How to Think Bigger When You're Facing Your Biggest Challenge

I've been working on one of the biggest projects of my career.

And I needed some advice.

A major European company hired me to create a customized Ai training experience for an organization with thousands of employees.

The goal? Help people think bigger, embrace new technology, and discover entirely new ways to solve problems.

Sounds exciting, right?

It is.

But after decades of teaching entrepreneurs, I was suddenly preparing to work with a very different audience.

Different countries. Different languages. Different departments. Different attitudes toward Ai.

And some people who might not want to be there at all.

So I turned to my friend and Capability Amplifier co-host, Dan Sullivan.

What happened next was one of the most useful coaching conversations I've had in a long time.

Dan walked me through a simple framework he uses at Strategic Coach to help people understand what's working, what's not working, and what they can do differently.

Then he introduced three types of people you'll find in almost every group: players, shoppers, and prisoners.

That alone changed how I was thinking about the entire experience.

We also explored the Four C's of confidence, the psychology of change, and why helping people feel comfortable with new ideas can be more important than teaching them another tool.

IN THIS EPISODE:

• Why I took on one of the most challenging projects of my career
• Dan's framework for simplifying complex business problems
• The three types of people you'll encounter when leading a team
• How to help people think bigger when they're stuck
• Why successful organizations struggle with complexity
• The Four C's - commitment, courage, capability, and confidence
• How to make Ai training more engaging and useful
• Why the best learning experiences start with the people in the room
  
  

One of my favorite moments comes near the end when Dan shares a simple lesson about being a great host.

It completely reframed how I was thinking about the event.

If you're an entrepreneur, founder, or leader taking on something bigger than you've done before, I think you'll appreciate this conversation.

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 - My Biggest Career Challenge
01:39 - Teaching a Company to Think Bigger
05:01 - Designing the Ai Experience
09:06 - What Always Works
14:33 - My Five-Step Innovation Framework
15:58 - Why People Get Overwhelmed
20:34 - Context Before Content
22:44 - New, Better, and Different
25:46 - Players, Shoppers, and Prisoners
32:09 - What Does a Home Run Look Like?
36:21 - The Four C's
41:54 - Dan's Thinking Framework

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Creators and Guests

Host

Dan Sullivan of Strategic Coach

Dan Sullivan is founder and president of The Strategic Coach Inc. A visionary, an innovator, and a gifted conceptual thinker, Dan has over 40 years’ experience as a highly regarded speaker, consultant, strategic planner, and coach to entrepreneurial individuals and groups.

Host

Mike Koenigs

Mike Koenigs helps business owners and entrepreneurs get paid for BEING, instead of DOING by becoming Transformational Business Influencers, authorities and thought-leaders to create impact, income and a great lifestyle.

What is Capability Amplifier?

Join the eternally curious, interested, and interesting hosts, Mike Koenigs of the SuperPower Accelerator and Dan Sullivan of Strategic Coach®, to amplify your capabilities, value, status, and authority on the Capability Amplifier podcast. Ever episode focuses on a new mindset, shortcut or deep thinking exercise that will improve your performance and lifespan. Learn more at: https://www.CapabilityAmplifier.com

Dan Sullivan [00:00:00]:
You know, I don't know if I've ever done a podcast in the situation that we're doing today's podcast because you're taking on within the next 2 weeks the greatest project that you've ever done in your entire life. It's the biggest payday that you've ever had. And part of you is very excited and part of you is scared shitless. Why don't we just talk about how other people when they're in this type of situation. How do they handle really, really scary, scary situations? But the payoff is so huge that it's worth the risk.

Mike Koenigs [00:00:37]:
It is. This is gonna be a super interesting episode. And just to preframe you, the listener and the viewer, as Dan said, I'm up against and have an opportunity which is one of the largest in my career. It's also the most taxing. And Dan expertly walks through the psychology of being able to get yourself out of the weeds and get people to feel as though even if they've tried everything, how to think bigger and how to think outside of the box when they're stuck in their thinking. And Dan shares an exercise that he uses that can solve virtually any problem and communicate more successfully with the teams around him. And get better every time. This is an intense episode just filled with all sorts of mindsets and tools and resources you can apply in your business and in your life, and also increase your courage, your confidence, and your capabilities at the same time.

Mike Koenigs [00:01:39]:
I know you're gonna enjoy this episode, so let's hit it. All right, so here's the setup, Dan. When people feel like they've tried everything, how do you get them to think bigger? And then how do you get people to think outside the mold when they're currently stuck in their own thinking and they feel like they've exhausted all the options? Now, the reason I wanted to set this up is because I am leaving in a few days to speak to a European company that has thousands of employees and I'm training them AI. And the theme is think different, think bigger, and think 10x. And they are a large conglomerate that gathers up multiple companies in different countries and they're in the industrial sector. I'm under NDA, so I can't say specifically who they are, but they brought me in for 2 days to do a workshop. And each one is designed to get them to think differently about engaging with their prospects and their leads and getting their attention, which of course is the hardest thing to get. And another one is how to automate all of their use cases and case studies.

Mike Koenigs [00:03:08]:
So for— think, for example, if someone, uh, you've got all the people who belong to Strategic Coach, if you captured use cases and case studies and it matched them automatically with new prospects and said, there's someone just like you, so it does all that work automatically. Or another thing that we're working on is something that analyzes all their competitors and figures out what language patterns they use that they can model so they can own the market. The list goes on and on. There are all these examples, but at the end of each one, when people are experimenting with AI, getting results, I've got to be able to capture proof that they got something out of this so they want to continue to work with us and, of course, pull the greatest gems out of their heads so the organization isn't siloed, that we share that information. They've never put all these people in one place before for a single purpose, which is to, quote unquote, learn AI. But really what we're focusing on is much bigger than AI. It even goes into the culture of the company. That's the setup, Dan.

Mike Koenigs [00:04:23]:
My hope is that you'll ask me some questions. When we get to this, just like what you do, I think you're the best in the world at this, is You know how to set up a room, get them to think bigger, think differently, and go through an experience. And at the end of it, actually say, here's what I got out of it. Here's what I'm going to do next. So if you were me, what would you do? And what are the tools and the mindsets that you consistently use that to me are not always obvious? They aren't to the magical experience of being in Strategic Coach.

Dan Sullivan [00:05:01]:
Just a few questions to start off with. So how many are in the room that you're dealing with?

Mike Koenigs [00:05:09]:
There will be approximately 60 physical and around 80 online. It's going to be a blended mixed room.

Dan Sullivan [00:05:18]:
Okay. And how did you have— we were chatting before we started the podcast here. So the thing that I'm talking about, you've already broken it down into sort of like 8 modules. Is that right?

Mike Koenigs [00:05:32]:
Yeah, 4 modules a day. So there's like a free frame.

Dan Sullivan [00:05:35]:
What would be an example of one of the modules?

Mike Koenigs [00:05:38]:
Yes, um, one of them, for example, will be I'm going to be demonstrating, uh, Let's see, I'm going to think of one of the best ones. One of them, for example, is I'm going to be demonstrating how to use a couple of AI tools and specifically one called Notebook, which is from Gemini, where they've got huge volumes of content, case studies, technical information, and oftentimes it might be in multiple languages. I'm going to show them how They can take really complicated stuff. One of the examples is I take a training product that's written in Dutch, English, and German. For whatever reason, it's in multiple languages. I take that and I make it much easier to understand and read, and it converts everything into English. They'll be able to do that too. Another example will be, They sell really complex industrial equipment, hard to get your head around.

Mike Koenigs [00:06:52]:
With one button, it takes, again, a multilingual piece of information that's 60 pages long and it turns it into a minute-and-a-half-long explainer video. Yeah. These folks haven't been exposed to that kind of tool before and this idea of being able to come up with a first draft in a few minutes that get them to think differently and cross the language barrier. That's an example of one of the modules.

Dan Sullivan [00:07:24]:
Yeah. So, uh, one of, one of the things, uh, is that they're obviously a very successful com— uh, company that they're already doing it, and they're a big, you know, they're a big company. There is, you know, in US dollars, you gave me their, you know, you gave me the sort of their numbers to begin with. And you mentioned you put it in euros because that's the currency that they're using. And that works out roughly, you know, they're like a billion-dollar US company. Yep. And so my big thing is that they have a lot of things already going for them. So would it be okay with you if I share the book that I'm writing right now because it exactly addresses this question?

Mike Koenigs [00:08:17]:
Sure.

Dan Sullivan [00:08:18]:
Yeah. So my sense is that it's actually their failures that's the interesting information. But I'll start, I'll actually start with you rather than with them. Can I start with you?

Mike Koenigs [00:08:34]:
Sure.

Dan Sullivan [00:08:35]:
Okay. From the standpoint of what you're able to do now with AI, what really works where you, you're introducing AI? And they're probably all using it in one way or another, right? They're already using AI. Yeah, they're using it for them. The individuals are using it for themselves. Okay. So I'd like to just address it from your point of view because you're going to be the presenter and you're the person who is Brought in to be the problem solver.

Mike Koenigs [00:09:06]:
Yep.

Dan Sullivan [00:09:06]:
Okay. So I'd just like you to just go through for a few minutes what always works when Mike comes into a situation like this. 2 or 3 things that always work when you're brought in. First of all, they've obviously seen you before. They've obviously—

Mike Koenigs [00:09:27]:
Yes.

Dan Sullivan [00:09:28]:
Have experience with you. So what always works when you're presenting the possibility of using new, better, different kinds of AI tools to solve a— they got a complex— they have a ceiling of complexity problem.

Mike Koenigs [00:09:45]:
Yes, they do.

Dan Sullivan [00:09:46]:
Yeah. And we just got the patent for a concept called the ceiling of complexity from the US Patent Office. And it's called the ceiling of complexity. Basically, they just, Their success is actually driving them into complicated situations. And one of the reasons is they've grown a lot and they're using different languages, spoken languages, written languages. And so what always— name me 3 things that always work when Mike Koenig is brought in. to solve a ceiling of complexity problem? What, just 3 things right off the top.

Mike Koenigs [00:10:33]:
Okay. The first thing I do, and what I'm doing at the beginning of every module, is I begin with an animated short that shows them a future version of themselves in 3 minutes. And it shows how AI Can solve that problem and communicate an idea very quickly that everyone will understand. And then I walk through a case study that's either about them or relevant to them, showing them how it would work. And then we do an exercise together that gets people to work individually on solving The problem, and then they share in groups what they've learned and then report back. So that's effectively the framework that I've learned. I can take really, really complicated ideas and build and show that framework. So I'll stop by answering that, and then afterwards I'll give you the framework I always use.

Mike Koenigs [00:11:50]:
when I'm teaching AI that resonates with an audience and they get it because it's only 5 steps.

Dan Sullivan [00:11:59]:
Right. Yep. Okay. So what I got from you is that your animated short is really crucial. First of all, you're using AI to actually create the short.

Mike Koenigs [00:12:16]:
Yes.

Dan Sullivan [00:12:17]:
And You're giving a big context, but you're bringing it down to a very short message. Okay. Okay. Okay. And the other thing is that you give a test example. You do a test example, but you have a simple exercise for them to do on an individual basis. And this would be best if it actually used their experience exercise. Okay.

Dan Sullivan [00:12:47]:
And then they do it individually and then they get together and they're able to do it in a group. And then you have a general discussion about what they learned from it. Okay. And this happens, so start to finish, how long would this first, you know, getting them, getting their feet on the ground?

Mike Koenigs [00:13:04]:
Yeah.

Dan Sullivan [00:13:04]:
How long would it take?

Mike Koenigs [00:13:06]:
Okay. So I open up and I've used this example before.

Dan Sullivan [00:13:11]:
This works for all 8 modules. In other words, the thing that you're doing There's something that you're always going to do in the 2 days, and you're going to do it 4 times for different topics. And you're going to— so it's 8 topics over the course. Okay.

Mike Koenigs [00:13:27]:
That's correct.

Dan Sullivan [00:13:28]:
Right.

Mike Koenigs [00:13:28]:
So if I— the— I'll give you the use case example that I can for sure share because I've used it in the past, which I spoke for NASA. And they brought me in and their big, their moonshot literally is to get back to the moon and then get to Mars by 2040. So they asked me to come in and teach generative AI to a very diverse group. So it's very similar to this. So people from all over the world and, you know, everything from government workers to scientists to literally astronauts, engineers, students. generative AI to solve problems. And so I opened up with a big problem. In their case, respiratory health in space.

Mike Koenigs [00:14:17]:
Your lungs don't work right. So

Dan Sullivan [00:14:20]:
one problem.

Mike Koenigs [00:14:21]:
Yeah, yeah. It's— there's a whole bunch of other problems. There's like food, there's mental health, there's energy production, all that.

Dan Sullivan [00:14:27]:
And the biggest problem with humans in space is humans.

Mike Koenigs [00:14:30]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's

Dan Sullivan [00:14:31]:
what space does to humans.

Mike Koenigs [00:14:33]:
Our bodies don't want to be there. There you go. Yeah. And so I introduced 5 steps. So it's capture your IP. In other words, we ideate together and it's collaborative is best. And then pitch your idea, which is how I always start with the animated video. And then prototype a solution.

Mike Koenigs [00:14:54]:
So what I did with NASA is I just took the conversation. I said, build an app that solves this problem. And then you iterate, which is test it and keep on, like I always say, you gotta create the first ugly baby, which is just like be willing to make something that doesn't work, isn't great. Mm-hmm. So you can have a conversation and make it better and then have a commitment to launch as fast as possible to put it in front of a paying customer. So in that particular case with NASA, I demonstrated a conversation to a video, to a prototype, to being able to take it to what launch would look like. In this case, launch was in the room. Iteration was the conversation in the room.

Mike Koenigs [00:15:46]:
It doesn't mean it has to be sold, but it just means you have to get it in front of a buyer. Mm-hmm. So that would be the breakdown of my teaching style.

Dan Sullivan [00:15:58]:
I'm just in one category right now, just what always works when Mike works with the group. So to me, that's the interesting topic is what always works for you. And then once we get it clear about what works and what doesn't work. Now let's move to the second column is that what doesn't work and why it's It's a perpetual problem because that's what you're solving in the project.

Mike Koenigs [00:16:24]:
Okay.

Dan Sullivan [00:16:25]:
So if it doesn't work, why doesn't it work?

Mike Koenigs [00:16:29]:
Okay. So what— when it doesn't work, in the case of when I'm teaching and training, it's because, um, the people get overwhelmed with the demo. Um, And what I would say is screen fatigue. Um, and, and one problem with AI is you're, you're working on a screen. You're like looking at something, typing a prompt, getting a result, and it can be hard to follow. Um, so, but the, just the nature of this is AI is a skill you have to learn. And it takes a little while for your mind to adjust to mindsets that make you successful. And that is like, for example, is when you are stuck, most people try to solve the problem themselves instead of asking AI to do it for them.

Mike Koenigs [00:17:31]:
Mm-hmm. That's like really common. And then the second issue is the complexity of the example. Where that breaks down is, I may have created a series of steps that you have to copy, paste, follow with your problem. In order to solve a problem, you need to understand a problem and then be able to execute on it. In this particular case, it's following a manual or click on something online and be able to grab it and execute it. AI, isn't just like a chatbot anymore. There's settings that are very important to get the results.

Mike Koenigs [00:18:13]:
So, um, what doesn't work is if someone's attention span— if they lose track, um, when we're working individually,

Dan Sullivan [00:18:26]:
they go into the weeds.

Mike Koenigs [00:18:28]:
Yeah. Uh-huh.

Dan Sullivan [00:18:29]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, as I understand the thing that you have with both live people, because you're doing a live presentation, but also people who are on, you know, they're virtual, they're in it, but you have over 100 people involved in the session.

Mike Koenigs [00:18:50]:
Yeah, 100 now, and I'm building it for more than 2,500. So this is our first date.

Dan Sullivan [00:18:57]:
And this is being recorded, right?

Mike Koenigs [00:19:00]:
Recorded, yeah, broadcast and captured. And then the plan, the opportunity is, assuming this goes well, this will be a substantial year-long contract where we roll it out for 8 other departments or so and potentially thousands of employees. They get weekly training. I'll have AI trainers who are helping with the day-to-day. This particular experience is inspiring to think bigger and get the whole company excited where there's pushback right now with AI about whether or not it's going to destroy humanity and is it going to take my job. You've got a lot of psychological resistance. And my goal is to show them that, um, you know, this is something that can multiply your capabilities, give you superhuman skills, and be a multiplier of your creative creativity and productivity. And you've got nothing to worry about because AIs don't really create.

Mike Koenigs [00:20:15]:
They aren't relationship-focused. They don't have one-on-one relation. You know, it's like There's the deep psychology here, and then there's the skills, which I think are more shallow than the psychology. I over-answered your question, but that's some of what's packing this politically.

Dan Sullivan [00:20:34]:
Well, I think that one of the big things is that you get them really embedded in the context of what you're doing rather than the content of what you're doing. As long as people have an overview that they can retain throughout the, throughout the, you know, throughout the day, the 2 days, the 8 modules, as long as they have a context to go back through. So, Mike, just having what you said to me, you told me what works always with Mike doing it and what sometimes doesn't work.

Mike Koenigs [00:21:09]:
Yeah.

Dan Sullivan [00:21:09]:
Because it's not— the other thing is there's a tremendous diversity between Let's say the top 10 people in the room who are totally with you, and let's say, you know, 10 at the other end who aren't with you.

Mike Koenigs [00:21:23]:
Yeah, and there will be some I've learned recently have never used some of these tools. So they are literally gonna be exposed to it for the first time. And what I'm depending on is that my performance and live demonstrations, and then putting people in groups helps the people who might be straggling, frustrated, overwhelmed. And, um, like, I've gone through the pains of translating, putting subtitles on all my videos, um, because English might not be the first language for some of these people. I have to modulate my speaking pattern, which normally I am a 1,000-mile-an-hour fast speaker. And I speak American English. So I have to slow down probably 15% or 20%, articulate more, stop and explain more. There's things I cannot take into account until I'm in the room and looking at the faces.

Dan Sullivan [00:22:34]:
Yeah. Yeah. So we've got column 1, this always works, and column 2,

Mike Koenigs [00:22:43]:
what

Dan Sullivan [00:22:44]:
doesn't work. Column number 3 is knowing both what works and what doesn't work. What would be new, better, and different about this presentation than any presentation you've ever, you know, a 2-day learning experience? What's going to be new, better, and different about the way you're doing it this time than any previous? Because you're taking a jump for yourself here.

Mike Koenigs [00:23:13]:
Yes. I will full-on say, Dan, this is the hardest I've worked in 30 years on anything. It's been the most complex, difficult because we onboarded many people. We had to synthesize an incredibly complex business, identify the biggest challenges, and turn this into 8 meaningful modules. And there's a lot of pressure. Like any big company, the leaders want it all, and they want it now, and they want it all at once. And then there's the practical, which we've discussed. So now I'm gonna answer your question, new, better, different.

Mike Koenigs [00:24:00]:
What's different about this is every single word, every single module has been customized for this audience. Where in the past, I have been a trainer of generalism for 25 years. Not being specific, not doing something for a company, but I have been teaching and training founder-owner entrepreneurs who think like we do, right? Always in expansive mode. Here I'm going to be dealing with— there could be pushback I'm not aware of. Psychologically is not normal for me that we'll call it employee psychology. embedded psychology, silo psychology. And in a way, that's not my problem. I'm there to inspire and show a bigger future, but I've taken into account all of this stuff.

Mike Koenigs [00:25:04]:
And so the new, better, different is deep, narrow, focused,

Dan Sullivan [00:25:13]:
Specific.

Mike Koenigs [00:25:14]:
Yep, and specific.

Dan Sullivan [00:25:16]:
Are uniquely relevant to—

Mike Koenigs [00:25:20]:
Correct.

Dan Sullivan [00:25:21]:
The company, the market, what they do. Yeah, you know, we had a similar experience just to bring in some strategic coach experience, and that is that we have team programs. So our main focus in coach is really the entrepreneur founder, the person who's in charge. So all the workshops in Strategic Coach are for the entrepreneur themselves.

Mike Koenigs [00:25:46]:
Yep.

Dan Sullivan [00:25:46]:
But then we're bringing in their teams. And this is Shannon, Shannon Waller created this whole program. And we're at it for, you know, we're in 2 decades that we've been doing the team program and they become more and more successful. But when we started, there were problems to be solved. One of the problems, there's actually 3 different kinds of people in the room. And the first one are players. They come, they're the players and they came to play and become better players as a result of it. The other ones are shoppers, especially the ones who travel to come to the live event.

Dan Sullivan [00:26:24]:
And they've heard it's neat to go to this city because it has great restaurants and it has great shops. And so while I'm here, I'm gonna go shopping and I'm gonna bring home something really great for myself or for my wife or for my girlfriend or my boyfriend, whatever it is. Mm-hmm. And That's number 3, actually. Number 1 is players. Number 3 is shoppers. And number 2 is prisoners. Okay.

Dan Sullivan [00:26:53]:
So all the problems you're going to have in the room are the people who are prisoners.

Mike Koenigs [00:26:56]:
Wow.

Dan Sullivan [00:26:57]:
Okay. Okay. And their future life is at stake here and they feel imprisoned. They don't want to come. They don't want to do it. They don't want to do it. And so you have to realize that you can't make the prisoners into players, but you can keep the players from holding the room hostage. You can keep the prisoners from holding the room hostage.

Mike Koenigs [00:27:22]:
Okay.

Dan Sullivan [00:27:24]:
Yeah. And that's always a problem. I mean, every one of my coach workshops, you know, even with really successful entrepreneurs who've been in the program for a long time, there's the people who are total players. They just come to play, they're gonna be, they wanna work with you, they wanna get the benefit of everything you've put together. They want to really get the sense of your understanding of AI, that if they grasp it, they're gonna be a lot better player. And the, no, it's 1, 2, 3. It's players, shoppers, and prisoners.

Mike Koenigs [00:28:07]:
Okay.

Dan Sullivan [00:28:07]:
Okay, 'cause the prisoners are the problem. The prisoners. So how do you get the prisoners in such a way that they're open to something and that they're willing to change their mind to become a player? They're not really gonna grasp what you're doing, but they're gonna change their attitude. And I'm looking at the owners of this company from that standpoint. They're having problems with the prisoners. They're having problems. And so I always make it great for the players. In other words, it's always great, but I wanna neutralize the prisoners.

Dan Sullivan [00:28:45]:
And the shoppers are gonna do what the shoppers do. They've learned how to balance showing enough progress that they are continued to be employed.

Mike Koenigs [00:28:55]:
Mm-hmm.

Dan Sullivan [00:28:55]:
But on the other hand, they're really there for a good time. They wanna get together with people. They wanna have nice lunches. lunches, dinners, they wanted to take care of it. So I don't know if that's useful for you.

Mike Koenigs [00:29:09]:
Oh, it's immensely. Yeah, this is really good.

Dan Sullivan [00:29:11]:
Yeah.

Mike Koenigs [00:29:12]:
And so in your experience, yeah. So

Dan Sullivan [00:29:16]:
I'm thinking about it from Mike's standpoint here. I'm not thinking, because I don't know the people you're dealing with. I only know the person that I'm engaging with.

Mike Koenigs [00:29:25]:
Yeah.

Dan Sullivan [00:29:25]:
And that is that you want to get the players to double their commitment, their commitment in the room? How do you get them to, so that they become teachers? So you wanna, you're a coach, you're the overall program coach, but you wanna get the players in the room to become coaches in their breakout groups and when they're dealing with it, they're really excited about this.

Mike Koenigs [00:29:53]:
Mm-hmm.

Dan Sullivan [00:29:56]:
Yeah. Is that useful what I just said?

Mike Koenigs [00:29:58]:
Immensely.

Dan Sullivan [00:29:59]:
Yeah.

Mike Koenigs [00:29:59]:
So if I can inspire, and part of that is what I hope the group—

Dan Sullivan [00:30:05]:
And you can probably find out who the players are before you go.

Mike Koenigs [00:30:10]:
Well, my— I

Dan Sullivan [00:30:13]:
mean, you can talk to the people who are writing the check here. Yeah. And you can say, now, who are the Who are the players here that I can depend on? Because the players will, right from the beginning, be part of your team.

Mike Koenigs [00:30:33]:
Yes. So creating alignment is so important. And I have, you know, the I have one thing. This is just a purely physical, mental challenge. So I fly in, I've got 2 days to recover, then an 8-hour time difference, practice on, let's say, Monday, and dinner with the players, the main people. And then right away, Tuesday, Wednesday is the show. Tuesday night is dinner with everyone. So, I'm gonna manage fatigue, transitioning, and then absorbing who the players, who the shoppers, who the prisoners are, and being able to ask those questions and remember them, right? And some of this, I just have to depend on Pure adrenaline and guts and practice.

Mike Koenigs [00:31:49]:
So psychologically, what are your—

Dan Sullivan [00:31:52]:
Story of your life.

Mike Koenigs [00:31:54]:
Yeah, yeah. No, that's, uh, you're right, Dan. That's 40 years of, uh, I should have learned it by now.

Dan Sullivan [00:32:01]:
Um, no, no, it's adrenaline. It's adrenaline.

Mike Koenigs [00:32:05]:
Yeah.

Dan Sullivan [00:32:09]:
First of all, this is a really big deal. I mean, I think that this is a— let me just ask you a few questions. What if this is a home run? You know, like the— this is, first of all, you know, at the end of 2 days that it's been a total home run, but you're getting the feedback from the people who count that this was a total home run.

Mike Koenigs [00:32:34]:
Yes.

Dan Sullivan [00:32:34]:
So what does it look like if it's a total home run?

Mike Koenigs [00:32:37]:
Yeah, if it's a total home run— Because

Dan Sullivan [00:32:39]:
it's a home run for you as Mike Koenigs and your future role in doing this sort of thing, but it's a home run for the— they wanted a difference to be made. They want to feel totally different about this afterwards. So if you can combine both a home run for you and a home run for them, what's it look like?

Mike Koenigs [00:33:00]:
Well, first, I'll give you a few. One of them is, Dan, I have invented IP that I never would have fathomed 60 or 90 days ago. I've invented products that when implemented in this organization can completely change the way marketing and sales are done. And I productized them. I mean, it's like I've got the pitch videos, the designs and prototypes. to show. And that mindset and even the IP I've designed could be adapted into many corporations. And there's also in the world of AI right now, there's so much noise, so much confusion and overwhelm.

Mike Koenigs [00:33:57]:
And suddenly everyone's an AI expert and most of it's complete garbage, unusable junk. So this is a differentiator. And I'm moving from being a guy who works only with founder-owner entrepreneurs to corporate, which I may or may not like. You know, I don't know for sure.

Dan Sullivan [00:34:19]:
Yeah.

Mike Koenigs [00:34:20]:
But I'd say just developmentally, that's one of the home runs. The second is for the we. This is a huge contract opportunity that could keep us, me, my people busy for years. And it could be adapted for many markets. You know, whether I stay in this particular sector or go outside. Yeah. And then, um, third, it, it is the, the highest paid speaking gig I've ever done by a long shot. It raised the bar on my value considerably.

Dan Sullivan [00:35:14]:
Yeah, yeah, the largest check. That's—

Mike Koenigs [00:35:15]:
yeah, yeah. So it's, it's, I, you know, kind of like a I would say a celebrity level. Yeah.

Dan Sullivan [00:35:25]:
Yeah.

Mike Koenigs [00:35:26]:
Now the amount of labor I put into this,

Dan Sullivan [00:35:29]:
yeah,

Mike Koenigs [00:35:30]:
that doesn't match with the— if you called it just a speaking gig, because there's been immense amount of work that went into it. But yes.

Dan Sullivan [00:35:38]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, it'll be a breakthrough for their— it'll be a breakthrough for them. that they have this new capability, but it'll be a multiplier breakthrough for you because you become much more selective. You've got a 2-day— I mean, this is a monstrous process that you're creating. And I mean, you're testing it on a huge company, but there are entrepreneurs who have 1/10 the size of company that would be equally bigger paydays. It would be equally bit of paydays. Plus you will have had the proven product and your capability level.

Dan Sullivan [00:36:21]:
You're doing the 4 C's right now. You're committed. You're going through a period of courage. Commitment times courage equals capability. Capability produces higher confidence. Mm-hmm. And then you take on a different level. Everything after '26, '27, because you're starting this right now in '26, but then it goes to '27.

Dan Sullivan [00:36:51]:
But once you have this experience proven and you're feeling that the whole future looks totally different as a result of this successful win. Yeah. Can we take a minute? I want to send you an example of what we do with it so that you can see that.

Mike Koenigs [00:37:14]:
Yeah, because that's what I wanted to get to, a little integration.

Dan Sullivan [00:37:17]:
Get a file. I have to get a file.

Mike Koenigs [00:37:19]:
No problem. Okay, Dan, so this is the file you just sent. Tell me what we're looking at.

Dan Sullivan [00:37:26]:
Yeah, well, anyway, I'll tell you. This is part of the teamwork that I have inside Coach that we've developed over the last 12 years. And what it is that when I was 70, I'm 82 right now, I said a neat project would be for me specifically, but for the company Strategic Coach, is that we create a new tool-based book every quarter. So I started this 12 years ago. And so as I'm doing this, I'm on book 48. But what's worked is that we completed 47 books in 47 quarters. And this went from a lone activity to a great book production team. And who I'm sending this to is my 20-year editor, Carrie Morrison, and her brother, who's the copywriter.

Dan Sullivan [00:38:28]:
And what we do is that I create an outline for a new book, and then I'm interviewed by Shannon Waller and Amish MacDonald, who's my cartoonist. And then I also have Alex Varley, who is a tech guy from the UK, and he is really smart about everything. And so we've completed 47 books in 47 quarters. We're gone from a loan activity to great book production team. The thinking tools that I create for the program are becoming quarterly books. The quarterly books are becoming Hay House major marketing books. And Carrie and Adam, this is the brother, the sister-brother team, are producing great finished books. That's what's working.

Dan Sullivan [00:39:22]:
Mm-hmm. But what's happening now, because I'm using AI as part of my writing process, what's not working is I'm not using AI to using fast filters in a consistent way. So it's kind of consistent values. And the other thing is I'm not sending the fast filters to Kerry before the Shannon interview. Okay, so she's the editor. I'm not creating all best results to get the entire context of the book. I'm not having Carrie's questions before the Shannon interview. I'm not creating scorecard continually as the book is being graded.

Dan Sullivan [00:40:04]:
So at the back of every book is a scorecard where people can identify their mindsets, the mindsets they have. So knowing what worked, what didn't work, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna finish the fast filters one week before the interview. and I send the fast filter to Carrie. Carrie sends questions to answer before the interview, and we have 5 uniquely different new success criteria. So she's not getting enough information. She and her brother are not getting enough information to create the complete thing. Mm-hmm.

Dan Sullivan [00:40:41]:
And we're waiting till the very end to use the scorecard to develop. So we're gonna— I'm gonna develop the scorecard and keep Carrie in the loop on the scorecard. the mindset scorecard eventually, and I will use AI as support, but not as the driver of copy.

Mike Koenigs [00:40:58]:
Yes.

Dan Sullivan [00:40:59]:
Okay. I sent this to her and she says, this is fantastic. And this was done on the 11th. Today's the 15th. And so I went back to 2 Fast Filters and I completely created massive amounts of other copy for her so that she and Adam could could actually do it. They love the extra copy I'm doing. And last night I sent a fast filter, which is the outline for the interview. I sent it last night a week ahead so that she has it a week ahead, and already she's sending me back questions about the fast filter.

Dan Sullivan [00:41:39]:
So that's it. Okay. And this could be about anything. These are complex, you know, everything's a complexity problem. The neat thing about the world, I think, that we're living in, complexity problems are everybody's problem.

Mike Koenigs [00:41:53]:
Yes.

Dan Sullivan [00:41:54]:
Yeah, there is no other problem except complexity problems. Okay. And people are experiencing a lot of failure because they haven't grasped the complexity.

Mike Koenigs [00:42:04]:
Yeah.

Dan Sullivan [00:42:05]:
They haven't simplified what the project is all about. So I asked you a whole series of questions at the beginning of this podcasts, and you could be able to go now, I could give you this form and you would be able to say what worked, what didn't work, and do better and different. And you would have this right after our podcast here.

Mike Koenigs [00:42:28]:
Right.

Dan Sullivan [00:42:30]:
Now, here's my suggestion, that you don't give them AI upfront to think with. You give them a Paper form to work, 'cause paper they know.

Mike Koenigs [00:42:42]:
Yeah.

Dan Sullivan [00:42:42]:
Okay. And you have each of them fill out this form so you can create a little app for them and they can write up. And this becomes the basis for them to know what's working, what's not working, and what they want as new, better, and different. And they have this experience within the first half hour or first hour of the first module.

Mike Koenigs [00:43:03]:
Yeah. The first exercise, I don't have a physical form, but there is no AI in the first exercise.

Dan Sullivan [00:43:14]:
But I would give them this form. You have my permission to use it.

Mike Koenigs [00:43:18]:
Okay.

Dan Sullivan [00:43:20]:
Yeah. And you could actually present one for yourself. You say, so this is a big project for me. I was invited in by your company, and this is what always works for me. This is what doesn't work for me in this type. And tell them upfront what doesn't work. And then say, so we're gonna be together creating a brand new thing over the next 2 days. And this is very exciting.

Dan Sullivan [00:43:50]:
Mm-hmm. Okay? So you're giving them what your intent is right upfront, and you're testing the form on themselves, and then you take them through and let them create their own where they are with the subject matter, where they are with the 2-day experience. Does that make sense?

Mike Koenigs [00:44:10]:
Yeah.

Dan Sullivan [00:44:11]:
Yeah. See what happens, and I'll use the example when you came to the summit last February, the summit in La Jolla. Okay. You did the afternoon before the main session.

Mike Koenigs [00:44:26]:
Yes.

Dan Sullivan [00:44:27]:
People were filled up after about 45 minutes and they had no room for anything else. And they hadn't even done their own thinking yet. You got to get them thinking about their thinking as fast as possible about where they are and why they're there and what they hope to achieve.

Mike Koenigs [00:44:44]:
Yeah. So, and— I

Dan Sullivan [00:44:49]:
don't know if that— I don't know if that— and, and It's my gift to you that you can use this. Thank you. Yeah.

Mike Koenigs [00:44:59]:
I appreciate it.

Dan Sullivan [00:45:00]:
If you want.

Mike Koenigs [00:45:01]:
Okay. Yeah.

Dan Sullivan [00:45:03]:
But I think you should do it for yourself.

Mike Koenigs [00:45:05]:
Right. And in the context of this group, when we say what's worked, what didn't, and 5 improvements, Do I contextualize this in where are you, um, with AI? What's working? What's not working?

Dan Sullivan [00:45:28]:
Yeah.

Mike Koenigs [00:45:28]:
And what are 5 improvements?

Dan Sullivan [00:45:32]:
Yeah, see, once they've got what's working and what's not working, they can start creating the future. Now, when do you go? When do you go?

Mike Koenigs [00:45:44]:
I leave on Friday and I'm on Basically a week from today is the first.

Dan Sullivan [00:45:51]:
You got lots of time. So could you get 5 players to fill this out and, uh, and just do it by internet that you can get 5 players?

Mike Koenigs [00:46:03]:
Um, that's a really good question. And, um, I have to

Dan Sullivan [00:46:09]:
be— yeah, it could be the people who hired you. What I want you to do is just have the experience of working with this company before the session. Yeah. Your confidence will go through the roof if you get 5 people to actually do this exercise. And you're going to learn a lot. I mean, these are the key. Yeah. But it doesn't have to be the, you know, the head people.

Dan Sullivan [00:46:36]:
It can just be the 5 people who are going to be there, you'd like to test them out.

Mike Koenigs [00:46:44]:
That's a great idea. Let me absorb this because I, I'd have to get it, get it over to them and work on it in the next 48 hours and finish it up. So, um, but I, I love this idea.

Dan Sullivan [00:47:00]:
It's just a FileMaker tool. Yeah, in FileMaker. We can send you the FileMaker tool if you do, but you could reproduce this. I mean, I'm sure you could reproduce this, the form, and then you can send me your app back and I've got myself an app.

Mike Koenigs [00:47:16]:
Oh yeah, that's a good idea. I've been so focused on this for so long, I've had Dan apps in my head for a while. So I've—

Dan Sullivan [00:47:26]:
This would be a good test case. This would be a good test case. See, the problem isn't what they know or what they don't know. It's how they feel about where they are.

Mike Koenigs [00:47:35]:
Yeah.

Dan Sullivan [00:47:36]:
It's all emotion. It's all emotion. Okay. This gives them clarity about their thinking.

Mike Koenigs [00:47:43]:
Yes. Yeah. If I can insert this during the preframe and

Dan Sullivan [00:47:56]:
And you can even make a joke. Hey, we're going to have you do something on paper before we get to it. It'll be digital. I mean, they all have their iPads or they— Is that what they come equipped with?

Mike Koenigs [00:48:08]:
They're going to have computers. I'm having everyone, because if they're doing AI, they have to have a real computer. Yep.

Dan Sullivan [00:48:14]:
Okay. Okay. So you would just have this and this is a writable PDF basically. Yeah.

Mike Koenigs [00:48:23]:
Yeah. Good. All right.

Dan Sullivan [00:48:26]:
See, it isn't— basically what we want to take care of during— for the 2-day session is how Mike's going to be during the session. If Mike is fine throughout the session, it's going to be a great presentation.

Mike Koenigs [00:48:49]:
Yes, very true. Okay, so let's—

Dan Sullivan [00:48:55]:
We're still interrupted, right? We're still interrupted.

Mike Koenigs [00:49:00]:
Meaning?

Dan Sullivan [00:49:01]:
We paused. We paused.

Mike Koenigs [00:49:03]:
Yeah, we can pause or we can put the wrap on this and I can set it up and say, Well, here we are, Dan. We're at the end, and I would like your version of what has happened here. What's your summary?

Dan Sullivan [00:49:25]:
And do you want to show the form or not show the form to them?

Mike Koenigs [00:49:29]:
The— what I did the whole time. Do you want me to put it up again?

Dan Sullivan [00:49:33]:
Oh, we've done it already.

Mike Koenigs [00:49:35]:
Yeah, yeah, we did. We did the whole thing, and that was all of the segment right there.

Dan Sullivan [00:49:41]:
Okay. All right. So good.

Mike Koenigs [00:49:44]:
So let's— yeah, let's—

Dan Sullivan [00:49:46]:
yeah.

Mike Koenigs [00:49:47]:
How do we wrap this up, Dan? Like, what's your final summary and recommendation of what happened here?

Dan Sullivan [00:49:54]:
Well, my take on it is based on my own coaching experience over half a century is that the, you know, that is very interesting in the Middle of the 20th century where I was present, there was a very famous book on hospitality, how to put on great parties, how to put on great events. And the woman's name was Emily Post, and she was the expert on any kind of social event that you're putting on, weddings, any kind of social, bar mitzvahs, whatever. you wanna have. And so it's about 500 pages, tremendous amount of complexity. And she says, now, if you can't remember anything that's written in the first 500 pages, there's just one rule. If you wanna have a great party, make sure the host has a good time. So you're the host for 2 days.

Mike Koenigs [00:50:57]:
Yep.

Dan Sullivan [00:50:58]:
Totally new material, totally new situation. The question is, how does Mike have a good time for 2 days?

Mike Koenigs [00:51:08]:
Wow. Yeah.

Dan Sullivan [00:51:09]:
And so what it does, it takes advantage of 40 years experience where I won, I won, I won, I won. But when I didn't win, I lost because of this reason, this reason, this reason, this reason. And so what I do is I say, this is what I This is what works. This is what doesn't work. And this is going to be an entirely new situation, and it's going to be new, better, and different. That's where I am with this. I want you to be with it. So we're going to have a little introduction so you get to say exactly who you are, where you are, and talk it through before we get into the actual AI portion of this.

Dan Sullivan [00:51:53]:
I just want everybody in the room to be totally confident and comfortable and feeling capable as a result of doing a little exercise.

Mike Koenigs [00:52:02]:
Okay.

Dan Sullivan [00:52:05]:
And your response is?

Mike Koenigs [00:52:10]:
Oh, well, my neuroplasticity is at work and where I go is, this is entirely possible. I have to reshape the story I've been telling myself. I practiced this whole event thousands of times in my dreams and my waking mind. This has been the most challenging project that I can remember in decades that I've engaged in. Um, and I've questioned so much about my past to get here. And so I am integrating right now the most effective way to use this, make it meaningful, and pace and time appropriately, and then making it useful to this audience too. And I have more unanswered questions because I've never presented to this group nor in this specific country. They're, um, uh, it's culturally different.

Mike Koenigs [00:53:26]:
They're not Americans. Um, so that's what I'm, I'm always playing back is, is what—

Dan Sullivan [00:53:33]:
And they're not entrepreneurs.

Mike Koenigs [00:53:35]:
No, the founders are and some of the leaders are, the core players, but all of that. So how's it gonna land? How's it gonna land? And that last thing you said was really useful, which is just make sure me, the host, is having a great time. And, you know, and I'm just gonna be me, which is I'm an American speaking American English and teaching entrepreneurial concepts and ideas that are designed to inspire and motivate And remember to reduce the complexity. So I'm still going to go in and do what we call slide murdering and make certain that this is experientially great for them. And I also have to remember that the horse that drives this cart which is the client wanting everything. And I talked to them yesterday. I said, part of the experience is gonna be art. I've built a curriculum, but you have to trust me to deliver it based on what they're capable of absorbing.

Mike Koenigs [00:54:50]:
And we won't know that until we're together. And both of us are scared. And we all acknowledge that together.

Dan Sullivan [00:54:58]:
Yeah.

Mike Koenigs [00:55:00]:
I think the best I can do is be honest and pace it in such a way. And at this stage, I'm feeling more overprepared than underprepared, but I'll know when I'm there. Yeah.

Dan Sullivan [00:55:21]:
Yeah. Yeah. See, my sense is that You've already nailed the content for the 2 days. It's a done deal. The only thing is that you're having such a good time that you can be focusing on, are they having a good time?

Mike Koenigs [00:55:36]:
Yeah.

Dan Sullivan [00:55:36]:
You know, like that. Then the pacing and the whole thing will really depend because at the end of the day, AI is an interesting thing. Once you get across the hump that AI is scary and that AI is a great, great new capability for the rest of my working life, you've won. You've won. It's a mindset project. It's not a content project.

Mike Koenigs [00:56:09]:
Now, this has been super useful, intellectually intense, and thank you, Dan.

Dan Sullivan [00:56:18]:
Can you just convert this over I mean, you have the ability just to take the model that I showed you and you can do anything you want with it. It's— if you misuse it, the U.S. Patent Bureau will tell you something.

Mike Koenigs [00:56:34]:
I always ask permission. You know me. I'm like— and I always give credit where credit's due.

Dan Sullivan [00:56:41]:
I know that. Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Koenigs [00:56:44]:
You got it, Dan. Good job.