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The biggest shifts in a business often come from decisions no one else sees.
Future Proof is a show for business owners facing the pressure to grow and the weight of legacy, often at the same time.
Hosted by Scott Eckart, each episode features honest conversations with leaders who’ve made bold moves, stepped into succession, or redefined success altogether. You’ll hear what they were up against, what they chose, and what they’d do differently now.
If you're thinking about what's next and want to build a business that lasts, this is the show for you.
Scott Eckart (00:02):
I am Scott Eckart, and this is Future Proof, A show for building something that lasts. Let's get into it. In this episode, my guest is Mary Beth Oakes, the CEO of Business Furniture located here in Indianapolis, Indiana. Business Furniture is 103 year old company that has thrived by continuing to innovate and create new value for businesses. Every day we will talk about why design matters for the work people do and how it impacts the bottom line.
Mary Beth Oakes (00:33):
Teams within our company work in different ways. We equated it to a neighborhood, and so there's a city neighborhood that's kind of a smaller footprint, hustle bustle, lots of collaboration, lots of connecting people. Then we have our rural neighborhood or our countryside neighborhood, and those folks that's our finance team, and they like to be a little bit more separate from the hustle and bustle because they do a lot of heads down, individual focused work. Our interior design team, they're great at making it look amazing, but we also want to make sure that in addition to the form, that there's great function.
Scott Eckart (01:04):
Join us as we get the inside view into the culture of Business Furniture and what makes it a company worth knowing.
Mary Beth Oakes (01:11):
Yes, it's about the experience we create for them, but we really want them to think deeply about the experience they're trying to create for their own team and what are the outcome? Is it making faster decisions? Is it growing? Is it attracting better talent? What are you trying to do with that space? What are you trying to do as a company? Because if that space isn't helping you to do it, then you're not getting the return on your investment.
Scott Eckart (01:35):
Hi, Mary Beth, thanks for being here.
Mary Beth Oakes (01:36):
Hey, thank you for having me. What a great opportunity. I always love any chance to get to partner with you.
Scott Eckart (01:42):
So let's get started. Yes. Who is Business Furniture?
Mary Beth Oakes (01:46):
Wow, so Business Furniture, we've been around 103 years.
Scott Eckart (01:50):
That is amazing.
Mary Beth Oakes (01:51):
We are Indiana's oldest and largest office furniture dealership. We were the first Steelcase dealership in the world. Steelcase is the world's largest manufacturer of office furniture. They're based in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Literally, we were their very first distributor starting back in 1922. So when I came to Business Furniture in 1992, I was 24 years old and I really had always thought I would be a broadcast journalist. I went to DePauw University in Greencastle and I had a wonderful professor there that led up our campus radio station and I was very inspired by him and just inspired by what he thought the media could do and how they could impact our society. I was very inspired by that and that's what I thought I wanted to do. But then I graduated and I kind of got cold feet and I wasn't so sure if that's really what I wanted to do every day, and so I ended, I had an interview at Business Furniture with the owner of the company, his name is Dick Oakes. I really loved how he described the company and the fact that they'd been in business at that point for 70 years and just how he described the culture and the people, how exciting it was, and I was just hooked. I just thought, this sounds like a great company. Of course, I told my family that I was going to work for an office furniture dealership and they said Office furniture. I mean, my mom was like, what are you doing? What are you thinking?
(03:13):
Why are you going to work there? She didn't see kind of the possibilities in the same way that I did and my first job at Business Furniture, I was our showroom manager. So I remember I sat at this great big U-shaped desk at the front door. I just thought it was a bunch of desks and chairs and files, and it's so much more than that, and I quickly learned that, but it was a great way for me to learn the business from the ground up. It was super helpful and I learned a lot. So that is how I met my future husband. So that was in 1992 and then seven years later, he and I got married. He bought the company in 1987 from the Ober family.
Scott Eckart (03:49):
Okay. When do you think that you saw yourself as an entrepreneur?
Mary Beth Oakes (03:54):
I was probably at Business Furniture for about three years, and my role had evolved from showroom manager to heading up all of our marketing and communication, which I loved that because that tied into what I had learned at DePauw about communication and promoting our brand and our image, and I just thought it was wonderful. But I remember at that time, Dick sat me down one day and he said, you really are a salesperson. And he said, I really think you would do great in sales. I thought that was nice that he asked, but I'm like, I'm a marketer. I really like marketing. That's my thing. So I continued to do the marketing thing for another probably 12 years, and then it was back in 2007, July of 2007, and I remember the sales person for the Eli Lilly and Company account for us, she'd been helping them to work on their new workplace strategy. She was on vacation and she said, Hey, can you meet with their chief architect? I think that they need some help writing protocols for how their employees should use their new space that they've created. And I said, sure, and I knew what she was working on. I've heard her talk about Lily's strategy, which is called the Integrated Workplace, which is still what they use today.
(05:02):
The whole idea was giving the employee the autonomy to choose the kind of space that they needed to do their best work. So they created a variety of different space types, some that were around focus, some that were around collaboration. Today that sounds pretty commonplace, that's what most companies do, but back in 2007, that was very novel. Nobody else was doing that in the Midwest. Some people may in the east coast, west coast, but not in the Midwest. Lily was definitely a pioneer. I knew that that's what they were working on. She wanted me to help them to have write protocols for how to use the space, but I sat down with the chief architect and he wanted the protocols, but something much bigger. I had never met him before. I'm looking across the table at him and he said, you know us, our culture, you know what we're creating.
(05:44):
We also need change management for our employees because they are going to be working in a much different way than they ever have before and they're going to need support. I thought it was very exciting, but what he asked me was not what I had expected. He said to me, okay, so all about us. Can you do this change management for us? And I sat there for a moment and I said, absolutely, we can. Sure we can. So I remember telling him, yes, and I'll get back to you with a proposal. And of course, I had never written a proposal for services before and I still saved that proposal. That was the first one that I had ever created.
Scott Eckart (06:21):
That's amazing.
Mary Beth Oakes (06:21):
But I remember ending that meeting, he walked out the door and I remember I'm thinking to myself, oh my goodness, my heart was kind of racing. What do we do now? I went to our CEO at that time and I told him what I had just committed us to, and he said, well, you're going to be great at that mb. And I was like, oh, thanks. I mean, I guess that is going to be me doing it then. So I'm just like, okay. And so we just started figuring out what they needed. We started to kind of immersing ourselves with them, and we built this whole business around change management, and I had a partner in crime, her name is Patty Clark, and she helped me to build this business. We really did not know exactly what we were doing. I mean, we understood the problems that the employees were going to be facing.
(07:01):
They were going to have to think every day when they walked into the Lilly campus, where am I going to work based on what kind of work I'm doing? And so that was a big shift, a big paradigm shift. And so our job was to help them with all that. And so Lily did three pilot spaces and we supported them with onsite support. So as those employees were moving in, we were the triage basically. We were the first point of contact when they needed help, and we helped them to build the best practices for working as a mobile, mobile or agile employee. So we started helping them to build all that, and we worked with them on all those pilots and continued to work with them on other spaces as they opened them, which was so exciting about high risk.
Scott Eckart (07:38):
But it’s high risk.
Mary Beth Oakes (07:38):
But it's high risk. Yes, it's high risk because they have high standards
Scott Eckart (07:41):
And if you fail, you fail badly.
Mary Beth Oakes (07:43):
Yes. And so those first couple of years, it was really exciting. About a year into it, we actually spun out and created a company called Choreo, and Choreo stands for Choreographing Change in Business. And so it really took on a life of its own. Lilly was great because of course when they're doing something very revolutionary and very innovative, every other company in this area wants to know more about why are they doing it and how
Scott Eckart (08:09):
How did they do it? How are you doing this?
Mary Beth Oakes (08:10):
They sit up in their chair and they listen. So suddenly then we started working with Cummins and with Roche and with Eskenazi and with One America, all of these companies wanted to know Rolls-Royce. They wanted to know if Lilly's doing this, how are they doing it? What's the recipe? And Lily was wonderful enough to say, we're working with Choreo. And so we got all of those great referrals, and that didn't mean we automatically had the business, but it certainly got us in the door so we could tell the story of how we could help them. And I think at that moment, that's kind of when I also realized that Dick was right. I am a salesperson and I learned that being a salesperson doesn't mean twisting and persuading somebody twisting their arm, making them do something. It really is helping them to solve a problem. They have a problem and you're trying to help them to figure out how to solve that problem. But I also realized I was truly an entrepreneur because I liked the idea of starting something and building something and experiencing all the highs and the lows. I thought it was fascinating and just exhilarating. And so I loved it. I was very focused on that business. I would say for about seven years, pretty exclusively focused on growing that business.
Scott Eckart (09:17):
And what was your role or title when you were doing Choreo?
Mary Beth Oakes (09:20):
So I was a founder and a CEO.
Scott Eckart (09:23):
Oh, you were at that time.
Mary Beth Oakes (09:23):
So I was doing that and kind of maybe six or seven years into it, I know that Dick was talking about eventually transitioning out of the business, and he said he would really appreciate it if I could also focus on Business Furniture and kind of put time and effort in helping them to grow that business. And so I came over and started leading our business development team, and then eventually I became our CEO in 2016. So I was the CEO at both companies, which was lots of fun. Challenging, but exciting and interesting, lots of work. And then about four or five years ago, Choreo became a part of Business Furniture. So now it is a brand or a team within Business Furniture, but it still exists. We're still doing that same type of work.
Scott Eckart (10:05):
So I would describe you, your superpower.
Mary Beth Oakes (10:09):
You're kind.
Scott Eckart (10:09):
Scared to say that is charisma.
Mary Beth Oakes (10:11):
Okay.
Scott Eckart (10:11):
Okay. Where does all this energy come from that you have goodness, would you say?
Mary Beth Oakes (10:17):
I would say I just feel like I've always been blessed with a lot of energy and I would say a lot of positivity. I grew up with a single mom. She and my dad got divorced when I was only two years old and I had three older sisters. And so when she and my dad were divorced, I think, let's see, we were 12, 11, 7 and two.
(10:37):
And so my mom moved back to her home state of Indiana, we'd been living in Illinois and we moved back to Indiana. And I think I just watched her always on the go, always moving, always looking on the bright side, facing a lot of tough challenges, raising four daughters by herself, but just never having any fear. And it just was inspiring to watch her. I don't think I realized, obviously when I was a little girl, what I was really watching, but what I was watching was her overcoming every obstacle and never giving up and always wanting the best for her children and trying to figure out a way to provide that for them. And that took a lot of energy. I mean, she often worked two jobs to be able to take care of us. And so I think probably I get some of that from her. She always was my biggest cheerleader, my biggest advocate. She really helped me to believe I could do anything. And I feel very fortunate to have grown up with a parent like that. I didn't grow up really with a dad in my life, but I felt like having her in my life was kind of having a mom and a dad because she was a superpower. Oh my gosh. Just a force of nature.
Scott Eckart (11:37):
Well, and I feel like you are continuing that legacy certainly at Business Furniture and clearly you've been impacted,
Mary Beth Oakes (11:45):
Oh
Scott Eckart (11:45):
My goodness, by her and others along the way. Anybody else on your top three top list? So we have Dick and your mom and any other people along the way who have really impacted you?
Mary Beth Oakes (11:56):
I had a job before I went to Business Furniture. I was a sales manager with Lazarus department stores. And I remember I had, my manager was, her name was Lisa Hudson. And I just remember I was very impressionable. I was 22 years old, and it was one of those situations I didn't exactly know what I was doing. I just had never thought about retail, but there I was and I wanted to learn a lot from her. And she was a great mentor and I remember she was getting ready for this big presentation with the CEO of all the Lazarus department stores. He was coming to our store and she was going to do a presentation. And I just remember before he got there, she seemed very nervous and she was just trying to get her thoughts together. And I could just tell she had some anxiety about this. But then when that team of leaders walked in the room and she took the stage, you would have never have known.
(12:47):
She was just so confident and so poised and so sure of herself. And I was just in awe because I just didn't know how quickly she could pull herself together like that. And she said, Mary Beth, she said, if you act like you know what you're doing, people will believe you. If you act with confidence, they will follow you. And she said, that's just how you have to show up if you want people to really believe in you and to follow you. And so she said, even though I didn't know exactly what I was doing, I had to try my best to act like I did. And I think about that lesson all the time when I get nervous about something I'm about to do that maybe I've never done before. I would also say that there are people in my own organization, Hannah, who's our VP of design, and Hannah just turned 35.
(13:33):
You would think she's much older than that because she's very wise, very mature, has a lot of emotional intelligence, but something I've always learned from her and appreciated is the way she's very accountable for herself. And I love it when she makes a mistake and she'll say, alright, this is what didn't go well, but this is what I learned from it and this is what I'm going to do differently next time. And I just have always been so drawn to that coming from her. I think that's remarkable. I mean, I just think it's just one of those things you notice that about her. It's such just a ray of light. So I consider someone like Hannah to be a mentor. Someone like Suzanne, my business partner, I have learned so much from her. I mean, she has just gone through a lot of things in her lifetime. We've been friends now for 31 years, and I've just seen so many things that she has gone through personally and professionally. And I will say she's such a resilient person. She's never given up. And to me that is just incredible. And then I even think about people that I've just met up with in the past several years, Marsha Barnes, who
(14:35):
She used to be the CEO of Defenders, and now she's the CEO of a company that she founded Valve+Meter. And I look at her and just the way she approaches life with humor and creativity and just kindness. I heard her say one time that it's always important to lead with love.
(14:54):
And that really just struck with me because in this corporate crazy world of business where things are rapidly changing and moving fast, why can't we lead with love? Why can't love still be the basis for everything we do? So I love how she comes at that with a very Christian heart and love. I've been so fortunate to have great mentors, great guides, and I think that's why if somebody ever asks me, Hey, will you spend some time with me? I'm always willing to do that because if I can share some part of my journey that resonates with them, then I think I've done good work. If I can help,
Scott Eckart (15:26):
Mentoring has always been a passion project of mine. I will meet with anybody who wants to get on my schedule just because I've had people in my past who saw something in me that I didn't see in myself.
Mary Beth Oakes (15:41):
I think what you're saying is so important about somebody else that sees something in you. I think that's what happened with Dick. The person I initially interviewed with at Business Furniture, she's a wonderful person and I was going to be replacing her as a showroom manager. So she was looking at my predictive index, and I think she was concerned that I didn't have an interior design background. And she was kind of thinking that someone like her who has an interior design degree would be that person that replaced her and maybe a person with a little bit more detail than I possessed. And she didn't really know if I was the right person for this role. She had some doubts about that. She later told me, but then I remember I sat down in the interview with Dick and maybe 30 minutes in, he's like, well, when can you start? This seems like a good fit for you. And I later asked Dick. I'm like, okay, what was it? And he said, I don't know. He said, you just had something about you. There was something about your personality, something about just the way you engaged with me and engaged with the other people in the interview. He said, I just thought that could be something that could be useful to our business. And so I'm so grateful that he saw something in me and he could see a future potential in my role.
Scott Eckart (16:44):
So Mary Beth, one of the things that I was captivated pretty early on, getting to know the Business Furniture story is the unique value proposition of, I'll call it the design studio, but that's not what it is. And it's easier to show than, talk to me a little bit about designing space for the work that you do, the way you have things set up both at your main office and then in the design studio.
Mary Beth Oakes (17:07):
We really do believe at Business Furniture that space can shape behaviors and behaviors, shape your culture, and then culture is really what drives your business forward. I think culture used to be perceived as something that's very soft and fluffy and non-essential to your business, and it's very essential to your business. So we really do believe that space is one of the many levers that you can pull to create a great culture in your company. And so when we think about space, we think about five different work modes, and we always think that there's never one best solution for a client. It could be various things. There's collaboration, there's focus slash concentration, there's socializing, there's rejuvenating, and then there's learning. And if I were to ask any person, if I were to ask you, Scott, what percentage of time every day do you spend in those modes?
Scott Eckart (17:59):
I would have no idea.
Mary Beth Oakes (18:00):
Well, it would be a guess first of all, but it would probably be different how I would answer the question or how anybody else would answer the question. So the point is, it's not a one size fits all. We're in a very unique business where our space is our number one marketing tool. That's really how clients can try to make a decision on who to work with. I had a client recently tell me that he had gone to Steelcase and all of our competitors, all those manufacturers, he looked at all that furniture and I was meeting with him and his executive leadership team, and he said, I'm just so disappointed. And I said, why are you disappointed? And he said, well, I looked at all the furniture and it all looks the same. It's all identical. And he said, do you agree with that or disagree with that?
(18:40):
And I said, well, I don't know if this is a trick question. I said, but I will just tell you honestly, there are similarities in the products. And he said, well, then how do you choose a partner? How would somebody like myself and my team choose a partner? And I said, well, you've got to come visit us. Come visit each one of us and think about the experience we try to create for you. Think about the environment that we've created for our own team and how our team works. And so when people come into our space, yes, they notice the beauty and the aesthetics of it for sure, but we like to also tell a deeper, more meaningful story about how it was designed and why did we create it that way. If I think for an example about our main headquarters space, we created these neighborhoods because we recognize that teams within our company work in different ways.
(19:25):
So we equated it to a neighborhood. And so there's a city neighborhood that's kind of a smaller footprint, hustle bustle, lots of collaboration, lots of connecting people, and that's like our sales marketing design team because they tend to be in meetings, at meetings, offsite, onsite, hustle bustle, and then you have what we call our suburban neighborhood and a little bit larger footprint of space. That's our operations admin team and our client services team. So they tend to be kind of connectors of everything, need a little bit more space to meet with their teams, but they have their neighborhood. Then we have our rural neighborhood or our countryside neighborhood, and those folks, that's our finance team, and they like to be a little bit more separate from the hustle and bustle because they do a lot of heads down, individual focused work. We know that we can make it look amazing. I mean, our interior design team, they're great at making it look amazing, but we also want to make sure that in addition to the form, that there's great function. Another great story, I was meeting with a client one time, they were building an innovation center and they had drafted an initial floor plan and he laid it out on a table and showed me,
(20:30):
And he said, Mary Beth, this is our innovation center, but the way that it's laid out right now, where is the innovation going to happen? And once again, I'm thinking, is he asking me a trick question? And I said, well, help me understand. What do you mean? I said, I would think the innovation's going to happen everywhere. And he said, well, we have just filled it up with individual workstations. And he said, I know. And that's not where the innovation happens. Innovation just by definition by nature happens when you get two people conversing or more than two people conversing. So if we have everybody sitting in individual workstations, how is that going to happen? And so we built this space in Fishers, Indiana, our mindset space to kind of shift the mindset about how people think about collaboration spaces.
Scott Eckart (21:10):
Exactly.
Mary Beth Oakes (21:11):
Now, what was tricky about that, we were ready to roll this out and launch it in 2020 when you know what happened in 2020.
Scott Eckart (21:17):
That thing.
Mary Beth Oakes (21:18):
Little thing called COVID. And so we wondered if we should move forward to it. So in 2021, once it was safe to return, we opened that mindset space. And I was so glad that we did it because I felt like it gave clients a great way to think about collaboration differently. They had missed having people together. They were hearing from their employees that their employees wanted a space that felt very comfortable, but also that facilitated great connection and collaboration like never before. So they saw great examples of that. And so we did that for a couple of years and just had so much fun with that and just so much fun sharing that with our clients. And then we started building a K through 12 team about 10 years ago, and we have a leader of that team very passionate about what happens in a classroom and how the space in that classroom can really drive different outcomes with learning. And so now that space is really dedicated to having educators and administrators come into that space and immerse themselves and try to imagine the possibilities. So it's a flexible space that they can even rearrange and try to think about how they would do it in their school system or in their school. And just, I love that idea of shifting a mindset. You're thinking about how do you shift your mindset to perceive something differently or to create a different outcome, which is innovation, right?
Scott Eckart (22:33):
Yeah. And what I love too about that whole model is when you're in a commodity business, if you're shopping for couches and I can get it $10 cheaper somewhere else. So what you have done is you have gone to this unique value proposition where you're no longer a commodity, but a unique value and that you become, you have no competitors in that.
Mary Beth Oakes (22:57):
And it's not even about, yes, it's about the experience we create for them, but we really want them to think deeply about the experience they're trying to create for their own team, and what are the outcomes they're trying to get from that team? Is it making faster decisions? Is it growing? Is it attracting better talent? What are you trying to do with that space? What are you trying to do as a company? Not even just with your space? What's your vision as a company? Because if that space isn't helping you to do it, then you're not getting the return on your investment and you're investing money in your space, but not getting what you need to get out of that space
Scott Eckart (23:30):
Because that thing ain’t cheap, right?
Mary Beth Oakes (23:31):
No.
Scott Eckart (23:32):
I mean, it's good stuff. And one of the things that I love that I get the most joy out of it is when I work with a company and helping them understand, they're like, well, it's just a commodity and we're in volume business. But I'm like, no, it's not. Let's think about this differently.
Mary Beth Oakes (23:46):
And I'm always just amazed as I watch our team work with clients, how they do think outside the box and how they help our clients to think outside the box. We have three core values, relationships, doing the right thing and innovation. And innovation for us means thinking about how to do it better, thinking about how to be different, thinking about how to lead the way in everything that we do. And so when I see our team members working with clients and trying to do that, it's inspiring to me personally.
Scott Eckart (24:13):
Well, before we move on, tell me about the dogs in the office. Yes. You have a special room.
Mary Beth Oakes (24:18):
We do. We actually, we are a very pet friendly environment at Business Furniture, and we just really believe that pets do bring joy. And so we have many of our employees that bring their dogs to work, especially on Fridays. And we have a designer, her name is Adrian, and she does that as a side business where she will paint a portrait of your dog. And so she had painted portraits of all of our dogs and they were framed, and we have that in our space in the office called the Living Room. And it's just such a joy. It is. You feel like you come into that space and it's like having a piece of home with you right there. That's right. That's a big part of our culture. We're big animal lovers.
Scott Eckart (24:53):
Can we talk a little bit about maybe some of the setbacks or some of the things because people see you now and they think Mary Beth is rainbows and calves and puppy dogs. Certainly there were times that were difficult. I mean, do you mind sharing
Mary Beth Oakes (25:09):
Some of those? Not at all. Even starting Choreo, that was challenging because even though we got to work with some of the best companies ever, they really did challenge us to think differently and do things differently. And that's always a challenge when you feel like you've got these wonderful clients and you really want to live up to what they need. Another challenging time. We had a wonderful president of Business Furniture for many years. He was there for more than 20 years and had done a great job leading our company, just a really good person, a good leader. And when I became our CEO and he was our president, it became obvious to me that he did a great job, but we kind of had a different way of thinking about things. And that was really hard. Unfortunately, a year or two into it, he had some personal challenges at home.
(25:53):
His wife was ill, he did end up leaving the company, and I was very supportive of that, as was Dick. But that was hard. That was hard because he was truly beloved by our employees. And here I am, I'm relatively new, still in my position as CEO, and he leaves and he's this person with so much knowledge about our organization and how things work, especially the operational end of our business, lots of knowledge. And so that was a challenging time. I realized that I knew a lot about the front end of our process, like the client facing portion with the sales and marketing. I knew a lot about that, but I didn't know as much about the backend of our business. And I realized I had a lot to learn, and my brain was definitely on overload. And I also had some empathy for our team because our style was very different.
(26:44):
And so I was kind of watching them adjust and try to figure things out. And we got through that challenge and I learned so much. I mean, it was powerful. And so then things are going great. We have our best year ever, and we're celebrating that best year ever. And of course, a few weeks after that, then we launch into COVID, right? For us, just like many businesses, it was pretty devastating because we didn't know if for reals people would be working from home for forever. So in that first year, we lost 40% of our revenue and it was pretty scary. And we had a new finance team leader, and she was not really familiar with our industry and our business. So that was kind of challenging. She was learning a lot. And that was another time where I just feel like I really grew personally because I had to learn a lot about in the weeds and in the details about our cashflow and how do we get us going again and how do we have to change our invoicing process and how are we going to deal with this supply chain challenge? And there just were a lot of things coming at us pretty fast and pretty furiously. And at the same time you have this wonder, okay, will we all ever come back to the office? What will happen? I mean,
Scott Eckart (27:56):
The great unknown.
Mary Beth Oakes (27:57):
For sure. Yeah, and I had a belief, I had a belief that as humans, we need each other, we need connection. So I had a core belief that most likely we were going to get back there at some point. And that is what has happened. I mean, I think maybe in different parts of the country it's a little bit different, but I know here in Indianapolis, here in the Midwest, generally speaking, companies have desired that their employees return just for the purpose of culture. And that was the same thing for us. So now what we do, we have three days in the office and we ask that on Mondays and Thursdays, our team is there. Those are our community days, and we ask everybody to be there and then you pick your third day. But I will say we have many employees that are there four and five days a week. I think having us back together in that way, I've just seen more cohesiveness. We have a great culture, but I felt like I could start to see some erosion when we were working from home more frequently. I feel much differently about that now. I feel a greater sense of cohesion with our team and better communication. It's not perfect. No company is perfect.
(28:59):
Our company is no exception. We're not perfect. But I see improvements in terms of that cohesiveness, and that just feels better as we're trying to grow and thrive as a business.
Scott Eckart (29:08):
So let's add one dynamic, being female. And growing up in this thing, you have had a really unique point of view from what you were 24, 25. What has that been like? Were you mistreated? Were you ignored? Were you sidelined? Did people take you seriously? How did you earn your place?
Mary Beth Oakes (29:31):
I do think as a female, we've all heard about the glass ceiling and how do you shatter that glass ceiling? I think I was personally very fortunate in my role at Business Furniture and just in working at Business Furniture because gender just was never an issue. So I never felt that kind of discrimination in my career within my company. I will say that I have so many friends and colleagues in other industries that definitely felt that discrimination. So I know that it's real, and I know that even my mom, when she was a teacher raising her four girls, she felt that discrimination because she talked about it. So I know obviously it existed. I just think I was very fortunate Business Furniture, because that was never Dick's way of leading. He just did not see gender, and I always really appreciated that about him. I think what excites me of getting to be a 100% woman-owned business is that we can make sure that nobody, male or female or whatever will feel that discrimination. And I really do feel very passionately that, for example, when it comes to working with procurement and other organizations, I appreciate the fact that we all have opportunities to come to the table to earn the business. I appreciate that.
Scott Eckart (30:41):
So on that note, then, if we think about those coming behind you and you have created an enormous, wonderful path for them, I think when people look at you, they would say, I can do that. And you have, I think, give people hope in that very much so every day. What advice do you have for next generation leaders?
Mary Beth Oakes (31:03):
My advice is to never let fear guide your destiny, right? Because fear can be a terrible thing. Fear can be a good thing. I mean, having a little bit of fear is a good motivator, but it should never stop you from trying something or doing something or making a decision. My husband always says to me, ask yourself, what is the worst thing that can happen? What is the worst thing that could happen if you decide to do this? If you can live with that outcome, you probably should try it. You probably should do it if no one's going to die. And the worst thing that could happen is that you fail or the outcome isn't once you wanted. So hopefully you've learned something. Hopefully that failure really isn't failure, but you've learned something that you can apply to the next situation.
Scott Eckart (31:43):
So I read the other day in Adam Grant's book on leadership. It's called Hidden Potential. It's a wonderful book. He said that one of the keys to leadership is that people who can do it like yourself are comfortable with being uncomfortable. What do you think about
Mary Beth Oakes (31:58):
That? I think that's an extremely true statement. I find myself being uncomfortable many more times than what people might think just uncomfortable with a decision that I've made. Because how is it going to impact somebody else? What if it doesn't work out? You have to settle there and keep moving forward and don't let that discomfort stop you. It does feel bad sometimes, right? I'll be honest. I mean, there are just times when I'm very uncomfortable with a decision I have to make, but I know I have to do it. I guess my experience will tell me that I'm going to feel comfortable again. It's not going to be permanent discomfort. I will feel comfortable. Again, you have to really believe and just have that kind of faith.
Scott Eckart (32:35):
So in light of the rising cost of education and debt, what are your thoughts about an undergraduate degree college? I mean, is that for everybody? What would you say to let's say a 16, 17, 18-year-old?
Mary Beth Oakes (32:47):
I really do think it comes down to what is your passion? What are you interested in? Because not everything that someone might be interested in does require a four year degree. Maybe it's a two year degree, maybe it's some type of an apprenticeship that leads to something else. But I know in Switzerland, they've really expanded those apprenticeships to be in other professional roles like marketing or banking or finance. And I love that because you're getting kind of a non-traditional education at an earlier age. So you really can see what speaks to you, what appeals to you. And then once you figure that out, then I think you can try to understand what is the value of a four year degree for you, or what is the value of a two year degree or some other try to trade school. I think if you can start earlier to figure out really what resonates and what are the opportunities, what are the possibilities, and that we have an infrastructure that supports that. I'm a big believer that you should really think through that. Now, will I say that my four year degree was kind of priceless? Absolutely. But it's kind of interesting. I learned so much from the other people that I went to school with and learned things from my professors, and I think that whole learning experience really shaped who I am today, right? Yes.
Scott Eckart (33:57):
And I think it's not fair sometimes to ask an 18-year-old to make some sort of big life decision like
Mary Beth Oakes (34:04):
That. It's hard to make that decision. A lot of pressure. Well, look at someone like myself. I think I made the right decision in pursuing a different type of a career, but that's okay. I mean, it's okay to try something different.
Scott Eckart (34:13):
And that's the entrepreneur's dream,
Mary Beth Oakes (34:15):
Right? Yes.
Scott Eckart (34:16):
So let's pivot to the Future Proof. That's what this is all
Mary Beth Oakes (34:21):
About. Yes.
Scott Eckart (34:22):
Mary Beth, what are you most excited about as you look down the road? What's next?
Mary Beth Oakes (34:27):
What I'm excited about is really the opportunity for our company to continue to find ways to add value to our client's workplace journey. I think we're in an exciting spot right now where everybody is talking about their workplace. So I get so excited thinking about whether that's a healthcare environment, an education environment, a corporate environment, a small business startup. I get excited about how we can make a difference about where they are at this point in their journey as a company, because I really believe with all of my heart, we can make a difference. So I get really excited about the possibility of growing our business by trying to help our clients do what they do better. That's very exciting to me. And then down the road, I think about what does that look like eventually when Suzanne and I transitioned out of the business, and I know you've helped us with that, and we've talked a lot about that, about what do we need to think about? And you've certainly given us a lot to think about. So that's exciting and scary all at once. When a company has been a part of your life for as long as Business Furniture has been a part of mine, it is kind of hard to close your eyes and imagine that one day
(35:32):
I will have moved on from Business Furniture. So that's a little scary but exciting all at the same time. The other thing that I'm excited about for the future, our company has always been a philanthropic company. That's something that we learned from Dick. When Dick bought the company in 1987, he said that he was buying the company to make a difference in the lives of the employees, in the lives of our clients, and in the lives of the community. So for him, it was never about making a lot of money. I think maybe early in his career he thought that would be wonderful as a salesperson, but I think as time went on, he realized there was something much bigger to strive for and that was making a difference. And so we launched something a couple of years ago called The Big Give, and that is really our effort to really organize our volunteer efforts and really giving of our time, talent, and our treasure as a company to the communities that we live in, Indianapolis and Dayton.
(36:23):
So I know last year our team members volunteered for over 800 hours with 32 different organizations. And so we're continuing that this year, and we just launched something that's kind of cool that I'm very excited about. So each month we're going to be featuring four different not-for-profit organizations. And when clients come to visit our space or guests come to visit our space, we're going to give them each a token when they leave, talk to them about the different not-for-profits that we're featuring, and kind of figure out where do they want to put their chip. And then at the end of the year, we'll make donations to those organizations with the names of those clients that have voted.
Scott Eckart (36:57):
That is such a great fit for your culture.
Mary Beth Oakes (36:59):
So that's the big give how we're trying to engage with our clients, but also the big give is how we engage with our employees about volunteering, time, talent, and treasure.
Scott Eckart (37:09):
So as we talk about Future Proof, for sure, one of the things that I've really been amazed at is your commitment to culture and your talent. And I just look at the longevity of your people as we have talked about these longer term plans. I think one of the things that is critical that owners don't do is that they're not open about their plans. They're not open about looking at who's next, taking over. They won't train, they won't cross share information is power, and if I keep all the information, I have all the power. You're not that person.
Mary Beth Oakes (37:42):
No.
Scott Eckart (37:44):
And really have to give you lots of kudos for doing that. How do you spot talent though? Because you seem to be very good at it, and you also seem to be very good at keeping those folks around.
Mary Beth Oakes (37:55):
Well, it has definitely shifted for me personally over the past several years. We work with a coach, Amy Woodall. Her team is Conscious Habit, and we love Amy, and this is not a theory that Amy developed, but it's a theory that she taught us about, and it's the bat theory. So it's behaviors, attitude, and technique. And Amy's point always was that you can really shape someone's behavior and their technique. So for example, if somebody is constantly late to work, you can help them to work on that behavior to be on time. I tend to be one of those people that's not always on time. And the technique, maybe they need to learn Excel as a part of their job. You can train them on how to do that, but which stands for attitude. That's kind of either there or not there. And so I find myself lately kind of trying to ask questions in the interview process that help me to understand somebody's attitude and their flexibility and just how does that line up with our values?
(38:49):
Because we know, like I said, our values are relationships. So people are everything to us. People mean everything. Doing the right thing, really stepping back and trying to do the right thing in every situation as much as we can. And then the innovation piece and innovation sometimes can, it sounds great, but it can be scary because really innovation means you're going to constantly evolve. So to me, that attitude piece, that attitude is everything. Is it an optimistic attitude? Is it an attitude that's willing to think about how to evolve? I value our team so much that I want to make sure that any person that we add to our team has that attitude to help our company to be better.
Scott Eckart (39:26):
The other thing that I picked up on, we were talking about one individual that I personally like a lot, and you told me that you needed to allow them to, in order for them to stay, they went to a new position, which is hard for us as leaders, right?
Mary Beth Oakes (39:42):
Yes.
Scott Eckart (39:43):
And we recognize talent. And even though that was inconvenient for you, I know it was you let them do something different. And that's another, I think a hallmark of your company is that you're like, Hey, I need to put my needs aside and let this person thrive. Yes. So I've watched you do that.
Mary Beth Oakes (40:00):
You have to do that. And it is hard when somebody wants to grow and evolve into a different role, and you're thinking, oh my goodness, how am I going to backfill that role? They were so good at that. But I think it's important to let everybody have those opportunities. And most of the time they work out. Sometimes they don't work out, and that's okay too. We figure it out at that point. But we've had lots of people in our organization that want to try something different, and I'm always like, let's try it.
Scott Eckart (40:25):
So I got a call from you and you had gotten, I don't know, fax or an email from Steelcase corporate.
Mary Beth Oakes (40:32):
Yes.
Scott Eckart (40:33):
It said, Scott, we need to have our either emergency succession plan or filed 24 hours. We didn't know.
Mary Beth Oakes (40:42):
Yes,
Scott Eckart (40:43):
What do we do? So that led us to a very interesting conversation on a good path. But you did have someone, I guess a friend said, Mary Beth, you're so young. You don't need to be talking about that right now.
Mary Beth Oakes (40:55):
Exactly.
Scott Eckart (40:55):
And your response to her was?
Mary Beth Oakes (40:57):
My response was, well, I didn't think so either. But then I was explaining that I had heard you do a presentation and you were talking to some potential partners, and I loved how you described that. It's really never too early to get started. Maybe I'm not ready to sell the business at this point, which I'm not. But the best time to start is now to think about what does that transition look like? What am I going to need in the future once I retire? What is the business going to need and how do we make sure that we have the people and the resources in place? And that's where that was so helpful. I think when I first started thinking about it, I was probably, I don't know, 53 and I knew I wasn't going to be selling for a while, but I remember you encouraged me to really think about that because there's just a lot to think about as a business owner, a lot of things to sort through. So finding a partner like yourself was very helpful and very meaningful, and just really sitting down and mapping out what that looks like and having a conversation and just really letting yourself live in that and try to figure out what you're going to do and build your plan, which it can't ever start too soon.
Scott Eckart (41:57):
Well, it's also peace of mind. I like people to, when they lay their head on the pillow at night, say, hey, that's just, I have a lot of things to worry about that I do not.
Mary Beth Oakes (42:05):
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Yes.
Scott Eckart (42:07):
And you've been a great advocate for me. I so appreciate that.
Mary Beth Oakes (42:10):
You're a great partner. Definitely.
Scott Eckart (42:13):
Such a big thank you. Our conversation really speaks to what the show is all about, the moments that reshape your business, the action and the mindset it takes to keep moving forward. Here are the three things that really stood out to me for my conversation with Mary Beth as we look at how to future-proof your business. Number one, let talent grow. Even if that means you have to let people move up and move out into new positions, you can't hold them back. Number two, be a mentor and find a mentor. That's really the best way, according to Mary Beth, to really grow and seek new heights in business. And third, in order to really seek new ways of growing and doing new things, you just have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Head to the description of this episode to find links to connect with Mary Beth. The Future is Bright. I'll see you on the next episode. Thank you for listening today. If you like what you've heard, please join us in the Velocity Network and sign up at www.velocoaches.com, which is a gathering of entrepreneurs, business owners, and people who desire to learn more about running and owning a business. Also, you can subscribe to Future Proof on Spotify, Apple, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts.