Why are young men going to church?

Why are young men going to church more? And how can the Church respond to the crisis of masculinity facing today’s Gen Z? 

In this episode, Dr Andrew Ollerton and Dr Rhiannon McAleer are joined by Luke Taylor, Researcher at The Centre for Social Justice (CSJ), and John Funnell, Pastor at Noddfa Church. 

Together, they uncover key insights from CSJ’s Lost Boys report – including the startling finding that boys are now more likely to own a smartphone than to live with their dad – before sharing how young men are finding meaning, purpose and connection within the Church. 

Hit play to discover tangible ways that your church can support today’s young men through healthy mentoring.

Timestamps

• (00:00) - Intro
• (01:30) - Young men are returning to church
• (02:38) - What The Quiet Revival says about young men
• (04:00) - An overview of The Lost Boys report
• (07:20) - How are young men viewed in society?
• (08:20) - What is causing men to become 'lost'?
• (09:30) - Why are young men returning to church?
• (11:55) - Do voices outside the Church speak louder to men than within the Church?
• (12:50) - Toxic masculinity vs positive masculinity
• (14:15) - Is this indicative of a turn towards conservatism?
• (15:40) - How does the Church help with the crisis of masculinity?
• (19:20) - How can the Church mentor young men?
• (20:50) - Introducing John Funnell
• (23:00) - What is attracting young men to church?
• (27:25) - How are young men engaging with the Bible?
• (32:30) - What questions are men bringing to the Bible?
• (34:30) - Applying the Bible in everyday life
• (36:00) - How do we start talking about the Bible?
• (38:30) - Top tips for helping young men at church

The Bible Course New Edition:
This new and improved, free small group resource will help you and your church discover how Bible characters, stories, and themes are connected, from Genesis to Revelation.
Find out more

The Lost Boys Report
Read the full report from The Centre for Social Justice.

What God can do with a little oil: Church Growth in a Desperate Situation
Order John's book

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The Quiet Revival Podcast is brought to you by Bible Society, a charity that translates, publishes, and distributes the Bible. We communicate its relevance and invite people to experience the transforming power of Scripture today. Visit our website to find out more. 

 

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This is a Bible Society podcast, but it’s also a conversation between people exploring the Bible and culture together. We won’t get everything right – and we won’t always agree. Please be patient with us and join us on the journey. Bible Society is very proud of its generous orthodoxy.

Creators and Guests

Host

Dr Andrew Ollerton

Bible Engagement Lead at Bible Society, theologian, author of The Bible Course and multiple books.

Host

Dr Rhiannon McAleer

Co-author of The Quiet Revival and Director of Research and Impact at Bible Society

Guest

John Funnell

Pastor of Noddfa Church, author and Principle of Valleys School of Theology

Guest

Luke Taylor

Researcher at The Centre for Social Justice

What is The Quiet Revival Podcast?

The Quiet Revival report has taken the UK by storm. But how is your church responding to this missional moment? And how can you invite today’s spiritually open Gen Z to experience Scripture?

Join Dr Andrew Ollerton and Dr Rhiannon McAleer, co-author of The Quiet Revival report, as they unpack the data from our report, investigate how Scripture is speaking to the societal challenges of our day, and share a roadmap to increasing confidence in the Bible in your community.

With our research showing 26 per cent of people in England and Wales are interested in discovering more about Bible, this podcast will inspire, encourage and equip you to discover your place in The Quiet Revival. Hit play today.

Luke Taylor (00:00)
there's two and a half million kids in the UK growing up without a father in their home.

boys are now more likely to own a smartphone than they live with their

where are their positive male role models? All you've spoken about is Andrew Tate, how are we going to get the trust of adults back into their

Andrew Ollerton (00:11)
outside the church, there are all these different ways that a man can try and find

response to this crisis of masculinity. But obviously the church is looking at thinking, but what do we do?

Luke Taylor (00:19)
Andrew Tate I think in some ways quite a useful figure because it means when we talk about toxic masculinity, we can say that's what it is.

But the problem that we have is, and I think maybe the church is well suited to try this, is when we talk about positive masculinity, no one quite knows what they

Rhiannon McAleer (00:33)
the word that came up for me was formation and churches really kind of leaning into their role here to help

boys transition into young men.

John Funnell (00:42)
we're finding with these men is when they're valued and adopted as sons of the church, they live that newfound value out

we're seeing entire families transformed by the work of the

Debate the end times all you want. How does that make you be a better father

simple application that is supported with prayer works.

Andrew Ollerton (01:04)
your final top tip for church leaders who meet these

men? are you saying?

John Funnell (01:08)
give him a job. And I don't mean a paid job.

young men need value, they need purpose. In a world that doesn't trust them, in a world that doesn't value them, trust them and value them.

Andrew Ollerton (01:20)
Hey, I'm Andrew Ollerton, welcome back to the Quiet Revival podcast. Today I'm joined again by Rhiannon McAleer, and we're going to have a great conversation with two guests this time about one of the major themes of the Quiet Revival.

Rhiannon McAleer (01:32)
Yes we are, today we're deep diving into the theme of young men returning to church.

This is something which is fantastic to see as it really stands out against what is expected and it's amazing to see a hunger for God among this group of young people. This is something my co-author Rob has done a lot of work on, we're really excited to have conversations with both Luke Taylor from the Centre for Social Justice and Pastor John Funnell today to look into this theme a bit more.

Andrew Ollerton (01:59)
young men turning up at church, and reading the Bible, just sounds too good to be true, doesn't it? But we also know this is actually coming from a deep place. There's actually a reason why there's something of a crisis of masculinity unfolding. So we're looking forward to digging into why is this happening? What is going on with young men and how can we be part of the solution? But first up, Rhiannon, just share a little bit more. What does the quiet revival show us? What does that research show us about what's happening with young men particularly?

Rhiannon McAleer (02:24)
Well yeah, thanks Andrew. The quiet revival has got a very

dimension

it. we see across the dataset this rise in young adults saying they're going to church regularly, but it is particularly striking among young men. So back in 2018 when we did the survey, just 4 % of young men, that's those aged 18 to 24, were saying they were attending church at least once a month.

by the 2024 survey that had gone up fivefold. It was absolutely massive, took my breath away, to be something that is a topic of conversation whenever I'm out and about talking to people. And we also see this cropping up in other places as well throughout the data set, which is slightly less talked about, but among our young adults who...

Andrew Ollerton (02:54)
Wow. Yeah.

Rhiannon McAleer (03:13)
aren't currently going to church, when we ask them about, you want to know more about the Bible, young men are saying yes at far greater rates than young women.

Andrew Ollerton (03:22)
Yeah, amazing isn't it? 21 % of young men in England and Wales are saying they're going to church once a month or more. It's clear that this crisis of masculinity is turning people to the church and saying, can you help? And we want to be part of that solution and be part of their journey. So we're delighted to have these two conversations with people who are ideally placed to help us see what our response should be at this critical moment for young men, especially. So let's get into it.

Rhiannon McAleer (03:48)
Well, Luke, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Can you give us a bit of an introduction to who you are and what you do?

Luke Taylor (03:56)
Yeah, sure. thanks for having me. So I'm Luke Taylor. I'm 24 and recently married to Jess, living in London and work at the Centre for Social Justice, which is a think tank based in Westminster, tackling issues of inequality, social justice, that kind of thing.

Andrew Ollerton (04:12)
Thanks Luke, congratulations to you and Jess. It's great to have you on the podcast. It's been great to get to know you a little bit recently and that's really come about because I read the Lost Boys report and I realized we had a mutual connection so it reached out to you. But I read it and I must admit I found it really sobering. really encourage our listeners, you can download the report for free, the Lost Boys report.

I know it hit some headlines as well with Gareth Southgate, right? The former England manager, he was particularly drawing attention to it

on the BBC. So yeah, but I found it quite emotional, to be quite honest, because it's pretty sobering reading on some of the differences between how young men are experiencing life in our modern moment. Could you just kind of give us a little bit of an overview and perhaps particularly some of the headlines of what has hit home and why this report has hit the headlines?

Luke Taylor (04:57)
Yeah, and it was quite fortunate timing in some ways. So obviously Gareth talked about it. we, think within the space of a few weeks of it coming out, also had Adolescence coming, which I think put on everyone's radar, something's going on with young boys. Yeah, so I mean, the report focused on six themes. We wanted to try and cover some of the big aspects in life that going to affect people. So we looked at work, school, family life.

Andrew Ollerton (05:06)
Yeah.

Luke Taylor (05:18)
health, crime, then the online world. So kind of porn and technology, that kind of thing. And basically found that in all of them, young men were struggling. And it came about because we so we're connected through the CSJ to about 800 charities. And for the last year or so, kind of been telling us the same thing that something's going on with our boys. So we did this research, just tried to kind of quantify a feeling. Is there something actually happening?

The kind of thing that the newspapers ran with was that the pay gap has reversed. So young women are now earning more than young men. In some ways, doesn't matter too much who's earning more, but actually is that symptomatic of a wider change because it's not happened before? And what we also found is that when we looked at those who are not in education, employment or training, so NEET. young men are now more likely to be NEET than women, something that's not really happened before either. And since COVID, the number of men who have been NEET from between the age of 16 and 24, at least.

It jumped up by 40 % and in the same time frame, it went up by just 7 % for women. So something really happening there to do with access to work. And then in schools, boys are behind from nursery all the way to university.

But actually, when you look slightly more on the fringes, we look at things like exclusion rates. Boys are twice as likely to be excluded. If you're a poor boy, so you're on free school meals, it jumps up by like five or six times. Family life, there's two and a half million kids in the UK growing up without a father in their home.

The kind of impacts of that are wide, wide ranging. Health wise, boys about three and half times more likely to take their own lives than girls at pretty much every age group. Crime, 97 % of the criminal prison population is male. And that's the same in the kind of juvenile age.

And then the last one, think one of the things that really got picked up on through the report was that boys are now more likely to own a smartphone than they live with their dad. So, you every kid from the age of 12 has a phone. And then what are they doing on their phones? You know, by the age of 13, most kids are watching porn That's kind of a little smattering. So it's not very fun, but it does paint a pretty bleak picture of what's going on with the young man.

Andrew Ollerton (07:07)
Nice.

Rhiannon McAleer (07:10)
Thanks so much, Luke. mean, it's really sobering what you lay out for us. It got massive publicity, which is fantastic. And it felt to me when I read it like a real, state of the nation. what have you seen since? What's come out the way people talking about boys and young men?

Luke Taylor (07:26)
I think part of the reason it landed quite well is because there's a lot of organisations working on young men or men's issues. But they're kind of working, I think, from one step too far, which is that we need to solve these problems. When in reality, I don't think a lot of people recognise the issue in the first place. So we didn't come along saying, you know, we've got to do this and we've got to do that. Here are all our solutions. It was much more.

let's try and get a compendium of statistics, this burning platform that we can speak from later. And because of that, meant that people could come in and give their own opinions on it or say we need to start doing X, Y, Z. And we're quite happy for people to do that. But we wanted to actually just provide a platform. Everyone's on the same page. This is what's happening. Let's work from here. And I think that really helped.

Andrew Ollerton (08:08)
And Luke, just in terms of what you think is behind all of the evidence that you've been putting out is likely to cause a young man, to become a lost boy? What would you see as the top sort of three or whatever drivers or predictors of this sad predicament that a lot of young men end up in?

Luke Taylor (08:26)
Yeah, I mean, I think it's important to say that one of the things we like to talk about is data is not destiny. know, even if you've got all these things that are going on in your life, it does not predict what your outcomes will be. But we can look at trends, having said that. I mean, I think there's a few themes in there that are particularly more early years related, and that is going to check your trajectory a lot more than others. So particularly looking at things like your home life, so, you know, your mum and your dad, your schooling.

Andrew Ollerton (08:31)
Mm-hmm.

Luke Taylor (08:51)
you know, how well do do at school? Do you start off strong or not? Do you get excluded? Those kinds of things. And then also your relationship to technology. So I think, and actually, those are the things that particularly young people are doing more and more. Where are they spending their time? They're at home, they're at school or they're online. And if you can sort those things out and have healthy relationships with those, it's going to really set you up quite

Andrew Ollerton (09:11)
So almost do you have a positive relationship with your father? Do you have a positive relationship with school? And

you manage rather than be managed by your phone? So something like that are gonna be the key questions.

Rhiannon McAleer (09:23)
And I think what the report does ⁓ so well is it really illustrates the landscape young men and boys are learning to navigate.

I don't know if we can maybe have a little look at religion, if that's okay. It's come up a lot in our report around a growth in young men exploring Christianity. And this had come out even before the quiet revival research, that we were hearing from church leaders on the ground that young men are turning up. And that was a real change to...

what we've been seeing for decades where religion was more associated with being female I wonder, did you hear anything about this maybe when you were doing your I just wonder what you make of that trend. Why do you think there might be this growing interest in Christianity among young men?

Luke Taylor (10:05)
So in terms of whether or not we came across it during the research, not really. So I think the only way in which we did was in terms of the kind of places that men would go for community and male spaces and actually church was quite a big one within that. So we looked at over the last 50 years, kind of changing trends of places that men would often go. And you think of kind of unions or sports and youth clubs or pubs.

And then churches actually, and all of those quite big structures that used to really bring in young men and raise them up with, you the intergenerational friendships, young to old, they've all really declined in the last 50 years. And actually churches would come up as potentially that's the space we can restore that gives men that kind of meaning, the purpose, the connection actually. And then in terms of why men are going back to church,

I do think a lot of it is, I mean, even in the work that we've done, a lot of it's about a sense of purposelessness. We don't have meaning, I don't have that connection. And actually there's a bit of sense of hopelessness as well. And actually if there's a space in society that's offering something like that, like the church would be, then that's a really attractive thing for young men who actually are feeling, I think, quite hard done by at the moment. One of the things that we found in our focus groups, actually with young men was

there's a frustration that they had that whenever we talked about young men in the media or in culture, it would be, you know, let's solve young men so that we can actually solve this other issue. And I think that really grated on young men. They found it quite frustrating that the only time they were talked about was in quite a negative light. So actually, again, I think that that fits in quite nicely with the church because the church has always spoken to

men and spoken to women and actually given quite a strong model of positive masculinity and here's what you should be doing, those kinds of things.

Andrew Ollerton (11:44)
Do think that is the case? I mean, I'm glad to hear you say that, but I think, we as the church have to take some challenge here. sort of feel like maybe it's voices from outside the church that have offered more meaningful direction and purpose to young men. maybe I'm thinking here, particularly, we've talked before in this series about Jordan Peterson and the phenomena that he is in terms of influence on young men.

one of my reflections is I feel like he's probably been almost the voice of the father that many young men have never had.

And that's the sort of voice that they've been drawn to. But that's a voice outside the church. And I just feel like actually it's a deep challenge for the church. Your report feels to me like a big challenge for the church. Are we actually providing the kind of forms of model and teaching and examples of masculinity that young men can connect with and aspire to? I don't know.

Luke Taylor (12:30)
Yeah, I mean, I think there is a phrase that gets spoken about quite a lot, which is that someone will father your child. So we talk a lot about fatherlessness and people not having their dad around or access to their dad. But someone will be fathering them. And I guess in that sense, that's where someone like Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tate came up in nine out 10 of our charity visits. He was the most Googled person in 2023 or second most Googled. And actually, I think in some ways he's quite a useful figure because it means when we talk about toxic masculinity, we can say that's what it is.

But the problem that we have is, and I think maybe the church is well suited to try this, is when we talk about positive masculinity, no one quite knows what they mean. because we can't point at someone and say it's that. And perhaps the church is placed to do something like that. But we talk about Tate a lot and he'll also say quite similar things to Jordan Peterson. You know, look after yourself, work hard, find a girl.

Okay, maybe he'll say that quite badly, but he'll do that with quite a healthy smattering of misogyny and that little bit of yeast ruins the whole of what he's saying. And in that respect, I think is how do you find the voices who do it well? I'd be interested to know as well, I think from your report, it seemed as though certain denominations had received a bit more attention than others from young men. And I wonder if there's that kind of difference in the church and how the church can appeal to young men. Are there ways in which different denominations are doing it?

more than others that it is particularly attractive.

Rhiannon McAleer (13:47)
Yeah, so it's a great question, Luke.

young men in particular show quite an interest in, a strong interest in Catholicism, less so in our data set, but we've also seen interest in orthodoxy that's come out in other data sets around young men. And that links to a question that I was hoping to ask you. I was interested what you said a few moments ago about young men sometimes feeling like a problem.

problem to be solved and I think that can be a bit of an instinct when discussing young men and it's certainly been a little bit of an undercurrent sometimes around quiet revival though, is this a problem that young men are going to church which is curious for all sorts of reasons but one thing that has come up a lot and our data doesn't speak to it

is whether this is indicative of a turn to conservatism and I wonder kind of what you make of that and whether it's linked to wider trends.

Luke Taylor (14:44)
Yeah, I guess I think this has probably come up a little bit more recently in terms of Charlie Kirk and his influence on these kinds of things. We didn't go too much into political attitudes, but I think one of things I did note that was quite interesting was that there is, whether or not men are shifting right or women are shifting left, there's been a massive divergence in where they're generally both going.

Andrew Ollerton (15:02)
And do you think Luke, I mean, just turning the corner a little bit as we think about the church's role, which we absolutely want the church to have a key role. I know there's many churches, certainly for us, when your report came out, shared with a couple of people, there's almost a scramble on WhatsApp to say, what are we doing about this? Should we do a sermon series on masculinity? Should we be

having men's discipleship groups. think that's been lost a little bit. But before cutting to those solutions in detail, guess what I'm, my question or my thought is just, you know, outside the church, various options seem to sort of offer themselves to young men. Whether it's the online influencers, Whether it's the political option, you know, finding a cause, something to take responsibility for within the right leaning, especially

and forms of nationalism. And then I guess the other place you'll find a cause is the gym, isn't it?

So outside the church, there are all these different ways that a man can try and find a response to this crisis of masculinity. But obviously the church is looking at thinking, but what do we do? You how do we, how do we get heard? How do we make a way forward for young men that's got more positive options? What is your...

wisdom from the insights of the report for the church.

Luke Taylor (16:07)
Yeah, well it's kind of you to call it wisdom. I don't know if I'd go that far.

I think actually something that we can do, and we thought about this in the office, but not really worked out whether it's our place to look at, but it's the role of initiating. So actually, kind of through all cultures in history, we've had models of initiation for young men to turn boys into men. And actually, we thought about a lot, like, what does it look like for a boy to become a man in our culture? Is it?

you he passes driving tests, gets married, buys a house, gets his first job, whatever it might be. And actually I don't think it's any of them because, you know, a boy is not going to suddenly say I'm a man because I've done one of them. But I think it's especially important now because we have a kind of notion that boys are suddenly, that men are just appear, whereas actually really they're made from boys. And there's lots of different, you know, ways of initiating young boys, but actually generally it's something about

taking the boy from the women, giving it to a community of men, challenging the boy, and then welcoming him into part of that community of other men around. So not necessarily the father, but actually men in the community looking at the boy saying, see you and you're a man now. that, you know, the old, the old boy is gone. The man is here. You now need responsibility. You stand up, you take part in the community. You're one of us. And what that looks like is...

is particularly, I think, something that we've lost for

young boys need men in their lives to do that. But we've got this crisis of fatherlessness where two and a half million kids don't have a dad in their home.

and I think the church is really well placed to do this, to talk about that kind of, you were once this and now you are something different, you are new. I guess that's quite a big thing in terms of baptism and symbolism of that. Yeah. And then that kind of the role of actually having that kind of intergenerational relationships and mentoring.

really well places somewhere like the church to do that.

Andrew Ollerton (17:47)
Yeah, I really appreciate that, Luke.

And I think somehow as a church, we've got to get a little bit more active in, you know, nurturing and, actually a couple of our guys came, including one of my boys came to a men's curry night the other night and just sort of, it was just interesting to see just these 15 and 16 year old just with, with the other men.

⁓ finding their way, talking to men like young men. And I think those settings are rare, aren't they, where you're actually just, no, you're one of us now. So you step up and count yourself a man and act towards it. As a church, I think, you know, I appreciate your insights on how we get that back.

Luke Taylor (18:10)
Thank

I mean, I think a large part of it is actually, think culturally we've not been very good at this, is distinguishing about the importance of male and female spaces. So, I mean, well, the female space has been quite a contentious issue, but actually I think on the reverse side of that, it's really important to have male spaces.

And if I was to say something, what could the church do? Actually, those kinds of men's curry nights, men's breakfasts, women's brunches, women's mornings, doing those kinds of things are really important because there's differences in the way that we're going to experience the world.

And particularly when we're talking about young people, how do we tell a young woman what it's going to be like being an older woman? Well, get older women to tell her. And the same respect of younger men. What's it going to be like being a man when you're a boy? well, let's let a bunch of men tell you. And that doesn't have to necessarily be in, you know, obvious conversations, but actually spending time one-to-one is really important. I mean, I also think the mentoring side is really, really interesting. So we had a lot of questions off the back of

the report. But one of the most obvious ones was, okay, you've mentioned this two and a half million dads stat. What are we going to do for those boys particularly who don't have them? know, where are their positive male role models? All you've spoken about is Andrew Tate, how are we going to get the trust of adults back into their lives? And that's a really, really good question. And we've thought about quite a lot and we've not quite got there. But how do we get a generation of men to stand up and volunteer and give their time and give their energy, give their wisdom?

into raising the next generation of boys who might not have the opportunities that they have. So again, I'd probably caution that way.

Rhiannon McAleer (19:52)
Well, Luke, our hope for this podcast is to really equip church leaders with tangible ideas that helps them, you know, respond to the moment that we're in now.

this amazing cultural moment and you've given us so many tangible ideas there, mentoring, space for fellowships, community, that came through so strongly in our data as well about the difference that church going makes for young men who are feeling connected to people in their local area, places of meaning. And the word that came up for me was formation as well there and churches really kind of leaning into their role here to help

boys transition into young men. So thank you so much. Really Rich would encourage everyone to read the Lost Boys report and as well as the wider commentary around it. Thank you so much and take care.

Luke Taylor (20:40)
not a problem at all. Thanks for having me.

Andrew Ollerton (20:43)
John Funnel it's great to welcome you to our podcast. I know you a little bit myself and so appreciate what you're up to and how God's using you in South Wales. But instead of revealing too much myself, tell us a bit, where are you based? What is the church context you're in and what are you seeing God do?

John Funnell (20:58)
Thank you Andrew, it's good to see you, thank you for inviting me for this podcast. By God's grace I serve as pastor at Noddfa Church in Abersychan We're in the eastern valley of South Wales which is known as the Forgotten Valley. The other valleys, dare I say, are gentrifying as commuter belts for the larger cities but we don't have that luxury here. We're in an area of social deprivation.

We've got fourth generation unemployed in our community and my church one in five work. The local schools, 72 % of the children are in single parent homes. Those that have two parents, it's often not the case that the dad is their dad

and a sad statistic last year was our area had the highest amount of children in the care system for the whole of Europe based on percentage of populace. So it's an area of great need but the Lord is blessing. I took the church on in 2014, it had a single digit

⁓ elderly and now we serve with Gospel ministry 300 a week and our largest demographic and fastest growing demographic is young men, men under 30. So Lord has really

Andrew Ollerton (22:15)
Hmm.

John Funnell (22:17)
is wonderful. God's good. Yeah, he's blessed us.

Andrew Ollerton (22:17)
Come on. Yeah, amazing. Amazing. What a great story. Thank you, John.

just been talking about the Lost Boys report, which just shows how much challenge there is. And it sounds like your context exemplifies that, but what an amazing thing God's doing in the midst of all of that need. Yeah, brilliant.

John Funnell (22:34)
in light of the term Lost Boys, a number of our young men that came, they came as Lost Boys and we've got seven currently training for ministry within our church that we're sending out preach throughout the valleys. So the gospel works and I've seen it

Rhiannon McAleer (22:49)
Amazing John, we're so looking forward to hearing more from you and learning more from you and I'm sure there is so much on all demographics that we could be digging into here but today we're going to focus on these young men and obviously behind every single statistic there is a real person with you know a full life there but I wonder if you could kind of zoom out a little bit and give us some reflections on what do you think is attracting young men into church nowadays?

John Funnell (23:17)
Yeah, so in our community, I appreciate that we're in a unique environment, but I think the principles are the same right across the UK and the West. There's three lies that the world tells us, modern secular society, and they are, you're good enough just the way you are, you can be anything you want to be, and nothing is your fault, your product of your environment. And they're quite

plausible in a more middle-class I can be anything I want to be. I can go to university, get a good job, save up for a pension, retire, have a good life. But those promises can't be had in our valley.

you're good enough just the way you are. Again, you meet people in a more middle-class setting and they say, yeah, well, I'm good. I've never been in trouble with the police. But again, that promise can't be upheld in the context that I'm in.

particularly with the young men that are coming, that they're being told that they're good enough by their social workers, by their parole officers, But they know they're not. They're like, I've been to prison, I've got a drug addiction, I've got four children from four different women that I don't see, and I've never held down a job. I'm not good enough. But when they come to Noddfa Church, they hear the gospel.

And the Gospel proclaims that no one is good but God. You're a sinner. That's quite a beautiful thing to come to terms with and admit to. Because when you realise that you are a sinner, you also realise that everyone else is too. And you can unite in that brokenness. And it eliminates any kind of status or hierarchy.

And they hear the gospel message as truth. The third point they do embrace, which is nothing's your fault, you're a product of your environment. They leverage on that. My grandfather was made redundant from the mines. He never got another job, so he turned to drink. He beat my grandmother.

That's why my mum's such a mess and she's a heroin addict and that excuses my behaviour today. But what the Gospel proclaims is that if you repent of your sin and follow Jesus, you are a new creation. So stop using your past to justify your poor choices today. Live new. And the Church is a family of broken people that are all experiencing that same transformation in resurrection power.

and we can help guide you into a greater fulfilment than what this world can offer. Meaning, purpose, truth. And what we're finding with these men is when they're valued and adopted as sons of the church, they live that newfound value out and in doing so love and respect women and cherish their children.

So we're seeing entire families transformed by the work of the gospel. which is great. And it's a beautiful thing. I can tell you a story about one man that...

that came to us. a really tall, thin man who's six foot four. He is six foot four. He was in his 40s, heroin addict, originally from Scotland, went to various rehab centres, social workers, in and out of hospital because of his addictions. Nothing worked for him, in and out of prison too. He came to Noddfa he heard the gospel.

and he was clean within a few months. He was with us for about four or five years, became employable, got a job elsewhere in England. Didn't hear from him for two, three years, but we plugged him into a church where he was attending regularly. And then I got a message from him earlier this year saying that he's getting married to a Christian woman from this church. So you've got utter social mobility there because of the gospel. Hallelujah.

Andrew Ollerton (26:41)
Hmm.

John Funnell (26:46)
It's wonderful. I've said this earlier, the Gospel works.

have confidence in the gospel.

Andrew Ollerton (26:51)
Come on.

Yeah, brilliant. Thanks for sharing real stories, because as Rhiannon says, we've published this quite revival research that no doubt you've come across as a lot of our listeners have as well. And yet, you know, behind every statistic is a story, isn't it? And a story that really matters to God. And that when you meet these people, real people in the flesh, it's really moving, isn't it, to be part of their

their real journey from death to life and from hopelessness and despair to a sense of

One of the things that quite revival research picks up on is this renewed interest in the Bible particularly amongst younger people and in particular amongst younger men. And I think this is something, I mean, I've been meeting more and more young men who have actually done quite a deep, deep engagement with the Bible before they come to church.

And initially I thought, well, maybe this is a sort of more educated middle-class phenomena, because obviously the Bible is a text and you've got to read

I think the thing I want to draw you to speak to is it's not a middle-class phenomena alone, is it? I'm seeing meeting more more young men who actually have found the challenge of the Bible is actually bringing them into an engagement with reading and learning and growing, even though they may not have had a strong educational background or a home context where that was encouraged. So tell us a bit about what you're seeing specifically with young men engaging with the Bible. What's going on there?

John Funnell (28:05)
Yeah, you're so correct in what you're saying. They're reading the Bible before they're coming to church. I think the step before that is they're watching YouTube and then seeing Joe Rogan interview Christians and people like Jordan Peterson, I don't know where he is with the Lord, but he...

And I don't know where your thoughts lie on him, but the appearance he gives is a credible support for the truth claims of the Bible, whether he does that through his philosophy or what have you. I'm not arguing that what he says is right or wrong, but I think the weight of him and other academics that are out there are giving weight.

to scripture that there hasn't been before, and that's leading them to pick it up and read it for themselves. I think as well, where life has got so fluid, whether that's because of the digital economy,

And this generation is just seeking something that's absolute and upheld by tradition. And the Bible is an obvious go-to for that. They're looking back to previous generations to find some grounding in their life today.

What we've learned is that these men from working class backgrounds, that it's not that they have any difficulty of wrestling and grasping profound concepts of deity. The question is how you teach them.

And it's got to be in a way that's contentious, authentic, relational and in conversation. You know, I don't mean to be overly assumptive and create a stereotype, but what most men out there think church is about is going into a room with a handful of old ladies singing

hymns they don't know at a high pitch and then discussing a flower rota with little china cups of tea. At Noddfa we sing hymns loudly and proudly. You get a mug of tea. I get heckled during a sermon and that's okay. On a Sunday morning you get a short 20 minute gospel message but then on a Thursday night when the men meet

We open the Bible and we thrash it out for three hours and then we pray for one, two hours. Yeah, it's about having that engagement, that relationship with them.

So, you know, there's people that go out and try and make bite-sized content for them. That's incredibly patronising. These men are sat there listening to three hours of Joe Rogan. They don't need a two-minute gospel message. You know, what they want is relationship with other men to talk these things through. And that's what we provide as a church, and that's why they're thriving. And I encourage other churches to follow suit.

Spend time with these men.

Andrew Ollerton (30:37)
Yeah, we were talking earlier about just the gym culture as well and I think part of what young men are going to the gym for is a challenge, isn't it? Obviously the great thing about that is you can see the difference physically in your own body and you can take on a challenge, you can compete with other men and it's almost like where we strip the church of that arena of challenge. We want the Bible to be the gymnasium, the space spiritually where you take on, you meet resistance and you have to

You have to come up against something that's not all played down and dumbed down, but actually by coming up against it in the company of other people, you improve yourself, you improve your life, I suppose, ultimately.

John Funnell (31:13)
Yeah, I love that, the arena. That's what we need to create an environment. Saturday night, once a month we have steak and scripture, where the men that come get a steak and a Bible and that's it. There's no thrills and they eat the steak and then they discuss the Bible.

My assistant pastor was running it this week and I went up to the hall and I stood outside listening and they were having a full blown argument and there was raised voices.

and then afterwards I met some of the men. said, was everything okay that last night? They said, we loved it. It was brilliant. Because it is that open, raw, expressive learning that they embrace.

Rhiannon McAleer (31:54)
So you've pointed us to a few things there John, like community, ⁓ fellowship, but also really going deep on the Bible there. And that really resonates with so much of what I've heard over the last few months, particularly from young men who are going deeper in faith, whether because they're new to faith or they've grown up, but suddenly they really want to grapple with this thing they've been hearing about all their life.

I wonder, I've got two questions for you here. So one of them is like, what are the questions that kind men are bringing to the And the other thing is that we've heard throughout our research for a long time is that for church leaders, it can be kind of challenging sometimes to...

John Funnell (32:21)
you

Rhiannon McAleer (32:32)
to open the Bible, they can be worried, right? they wanna be good stewards of the Bible and help people access it well. But what you're describing is really open and I wonder like, what would your tips be for men who want to serve others in their community in the way you're doing?

John Funnell (32:42)
Yes.

Brilliant. Great questions. So firstly, the gatekeeper. The last thing I want to be is a priestly figure when I'm teaching the Bible. I make sure they all have a Bible and they open it. And I'm honest enough to say, I don't know. I could be wrong on this. know, correct me if I'm wrong.

Be yourself. Be authentic. I am in statistically one of the

poorest, roughest areas in the UK. Yet I run meetings in a shirt and a blazer because that's who I am. If I turned up with a tracksuit to try and familiarise myself with the people around me, they'll see that that's not me and I'd lose all credibility. It's about being yourself, which also means if you want honesty from them, you've got to be honest and...

don't put pressure on yourself to have all the answers. Just open the Bible and let the Bible speak. And you when you were asking about what kind of questions that I get, there's two frames of questioning that I get. One's positive, one's negative. So the negative for young men, which is very common, is you get men that come and because their grounding is YouTube and there's a lot of rubbish on YouTube,

They come with conspiracy theories or they're obsessed with the end times or Nephilim or Flat Earth. And you've got to keep them focused on Jesus, keep them focused on what does the Bible actually say. And then that then brings them to the second phase, which is very healthy, which is how do we apply it to daily life? You know, you can...

Andrew Ollerton (34:02)
you

John Funnell (34:22)
Debate the end times all you want. How does that make you be a better father to your children? And that's where we have the real meat of discussion, application. We did two years of two to three hour Bible studies once a week with a group of, I don't know, 20 to 30 men. And we did two years in Proverbs and we just did chapter one to eight.

And just went through every proverb, just read a proverb. What does that say about Jesus? What does it say about his church? How does this apply to your life tomorrow? What are you going to change because of what this has said? And that simple matter of fact application that is supported with prayer works.

Rhiannon McAleer (35:05)
I think there's so much here that's just really applicable to communities around the country, know, whatever kind of the setting, if you like, there's some really kind of common themes here. Being okay to admit that we don't know, let's discover things together. That application thing, we know that that's such an important...

John Funnell (35:13)
Yeah.

Andrew Ollerton (35:16)
Hmm.

John Funnell (35:22)
Yeah.

Rhiannon McAleer (35:25)
part of what we would call Bible confidence and it's something where Christians can sometimes trip up no matter how long they've been Christian. I love what you're saying here about kind of getting it out of the theory, the big ideas, which are fun to spend time on in line, but then what does this mean for our actual practical life? I these are really tangible things that we can take away there. I wonder, one question I've been asked a lot is I've been

talking about quiet revival and I don't have a good answer for is how do we start that conversation with the Bible? How do we get the Bible to people who are new to faith? So they might have done their thinking online, but those first conversations you have when someone's starting to explore church and community.

John Funnell (35:51)
So, you. ⁓

Wednesday last week, I get a phone call from the school at the church saying that there's a man in the graveyard crying. I get to the church to see him he's a big man, six foot three, tattoos everywhere

doesn't look like your usual visitor to a church. And he's in the graveyard weeping. I asked him if he was all right. And he said, everything I thought was true is a lie. And I spent two hours out there with him. We went through Romans, we went through John, and because of the nature of what he was speaking about, we went to Timothy. And we had a wonderful time.

That was the first time he's ever engaged with the scripture. And my main impetus in that conversation was to convince him of the importance of church. Because if you're not plugged in a community with people that love you and you're reading the Bible in isolation, that's going to lead to

The church is the body of Christ. The church is his bride he's returning for. And it's a safe space for you to be open about your brokenness. It's a space where you can learn and grow in the fruits of the spirit with people that love you because they love your saviour. And if someone is seeking the Lord, if they're interested in the Bible,

My first point then would always be get yourself in a good local church because there you're going to meet people that love you and can guide you through the text.

So get in a church and be part of a community and be part of the witness of Christ in your area. That's how the Bible comes to life

Andrew Ollerton (37:43)
Yeah, we've talked about the importance of two things really, and I think you're hitting on both, and relationships and resources, because, you know, the problem with resources is in the online space, everyone's, as you say, down rabbit holes, So you need resources that center on Jesus and bring people to faith in him. And you need relationships. There's no substitute for that, there? And I think, you know, the...

The number of young men coming to church, just turning up, so often, it's so often not the start of their journey. It's just the first time they've decided to come to church. And that's where the church needs to be ready to embrace them. And I just got a message, actually, I thought I'd just read it to you. I see what you make of this, John, and maybe just use this as a way to wrap up, you know, what tips would you give to the leader of this church? They said, yesterday, a young man walked into church very tentatively and nervous. I sat by him. He'd never been to church before.

John Funnell (38:12)
Yeah.

Andrew Ollerton (38:29)
He'd realized recently that all that he'd been taught in school and the media and brought up to believe were lies and is convinced of the existence of God now. He's been reading the Bible online and trying to make sense of it and proving it to himself, its accuracy as a historical document. He's going to need a lot of support and discipling, but I was so thrilled and excited that he walked into our doors. For us, think that sums up this little episode, doesn't it? These amazing people.

John Funnell (38:38)
Hm.

Yeah.

Andrew Ollerton (38:56)
⁓ What's your final top tip or couple of tips for church leaders like this who meet these young men? want to help? What are you saying?

John Funnell (39:03)
give him a job. And I don't mean a paid job. I don't mean give him a ministry. I mean give him a job. You know, our church, we've been blessed that we've got space. So we have beehives, we've got gardens growing food. We're open, as I said, seven days a week, 7.30 to 11, those doors are open.

and we've always got something going on and there's always something to do and these young men are seeking value and purpose. These young men need value, they need purpose. In a world that doesn't trust them, in a world that doesn't value them, trust them and value them.

give them a job, whether it's handing out the hymn books on a Sunday or helping paint a wall and get them to do it with a mature brother. Because if they are disenfranchised from ⁓ traditional academic models, they'll get more working alongside a Christian with a shovel than they will listening to a sermon. empower them and trust them to do things for the church. It's a gamble, it's a risk.

But it's worth it, isn't it? We're able to go the extra mile and to love the unlovable. make them feel part of the community and trusted.

Rhiannon McAleer (40:09)
absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much, John, so much. It's really resonating there. Community, mentoring, trust, purpose, value, all of these things I think are so applicable across the country for people who are experiencing this new cultural and missional moment. Thank you so much.

Your ministry is amazing and may it continue to be blessed and thank you for all the work that you're doing and for squeezing us in to your really busy seven day a week job and talking to us about how you're experiencing the quiet revival.

John Funnell (40:43)
Praise the Lord, all glory to Jesus Christ and thank you all for what you do. You do such an important work and I'm really grateful. So thank you.

Andrew Ollerton (40:50)
what a great conversation. I love the fact in this episode we've gone from Westminster, where Luke is based as a sort of political think tank, And I don't know about you, find that, even that title, Lost Boys, it's kind of got a spiritual theme to it, hasn't it? And there's so much that the church needs to do at this time to respond to this crisis of masculinity and the young men turning up at church.

often they're in the Bible before they're in church, they've often done some deep dive on YouTube and in the Bible. And I don't know about you, I loved what John had to say about from Westminster right into the Welsh valleys, know, how do we actually on the ground help these young men to feel like there's purpose and meaning to their lives? So if you've enjoyed John's contribution and story as much as we have, do check out his book actually, What God Can Do With A Little Oil, Church Growth In A Desperate Situation by John Funnell.

It's on Amazon and it's another way you can just think more about the story of how God is working through his people, his church, the importance of relationship and community to reach young men at this time.

Rhiannon McAleer (41:45)
Yes, thanks so much, Andrew. What a great conversation, so rich, so much for us to reflect on. If you enjoyed listening to it, please give us a like, it really helps us be found. Please subscribe, share with those you think would be interested, other church leaders, people who are interested in mission and those who are just interested in this cultural moment.

next time we're going to be looking at Gen Z, what's going on with them in the Bible, are they spiritually curious and how can we reach them better in this amazing missional moment. We'll be joined by The Way UK to discuss all this and more so until then, take care and God bless.