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Join host Stine Mangor Tornmark as she journeys through the in-house legal landscape of today.
With influential GCs, top C-level executives and other fascinating guests, Inspiring Legal is your weekly dose of everything legal, career and life-lessons.
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Apply to become a community member at www.openli.com/community
[00:00 - 00:07] So, we're back with another episode of Inspiring Legal.
[00:07 - 00:11] My name is Stine and I'm your host.
[00:11 - 00:14] Openli is all about the community.
[00:14 - 00:22] It's all about inspiring each other and us to become even better in-house privacy counsels,
[00:22 - 00:29] GCs, head of legal, and working with that every single day.
[00:29 - 00:32] Today, I'm joined by Sarah.
[00:32 - 00:41] Sarah Ouis is an amazing person, one to get inspired by.
[00:41 - 00:48] And today, she's going to be talking about her journey, having worked in-house as a legal
[00:48 - 00:58] counsel, moving up in the ranks, so to speak, heading up legal teams, and now working no
[00:58 - 01:07] longer in-house, but from the outside, taking that view on how can we, working in-house,
[01:07 - 01:08] improve?
[01:08 - 01:09] What works?
[01:09 - 01:10] What doesn't work?
[01:10 - 01:16] With that maybe more objective view, because she's looking in from the outside.
[01:16 - 01:17] Welcome, Sarah.
[01:17 - 01:22] Thank you so much, Stine, for having me.
[01:22 - 01:26] Sarah, so people might know you.
[01:26 - 01:27] They might not know you.
[01:27 - 01:32] You have a massive following based on LinkedIn, and we'll talk about that as well.
[01:32 - 01:37] But maybe for the ones that don't know you, could you maybe just tell a little bit about
[01:37 - 01:40] yourself and your journey and who you are?
[01:40 - 01:41] Yeah, sure.
[01:41 - 01:44] So a little bit about myself.
[01:44 - 01:45] So I'm Sarah.
[01:45 - 01:52] I am a French qualified lawyer, but I've pretty much developed my career in the UK.
[01:52 - 01:53] That's after law school.
[01:53 - 01:56] That's pretty much where everything started for me.
[01:56 - 02:04] I worked as an in-house counsel in multiple industries, mostly in technology and pharmaceutical
[02:04 - 02:06] life sciences sectors.
[02:06 - 02:11] So these were really the sectors I knew the most.
[02:11 - 02:16] And I developed my career as an in-house counsel, first being part of a legal team, and then
[02:16 - 02:17] I joined a scale-up.
[02:17 - 02:24] I started off as a sole counsel, built the entire legal function and privacy function
[02:24 - 02:25] from scratch.
[02:25 - 02:34] So I've been for the weeds of what it takes to grow as an in-house team.
[02:34 - 02:41] And then in 2021, I kind of felt that I couldn't see myself doing this again.
[02:41 - 02:52] And I just figured that I was more passionate about problem solving in-house as opposed
[02:52 - 03:06] to being an in-house counsel on a daily basis, which made me move to work part-time with
[03:06 - 03:15] Contrapod AI, which I have a CLM, and also found my own consultancy, Lobeth House.
[03:15 - 03:23] So it's all about I really help legal team design user-centric in-house legal departments
[03:23 - 03:32] for them to increase customer satisfaction, but ultimately also be more fulfilled in everything
[03:32 - 03:33] they do.
[03:33 - 03:38] So yeah, that's about me.
[03:38 - 03:40] You say that's about you.
[03:40 - 03:41] That's quite impressive.
[03:41 - 03:49] And I also think you've kind of like did that journey where you started your career, right?
[03:49 - 03:56] And then you just built on from there, building the teams, building yourself, and being on
[03:56 - 04:02] that journey where when you're a part of a startup or a scale-up, you have to keep up
[04:02 - 04:03] with the business, right?
[04:03 - 04:12] You have to keep your team motivated, having massive workloads, having to improve yourself,
[04:12 - 04:17] motivate yourself, build out your own kind of career while doing this, and still trying
[04:17 - 04:24] to get that work-life balance to kind of, well, work, or at least just get some kind
[04:24 - 04:28] of normality into it.
[04:28 - 04:35] So Sarah, if you were to kind of like maybe put a few words on when you're now sitting
[04:35 - 04:42] at your consultancy and working with those legal teams, if you were to kind of like take
[04:42 - 04:48] a look at your own journey and think a little bit about what have I learned and what would
[04:48 - 04:54] I have done differently maybe, could you maybe just share some of those kind of thoughts?
[04:54 - 04:57] Yeah, sure.
[04:57 - 05:05] I think probably when looking back, one of the things that really hinders, hindered me
[05:05 - 05:13] as an in-house counsel, and I think it hinders a lot of in-house legal teams, is mindset.
[05:13 - 05:25] We are really, we lack the skills that it takes to really run an effective user-centric
[05:25 - 05:28] legal function that doesn't burn people out.
[05:28 - 05:36] Again, because the legal functions tend to be unfortunately cost-centered, that's just
[05:36 - 05:39] the reality of the way we are perceived.
[05:39 - 05:44] We obviously get buried in an amount of work, and we are pretty much helpless about it.
[05:44 - 05:46] We don't really know what to do.
[05:46 - 05:48] And I've been that, I've been there.
[05:48 - 05:54] I've been that in-house counsel that didn't have any budget, that had to fight for months
[05:54 - 05:59] if not years to get additional resources, et cetera.
[05:59 - 06:08] And in a way, it was a blessing in disguise because when you are, resources come with
[06:08 - 06:09] resourcefulness.
[06:09 - 06:14] So you really have to kind of find ways to build that foundation in order for the resources
[06:14 - 06:15] to come.
[06:15 - 06:20] So since I had no budget, I had to work with what I had, which was nothing.
[06:20 - 06:26] So I had to look inward and be like, okay, what is it that I can do better?
[06:26 - 06:34] What is it that I can, what area of the business can I start, build efficiencies into, et cetera?
[06:34 - 06:38] So it kind of made me think.
[06:38 - 06:46] And I think that a lot of where mindset comes a problem is that we tend to kind of think
[06:46 - 06:51] that we can't problem solve unless we have more budget, unless we have more bodies.
[06:51 - 06:58] So we lack this kind of resourcefulness and we don't take a step back and think, well,
[06:58 - 07:03] actually, let's look at what we have here.
[07:03 - 07:07] Does every contract, is every contract worth the same?
[07:07 - 07:08] Absolutely not.
[07:08 - 07:15] I always use the example of the office furniture agreement, like office furniture supply and
[07:15 - 07:19] low risk, zero value type of contracts.
[07:19 - 07:21] Why do we handle that as a legal function?
[07:21 - 07:25] So all of those kinds of questions, right?
[07:25 - 07:29] That we don't necessarily ask ourselves.
[07:29 - 07:36] So looking now from an outsider's perspective, it's obvious that the first change that we
[07:36 - 07:39] have to make is in our mindset.
[07:39 - 07:44] If we see ourselves as not having resources, we will never make the shift anyway, because
[07:44 - 07:47] there will always be enough budget.
[07:47 - 07:51] There will never be enough budget, enough time, enough resources to get things done.
[07:51 - 07:56] So it's all about shifting that belief and be like, you know what, I'm going to make
[07:56 - 07:59] this work with what I have.
[07:59 - 08:03] And we're going to work smarter, not harder.
[08:03 - 08:09] And that's where things start to be put into motion.
[08:09 - 08:14] But don't you think, Sarah, and I think they're very, very valid points that you're raising,
[08:14 - 08:21] but don't you think there's also something about legal know that there are costs, right?
[08:21 - 08:27] So in these times, you also know that it's going to be difficult to get additional budget
[08:27 - 08:32] for buying tools or hiring more people.
[08:32 - 08:38] So legal is very mindful of those scenarios and therefore won't go to the CFO and push
[08:38 - 08:40] forward for that tool.
[08:40 - 08:45] Whereas if you're in marketing, you're going to go to the CFO and say, well, I know I'm
[08:45 - 08:51] bringing in this amount of leads, or I'm supposed to, but I'm sorry, I can't do that unless
[08:51 - 08:52] I get this tool.
[08:52 - 08:55] Yeah, but it's like, you know, budget restraints.
[08:55 - 08:59] And the marketing will say, totally up for it, get it.
[08:59 - 09:05] I'm totally buying to it, but just FYI, I won't hit those lead numbers that you asked
[09:05 - 09:08] me to hit because I don't have to support, I'm getting it.
[09:08 - 09:14] So they're pushing back where I think what I'm seeing often is that legal will say, I
[09:14 - 09:18] know that there isn't budget, we'll just work harder.
[09:18 - 09:22] And we'll just manage as we've always been managing, like we haven't had this contract
[09:22 - 09:28] management tool for four years, we will survive one more year.
[09:28 - 09:36] But what really then happens is that legal then works harder, not smarter, but works
[09:36 - 09:37] harder.
[09:37 - 09:39] They push that limit a little more.
[09:39 - 09:45] The business starts to get maybe a little more annoyed because contracts are delayed
[09:45 - 09:47] a little.
[09:47 - 09:52] And they don't have the same kind of like access to legal as they once did.
[09:52 - 09:57] So what ends up happening is that legal might be in some scenarios, and we shouldn't generalize
[09:57 - 09:59] because there are differences, right?
[09:59 - 10:04] But pushing themselves up in a corner where they're more stretched for resources, they're
[10:04 - 10:11] more pressured, the business aren't as happy as they were before.
[10:11 - 10:18] And everything because legal didn't feel that they had the same ability to push forward
[10:18 - 10:23] what they needed, or maybe haven't been able to persuade the CFO.
[10:23 - 10:28] And all honesty, that's probably the biggest naysayer, right?
[10:28 - 10:32] To get that person to buy into why this is.
[10:32 - 10:34] Yeah.
[10:34 - 10:38] So in those scenarios, what should you do?
[10:38 - 10:44] So going back to this mindset issue, we are what we believe.
[10:44 - 10:49] If we believe we are cost center, that's all we'll ever be.
[10:49 - 10:53] If we believe we cost money, we are going to act accordingly.
[10:53 - 10:59] So we are going to go to the CFO almost feeling sorry for ourselves because we are asking
[10:59 - 11:00] for more money.
[11:00 - 11:03] Because we are a cost center, so we keep dragging resources out of the business.
[11:03 - 11:10] So that's where shifting that belief is critical.
[11:10 - 11:19] And the way to do that is, I guess, by understanding better who is it that we are talking to.
[11:19 - 11:28] And understand that in order to get buy-in, people don't put big money into small things.
[11:28 - 11:37] So a CFO isn't going to allocate an additional resource unless it can make the company more
[11:37 - 11:48] money, unless it can save the company more money, or reduce the turnaround time of contract,
[11:48 - 11:51] or big outcomes.
[11:51 - 11:53] And that's what we have to push.
[11:53 - 12:00] Instead of saying, I need more resources, we really have to position and build our use
[12:00 - 12:07] case around what is in there for our CFO or our head of sales.
[12:07 - 12:13] So we have to kind of say, and that's where data becomes critical.
[12:13 - 12:22] And instead of trying to kind of beg and feel sorry for ourselves, we have to use data and
[12:22 - 12:28] logical arguments and be like, look, currently, this is how long it takes to turn around the
[12:28 - 12:29] MSA.
[12:29 - 12:34] Now, these are the reasons why.
[12:34 - 12:42] And if we had this total, this extra resources, et cetera, then the process would become this.
[12:42 - 12:47] And as a result of that, we would reduce the turnaround time by 50%.
[12:47 - 12:56] So although a head of sales won't be necessarily sensitive to how busy the legal team is, they
[12:56 - 12:59] will be very receptive to the turnaround time being reduced.
[12:59 - 13:01] And that's how we get them.
[13:01 - 13:09] So that's what I mean by really kind of shifting that narrative, understand what the people
[13:09 - 13:16] we serve resonate with and build a use case according to what is in there for them, their
[13:16 - 13:17] outcomes.
[13:17 - 13:24] So that's, and I think that's a much more powerful way to not only getting what we want
[13:24 - 13:28] and need, but also showcasing our value.
[13:28 - 13:30] We're here to turn around your contract faster.
[13:30 - 13:36] We're not here to hinder the business.
[13:36 - 13:43] So now, Sarah, that you're working, let's call it with legal, but from the outside,
[13:43 - 13:48] where do you see, so firstly, you talk very much about mentality and mindset.
[13:48 - 13:56] So where do you see some of the biggest opportunities for, let's say, improvements or doing things
[13:56 - 13:59] smarter or in a different way?
[13:59 - 14:00] This is a great question.
[14:00 - 14:03] I think there are just so many opportunities.
[14:03 - 14:09] But again, obviously not every opportunity is made equal.
[14:09 - 14:16] I think one of the biggest opportunities we can build is obviously building a much more
[14:16 - 14:24] user-centric and effective legal function.
[14:24 - 14:32] I think making our customers, internal customers happy with the delivery of our services and
[14:32 - 14:42] also ensuring that our legal folks have fulfilling day-to-day are, I think, two of the big outcomes
[14:42 - 14:48] that we, that in my view, GCs should really focus on.
[14:48 - 14:53] There are other things, but I think if you can provide a user-centric legal experience
[14:53 - 15:05] in-house and ensure that your members focus on the right things, the exciting projects,
[15:05 - 15:14] and also are being given the opportunity to upscale, to learn new ways of working, et
[15:14 - 15:20] cetera, I think this would be a great achievement already.
[15:20 - 15:27] So when you're saying user-centric, that can be, don't get me wrong when I'm saying this,
[15:27 - 15:28] but a little bit of fluff.
[15:28 - 15:29] Fluff, yeah.
[15:29 - 15:31] So what does it actually mean?
[15:31 - 15:38] And I'm not saying it is fluff, but it can be very difficult for a legal to kind of feel
[15:38 - 15:41] and take and then go out and push.
[15:41 - 15:43] Yeah, no, no, absolutely.
[15:43 - 15:45] And I agree, it's very high level.
[15:45 - 15:51] So I can be more practical and really dive deep on that.
[15:51 - 15:59] So by user-centric, I really mean tailoring everything we do to the needs, outcomes, and
[15:59 - 16:01] objectives of the people we are serving.
[16:01 - 16:09] So if we look at contracts, for example, different business units will have different types of
[16:09 - 16:10] contracts.
[16:10 - 16:15] So the way things are currently delivered right now is that we kind of take a one size
[16:15 - 16:16] fits all type of approach.
[16:16 - 16:19] These are all of your contract templates.
[16:19 - 16:21] If you need an NDA, take this one.
[16:21 - 16:29] If you need a purchasing agreement, you take this one, irrespective of whether the person
[16:29 - 16:36] who's going to self-serve is a procurement person or a salesperson.
[16:36 - 16:42] Being user-centric is really understanding what is it for them, what is in there in this
[16:42 - 16:44] contract for that particular person.
[16:44 - 16:54] So a procurement person would typically potentially want to save cost with the supply chain.
[16:54 - 17:02] On the other hand, a procurement person isn't really bothered by turnaround time because
[17:02 - 17:06] they have the bargaining power, they're not in a rush, et cetera.
[17:06 - 17:11] On the flip side, the salespeople tend to be very time sensitive because they have targets,
[17:11 - 17:14] because they have to bring the money in.
[17:14 - 17:19] So the way to deliver that contracting experience will very much differ because with the procurement
[17:19 - 17:28] team, the delivery will be around how can we save the company money with supply chain.
[17:28 - 17:38] So let's include rebates, let's include discounts, et cetera, like in the contract.
[17:38 - 17:41] And how are we going to track those things later down the line?
[17:41 - 17:44] So that's where the lifecycle comes into play.
[17:44 - 17:50] The sales guys, in terms of their contracting experience, it's delivering a user-centric
[17:50 - 17:56] experience for them is going to be, okay, what can we do to reduce the turnaround time?
[17:56 - 18:04] Well, let's make sure that our contracts are fair, reasonable, that are going to be accepted
[18:04 - 18:07] because they are industry standards.
[18:07 - 18:10] Let's not create 100 pages long NDA.
[18:10 - 18:16] I mean, that won't happen, but it's kind of to give examples, right?
[18:16 - 18:19] If the MSA is 100 pages long, maybe there's a problem there.
[18:19 - 18:25] Maybe how about we reduce this in half, if not more?
[18:25 - 18:27] Maybe we don't need to be that protective.
[18:27 - 18:28] Maybe it's a low-risk transaction.
[18:28 - 18:33] So what can we do to facilitate the signature?
[18:33 - 18:37] And what can we do in our process to make sure that the sales team have everything they
[18:37 - 18:42] need to sign those contracts faster, et cetera?
[18:42 - 18:47] So that's what I mean by user-centricity, really understanding the needs, the challenges,
[18:47 - 18:58] the objectives of each department we are serving and providing our services accordingly.
[18:58 - 19:02] So when you're coming in as now working as a consultant and then starting to work with
[19:02 - 19:08] those legal teams and starting to get them to buy into that user-centric mindset, which
[19:08 - 19:13] I think many legal people are actually very receptive to and something that they are trained
[19:13 - 19:19] to, like we're all trained to support and to serve and to understand the people that
[19:19 - 19:21] we're helping.
[19:21 - 19:23] So where do you start?
[19:23 - 19:29] Like, where do you see, let's call it where there's the biggest gap or where there's the
[19:29 - 19:31] biggest kind of win?
[19:31 - 19:35] One thing is often you start by saying, let's do a risk assessment.
[19:35 - 19:39] Let's take a look at the entire legal function and how they're catering.
[19:39 - 19:46] But I would guess that there's some kind of like things that you see more often.
[19:46 - 19:47] What would those be?
[19:47 - 19:53] So for me, where I really have an impact is mindsets.
[19:53 - 19:56] Because until you believe that you can do things better, that you can do things in a
[19:56 - 20:02] much more user-centric way, and until you are equipped with the skills and the understanding
[20:02 - 20:05] of how to get there, nothing will get done.
[20:05 - 20:10] So that's really where my value add is, and that's where I start.
[20:10 - 20:16] So I don't, in terms of the execution, that's where you would go if you want to build efficiencies,
[20:16 - 20:20] you would go to legal ops agencies for that.
[20:20 - 20:29] Where I really kind of, I'm kind of like a step before those service providers.
[20:29 - 20:37] I really sit with the legal team and I help them understand what is it to be user-centric.
[20:37 - 20:44] So I do a lot of, I raise awareness a lot and we kind of dive into that exercise of
[20:44 - 20:45] what is design thinking?
[20:45 - 20:48] How is, because that's pretty much the methodology I'm using.
[20:48 - 20:50] So what is design thinking?
[20:50 - 20:55] How is design thinking relevant for in-house?
[20:55 - 20:57] How can you start understanding your users?
[20:57 - 21:03] So you start doing some research and understand better, you know, who is it that you're serving?
[21:03 - 21:07] What are their needs, their challenges, their frustration, and how can you develop solutions
[21:07 - 21:14] that will be fit for them, not everyone else.
[21:14 - 21:19] And you do that in such a way that you will solve your problems as a legal functions,
[21:19 - 21:28] but in a way that serve your clients, in a way that resonate with them.
[21:28 - 21:33] And if you do that, whatever you end up implementing is more likely to succeed because by then
[21:33 - 21:37] you will have a very good understanding of your client base.
[21:37 - 21:42] So I really help them with giving them like tools, methodologies, techniques to open up
[21:42 - 21:48] their mind and ultimately practice.
[21:48 - 21:55] And I get pushbacks and that's where it gets interesting.
[21:55 - 22:04] So when you are then going in and then you're working with those mindsets and then kind
[22:04 - 22:10] of like looking a little forward, where do you see the legal teams?
[22:10 - 22:15] Do you seem like, I think what I'm also asking for is that we're seeing right now AI, chat
[22:15 - 22:19] GBT, it's just coming and it's coming fast.
[22:19 - 22:24] And I think a lot of us are sitting and looking at the development and thinking, okay, so
[22:24 - 22:26] how is this going to impact me?
[22:26 - 22:30] How is this going to impact my mindset?
[22:30 - 22:39] So when you're sitting in the capacity that you have, what are you seeing?
[22:39 - 22:43] I mean, things are definitely moving fast and roles will change.
[22:43 - 22:54] And again, if you perceive yourself as someone who fills out paper all day, fill up templates,
[22:54 - 22:56] then again you have a problem.
[22:56 - 23:01] Your true value as an in-house lawyer isn't to provide contract templates, because again,
[23:01 - 23:08] I mean, we are seeing that with technology, you can pretty much ask this chat GBT or even
[23:08 - 23:15] any tools now to pull any templates and they will do that in a matter of seconds.
[23:15 - 23:18] So you've already lost that battle.
[23:18 - 23:23] So you really need to kind of think hard in terms of what is it that you do that is highly
[23:23 - 23:26] valuable for your clients?
[23:26 - 23:34] And that's where the legal advice, the nuance, the bespoke support, being able to problem
[23:34 - 23:41] solve quickly in a given situation, in given parameters, that's really where a legal team's
[23:41 - 23:43] value proposition is.
[23:43 - 23:48] So one of the things I always tell them is whatever I teach you are tools and technology
[23:48 - 23:49] is no different.
[23:49 - 23:50] They are not an end.
[23:50 - 23:53] They are a means to an outcome.
[23:53 - 24:01] They help you problem solve better, faster, and help you focus on what you should be doing
[24:01 - 24:02] that is highly valuable.
[24:02 - 24:04] So you shouldn't fear AI.
[24:04 - 24:14] You shouldn't fear CLMs or technology or you shouldn't fear that your role is going to
[24:14 - 24:20] change because it will change for the better.
[24:20 - 24:27] So talking about change for the better, for the listeners out there, if you had one piece
[24:27 - 24:37] of let's say advice in addition to mindset changes, what would that be?
[24:37 - 24:44] It definitely would be let go of your perfectionism hat.
[24:44 - 24:47] Stop trying to be perfect.
[24:47 - 24:54] Stop trying to people please.
[24:54 - 25:03] And embrace being approximate, embrace being wrong, embrace being iterative and test things
[25:03 - 25:10] out because at the end of the day, transformation doesn't come overnight.
[25:10 - 25:15] It's a succession of small steps that you implement every single day of your life and
[25:15 - 25:20] ultimately after a while it starts, the big results start showing.
[25:20 - 25:26] So it would definitely be that.
[25:26 - 25:34] I know that is something that many, like you're, that's what you're taught, to be perfect,
[25:34 - 25:37] not to be wrong, not to be approximate.
[25:37 - 25:39] You have to be spot on.
[25:39 - 25:44] If you're not spot on, you have to have all your carve outs and saying under these circumstances,
[25:44 - 25:48] A, B, and C.
[25:48 - 25:54] So talk about changing up the way you're thinking.
[25:54 - 25:56] It can be a little terrifying.
[25:56 - 25:57] Oh yeah.
[25:57 - 25:58] Yeah.
[25:58 - 25:59] It is.
[25:59 - 26:00] It is.
[26:00 - 26:08] And again, it is a process, but it feels so liberating.
[26:08 - 26:13] You know, it's just so liberating when you kind of, and even as a GC to kind of empower
[26:13 - 26:16] your people to think that way, to be like, you know what?
[26:16 - 26:21] I mean, when I say being approximate, just to clarify, I don't mean, you know, rush your
[26:21 - 26:22] legal advice.
[26:22 - 26:23] Right.
[26:23 - 26:28] But it's more in the way you deliver your legal services, you know, like the, any processes
[26:28 - 26:31] that be experimental, try things.
[26:31 - 26:37] And if you are a GC, empower your people to come up with initiatives, to try to be wrong,
[26:37 - 26:38] to fail.
[26:38 - 26:43] It's, you know, that's how ultimately you learn and that's how you also prepare them
[26:43 - 26:44] for change.
[26:44 - 26:55] So Sarah, you have more than 20,000 followers on LinkedIn.
[26:55 - 27:01] So I think it's fair to say that you're most likely inspiring a lot of people.
[27:01 - 27:06] You definitely inspired us here today and I'm super grateful that you joined us for
[27:06 - 27:13] this conversation, but maybe just out of curiosity, where do you get your inspiration from?
[27:13 - 27:15] Who inspires you?
[27:15 - 27:24] So I get a lot of inspiration from the marketing and the design world.
[27:24 - 27:32] So for marketing, Gary Vee, he's the one that really inspired me to show up on LinkedIn
[27:32 - 27:34] and share my thoughts.
[27:34 - 27:41] And I started when I was in-house and visualization of legal information is how I started.
[27:41 - 27:45] And these are the things I teach and I train legal teams on today.
[27:45 - 27:49] Because again, it's not necessarily about the visualization, it's about the mindset
[27:49 - 27:50] behind it.
[27:50 - 27:58] I'm embracing a new medium, embracing, removing information as opposed to piling information
[27:58 - 27:59] and so on.
[27:59 - 28:03] So he's the one that inspired me to share about those things, which led to where I am
[28:03 - 28:04] today.
[28:04 - 28:14] In the design space, Chris Do, he's a really famous designer, but he shares a lot about
[28:14 - 28:15] entrepreneurship.
[28:15 - 28:21] And now that I run my own business, obviously I'm more into kind of, how can I move away
[28:21 - 28:24] from the employee hat and become an entrepreneur?
[28:24 - 28:29] And that in itself requires a lot of change.
[28:29 - 28:37] And then there's a guy who does productivity and his name is Rich Webster, and he shares
[28:37 - 28:40] a lot about working less.
[28:40 - 28:46] And I try to follow his wisdom on working less.
[28:46 - 28:50] So these are my inspirations.
[28:50 - 28:52] Thank you so much, Jero.
[28:52 - 29:02] For the ones that are interested in following you on LinkedIn, well, go to Sarah Ouis, O-U-I-S,
[29:02 - 29:04] and you can definitely find her.
[29:04 - 29:11] And for the ones that just want to get inspired every single week, like I do, well, follow
[29:11 - 29:12] the podcast.
[29:12 - 29:14] That is what it's all about.
[29:14 - 29:15] So thank you so much, Sarah.
[29:15 - 29:16] It was an absolute pleasure.
[29:16 - 29:17] Thank you so much, Stine.
[29:17 - 29:22] Thank you for having me.