: Well, we cannot not talk about the leather straps and Crisco comment.
Cody: Yeah, that goes through the whole thing.
Stella: Is that seen before or after the opening credits?
Mal: This is in Dawson's room.
Cody: Yeah. The teaser.
James: Yeah. All right, I don't want us to get too graphic here, but could somebody explain to me the leather straps in Crisco? I mean, I'm assuming Crisco is loop and leather straps are just restraints. Is that all we're getting at? We're just getting a BDSM, essentially.
Cody: No. i'm a bigger guy. And for me to put a belt on, it's really difficult. So I have to take restraints for a BDSM, and I lube it up with Crisco to put it through my belt loops every morning.
Mal: Every day.
James: Every day.
Cody: Well, you help me, so thank you for that.
Mal: We go through a lot of crystals.
Cody: I'm a big man. I just want to say, too, that the production design is so much better here because Dawson's room, while still gross, they've made it a little less about movies, and they kind of made it more of, like, a teen boy and the coolest thing I've ever seen. And even from when I was a child, I thought, this is so cool. And I always wanted this is that Dawson has a street sign. This is Dawson Street.
Mal: Yeah, totally.
Cody: I thought that was so cool. If I was a kid watching that, I'd be like, oh, my God, I got to get Cody Street in here.
James: So cool. It is really cool.
Mal: Another favorite line that I wrote was when Jocelyn showed Joey the model head, the mannequin head, and he said, you give good lip.
Stella: Oh, my God. Yes. Oh, boy.
Mal: Yeah.
Cody: You definitely have kissing lips.
Mal: Yeah.
James: So, I mean, this scene hits it hard from the start. We get the hyper sexualized dialogue with the Crisco and the leather straps. We get this weird, like, tension. This scene really has it all laid out from the very beginning, Dawson is complimenting Joey Unknowingly, and she is taking it as if it's like leaving the door open for them. But, man, that Mannequin head is terrifying. I'm sorry. It is scary looking. I didn't like it. I mean, yes, he did a good job. He made it look kind of like an actual head, but it really looked a lot like a severed head, which I guess is what he's going for.
Cody: I don't know if you noticed, but if you pause it and you walk around your TV, the eyes follow you wherever you go.
Mal: Also, I want to know why he only needs the Crisco explained and not the leather straps. If he is, quote, a strapping young man who doesn't have sex on the brain, but he doesn't need the leather straps.
Cody: Yeah, Williamson, write us, please. i don't want to wait for a life to be over.
Stella: Okay. I think in the opening credits seemed, like a little bit different.
Cody: Oh, I didn't know.
Mal: I didn't actually pay attention.
James: I couldn't quite tell. I kind of agree with you. It wasn't like I remembered it felt longer, maybe like there was more footage.
Stella: Or something, and maybe they kept the.
Mal: Song in a different spot. I don't know.
Stella: I don't know. So I noticed that Pacey was, like, bowing to that. Okay. I noticed it this time. And I was like, yeah, that seems very on brand for him.
Cody: it made me think like, oh, he is an actor. That's like, if they're interested in that. It was very Shakespearean. Like, he's an actor and he's doing his little bow after his performance as a sea creature. But, yeah, finally we get back to Capeside High School, and Nelly is reminding us all that the big school dance is on Saturday. And from here, Dawson visits Mr. Gold's room for.
James: whoa.
Mal: I have some things to say about Nelly.
Cody: Oh, you do?
Mal: Sorry. In this moment, yes. Before we move on to Mr. Gold's classroom, please. I felt like she was serving major, like, Share from Clueless vibes. Like her character in this moment. I thought this is like. And Clueless was 95 classic 90s film. Nelly is this, like, bossy kind of spoiled personality?
Cody: Sure.
Mal: And yeah, I just thought this is like, Share. Her dad owns the video store Share. She is like the rich dad and also the Little House in the Prairie character. I looked her up. Nellie in Little House in the Prairie had the same character. She was like the snobby girl with the rich.
Cody: That's fun, though.
Mal: Yeah.
Cody: I mean, that probably is like a meta textual thing. Like, we want to incorporate other TV tropes into this show if we're going to be pretty on point with it.
James: Or Nelly in Dawson's Creek is Nelly in Little House Prayer. It's a shared universe. She is an immortal vampire and her dad is also an immortal vampire. I enjoy this. Kind of like they're not making too big of a deal over the fact that the school dance is coming, but they're letting us all know, hey, this episode is really going to feature the dance heavily. Let's get this out first really quickly, and then snap, cut away to something else. It didn't take up too much space. It gave us a character that we've already met and hopefully are going to see more of. If Nellie is speaking on the PA, she's probably in student government. She's in some kind of, like, actual role in the school. So she's probably also on the party planning committee. She probably helped put together this school dance. I feel like it says a lot more about her in such a short period of time, and that's really all we get to see of Nellie in this entire episode. It's just that one little scene she's.
Mal: In a little more.
James: Well, sure. But the most we get of her.
Mal: She'S in the film class.
James: Exactly. Yeah, you're right. But it pushes her character for it develops her character just a little bit. Again, like I said, total throwaway scene, really short. Well, it's not a throwaway scene. It's pivotal. It's crucial to the rest of the episode. But it's so short. And I think it just does so much with what it has that I was impressed.
Mal: I didn't want to skip it. I was like, this is like Nelly's moment.
Cody: And it is interesting that they're using this to introduce the scene of Dawson, but like, the world of this sequence of the classroom. But also to the point that I really liked about this is you can tell that they're like, should we shoot the football game? Let's not, because they're like, this is going to be a celebratory dance. Like if we win, right? Just going to skip over it, which I thought was great. They're like, do we have it in budget or should we just not care at all? Okay. So yes, Nelly, we had Nelly. We get a lot of Nelly, and now we get Dawson, who's still moving in on Mr. Gold's fifth period class for film. And Dawson says that he'll use it for a study all, but he's not going to participate. And this was an interesting turn for me because I thought in the pilot episode, when Dawson is trying to get into this class, we all kind of agreed. Like, he just wants to use this as an opportunity to be an insufferable know it all. But if he can't participate, then it's almost like, well, now I kind of like, okay with it. I don't know about you if that even crossed your mind at all.
James: Yeah. I mean, first I was like, okay, cool. He's definitely not going to do any of that. He is going to be an insufferable at all. There's absolutely no way he is going to be sitting quiet in the back of the class and doing this. But then at the same time the writer and me. The storyteller in me was like, what a perfect way of getting him to have what he wants. But at the same time, he's not getting what he wants. It keeps this tension going. It keeps some conflicts present. And I loved it this episode. I feel like there are multiple points of this that I will get into later, but I love the way that this show is predictable to the point where you know exactly what's going to happen. But it doesn't feel bad when it happens.
James: Right.
James: Like Dawson being able to get into the film class. Predictable. Of course he's going to get in the film class, but there's the wrinkle that he can't participate. It just feels so satisfying. I don't know. I don't know if that's good writing, but I think of it as good writing that we all know where it's going, but we're still kind of surprised by the way it unravels.
James: Yeah.
Cody: I think any writers room works the same way as you present one challenge and then see how a character would react to that challenge. And if they do succeed, what challenge comes from that that they've just accomplished, which is the entire series of Breaking Bad. but here it's like. Yeah, like the challenges. He's going to get into the class. Yeah, he can't participate.
Mal: Where do we move from here? And it's funny because later in the scene when he's in the class, there's a moment where he tries to participate that gets shut down.
Cody: Yeah, exactly.
Mal: They kind of tie it back in.
Stella: I just thought it was so funny that the teacher was, like, so passionately. You will not participate. Wouldn't it be nice to have a student that's really enthusiastic and really wants to be there? I agree.
James: I don't know.
Stella: It seems weird.
James: Well, especially when we then see the class, the scene of the class later, which we'll discuss more. It's like you need somebody like Dawson who has taste. I'm sorry.
Mal: I can't wait for that.
Cody: Well, I'm just going to say it right here and now. I'm team Cliff. I am not joking. I think Cliff's ideas are much better than Dawson.
Mal: he's a triple threat.
Cody: He is a triple threat. But we're not there yet. We moved now to them doubling down on the worst plot line from the pilot. So we're in Ms. Jacob's single slit class and Pacey visits so he could talk about their discussion kiss from the last episode. How are we all feeling after this?
Stella: I mean, okay, beyond the baseline, how disgusting it is. I just thought it was really bizarre that PC is having this conversation in front of all these students and we clearly see one watching the whole thing. You're asking for everyone to find out. Like rumors are going to start. Like, do you just not give a fuck? Like, I don't know. That was stressing me out.
Mal: Yeah. How does he not understand the whole illegal nature of this whole thing that he's doing. I don't care.
Cody: I think we all agreed last episode that this is taking place in a town of 20, and at least 15 of the 20 were at the movie and saw the fight between them happen. And then now we're in the classroom where there's at least ten of those people. It's the same people watching this happen. Like they're all going to connect the dots. There's no nuance or subtlety of Pacey trying to get with Miss Jacobs.
James: No, this whole scene felt like if this were an action movie, if this were a crime thriller, this would basically be a blackmail scene. We're seeing Pacey attempt to blackmail Miss Jacobs by putting her in this terrible position where all the kids are filing in for their first period English Lit class. And why is there Pacey standing at their desk having a somewhat hushed conversation? But he's to your point, it's almost like he's like, you have more to lose here than I do. So I don't really give a fuck if people find out about what happened because I know it's going to damage you. It just feels like we talked quite a bit about this last episode, but it just feels like they want us to hate Pacey.
Mal: Yeah.
James: There is nothing redemptive here. And his behavior in the entire episode is just like, you are a bad dude. I'm sorry.
Mal: Yeah. It's just like, why use this plotline to make us hate Pacey? And I kind of remember it was 96, 97. There was that famous case of the teacher who fell in love with her student. Do you guys remember that?
Cody: Oh, that was huge.
Mal: Yeah, it was huge. So I'm just wondering if that was kind of, I don't know, like something.
Cody: That was a part of public consciousness.
Mal: And we want to use it.
Cody: Yeah.
James: And like, we kind of discussed last episode. There are no accidents with Kevin Williamson. He is too self aware. He is too intelligent for that. So I bet you're right. I kind of forgot about that. I bet you're right. I bet he read that. He saw that and then he kind of was like, well, that would be an interesting wrinkle to add into this plot line and not to spoil it too much, but it feels like that shoe fits what we're seeing quite well based off of our later scene that we have towards the end of this episode.
Mal: Also have a fashion note, no shade to, like, sheer blouses. I think that's cool. But don't schools have really strict dress codes for teachers because you can see her bra? Not in the 90s, baby. I don't know. I thought that was interesting.
James: I found it interesting not to step away from that. Sorry. I found it interesting that at the end of that episode. Sorry. At the end of that scene, I found myself feeling bad for Miss Jacobs and I can't help but ask myself, why do I feel bad for this pedophile? Both of them are in the wrong both people here, right? Yeah. Pacey should not be doing what he's doing. Ms. Jacobs should definitely not be doing what she's doing. But because Pacey is such a smarmy little fucker and because he's essentially black what I'm interpreting as blackmailing her here. I just felt bad for her.
Cody: Why do I feel bad for her?
Mal: She's very uncomfortable about it. You can tell.
Cody: Yeah. I think it's very fair to he's.
Mal: Pressuring her to talk about it in front of the students.
Cody: Uh.
Mal: I think that's why you feel bad. We feel bad for her because she didn't want this to happen. She did.
James: Like we said, she goes into the movie store. She knows she's flirting with a teenage boy. She knows that this is a small town. And even if she doesn't know that he's in her class, she knows that likely he goes to high school here. So she knows what she's doing by kissing him at the end of the first episode. I would say she admits by nature of having that action that this is what she wanted and now we're feeling bad for her. I don't know, maybe I'm an asshole, but I'm just like, I think we're.
Mal: Supposed to feel all those things.
Cody: Totally. yeah. The way I view it and it kind of goes along how we discussed that all of these characters are from different mediums and they're all pulled into this universe because Dawson's in his one little story about the emerging teen to adulthood. But Pacey is in this other universe and this universe makes me think of something like The Sopranos. Like if you watch something like The Sopranos, Tony Soprano is a horrible human being, but he is the protagonist. But that doesn't like, you feel bad when bad things happen to Tony, but he's still an evil character. And that's a fair thing to put with Ms. Jacobs. She's a really bad person for what she is doing. She is taking advantage of a kid, but that kid is also being a piece of shit to her and making her really uncomfortable. And again, I think this plotline would be more natural in a show like The Sopranos. Like a dark drama. It doesn't even have to be gritty, but something that's a little more serious and has more nuance. But the fact that this plotline is happening simultaneously with a teen, like they won't, they kind of show is really jarring and it pulls me out. And again, I really liked this episode. But every single time Pacey and Ms. Jacobs, they're plot line. This B story is happening. I'm instantly pulled out and grossed out and it's just so jarring. It does not work for me. Also, I really don't like the way that Pacey creepy whispers everything that he says.
James: Good morning, Ms. Jacobs. Your tongue was in my mouth.
Cody: i do not like it.
Stella: I wonder if what you said about that kind of story happening in the 90s, if that does play a part to them writing about this. But I was just trying to imagine if this kind of plot line was introduced in a TV show like now currently how that would be received. Like it just seems so bizarre. Kind of like what Cody was saying was just the juxtaposition of this sweet teenage high school story and it's like, Whoa, this is incredibly out on leftfield. Yeah.
Cody: Well, from here we move on back to the suite and it's a high school story. And we're in the cafeteria where Dos tells the gang they're going to be having to shoot all weekend if they want to meet the festival deadline in a few weeks. And we finally get some resolution to the kiss issue where we can have Joey's character being killed and replaced by a new character played by Jen.
Mal: Yes. I found it interesting that he tells Joey that she's going to now be back behind the camera with him. So he's basically putting her in the maybe friend zone or something. And now Jen's the fantasy Jen is.
James: Yeah, but at the same time, sorry, he's putting her in the friend zone. But we've got these loaded statements, these layered statements that have multiple meanings. Yes, she is where she belongs because she is a better writer. She's got film sense. She's got this. But the way she interprets it, where I belong next to you. So it continues. This will they, won't they? This tension that is constantly creeping in on all sides between Dawson and Joey yet again, it's just like, God, the show is written so well.
Mal: Yeah, a lot of good lines here too, in this moment.
Cody: Joey major revelations.
Mal: Yeah.
Cody: Love that.
Mal: I'm not engorged with this either. Okay.
Cody: It's such a Pacey line.
James: Why? It's like they had a quota that they had to meet for hyper sexualized dialogue hits again. I know we've said this a million times in the first episode. Nobody talks like that.
Mal: I hooked up the actual definition cause to swell with blood water or another fluid. I'm not swelled with this. It just doesn't make sense. I don't understand that word choice.
James: Well, I think part of the whole crux of this episode, as we'll get into later on with a specific scene, is hormones and puberty. Right. I think that's kind of like the analogy or the metaphor of the film that Dawson is shooting. But that is also potentially what we're seeing with Pacey here. Why is everything so heightened? Why is everything so sexual? Well, because he is a young boy on the verge of manhood. He's going through puberty right now. He is just coursing with testosterone and other hormones. And that is exactly the type of example that I would expect from or the type of language that I would expect from somebody who is going through puberty at that point in time.
Cody: I find it so frustrating that all of the things that I did not like from the pilot episode have been wrapped up into Pacey as a character.
James: Yeah. It's like they were like, okay, all this shit sucks. He's a horrible person. But what if we kept it? What if we really leaned in?
Cody: Yes. And the world is still pretty sexualized from the pilot. I think they toned it down a little bit, which is, thank God. But still, of course, Pacey is the one to be like, I'm Super, not engorged. Like, why are you still fucking talking about this? It's so disgusting. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it.
Mal: Cody, do you want to talk about the film references in this scene?
Cody: no.
Mal: Psycho, Barrymore and Scream.
Cody: Yeah. I think it's pretty fun that Kevin Williamson is giving a nod to himself and, like, the major criticism that the Drew Barrymore thing was just to rip off of Psycho. I think the fake out with Janet Lee is, like one of the world's favorite fake outs because we thought she was the star. But I remember I was pretty young when Scream came out. But the marketing for Scream is brilliant because I remember Drew Barrymore being front and center on the posters before the movie came out. Then they replaced it with Nev Campbell later. But that was the best. And when I first saw Scream, I could not believe it when Drew Barrymore was killed within the first five minutes. Amazing. But yeah, I just love Kevin Williamson giving a nod to himself. i thought that was pretty funny.
James: I thought it was a great thing to do. And I also kind of loved that he was self deprecating about it.
Cody: Right?
James: Like, he's not shitting on other movies. He's not shitting on Janet Lee or Psycho or anything. He's not shitting on some other horror slasher movie. He's only shitting on his own movie, Scream. I thought that was a nice touch. And I bet it's the kind of thing that, like I said, I had no idea that Kevin Williamson had any affiliation to Dawson's Creek. So if I were watching this after I had a fandom of Screaming and saw that line, didn't know Kevin Williams and be like, what the fuck? Why? But it's cute. I don't know. It's kind of cute that he's like that.
Cody: Also, I just want to touch on the fact that Dawson, like, when they come to this realization where they should introduce a new character of Jen, and he says it fits right in line with the tone of the piece, which it does not. And when I was first watching this episode, I was like, Dawson, you are bonkers. Like, it completely negates the themes of your movie. If it's about the monster that falls in love with the woman, but he does all the stuff. But then later we find out, like, oh, this is allegory for himself and he's replacing the person. It does fit in right with the piece. Dawson, Kevin Williamson writing yourself into the script, the metaness of all of it is pretty good.
James: Yeah. This is where again, we have all these loaded statements. We've got so much that's going on that perpetuates this, will they? Won't they? If this was all written for him to write himself as the monster falling in love with the girl of his dreams, the girl of his dreams is Joey.
Cody: Yeah.
James: So then are we supposed to assume that he did have these strong emotions for Joey that he didn't quite understand yet? Because if so, then the whole pilot episodes opening scene makes no fucking sense because he's basically like, no, me with sex with you. No way. So it's very interesting.
Cody: Yeah. I don't really know if he's aware that he's in love with Joey or like, if he is aware of it, that it's so buried beneath him that he can't even admit it, which I mean, again, we also talked about how this could be a queer allegory for Kevin Williamson himself. And if Joey was a boy that Kevin was in love with and they were friends and you didn't know really how to deal with these emotions, then that would make sense. But for this relationship, how it is right now, it just seems strange. Are we to assume that he has never had a crush on a girl up until this point? Is Jen supposed to be the first person Katie Kirk? Katie Kirk. That's right.
Mal: Yeah.
Cody: I just don't really understand his relationship with women if he's never had a crush on anyone up until this point, except for Katie Kirk. And then Jen is the first human being that's in his life that's a tangible person that he could possibly date. I don't know.
Mal: I don't know. I think there's a little glimpse later of him maybe feeling something for Joey at the dance, but we can talk about that later.
Cody: Yeah. But first we have to get back to Ms. Jacob's English lit class where they're talking about Weathering Heights, and she just used a way to say that. I'm sorry, Pacey, we cannot be boyfriend and girlfriend in front of this town of 20.
James: Yeah. Okay.
Mal: Has anyone seen Red Weathering Heights? no, it's not okay. Me neither.
Cody: My Wikipedia and I still didn't really see how any of this conversation could work.
James: Right. I mean, I've only seen it as a book that is discussed. I've never read it. I have no idea, even remote idea about what it is about. But I thought that this was a very interesting scene because it gives us so much explanation as to who Miss Jacobs is. Right. Her reasoning for why this relationship will never work out between Heath, Cliff and Catherine, that's what they're discussing. These characters from this book is that they never belong together. That Heathcliff is in the prime of his life and has so much to live for. Essentially, she says he's a pretty all right guy, but that Catherine is essentially a mess and that Heath Cliff doesn't have time for a whimpering, mentally unstable wet rags to extrapolate this. That what she's doing. Just like you said, Cody is explaining to Pacey why this will never work out. Pacey is Heathcliffe. He's a pretty all right guy who's got much more to live for, which I don't know if that's true and that she is essentially a mess in a mentally unstable wet rag.
Mal: It could not have been in the book. She's making that line up, right?
Cody: Oh, she's talking about herself.
Mal: That's her. Yeah.
Cody: In the book, the character, I mean, dies in childbirth. And I think there's a lot of drama with Cassie's character, but who is a total mess in that book. But I thought she was making it so much about her that the entire class would recognize what she's talking about.
Mal: Well, you can tell their reaction was.
James: Like, yeah, everybody in the classroom is just kind of like, wait, Ms. Jacobs, excuse me, can we talk about the book now?
Cody: also, earlier, we're talking about we're getting a little bit more of Nelly. And in this scene, I thought it was really interesting that she was the first person to raise her hand. She's like the Hermione Granger of this high school, which I would not expect because in the pilot, she's just like, I just want a party. She's extremely intelligent and wants to talk about reference.
James: Yeah.
Mal: Have you seen Clues?
Cody: I haven't watched Clueless in maybe 15 years.
Mal: Oh, you must watch it.
James: Oh, I've seen it before. It's a very long time doing indoor Patreon.
Mal: She's very intelligent, but she comes off as kind of. Yeah, just like Nelly.
Cody: Oh, yes. Okay. I thought you were going to say, like, oh, weathering heights, the huge plot points.
Mal: No, the point about Nellie being.
Cody: Yeah, I got you.
James: So back to why am I feeling bad for this character? This scene really cements those feelings for me. If that's what she thinks of herself, that she is a mess. She's a mentally unstable wet rag. She hates herself. That's what we're supposed to get from this. Ms. Jacobs hates herself. And I can see if you hate yourself, you make all sorts of horrible decisions. I've been in that position where I am like, God, I am not worthy of this. I'm not worthy of that. So I'm going to act to what I believe I deserve. And when I kind of contextualize her character in that way, suddenly I get an explanation for why she would do something so disgusting, so despicable, because she fucking hates herself. And now I'm like, man, I want redemption for her. And unfortunately, we don't get it. This episode. And I'm kind of worried that, like I said, there are no accidents. Kevin Williamson knows what he's doing.
James: He'S.
James: The God that I don't believe in. But I'm worried that we're just going to continue to get this kind of, like, feel bad for her, feel bad for Pacey. We're always going to teeter closer to that line of like, yes, this is wrong, but we can't resist it. But I don't know. I like what they're doing. It's a step in the right direction, but I'm still like, every time it comes up, I'm just like, can we stop? Can we get away from this? Is there nothing else that we could have talked about? Is there no other way to explore the ideas of self hatred and the destructive behaviors that that creates? she could have just been an alcoholic that drinks on the job.
Cody: Totally. Right?
James: Yeah.
Cody: And again, it's okay to understand that hating a character and feeling bad for them are not mutually exclusive. It's just this whole plot line is just from something that is not cool to be in this show. That's the problem. And it's just far too jarring and disgusting. I don't like it. But finally, we get to go to Mr. Gold's classroom. okay, so it's revealed that the film class is literally making a film for the Boston Film Festival. And that's the same program that Dawson is trying to get his work entered into. It seems like the class has written a script and it's already been storyboarded. And the film is autobiographical of Cliffs High School football experience.
James: helmets of glory. Helmets of glory. Okay, so a couple of questions that I have here. The teacher, Mr. Gold, describes this. Dawson immediately jumps in. Right. What's he supposed to do? Be quiet, sit in the back of the class and not participate. What did he do? Immediately? Ask a question and try to participate. All right, Dawson off to a really bad start. Sorry, bud. So Mr. Gold responds, it's a junior level competition. why is he trying to enter his film into this? Doesn't he know it's a junior level competition or is Mr. Gold lying to him?
Mal: Good point.
Cody: I'm not following. You say that again.
James: So Dawson's trying to enter his film into the same film festival, right? This is what he's trying to do. But Mr. gold tells him it's a junior level competition. So therefore wouldn't he be excluded from this because he is a sophomore by his own admission?
Mal: Maybe he's a junior in the sense of not like high school grades.
Cody: Yes, that's how I viewed it. Yeah, it wasn't like class specific. These are for young people.
James: Okay, I get it. See, I tied it immediately back to last episode, which is the junior level class.
Mal: Also on that note, Nelly is in this class, which is a junior level class. She's also in the English class, which is presumably sophomores. So you would think that sophomores unless they're mixed. Well, she's in high school.
James: I don't know if we follow this line that she's the son of a wealthy businessman in town and they're both immortal vampires. Maybe they have some kind of leverage over Mr. Gold. And maybe Mr. Gold is a vampire.
Cody: Yes. I wonder if we're going to get a Twilight story mixed up. Oh, you know what we didn't talk about last episode is that Kevin Williamson is the one that ended up writing The Vampire Diaries for the CW.
James: So this could be a prequel. More ammunition that Nellie and her dad are immortal vampires from Little House on the Prairie.
Cody: I'd love to see it.
Mal: I have some notes about Cliff.
James: Okay.
Cody: I'd love to hear what you talk.
Mal: About the actor who plays him.
Cody: Okay.
Mal: Scott Foley, he was in Felicity at the same time, 98. He played a main character and I guess he was also in screen three. But do any of you have a guess as to what his age is right now?
Stella: I looked at it right now.
Mal: No, not right now. Sorry. In this episode, I'm going to say.
James: Okay, so he's supposed to be 16 years old, right? Because they're a year senior. He looks like he is 37.
Cody: I'm going to say 31.
Mal: He is 26. And at the same time he was playing his character in Felicity is a College student. So he was supposed to be playing like between a 17 and 20 year old in either of these shows while he was 26.
Cody: I love TV.
James: Yes. It's great to see these super accurate representations of what, 15 and 16 year olds. Isn't that what you guys look like when you were in high school?
Mal: He looks older. Like why?
James: There's not a single person who has acne. Everybody looks great.
Cody: I talked about earlier, I think Cliff is in the right. I think his movie speak on that.
James: What is it about helmets of Glory? Okay, so here's what I wrote. Cliff is treating this like he survived war. Cody, what is it for you that you feel like that Cliff is in the right here?
Cody: Cliff is the right here because his movie actually has stakes. You know who the hero is. You know, like everyone that's watching knows what football is. There's a clear story and there's a complication that is clear to the audience. the star quarterback, his arm is hurt and how is he going to play in the big game? so at least, like when I see that versus Dawson's movie where he's going in for this new twist where the love interest is being murdered and being replaced with the cousin that the creature is supposed to fall in love with, when I think of those two movies and just those two movies in comparison, I go, yeah, I'm going to go with the football movie, although it's not really my cup of tea. I'm going to go with a football movie that actually has steaks you're like. I wonder how this quarterback is going to play this football game. Not that it sounds good. I just think it sounds a lot.
Mal: Better than Dawson's movie at this time. Were there any big sports movies that came out? Remember The Titans?
Cody: That might have been a little later. I think that was 2000.
James: Well, so I was about to say, I think that Cliff went on to write the show Friday Night Lights because he's basically describing the pilot episode of Friday Night Lights.
Cody: So we move into the hallway of the high school where Dawson tells Joey about Cliff's film is a glory, and Jen gets asked out by Cliff, which is the last thing that Dawson needs in his life.
James: Yeah. My big issue with this. Okay, it's not an issue, but my thought here is, okay, so after everything happens, right, we have this whole discussion. We can talk about that in a second. We see Cliff and Jen talked. When Cliff and Jen break their conversation and Jen walks away, she does not acknowledge them at all.
Stella: I thought that was so weird. Well, they all sat at lunch together at the same time.
James: Yeah.
Cody: Very odd.
Stella: Yes. And then for her to just completely ignore them.
Cody: Yeah, it is weird. And it's not brought up later in the show. You'd think that would be a plot point, that it would be like, hey, that was really weird at high school today. Why would you call it high school? Well, they all sound like data, right? Today at high school, I was very concerned about your activity, your lack of.
James: Acknowledgement of my presence. Yeah.
Cody: but they never talk about it again. So I just think it was just a weird day on set. And also, I want to come back to why I'm team Cliff. I'm team Cliff for this entire show, not just his movie. I think Cliff is a nice guy because he didn't come in too hot with Jen. He was being a genuinely nice guy. He was like, yeah, hey, if you want to come to dance and meet some people, because I know what it's like to be new at a school and blah, blah, blah.
James: Yeah. Let's look at the direct. Like, I'm trying to think of the word. But in the show 13 Reasons Why. I don't know if any of you have seen this is another teen drama show that's on Netflix. The Jock character who steals away the main characters love interest in that show is depicted as a violent rapist. So that is the way that we would explore that concept in today's drama. But they give Cliff like, he gets like, the Bachelor edit in Bachelor and Bachelorette. Right. They make him look so good. Sure. He's being like, you could say kind of pushy in the sense that he's like, yeah, let me just show you around. Really. What he's trying to do is get closer to her romantically. He's not necessarily speaking his true intentions here. He is kind of caging it just a bit. But he's doing it in a nice way. He's not being pushy. He's giving her the opportunity to be like, no, I'm not really into it. He's not being too presumptuous. What did Stella Mal, what did you both think of that? My read was like, oh, okay. He's not actually that bad of a guy.
Mal: I agree. I don't think he's not being pushy.
Stella: Or.
Mal: Making her feel uncomfortable. He's just like, hey, I understand how it is to be new kid, right? I don't know.
James: Stella, would you say yes to him?
Stella: Yeah, I would say yes to him. Absolutely.
James: Because of his chest measurements and that hair.
Stella: He's got great ideas.
Cody: He did have again, I just love that the ball is in her court. He wasn't Chevy about it. He was just like, yeah, if you want it's cool. He's not making his romantic intentions like two known, but I do like that. He was just like, yeah, whatever. Just let me know.
Mal: He just seems chill.
James: Yeah, everybody just wants to Netflix and chill.
Cody: Correct me if I'm wrong. Is this the first instance where we learned that everything in New York is very fast? Because that gets brought up 2000 times in this episode?
James: Yeah, they moved fast in the first.
Mal: Time, but Joey brings it up a lot in this episode.
Cody: Oh, God.
James: And they moved forward in the opening scene. That's where they kind of said that, like, have you kissed your love interest yet or whatever? You got to move fast because she's going to move on. And then this is where we get that evidence. Yes, she's moving faster. She's going for the person who's expressing his interest, and you're just sitting here watching with your tail between your legs. How does that feel?
Cody: I just don't really understand the association with New York with speed.
Mal: Yeah. Everyone's getting somewhere. Business, big city, fast paced place.
Cody: Oh, no, I got the association that they are doing, and I've heard the phrase, like, hey, speed in New York.
James: Walking here.
Cody: Yeah. Hey, I'm walking here, which I've been to New York, and everyone says that, but I don't know, I feel like they were laying on thick. Yeah. Okay. This felt like a Chapstick commercial. We're going to get there. But this also felt like a don't come to New York commercial. Like, maybe everyone from New York was like, we're sick of people coming to New York. We're going to make an episode of a teen drama show where we're going to say that New York is too fast. Do not come here. It's too fast. Please do not come here too fast. Everything's really fast. Please, God, do not come to New York.
Mal: I think, though, it does. It all ties in when Jen finally mentions that about herself.
Cody: Yes, we'll get there. Yeah, that was a great scene.
James: Speaking of Chapstick, it's time for us to take our very first break here. So we'll see you on the other side.
Cody: All right. So now we finally move into the peak of this episode. This is where I felt as though we no longer have to watch the show. It will never get better than what we're about to see. And we could honestly probably make this entire podcast two episodes because what more could we ever talk about? Dawson gets kissing advice and lessons from Mr. Manmade dad using Joey's severed mannequin head as practice. i don't even know where to start. I mean, there's the weirdness between him kissing a mannequin head. There's the weirdness of dad giving sexy lessons. I mean, where do you even the.
Mal: First thing before that? Yes, the camcorder asking about the camcorder.
Stella: Dawson comes in and it's like, hey, dad, have you seen my camcorder? And dad was like, yeah, maybe check my bedside table. But take that tape out.
James: Why?
Mal: So why they're so rich? Why don't they have their own camcorder.
James: Specific for sex films? Yes.
Mal: Why are they using their sons? It's his camcorder, right. Because he says, that my camcorder to record.
James: But is this like, your niece or nephew who's like, well, you're playing my game, Boy.
Cody: Technically not your right.
Mal: I thought that was interesting.
James: I agree. They are like the wealthiest family outside of the immortal vampires. Yet they can only own one. What is it called?
Cody: Camera camcorder.
James: One camcorder.
Cody: They were ever going to see Nelly's house, and it's like an old.
James: Victoria and also Casey's house.
Mal: We've never seen that one yet.
Stella: I bet there will be a big party at Nellie's house.
Mal: Oh, I bet, yes.
Stella: Okay. But what made me laugh the hardest, I think out of anything in this.
Mal: Episode was in this scene or in this episode.
Stella: In this episode.
Mal: Okay.
Stella: His dad saying that comment inferring that he and his mom were making sexy time porn videos. And Dawson did not even flinch. They just went right past it. And he was just like, okay, I think you could get arrested for that in some States. I was just like, what?
Mal: Okay, are there States where you.
James: Can get arrested for making sex tapes?
Cody: That was my question.
Mal: My question, too.
Cody: Yeah, for making your own and Dawson's reaction. It's so funny because he has such a childlike reaction to his parents showing any affection with each other. He's like, oh, God, guys, get a room. It sounds like a ten year old. But then here when his parents were like, yeah, we film ourselves having sex every day. Dawson's like, okay, cool. So do you know where it is?
James: Can you teach me about the mechanics of kissing?
Cody: Yes, uh.
James: I get that. I am not Dawson, nor do I live in the Manmade household. But I would never go to my parents for kissing advice.
Mal: I was going to ask that. Did any of you guys ask your dad for health?
James: No.
Mal: Technique? Like, hell no. Just no.
Cody: Let me think about it. I got so much advice about car, how to drive a car. My dad helped me out with that. My dad taught me about baseball. That was really cool. Yeah. okay, so my first girlfriend. No, my dad denounced me kissing advice. It is the most disturbing, weirdest thing I've ever seen. Also, I want to talk about my favorite TV dad, trope is when they're going into a serious conversation. This is all TV dads. They take off an article of clothing before getting serious. I don't know what. What is it? Did he take off?
James: He took off his glasses. Sorry. We brushed over one thing. He's working on his underwater themed restaurant.
Cody: I'm so glad this carried over.
Mal: Yeah, it's kind of in the background.
Stella: I think I was laughing so hard about the Camcorder.
Mal: Also, the model head is sitting next to. So were they, like, crafting together?
Cody: Well, no.
James: He comes in carrying it and he's like, okay, when he walks into the scene and says, we're about to go shoot Joey's death scene or something like that.
Cody: This is one of the weirdest conversations between two characters I've ever seen in any show ever. And during this, you see there's, like a three storey model of the aquatic restaurant. It's enormous. And then on the table is a folded out blueprint. It's humongous. He is not joking. I thought, this is, like a weird fun. Hey, it's Sunday. I'm going to figure out some fun plants restaurant. No, I guess he's getting paid to make this restaurant.
Mal: Yeah, maybe I'm doubling down on my bed.
Cody: $200. That series ends with them at the aquatic themed restaurant.
James: So this is where we find out about Dawson's parents. The man meets first kiss. And I'm going to be trying out this chapstick move at some point in.
Mal: My life because next time we're on a boat. Yeah, I like that little nugget. They were on a boat. Water.
James: Yes. Good point. Life. Everything revolves around water. So Mr. Manmy describes their very first kiss and he basically says, we're on this fancy boat and your mom's lips were just so chapped and she needed some chapsticks. So I took out the chapstick and this is where he starts speaking, like, really sexy and it's really creepy to me, but he's like, he takes out this chapstick and he puts it on and then he kisses her and it was really smooth and just slid under her lips and the sensation was amazing and it was disgusting.
Stella: I was just going to say I couldn't believe just like, how obviously we've seen a lot of different sexual themes throughout the show, but this just felt so explicit. And I've never watched Sex in the City, but I was like, Is Sex in the City like that?
Cody: No, absolutely not.
James: And what's weird is they're talking about kissing and it feels like they're talking about a graphic depiction of, like, an orgy. We forgot to include one thing, which is that as this conversation is kicking off, Joey climbs up her personal ladder into Dawson's bedroom, and then just eavesdrops at the top of the stairs like a little spy catching this conversation. Just in time for that, you got to make your lip dance, which is.
Mal: The strangest way I've liked the dance episode.
James: I guess that is a very strange piece of advice that I've heard for kissing. I've never really received a lot of advice for kissing, but I've never heard, like, make your lip dance.
Cody: The advice doesn't make sense because he says you have to make it loose because then it's just going to have.
James: A mind of its own, which is what I want. I want to feel that lip going all over the place.
Mal: I do appreciate that Mr. Manmy gave him the all important note to close his eyes first.
Cody: Oh, yeah, that's fine.
James: I wish that he didn't, though, because I would have loved to see Dawson with his eyes wide open, kissing his mannequin, which is the next thing that we get. His dad forces him to kiss this mannequin while smiling. While smiling, and his dad is just.
Mal: Watching, like, yes, and then Joey is imagining it herself.
Stella: He's seriously getting turned.
Cody: Well, not to get too into how this was shot, but I love that she's in this Banister and the camera zooms in while she kneels down and she's looking through the bars of the Banister and it makes it look like she's in a prison. And we know that her character has been locked and put away in this little I don't want to call it the friend zone because that's in cell talk. But for her, I guess it is because Dawson really wants to be with Jenny's dad. But I love that we do get to Zoom in on her, and she just wishes it was her. She just wish she was that severed head.
James: She really does. She wants to be that mannequin so bad. She's like, telepathically receiving that kiss. Her eyes are closed, her lips are parted. She is just, like, so happy. And that happiness is all broken in just a moment. When Joey overhears Mrs. Leary, Mrs. Oman meet, arranging her twist with Bob for later that evening, which I'm glad that we get this because I think the big question that we had that we talked about at the end of the last episode is what is Joey going to do with this information? And we get the beginnings of that in this whole episode. We get the beginning of her action plan here, but she basically confronts Mrs. Leary and says, like, I know, yeah, ice cold.
Cody: I really thought this was going to be something they were going to carry out throughout the rest of the season. I was shocked that this is already happening in episode.
Mal: I remember in our first episode, we were talking about who she was going to tell first. She tells Mrs. Dawson Dawson herself, I.
Stella: Forget yeah, I thought that was very, quote, unquote, ballsy of Joey. I was pretty surprised.
Mal: Yeah. And this episode, she finds out a lot of things in secret. she's kind of watching from a distance in a lot of situations like this.
Stella: I don't know if this happens right after or right before Joey overhears that conversation, but Mr. Man me telling Dawson that the kiss was good with the mannequin.
Cody: Um.
Mal: Okay. Good job, son. You did it.
Cody: I could spend the rest of this episode just talking about the scene because it's so fucking weird. Like, the advice is so bad because Dawson is hearing, don't move your mouth. The mouth will move for you. So we're eventually going to see a scene where Dawson just puts his mouth against someone's mouth and he just doesn't move his face. Yeah. He's just going to expect that his lip does have a mind of it.
James: Exactly. You got a motorboat the other person's mouth.
Cody: Well, that's what he should be doing, but he's just going to be like.
Mal: I'm curious for people who watch this when it was on.
Cody: Right.
Mal: Do you take this advice and run? Was this helpful?
James: Who learned a kiss from Dawson?
Cody: Exactly.
James: And please let us know how that kiss went when you finally did it. And also, did anybody out there practice kissing on a mannequin head? If so, please let us know, because we're going to report you to the FBI because I think you have a problem.
Stella: I would also like to see if we can find any reviews of the show when it came out, because I would really love to see.
James: Um.
Cody: I'Ve seen the critical response. I've been trying really hard not to look up too much of the show because I don't want anything to be spoiled. But I have seen the critical reception was very positive when it came out.
James: Really?
Cody: Yeah. There were a few detractors, but they're from more like the Christians being like, this is too sexual for kids. But a lot of people thought that was a positive thing, probably because of, I don't know, TV being pretty conservative back then. So this probably felt very fresh. It still feels a little too fresh, but I don't know. Came in hot.
Stella: Yes. This whole scene made me very ecstatic about the show. It was a turning point for me. I was like, I just got really excited and was like, okay, let's.
Mal: See what happens next. Me too. Like, yelling at what?
Cody: It's so weird that I know we've talked about this show being kind of Lynchy in, but this is where this is not from planet Earth. This would never happen. And this is supposed to be, like, a sweet moment that brings a father.
James: And son together, but what fucking universe?
Cody: You know how complicated it is to make a TV show? Like, hundreds and hundreds of people are involved and not one person was like, no, dude, this does not work on any level.
Mal: I don't understand. Yes.
Cody: I wish we could find out if they really were intentional with this, if they did want it to be sweet, or if they were like, let's just throw a curveball in there. Like, let's throw something really weird in here. And they were self aware about it.
Mal: Yeah. Was it supposed to be a way to show young boys how to have a conversation with their dad or. I don't know. Is it supposed to be relatable?
Cody: Yeah. I associate these types of shows with being, like, an after school special where we're going to kind of, like, put a moral or a message in there for kids to learn a little bit about life. This did not feel like that is maybe. I mean, this could be a satire of those shows, and I'm just not that aware of that yet. I guess we'll see if we keep getting more scenes like them, but from there, should we move on to the next scene? That's where we finally get what we've all been waiting for. The death sequence of Joey's character in the film being shot. We see this mannequin head in action.
Stella: Sorry. Right away, we see Dawson fiddling with stuff, and I don't know what my first impression was. That looks like Dawson. I guess this is just about fashion. dawson looked like he was wearing a lab coat.
Mal: Jacqueline High.
Stella: Yeah, totally.
Cody: It's kind of like a Duster, right?
Stella: I don't know. I don't know what it was, but.
Mal: I actually don't remember what he was wearing in that scene.
Stella: It was like a big white oversized shirt, but it had pockets. I was like, oh, he looks like he works in a lab.
James: So this is also happening along the Creek. And this is the first time the Creek is featured in the episode as an actual location. I'm trying to track the Creek and what it is doing and what obviously, like, we've already talked about what it means, but. yeah. So in this death scene, we get one of the best murders shot on film probably ever. Right, Cody, would you agree?
Cody: It was pretty cinematic. And, I mean, like, yeah, it's trash and stuff, but at the same time, as someone that made a lot of movies with his friends when he was a boy, I would have killed to have a prop like this, like Kill Bill. The blood was squirting out of the neck. It was amazing. It looked really good, despite the fact that it's like a paper mache head.
James: Right. And then clearly, a mannequin. All that stuff aside, I, too, made movies with my friends. Check out Doom Pillow and Doom Pillow, too, if you can find them. But I would have been overjoyed if we managed to get a kill scene like that with squirting blood. I mean. Oh, my God. I was actually kind of, like, blown away. I thought it was very impressive that it happened. I really loved Joey's acting performance was incredible. The punch, she punches that goofy looking monster square in the noggin, and then she runs away, trips over nothing and goes, I loved it. It was great.
Cody: I love the use of any time that you can have characters fall behind a big thing and then use a dummy to pop back up to be replaced for your death is automatically an A plus in my book. You know what? I was wrong. This movie is going to be amazing. I don't know. I don't know. Sounds good. Also, just more evidence that Pacey is an incel school shooter. He says, you die so well to Joey and says, hey, Dawson, can we get another one of those? I so love that image. And that image is of Joey's head being ripped off and blood gushing out of her severed neck hole. So, yeah, he is a psychopath.
James: He's got issues. Yeah.
Cody: It's so weird. I know he's the beast story of this episode, but he was the B story of the first episode. We haven't really seen Pacey and another character have their own story that's outside of the teacher plot. And I want him to be a normal care.
Mal: Do you have any family members of his home? We know it's a mystery.
James: Mystery. Diverse sisters. Okay.
James: Right?
Cody: Oh, that's right.
Mal: They will meet his sisters.
Cody: Do you ever mention how many sisters he had?
Mal: No, just plural. I don't know, multiple.
James: Is this considered a separate scene?
Cody: Oh, yeah. When they move into the. What is that called when you have.
Mal: Like, a mud room?
Cody: Yeah. I genuinely thought this was a nice moment. For a second, I was scared that it was going to be like this hyper sexualized thing between Jen and Joey. But when Jen is helping Joey get it cleaned up, it was a nice moment.
Mal: Yeah. I thought this was one of the most relatable moments that I've seen so far in terms of just like everyone has self doubt and that kind of like negative self talk.
Cody: It was nice to see body positivity. And there are women that aren't using their bodies against each other, but they're talking about the things that bring them together and how insecurities are universal. And I thought that that was a really nice moment between them. A big part of when you get into kind of like film philosophy is the idea of the male gaze and how that controls women and the image of women and objectivity in cinema. Because if you look at, like, Alfred Hitchcock, for instance, all the women are objects in his movies, and he's very upfront about that. It's like they're not necessarily characters. I'm using this more for my narrative that I'm creating in this construct. And usually the sexualization of that is very big. And here I think it's pretty interesting because Kevin Williamson as a gay man is writing the scene and we are taken away from the lesbian eroticism that I think a straight man would have written into that more, but he didn't direct it. So I wonder if there's kind of like a push and pull between a straight man that's directing it. If he is straight, I don't know. Versus Kevin Williamson being gay and writing this as more of like a tender moment between two friends that cannot sexualize this conversation for a male audience that is watching. I don't know. But after the sequence, we finally go back to filming of Dawson's horror movie and they finally shoot the kissing scene between Pacey's character and Jen's new character. And wow, this kiss between Pacey and Jen kisses exactly. Like I imagine when we talked last time about how we thought Pacey might have sex and I described him as being like, Magurber. He kisses like Magura. It's disgusting. He's trying to bite off her head. When I first watched this and it was happening, I was like, oh, my God, this is disgusting. Because it is obviously Pacey being like, yeah, I'm going to move on it. But the reactions of Joey laughing it off and then Jen also laughing it off and making Dawson make it like they're all made to make Dawson look like the one who's freaking out about it.
Mal: So then I was like, and it's Jen. So he likes Jen.
Cody: Yeah, exactly. Jen definitely has more agency over the situation. I just wish we would have had a scene going in of Jenning like, yeah, Pacey, do whatever you want. I don't care. Because the first thing is just like, oh, this is very gross the way that this scene is handled. But at least she treats it like a joke because she probably thinks he's a Cretan too. I don't know.
James: Okay, so immediately after the kissing scene, basically we get the end of the shoot, right? Dawson proclaims that this kisses out, we're taking it, we're cutting it, and Joey and Jen are laughing about it. Pacey excuses himself because he's got to meet the woman of his dreams at the dance tonight. And then Dawson and Jen walk away and Dawson invites Jen to his Travolta movie night. Did anybody catch what movie they're going to be watching?
Mal: Yes. It's Saturday Night Fever, which was 1977, Grace 1978, and then Staying Alive, which is a sequel to Saturday Night, which is 1986. And that was directed by Sylvester Stall.
Cody: Yeah, I'm all for movie marathons, obviously, but that's 6 hours. Six plus hours. And what time is the movie marathon going to start? Because it's already like five or 06:00 then. Yeah, I don't know.
Mal: John Travolta Night of Interpretive Expression, which I just find it funny that John Travolta's movies were the choice for that. Not like some older classics with really great dancing. As a dancer myself, I'm like, I would not choose that. It would be my dance themed night.
Cody: You think you'd be like an American in Paris.
James: Exactly.
Mal: I was going to say American in Paris singing in the rain.
James: I don't know, silly, but Jen says no, she can't go because she's actually going to the dance tonight with Cliff.
Cody: And again, this is where I'm like, Cliff rules. Dawson sucks because Dawson's reaction to her saying that she's going to go with Cliff and he's like, what's a date? And she's like, not really. What is? He says, Color me confused. But that's the definition of a date, isn't it? The way that he talks about it is so mean and weird and possessive. It's so gross. Whereas Cliff was like, yeah, if you want to go, cool. If not, whatever, right?
James: And so what if it is a date? She is allowed to do that, isn't it? And if this is your way of expressing that you're interested in Jen, I'm sorry, but you're doing it wrong. like, it is not her fault that you didn't ask her until now. It is not your fault that you didn't express interest in her, even if you felt like you were expressing it nonverbally or that you were making it clearly you weren't.
Cody: I'm having trouble with Dawson being our protagonist because the way that they present Dawson is like everything he's doing is okay before this even happens. And they treat it almost like it's just kind of like a misconception rather than anything else. But I don't know. I just wish there was more of something to teach him that this is bad. Like, his behavior is bad because we'll get to it, but he kind of gets rewarded by his behavior at the end of the day for being persistent, which kind of sucks.
James: And as we're about to see in our next scene, which we might as well transition to, Joey kind of does try to teach him a little bit of a lesson here. Cody, go ahead and introduce her.
James: Yeah.
Cody: So we get back to his room and he's complaining about it, how Jen is going to be going to the dance with Cliff, and this is where he gets the bright idea to ambush them at the dance. Again, I don't really understand the logic here of I'm just angry. I guess that's all that's coming down. Like my brain is just turning into mashed potatoes because all. It just makes me so mad. That the plot line. I mean, yeah, Joey's right in the scene where he says, what did Cliff do that I didn't do? And she says, he asked her out. But the thing that just makes me mad is that how this all plays out and how his bad behavior is rewarded, even though he simultaneously, he gets to have his cake and eat it, too, because he learns his lesson as well. But we'll get there before we move on, though, when Joey is giving him flak for this whole situation, he says, I'm an artist torture as a prerequisite, but he's probably the most privileged white guy I've ever seen in my life. Like, who does he think he is to use?
Mal: I love the line I'm the one that should be kissing her. Joey not some J. Crew ad, which is so funny because all of them dressed like a J.
James: Crew ad.
Mal: Not Cliff.
Cody: He's not like alternative artist guy. They're all like rich white people. I don't understand it. Of course they all shop at J. Crew.
Stella: I also noted that Dawson is complaining to Joey about Jen, and he said something like, she was just so open about it about, like, going with Cliff.
Mal: Oh, yeah.
Stella: And I'm just like, one, that's good communication. And two, it's like she doesn't owe you anything.
Mal: Like, no.
Stella: Yeah, that just, like, made me pretty angry.
Cody: He has the audacity to call her thoughtless.
Stella: Yeah. And also, when he's getting ready, I feel like there was I can't remember what it was, but it made it sound like Dawson was inserting himself into a movie. Did he say something about how he has to go get the girl?
Mal: Yeah. Well, that might be a little later, but he talks about, I'm going to kiss the girl.
Stella: Yeah. And so it's just like there were multiple times throughout this episode where I noticed where it was like, Dawson, you very clearly see Dawson just thinking in movies and putting himself in a movie. And like, this is how it should be and this is how I need to talk and this is what I need to do.
James: Even in this scene, as he is having this moment where he's spinning out to Joey, he starts describing what is happening between Jen and Cliff as if it's a movie, basically stage direction that he is narrating. But it goes back to the argument that Joey and Dawson had at the Rialto in last episode. You're just harvesting things for your screenplay. Not everything is movies, but as we see, everything is movies for Dawson. He compares himself to Cliff and says that Cliff has nothing going on up here, pointing to his head that it's all head fumes and his script is ludicrous, as if that is the thing that Jen cares about. Clearly, it's not the only thing Jen cares about.
Cody: Yes. And again, not to be Team Cliff, but his script is not ludicrous. It's a story. It's a beginning, middle, and end. Like, we know what that is. Whereas his movie is garbage. Like, we know, oh, man, team Cliff, I'm getting a shirt. And by us, I mean me, because I'm the only one who's Team Cliff.
Stella: Here also going back just with this kind of theme of Dawson feeling like he can only think in movies. i noticed a few times where it seems like Joey is very aware of that and calls him out on it. And she like, eye rolls and is like, don't be so dramatic to Dawson. So I like that she sees it very clearly and calls him out on it, I think, a few times in this episode. Yes, they're good pair.
Mal: She also says, I don't think his cinematic prowess is the attraction.
Cody: Yeah, I don't know. I'm starting to think maybe the show is smarter than I'm letting on. And this really is about media literacy. And this is a commentary on that because we've all read those articles about how in the last 20 years how romantic comedies have made us expect more in relationships and how that's bad because people don't have media literacy to realize, like, oh, it's just a movie. So I think maybe the show is, like, trying to put that on Dawson as a character. This is what happens when people don't have media literacy and they take these things as facts and they expect these things to happen to people because of what they see in the movies.
James: But isn't it interesting that Dawson, who is arguably the most media literate person of the principal characters, seemingly has no media literacy at the same time because he's not able to separate film from real life?
Cody: Maybe he isn't media literate.
James: He's like the Knowitall kid who knows it. He's book smart, but he's not actually internalizing what he's learning.
Cody: Yeah, exactly. He's really good at knowing when things are entertaining and good, but there's no depth to it. I guess that's why he loves Steven Spielberg so much, because you can enjoy that without having to attach the depth to those kind of stories that Spielberg is wanting to tell.
Mal: Speaking of Spielberg, these movies that he's referencing are the first non Spielberg movies. Right. That we hear of the John Travolta movies. Finally, we're moving away from Spielberg.
Cody: No, because in the.
Mal: Are those Spielberg movies?
Cody: No. In the pilot, he had rented Swamp Thing and he had rented Creature From the Black. Okay.
Mal: Those were for his movie inspiration, but these are just for him to enjoy. And they're right.
Cody: Yeah. If he's going to enjoy a movie that's not Silver. Yeah, I guess. You're okay?
James: Yeah.
Cody: Look at that. But so here we have Joey walking down the stairs, and she witnesses Mrs. Manmeet heading out after a passionate kiss with Mr. Manmade. And Joey confronts her, knowing she's about to go meet with Soft Beebob.
Stella: I can't believe that Mrs. Manmade is like, hey, I want to talk to you about what happened this morning. And I was in shock. I don't know. Everything that's happened in the last whatever. 1015 minutes of this episode felt like a lot of content. And so I was like, wait, that was this morning?
James: Yeah.
Stella: I couldn't believe that.
Cody: I thought it was funny during the confrontation. I didn't really understand this, and maybe you all did, but Joey says that her dad had been cheating on her mom and then says, My mom got cancer and died. You do the math. Was she insinuating that the emotional stress of being cheated on gave her cancer?
Mal: No. I think it was the idea that life is short and this happened, and then my mom died. Like, you never know what could happen.
James: Okay. Interesting.
Cody: That makes so much what in the world.
Mal: But it was definitely a weird way to go about that. I kind of had to think about it for a second. I'm like, okay, what does she mean exactly here? But yeah, I think that's what it was.
Stella: That makes sense.
Mal: Yeah. I was also very confused.
Stella: I was like, what is this adding up to?
James: I don't understand. Yes.
Cody: Okay. That makes so much more sense. The way that she rattled it off made me feel like, wait, why are these things connected?
James: Then Dawson comes down the stairs, just as they're, like, getting to the real meat of this conversation just after basically Joey says, that right, that you do the math. And then Mrs. Leary says, Does Dawson know? And Dawson from up the stairs says, no, what? All gently and cheery. And yet again, this is just another moment of the show having great. Like, I would call great writing. You know, this is going to happen. But they subvert the expectation that we're expecting that this is going to be some tense, dramatic moment. And instead, what happens? Joey covers it up, says, oh, that you know how to dance. And now we have Joey just as dirty as Mrs. Leary. And I love that right now, Joey is hiding this from Dawson. When Dawson finally finds out about this, is he going to think back on this moment and be like, wait, you could have told me way back then, but you didn't tell me. What the fuck? I love it.
Cody: It's great. Yeah. I think. Although we know that they're a unit of friendship with the four of them, even though they're not really presenting it so much that way. But I'm excited for this to be a plot point that will split the group up because that has to happen eventually because we need to see them come back together. But to have this happen, I mean, I'm just so surprised that this is happening now. Like, this is really quick that we're jumping into this storyline to watch it evolve over the next few episodes or however long is going to be really interesting.
James: They knew they had to make their Mark quick. I feel like. But I know that everybody has some thoughts on the outfits for the dance that we're about to go to. The first one we see is Dawson's wonderful outfit. What do you guys think?
Mal: His vest?
James: Yeah.
Stella: It felt really funny to see, but it also was just like, wow, this.
Mal: Was the norm, the vest. I don't know.
Stella: To me, it felt really ninety s. I was like, that seems like maybe something common you would see at a dance or going like a nice dinner for a teenage boy. But I don't know.
Mal: Did John Travolta wear an open vest in the disco in Saturday Night Fever? Possibly.
Cody: Is that like his?
Stella: I don't know.
Mal: I feel like that could be. Maybe that was part of it. I don't know.
James: Was he wearing a Puka shell necklace?
Stella: Because I feel like he wears this Pearl. It's like a black Pearl necklace.
Mal: I noticed it throughout this episode. Yeah. I don't know if he wore it to the dance, too.
Cody: Yes. I wish he would show up at the dances, dress straight up, like a pirate.
Mal: Shirt, everything's begging.
Cody: I wrote that he looks like a Pilgrim version of Han Solo.
Mal: Totally. Yeah.
James: So what? I wasn't sure. Okay, so look, we get it. Dawson's fashion sense sucks nuts.
Cody: Uh.
James: I mean, sure, it's fine, but Joey, what is she wearing? She's wearing, like, a peasant shirt and white jeans.
Mal: Yeah, that's the thing. I love it. She just went to the dance with what she was wearing. Yeah, she didn't care, but it was just like. She didn't seem to care.
Stella: She wasn't like, oh, I'm going to.
Mal: Go home and get ready, too. I'll meet you there. That's cool.
James: I don't know.
Stella: I think her vibe is she just doesn't care about what people think of her.
Mal: Yes, I like that.
Stella: We can all aspire to be like, Joey.
James: Yes, we can. But I guess we should move on to the dance now.
Cody: Yeah.
James: The real meat and potatoes of this episode. This is what we've been building to all like 34 minutes up until this point in the episode's runtime.
Cody: Yeah, we're getting to the climax of the third act, so we didn't mention it in the last episode, but at the time, Savage Gardens Truly, Madly Deeply was number one at the Billboard 100. And this scene opens up with another Savage Garden track. So either this show was being run by Big Savage Garden or everyone in the United States at Savage Garden Fever.
Stella: Well, when it cut to the dance and the song was on, I just immediately felt overjoyed. I forgot how much I loved this song. It was such a big one for me, and I immediately paused the show and was like, okay, I'm adding this to my Spotify, and I am also going to like the Dawson's Creek soundtrack and see where that takes me.
James: I got to say, the music on this episode was way better than the music from the first episode, with one exception. We do miss Chumbawamba's Tub thumping. I wish that we got that one in this episode like we did in the last episode, but I thought this.
Mal: Made up for it, though.
James: Yeah, specifically this song. It really was a blast from the past. I blacked this out from my memory entirely. I really do feel like this episode and this show specifically is like opening the floodgates on how good and bad 90s music was because it's so distinct.
Cody: It was kind of like a disco resurgence in the late 90s that I really liked. I feel like. Well, not like maybe that's why he.
Mal: Was watching The Saturday Night Fever.
Cody: Maybe. I think Chicago house music was starting to get a little more mainstream. And I feel like we had this because there's definitely, like, a disco flavor to the song. And then there's also I'm trying to think of Ray of Light by Madonna. It was around this time. And that kind of has, like, a disco being to it.
James: Later this year, one of the biggest songs of the 90s in its entirety comes out, which is Do You Believe by Share. That comes out later this year. And speaking of disco resurgence, that song is straight out of disco from 19. 70. Except she slaps autotune on there. Right. So we are seeing the seeds of that disco resurgence right now.
Cody: And I love that song. We can talk about the underwater essence.
Mal: Yeah. So I love that the theme of this dance is under the sea, because, again, water. Also, when he says, I'm going to kiss the girl, that's a little Mermaid reference under the sea theme of the dance.
Cody: My God, I love that. It just made me think of the aquatic restaurant.
Mal: Yes. And the aquatic restaurant, but also water.
Cody: And just this show being so obsessed with movies and maybe think of the back to the future enchantment under the sea dance. That's what came to my mind. Yeah.
James: This is the scene where Jen and Cliff are flirting basically on the dance floor as we see the establishing shot of some incredible 90s dancing, including a man who has no bones in his skeleton. He's just violently flailing from side to side. But Jen tells Cliff that he's smooth but unassuming and asks if there's anything he's not good at, which she's landed on pretty thick. I feel like. Yeah, I like it.
James: Yeah.
James: Way to be assertive. I like it. She's definitely not talking to Dawson like this, but he says that the one thing he's not good at is dancing. And he calls himself rhythmically challenged.
Cody: Same as my guy.
James: Exactly. I was going to say I wrote in my notes I've never felt more seen in my life. That is me.
Cody: You're starting to get it.
Mal: I don't know if Scott Foley does himself feel like he's rhythmically challenged, but he did a really good job at doing the classic, like, 90s. No, just the funny, silly moves. I don't know. I just loved it. Yeah. Classic bad quote moves.
Cody: I don't know about you all, but I don't think Michelle Williams has good chemistry with any of the men. She doesn't have good chemistry with Cliff. I mean, she's really, like, sweet with Cliff and, like, flirty and stuff, but there's, like, no chemistry there. And also with Dawson later, I felt no chemistry, but I wonder why that is.
James: Is it intentional?
Stella: Yeah. My impression is that she's kind of holding back. I mean, I feel like that going back to that moment between her and Joey when she's helping Joey get cleaned up. Like, that felt like the most kind of genuine or like most personality we saw from Jen. That was one of very few interactions we've seen where it's like the two of them interacting. So maybe she feels unsafe with men or on men.
Cody: yeah, it's interesting because she must be closing herself off because they would have had to have been screen tests before the show was even shot to see if these characters have chemistry together. And right now, none of them do.
James: She seems so wooden.
Cody: Yeah, well, this quickly transitions to Pacey creepily cornering Miss Jacobs into a conversation that she does not want to have a part in. And again, this is just mirroring the scene beforehand where they're in front of people doing this. I just don't understand what is wrong with Pacey.
Stella: Yeah, he's like, so fearless. It's like, do you not care about the repercussions for you? Potentially.
James: I mean, fortunately, he's a white man.
Mal: He's just pressuring her so much.
James: It's interesting that we get Pacey objectifying, his object of desire, put quite literally and refusing to accept.
Cody: No.
James: Right. She's like, no, sorry, this is not the time for this conversation. We've already spoke about this. I'm leaving. And he's like, Would you like to date? Like, Dude, what is wrong with you?
Cody: Yeah, maybe this is smart and it is about people that are not media literate because this is clearly two characters, Dawson and Pacey, that objectify women and they're treating them as trophies. That's what this is about.
James: I'm entitled to your affection because I like you.
Cody: Yeah.
Stella: I just wonder. Like, I mean, at some point, we must grow to like Pacey. I would assume we can't hate him this whole show. So it's like, I'm curious to see how they make him redeemable or.
Mal: Yeah, so curious.
James: Well, again, Kevin Williamson is doing everything intentionally. So are we getting all of this front loaded hatred of Pacey? We're seeing all of this problematic behavior so that we get to come to Jesus moment. That is still my theory with Pacey that something is going to happen and he's going to do something to make us all say, oh, this is just a wall. This is just an act that he put up because he's actually insecure me. Woe is Pacey, but maybe not. Maybe I'm wrong.
Mal: I just want to learn more about what does his life look like? We know nothing.
Cody: What made him like this? Yeah, hopefully we find out. But, yeah. So we get in and Joey and Dawson arrived at the dance. And I loved this because when Joey is talking about Jen and Cliff and how Dawson needs to move in on them, she says, you better write something quick, because in some moral sectors, what they're doing is known as foreplay. And there's data from Star Trek and listeners out there or anyone that is interested. If you ever want to buy me a cameo of Brent Spiner, who played Data from Star Trek, and you can get them to say lines from Dawson's Creek, I will love you forever.
Stella: That's such a good idea.
Mal: Yeah.
Cody: But here we get to go into the dance choreography for them to get closer.
Mal: Yeah. Dawson asks if Joey dances. She said, she says she doesn't. This is all during a fun song. They start this conversation, and then he's like, kind of just makes her. Anyway, they start dancing, and then the song turns into a slow song. And as a dancer, I can say Dawson is actually a very good lead.
Cody: Oh, the choreography, too, is amazing.
Mal: It was great. and this is when they have their moment where they lock eyes and I think you kind of see both of them.
Cody: I thought it was so funny because Dawson is clearly leading and Joey is just getting Flug around, and he tells her, you're pretty good at this. But I thought it should have been the other Joey. Should have been like, yeah, when did.
Mal: You learn how to do this? No, being a good follow is a thing, so I can say that is accurate.
Cody: Okay, cool. I don't know anything about dancing.
Mal: Yeah. They briefly discuss the film class. Right, that they're in the same class. And then Jen says that Dawson is a very talented filmmaker. Says that to Cliff.
Cody: I don't know. I find Jen to be a really complicated character, and I don't know. Do you really think her intention was to kind of, like, make Dawson force him to break out of a shell and actually take action?
James: No, I think she's trying to smooth things over. I think she's basically being, like, courteous. Like, oh, do you know Dawson? Oh, yeah, we're in film together. He's a great filmmaker. You guys should hang out, that kind of thing.
Cody: Okay.
James: Yeah, that's how I read it. But I don't know.
Mal: Yes, I agree. I think she was trying to just make sure that nothing dramatic happened in that moment.
Cody: I'm making it too complicated in my head, but, like, everyone's playing 3D chess.
James: To your point, though, like, Jen does know that Dawson is upset that Jen is on this date in air quotes with Cliff at the school dance. And what we know about the scene later is that she is interested in Dawson. So maybe she is trying to get him to actually do something, actually express herself. I don't know. I would think if she was this is a pretty weak attempt at it. Like, oh, yeah, he's a good filmmaker.
Cody: Totally.
Mal: Yeah. The way she said it was just not. It didn't sound like flirty or anything like that. It just seemed like she was telling Cliff about Dawson. That's how it came off.
Cody: And not to jump ahead, like, when he does take action, it's disgusting and disturbing. So I wonder if that were the purpose that she was trying to get out of him to take some kind of action. That ain't it. So I wonder what would have been like the alternative.
Stella: I can't remember at what point Dawson, I think, had said this to Joey, like acknowledged. Or maybe Joey said it to Dawson. You've only known her for 2 seconds and he's aware of that. He's like, yeah, I've only known her for a little bit.
Cody: Yeah, that's the next scene. We should just get it done now because I think that's the best part of this whole episode. So Dawson and Joey are just sitting and watching Jen and Joe, the Cliff and his friends, which I also thought was like a nice touch. You're seeing his friend group and he's doing the same thing that Dawson did where it's like, oh, come into our friend group.
Mal: Yeah. I thought it was funny that Cliff, all the football players are wearing their Letterman jacket, but Cliff is not.
James: Oh, the quarterback amongst his friends, his.
Mal: Football friends is not wearing his Letterman's jacket.
James: Good eye.
Cody: I wonder if Plymouth becomes a part of the friends group later on.
Mal: I wonder. Yes. Well, yeah, Scott Foley was in Felicity, more like in a lot of that. So I don't know if he was in both. Oh, having to tell how long he's in Dawson's Creek, I wonder.
James: Yeah. This is where Dawson says that he likes Jen because she's like Joe.
Stella: Yes.
Mal: I have this.
Stella: I can read it if you want to read it. I paraphrase a little bit, but I feel that connection, that bond that says we are meant to be together. Something primal exists between us. That girl is a mystery to me, but I feel like I've known her my whole life. It's like the way I feel about you. I mean, she challenges me the way you do. She could be you. Except she's Jen.
James: Yeah.
James: This is one of those moments where I am like, Dawson is indefensible because he says the worst shit at the worst time.
Cody: Well, I think this is the light bulb moment of the entire episode where Joey compares him to the creature of his movie. And so that's where we're seeing the dichotomy between innocent versus not so innocent, these evil desires that he has. But I want to point out the fact that he describes Jen as being challenging just like Joey. But Joey is actually challenging because she's the one that has a lot of insight. she's known him forever and can say, like, you're doing the wrong thing. These are bad things. Whereas Jen, he hardly knows her for one. But also Jen. I think Jen was being nice when she said he's a really talented filmmaker giving him that compliment. But she doesn't really. I mean, she's just kind of like doing it for fun. And he's clearly not a great filmmaker. I don't have anything against Jenny. I think Jen is an interesting character so far, but she's not going to be the type of person that's going to give him the same kind of insight as Joey. So I don't know why he would ever say that Jen is challenging. She's not challenging at all.
Mal: Hard to get, maybe challenging.
Cody: She's the ultimate in cell girlfriend. He wants an anime girlfriend that is not challenging and just says yes to everything that he says. And for someone just to go, you're a talented filmmaker without, like, having any challenging, your insights is going to be the music to his ears. That's what he wants to hear. Dawson has to learn from this, and I think it's really important for this is where it becomes kind of like a good after school special. And a good lesson to learn is that and Dawson will look back on this when Dawson is a real person looking back in his life, he'll be embarrassed about this moment when he realizes that a partner isn't someone that just goes along with everything you say. A partner is someone that challenges you. And I think when he has that AHA moment with Joey and he'll be like, oh, wow, you were the person for me all along because you're the only person that I know that call me out on all of my shit and didn't let it fly. And I think that's why they will work as a couple later on if that is to happen. Or he gets an anime body pillow and marries.
James: But in the meantime, what we get is Joey reminding Dawson that the monster in his movie doesn't get the girl in the end. All right, fucker. You aren't going to get Jen. If you continue on like this, you're going to meet a bloody, violent death. And isn't that a good metaphor for what we're about to see in our very next scene?
Cody: Yeah, I just wanted to read that exchange verbatim because I loved the dialogue in this sequence and God, it was the best exchange. It was my favorite, except for all the dad kissing stuff. But Joey says, the creature doesn't get the girl. He dies a violent, bloody, horrible death. Rest in peace, Dawson. It was nice knowing you. And when Dawson says, Where are you going? She responds, I'm already dead, remember?
Mal: I loved her delivery. Her delivery was so good there.
James: That was just probably my favorite sequence in the entire episode. And it really made me think about the episode. It made me want to rewatch the whole thing and reanalyze what I missed with the shooting of the film. The way he delivers that whole idea that he has Joey's reaction to it, Jen's reaction to it, everything. It made me immediately want to go back and see it all now. Now that we see how Joey really feels about this. Oh, you killed me. I'm dead to you. Okay? Our relationship. I'm already able to process what this is all about even before you are. I think it's beautiful.
Cody: Now we get the most embarrassing scene.
James: Of the entire episode.
James: Okay.
Stella: But Dawson gets up and is like, It's time for a rewrite ass.
Cody: That's what I say before I transition to anything in real life. Yeah, I wanted to die during every second of this exchange with Cliff. And this is where we get the as we've been talking about the Object of Desire dialogue. it's just a trophy to Dawson. He doesn't really care about Jen as a human being.
Stella: When he comes up and he's like, Excuse me, I'd like to cut in. He looks so confident and proud. Like, it was like he was doing the right Noble thing. It really plays into his idea of this being a movie. I got to go get the girl. In his twisted concept of reality, wasn't.
Cody: There a name for it? It's like main character syndrome. I think people are starting to call people out on that in real life where people think that they're the hero of their own story when reality should always you should treat life as though you're the sidekick and always boost other people up in your life. But Dawson clearly thinks he's the night in shining armor here, right?
Mal: And he asks Cliff to Manly step aside so that he can have a moment with the object. but I love the object of my desire.
James: What I love with this whole exchange is he never once talks to Jen. He never once asked her, hey, Jen, can I have the next dance? Instead, he treats her just like we're saying, like an object. She's furniture in the room for him here. And all of this happens. As this argument continues to go on, we slowly see more and more people that are dancing around them just turn to watch. And by the end of the argument, it feels like every single person in the school is just there, glaring at the two of them, like, Whoa, what is happening here?
Cody: Yeah, I mean, I brought it Back to the Future earlier, and Cliff is not a BIFF tandem character. I know I'm team Cliff, but he has yet to do anything that's, like, evil. There's nothing sinister about him like the BIFF tannov Back to the Future. So when Doss is doing this, he's setting himself up to look like the biggest idiot in their 20 person school that features every person in the town.
James: Yeah, I think it's kind of interesting that we are supposed to hate Cliff for no other reason than his identity.
Mal: They're not doing much to make us hate him.
Cody: Yeah.
Mal: Even in that moment, he asked, Jen, Are you okay with this?
James: The only person that speaks in this entire exchange is Cliff.
Mal: Cliff.
Cody: Cliff. And Dawson started getting argumentative, which is, again, it makes sense for Cliff to be like, yeah, what the fuck is going on here? But yes, Jen rifley is just like, okay, bye. This sucks. and I'm with her, like, get out of there. And as much as I did like this episode, I really hated this transition because again, I feel like there's a lot of missing time. So Dawson, Joey and Pacey, they're walking home after the dance and Dawson is crushed. He's venting. He's pointing out that Joey was there for him and Pacey was in another world chasing the Mystery Woman. And my first question is, have they not established that the Mystery Woman?
Mal: Is Miss Jacobs amongst them? No, I don't think they have.
Stella: Oh, no, they haven't talked about it, but they were all at the movie theater and saw him go over there.
Mal: But I don't think they saw him because they were distracted with the whole.
Cody: With the hands, like, touching.
Mal: Yeah.
James: How would they completely miss.
Mal: I know. That's strange. Yeah. Well, it might explain why Joey thinks Pacey is so repelling if she knows that the Mystery Woman is that he's, like, trying to get with the teacher.
Cody: We skipped over it, but when they're done shooting for the day, the Mystery Woman topic was brought up and Joy is like, so who is this Mystery Woman, right.
Mal: Yeah.
Stella: It's weird because they knew that he got in a fight, right? Oh, yeah.
Mal: Because he had the black eye.
Stella: And they talked about how Pacey ruined the night. I thought in the last episode or.
Mal: No, no, I think it was about.
Cody: It was Jen thing. Like, I ruined the night. And I was like, no way. But in my mind, I would have thought it was such an awkward transition in that last episode for them to be away from the movie theater, because from my perspective, it was a small theater. And if you saw that was a big stir, even if you were having some weird hand touching, kind of like that was dramatic for them. And I know that's going to occupy a lot of space in your mind. But at the same time, if I saw two people fist fighting, that would immediately break any tension that I had.
Mal: I thought they ran out of the theater, though. Maybe it was after that, though, they would have seen it. I don't know.
James: You'll have to tune into our discussion of last week's episode to know our thoughts on that. But in this episode, this show definitely is a fan of these awkward transitions where there's just an unexplained amount of time that has elapsed between these different things, these different actions, these different events. And we are for no explainable reason now altogether.
Cody: Yeah.
James: They all just decided to leave at the same time, even though Joey left earlier than Dawson did. Dawson stays around to ask about for the stance, and we don't know what happens there. And we have no idea when Pacey leaves now they're just all together on the street.
Cody: Yeah. Especially because Joey, when she left, she was mad. Yes, super mad. So I just wish we had another transitional scene to see why did they all get together? And again, why is it now that they're having this conversation? Because this is the topic of the entire night. So why now? I don't know. It's really weird.
Mal: Why does Dawson blame Joey for letting him do that?
Cody: Why is it a human shield for him?
James: It's really especially when she tries to talk him out of it basically at every step of the way. Actually, Dawson, she did try to stop you multiple times. You just didn't listen.
Cody: This show should have been called Joey's Creek. I'm really sick and tired of Dawson being so not self aware. She gets the brunt of all of this.
Stella: Also, another thing I noticed at the beginning of the scene was I think Dawson refers to Pacey to Pacey as his nonexistent friend.
Cody: He's not wrong.
Mal: No, he's not.
Stella: I just thought that was funny because also earlier we were talking about why isn't Dawson talking to Paisley about how to kiss or whatever?
Mal: Yeah.
Stella: It does feel really weird. His lack of presence in the show and, I don't know, like, establishing the dynamics between these friends and him just.
Mal: Not being around feels they really have.
Cody: An episode where the four of them are just them. Like, maybe go to the beach for a day and fucking traffic.
Mal: Yeah.
Cody: Have a Seinfeld episode where they can't find their car in a parking garage. I just want to see them interact with only themselves. And that's the crux of everything.
James: Yes, but we don't get that. And instead of offering us a little bit of more time with Pacey for maybe to him to explain himself or have a moment of development, he's like, all right, kids, got to go, man Yana. And then just peels off. Okay, cool. See you.
Cody: which is, I don't know about you all, but that's how I leave every conversation. But finally, what we've all been waiting for is a big Chapstick decided to invest millions into having the greatest product placement sequence I've ever seen in a show. Mr. Manmade, if you could see it.
James: Now, I have a tube of Chapstick that is not Chapstick brand. They didn't pay us. Yeah.
Cody: Just side note, I just want to say, up until recently, I didn't know Chapstick was a brand. I thought kind of like Kleenex. You say Kleenex and tissue.
Mal: Correct term would be lip balm. And the brand is Chapstick, and they are everywhere.
Cody: Okay, so Mrs. Manmy comes home after being with Soft Bee Bob. And Mr. Manmade is still working on his aquatic themed restaurant. And they get into how she doesn't remember their first kiss, but he remembers it vividly and he's pretty offended. And it's all revealed to be a ruse for her to kiss him with the Chapstick on for the big reveal that she still loves him, but she doesn't.
James: So that's my question, I guess. Do we believe that this is a ruse, or did she get it wrong, not intentionally. And then she's like, oh, right, right.
Mal: Yeah. It's so hard to tell the way this is acted. I just cannot tell. I was like, does she know? Is she pretending she doesn't know and going through their few first dates or first few dates or.
Stella: I don't know.
Mal: What do you think?
Stella: Yeah, that was kind of the vibe that I got, that she was just pretending like she didn't remember it because obviously she would remember first.
Mal: I want to go through the dates that she talks about. Okay. So her first guess, which we think we don't know if it's a guess or not, is that they went to a movie called Ordinary People where Mary Tyler Moore is in this. Apparently I looked it up and she plays a quote, horrendous mother, which I feel like is how she views herself right now because of Joey's lecture to her. Possibly.
Cody: Sure. That's a really heavy movie.
Mal: Also, it's such a heavy movie for a first or second or third date.
James: As we find out.
Mal: Well, yeah, exactly. But if you read the description of that movie, like what?
Cody: Yes, that movie is really dark. And it made me think of the joke from Naked Gun where you see Leslie Nielsen and his love interest. They're walking away from a theater laughing, and it shows the marquee and it's platoon. I cannot believe that they went and saw that movie for a second.
Mal: Her second guess of a date was that they kissed at a stoplight. Who does a first kiss at a stoplight?
James: Oh, pretty romantic. What are the other dates?
Mal: i think then we get into so she turns away and then she has this sly smile where now we see. Did she know the whole time? Or she just now realizing she remembers, oh, she knew. Okay. And then she pulls out. And I love this close up because if you pause it, this is a brand new tube of chapstick. Never been used. It's like crisp on the outside. Like this is a brand new tube of chapstick that they used.
Stella: So if you didn't watch this episode, you see Mrs. Manmy, aka Mrs. Larry Dawson's mom, in the kitchen about to put the chapstick on her lips. And then it just does a quick Zoom close up on just the tube of chopstick.
Mal: Brand new tube.
James: Probably the most overt product placement I've seen in a long time.
Cody: I mean, it takes up the full frame. Yeah.
Mal: And it's like for a good solid.
Cody: Moment, we will include this screenshot into our Instagram.
Mal: We'll do that.
Cody: I'm trying to think of why have the scene at all. And it makes me think, like, are they trying to play out that she is still very much in love with Dawson's dad and soft Bee Bob? Are these relationships both at the same level? I don't know. Yes.
Mal: And in this moment, then they have a little slow dance and then you see her face and she looks like she feels super guilty. She has this look of guilt on her face. I think Joey's lecture went her head to her head.
James: And then I think you're right. We see that in that slow dancing scene, the guilt that's on her face. So we're seeing Mrs. Leary battle with the weight of her actions here a little bit. Maybe not enough to cut off the affair entirely, but a little bit also.
Cody: I laughed out loud at the diegetic music that they're listening to and slow dancing to the lyrics. There's never been anyone else for me but you. She just like so grim. But okay. So from here, we're back, baby. We're going in on it. We are back to this little harbor area where Miss Jacobs is standing in the exact same spot as she was in the pilot, waiting for Pacey to show up and have another confrontation. but yeah, they have a confrontation about we shouldn't be together because of our clear age difference in how illegal this is and how you are taking advantage of a child and. well, yeah, I mean, I'm sure everyone here is on the same page. This is disgusting and horrible and it was awful. I just hate that they're doubling down on their worst Bstory.
Stella: Yeah, I felt surprised. It seemed like throughout the episode, Ms. Jacobs was pretty adamant, like, we can't do this. This isn't happening. And then she has this whole speech where she says that they can't be together, all this stuff. And I really thought she was about to walk away. And I was like, all right, here we go. Okay.
Mal: Thank goodness.
Stella: And then Pacey grabs her and they embrace and kiss. Yes. At the same time. I was not surprised at all, but I was pretty convinced that Ms. Jacobs was going to take the high road there.
Cody: Yeah. Again, we're rewarding bad behavior. That seems like the theme of this episode a little bit. And I mean, like, what kind of lesson are you teaching viewers? If you're persistent, you can get what you want. It's just so frustrating. If this were an episodic show, if this was an X Files B story, this would not continue over to the next episode. But I'm just so worried that all we're going to get now for, let's say, like, four more episodes is this B story. So whenever we're not dealing with Dawson and the love stuff, it's just going to be Pacey and hurt. How long can this go on and just make it work? Especially after she really put herself out there with this speech. This was supposed to be the end all be all like, this is the big speech. This is the thing that ends at all. And it didn't. So what will it take for this to end? Is she going to get arrested?
James: It's going to have to be because I feel like. Because she did her best effort. In my opinion, that was her best effort. In this moment, we know that she's kind of a broken character, that she got some issues with herself and she doesn't try to kiss him. He being Pacey is who actually initiates the kiss and does everything. So it's going to require something beyond the two of them to break this apart, which is disgusting to me.
Cody: Yeah. I mean, so when she moves closer to him, the thing that does win her over is where do you get off on taking all the responsibility for this? Which for her is like, oh, you're right. We're both on the same level. We both chose to do this. But again, 15, your brain is not formed to make these kinds of decisions. And it's so bonkers to me that she, as an adult, as a 40 year old adult, hears that and goes, you're right. He's in on this, too. So this is fine. We're both in. And she even makes that reference of like, I want to save you ten years of therapy or whatever. So she's very aware of how wrong all of this is. Sucks. I hate this. I hate this so much.
James: I think we need to move on.
Cody: Because.
James: We'Ve talked this one to death.
Cody: Yeah, this sucks. Okay, so after this, we get back to Dawson, and they're still walking down the sidewalk. And he admits to Joey that he realizes that he is the monster from his movie, and he wishes life wasn't so heightened. and he tells her to keep him line down the road, even though, like, we've talked about this over and over again, she did try to keep them in line. And, well, Jen, we see her. And so that interrupts their conversation.
James: But so in this scene, we see Jen as Joey and Dawson are having their conversation about the night. And Jen, what is she doing buying saltwater Taffy from a candy vendor on the boardwalk who's got, like, a hot dog cart full of saltwater Taffy?
Stella: Man, question Mark question. Like a small town, too. It's like maybe like a big board off in Santa Cruz or something.
James: Midnight.
James: Exactly.
Stella: Town really late at night and there's salt water.
James: I love that little detail. I think that's fun. But I'm also like either this adult man who runs the saltwater Taffy car is so plugged into Cape sides comings and goings that he's like, all right, boys, got to go out for the Taffy cot tonight. It's the school dance. Or he is just, like, hurting for money and he doesn't have a place to go. He's just wandering around avoiding the eternal vampires. And this is his protection of selling caffeine.
Mal: We also get the sphincter line here.
Stella: Also, Dawson says about his relationship with Jen, it's officially over. And Joey says it never began.
Cody: Yeah, I love Joey.
James: He is the best.
Cody: The sphincter line is the best line of the episode. And I wonder if it was originally written. Like, you're such an asshole.
Mal: Yeah. Like, why sphincter?
James: Yeah.
Cody: W is like, you cannot say asshole. Like butthole. No, you can't say butthole. Can we use sphincter? Yeah, of course.
Mal: Also, there is a moment I think this is like, I think Katie Holmes screwed up a little here. She said when she said, because the remote on the rewind of life does not work, she like, laughed and was out of character for a second.
Stella: He also said, Can I bag on you? Do you know what that means?
Mal: Like, can I head out? I think Joey said that she's like, I'm in a bag.
James: I've never heard that used in that context.
Mal: I don't think I have either, but that's the only thing I can think of.
James: That's what it means by context. I think that's definitely what it means.
Cody: I've never heard that before. It's like, right now. I said, I'm going to drag it out.
Mal: Yeah.
Cody: Are we just making up? I mean, they could just be making up things to be like, maybe this will catch on. Alabama, dude.
Stella: I can't express how much I hate Dawson. He makes me want to vomit.
James: He's a shithead.
Stella: Yeah, he does so much.
Cody: Well, yeah, let's get into it. The scene is he approaches Jen and he tells her straight up like he doesn't want to be put in what the installs call the friend zone. And this is where Jen does admit to Dawson that she likes them and doesn't want to move too fast.
Mal: Also, the whole boy adventure moment.
Stella: Can we get that tattooed?
Cody: Yes.
James: So I'll get matching.
Mal: We need that on some T shirts or something.
Stella: Yeah. All of this was just so disgusting to me. Like, Jen, multiple times, I was like, what do I have to do? What do I need to do next week? Yeah, I think I was just kind of disappointed in Jen. Clearly, I'm not surprised that Jen is interested in Dawson, but it's like, really, after all the behavior that you've seen from him, you still want to try and make this happen? It seems like not a good choice.
James: And I think she's approaching it from the right angle. Why do you need to be defined right now? Why can't we just experience life and go on and see where this goes? Because like Joey said in an earlier scene, you've known me for 2 seconds. I am new to this town. You are literally the first person that I meet. You live next door to me. Can I not live my own life.
Mal: Through the music that they're dancing to? The title of the song is You Don't Know Me.
James: Yes.
Mal: And the version of the song in this moment is by Jan Arden, who was the. Yeah. If you listen to our first episode, who was the artist who wrote the original song? That was supposed to be the intro song of Dawson's Creek.
Cody: Yeah, but they bagged it exactly for Paula Cole.
James: Thanks, Paul. But it's nice to see that Jan Arden did get her Dawson's Creek payday. Regardless, I thought it was kind of a sweet moment to have the little dance sequence there. I couldn't help but feel like my heart was warmed in that moment. I mean, that was exactly what they were trying to get me to feel. But I also couldn't help but be distracted by the couple that was on the boat.
Mal: Yeah. I feel like they were just like, there. And the camera was like, oh, let's get this shot at these random people. That's what it felt like to me. Like these people who aren't even extra, they're just on a boat having wine.
James: Yeah. But instead of all that, we do get the little dance scene.
Stella: I was just having a thought, like, sure, it's sweet that Dawson asked for a kissing advice from his father, but what about just, like, general relationship advice and respecting women not initials to start.
James: yeah. And I think the saddest point of this whole episode is when we pan back from this dance that's happening and just how like, well, we just pan back from the dance and we see Joey watching from behind a street lamp. were you just, like, trying to make yourself small behind that?
James: Yeah.
Mal: She didn't actually bag out after all.
Cody: Oh, she just bagged me.
James: but I have a piece of evidence that I want to enter into the court here that supports my initial stance that I believe that Dawson is a queer character. Because as this slow dance is happening, we get a Zoom in after that dialogue that I just read. The Sea of Kisses is just the end result. And Jen actually looks really happy. She's like, it kind of harkens back to the dance that we saw with the leeries where Mr. Leary looked happy and Mrs. Leary looked guilty. In this case, Jen looks happy that she's getting this dance with Dawson, and Dawson looks petrified. I promise you just go back and watch this. Interesting. He has a blank expression on his face. His eyes are wide, and he is just staring off into the distance. He is not happy to be dancing with Jen in this moment. He got what he was looking for this entire night, which was some intimacy in this case, like physical closeness with this person, this quote unquote object of his desire. But in this moment, when he finally gets that he does not look happy. He doesn't look like he is actually enjoying this moment with this person. He looks terrified, as if he is realizing it wasn't as good as he was expecting.
Cody: Yeah, I would love that kind of reading with this character that's so obsessed with film. And he only sees heterosexual relationships in Steven Spielberg movies and what other movies that he's watching that he thinks like, oh, I'm supposed to be with a woman because that's what the movies tell me, even though it makes me feel nothing. And that would add to why he's so grossed out by sex because he only views sex as between a man and a woman. That'd be really interesting and cool. Come on, Kevin Williamson, I know you can do it. That would be a great way for the show to flesh out even more because if this is how it is right now, I'm just kind of whatever to it and Dawson sucks. Should we get into our final thoughts and our rating?
James: Yes, we should.
Stella: i loved the episode. I am very excited to continue watching.
Mal: yeah.
Stella: Overall, I thought it was like a lot of fun. There's a lot of like very. What's the word? Just like classic high school. the dance, the fight, just the different relationships felt like, I don't know. But I'm excited and there was some really funny moments and I overall really enjoyed the writing. I thought the writing was very sharp.
Cody: Do you want to give it a rating?
Stella: Are we doing it on a five Creek scale?
James: Five Creek.
Stella: You know, I think I'm going to give it a four and a half knocking at a half Creek of the lack of canoeing and Creek presence.
Cody: Yeah.
James: So I loved this episode. I thought it was pretty much incredible. I laughed so hard at so many points in this episode. I didn't cry, but I definitely did feel emotions that I wasn't expecting to feel. I felt challenged by the episode at multiple points. So I think that if I had to rate this on a Creek scale, I really want to say five, but I'm going to say four because there are also some glaring issues.
Mal: I'm going to give it like a 4.7 Pitchfork now. Not quite a five too soon. I feel like it's too soon to give it a five. But yeah, I had a lot of fun, lots of surprises. I laughed, I yelled at the screen. James knows that because he heard me.
James: Um.
Mal: Not much. I mean, you kind of all covered it, but yeah, there was a lot. I really liked the character development with Jen and Joey becoming a little closer and I don't want to see any more pacey, but at the same time I do because I really want to know what his life is like outside of what we've seen so far.
Cody: Right on. For me, I'm giving it a three and a half out of five. I think it's an enormous improvement over the pilot. I think it was much better paced. I think there are so many things about it that are a lot stronger and I enjoyed myself from start to finish. i just think that there were a lot of things that were lacking when it comes to not continuity error, but just the fact that we're getting these big breaks in time where things should have been moving a little better. It just came off a little clunky to me.
Stella: Sorry, did you say three and a half out of five?
Cody: Three and a half out of five.
Mal: Yeah.
Cody: Well, if you think five is like Masterpiece television, you're coming from the lens.
Mal: Of like being making film. I guess.
Cody: I like a lot of things that I would give a lower rating too. One of my favorite movies of all time is Billy Madison and I would say that movie is a D at best. Back to this three and a half out of five. I had some issues with a lot of the scenes. I mean if we're being honest, the kissing advice scene is weird and did not belong to being here. The Chapstick thing didn't really add anything to the narrative. It was just there to sell chapstick. But what elevated this for me was the fact that they are aware that Dawson is a monster. The movie that he's shooting is an allegory for his life. I have hope that they know what they're doing and they are developing him to be someone that is not admirable and he's learning from his experiences. With that being said, I still hate Pacey and his plot. The Bstory is awful. I do not want to see it. And even just like from a standpoint of telling a narrative, I do not like seeing just one little story being drawn out so much because again, this character is supposed to be a main character and every scene that he's in is about pretty much one thing. How can I be with the teacher? And it is agonizing. But yeah, I still really enjoy this episode. It was a lot of fun.
James: Well, should we get into recommendations here?
Cody: I would love to.
James: You want to go first, Cody, since you went last time?
Cody: Okay, yeah, sure. My recommendation that has nothing to do with Dawson's Creek this week is a podcast called Watch If You Dare. It is a show that explores horror cinema through the eyes of a self proclaimed coward and through another person who's a long time fan. so each episode they go through a movie that's spooky and they try to attempt to figure out why the jump scares and supernatural entities and phobias get under our skin. And if people that are interested in getting into horror movies can handle it, it's really fun. I think they have really great chemistry. You can tell that they've been friends for really long time and there's just something really genuine and fun about it that I really like. And they start each episode off talking about different things in horror that aren't movies as recommendations. And I've gotten into a lot of cool stuff based on the recommendations. if you're going to get into the podcast, I think their episodes on the Thanksgiving themed 80 Bloodrage is amazing and their latest one about Jordan Peele's Get Out was extremely good and very insightful. I think you should check it out.
James: Awesome.
Stella: I will recommend an Instagram account at the Lisa Gilroy. She is a funny lady that makes me laugh every day and I think she's the best. And she does a lot of, like, funny characters.
Mal: Yeah.
Stella: Lots of good content on her Instagram.
James: Cool.
Mal: Nice. So last night James and I watched The French Dispatch, and this is not a recommendation for that, but it reminded me of another an Instagram account that I follow, one of my favorites called Accidentally West Anderson.
Cody: oh yeah, that's so fun.
Mal: Love this account. It was like started in 2017 by just some fans of West Anderson, but it's kind of grown to have this massive following. So if you love architecture, history, travel, like design, color, anything, that kind of like when you watch a West Anderson film, you see these things in his shots. But yeah, this is just like, I highly recommend taking a dive into this account. It's lots of fun. They also take photo submissions from fans and they have a website and they kind of have a lot of involvement with fans, so it's a fun one.
James: Awesome. My recommendation this week is something maybe a little narrow. We'll see if anybody else cares about this, but I'm going to recommend a brand new video game as of the recording of this episode called Eldon Ring. If you don't know what that is, have no fear. It's a really cool fantasy video game that was made in collaboration between George R. R. Martin, who you may know from the Game of Thrones series, and an incredible individual named Hidataka Miyazaki, who created the Souls video games like Dark Souls and Bloodborne and things like that. Eldon Ring is the latest installment of the Souls like games, in which case we are in a as you might imagine, if you're familiar with the other installations of this a kind of like, apocalyptic fantasy universe. It is incredibly punishing. It's really hard, but the landscapes are absolutely beautiful. And lately I've been playing this game and it's the kind of game where you see like a big Castle off in the distance, like far, far away, and you're like, how do I get there? I want to go there and suddenly you find yourself just like mindlessly adventuring through this crazy landscape full of skeletons and scary zombies and big dudes on horseback with a sword and they all want to kill you and you have to kind of figure out how to get there. And it's just one of the most rewarding games all of the Souls games are, and this one is absolutely fantastic, so I can't recommend it more Elden Ring.
Cody: Check it out. And do we want to get in the next time? On Dawson's Creek season one, episode three entitled Kiss the Class Movie. The class movie hits some trouble, giving Dawson an advantage. Joey falls in love with a visitor to the town Pacey School achievements in his relationship with Ms. Jacobs intensify. Boo Dawson brings his feelings about Jen out into the open. Can't wait to find out what that means and we will in our next episode.
James: Yeah. So make sure to follow us online. You can find us on the socials at freaks and creeks, pod. You can find us on any podcasts or our platform that you are listening to. You're probably listening to us right there right now, but please go ahead and rate and review us. That would mean a lot and otherwise we will catch you next time on and creeks.