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Veterans know how to lead. The lessons we learned in the military form the foundation for bigger successes in business, entrepreneurship and community.
Host John S Berry, CEO of Berry Law, served as an active-duty Infantry Officer in the U.S. Army, finishing his military career with two deployments and retiring as a Battalion Commander in the National Guard. Today, his veteran led team at Berry Law, helps their clients fight some of the most important battles of their lives. Leading successful teams in the courtroom, the boardroom, and beyond, veteran leadership drives the firm’s rapid growth and business excellence.
Whether building teams, synchronizing operations, or refining tactics, we share our experiences, good and bad, to help you survive, thrive and dominate.
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[00:00:00.160] - David Mike
They had been investigating me and watching me because I'm at Fort Polk. There was a lot of people doing drugs, a lot of people selling drugs. And the way that you, when you get in trouble, the way you kind of get out of it is you turn, turn somebody in. So my name was turned into them. So they were, they were surveilling me.
[00:00:15.920] - John S. Berry
Welcome to Veteran Led. Today's guest is David Mike, former Army soldier and the author of the book Dishonor. Welcome to the show.
[00:00:24.260] - David Mike
Thank you very much. I appreciate you bringing me on.
[00:00:26.430] - John S. Berry
So this is a great story, David, because we think about the post 911 military and how a lot of soldiers came back after four, five, six deployments. Their wives had remarried or left them, and there was a lot of PTSD and other things that we thought contributed to drug use, criminal activity, and things that got them kicked out of the military. And these were generally pretty good soldiers. But if we go back to the pre 911 days, we knew that our junior soldiers faced a lot of challenges as well. I mean, These are young 18 year old kids that, you know, for the first time in their lives, they may be trying alcohol, they may be in serious relationships that fall apart. And they're these young kids that are experiencing life for the first time and they're gonna make mistakes. Right, and you were one of those kids 100%. And you started off as an army brat or, I'm sorry, Air Force brat. Your dad was in the Air Force. Tell us about that.
[00:01:21.690] - David Mike
So my dad was a career Air Force guy. He was drafted during Vietnam and decided he would join the Air Force as a career and drug us around the world. And we got to see some really cool places, do some cool stuff. And I got super excited about the military as a career. So I took ROTC in high school, a junior version of rotc. Did two years of Marine Corps, two years of Air Force. And I was like really ramped up and ready to go to join the service. I ended up picking the Army. I had a buddy who went in as an airborne scout. I'm like, I want to do that. That's what I want to do. Watching rainbow movies and things like that. So I felt like that was a good path for me and I signed up and joined the army. And it was 1987, I was 17, so pretty young. Parents signed me in, said it was okay to. I think when I look back now, I was maybe premature, could have probably grown up a little bit more before joining. But.
[00:02:09.150] - John S. Berry
Okay, let's just stop right there because. Oh yeah, we know the end of the story here, right? Military brat raised, wants to be a Cav Scout, JROTC. This guy is going to just be a careerist.
[00:02:19.720] - David Mike
100%. Yeah.
[00:02:21.060] - John S. Berry
That's not the story.
[00:02:22.100] - David Mike
No.
[00:02:22.980] - John S. Berry
So you decide that you're going to enlist, going to be a Cav scout. You have a buddy at Fort Bragg. You think you want to go to Fort Hood because you've got a girlfriend there whose dad is stationed at Fort Hood. What happens?
[00:02:34.410] - David Mike
So I ended up at Fort Polk. I went to airborne school and my leg broke during training. And so instead of going to the 82nd Airborne, I went to the 5th Infantry Division at Fort Polk. It was about a six hour drive from there. So I was close enough to Fort Hood. Used to drive there and just kind of, you know, try and do the relationship thing, but it just was a distance, you know, that usually happens when there's too much distance.
[00:02:55.440] - John S. Berry
And he got Jody.
[00:02:56.350] - David Mike
Yeah, remember Jody?
[00:02:57.180] - John S. Berry
Right.
[00:02:57.400] - David Mike
Jody was there. So.
[00:02:58.420] - John S. Berry
So. So now your girlfriend at Fort Hood has a new boyfriend. So tell us what happens.
[00:03:02.420] - David Mike
So she ended up calling off the relationship and I got pretty sad. So some of the friends of my unit told me to go out with them to some of the local clubs.
[00:03:10.960] - John S. Berry
Now, how old are you and what's your rank at this point?
[00:03:12.920] - David Mike
I was a PFC E3. I joined with at that rank. So I was a little bit more elevated than the general entry level soldier. And so I was hanging out with these guys and then we went to the clubs and somebody handed me a pill and I'd never drank or smoke or done any of that kind of stuff before. So my first experience with anything like that, and I immediately was hooked. It was a ecstasy and I didn't find that out until later, but.
[00:03:39.560] - John S. Berry
Okay, but let's, let's. But you grew up in the just say no era paranoid about drugs, right? So tell me how it is that you get handed these pills or the pill and you just take it. You didn't say, hey, this might be a drug or what? What was going through your head?
[00:03:51.640] - David Mike
I think I was just super sad and I wasn't thinking clearly. I never in my life would have ever thought I would have been in that kind of situation. But I guess I was just young and acting on impulse. So they handed it to me and my problems were gone immediately. So. And I think that's the state I tried to stay in for the remainder of the time that I was on active duty.
[00:04:11.460] - John S. Berry
So now as a. I spent a lot of time as a criminal defense lawyer Protecting people's Fourth Amendment rights, that protects them from unreasonable searches and seizures. So I've handled a lot of drug cases where people are unlawfully searched. I try to get that evidence thrown out to support and defend our Constitution, regardless of guilt or innocence. Because, as you know, on the criminal defense side, it is about zealous advocacy and protecting the constitutional rights of the citizen, especially the citizen soldier. And so you are put in a position where. I've seen this happen so many times. Someone who, you know, their brain is not fully developed, young kid is handed drugs, they take drugs, they become addicted, and then to support their habit, to pay for the drugs, what do they do?
[00:04:51.340] - David Mike
Well, I was getting it from my friends because they're like, man, you get it pretty quickly. I knew how to find it pretty fast. And they're like, just give me your money, give me your money, and I'll get it for you. So next thing you know, I'm running, you know, cash to the dealer, and she's like, you're really moving this stuff, so I'm just starting to give you free ones. So I was be able to. I was able to support my habit by selling. So it just kind of escalated from there.
[00:05:13.600] - John S. Berry
Yeah. And here's. Here's the takeaway. It goes very quickly from being a drug user to being a distributor.
[00:05:18.880] - David Mike
Right.
[00:05:19.200] - John S. Berry
AKA drug dealer.
[00:05:20.330] - David Mike
Yeah.
[00:05:20.650] - John S. Berry
So let's.
[00:05:21.200] - David Mike
So.
[00:05:21.460] - John S. Berry
So take us through that. You're able to get. Get it quickly, get it to your friends, you start selling it, you start making a profit with this woman. I believe her name was Jane in the book.
[00:05:29.920] - David Mike
Yeah.
[00:05:30.380] - John S. Berry
And so. So. So take us. At what point did you think, you know, oh, I'm making good money, and this is. This is a good. This is. This is a smart thing to do.
[00:05:37.480] - David Mike
So I wasn't really concerned as much about the money because I wasn't really earning anything. It was just more to support the habit. I was getting free drugs. So I was taking trips from Louisiana to Houston, Texas, which is where her dealer was, and got introduced to the next level, next tier of dealer. And so, you know, I saw a lot of drugs and money transferring between her and him. But me, it was just more for the free drugs. So. Yeah.
[00:06:02.660] - John S. Berry
Okay. And then from that point, did it. And this is. At this point, it's just ecstasy.
[00:06:06.620] - David Mike
Yeah.
[00:06:07.270] - John S. Berry
Take us through then. At that point. Did you ever have a brush with law enforcement when it was just ecstasy?
[00:06:11.820] - David Mike
Yeah, so I was pulled over on post. They said I crossed the yellow line as a way to kind of get me pulled over. They had been investigating me and watching me because I'm at Fort Polk. There was a lot of people doing drugs, a lot of people selling drugs. And the way that you. When you get in trouble, the way you kind of get out of it is you turn. Turn somebody in. So my name was turned into them. So they were. They were surveilling me. Once I got pulled over, I happened to have a little bit of powder, a film canister, in my glove box. They found it, and then I was arrested. Once I was arrested, the officer told me that if I would help him out, that he would help me out. And I was like, that sounds like a great deal. So he released me. I didn't, you know, I didn't have to go to jail. Went back to my unit, and I was like, forget that mess. I'm. I'm going to go ahead and continue doing what I'm doing. Because I was like, I need more. I can't stop.
[00:06:56.780] - David Mike
And.
[00:06:56.960] - John S. Berry
Well, yeah, and let's just stop, right? Because this is. This is a really, I think, important role number one. This is a residue case. They didn't find you with any dope on you. They found a film canister with a little bit of residue, right? That was enough for them to arrest you. So people think, like, you have to have a lot. No, you don't have to have. Residue is enough. It's enough to convict people of a felony. So you have some residue on you. And look, I knew this lawyer, he used to always say, you know, in the federal world, I've had several federal cases over the past two decades. You say, you know, in the criminal federal world, there's two types of people. The people who talked to law enforcement and cooperated, and those who wish they did. Because when it goes federal, a lot of times it's 10 to life and we're gonna get into yours. But here's the thing. At that point, had we just pulled you out of that and said he, you're gonna do pretrial diversion, you're gonna do drug court, or in the civilian world, or there's gonna be some NJP or some training you could have.
[00:07:45.890] - John S. Berry
If you. At that moment, if you would have woken up, you might still be in the military.
[00:07:50.120] - David Mike
Possibly, yeah. And it's hard to say because it was so long ago, but I know that drugs were really calling me. They were really strong and escaping reality, escaping pain and the sorrows of life were more important to me than probably my life. So I don't know that I would have actually stopped or Not. It's hard to say, definitely.
[00:08:12.920] - John S. Berry
And the problem was, and to be fair, that happens with a lot of people. They get into a program and they fail out. Now, in your case, you agreed to cooperate, but you didn't. And then what happened?
[00:08:23.980] - David Mike
We ended up doing another shipment of drugs from Houston, Texas, bring to Louisiana. And then the place that we were saying, I got raped, while, you know.
[00:08:32.060] - John S. Berry
The cops are watching you doing this, like, how stupid is that? Do you look back and say, yeah.
[00:08:36.250] - David Mike
When I wrote this story, I just kept saying, holy cow. What? I drugged my parents through my family, and just how. How stupid I really was. And the decisions that were making were not smart at all. But we definitely got raided. And they arrested Jane, they arrested her boyfriend, and then they told me to go back to the Post, got a phone call from Jane's boyfriend. He escaped, and he said, come pick me up. And I went and picked him up and we moved to Houston, Texas. So I. I basically went awol. Shortly after that, my unit deployed to Panama. So they charged me with desertion, which is pretty. A lot bigger charge than awol. So. Yeah.
[00:09:12.060] - John S. Berry
And. And at this point, then you move on from just. Just ecstasy.
[00:09:16.150] - David Mike
Yeah. So while I was in Houston, I was exposed to a lot of other drugs. I tried lsd, cocaine, crystal meth, just whatever I can get my hands on. I would trade other dealers for what I had, and it just kind of spiraled. And I ended up taking drugs almost every single day just to kind of stay mentally sane, or what I thought was mentally sane. So I was very, very deep in and I couldn't find a way out.
[00:09:38.720] - John S. Berry
And at some point, then the way. The way out is you get picked up again.
[00:09:43.660] - David Mike
Yeah. So I was in Louisiana, and they knew I was going to be there, and so they came in and grabbed me. And I happened to have, I think it was 100 hits of ecstasy on.
[00:09:54.000] - John S. Berry
Now, this is at a club.
[00:09:55.010] - David Mike
Yep, a club in Alexander, Louisiana, which is about an hour away from Fort Polk. And so I went in there, but the night before, randomly, it was kind of crazy because I told people if I ever got arrested, I was either going to do suicide by cop or I'm going to take all the drugs. I'm just going out. I'm not going to jail. You know, forget that mess. And I've not done this before. But usually when you, when you are selling lsd, you need to put them in little plastic bags because the drug can transfer to your skin and then, you know, you'll absorb it and then you're on drugs. So I had these leftover bags and I put all of the ecstasy in the bags. And like I said, I'd never done that before. But I feel like it was a divine intervention, because had I been caught, I would have downed as many ecstasy pills as I could have to take myself out. So I. That saved my life for sure. But I ended up throwing my jacket on the ground with the drugs in it, and they never found them. So when they arrested me, I didn't have anything on me.
[00:10:44.760] - David Mike
But the guy that arrested me kind of told me later, because we reconnected, that he saw something in me and he decided to help me out later in. In. In the story. So it was kind of a. A divine intervention all the way around.
[00:10:57.800] - John S. Berry
Right? That law enforcement officer who arrested you later ended up helping you out. And we'll get to that. So at this point, you get arrested and you've got pending charges, desertion, drug charges, Your record is a mess. What happens?
[00:11:13.260] - David Mike
So my dad was supposed to come to my trial, and he was the only one I thought that would really stick up for me. And something was delayed. So when they released me back to my unit after taking me out of the jail, I decided I needed to leave again. So I ran away again and I disappeared to Dallas, Texas, where a couple soldier friends of mine had gotten out and were living there. And after about a week, I was feeling this really strong urge to return. The officer called me, the CID officer called me on the phone and said, you need to turn yourself in. Let's get this over with. And I found out at that time my parents were in, a whole community of people were praying for me pretty hard. And I feel like God was talking to me and telling me to turn myself in. So I did, went ahead, went back to Fort Polk. A lot of crazy stuff in the book happened all along the way there. But once I got back there, they put me back in jail, and I ended up having a court martial. I was facing 36 years and I ended up getting five.
[00:12:05.410] - David Mike
And I was reduced in rank to E0 or E1. No rank at all. Five year sentence, and then also a dishonorable discharge.
[00:12:17.270] - John S. Berry
And you thought if you'd get 4 or less, you might go to a less restrictive facility than Fort Leavenworth. But what happened?
[00:12:25.790] - David Mike
I got shipped to Fort Leavenworth. I had to go a couple places along the way, but once I get to Leavenworth, I had to serve out my sentence there. And it was very interesting place. It was really old. I think it was 150 years old at the time. And a lot of people have come in out there, but it's hard to describe unless you've ever been inside of that place. But it was very dark. A lot of time to kind of sit in a cell and think about what you've done, that the life that you were living and just a lot of self reflection, probably drug coming off of the drugs was hard. And then just being in a place that full of soldiers and the patriotism and serving your country and honoring God and family and all that just really hit me hard. It was tough to be there, for sure.
[00:13:09.840] - John S. Berry
And the interesting thing about your book Dishonor is not much has been written about the disciplinary barracks at Fort Leavenworth. So tell us about that.
[00:13:17.090] - David Mike
So you mean as far as what happened in the disciplinary barracks?
[00:13:20.660] - John S. Berry
Yeah, I mean, you cover it very well in your book. But my point is like, there really wasn't there. If you want to know what happens at Fort Leavenworth from like a first person perspective, read the book because you go through and explain a lot of stuff in detail as to what happens. And the interesting thing is for most of our listeners, veterans, we all know a soldier who went astray or was at some point in their career, probably went to Leavenworth and we wonder what happened and what happened to them. And like I said, I think for most of our listeners, hey, read the book and you'll get to learn about all of it. So here's the interesting thing. I think that at this point, most people think, okay, I'm a convicted felon, I've been in prison, you know, I'm got a dishonorable discharge. It's over for me. Right, but it wasn't for you. So how did you, how did you get past all of this to have the successful life and family that you have now?
[00:14:11.310] - David Mike
So while I was in Leavenworth, there was a few moments where I had some clarity. You know, I went through some programs in order to kind of rebuild, rehabilitate, rehabilitate myself. I don't feel like the programs really helped me. It was more of a button pushing thing. If you didn't take the programs, then you wouldn't get out early. So I did it because I had.
[00:14:27.710] - John S. Berry
To just like the military, check the block.
[00:14:29.280] - David Mike
Check.
[00:14:29.470] - John S. Berry
Check the block.
[00:14:30.160] - David Mike
Yeah, definitely was checking boxes. I can't really tell you what I learned in any of those classes, but there was one moment I had been in prison for about a year and a half and I was in the dining facility, which is where I Worked and a guy walked up to me and he put his hand out and he had two hits of LSD in his hand. And I don't know if he was giving them to me or not, but I took one and I consumed it immediately from a knee jerk reaction. And me and him were kind of on drugs the whole day. Nobody really caught us. But I went back to my barracks where I was living, and there was a letter from my dad that was sitting there and it said that he would stake his job, his reputation, his life on the fact that I would never do drugs again. And I got it the same day that I took the drugs. So again, another God moment for me.
[00:15:12.240] - John S. Berry
So someone got drugs. See, people don't realize this. Someone got drugs into the disciplinary barracks at Fort Leavenworth, right?
[00:15:18.610] - David Mike
I don't know how they got in there. And I had not really seen any drugs up until then. But definitely that was a moment for me where I realized that the actions that I was taking that were selfish, I was hurting the people that love me and putting my family in a position that they shouldn't have been in because of things that I was doing. So I swore drugs off on that day and that was it for me. Later on, I was listening to a radio broadcast and I heard a guy talking, and it was a preacher, and he was talking about the grace and forgiveness, which are words you hear in church. But growing up in church, I didn't really understand what that meant. But he did mention, he asked, somebody was calling in and asking a question. And he asked the guy, when Jesus died on the cross for your sins, how many of them were in the future? And the guy said, all of them. I'm like, oh my gosh, he died for all of my sins even before I was born. And he said, you've been forgiven for everything you've done.
[00:16:05.070] - David Mike
Because I was dealing with a lot of guilt, shame and emotions from having screwed up my life and disgracing everybody. And then I realized that I was forgiven. And at that moment, also after swearing off drugs and then realizing that I was a forgiven child of God, that I didn't really have to worry anymore about the labels that were going to be put on me when I left prison, as far as being a, a former convict, former drug dealer, you know, a dishonorable soldier. And that was super freeing for me more than being released from prison for sure.
[00:16:32.830] - John S. Berry
And then, and then as you're, you know, going through the process, obviously, you know, there's a whole parole board, there's all These things that you have to do, and eventually you get to the point where, you know you're going to get out and. And you've got to figure out what you're going to do on the outside and. And. And you kind of beat the odds and get an opportunity. Tell us about that.
[00:16:49.970] - David Mike
So my dad was stationed at off road Air Force base here in Omaha. And so they were three hours away, and they said they would take me in. And I know a lot of guys, when they get out of prison, some of the issues that they have is they have no support system. They go back to the same community they were in with the same problems. So I was moving from, you know, Kansas to Nebraska, which I've never been in. I had none of the people that I was hanging out with, none of the same situations or problems I was going to be in, and have very super supportive family who helped me get on my feet. So he. I decided I wanted to get into the world cosmetology, because in high school I kind of was like a barber, and I did the barracks barber thing in the military. So I'm like, let's do hair. That's. That's what I want to do. So he helped me sign up for hair school. And so I got out of Leavenworth. I was on parole, so I had to stay clean, obviously, which was a good thing as well.
[00:17:38.710] - David Mike
I was on parole for, I think, about two and a half years where I had to do urinalysis about six times a month for a good two years. It was kind of crazy. And then went to hair school. And while I was in hair school, the owner of the school told me, I think you need to be a teacher. And I was like, okay, I think maybe I'll do that then. So then I became a teacher, and that's been my career for a little over 30 years now.
[00:17:59.100] - John S. Berry
Well, and in the book, there's some pictures of you, and obviously you were kind of into the, you know, the 80s, hairstyles and stuff, but I was wondering when I went through my battalion command school, I remember I was getting my haircut on base, and it was like, it was only like three bucks, and there was an MP standing there the whole time. What I didn't figure out was there was also a program at that time through the disciplinary barracks where you could learn to cut hair. And it was not the cosmetology school you went to, but it was the barracks room barbers. And we all had. Because it was like, you know, sometimes you wanted to save the whatever it was $8 to get your haircut back then. Or you. It may be Sunday night and you need a haircut Monday morning formation. So. So you'd been the guy that was doing that. Cutting that, you know, cutting the hair. And like I said, the barracks bar. You said the barracks barber. And so you decide you want to go into cosmetology. You, like I said, you get into the school by the grace of God and the kindness of the institution and your dad's word.
[00:18:49.510] - John S. Berry
Yes, you get in. And now you're. And someone says, hey, you know what you're really good at? Teaching training, right? Just like military, we learn how to train. You're training people. And he says, hey, you need to start training other people. And so that's what you do, and you start training people in this. But that then spills over to another area of your life where there are. You're helping other people who have been through what you have been through. And I think this is important because a lot of us, you know, if you haven't climbed the mountain, you know, you don't know what you're talking about. And this is a mountain most of us never want to climb, but you climbed it, right? And you got to the top and said, you know, like, this is. This is. You screw up your life, and this is how you. This is how you climb your way out, and this is where you rebuild your life. And when you did that, now, not only are you training people, you know, to. With cosmetology, where you're training people who. Or retraining people who said, man, I screwed up my life.
[00:19:41.540] - John S. Berry
It's over. There's no hope, there's no possibility. And you. How do they connect you? And how did this develop? And also, well, let's start there. But I want to talk about how you wrote the book, too, because I think that's really important.
[00:19:51.140] - David Mike
Well, one of the cool things about being in the cosmetology education industry is that I have a lot of people who are the age that I was when I got in trouble. So they're going through this mental process of acting on impulse and maybe doing things and getting in trouble, not saying all, like, the kids that I teach are in that situation, but it makes me relatable because they realize, you know, because I'm pretty open about my story, that I've been through some stuff and that I can understand. I'm empathetic about it. And so it's been a really rewarding career just seeing people, you know, learn how to do Hair and open salons. And actually my. The. The owner of the school that I work at now is one of my former students. So it's kind of full circle there and just seeing people really live their dreams. But I'm also able to talk to people about maybe some of the problems that they're going through in their life, because I've been through pretty much all of. Yeah, yeah.
[00:20:40.520] - John S. Berry
And I think that it's so important that, you know, you were. We think about the. The young people coming out of high school and they decide they want to go through cosmetology or something like that, you know, and there's. You're right. A lot of them have never had mentors. Maybe if they played sports, maybe they had a coach, maybe a teacher who took an interest in them. But most of them haven't had mentors. And at that age, our brains are not fully developed. We're making bad decisions. I mean, who here hasn't worked with that young, you know, private specialist who, you know, who kept getting busted down and making bad decisions and then eventually made sergeant, you know, but it's like there's a maturing, and if we don't have mentors, right, Either a strong NCO or someone to help us, we never get there.
[00:21:16.850] - David Mike
Right.
[00:21:17.430] - John S. Berry
And you're that person for a lot of people now.
[00:21:19.460] - David Mike
Yes. And I'm actually starting to develop some of the other. Other educators that are coming through. So a little bit of a tear up from there and helping the educators be empathetic and learn how to basically love the student that you're teaching instead of just being a skull cracker, which is kind of how I started out, having come from the military.
[00:21:38.170] - John S. Berry
Skull cracker.
[00:21:38.810] - David Mike
I love that.
[00:21:39.800] - John S. Berry
So, all right, so let's talk a little bit about how you wrote the book. So this actually started as a blog and it got a lot of attention. The book has done really well, I think, because of the blog, because you had a following before you published the book. So tell us about that.
[00:21:54.540] - David Mike
So I joined a Facebook group by a guy named John Acuff. He's just kind of a motivational guy. And so I said that I wanted to tell my story, and when I did, people who had written books before said, you should probably do a blog first because what's going to happen with that is you're going to develop a following, which is exactly what happened. So I wrote about a thousand words a week for about three years. And at the end of the story, when I finally got to the very end, I compiled it all and put it into a book and then released it. And so then all the people who had been following along with the blog helped me launch the book basically. So I had a, like a Facebook group with about 750 people in it to help push it out. And it was just kind of a really cool experience. I, growing, growing up, I was a storyteller my entire life. Because as a military kid you move around and you always have to tell where you lived before what you did. And that's just kind of like the nature of moving around.
[00:22:45.910] - David Mike
But when I would tell people little pieces of my story, they're like, you did what? You don't seem like that type of person. You should write a book. And I was like, I don't really know if I could do that. But a lot of things just fell in place and I feel like there was some again, divine intervention and it came out and it was able to go on Amazon. I self published it so I could control the book because I do ship it to inmates for free. So if anybody's out there struggling or wanting their family member who is incarcerated to know that there's light at the end of the tunnel, I definitely will ship a book for free.
[00:23:14.720] - John S. Berry
Outstanding. And I'm going to get to this at the end where people can learn more about the book and learn more about you. But I want to go to the After Action Review now. The three examples of great leadership and three examples of poor leadership. Don't have to name names. Let's go to the great leadership.
[00:23:28.330] - David Mike
So great leadership. I feel like the owner of the school that I used to work at, who mentored me, used to always work side by side with me. He was actually in the industry, which was a benefit to me because I could learn from him while, and watch how he treated people. But also the craft. He was an excellent hairdresser and so his craft was amazing. And so he would work shoulder to shoulder with students with the staff. And I think that's that to me that's a really great form of leadership. You know, you can always tell somebody what to do, but when you do it with them, it just makes it more real. So I would say that was probably one of, one of the best mentor I, I probably ever had. And my current boss is really, it's really interesting because I, I love reading and she's constantly giving books about leadership and, and mentoring and, and how to inter engage with people. Because if you can't give it to somebody, you know, through osmosis, if you can read about it you're going to learn a little bit more. So I think reading is, you know, getting books about leadership is going to be the next best thing.
[00:24:30.250] - John S. Berry
Leaders are readers.
[00:24:31.140] - David Mike
There you go.
[00:24:31.500] - John S. Berry
Yeah, leaders are readers. Okay, and then what? Who's the third example of great leadership?
[00:24:35.540] - David Mike
I think that's probably the only two I can think of. I'm not sure if I have anybody else that top off the top of my head.
[00:24:41.880] - John S. Berry
Well, I mean, certainly your leadership by example, by helping others, you know, and of course, we never looked at mention now that the bad leadership, whether in the military or outside. Well, no. Okay. But the other example of great leadership was a guy who talk about this because this is the end of the book. We talked about this in the beginning that there was a law enforcement officer who gave you a chance to cooperate. You didn't and said he's got to be in a little more trouble before, but he gave you a second chance. And I think you called him Thundercloud in the book. But he gave you a second chance and you guys reconnected and his leadership was such that he kind of believed in you. He went to bat for you at sentencing.
[00:25:20.960] - David Mike
So normally when you have a CID agent arrest you, he is going to be on the prosecuting side. Yes, but he actually testified on the defense side for me, because of the fact that I cooperated and helped him after the second arrest. And he believed in me. And something inside of him. He told me that he had a little. Little voice telling him that helped this kid out. And then he said that basically God told him to help me. So I think because he helped me out, I didn't have to spend as much time in jail, which could have been really detrimental. Facing 36 years and ended up only doing about three because of. Of his leadership. It was a good example. Yeah, I didn't think about that.
[00:25:58.170] - John S. Berry
And you've actually. And I think the great story is the guy that arrests you, the guy that's the CID agent that's been pursuing you, you guys are now friends and you've met since you've been out.
[00:26:06.440] - David Mike
Yeah, we had a chance to have coffee together and he likes sharing my book with students that he teaches. And so it's been an interesting journey over these years, especially to reconnect with a guy that arrested you.
[00:26:17.690] - John S. Berry
Yeah. So now the bad leadership, the things that may have pushed you into drugs or pushed you away from the military or since you've been out.
[00:26:26.290] - David Mike
Okay. So I have two examples. And the first example is basically the whole way that the military operates when I was in used to be respect the rank, not the person. And just to have to say that tells you the type of person that's behind the rank. So I always felt like there was leaders that were in charge of me who would like, I'm use the word abuse you because they had the stripes. So I always didn't think that that was a very good form of leadership. The second is I'm going to use myself as an example. And the reason why is once I got out of prison and having that military background, when I first started teach these young, mostly females, I was thinking like a male, first of all. And second of all, I was like, what do you mean, no, you can't tell me, no, you have to do it. And I didn't realize that I wasn't in the military anymore. And my boss told me, yeah, you're not in the military, and you have to kind of like, figure this out. So I started reading marriage books because I'm married, you know, and I want to stay married.
[00:27:15.850] - David Mike
And I realized, oh, women don't think the same as men. That was my first revelation. So just kind of like retraining myself to. To actually teach in a way that I could give them the information, but also they could feel heard. So I would say I was a bad leader when I started. And I developed over the years into what I think is a pretty decent.
[00:27:34.360] - John S. Berry
Leader, and I think that's great. I think that's the thing is as leaders, we're always improving, and it doesn't matter where you start, it really matters that you're continuing to improve and develop yourself. So where can listeners veteran led. Learn more about your book Dishonor or learn more about you.
[00:27:51.650] - David Mike
David Mike, so you can find me on Facebook, just. David Mike, if you find my dad, he's way greater than me. So it's, you know, it's the younger version. Also Amazon. You can get the book on Amazon if you need a physical copy, or it's on Audible and Apple Books if you want the audio version.
[00:28:08.880] - John S. Berry
Outstanding. And I think, you know, the big message here is that your life is not over if you screw up. Look, we all make bad decisions, and some of us pay more than others, and some of us make worse decisions than others. But at the end of the day, you know, it was. It was your faith in God, it was the people in your life, and it was your purpose that. That pulled you out of this. And now you're married. I think you have three children, Is that right?
[00:28:33.160] - David Mike
I have five children.
[00:28:34.010] - John S. Berry
Oh, wow. That's old picture.
[00:28:36.280] - David Mike
Yeah. So I have five children. I have two from a previous marriage and then the three with my wife. So.
[00:28:41.930] - John S. Berry
Yeah, outstanding. And for the, you know, for, for those of us that wonder what happened to some of our soldiers that went to Leavenworth, like I said, this is a great book that tells what it's like there. But more importantly, it's a book about redemption. At Veteran Led. We'd like to talk about the bigger, better future after military service. And for you, for a lot of, I think people that go through UCMJ or that have a dishonorable discharge, the message of hope here is you can have a great life afterwards and you have an amazing life now. And what is the one thing that I guess the piece of advice you could give the listeners to say this is what keeps me going day in.
[00:29:21.280] - David Mike
Day out, knowing that I'm forgiven and that I don't have to live in the guilt and the shame of my past has been the thing that's kept me going through the rest of my life because had I had to deal with that, I don't know that I would have made it this far. I'm super thankful for the people in my life who believed in me, who pushed me through all of the mess that I was in, and then obviously God for constantly pursuing me and chasing me down even when I try to run away so many times from Him.
[00:29:53.320] - John S. Berry
Thank you for joining us today on Veteran Led, where we pursue our mission of promoting veteran leadership in business, strengthening the veteran community, and getting veterans all of the benefits that they earned. If you know a leader who should be on the Veteran Led podcast, report to our online community by searching veteranled on your favorite social channels and posting in the comments. We want to hear how your military challenges prepared you to lead your industry or community and we will let the world know. And of course, hit subscribe and join me next time on Veteran Led.