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The Effective Lawyer teaches ambitious trial lawyers how to grow their skills and create a prosperous law firm. Using lessons learned by accomplished attorneys from around the country, we discuss lessons learned through their trials and tribulations. Our discussions cover a vast range of topics sought out by attorneys looking for advice, from depositions to how to market your law firm.
The show is hosted by Jack Zinda, Founder and Senior Trial Lawyer at Zinda Law Group. In less than 15 years, Jack and his team have grown Zinda Law Group from 3 attorneys to over 30, spanning several states and handling a variety of personal injury cases from gas explosions to truck accidents.
Jack and his guests share their knowledge and skills that they’ve acquired through the process of building one of the most successful plaintiff’s law firms in the country.
In each show we cover a new topic that an ambitious attorney would want to better understand, while providing practical skills to improve their legal practice.
For more information, visit https://www.zdfirm.com/the-effective-lawyer
Everyone. Jack Zinda here. Thanks for tuning to another episode of the Effective Lure podcast. Today, I'm talking to one of the best trawlers in the country, one of my good friends, Cole Gum. Cole's a partner here at Zindalar Group.
Jack Zinda:Him and I have worked on dozens of catastrophic injury and awful death cases, everything from gas explosions to car wrecks to workplace injuries. He's gonna share some of the things he's picked up over the years and some of the tactics that he's used to be successful. Hope you enjoy our conversation. Thanks. Cole, what's up, man?
Jack Zinda:So good to see you.
Cole Gumm:You too.
Jack Zinda:How are you doing? I am doing incredible.
Cole Gumm:Awesome. It's a great weather, and it's a good day.
Jack Zinda:Yeah. It's it really is. I I tell you know, people complain about the heat here, but I think Austin's such a beautiful city. It's worth putting up with.
Cole Gumm:It's worth its weight in gold.
Jack Zinda:It is. So, man, how long have we worked together?
Cole Gumm:I think nine, maybe going on ten years.
Jack Zinda:Yeah. It's it's been a while, and I can't even remember what we talked about in your interview. But why don't
Cole Gumm:you bring the listeners back to what got you interested in practicing law? Yeah, so I've always had a mission, or a passion for helping people and wanting to advance that mission of helping people. And, you know, I decided I wanted to go to law school near the end of my undergraduate career and ended up going to Baylor, which I loved. And I fell in love with litigation at Baylor. And when I got out, I started working at a small personal injury firm and really just became attached to the subject matter, that the rewarding qualities that it gave me as an attorney.
Cole Gumm:And so I got into it and fell in love with it and run-in since.
Jack Zinda:And your wife owns a bailout squalor. Yeah. And she also works at the firm as well, which is an interesting side note.
Cole Gumm:Yeah. And it's it's great, though. We we have it's it's fun. We get to do what we love, you know, personally and professionally together. It's pretty cool.
Jack Zinda:Yeah. That's awesome. How how's it been try you tried a case together recently. How was that?
Cole Gumm:It was awesome. It was a great experience. This was our third trial together where she sat there with me last summer during the first two. And this one, just having you there, it was a lot of fun. It was my first trial in Colorado.
Cole Gumm:So that was one dynamic of, you know, flying out there and doing it, you know, in a different state. But, know, it was it's really cool that we can enjoy that together and it was fun doing that.
Jack Zinda:And you're one of the attorneys at our firm that works on some of the most complicated cases. You know, sometimes you've had situations where you found source of recovery in one thought or found liability that didn't appear obvious. Can you think of any cases you've worked on where, you know, at first it looked like a tough case either because there weren't enough money available or man, it's gonna be tough to prove liability.
Cole Gumm:Yeah, I, you know, I think I I go back to that dog case dog bite case that we handled out of Longview. Yeah. When I first started and it was probably the biggest case at that time that I'd ever worked on, and it was something that, you know, from the outside, looked like a difficult case because we weren't sure as to whether there would be source of recovery on dog owner, whether the apartment complex can be held liable. And ultimately, were able to, you know, we found a bunch of good evidence that the apartment complex knew about the dog and knew that the dangerous propensities. We were able to uncover that.
Cole Gumm:We found the source of recovery and the case was a very big success. Let's talk about
Jack Zinda:that case for a second. So it was an interesting case. I remember this. So this was a case where this wonderful woman was mauled by, was it one, two, there's a one dog and she lived in a nice apartment complex in Longview where I'm from. And I think she was walking back from, she was going into her apartment and this dog just jumped on her and kind of pushed through the door, right?
Cole Gumm:Yeah, so there was a common kind of community area behind all of the apartments that was in enclosed, it was fenced in and she was walking through that area and this other young girl who owned this dog just opened the door, let the dog out. Dog just ran and attacked the client and tackled her. I mean, it was bad, but it could have been worse. Mean, it was a vicious attack.
Jack Zinda:And it was a situation where the dog owner actually did not have much insurance, if any at all. And so we obviously had a case against the dog owner's insurance policy, but he was trying to figure out, okay, how else can we help this client? And I think they may have talked to three or four other firms that turned down the case and you did an excellent job in figuring out the next steps. Walk me through that investigation and how you made that case work?
Cole Gumm:Absolutely. So I think one of the biggest things that we made a decision on early on, and I remember talking to you about it was the dog owner offered the policy of limits right away. And it was whether do we accept that and just go after the apartment complex and we kept the dog owner in case. And I think that drove value from the apartment complex. Just knowing that if we did go to trial, she was a very bad client for for the defense.
Cole Gumm:And so we wanted that to be shown at trial. So that was one thing of just knowing that the apartment complex would would end up paying by keeping her in. And then, know, as we got through discovery, I remember we we filed a motion to compel and we're trying to compel any notes or anything that the apartment complex would have had to show the their knowledge of the dangerous dog. And I remember we we filed the motion to compel and then they ultimately submitted before hearing a lot of handwritten notes from employees who had been chased, attacked, cornered by that dog. And we were able to use that obviously to show their their knowledge of of the dangerous dog.
Jack Zinda:Yeah. I remember I remember we there was this specific incident reports where the they were fighting over who had to go take care of that place in the apartment because they've been attacked so many times from it.
Cole Gumm:Yeah. Remember the one of the statements that was written out by one of employees was a a gentleman, a maintenance man who had went in to to do some work, and the dog chased him into an empty unit. Ended up having to hide in a closet basically and until they get rid of the dog. And so we we had probably three or
Jack Zinda:four of those types of statements in that went a long way. Well, in what decision process did you make to know that you should push the case further than just taking that initial policy? What made what was the trigger? Say, hey. We need to dig a little deeper here.
Jack Zinda:So what else is available?
Cole Gumm:You know, think something that we always talk about, especially something you you preach is, you know, I think looking at your damages and what is the case worth? If if you had unlimited source of recovery, you could go and spend as much money on the case, what is it worth? And in this case, I mean, the dog attacked her face, she had severe disfigurement to her face. And so knowing that allowed us to really just put the time and effort into, you know, the amount of money from the dog owner wasn't going to be enough. There was there was an upside and a benefit to taking maybe a little bit of risk and spending some money to keep going.
Cole Gumm:And we were lucky we did because we dug in and found some real good stuff.
Jack Zinda:Yeah, and I think that's a great lesson. So first, making sure that you are searching for every source of recovery in a case. And I know something that I like to do is make a list of anybody who's attached to the potential defendant and then figure out eliminate them as a potential cause of the incident. Yep. Right?
Jack Zinda:And in this case, the apartment complex had a lot of notice about this dog attacking people. The other thing you did a great job in that was taking the dog owner's deposition even though they can conceded on liability. And she, like you said, was a terrible witness. She was extremely racist in her deposition, which was really powerful showing, and she had zero remorse whatsoever for what happened to our poor client. In fact, made it sound like she thought she deserved it.
Cole Gumm:That's I was just gonna say that's kind of on top of that. It wasn't even that she wasn't sorry. It was that my client had it coming for some reason or another. Don't know why.
Jack Zinda:I think that brings up an important tip. It's like you wanna tell the story from the perspective of what did the person that caused the harm learn from it and how is this going to make things better? If they don't have your remorse, that can really add a lot of damages at the end of the case.
Cole Gumm:Absolutely. We always talk about that of, you know, sometimes the best answer in a deposition is them fighting you on something that is so just basic of, you know, if someone runs a red light that you say, you know, you you agree that I want you to stop at a red light. If they say no to that, that's a pretty powerful, bit of advice or bit as a fact that you can use against them that they just never can accept responsibility. And you know, another thing I love about working with
Jack Zinda:you is you were fearless to take cases at trial. When did you know, like you would enjoy taking the case trial? When did that bug hit you? Did it take a while or was it from the beginning?
Cole Gumm:Yeah, would say, you know, obviously there's apprehension and nerves going into any trial, no matter how many times you've done it. And so obviously there's more at the beginning when you've never really done it. But, you know, I would say Baylor really helped, you know, get you ready to be in the courtroom. And like I said, that's what made me fall in love with litigation. So I knew I could do it.
Cole Gumm:And then going out and doing it, you know, just gives you more confidence and you feel, you know, much more comfortable and you learn from every case.
Jack Zinda:Well, but there's no Baylor has a really intense trial program. That's where Cole went there. I went there as well. So did Cole's wife. Mhmm.
Jack Zinda:I don't think you all overlapped at all too. And it's the professors when you're doing a mock trial and they're the judge. If you get a mistake, like if they'll be in the audience, listen to you do an opening statement, if you object wrong, they'll dock you a letter grade or throw you out of class. And I've never had a judge nearly as strict as as that.
Cole Gumm:I can't agree more in terms of you know, I look back on we we do something called big trial where you you basically practice a case and and go through trial. It's usually two to three days. And I just remember I don't think I've ever been as nervous as I was, you know, in that setting versus a real courtroom, and a lot of that comes from going through all of that and deal with it.
Jack Zinda:I remember there was a there was a woman in my class and she was like top three, top four in the the class and we're doing a mock trial and we're on opposing sides and she never got anything wrong. She was always really organized, did a great job and she objected but didn't stand. And the professor said, you know, I'll use a pseudonym Ms. Smith. You need to object.
Jack Zinda:Stand when you object. Okay? Next time comes up. And this is someone who never makes a mistake in class, always gets, like, perfect grades. Forgets to do it again.
Jack Zinda:And she says, miss Smith, if you do not stand up while objecting, I'm gonna dock you a letter grade. And this this woman's, like, third in our class. Sure enough, the third time around, she doesn't stand. Yeah. I was like, oh.
Jack Zinda:And they did it to any doctor of the livers.
Cole Gumm:Just gonna say, and and they would follow through with whatever the threat was, and it made you realize that I'd better do what I'm being asked of me what's being asked me or, you know, improve on what I'm being, you know, critiqued on. So very powerful.
Jack Zinda:I know. I remember that and also, like, objecting the right way and taking that positions. I think you bring up a good point is if you're a new litigator, get yourself out there and get in the courtroom, try things. Don't you know, some of it is just things in life in general. If you don't go out there and do it, you're not gonna have the confidence to do it again, and it becomes more of a game more fun what you've done a couple times.
Cole Gumm:Absolutely. And I think looking at just who, you know, our most successful lawyers at our firm are generally, you know, people who early on are ready to, you know, dive in and do whatever's asked of them, teaming up with a more experienced lawyer, learning kind of the ropes. Remember when I started, you know, we would have a morning huddle, I remember, and you were my direct supervisor, and that was just such a great experience of seeing how it should be done, how to
Jack Zinda:do it
Cole Gumm:right. And now I hope to pass that on to the people that you know are on your end.
Jack Zinda:When when you're getting ready for trial, what are when you really start getting ready for go time? It's like I know we're prepping throughout the whole case, but when you say, now it's time to get down and really focus on this case and let's get this ready to go.
Cole Gumm:You know, I think we always preach ninety to one hundred and twenty days. We have we have checklists starting at one hundred and twenty days, and a lot of that is obviously before discoveries ended. And and so it allows you makes you put it makes sure all of your are in a row. So you're really prepping for, you know, eight, five months out of what will a trial look like? What evidence do I still need to get?
Cole Gumm:What do I need to compel? And and so it starts there. And then obviously, as you get closer, there are you know, it's much more regimen and how much time you're spending on on prepping. But, yeah, ninety to a hundred and twenty days is when you're you should be full blown. I'm I'm getting ready for trial.
Jack Zinda:What about putting together your opening statement board? Do you have any tips for that? Do you like to practice it a lot? Do you like to kind of weigh closer to Toronto? And I've heard it work both ways.
Jack Zinda:In fact, I found when I try to get that ready too soon, it doesn't feel right when it gets close to trucks. Things have changed so much, and you kinda get a feel for the case.
Cole Gumm:I I agree. So generally, like, for Vordeaux Vordeaux outlines, I'm usually doing those maybe a week in advance of of trial, and that's because at that point I've had a lot of discussions with the other side. I know what their issues are, and I know the things that I need to question the potential jurors about. And so that's it's usually about a week that I'm, you know, out that I'm starting to work on on those outlines. And when it comes to opening or closing arguments, those outlines are always changing even through trial as you're seeing the evidence come in or you're seeing the reaction from the jury to certain facts and just always wanting to to make sure you're advocating in the best possible way.
Jack Zinda:And was it tough developing your own style? I know there's all sorts of advocacy books. You know, there's David Ball. There's all sorts of books out there. Here's how you should give an opening statement, and here's how you should do poor dire.
Jack Zinda:How did you develop your style, or did you say, I'm gonna just go after the same way this person does it?
Cole Gumm:Well, I think it's a little bit of both in terms of you know the those outlines or kind of the templates that you can go and find anywhere. Those are very helpful. They obviously work and there's reasons why they are so popular, But then being able to adopt that in a way where by you following that outline, you're still being yourself. I think I truly believe that jury jurors will will understand if someone is being themselves and being candid versus not. And so I think a lot of it is telling your story in a way that you believe it with conviction and and adopting your own style, but following a lot of, you know, what what you can find out there from other sources.
Cole Gumm:Well, to me,
Jack Zinda:it's always amazing how small a courtroom feels when you're in it. You see it on TV, in your head, you think this giant place, really, it's like a a conference room. Absolutely. And you're from here to there to the jurors. And if you act like you're putting on a show or play, it becomes so stilt and becomes so unattentic inauthentic.
Jack Zinda:And I've seen some great trawlers get big results that aren't very articulate. You know, the jury just believes in what they're saying and knows they're being credible.
Cole Gumm:Yep. And for example, in in my opening and or closing, a lot of times I find myself reading my the outline of of what I put together because I know that I've spent so much time on making sure that every word in there is right and everything that I wanna say is in there that at that point, I know that even if I'm reading it and I'm not, you know, engaged with the jury so much, I know that I'm they can tell that what I've written down here is my it's my own words and my own take on the case. And luckily that, you know, I I I found that jurors will follow that.
Jack Zinda:Yeah. I think keeping yourself through is so critical. And whatever your style is, you know, that's the way you should try your case and don't try to be someone else. You wanna be what feels authentic to you so you can connect with people on a human level. You know, Mark Lanier, I went to hear him speak a few years ago, and he had a good saying, which I really had an impression on me.
Jack Zinda:He said, know, our job is to tell the truth. And when I started thinking about that, it really made my approach to practicing law and being a trawler seem a lot easier. Like, we're not trying to hide stuff, we're trying to explain what happened from our client's point of view and why we have a righteous case. Like it was the case selection, right? If you don't have a good case selection, you can't do that.
Jack Zinda:But if you do, you really need to pull out what the client story is. And you've done a great job in building a great relationship with your clients. They all love you and you're getting good rapport and they listen to you. What tips do you have for building that rapport with clients?
Cole Gumm:It starts, I think, from the first conversation. I always want to, you know, I always start by introducing myself, telling them who I am, how long I've been here, what types of cases I work on, how their case fits into what I do and how much experience I have and really developing that rapport, like you said, right from the very beginning. And I think the more genuine you are, the more candid you are, the more you care. And I think, you know, good trial lawyers, they absolutely care about their clients. And so I think, like we talked about, I mean, a client can tell if you're being genuine or not.
Cole Gumm:I truly believe in everything that I do. So there's nothing fake about, you know, developing that rapport.
Jack Zinda:And I think time is really important, especially if you have a client that suffered really catastrophic injuries, cannot substitute time. Every time I've gone to a client's house, haven't rereaded it. And you really get a sense of what their real story, what their real life is, what they've been through. But if they were a wrongful death case going through photo albums, meeting neighbors, seeing what they have on the walls and also helps you got a real stoic client that will not has a hard time telling their story. You can tell it through other people.
Jack Zinda:I cannot tell you how many times we've had cases where the client says, I don't have anyone who could be a non economic damages witness. And then you start asking, well, who do you meet in the morning? Oh, I have this neighbor that I walk with every day and I have a coworker I see every day and I go volunteer at this place. Before you know, you have eight or nine witnesses you work with, but if you don't spend that time, you can get out of that.
Cole Gumm:I I remember from again when very early on, I remember you you teaching me about, hey, just have a walk through the day. What do they do day to day? What's their Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and so on? And they will start telling you a story where you can pick up on what's important to them and go and find those people that can speak to what is important to them. So I absolutely agree.
Jack Zinda:It drives me nuts sometimes when attorneys are working on large damages cases and they don't want to put in that time and effort because what are you getting paid to do then, right? That's how you get the extra value for your clients is going and be able to tell their story what they've been through. It also builds amazing trust with the client. They'll trust you so much more if they've seen you on a human level And you've been them, see what their lives are like day in, out, you know?
Cole Gumm:And even when you've you've got difficult clients, I find that working through that that relationship when when things aren't going the way that they expect it to be going, You know, litigation can be very stressful for the client. And I think the more you just you you address those issues and you you take them head on, you talk to the client, counsel them on why things are the way they are, again, they will understand that you're doing everything in your power. And and over time, I think even the most difficult clients will respect and appreciate once they realize, yeah, that person's on my side and and they've got my story, you know, in my best interest in mind. You know, you had a
Jack Zinda:case recently where it involved a truck driver and some illicit drugs. Yep. And you got even more great information than just the fact they were on drugs at the time of the incident. Tell tell me about that case and how you were able to pull that information out because it added, you know, ten, twenty x value to the case.
Cole Gumm:Yes. It was a trucking case out of Houston. I represented a young college kid who was home for the summer and he was working at a warehouse there in Houston and he was out sitting in his truck for lunch, just eating his lunch, when all of a sudden he was struck by this work truck and that driver was on drugs at the time. And so we obviously filed the lawsuit. And by getting it, we learned that not only obviously, this wasn't his first time he had had a prior stint with the company.
Cole Gumm:He had actually taken a year where he was he was in jail for a year. And during that time, the company was talking to him about giving him his job back. And all of those those charges and his ongoing criminal stuff was all related to drugs. And so we were able to show that it's not just this one time, it's a pattern of behavior of you allowing and just turning your eye, know, turning a blind eye to very blaring red flags. And so at the end of the case, you know, we just, at some point they were, they didn't want to produce any more documents or put anyone else up for deposition.
Cole Gumm:And at that point, we were able to get resolved.
Jack Zinda:Alright. So let me set this scene. Alright. So our client is parked, and this guy comes and hits him in his commercial work truck, then he flees. Right?
Cole Gumm:Yep. Well, no. He ended up actually, he was stopped afterwards because he ended up plowing into about four cars cars out there. And so, no, he was ended he was found at the scene incoherent, and the police ended up almost having to break in to his vehicle to get him out. And and that's when he was brought to the hospital.
Jack Zinda:Was brought to the hospital, and then he gets caught puffing, which I guess is not, he's taking on a drug test, which for all you who are looking for ways to do
Cole Gumm:that, he's like
Jack Zinda:pro tip. And so then we find out he's huffing at the hospital and you keep digging further, right? You know, most attorneys would have taken that, you know, that and just given up and taken because they made a really good offer. The damages in this case weren't massive and they made a really strong offer earlier, but we kept digging further. So tell us, tell me about what you found when you started talking to the employer and doing your written discover.
Cole Gumm:Yeah. And so, you know, we always talk about if something happens, it's not just a coincidence. It's usually a pattern of some type of bad behavior that ultimately led to what happened. And so by digging into the, employer, we were able to, again, find all of the prior drug issues that he had had, their knowledge of it. As we started and kept digging into it, we obviously got the 911 calls, and we found that there had been calls about his Iraq driving for forty five minutes or so leading up to this.
Cole Gumm:People calling and saying, you know, he's gonna this guy's gonna kill someone. And so there was a lot of that. And and then when we took the the corporate representatives deposition, and it was the female owner of the company, and I think they had probably 100 employees or so. So it was a decent sized operation. She told us about multiple calls that were made in the minutes leading up to that to their office of people saying, you know, you've got this guy out here, you need to do something.
Cole Gumm:And at which point they had the capability of, you know, they tracking his vehicle and they just didn't do anything, didn't try to reach out to him. And again, that pattern of behavior, their hiring practices, allowing this guy to come back after he's, you know, incarcerated for drugs and and all of that. Those circumstances lamp to the result that we got
Jack Zinda:when I think that's that's a great point too. So you know, Cole's doing a great job here in telling the story from way before the incident happened. And this driver who Trimble Soul, you know, had been arrested for similar things before while working at the employer goes incarcerated, comes back and works for the employer again. And it's not something where you shouldn't give people second chances, but they didn't have any guardrails. They weren't going to do direct testing themselves and they put this person back on the streets and put the whole community in danger by that decision, which probably there were some cost savings involved because he was probably cheaper than getting some with a clean driving history.
Jack Zinda:And it's fine to be charitable, but not at the risk of everyone's safety and health. And thank goodness our client wasn't killed because it could have been way worse than what it was.
Cole Gumm:And to speak to that point even a little bit further, when when it got to the point of experts and hiring our experts, we hired a liability expert, a fleet safety expert who could talk about the hiring practices. And their defense was that we are a second chain supplier. And our expert was able to actually kind of turn that on them and say, then that is why it's so important that you if you're gonna be a second chance employer, that you take all of the necessary steps to ensure that whatever that pattern of behavior was before is not continuing. And here they just turned a blind eye to it and didn't didn't wanna know, I think, the truth.
Jack Zinda:Yeah. For sure. And that's that's second chance employer is someone who's going to give someone a second chance with boundaries and control, not someone who's going to send them back out there with a bunch of paint.
Cole Gumm:Yep, exactly.
Jack Zinda:Call something else. That's another reason I really like working. You can go really deep on cases and kinda get into the weeds on the tactics. Can think of any cases where you hired an expert and they kinda revealed something that you didn't expect or you were to pull something out that was really important?
Cole Gumm:Yeah. I think I can think of a couple trucking cases, for example, where, I truly believe in leaning on your expert to they're the subject matter experts. And so, there have been a couple trucking cases where there's regulations that have been violated that I'm not spotting that issue. And so and that can be the difference between a, you know, a good result and a great result once you uncover some of those things. And so specifically in trucking cases, can think of several where the regulations up, those violations ultimately added, you know, its weight and goal with what ultimately we were able to get out of the case.
Jack Zinda:Yeah. And I also say, I think it's really good advice to go to the scene with your experts if you can or send someone to that because one, you wanna make sure they're looking at everything you want them to look at. I remember we had a new attorney that joined the firm and I thought they had a lot of trucking experience and we had a case, it was a death case and a truck had been crossing the road and it was at night and so it was blocking the roadway and our client's vehicle ran into it. So I send this new attorney, not new to the practice, but new to us, said they had a lot of experience and go out with the expert and they do this inspection and guess what they don't look at? They don't look at the reflectors.
Jack Zinda:And this, the whole case was a reflector case. And I was like, how did Joe
Cole Gumm:not look at the reflectors?
Jack Zinda:And he was like, oh yeah, we should have looked at the reflectors. And it just was a lesson to me of don't take anything for granted. Everybody has a bad day and no one's gonna care about the case as much as you do. Sometimes the client doesn't care as much as you. So, like, getting out there to see with your own eyes what's going on.
Jack Zinda:And we always preach,
Cole Gumm:you know, having an attorney at whatever inspection you're doing for that exact reason. The expert doesn't know the the case like you do and what the issues that you're you know are very important. And getting out there and being with the expert, having them show you what they're finding. Again, it allows you to understand the case in a way that I think a lot of attorneys don't get to understand the case because they're not going out and doing those things.
Jack Zinda:Well, and another tip to remember is don't share a lot on your side, but listen to the other side a lot. I can't tell you how many times the defense will send a junior associate out to the scene. Yeah. And I'll be in the inspection or you'll be in the inspection. And this associate tells us everything.
Jack Zinda:Like, we don't know why you haven't painted. We saw the file. These damages are bad. We're so screwed on liability. And we're like, wow, thank you for sharing all this information.
Jack Zinda:So we know like where you're at in the case.
Cole Gumm:It's crazy. It happens more than you think. It really does. I remember a case that went to trial last summer. We had a there was a junior associate and she was new to the firm.
Cole Gumm:She and she came into a deposition and kind of some of the same things. She just started off the record telling me how she felt about the case, what they've been reporting to the carrier. And it allowed me to kind of tailor how I argued the case knowing what would affect their decisions.
Jack Zinda:Yeah. A 100%. And I I know some people have kind of a scourge to earth approach with their opponents. I like to get to know defense attorneys we're working with. One, it's good just to to have a good cordial relationship.
Jack Zinda:But two, you know, in my experience, they will share way more than we will if and their their level of dedication to the insurance company is not as strong as ours too. The the client doesn't mean they're doing anything unethical, but they'll they'll lead up you to something that you may not know otherwise.
Cole Gumm:Absolutely. And I I think, you know, reputation matters in this industry. And I think you can be a jerk all the time if you want to be. But I think that, you know, very quickly, you're going find that you're not going to have any clients and you're probably not going to get paid on many cases. And I think just a pattern of being respectful, but being diligent in what you do, advocating for your client.
Cole Gumm:I know that defense attorneys will respect some of the decisions I make knowing that I'm out there trying to do the best for my client and it's nothing personal, you know, with the other attorney on the other side.
Jack Zinda:I agree and never be dishonest with opposing counsel, you know, never lie. I think once you've lied, you're kind of screwed your reputation and I try to always be professional, but also be firm. And it's funny, even if you are putting them in a tough spot, if you're being ethical about it, they don't, they're not gonna hold it against you because you're just doing your job for your client. Now if you're a jerk for no reason, that's gonna follow you and just buyer beware because you're gonna be in that spot at some point needing that.
Cole Gumm:Yeah. And defense attorneys, know if if what you're telling is the truth. They they can tell. Just like I can tell if a defense lawyer really believes what he's saying. And and so by being honest but firm, like you said, I think once you gain the respect of your opponent or the defense attorney, it makes things a lot easier.
Cole Gumm:Yeah. As you've kind of gone through all of that.
Jack Zinda:Well, you've worked on, to switch gears a little bit, on a lot of cases with kids, and that can be tough to both pull out the damages and to try to get, you know, a settlement done sometimes because the parents are involved. They may not understand that they're not gonna get any of money and also getting what happened to the kids pulled out of them. Can you think of a case where you dealt with kids and you were able to, you know, explain the damages more than maybe were there?
Cole Gumm:Yeah, so we've got a case against a diner where a cup of coffee was put in front of an 11 old baby and he grabbed the coffee cup and poured it all over himself, requiring him to be life flighted and stayed in the burn units. And, you know, that child can talk. And so to be able to really understand what he's going through, we hired, you know, a pediatric burn expert who could talk about what burn injuries do to a person, especially a young child, how that developmental delays can begin at such an early age when something like that happens. And then we did hire a mental anguish psychologist who could talk to just exactly what this kid who can't speak now is going to deal with for the rest of his life. And being able to show that through not only your experts, but then also, you've got all of the non economic damages witnesses.
Cole Gumm:So this kid lives with his grandparents and his mom and dad. And so going and taking the deposition of the grandparents, what have you noticed? You know, kind of taking all the further you can get the the better you can get information from someone who's as disinterested in the case, the better. And so, you know, the parents are always gonna be there and advocating for their their child. But when you hear it from a neighbor, a teacher, someone who really doesn't have any interest in it as to how that changed the kids patterns of behavior, I think that goes a long way and again goes to being able to show and tell your client story.
Jack Zinda:Oh, 100%. I think taking what happened to them and what they've gone through and trying to slow it down and explain what those things actually mean. I remember the first burn case I worked on and actually walking through how you debride skin and how you feel it for months and months and you hit phantom pain, phantom all sorts of things that you wouldn't think of. And if you just say, hey, they had a burn recovery, it doesn't break those things down into small pieces. And I remember I had a case when I first started practicing when I went to mental anguish where our client had a seeing eye dog and they were hit with the seeing eye dog.
Jack Zinda:The seeing eye dog wasn't hurt, but it had PTSD, so it couldn't be a seeing eye dog anymore because it got freaked out around cars. And of course, this young man couldn't have a dog like that because he needed a C and I dog. And he was just devastated about that. And so we hired someone who dealt with C and I dogs and he raised them, trained them, and his wife had had three, she was blind. And he explained how the relationship between an owner and a dog can be stronger than that between a mother and a child because they're so codependent.
Jack Zinda:And that story was so powerful coming from this gentleman whose wife, he does this for a living, his wife had had two dogs, really brought out a lot of damage. You say, it's just a just a dog that has PTSD, but then you hear the whole story and explain what actually happened. What did that mean? That brings out so much Absolutely. So much richness to the case.
Cole Gumm:And that's a great example of where think a lot of people would just, you know, what is the value of that dog? I know in that case, went out and priced how much does it actually take to to create a good seeing eye dog? What you learned was it takes years and it's yeah, hundreds, $100,000 or something like that. And you were able to build up a bit damage model on something that I think a lot of people would have, you know, chalked up as a few $100 loss and, and really just digging in and, and understanding what your client's story and what that damage really is can add a lot
Jack Zinda:of value. And if you've got a death case and you're trying to, let's say you don't have a great relationship between your client and the person was deceased or on its face doesn't look like a good relationship. You can really tell the story about what could have been, what's missing. I had a case where this gentleman, he was a nice guy. He worked in construction, kind of a carpenter, and he died in his early fifties from a fall because there was a lack of fall protection.
Jack Zinda:And his adult daughter hired us, but he wasn't there to raise her. They had just rekindled the relationship, like, that year, and she was in her mid twenties. And you think, that's a tough case. You have an adult child, not a great relationship. This is the only person that could tell that story, the only person who has a claim.
Jack Zinda:But we were able to tell the story about what was hoping for the future. You know, he was gonna be at her wedding. You know? They had a Disney they've done a Disney role together that year, there's pictures of them together. How she pictured him being involved in her future kids' lives.
Jack Zinda:And that story brought out a lot of what could have been. Absolutely. And that's that's you gotta be able to tell that.
Cole Gumm:Yep. And and again, it takes time. It takes effort. You've got to go out and learn that. And I think doing it day in and day out will add so much value to your practice.
Jack Zinda:Tell me about, you know, when you're at trial, what is your setup like with your team and how do you are you able to stay focused on what's happening in the trial without getting distracted by all this stuff like, hey, do have the right exhibit? Do I have right noise? What do you like to do set up practically?
Cole Gumm:So I like to focus on I take it day by day. So I I know which witnesses are gonna be called that day or whether we're doing opening or go dire. And and that usually, obviously, we've prepped it up to, you know, a week, two weeks out from trial. Everything should be basically put together. And like I said, the outlines may change.
Cole Gumm:And so during the day that I'm you may have three witnesses, I'm focused on solely what are you know, what evidence do I need to get out of those witnesses, making sure that I've got the questions that are the most important mapped out. And then I've got Chelsea who, you know, can handle all of the other stuff. And so I think focusing on what's important is very important, knowing what you can delegate to someone else to handle. And and, again, it's all about just being able to tell the client's story whatever way that whatever that means.
Jack Zinda:Yeah. And Chelsea is Cole's wife, for doesn't catch that. And she is one of the best attorneys I've ever worked with. So smart. Such so great on strategy and so great on her motion practice and her pellet work.
Jack Zinda:It's just unreal. And she's made her break, broke in a couple of cases first for sure in that front. You know, and I would tell you thinking ahead is really key for trial, I think. You know, I think and I found relaxing is important, know, because every trial, a lot of stuff is gonna go wrong. Judge is gonna say you have to call this witness now, not later, move the order.
Jack Zinda:And I'm so OCD that took a while for me to get over, but we can just relax. Okay. It's just natural. It's gonna happen. Yep.
Jack Zinda:Just get ready to roll with the punches and and figure out what is it that I need to do to win.
Cole Gumm:Yep. No. Exactly. And I I I cannot wholeheartedly agree about relaxing. I know the Saturdays before trial, you know, I think a lot of people would be prepping.
Cole Gumm:I take that entire day off. Yeah, just knowing that I need I need that time just to clear your mind of whatever you're about to have to go through. And then get back on it the next day. Even at night when we get out of trial, there's still a lot of work to do that night, but take an hour or two.
Jack Zinda:Go,
Cole Gumm:you know, go for a run, go, you know, walk around the block, whatever you need to do to kind of clear your mind and restart. I said, true, I find
Jack Zinda:that when I get a good night's sleep and I've exercised, I'm so much more sharp. Wish in law school I had not crammed as much. Because staying up late and not sleeping, you're just not as sharp, you know.
Cole Gumm:And that is important with trial. You know, you could stay up all night if you want, keep working and keep prepping, but the next day that's not going to be the best for you. So kind of that balance of being able to do the things that need to get done, but also giving yourself the time to relax and get the sleep that you need.
Jack Zinda:And what about, you know, when you're deciding how to value a case? So at what point do you start looking at the value of file? Let's say it's a bigger case, something with serious injuries that, you know, you're not sure what the range is going be. When do start looking at that and trying to line that up?
Cole Gumm:I I mean, wanna be doing it as, you know, as soon as you can from the time you get the intake of what do you think the case could be worth. And obviously, that's always gonna be changing. But as you are getting closer, let's say, a mediation, you know, we usually start probably thirty to forty five days out, making sure we've got all of, you know, our evidence in line that the defense has everything that they're gonna need to value it. And then, you know, we often will, you know, roundtable cases together, talk about what do you think this case is worth, what does, you know, the attorney down the hall think, ask your friends and family, people who aren't lawyers, what do you think about this case? Because those are ultimately your jurors.
Cole Gumm:And then focus groups. We use focus groups to tell to let us or give us some more data points of what what do strangers think about this case? Because sometimes it's hard when you're so personally involved in the case to see it from kind of a bird's eye view. Yeah.
Jack Zinda:I I completely agree. And, you know, look at what the upside is not. You want to consider the downside, but especially early in a case, look at what could the upside be because usually a case gets better for us as you get more litigation. Really, does it get worse unless you don't know what's going on with the client and then it could get worse if you're surprised by something like that.
Cole Gumm:Well, I think of some of our biggest cases at the firm have been cases that I think if if we look at the intake, it looks like something it's a minor case.
Jack Zinda:It's a
Cole Gumm:moderate motor vehicle collision and it ends up being a multimillion dollar result. And so like you said, look at the upside, knowing what, you know, who the bad actor is on the other side, a lot of that plays a role in the value of the case.
Jack Zinda:Yeah, I cannot tell how many times we've had a situation like that. I remember we had a case early in my career. We got a call from a woman. She was a grandmother and her son had been killed in a truck wreck near here in San Marcos and everybody blamed the driver of that vehicle, which was her son. So it was a commercial truck 18 wheeler, actually a cement truck, hits and kills our client and injures three others.
Jack Zinda:And everyone says our client ran the red line. And she called three law firms, turned down by three law firms and she comes to us and hires me and this is early in my career and so I'm, you know, trying to figure out how to investigate it and we get the nine one one tapes. And sure enough, several people in the nine one one tapes said that the cement driver ran the red light. And then we also got the download from the cement truck that showed they were actually accelerating at the time of the wreck, which showed they were trying to be the yellow. And they always went to lunch at this Whataburger across the street, this truck driver did, and he was late for when he usually goes to lunch.
Jack Zinda:And so those things put together turn that case from nothing to a policy limits case.
Cole Gumm:And one of the things that I like to do, and I learned it from another attorney who, works here, is I love when I get body cam or dashcam footage, sending that to a transcription service so that instead of sitting there for hours and watching video, you don't know when something's going to be pulled out, you kind of have to pay attention. You can kind of get it down to written form and read through what is the and you can find things in there that you don't even pick up on just by watching the video.
Jack Zinda:Yeah. Remember I had a case one time where we got video footage from a taser. Yep. It was a police death case that we worked on. And this gentleman who was in his fifties had some drug addiction issues, but was a nice guy.
Jack Zinda:He from this, like, really small town. And everyone there knew each other. The police that arrested the guy, grew up with him, it's one of those types of communities. And he ends up somehow dying on a routine stop that he actually called the police on himself because he was having kind of a panic attack from taking drugs. And they said, well, we we brought him in and he was dead when he showed up at the police station.
Jack Zinda:And which didn't make a lot of sense. Yeah. And so we start investigating. Like, the the car footage is too far away, and this is a this is probably fifteen ten years ago, twelve years ago. I'm not sure.
Jack Zinda:Some point. And so we couldn't see from the car. We could hear just a little bit, and I started looking into tasers because I knew it'd gotten tased, and sure enough, the tasers actually have little cameras on. Wow. That when you fire him, the cameras go off.
Jack Zinda:And the taser footage showed that they had tased him, like, nine times. This guy's, like, six to a hundred and thirty five pounds. Not a not a violent criminal record in his whole history. And it at first, was almost kinda comical because they tried to they came in and said, hey, do you want us to take you to the hospital or to jail? He's like he's having kind of a weird moment.
Jack Zinda:He said, well, take me to jail because they're gonna steal my blood And so then they said, okay. We'll come with us. And then he starts running from them kind of in circles in this, like, little, like, ranch area that he lives. He's in this little ranch. And it's kinda like he's not armed.
Jack Zinda:They're getting annoyed at him that he's doing it. And so they start tasing him and put someone puts their knee on his throat until he passes out. They put him in the back of the car. They drive by two hospitals, get to the police station, put him in the cell, then check on him. They said, oh, he must have died in the cell.
Jack Zinda:And it was clear from the footage that he was dead when they like put him in the car.
Cole Gumm:And that goes to, you know, trusting your instincts. So, know, when you when something smells a little fishy or it's not it doesn't seem right, it's probably not right. And, you know, in some of the cases we've just discussed of, you know, digging deep into, you know, trying to compel, you know, documents or information, it's really based on some type of just internal gut reaction of something doesn't seem right and trusting that instinct. And there's plenty of cases you don't find anything. But but usually, you know, I think I do believe in trusting your instinct and knowing what, you know, what you believe about the case and and ultimately, you know, following whatever your your belief is.
Jack Zinda:Yeah. That and that case was I remember I was being so so in the borderline if I was gonna take that case or not because the daughters of the person that was killed were so nice. They were such great people. And even though he wasn't super involved in lives, they were they turned out great good professionals. And there's, like, he is not a violent guy.
Jack Zinda:There's no way he assaulted these people. Yeah. And it was just something about them. Think, you know, let's let's look into this. This is a pre, you know, all this the latest police abuse situation we see last few years.
Jack Zinda:It was, like, fifteen, six a long time ago when those were not, you know, some of the cases you took at all.
Cole Gumm:One, it goes back to, you know, talking to the family members and learning who was this this individual, and knowing his patterns of behavior and knowing he's not a violent guy kinda led you down that path of finding what you found.
Jack Zinda:You know, one thing I also like about working with you is you're good about having time off to where you can recharge. I find that's really that's actually a tough skill for people to develop. I feel like people either can never turn off and get burnt out or just can never turn on. Just lazy or not in our standards. But you do a great job of being you you work hard, and then you know when to check out and have a good time and, like, alright.
Jack Zinda:I need to take a step back. Has that always been the case with something you had to develop over time?
Cole Gumm:Definitely developing over time. You know? I think practice in law is just that's what I love about it is you're always kind of learning. And I've learned that that is how I'm most successful for my clients is to take that time, get away, and I'm a better lawyer when I come back. I think what I found early on was you can get that burnout if you're just continuously doing it.
Cole Gumm:At some point it becomes too much. And so I learned that I become a better lawyer when I take that time. You know, and I think that's
Jack Zinda:a great point. What I think of us as athletes and a good athlete knows when to take a rest day, knows when to, you know, work a different part of their brain, their muscles, and it's the same with whether you're a professional or practice on really anything you do. If you think about it like if you're gonna, you know, train for a marathon, if you just ran every day for nine hours, you're not gonna do it very well because your body is just exhausted. Yeah. The same with our brains.
Jack Zinda:And I think that's why there's a lot of depression in our industry is people don't know how to turn off. Yeah. And sometimes they turn to substances and other things that can make it even worse. Yeah. Like huffing paint
Cole Gumm:and stuff. Exactly. Exactly. Don't go do that. Don't be don't huffing pain.
Jack Zinda:Well, this is great, man. I've really enjoyed our conversation. Before we step out, is there anything you'd wanna leave, a young trialer with any tips or tactics to say, hey. I would really remember this when you're, you know, young in your career.
Cole Gumm:Yeah, I think, you know, we talked a little bit about it, but when you're, you know, when you're getting out there, the the more you experience any, you know, situation and and whether that's a hearing or, you know, sitting in on a deposition, I've what I learned was really just from watching other good lawyers do what they do and adopting the things that I found to be helpful and letting go of the things I didn't think were helpful. And, you know, just putting yourself out there. You know, I know we talk about it, but the young attorneys that are the most successful are the ones that come in and are offering to help. They want to see how these bigger cases work. And, you know, slowly but surely, they start to develop those tactics and they can handle them on their own.
Jack Zinda:That's a great tip. Well, Cole, this is an awesome man. Love talking to you. If anyone has any other questions for myself or Cole, please reach out to the firm. Always happy to help on this or any other cases.
Jack Zinda:Absolutely. And until next time. Thanks.
Cole Gumm:I appreciate it.
Narrator:That wraps up another episode of The Effective Lawyer. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you've got a minute, a quick rating or review goes a long way. Want more tips, insights, and stories from the field? Head over to zindalaw.i0 to learn more.
Narrator:Thanks for listening. Until next time.