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On the WorkWell Podcast, Jen Fisher — Human Sustainability Leader at Deloitte and Editor-at-Large, Human Sustainability at Thrive Global — sits down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations about how we can develop a way of living and working built on human sustainability, starting with ourselves.
I'm really excited to share that my TEDx talk, The Future of Work is out. It combines my personal story with practical ways we can all come together to create a better world of work by focusing on human sustainability. Just search for Jen Fisher TEDx on your preferred search engine to watch my talk and please join me in the movement to make well-being the future of work by sharing it with your networks. Thank you. Many people feel anxious and overwhelmed by climate change, me included.
Jen Fisher:But is there anything we can do to turn those feelings into something productive and meaningful? Psychology might just be the missing piece to solve the ecological crisis with sustainable actions. This is the WorkWell podcast series by Deloitte. Hi. I'm Jen Fisher, and I'm so pleased to be here with you today to talk about all things purpose, well-being, and human sustainability.
Jen Fisher:I'm here with doctor Renee Lertzmann. She's an internationally recognized psychological researcher and thought leader working to make an impact on climate change. Renee has more than 20 years of experience as a pioneer bridging psychology and sustainability. She regularly teaches, presents, and produces research for numerous institutions across the globe. She's also a TED speaker, published journalist, and author of the book Environmental Melancholia.
Jen Fisher:Renee, welcome to the show.
Renee Lertzman:Thank you for having me.
Jen Fisher:Yeah. Of course. So, Renee, tell us I'd like to start. Tell us your story. Tell us who you are, and how you became passionate about the intersection of psychology and climate change.
Renee Lertzman:Sure. In a way, the story goes back to when I was quite a young person, and I am someone who has benefited greatly from psychology. So going back even in high school, I was seeing a therapist. I was really engaged with anything I could read about human psychology. And particularly, I was interested in social psychology, you know, kind of why and how people do what we do socially.
Renee Lertzman:And what happened was, I found myself at at college, you know, very focused on being a psych major and becoming a psychotherapist. And then I ended up taking a environmental studies class. And it was one of those classes in the late 1980s that was sort of the lecture series where, you know, it's a 101, and and you get introduced to a field, broadly. And and I found myself sitting in this class hearing about what was happening with our planet and, you know, whether that's species loss or deforestation, climate change. And I was really destabilized by it in part because I wasn't hearing anything about this in my psychology coursework.
Renee Lertzman:And that just struck me as very bizarre. Like, it really felt like such a weird disconnect to go from one class where we're talking about existential issues and threats that really deeply impact all humans in life and then to go into a psychology class where we're talking about humans as if we're not part and embedded and and inter, you know, interconnected with with life and the planet. And so, I became very, I would say depressed and anxious, as a result of this sort of collision. And I went around to try to get support. Again, this is late 80, so it wasn't as top of mind now as it is now.
Renee Lertzman:But I went to my psych, you know, professors. I went to my environmental studies people. I you know, and I couldn't find anyone who would really just say, you know what? You're right. Like, let's do this.
Renee Lertzman:And so I ended up really embarking on a path of piecing it together over many years, and and that led to, you know, kind of a series of, a lot of learning and training and research. And and then fast forward to my having kind of gone through a lot of academic training and deciding that I really love working with organizations and with people who are really in in it, you know, really, really working on the front lines of this work.
Jen Fisher:You said it twice, and I I have to kind of bring us back that this this was in the 19 eighties that you were learning about sustainability and climate and environmental threats and changes that were happening and, you know, that created kind of this fear and anxiety in you. And here we are in 2024. And, have we made progress?
Renee Lertzman:Yes and no? Yeah. I mean, I know I'm dating myself here, but but it really has been a long time. Yeah. And, what's happening now is it's it's kind of surreal because it feels like all of a sudden, it, you know, feels almost like boom, you know, overnight.
Renee Lertzman:Everyone's like, oh my gosh, you know, Climate environment, client and sustainability are, you know, impacting us emotionally and psychologically. So in that sense, a lot has changed.
Jen Fisher:Okay.
Renee Lertzman:And in other ways, I feel like the the the field, more broadly, is still very, very slow to really engage with these realms. And and the way I think about it is if you look at a program of a of a big flagship, conference or summit or gathering, you will often find very predictable disciplines being represented, technology, policy, economics, and science. And and I also kind of have fun sometimes asking people, well, what was your what what did you get your degree in? You know, what's your background? And almost always, people who are really in in these spaces, it's kind of amazing.
Renee Lertzman:There's a very limited repertoire of backgrounds, which is, yeah, economics, you know, or policy, or maybe, oh, I did French lit, but then I, you know, went on to do policy or whatever. But but what I'm finding is that there's still a lack of representation of those who have the kind of training and background, and I don't only mean behavioral science. I mean deep human insight and wisdom, which can draw from many aspects of this, you know, what I call kind of quote psychology could be. Some things have changed, and other things just feel so incredibly slow and haven't changed. And it and it feels like the thinking is still kind of dominated by a very technical mindset, even though we we know more than as you know, and your work reflects, the leading edge of what we now know about human beings.
Renee Lertzman:Right? So Yeah. It's like, how do we bring these things together?
Jen Fisher:And I guess it just strikes me as, in order to truly accomplish and do the things that we need to do minus the human, that's gonna be impossible to do.
Renee Lertzman:Right. You
Jen Fisher:know? And so I guess, you know, I I share maybe perhaps in your in your frustration or at least inquisitiveness of, like, why is it taking us so long? And and I think especially now when I think about generationally what's creating some of the most angst and anxiety and depression in our young people is this fear around climate and environment and what they're going to inherit or be left with or without. So can you speak to that a little bit?
Renee Lertzman:Well, I love what you just said about you were reflecting I aspire to be inquisitive. I'll put it that way. It's very easy to go into the frustration. And what I've learned the hard way is that's not a very, that's not a great energy could be coming from for any of us.
Jen Fisher:Which is why I made it an and.
Renee Lertzman:Right? Right. And then I thought about what you said with the younger younger folks who are confronted with what just feels like this sort of unbelievable You know paralysis lack of action lack of engagement which does naturally lead many people to just feel like you just want to go crazy pull your hair out like scream like it really is such a it's such a challenging kind of psychological state to be in for any of us. Right? When you see something happening and you're trying to get attention, you're trying to say, hey.
Renee Lertzman:Wait. We need to look at this, and then you're met with either gaslighting or avoidance or all the variety of mechanisms that humans have for Avoiding hard stuff
Jen Fisher:Mhmm.
Renee Lertzman:It can just be like, oh my gosh. And so I feel like I don't know if this is answering your question, but I I feel like the moment we're in is asking us on a very deep level to access this capacity to to get curious about what's happening while the stakes are very high. And I often will say that's probably the hardest thing for any human being to do. Right? Like, it it really is kind of next level stuff.
Renee Lertzman:And it has a lot to do with how we regulate our nervous systems and how we, you know, practice, you know, being in relationship with others. And, I mean, it's really it's sort of like you pull the thread and all of a sudden you're like, oh, okay. This is this isn't a quick and easy tool.
Jen Fisher:So so our nervous system automatically wants to override it.
Renee Lertzman:Yeah. Exactly. Right. Right. And I and I think this gets to the crux of the issue, which is really looking at what what is going on when humans are faced with very high stakes and threatening, distressing feedback.
Renee Lertzman:I'll just put it that way. You know, if you think about it as a feedback loop or feedback system, what enables us to stay in the game? Right? That that stay to stay creative, to stay present, to stay involved and engaged without, you know, the turning away and the turning off and all of that. And I feel like if we put a lot more attention to that precise question, so much can be unlocked.
Renee Lertzman:Right. And and as it's my belief along with, I think, anyone who really understands, defense mechanisms and, you know, all of that. That that that's kinda what we're dealing with right now, which is, humans tend to have a very hard time facing hard stuff if we feel that it's intractable, if we feel there's we have no power agency, if we feel like it's you know, there's nothing to be like, there's a whole variety of ingredients that make this all very, very tricky to confront. And then what I notice is a lot the the response to that tends to be, I think, understandable but very simplistic strategy, which is I'm sure you you know that you probably know where this is going. But, you know, the the the tendency is to then wanna make it all very, very positive and very solutions oriented and to say, hey.
Renee Lertzman:Wait. You know? It's not so bad. You know? We can do it.
Renee Lertzman:We can do it. And then we become what what I call cheerleaders as a way of trying to, like, get people engaged, and inspire and spark some sort of action. And, again, that tactic, it makes sense. I I feel in my heart, like, yeah, I get that. Right?
Renee Lertzman:But it's not psychologically grounded because what people generally need is not so much being cheerleader at but more, guided and accompanied, right? Like the whole idea of accompaniment, Right? And this idea, like, hey, let me partner with you. Let me be alongside with you. Let me be a guide with you.
Renee Lertzman:Let's look at this hard stuff together. It's really scary and overwhelming. And and that's what I'm trying to advocate for in in the work that people do in organizations and programs is taking more of that stance of a guide.
Jen Fisher:These are really big, hard, complex problems, and I will say I don't think I even understand the true extent of them or the true impact of all of my choices and decisions and behaviors. And so will you be my guide? And can you help us understand when it comes to our the emotional and psychological aspects of climate change and environment just in sustainability, what are those impacts? How is it showing up? What do we need to know about them?
Jen Fisher:And then we can talk a little bit about, okay, then what do you do
Renee Lertzman:about it? Mhmm. Well, rather than focus on the specific, technical, scientific aspects of what's going on, I would just say that there's attributes that cut across the variety of impacts that we're seeing. And these attributes have in my mind, they they are about, the unintended consequences of our practices that we have been developing over the past, you know, 100, 200 years that, are based on a particular orientation to the world. And I'm talking I don't mean to I I hope I'm not offending anyone by using a royal we here because I'm not saying all of us, obviously.
Renee Lertzman:I'm talking about, you know, industrialized, dominant, you know, societies primarily in the north. But I don't think it's I don't think it's we need to get into that. I think what I'm saying is that these attributes have to do with this confrontation with doing things that are causing harm in all kinds of ways, meaning that these are impacts that are really distributed across space and time in highly indeterminate ways. So I'm sitting at a desk right now that, you know, I don't know where it was made. It's, it's like in a computer desk.
Renee Lertzman:Right? And I'm looking at this, and I'm contemplating, okay. Where is this wood from? What was used for the finish of this? Who assembled it?
Renee Lertzman:How was the assembly done? How are the people who assembled it were treated? How are they, you know, what were the conditions there? What about the transport of this? And you can quickly kind of go insane.
Renee Lertzman:Mhmm. And because you can't even triple all of that. Right? No. It's it's, like, it's it's too much for our, minds to handle.
Renee Lertzman:Totally. Like, in the movie soul I love that movie where she's like your feeble mind can handle this picture of like a That's kind of like our our minds can only handle so much. And so I don't think the task is for each individual to become totally literate and aware of every single impact that's happening. I think that what we need to do is is more just kind of on a general sense to recognize, like, okay. We're in trouble.
Renee Lertzman:We've been doing things a certain way that have caused from profound damage and harm to numerous beings in disproportionate ways around the planet. Okay. Now given that, how do I and we want to respond to that? And in order to do that, I think we need to go through some territory that generally tends to be bypassed or skipped over and the part that we tend to skip over is simply the capacity to just pause reflect And take stock and and ownership and responsibility to say, oh, wow, like, okay We you know, there's some bad stuff going on, and I'm a part of it because I'm living in a society. I I drive.
Renee Lertzman:I I I consume. I am participating in practices that I know are harmful, and that That's painful to be in but the task is not to just dwell there because again, that's not healthy constructive The task is to be able to be with that and say, okay, here we are. We're in this moment And we're we're being kind of flooded with all this feedback. Now what is it that I you know, how do I want to respond, and how can I how do I choose to respond? And how can I leverage my particular gifts and skills and energy and passion in service of that?
Renee Lertzman:And I think it takes a certain amount of discipline to stay connected with that. Mhmm. But but, again, I feel like it's kind of a journey. Right? And we you know, people go through this, go through the the processing of it.
Renee Lertzman:And, and for that reason, I think we need we need more mechanisms to support us in doing that, which again is also why I emphasize work in organizations because I feel that organizations if they're bold and courageous and evolved enough they can provide context and and mechanisms and containers to help people, you know, kind of be with what's happening and then move into that activation and, like, okay. What do we wanna do about this? Yeah.
Jen Fisher:And so I wanna talk about what some of those specific mechanisms look like but just also from kind of a human psychology perspective, I guess, recognition that I feel like it's really easy to, like like you said get stuck there and almost throw up my hands and just say well I can't I can't completely overhaul my life and so what do you say in that regard?
Renee Lertzman:I say that we need to reframe the situation, it's what if what if the goal is not to overhaul your life and live a 100 percent in in alignment all the time. Like, I I because no
Jen Fisher:one can do that.
Renee Lertzman:No no one can do that. So that that, orientation is a setup for failure and it leads to many many many people short circ I I have a term short circuiting. So Yeah. It's like we we feel. You have that, like, instant moment of like, like you you have a feeling you have a response about something And then all of a sudden the next thing you know your short circuit, and you're you're completely out of it.
Renee Lertzman:And that's because we cycle through very quickly this line of thinking that's not necessarily productive or accurate, which is somehow you're supposed to be completely in alignment. Like, what about questioning that? Really interrogating some of these underlying beliefs and assumptions that are not helpful. And so the reframe is really about how do I, again, how do I be with what is? Right?
Renee Lertzman:Be with what is, which is that you're we're part of a system. We're living a life. And how do you be with that in a way that is in service of and in the direction of healing and repair and regeneration and, You know, life, basically, and that's that's the That's the opportunity. That's the reframe. Right?
Renee Lertzman:And so that's what I use, and it doesn't mean I'm in denial. It doesn't mean that I'm, dissociated. It doesn't mean that I'm, minimizing when I'm at the gas pump, and I'm actually because I still drive a car that uses petrol. I'm very mindful of when I fly and use these things and when I use plastic and what you know, I'm I'm not checked out, but it's my relationship with what's happening, which is this constant, capacity to recognize this is a moment we're in right now as humans, and we are working through it, and we're in a really hard place right now. Just like a human is when they receive a diagnosis.
Renee Lertzman:Mhmm. It's really not that different. And, you know, we're in that moment, a collective moment of a lot of diagnoses, like assaulting our our our systems constantly. And then you've got a lot of shouty people. They're making a healthier.
Renee Lertzman:Yeah. Like, all the shouting is just, like, come on. Like, that's
Jen Fisher:helping anyone. Yeah.
Renee Lertzman:No. But it's helping those shouty people feel better. Yeah. That's really all it's doing.
Jen Fisher:That's true. That's true. So so let's talk about you you mentioned a couple times kind of the work that the the role that organizations can play in helping to support this change that's needed both at an organizational level but also kind of supporting their workforce through these types of of of changes and then the the need, you know, what's needed.
Renee Lertzman:So I, I'm very I'm kind of came late to organizational work in a way because I spent all those years as a researcher academia. And, you know, like, it was really theoretical. And then I it took me about 10 years to, sort of make this transition where, okay, what does this look like in an organizational setting? And I'm being asked that, like, endless times and not always being very good at Knowing what to say, you know, it's like, well, this all sounds great. What do we do with this is like the number one question I get and so where I've come to more and more is this just I have so much, I guess, appreciation and love for what's possible in an organization.
Renee Lertzman:I'm, like, looking at these programs that various leadership folks do, and I'm thinking, well, what is happening there? What and then what's not happening? What what what's the? Where do these fall down and where where it leads me is this idea that we can instill and embed capabilities within organizations with the people in them to actually design and foster spaces where they get to learn and grow and process, so by and for themselves And so how within a large? Medium or small organization.
Renee Lertzman:Do you create islands of sanity? And what that looks like to me is cohorts and it looks like train the trainers and it looks like building out a culture in an organization where Everyone is part of it, right? So it's no longer the province of This office of sustainability over here or this office of esg over here. It's actually now about Employees and or you know staff and leadership really coming together in new and different ways So that's that's kinda where I'm at with with what's possible in organizations, which is creating, you know, circles, cohorts,
Jen Fisher:Community. Yeah. Building. Community.
Renee Lertzman:And and it really does involve partnership usually with HR, and it involves partnership with l and d. You know, again, it's like it feels like every institution is having to rethink their categories and silos now. And and suddenly, it's, like, very messy. It's, like, well, who owns this? Right?
Renee Lertzman:It's, like, well, it's I thought it was l and d. Everybody. Yeah. So it's really important to create create safety so that people feel like it's, you know, genuinely a safe no one's taking anything away. Right?
Renee Lertzman:But, how do we build and grow people? Which is, which is a really important principle of mine, which is, you know, any of this work needs to be really about growing people and, seeing what what what comes out of that.
Jen Fisher:Yeah. I I mean, one thing that also related to your work, that I'd love for you to talk about is, and you've touched on it a little bit but the importance of of empathy when addressing, you know, environmental issues and and how do we use and create and kind of cultivate that empathy to actually create these communities and drive positive change and so that we're not shouting at each other about things. Mhmm. And so talk talk to me about about that and why it's so important and and and the impact that it has.
Renee Lertzman:Right. Well, if we really distill what works in a therapeutic relationship or a healing relationship, what what's the ingredient if we really get, like, distill it down to the essence? It really is about attunement. It's about feeling attuned with and the capacity to attune. And that is, that is about empathy.
Renee Lertzman:Right? It's about this this ability to empathize. What we're seeing right now is a recognition of how powerful it is for people to basically be seen and to see. And so what I often advise anyone working in sustainability, climate, and the environment is how deceptively simple it is and powerful it is to empathize explicitly with what it is you, you know, you are hearing, seeing, what your stakeholders might be experiencing, what your consumers are, your audiences are. And for some reason, this has been a really big leap that a that that organizations and brands haven't quite made, even though we've, you know, we've known about this kind of research for quite some time.
Renee Lertzman:I think it's edgy and it feels risky to come out or even let's even include politicians in this leaders to come out and say hey, you know what like I get how much you're hurting right now or I understand that these issues are really like on on the one hand you want to do something to make the world better and on the other hand you feel you don't know how to square that with your responsibilities as a parent or as a you know what? I mean? Like just that simple acknowledgment the simple act of empathizing does something to our brains like it literally changes our neurochemistry and all of a sudden we feel safer and all of a sudden we can relax a little bit more and then take in the harder stuff take in the information that you know, people are wanting to convey and communicate. So this is why I think it's so important to invest in developing and cultivating these capacities for attunement, for empathy, and to not give it a superficial treatment. You know, that's really hard to do.
Renee Lertzman:And and you can read something like a blog post or whatever, and you can think, yeah. I wanna do that. That totally makes sense to me. And then it's like, then what? And so I don't wanna underestimate what we're talking about here, which is that this is next level human evolution stuff.
Renee Lertzman:I I believe we're capable of doing it, and I believe organizations have a responsibility to cultivate and nurture their people. You know? And that that comes with some risks too, because what, you know, what happens if you I think there's some anxiety about, kinda unlocking people's, you know, concerns, passion. But, you know, you either do it thoughtfully and mindfully, or it's going to happen in ways that you don't necessarily want it to.
Jen Fisher:But yeah. I mean, I think we're seeing some of that. It it's happening, and, you know, engaging with your workforce in a meaningful way, in an empathetic way asking them what they think, asking them what they need, you know, and this and this goes for for for really anything, or any relationship that that anyone has. I mean, the act of being present for somebody and seeing them and hearing them doesn't doesn't always translate to you have to fix the problem for them. That's right.
Jen Fisher:You know? And so I think that that to me, is what keeps people from sometimes having these conversations because they say, well, what if what if I can't fix the problem?
Renee Lertzman:Exactly. You
Jen Fisher:know and I think as leaders and just as human beings, as partners, as friends, like our natural inclination is to be like oh my god somebody is struggling or uncomfortable or unhappy or this is this is really hard. How do I fix it? Exactly. Yeah.
Renee Lertzman:Which is which is why I haven't seen really any, this might be an overstatement, but I I haven't really seen any climate sustainability or ESG business unit be able to do this without some support and guidance.
Jen Fisher:Yeah.
Renee Lertzman:And I'm proud to say I've been part of some of that, and there I have seen it happen. But it's it's rare precisely because people who are in those roles are real driven problem solvers and fixers. And this just just is not a muscle. They're either it's it just is, like, foreign. Mhmm.
Renee Lertzman:You know, it's and and to your point, it does feel it's anxiety producing. And so I think we need to go right into what what is the anxiety? What keeps organizations from doing more of this kind of engagement with their workforce? It's it's just you know, maybe that is what it comes down to is is, oh, I don't wanna open up this whole can of worms.
Jen Fisher:But but what we do know also is that the the the seemingly you know, the simple act of of asking and engaging in the conversation, goes a really long way and further to that, if you if you can't solve the problem or don't want to solve the problem or the timing isn't right or whatever the answer is, communicating that answer back. I mean, you know, human beings are are smart. Our workforces are smart. We get it. Right?
Jen Fisher:And I think it's about, you know, it's it's that feedback loop but it's that, hey, I see you and hear you as a human being and I also trust that, you know, you see and hear me as a human being and that I'm doing the very best that I can with what I have. Right? But if we have this open line of communication, you know, not we're not going to fix all of our problems but, you know, the simple act of I say simple but it's not, the complex act of just having this open line of communication, you I do think that what we've learned is that having these conversations also helps us solve the problems. Oh, it does. That you don't feel like you like, I asked you, Renee, what's the problem?
Jen Fisher:You told me and then that was the end of the conversation and I went away feeling like I solely had to solve it myself. Mhmm. You know? So
Renee Lertzman:Right. Right. Exactly. And I and I guess what's coming to mind for me hearing you speak is we need more leaders and managers, directors who have their own direct experience, visceral experience of this themselves. Yeah.
Renee Lertzman:Otherwise, it's just it's really just kind of conceptual. But if you have gone through so what I aim for in the work I do with teams, groups, and organizations, it's a little bit of a slight of hand. Like, I I try to create an environment an experience for them without telling them openly, hey. Imagine if your stakeholders had this exact experience you're having here. And so I work with them by with a lot of listening, a lot of guiding, a lot of, like, you know, and then the idea is that people have had a taste of how powerful that is How it opens up so much.
Renee Lertzman:And then and then there's a natural, like, oh, wow. Let's go and do this with the rest of our workforce. You know? Yeah.
Jen Fisher:And so it does create that ripple effect.
Renee Lertzman:Yeah. But it has to be felt felt first.
Jen Fisher:For sure. I mean, I think, you know, the emotions we we we as human beings more often than not act on emotion. Right. Even though it's not always the best answer. So so one final question for you Renee and this is kind of more on like the individual level as opposed to organizational but of course it can have that ripple but for those of us that do have climate anxiety and that's becoming more and more prevalent.
Jen Fisher:Like, what's the best way to kind of cope with those feelings and and I guess more importantly, like, what are some specific ways that we can channel them into meaningful action for ourselves?
Renee Lertzman:I don't have a formula, but I I do have some thoughts. One is it's incredibly important to have a practice of some kind that connects you with your like, what you love and what really gives you joy and Like I'm looking at this moment. I'm in Portland, Oregon right now, and I'm looking out the window and there's a beautiful fir tree. Right? So I I think it's very important that we stay connected with nature, whatever that looks like and means for us, and that we stay connected with that kind of bigger picture.
Renee Lertzman:And then there's the importance of self compassion and really really getting off your back and and really having an attitude of whatever You're feeling is totally okay and normal like no more self policing Your anxiety about what's happening is absolutely makes total sense. And then that relates to the 3rd piece, which is about making sure that you're connected with other people who can affirm and reflect this back to you. Because one of the hardest things for us as relational social beings is if we're having an experience and everyone around us is looking at us, like, what's wrong with you? That's that's deeply profound and deeply debilitating. So it's so important to find these spaces, communities, and more and more is, you know, available now.
Renee Lertzman:It's, like, hard not to find some sort of group or, you know, circle or whatever. And then I would say, you know, resourcing yourself, getting support, you know, whatever that makes sense for you, however that makes sense for you, like, whether it's therapy or support group or whatever. And then and, and then there's the action piece. And and I very intentionally always put that at the last because it's not about, like, combating your anxiety with action. You know?
Renee Lertzman:I I really have such an issue with that that whole mindset. It's really aggressive, and it's really problematic to say, oh, go out and just do something. You know?
Jen Fisher:And it'll make you feel better.
Renee Lertzman:You know? Because you wanna be able to be with your feelings and process. And when you take action, be able to come from a place of being kinda grounded, right, and not just reactionary. So but but the action piece of doing something in service so I'm lucky in that my work is in service. Right?
Renee Lertzman:So everything I do for my work is literally an expression of my care for the world. Now a lot of people, that's not necessarily the case. So we need to find what we can do. And, again, we have to recognize that whatever we do, it might feel insignificant, but that's the mind, the feeble mind. Just think of Soul.
Renee Lertzman:Yeah. The movie Soul and, like, those, you know, those those characters. Like, we have to really you know, this whole, like, oh, it's not enough. This is too tiny. That's the mind.
Renee Lertzman:Like that's the brain in actuality, you know, we're in such a a complex system that we can't even possibly fathom the totality of it. And so every little thing we do actually is meaningful and really does matter in some way or another. So, and then I would add on to that kind of turbo boost the turbo boost The action to say I'm not just talking about, oh, if I buy something, everything's gonna be okay. We've gotta push ourselves to think bigger, broader, and more collectively with regards to collective action. And again, if that's in your organization, your community, your neighborhood, your school, your church, you know, whatever that looks like, I think it's vital that we make that bridge to the bigger the bigger picture as well.
Jen Fisher:Yeah. And and what what I took away or the most meaning you you said a lot service of yourself and then and then others or then other things and other people.
Renee Lertzman:Yeah. There is I mean, it all it all comes back to that. Yeah. Unfortunate alas. Yes.
Renee Lertzman:I'm learning the hard way because I'm, like, in a caregiving role with my mom right now, and I'm you know, talk about making it real. Like, I'm realizing, oh, wow. Like, if I'm not okay. Mhmm. I can't I really can't be of service and help to anyone else.
Jen Fisher:Action sometimes is being in service of yourself, and I am right there with you and being a caregiver for my mother. So I, I definitely have a lot of empathy and sympathy and all the things, compassion, everything is needed there. So
Renee Lertzman:Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
Jen Fisher:Renee, thank you so much for being on the show today. I really enjoyed this conversation and I think it's going to be helpful to so many others that are, thinking about and perhaps, struggling with this topic as well. So thank you.
Renee Lertzman:Yeah. Thank you so much. Really loved our conversation.
Jen Fisher:I'm so grateful Renee could be with us today to talk about the intersection between climate change and psychology. Thank you to our producers, Rivet 360 and our listeners. You can find the Work Well podcast series on deloitte.com, or you can visit various podcatchers using the keyword work well, all one word, to hear more. And if you like the show, don't forget to subscribe so you get all of our future episodes. If you have a topic you'd like to hear on the WorkWell podcast series or maybe a story you would like to share, please reach out to me on LinkedIn.
Jen Fisher:My profile is under the name Jen Fisher or on Twitter at Jen Fish 23. We're always open to your recommendations and feedback. And, of course, if you like what you hear, please share, post, and like this podcast. Thank you, and be well. The information, opinions, and recommendations expressed by guests on this Deloitte podcast series are for general information and should not be considered as specific advice or services.