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The podcast where relentless curiosity meets leadership transformation.
Hosted by Tyler Chisholm—entrepreneur, CEO, and lifelong learner—Curious as Hell is the go-to podcast for leaders, innovators, and trailblazers who believe that asking the right questions can unlock new possibilities in business and life.
In each episode, Tyler sits down with top executives, entrepreneurs, and thought leaders to explore how curiosity fuels innovation, builds stronger teams, and drives personal growth. Whether it's uncovering the leadership strategies behind top-performing companies, unpacking the mindset shifts that foster resilience, or challenging conventional wisdom, Curious as Hell delivers actionable insights that help you lead with confidence and creativity.
If you're a growth-minded leader looking for fresh perspectives, practical strategies, and inspiring conversations that push boundaries, then you're in the right place.
Welcome to the very first episode of Curious as Hell, the podcast for leaders who want to lead smarter, grow stronger, and stay curious in a world that won't slow down. I'm Leah Sarich, fellow podcaster and friend of the host of this podcast, Tyler Chisholm. And today, I'm I'm turning the mic on the host himself to set the stage. Tyler is the author of the book Curious as Hell: Leading and Growing with Curiosity and the founder of this new podcast series. We'll be exploring why curiosity matters now more than ever, why certainty is no longer the safety net it once was, and how this show is designed to help you lead not just differently, but better.
Excited to be here. Thank you, Leah. That was a lovely introduction.
Hey, it was wonderful to read. You can see my book here. Look at this. That's a lot of sticky notes, right? That's a lot of sticky notes.
That warms my heart. I can't even tell you because then it tells me you found some value.
I did.
And when you put something out there to the world, there's some moments where you feel like you're taking some risk.
Absolutely.
That's where the magic happens.
And so this is why I'm going to say congratulations.
Thank you very much.
First of all, because a lot of people talk about, "I'm going to write a book about this," or, "I have so many thoughts on this subject." Very few people actually take the leap, put their thoughts in order into a book, and then even then put it out in the world.
Yes. There's many versions of the scary parts.
Yeah.
Equivalent to saying, I'm going to run a marathon, and then you start running and go, oh, this is as hard or harder than I thought, and it's rewarding, and it's a roller coaster. And then there's a little bit of vulnerability at the end. Oh, not a little. A lot.
I would say.
Here's what I think. I hope it's okay.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah.
No, I think it's amazing.
Thank you for that. I appreciate the feedback.
No, I really— I'm very— yes, congratulations. That's really what I wanted to start with. But I'm curious. This is what I'm— Stop.
Try not to say it.
Try not to. I can't not, because as a former journalist, this is how we think.
It's in your blood.
And you and I have talked about this many times, but as a journalist, this is how my brain works. And so to see it put in this book and then to see it put in the book in a way that actually is accessible for people to understand and use on a daily basis, I think is awesome.
Thank you.
Yes. So, fun fact— I'm blushing over here. So why don't we start a little bit of like a 101? Like, give me just sort of the overview of what you're tackling with this book.
It's such a simple question, but yet—.
But it's so hard. I know.
It was a culmination of my own journey. Not only— I joke it's leading and growing. So as a leader, I've been in a leadership role officially for many years, and there's some stories in the book when it didn't go so well and when it did.
Yes.
And I think it was a journey of discovery. And honestly, it was podcasting that opened the door for me to curiosity as that superpower. And I first started podcasting, maybe, you know, the story's in the book and I shared a little bit where I kind of got strong-armed into it by a really good friend of mine. And I could not be more thankful as we, you know, close out over 500 episodes. But all of a sudden I'm like, whoa, I'm doing a podcast and I'm interviewing who? Imposter syndrome hit me hard. Who am I? What am I? And I wrestled with that weeks leading up to, and then all of a sudden, and I don't even know if it was as tangible as I make it sound in the book, I'm like, wait a second, this isn't about me. It's about them. So I don't have to be the expert on their life.
That's ridiculous.
That's right.
Make them the hero.
Yeah.
And start leading and lead in with curiosity. Just ask questions. Be informed. Don't show up.
Sure.
Don't show up a blank slate.
Do a little homework.
100%. But just show up and ask questions and be curious. And I don't think it was as tangible, and nor did I refer to it as curiosity at that point, but I've always believed in kind of that hero's journey of like start introduce the character, they overcome something, they resolve. But that wasn't me. That was the guest.
Right.
Did that for a couple of years and went, "Hey, this is kind of working out." And a couple of friends from the outside, you know, you always have to surround yourself with people to go, "Hey, I really like how this curiosity thing is really working for you." And you're like, "Really?
What?
What's happening?" "Okay. All right. I like that." And my social media manager, she's like, "Tyler, like, I think there's some space you can own this curiosity thing." And I was like, "Yeah, I'm just a podcaster, you know, just doing the thing." And then all of a sudden I did a leadership 360 with my team. And I got some feedback. Tyler, you're jumping to the end. Tyler, you're not letting us finish. Tyler, you're showing up asking questions that you already know the answer to. You're not leaving any space.
And I'm like, huh, that would make a terrible podcast host. So I wonder if some of the things I've learned through my experience of having these conversations, often with very senior, like, people that are like, I'm getting to talk to who? And as a journalist, you know what that's like.
Yes, all the time.
And I said, well, wait a second. There's some lines here that are blurrier than I think I think, I thought. And I started showing up more curious and I started being more deliberate on my journey as a leader, understanding where I believe like a fixed mindset is the opposite of curiosity. I know, and this is the way, it's more prophesizing. I just speak that way versus, no, I'm open, I'm curious. Like what I know today, I might learn something new tomorrow that'll change my direction. And I started becoming very deliberate how I brought that into my own personal leadership journey. And I would say almost immediately, because I started to create a little cheat note where I'd keep track of where I caught myself being curious or I caught myself like kind of shutting it down.
And the outcomes were always better on the right side of the sheet. And that was my journey of really self-discovery. But podcasting opened it up of putting myself into kind of almost like— it's almost like, you know, the joke of, you know, what you learn on the yoga mat you should bring home. You know, you go to the gym to be better at going hiking. I did podcasting to be better at the rest of my life because it was like a little compartment where I could practice. Yes. I could listen after and go, you could have been a little bit more curious, Tyler, at that point.
Right, right.
You went forward without— and I started to really observe, get feedback from some friends who are like, oh, I like how you paraphrased there. I like how you did that. I like how you kind of stopped and didn't let the guess go by without digging in a little deeper.
Right.
So it was my practice. It was my practice gym, my practice yoga mat, I joke sometimes, that then really started to materialize into what showed up in the book, which was a lot of self-curiosity of how I was showing up with my team. In parallel to how I was showing up as a podcast host. And there was a lot more in common than I would've ever initially thought.
That is so interesting because, you know, again, as a journalist, you are always taught from day one to— this isn't about you at all. So journalists like myself, we're always just like, we don't care how silly we sound. I've said so many times— This is a gift.
Right?
It's a gift. I've said so many times to people, I have no idea what you're saying. I don't understand it at all. You gotta talk to me like I'm 3. And you— because you just don't care because you're there to get the story. It has nothing to do with you. But what I love about this book is that you explore that in leadership. And leaders do not like to feel like that.
They don't like to feel that they don't know what's going on.
No, we don't.
Right?
No, we do not. Vulnerability, imposter syndrome. I'm supposed to have all the answers. I'm supposed to be on the top of the mountain riding in on my white horse. And I joke about it in the book. Growing up with some of these role models, oftentimes we learn about leadership in Hollywood. We all know that it's a show, it's exaggerated. But when that's your reference point of hard charging and alpha this, and, you know, and I grew up in that kind of that toxic masculinity, which was leaders, you know, you get the girl, you shoot the bad guy and you make the quick joke and everyone follows you on their shoulders.
That's not how it was.
No. That's ridiculous.
And I joke, you know, that the theme of this whole initial season 1 is, you know, the risk of certainty. Now, how do we be certain in a world that's changing under our feet? When we've got multi-generations in the workforce, we've got a neighbor south of the border that felt like our friend one.
Day, wasn't our friend.
AI, like, I could just pick a laundry list of things that are going on. But yet also, I believe we have people that we, you know, back to the leadership filter, these people didn't show up just to be told what to do. They showed up to participate. They showed up to take part. And why would I, even as like the best, like, Why would I not take advantage of that? Like, let's just talk logistics of it all. Why wouldn't I give a chance for all these super smart individuals that are passionate and engaged to show up and actually provide? But it's kind of hard when you don't create a little bit of space in the room, because you're too busy wanting to pretend like you have all the answers. I'm gonna use the word pretend.
Pretend.
Because you can't, nobody has all the answers.
Nobody has the answers.
It's not real. And curiosity creates a little bit of permissibility that I think, again, back to my model, self-curiosity is where it all begins. Oh, we're gonna do curiosity. This is gonna be a curious culture. It all starts with how you show up and the space you create in the room. But if you don't buy into it, your team's not going to either.
Agreed. Okay, so we're gonna dig into that.
Not even a little bit.
We're gonna dig into that more. But first I wanna talk a little bit about, so we're actually doing a podcast here, a companion piece to the.
Book if you will. We are, yep.
And I wanna know why you wanted to take what was in this book and put it into this format as well. I'm curious about that.
Selfishly, because it's my favorite medium to have a good conversation. Right? Like in space.
Agreed, I agree.
'Cause this was great, but this is me pushing out information. Right.
Right.
Well, what I've loved about the book seems why I love this kind of environment. I don't know what we're gonna talk about in 5 minutes, 'cause you're gonna say something that I didn't know was coming. Yes. And the ability to riff and to build on things and make it bigger and better. But, you know, very quickly in the book, I move from self-curiosity, which we can dive into, but relational curiosity is that ability to engage with someone else. And for me, I've had a lot of experience, and I would say success, and I joke I would do podcasting if no one else listened because of the conversation.
Right?
And the riff.
Yeah.
And it's also just a fabulous realm to practice in. And I've had people come back to me and say, hey, Tyler, I read your book. And, you know, yeah, yeah, I was curious, but this is how I interpreted it. This is my version. And just the riffing I've got back, like a lot of leaders that I've met that have read it have come back with, hey, this is how I interpret it. What do you think? So I've learned so much from that. So I was like, hey, this makes a lot of sense to come into a podcasting environment where I can sit there and go, okay, curiosity, dot, dot, dot. What's your version? What did you experience? Because, you know, we all overcome and have similar challenges, but we're still on our own journeys.
And the ability to learn from each other is huge. And there's no better medium than a good conversation.
Agreed 100%.
I was a journalist in another life.
You were?
100%. That's a bold thing to say, but I'm gonna say it because I think it's fun. No, no, I love it.
I love it. Okay, so let's dig into the book now. So here's the thing. I'm looking at the front cover. What is this little vegetable?
I don't know if I should— if, you know, I'm sure you found the Easter egg when you were reading it. It's on page 41 in case anyone has it and they wanna flip through.
If you don't wanna give it away, that's okay.
I don't know. I'll also put it this way. This is my— this is the sales guy. I'm like, "Did it make you curious when you saw it?".
"Yep.".
"Then you're the target audience.".
"Okay.".
"And if it didn't, maybe you should put the book down.".
"Right.".
Immediately people go, "Oh, challenge accepted.".
Oh, yeah. No, because I was like, "Well, what's this about? What's going on there?
What is it?" You want to hear the story though?
Kind of.
Of why? Yeah. Okay.
So— All right.
I'm not going to tell you what it is. It's on page 41. There's a little bit of an Easter egg. But as soon as you read it, you'll get it.
Okay.
But we were going back and forth on the COVID for the book in terms of— Okay. This is such a great example of being open to what shows up as a leader. And my team is like, "Okay, we're gonna do the book cover." And like my business partner's like, "I wanna take this on for you." Like, I want— he doesn't do a lot of creative anymore. We've been in business together for years. He goes, "I wanna do the book cover for you.".
Okay.
"I'M really— I'm super proud of you." It was a really awesome moment. And we started riffing back and forth and they started down this path of a little bit of like the traditional business book. The man looking out to sea. Like it was kind of a little bit— Oh yeah, yeah. It was either you're gonna be deliberately cheesy or it's cheesy.
Okay.
And I'm like, "Ah, this isn't it. I don't know." And then somehow somebody,— you know, completely separate conversation, one of my team made a joke and he goes, "Hey, remember that banana art that sold for $6 million? That was actually my idea. Hahaha." And I was like, "Banana art? Banana art?" I'm like, "Banana art. Rutabaga." Tied to a story in the book. I'm like, "Why don't we put a rutabaga on the cover?" I call my business partner. I go, "Hey, I want to put a rutabaga on the cover." He goes, "You're joking.".
"You'Re joking, right?".
I was like, "What even is that?" People are like, "It's a turnip." It's a rutabaga and there's a joke that goes with it in the book, which I won't talk about. But it was just amazing of this, like, being observant enough when an idea just breezed by me on email in the morning.
And you're just like, huh?
And I was like, wait a second. Where? And then my business partner thought I was punking him. And so he goes, well, send me a picture of a rutabaga. And honestly, I went to iStock. I typed in, like, animated or cartoon or, like, I forget what I typed in, but something like an illustration of a rutabaga. And this was, like, the third photo. Really? And we snagged it. I sent it to my business partner.
And he's like, OK, I'm going to go along with the story because he knew rutabaga, the joke in the book is it's a bit of a safety word. When things get really tense in the boardroom and you gotta say a word that is completely off the wall and someone drops rutabaga, everyone's like, "Okay, we need to take a moment here." 'Cause things might be— safety might be going out the room, things might be getting on tilt. So it was a joke around, it's a safety word. And it's hard to say rutabaga with a ball gag in your mouth. Maybe we'll edit that part out. But it was totally from that playful nature. But the power of a little bit of an idea willing to riff off of it. My business partner telling me he thought I was nuts, but okay, I'll go with the story.
And we just played around with it. And it came to a point of like, we kind of gotta, like we gotta be bold and we gotta be brave enough. And I think something I don't talk about in the book, which has come up lately with a lot of people I've talked to, is sometimes the courage and the bravery that it takes to be curious or to put a rutabaga on the front cover of your book. An underpinning of this book that I don't think I talk about enough or in there is specifically the courage and the bravery sometimes it takes to like to follow a harebrained scream or go with a crazy idea, which is how the rutabaga on the front cover came to be.
Yes. I love it. You know what I loved about it too is because, like, I didn't know what it was. And so, like, when I first saw the book, and so then I'm Googling and I'm like, "What is this thing?" And then I started asking people, "What is this thing?".
This is working perfectly. I love it.
So I figure that it triggered my curiosity, if you will. And then I'm Googling and I'm talking to people. So clearly that's a good thing.
Sometimes you have to have the courage to try the— not only was I putting myself out there with this book, but we put Ruth Beck on the COVID And we did a— that's how we announced it on LinkedIn. That's how we let the LinkedIn world know I was writing a book. And we had about 75% resounding, "You have to use this cover. I will— if you don't, I will be upset. Can I buy it now?" So we got a resounding yes in terms of it. And the people that wanted it really wanted it. So we did crowdsource our audience. It was a little bit of our teaser campaign.
That's awesome. I love this. Okay. So that's what that's about. So you said just a little bit ago that you didn't really realize that it was curiosity that was your thing until you got started in the podcast. So, but when— so was it the other people talking to you about the curiosity? Hey, you were pretty curious here. Or did you kind of go— I'm.
Loving your curiosity in your episodes. And I'm like, oh yeah.
So that's what you were hearing.
And I wouldn't have said I wasn't being curious, But I didn't have it as a— like, I didn't have it as a— it wasn't my North Star. It wasn't my North Star. I was getting that feedback from people. Friends are like, oh, man, you're so curious, man. It must be— how are you so curious about things? Like, I would've just got bored and stopped asking questions. You're crazy curious. So I had it. It's like that core competency conversation where you don't always— you're so close to it, you take it for granted, I guess.
And you're like, am I open? And do I have an insatiable, like, I want to learn about this, I want to learn that? But I wasn't running around with curiosity label. That was something that kind of came on a little bit later to kind of, you know, north star it a little bit.
Fair. But, you know, there's one story in the book that I'm just reminded of as we're having this conversation. You may not have used the word curiosity, but you are inherently a curious person, not afraid to ask questions. I'm thinking of the pool cue story. Like, you were a teenager, weren't you?
I was. I was like 19, 20 years old. Yeah. Okay. So do we need— Had the world by the tail. I knew everything, obviously.
Right. Can you tell us the story?
Yeah, absolutely. I'll tell it for sure. It's the first time that I can look back and go, I chose this versus that, and I got a better outcome. And no, I wouldn't have called it curiosity at the time.
This is what I'm saying.
But it was funny because I remember back in slow motion. So my buddies and I were going to get my car and we're going to go to the Dufferin Games in Montreal. It's been there. It's probably still there, I think. And we walk in and I'm like, I want to buy a pool cue. Not because I'm a good pool cue player, because I want to look cool. I want a pool cue because it was a cool thing to have. Who knows? Maybe I watched The Color of Money or I watched— I forget what I watched.
Yeah, I remember that movie.
Maybe.
Who knows what my influences were at that time? Back to those role models that you have when you're 18 or 19. I walk in and I still remember I found out after, the gentleman's name was Gilles, the French guy working at the store, older guy. And I go, I want to buy, can I help you? I want to buy a pool cue. And he starts rhyming off all these questions. You want this and this grain and this kind of like, I don't even, I've forgotten more than I ever knew about pool cues. And I still remember this slow motion moment of like, I can pretend to know what I'm talking about and try to look cool. And probably look like a complete idiot. And or I can say, Jill, I don't actually know anything about pool cues.
That's why I'm here. But I still remember it being so binary because buying the pool cue to look cool was my whole point of the trip. But yet I still remember. And he's like, oh, great. And we got like a masterclass in pool cues from Jill, who was like a professional pool player who now worked at the store. Like the whole— it's like a scene from a movie.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I still look back and go, wow, I would have looked You know who would've known I knew nothing about pool cues at that point?
Everybody.
Right. But that tendency as a leader to walk in with that, I've got it all figured out. But when I admitted and let myself be vulnerable, which really is kind of surface-level vulnerability, I actually walked away getting what I came for, was a pool cue and this education from Jill because I didn't pretend. I didn't try to put on the mask of I know it all.
But you were 19. I was. And you were with your buddies.
I was.
So that is not a regular choice.
Fair enough. And you know, did I— You know what I'm saying? There probably were some other choices we're not talking about here that didn't level up. But when I thought back on it, I was like, oh wow, that was the TSN turning point where I can remember admitting I didn't know. Right. I didn't choose curiosity. I was okay with saying I didn't know. And that was really the lesson. And when I got— which then I translated like, well, then what comes next from that? You have the opportunity.
I created the space for curiosity, and then this gentleman just stepped right up and stepped right into his power. I'm like, "I've been waiting all day for someone to ask me this question.".
And then it was this awesome thing that you all got to take away with you.
It was a ton of fun.
And it's a story you're still telling, like what, 30, 40, 50 years?
Well, a story so old— Many, many years later.
That was just jokes.
More than 30, less than 50, I don't know.
A long time.
Yeah, but we love storytelling. And you sometimes think back, and anyone who's read a comic book, we love a good origin story. And I would say that was the moment I chose. Spent the next 30 or so years practicing it, tripping and falling, getting better at it. And, you know, in the last probably 5 to 8 years is when I started to become deliberate about it, like really got intentional, which this is an output of some intentionality.
Okay. Interesting. Okay. But as you're learning, I'm curious about a time when you sort of did not go down the curiosity road and things went badly, because I'm assuming you would have had to have gotten a bit more evidence that, yes, this might be the right path. So can you give me an example of when you were not curious and things went sideways?
Oh, to think of one story, like what's a huge I blew it, I blew it story because I didn't know enough? Well, okay, I'll tell you. This is a heart-wrenching story. But back years ago, one of my first businesses, I told the story at Fuck Up Nights. So the story is out there in the world. It's out there. Yeah. But I had an opportunity to sell the small business that I owned at the time. And looking back on it, I thought I knew more than I did.
And I didn't fully— looking back on it, I have to own my piece of it. There was multiple factors, but the sale kind of fell through. And it was like a disaster at that point in my life. And if I look back, I really didn't understand my financials as well as I needed to. I really didn't understand the transaction and what I was agreeing to and what I wasn't agreeing to. But I was too busy thinking I did. And I had advisors around me that, you know, did I ask enough questions? No. Did I really understand what I was getting into? No.
Did I assume I had the whole thing by— and it wasn't so much that I didn't know, it's that when I thought I knew it all. And that blind spot not only cost me, like, that was an identity crisis, that was a financial impact. Like, that was just a really bad situation. People got financially impacted by it. And looking back on it, I wasn't vulnerable. I was, I had all the answers, probably in my late 20s, probably early 30s, actually, 31, 32. So again, a couple, a few years ago. But that was a real turning point in my life, looking back on it.
Like, that was a big, that was a big F-up. I told this story a fuck of a lot because it was literally that. And it was massive. And it wasn't that I wasn't curious. I spent so— I was certain I had all the answers. The certainty is what actually got me. We're now going into a thing, and you made such an interesting comment I love about being a journalist. Now I will ask the dumbest questions, the silliest questions, because I started to realize also, like, the smartest people I know ask the silliest questions because they assume nothing.
That's right. I assumed so much that it actually, like, it was one of those, like, it took me a little bit to come back from it. It was a kick. It was knock down the flight of stairs. It was all the things. And it was the curse of certainty. Curiosity wasn't even on the table because I didn't need to be curious.
I had all the answers. Right, right, right. Oh yeah, I got this all.
I had the world by the tail at 31. Right. I didn't. I didn't. There was some impact. And, you know, parlay that into my current, even the one thing I did during COVID was I put a sheet of paper, I drew a line down the center, I wrote fixed and growth on the top. And after— You wrote what on the top? I wrote fixed on one side, growth on the— Fixed being not curious. And that was even before I was using curiosity as kind of the buzzword.
Got it. This is probably early 2020, '21. And I'd read Growth Mindset by Carol Dweck. Of course. Inspired me to no end. Older book, but everyone should read it. It's great. I think '07 it came out.
It's phenomenal because immediately you see reflections of yourself, people you know. It's really good. And every time I'd finish a meeting, I would take that couple of minutes of reflection and go, what, what did, how did I act? And was it in the left or the right column? And every time I was acting fixed, it was so easy to do because it's right there, pencil, nothing fancy.
No, it was not easy to do.
Sorry.
I just, I refuse to accept that because I'm thinking of myself and I don't think I've ever sat down and reflected on how I behaved in a meeting or a conversation, particularly with such intentionality that I would like draw it on a paper.
Like that— That sounds kind of nerdy when you say it back to me.
No, but I'm saying that is huge. That is a huge testament to who.
You are as a person. Thank you so much. But it was like, I gotta figure this out. I gotta keep score. Right. And that, after reading the book, it just was inspiring me to wait. And it was, it became so quickly like obvious. And it was like, it's like microtraumas, you know, that when I sold the business and it all blew up, that was one big, I can point to it, major disaster.
You know, 1,000 micro decisions that equal a big disaster, where an ineffective meeting, why'd you even have it? And death by meeting in COVID, right? We're all online where it's like, if this meeting isn't effective, then I'm really wasting my team's time here. And the fixed column, I very quickly was like, I wasn't curious, I didn't leave space, I didn't create psychological safety, I was a bully, I already had the answer, I was kind of acting like a dick. And then the other side where I showed up open and also the side just had more joy on it. I felt it was more fun.
Of course it did.
And the team started to comment like, Hey, just kind of noticing, like, you're asking a question, but you actually want to hear the answer versus just waiting to tell me what you had already thought of before you asked me. And I'm like, okay, remember that 360 I did back in like '18, '19? Well, it has— There it is. I've been working with some team members for a long time. For a long time. And those are the ones that give you the feedback. Yeah. It's good to have those people around. 100%.
But that little scorecard to me, it was 6, 8 weeks. I've still got it. And it was— it became— you couldn't deny it. To not embrace curiosity and a growth mindset at that point was to kind of choose ignorance. And I couldn't do it. But that level of self-awareness and that reflection, that's something I think back to self-curiosity, I think for leaders it's table stakes. I will call that out as a must.
Well, this brings us right to where I want to really dig into the concept of leadership. So curiosity as it relates to leadership. So first of all, though, what I want to understand is why— what's going on with leadership like right now? Like, why is the current model or the model that of just recent past, why is this not working anymore?
I think there's so many reasons. I think one, the sheer pace and the overwhelm. Yeah. I talk to leaders because I've had 500-some conversations. Right. But as you know, the conversation that happens right after the interview is sometimes the most— The gold. Rough air, right? Rough air, right? Like, okay, I'm burnt out. Like, you know, I'm starting to bring tea there for my team.
I don't have all these answers. Like, hey, leader, when's COVID going to be over? What? I don't know. But then you try to fill that space and you try to do that. So I think the speed and the pace of change is overwhelming. I also think that we have younger generations that are demanding something different. Just pay my dues and earn my way.
Yes.
And I have ideas and I have perspectives and I want to be included. And this model is not working for me. And it's like, you know, it's like hazing. I think leadership has this hazing culture. Well, I had to pay my dues, so you're going to pay your dues too. Gosh darn it. And yes, I'm being ageist a little bit in that statement. But I think that there's— and I think that group is who kind of I wrote the book for, really.
Like, anyone who's got an open mind and has got some critical thinking around themselves is who the book is. But if you're in that early stages of leadership, you've had good examples, you've had bad examples. Right. You're like, I need something that works for me. And when I was at that journey, that 35, 45 years old, which a couple years ago now, I always felt like I was one book away from getting it figured out. So I wanted this to be a book on that one book away journey. That's why I made it to be so tangible and to be a bit of a new narrative for a different generation of leaders. And I say that in jest because I've met people of all ages, seniorities that come and go.
This makes a lot of sense to me. It's not really the culture where I work, but I really want to start doing this because I've got people that are reporting to me that I can't dictate to them. They won't tolerate it. They'll just leave and go somewhere else. So I think there's a combination of things. I think we've got multi-generations. We've got a lot of things that we all know. But the sheer pace of change, the weight of certainty, it's impossible.
Like, I don't know what AI tool is going to show up next week, let alone 6 months from now for my 5-year plan. But if I'm going to be on a journey with a bunch of individuals that I've chosen or that we've chosen together or that we've inherited each other to be on this team, we're going to run into the unknown together. So if we create a little bit more space and safety for curiosity, I think we're going to be better equipped to tackle it. Yeah. And leaders are getting burnt out.
Well, okay.
So I do want to— They're getting dragged around by this idea of results.
But they really are. And that's actually one of the big takeaways from the book. I actually have it in all capitals here.
I love it.
The burnout piece, because I have witnessed that firsthand with so many leaders that they just, they're like, "I've got nothing left. I've got nothing left. I got nothing to give you. I've got no inspiration. I've got nothing." And that's so sad because these people have so much in there that's in there, but they're not in a position to give it anymore. And so what I love is this idea of leadership with curiosity and how that protects them from the burnout so that they continue to give all of that knowledge and expertise that they actually do have. 100%. Right? So talk a little bit about that.
So help me understand why leadership, when you're curious, helps prevent that burnout. Let's dig into that a bit more.
Well, it takes the bricks out of your backpack and lets other people carry the bricks. I want to be collaborative. 100%. And some leaders I think are inherently, they just wake up that way. I want to hear what you think. And some don't. And I get it. We have people that think out loud.
We have people that think on the quiet. We have people that are the loud in the meeting, the people that go, hey, I've had 24 hours to think about it. I want to get back And I appreciate that we have all different shapes and sizes and you can use all this personality profiles. All that aside, I think curiosity can also facilitate it. And I'm a big advocate of like, it's okay to fake it a little bit. This isn't my natural way to show up, but I'm curious, Leah, what do you think about what we should do here? It's amazing how your team will be like, oh, oh, well, we'll think. Well, shit. Well, I have some ideas actually.
And the power of even being deliberate about it. And I joke about it. Fake it. It's okay to fake it till you make it. And I think curiosity is a fabulous tool, especially for leaders softeners that are so used to like, I must show up with having this fully baked. Be surprised at how quick your team will jump in and fill that space if you create it for them. And I love that I'm curious. I learned this years ago using softeners and I'm curious is one of the softeners I learned of like, what do you think about this? I'm curious.
What's your perspective on what we should do? Just like no boundaries. Just throw it out there. Some people are dying to do that. Other people need permission. But you need to create a little bit of space for that. So from a leader perspective, it's like if you and I got to, you know, okay, we're going to move this table, this desk. Can I get a hand? There's a sofa behind you. If I try to lift, especially now with my back, I can't move that by myself.
I've got to move it with you. And the problems we have to move inside our organizations are like moving by yourself. You got to get a few friends. You got to bring them in. You got to get their help because these are bigger problems. These are bigger ideas. Yes. And the quick stuff is there and there's lots of fast decision-making.
But the world is changing at a pace where it's like, whoa, we've never encountered this before and we don't have time. If I can't bring a team to bear on this as a leader, then it's all on me. It's not realistic. And I actually don't think you get the best outcome. Right. I don't have all the perspectives.
Yeah. Nobody does.
Just because I have a title on my door that says leader.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that permissibility for the leader to also show up.
But that's so interesting.
Yeah. Be okay to be blown away how quick your team wants to participate when you ask, when you open the door to them.
Yeah.
Yeah. And some leaders are like, of course I do that all the time. But there's a lot who don't. Yeah. So we're trying to talk to everybody on this journey, right?
What I'd like to do is actually just break it down into some tangible little examples of what that might look like in the workplace. So let's say it's Wednesday and, you know, right? And I'm showing up and maybe I'm the leader and maybe I'm just a little bit tired that day, but I got a big meeting and this is what we're going to be doing. And I'm going to practice some curiosity. What does that look like?
I think, well, it starts before the Wednesday. Okay. If I've got a big meeting coming up, it probably didn't get booked that morning.
Right.
Bring your team in. Do some brainstorming. Yeah. What do we think about this? What's our perspective? What would it be like if? Right. I'm curious, what would you do if we had no limitations? Yeah. Where are we getting called to react versus reflect? Right. How much of this is actually fact and how much is feeling? Is it really a big meeting or is that just what I feel? Yeah. There's so many ways to unpack it.
And peel it out. But you notice most of them come from questions.
Yes. Yeah.
Let's get in the room and like, okay, we're going to clean the slate. Yeah. We don't know anything about this upcoming meeting. Let's talk about it. What do we know? I love facts versus feelings. Okay. Oh my God. We draw so many lines.
What does that.
Mean? I feel that it didn't go well. Okay, well, what did you see that didn't— well, you know, actually, there was really nothing. The points. You know, or a perfect example of you hear a situation, you jump to a lot, you can often jump to a lot of conclusions. Sure. I've seen a great exercise done in a leadership room where it's like, okay, tell us the story. This is happening. That's happening.
I think this is going to happen. I think that's going to happen. Now you turn around. Okay, everyone, what did Leah say that was a fact and what was a feeling? Well, she felt that that person didn't want to do the job. She felt that the client was upset. She felt that we weren't going to be profitable. Factually, All we know that there's a meeting and that they want to talk to us. All the rest was feelings.
And I've seen that done in a room where it's like, oh, wow. Okay, so if we turn down the feeling volume a little bit, start unpacking the facts, and then get curious about what made us feel that way. Well, actually, we're a little bit concerned because we actually think internally we didn't deliver on that. Okay, let's unpack that. Where did we deliver? Where did we not? Has anyone really looked at the scope of work? I'm playing in our world.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, but has anyone looked at the scope of work? Oh no, well, let's go back to what we said we were going to do. So actually we did do everything we said. So where do you think there might be misalignment? Well, there was a scope change. Okay, then maybe that's actually what we're talking about. Oh, then this isn't that big of a meeting. Let's be prepared. Let's show up. And doing that in a collaborative way, because someone's always going to have a perspective.
Well, actually, you know, I had a conversation with them a couple of weeks ago and they said, yeah, but we didn't follow through or we didn't give them, we didn't document it. So maybe there's just they thought this and we thought that. Okay, that could be where we're actually at. What I found usually in those environments, when you unpack one and kind of make some space for the other, the feelings are often the bully in the situation. So get curious about like, okay, is this a feeling or is it a fact? And am I curious about where it came from? Because I'm not saying it's not legit. Like, we're entitled to have our gut feelings, for sure, but sometimes we can really get wrapped around the axle for something that actually was just made up in our head. So I think we hallucinate a But often you and I don't listen the same way. It's like, okay, I'm actually thinking this.
What have you— like, take that aside. What are you running into? Oh, I never thought of that that way. And I found that huge where I get, you know, into a bit of a thought bubble, into a little bit of a rumination cycle. Sure, sure. And oftentimes it's how I feel about something. It's rarely factual. And if I turn to my team members, they'll also have a completely different perspective on the situation. And if I give it some room to show up, it often downplays what often I would call ruminating, which is often, you know, unhealthy.
And that's where that cycle of getting into the spiral dive, going out and pulling it in and balancing those two things can make a huge difference. And I always anchor it in some type of questioning. Question myself, hey, where did you get this? Where did this idea show up? Did you make this up in your head? Maybe I did. Let me check with Leah.
Let's do it.
Let's do a pulse check. And let's pull it outside. Possibility language, make it big, open it up. If we didn't know anything, what might we think? And creating a little space to do that, it's amazing what can happen.
So what I heard there were a whole bunch of questions. But when you ask a question, inherently you have to be listening for the answer.
You do. Spoken like a true journalist.
Right? Can't help it. Long time in the biz. But inherently you're listening for the response. So I assume listening is a huge part of this if you're asking all those questions. You're not doing that for naught, right?
No. Are you waiting for your turn to speak or you're waiting to unpack and build on it?
Oh, interesting.
Which as a journalist, I would say is where your expertise lies. Like, oh, you said this, so now I'm going to do this. It's almost the latter. I'm like, oh, that's interesting. So if that's true, what about this?
Right.
It's funny. At Clearmotive, we have a policy. It's not a policy. That makes it sound very formal. We have a practice that if you and I are in the room together and we come up with this amazing idea, Yeah. It's the idea that we came up with. It's not the idea you or I came up with. Oh, so it's a we.
If you said it, it's probably because of something I said that triggered you to say this or vice versa. It's the build. It's the build. Oh, that's good. You think about leadership. Yeah. Okay. Take that into consideration.
Now I'm going to go off and like, oh, well, if you said that, you now got me thinking on something I wasn't even thinking about 2 minutes ago. And if you're doing a lot of brainstorming and, you know, and I remembered back to a time years ago where someone's like, wow, that was an amazing idea. Who came up with it? I was like, we came up with it. Everyone's like, oh, I think, but I think what Joe said it. I'm like, yeah, but Joe only said it because Jane said this and Karen said that. And then Frank said this and then, you know, that kind of a dynamic. And you think about curiosity, it's the riff. It's the build.
And if you're feeling a little bit more like, oh, I have to have the right answer, I have to be the leader, I have to show up. As soon as I started doing that, I stopped hearing anything you were saying. And that's, I think, really, really tricky. That internal voice can be The volume can be quite loud. But that's that comfort level of getting self-curious of like, I'm gonna show up, I'm legit wondering what you're gonna say. Which is great, you know, skill for an interviewer, journalist, podcaster. 'Cause I wanna build, you know, I wanna, I don't know where we're gonna go in 10 minutes 'cause I don't know what we're gonna talk about yet. And a lot of times if you create a little bit of that freedom as a leader, I think it's magical what can show up.
And your team walks away feeling so valued.
They do because they were heard.
Who doesn't love that?
Who doesn't love that? Okay, but here's the question I have. I'm imagining myself being this kind of big literary guy or literary gal.
I like how you went right to guy and you went from there.
And I met literary gal. Same thing. And they're thinking, oh, well, this will be fine for a creative space or a creative company or a creative organization. We do, I don't know, whatever it is. That's not the case. You're saying this applies across the board.
100% I do.
Okay, why?
Because we're all solving bigger problems than what's in front of us in the moment. And technical expertise, I think, is a great place for this because you can get into such a rabbit hole of your technical— the deeper you are into something, sometimes the less you see perspective. And that's not always true. I'm speaking, but as a leader, if you've got a whole bunch of very technical people in the room, And I'm talking from— I'm looking at the elephant from this side and you're looking at it from that side, but you're looking at it from above. And, oh my goodness, like we're all seeing the perspective of this elephant. But if we look at it together, I think that that's an amazing, powerful leader to go, oh, let's bring it up a little bit. Hey, okay, I love what you're saying. And absolutely, technically, this is the right way to do it.
What if we looked at it this way? What if we shifted to another perspective? The what if? And I'm saying that that's the question. But I think that's also, you know, sometimes as a leader, you're also just a facilitator. Because depending on where you are and how and the environment you work on, every single person in that room is probably smarter at their level of their expertise specifically than you are. So are you the guy running the orchestra? Yeah, I was just trying to figure out words. The maestro? Who is that? I'm not sure. Thank you. My brain is like, what's this word? I know what you mean. Are you the maestro in that environment? And I think no better way to be curious, create space for all those individuals to show up with their expertise.
It's not just creative, but What problems aren't creative these days in a way?
I mean, true, right?
Scope and scale of the problems we're trying to solve as a province, as a country, as individual organizations, competition from abroad, competition from technology. We're all, we're all being disrupted in some, in some way. The ability to look at things from other perspectives. And a leader, I think part of that leader superpower is creating the space for all those experts, no matter who they are or what or how they show up, to be able to go, Oh, together we made something bigger. Right. Not Joe said this idea and Frank said that idea and we're going to pit them against each other. Whoa. I'd be curious, what would it be like if we actually took some of that and applied it to that? Would that— oh, that wouldn't even work.
But now that you say that and get that going. So I think the leader as the maestro, especially when everyone in the room is smarter than you. Right.
Technically, because they should be. They should be.
Yes. And your job as a leader so much is to know what the bigger goal is, but also be able to elevate people up into that space to allow them to have the best version of themselves show up.
For sure.
Shutting that down with, "I have all the answers," doesn't do that.
It doesn't work. No, it doesn't.
It doesn't work. And nobody likes that. I don't like that.
People don't feel good in that situation. No. Right? Yeah, agreed.
Okay. All the engineers just rolled their eyes. Feels.
Feels. Exactly.
Don't care. Yeah, I'm not comfortable with this feeling thing. Even engineers and accountants are human.
That's right. That's right.
Right? Because we're all human.
100%.
Yes. Okay. And being valued is so critical.
It's so true. You did mention a little bit here that if a leader is going to try this out, that they can fake it a little bit until they make it.
I think so. Yeah.
Absolutely. And you do give in the book, which I really liked, very practical sort of tools that you can practice and try and then check yourself against them to see, okay, did that work? Did it not work?
I tried to make it very like on a Wednesday, I wanted this book to be valuable. That's right. Not just in some intellectual exercise while you're sipping wine overlooking the lower valley and you're like, "Oh, I'm feeling philosophical about curiosity." It's got to show up in the real world.
It doesn't work for me. Agreed. But can we just drill down on a couple of those little points? So one that I really liked, we sort of mentioned it very quickly, which was creating, first of all, a space of psychological safety. What is that?
What does that mean? Do people feel comfortable to step up and be themselves? And that's not, hey, let's make psychological safety, let's talk about our feelings. I've had a lot of leaders been like, psychological safety, what is that? We're going to sit around and talk about our feelings? I like to look at it as, do people feel safe to dissent?
Safe to dissent? Yeah. Okay, what do you mean by that?
Well, I'm the leader. This is what we've all agreed on, right? We're good. We've had a meeting today. And also, I want to be clear, sooner or later someone has to move things forward. This isn't curiosity for fun. This isn't like— I always joke, if you and I are going to a movie tonight, if we can't pick a movie, we'll miss the movie. Right. That's business.
We can't just ask questions like for months. Sooner or later we have to make a decision. So I do want to land this in some type of reality. So imagine now you've had a great brainstorming session. You feel it's great. You're the leader. You've facilitated. You've brought in all the experts.
You've beat up an idea. You've created possibility. And someone— and we're like, okay, this is where we're going. Most of the room is nodding. And you're like, all right, we got to go because we're busy. Like it's a busy day. I got to go. Meeting's over.
But this is how we're going to go forward. Does anyone have anything left they want to add? If people feel safe enough to go, actually, you know what? I'm not sure if I'm on board with this idea, and here's why. That to me is such a simple— and psychological safety has maybe a more formal definition. But to me, if people feel safe enough to go, you know, I don't know, actually, I think we're missing something here. And then you as a leader have a real moment right there. Like, because remember, we don't want to miss the movie. You know, like, we have to make a decision because we have to move things forward. But how you treat that next, I think, really tells— because everyone's watching.
Everybody's going to watch how you respond.
What's going to happen next? You're like, okay, you know what? That's valid because you took— you had safety, that you felt safe enough to open your mouth and to say something. How do we deal with that next? Maybe it's like we have to— maybe timing-wise we need to stop the meeting. But how you allow that to— like, that's a really valid point. You know what? Does everybody have an extra 10? Can we, can we, can we beat this up a little bit? Can we have some fun with this? There's so many ways to do it, and I don't want to get too prescriptive, right? But what do you do as a leader when you're like, oh, I need to go, I'm so out of time, like, shit. And that's what happens, right?
Yeah, of course.
You don't have time 'cause life is compressing and my day is busy and I'm already burnt out as it is. Did someone feel safe? Did someone feel safe 10 minutes earlier to suggest like, actually, you know what, I gotta have a brain scream here. I'm gonna throw it out. I'm gonna put it out there in that room. I think dissension is such a powerful litmus test. You know, I always joke, you can remember back when we were in school, way back when, in the one-room schoolhouse, when that person would come in and just observe in the back corner. Oh yeah, everybody's like, What is— who's.
Like, what's going on?
Yeah, totally. Think of yourself sitting in a boardroom and watching what happens. A boardroom that has psychological safety has free flow of ideas, has people saying kind of crazy stuff. I got this feedback once from a consultant we were working with. He's like, Tyler, I like working with you and your team. So why's that? Because none of them are afraid to tell you that they think you're wrong. I was like, touché. He's like, that's not always the case.
The CEO, you know, I joke, the hippo, the highest paid person's opinion. Hippo speaks, everyone's like, because you said so. Like, actually, wait, whoa, really? And it levels out. And that's not to abdicate decision-making or abdicate the need to make a decision. But if you sit back in that room and you're the observer in the elementary school classroom and you're like, wow, nobody's scared to talk here. People like— and the extroverts and the introverts, everyone has it. I don't want to talk about that because some of us like to speak a lot. Maybe you and I.
Some of us like to think about our ideas. But do we create space for that? Do we have a mechanism for those individuals who are like, hey, we kind of landed on this. "but if you've got some afterthoughts, 'cause I know some of you are gonna go home and think about this, reach out to me afterwards. Let's beat it up and let's talk about it. Like, the door is open." And I think it sounds— I make it sound so nonchalant and easy, but you can sit in the corner of that room and you can observe it, or you can go, "Ooh, ouch, that just got shut down." And everyone just went, "Ooh, it's not free to dissent around here.".
"Oh, I'm not gonna do that next time.".
Yeah, absolutely. 'Cause culture isn't what you put on the wall.
It's how— It's how you behave.
This is how shit gets done around here. This is how stuff doesn't get done around here. And I don't think psychological safety is fluffy or it's about sitting around talking about your feelings. It's people feeling safe contribute. And if you're a leader and you're like, remember your question earlier, guys, I am, I am like bagged today. Like I had a rough, like, so I'm gonna, I'm in this room, but I really want to hear what you all have to say. I'm just going to take a moment here. Everyone's like, oh, we have permission to, to like say we're not like 5 out of 5s and we have permission to show up.
And some leaders are cringed that I just said that, right? Oh, but also some leaders or some follow, some people that follow me are going to go, oh, you're also human. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah, I guess I can be human too. Right. Leading by example is the best way. It's the only way. It's the only way. Yeah.
And I don't always get it right, but I'm— but when I do it, I'm like, oh yeah. Or I see one of my team lead and I'm like, oh, I'm inspired by that. That's awesome. Like, thank you. I, you know, I have some young staff and I have some young friends. Their willingness to share their emotional state in their mid-20s was not where mine was.
Oh, agreed.
I choose to get blown away by it on a regular basis. Like, yeah, you know, My wife's cousin, my cousin, I guess, turned 25 yesterday. And I asked her, I said, she's like, "Oh, this is what my goals are for 25." I said, "What do you wanna leave behind?" And she goes, "You know, that habit of blaming myself for everything that goes wrong around me." I was like, "What a—" I didn't have insights like that when I was 25. No. But imagine creating space like that for your team and like, "Wow, okay, that's awesome. So how about next time that that happens to you here, just let me know and let's chat about it and.
Let'S work through it." Yeah.
It doesn't take hours. It takes minutes. But that little bit of safety and space, you're gonna have the loyalty and the buy-in and the effort and energy that's gonna come from a team that feels that way, I believe, is your 10x while you're tackling the world's problems.
Yeah. 'Cause you're showing up as your authentic self.
Yeah. And you're allowing them to as well.
Well, that's what happens. Not the version. That's the spillout.
Yeah. 100%.
Yes. Oh, I love that. Another one that I loved, one of these little like, okay, you can actually practice this, is creating those curiosity checkpoints. I love that because it's actually saying we're going to put this into practice. We're just going to actually check ourselves when it comes to our curiosity. Can you help me understand a little bit of what those are?
I used to have some friends that I used to hike with, and hiking is an interesting thing. Everyone's enthusiastic at the start, but there's a journey that you go on, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a good way to think about a day in the life on a Wednesday. And one of them, I would be like, hey, like, you know, a couple hours in, Headspace check. Hey, how's it— where's everybody at? Who's struggling? Who's like wants to make the mountain bigger? Who wants to make the mountain smaller? Like that kind of a thing. And that's what inspired me, that Headspace check. Like, hey, quick curiosity check here. What are we asking? What are we assuming? What are we taking for granted? Where are we acting when we should be reflecting? What are we basing a major point of our decision on that's actually not a fact, it's kind of a feeling? But giving it permission.
It's like the rutabaga. It's like the safety word. But I remember from my friend in the hiking, like, it's Headspace check. Where are we at? Who wants to make the mountain bigger? Who wants to make it smaller? That's what they used to say. And I love it.
I love that.
Because it's like, whoa, okay, what are we making bigger here that we could make smaller? And it's so funny because the first time you do it, it feels awkward and weird.
Sure.
Because you feel like you're doing some weird thing. And then we're going to do drum circles and we're all going to hug. No, it's not what I mean. I'm playing that into because it's easy to, I think sometimes if you're new to this, you devalue it. You put it in that fluffy bucket. Right. I think it's the opposite of fluffy. It takes a lot of courage.
And the team will be like, oh yeah, I think we're good. I think we're on it. And sometimes it's nothing. Sometimes someone's like, actually, this has really been bugging me. We kind of accept it as a truth. Is it? The experts said. What experts? All people are doing this. What do you mean all people? These broad sweeping statements that sometimes I think get proliferated in corporate culture of like, oh, everyone's doing it this way.
Are they?
The broad sweeping hand motions.
How do we know this?
Is that actually real? Experts say, are we? Sometimes data, data lies. Data can be manipulated. Being willing to question. And I think doing that little Headspace check, and I played it as a curiosity check from my friend who— from the hiking trips. Yeah. What are we making? Who wants to make it bigger?
Who wants to make it smaller?
I love that. Oh my God, I wish this hike was already over. Okay. Like, do we want to adjust where we're at? Yeah. And then all of a sudden it's a team hike, not a bunch of individuals suffering alone.
But again, you're creating that space for people to reflect on how they're doing at that moment and share it.
It's kind of playful.
Yeah. And share it. Okay. So you alluded to this a little bit, but I really want to dig into this because I think this is kind of the value point of this entire book, which is this is not a soft skill. You've actually now proven, let's start with even just a clear motive, that this methodology, if you will, actually works. How have you done that?
What have you seen? I'm going to be blunt. Financial returns. Improvement in culture, lower turnover, staff engagement, like right across the board. And there's a series of, you know, we went remote, we went through COVID, we changed our culture. As I started to show up differently and creating a little bit more space, we brought in 2 new members of the leadership team. So we bolted some new people together. We did a lot of things that are hard in a business. Went from this many, we cut our staff in half.
We went to more contractors. We went full remote from office. We kept a lot of the same clients. So, you know, there's a tendency to stay the same. And we were very fortunate and I feel blessed we've had long-term clients. Long-term clients like you to be like you were.
I'm sure.
But still change enough that we know you're doing exciting things. Like it's a very tricky balance, right, in those relationships. Sometimes people change out over there.. And we were able to— I've just seen the level of collaboration, the level of buy-in, the commitment, like all the things that, like, you know, be curious to learn is one of our values. So we changed our values to be observable behaviors.
Observable behaviors. Okay.
So stuff you can actually see.
Be accountable.
Okay. Be helpful. Yeah. Be resourceful. Be curious to learn and speak up. I purposely didn't even define them at first. I just went around and said, everybody, what does that mean to you? And they all got it right. Being accountable means this.
Being resourceful. Oh, well, if I don't know the answer, I can go online. I can find out. Yes. Being curious. We started with being curious, but then we changed it. We said, no, it's not just being curious because that's— it can be a little bit surface level. It was being curious to learn because we're in an industry like so many, but it's being changed at a rapid pace.
Sure. From tech to channels to what works, what doesn't work. If you're not curious to learn or you're trying to compartmentalize everything you do in our world to your 40-hour workweek, you've got to have a passion a little bit beyond. Because it's just too much. And then, and then speak up. Hey, you know what? This isn't working for me. Hey, you know what? Like, I don't think we have all the right information. As we put those in place, and I would say it didn't happen overnight, but our team has embraced those.
And I also, as a leader, started to show up a little less fixed, a little less man on the mountain with riding the horse in with all the answers and the deep voice, apparently, to being a little like, I don't know. Or like, yeah, wow, this is actually— I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by this. Or, hey, what do you think? I was like, let's open it up. Let's actually set the team up. And I saw our leadership team gel. I saw the financial, positive financial impact in terms of just, we just became more profitable. Our team was able to literally do more with less. And I, you know, I'll be very specific here, but I looked at some numbers from 2016 Clearmotive to 2025 Clearmotive year to date.
And we had a significant increase in our profit margin with 10 less full-time staff. What's going on there? The team is clearly feeling engaged. And I've talked to some of them, like they're feeling empowered. They love their jobs. They like, I'm given the tools to do what I do. I can— my voice is heard. If I have an opinion on how to do something better, people listen to me. And I would have thought we were doing that before, but something— there's something in the water, right? It's absolutely changed.
And I think that as our world continues to be, you know, barraged by new technologies— and let's just throw AI around as an acronym— that fear and that balance, if you have an open culture of like, whoa, this is kind of blowing me away, let's go experiment, let's be curious as hell about what's going on with this, because half of it you can kind of dismiss But there's some of it you shouldn't. And for us, I've seen it incredibly tangible. And I've seen a lot of leaders that I've chatted to, especially leaders that moved into new roles. And again, I'm going to get into the who's who. They might be on the show later. We'll see. Where they're like, whoa, this was a top-down leadership culture. I brought in collaboration and questioning.
And it took a while before people would be like, why are you asking me? Why aren't you just telling me what to do? Right. Because that's not what I believe in. So it's an interesting— like, it can be a serious power switch if you've got a top-down command and control style leadership structure and you start implementing this. That's why it's a, you know, kind of a crawl, walk, long-run perspective. Right. So I got really specific there to.
Give you some tangible answers. No, but that's great because I want to know, how do you know that? How did you actually measure that this curiosity principle was actually driving better business?
Personally, yes. And I don't have them memorized, but we did include just the right sprinkling of studies in there. I think the Microsoft story is phenomenal.
Well, and I was just going to.
Say— The Microsoft story is phenomenal. We all know Microsoft as being a bit of a command and control, best idea Winds and Culture to bringing on a leader, Satya Nadella, whose favorite book was Mindset by Carol Dweck. So I was like, "Well, apparently I'm in good company here.".
But what you're suggesting is that this isn't just a Clearomotive thing. There are now giant organizations that have adopted this thinking and have seen the.
Results, the positive results. And it took Microsoft from being a billion-dollar company to a trillion-dollar company. Which is nuts. It's just, yeah, you can't even fathom how big is that. Stack. But if you look at the way they engaged, you look at the customer centricity, there's lots of little— and I think it's actually one of the— it's a very uncelebrated success story. If you go digging for it, but it's not out making the headlines in the same way that some other stories might be. And I don't know why or what, but when I started digging around, I started stumbling into his story multiple times in terms of his open style of leadership, his reaching out to fellow CEOs, professional sports teams, like, what are you seeing? What startup are you excited about? It's like just asking questions.
I had my own version with the podcast, which when I held them up together, I'm like, I see those parallels as where it kind of took me.
Down the similar path. Yeah. You get to do a little pattern.
Recognition after a while. It was fun.
I was like, okay, validated. Totally. 100%. Okay. So as we come towards the end of this conversation and people are reading this book and you've got the podcast out in the world, what do you hope people take away.
From this? Give yourself permission. If you're a leader, give yourself permission. All those little things that maybe you didn't think were what leadership should be, that like having all the answers, like showing up, like carrying all the bricks in your, in your own backpack. I think giving yourself permission is such a huge thing. I could have wrote this whole book about self-curiosity. Yeah. Because as a leader, how you show up in the environment, what you bring, the stories you've told yourself, the environments you've been in before, the narrative that we all have of the shoulds. You know, I should act this way and I should know this and I should know that.
Right. Giving yourself a little bit of permission as a human being who happens to be a leader first to try things a little bit differently and get a little bit more curious with yourself. And you're like, ah, I'm kind of feeling a little bit like I got imposter syndrome and I gotta feel a little bit like, shit, I should have all the answers, or I'm a little burnt out. I think it's okay to give yourself permission. I think it all starts with a journey of self, because if you show up credible and you show up authentic the mirror of authenticity comes right. You know, I wrote it in the book. My business partner said this years ago. I've never forgotten it.
We wait for trust to become vulnerable. But the second we show a little bit of vulnerability, it instantly creates trust.
Yeah, it does.
And whether you read Patrick Lencioni or just believe in the idea, trust is at the base of the pyramid. With leadership, you have a little bit of trust in yourself that, you know what, I figured this out before, I'll figure it out again. Yeah. But include some other people in the journey. They want to go on that journey with you. Yeah. You just got to let them in.
You got to let them in. Okay, cool. And I guess this is the first of many podcasts related to the book. Can you tell us a little bit about what people can expect to hear on this Curious as Hell podcast?
Absolutely. This is— I'm really quite excited about this because after doing— I'm like, I'm getting excited. After 600+ episodes between They Just Get It and Collision's YYC, there was kind of a— I'll be honest, we took— we went for volume. There were so many cool stories to tell in Alberta, economic transformation in the province of Alberta. Go, go out into the world. 533, you know, conversations later, I was like, okay, I could still have them. But it wasn't curated in the sense of like a narrative. So, you know, the risk of certainty is the theme that we're going to really put out there for season 1 of this.
It's going to be 7 episodes. And it's more, if I may be so bold, more of a Netflix series than it is a just like, oh, random so-and-so with random so-and-so. Underpinning was economic transformation. Alberta. We're really going to build the narrative, and we're going to start with a lot about the self. Then we're going to bring into, like, the— like, a lot of what you did today. Let's start at the foundation. Let's bring it into the arc of the tools and the tactics.
And then how do we land it when it comes to actually building a culture of curiosity? And I'm going to do that with leaders that have been through the journey, that have skinned knees, that have succeeded and have failed, but more importantly, that are willing to be vulnerable and come on and have honest conversations, but also still land it on a Wednesday. Yes. And I love that. I'm gonna use that, go forward. It's a Wednesday and you're in the office. Yes. And certainty sits on the table and curiosity sits over here. How do you balance those two? I'm just playing with those.
And there's so much. How do you create psychological safety? What about the emotional intelligence when maybe you didn't show up as your best self? What did you do? What about coaching? Do you believe in it? What do you— I really want to get into the nuts and bolts of what real leaders do in today's world around— because remember, curiosity isn't just I'm going to choose to be curious. You also create a state of curiosity. There's a lot of things required, like we've talked about today, the psychological safety, the space and the time, the emotional intelligence to allow curiosity to thrive. So, so much about what I want to get to with these leaders is what's your version of how you created space for curiosity in your organization? And how did that show up? What did you do that helped it? What'd you do that hurt it? And then what are some of the outcomes that you got? So it's about creating a state of curiosity. And I'm really— I'm sorry, I'm super curious to talk with leaders that that are willing to show up and be real so that the audience can walk away going, "Okay, I can try a piece of that. I can just try a bite of that cake and see what it tastes like and play around with it on a Wednesday.".
I love it. Tyler, I think we're all looking forward to it.
Thanks for this. Leah, it was absolutely my pleasure. Thanks. Thank you so much. It was a privilege and an honor to be interviewed by such a consummate professional as yourself.
Lots of fun.