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Historians Michael Campbell (PhD) and Gregory Howell (PhD, abd) take us on a journey through the world of Adventist history with fantastic interviews, discoveries, and details you won't hear anywhere else.
And it was super cheap. I mean, it was economical. I mean, they couldn't believe that some people, some young newlyweds were asking to stay in the cemetery in the guest room in the attic. And and so I think it was like, you know, £5 a night or something like that. And so, like, are you sure you wanna do this?
Michael W. Campbell:And we're like Holy cow. You know, it's a Amicus historic site. And,
Matthew J. Lucio:Michael But now, yeah, I understand it's
Heidi Olson Campbell:been converted into upscale apartment.
Matthew J. Lucio:This is how every horror movie starts. Like, 2 young people, they go to Europe. They're like, we wanna stay here near the cemetery, and they're like, are you sure? Oh, yeah. It's super cheap.
Matthew J. Lucio:Okay. Hey. Kick us off, Michael.
Michael W. Campbell:Alright. Let's do it. 3...
Michael W. Campbell:Welcome to the Adventist pilgrimage podcast with your host, Michael Campbell. Greg is MIA, but he'll be joining us hopefully soon. And I have Matthew Lucio from our Adventist History Podcast Network. And, I'm excited today because we have a special guest, Matthew.
Matthew J. Lucio:Who do we have here? She looks vaguely familiar.
Michael W. Campbell:Vaguely familiar. I tell you, I don't I can't imagine, but but I think, someone very special and, is an incredible historian and, has something very special we're gonna find out that is about to be released this month with women's history month, and that is none other than Heidi Olsen Campbell.
Matthew J. Lucio:Oh, it's your wife. Fantastic.
Michael W. Campbell:Absolutely. And so I just am so excited because, she is a passionate historian, a very good thinker, and, of course, I'm not biased at all. But but, and she's also in the middle of finishing up a PhD in early modern history. Welcome, Heidi. Tell us what early modern history is because some people have no idea.
Heidi Olson Campbell:and it's a debated term like all terms in history. Right? Because there's like, is there a clear delineation between late medieval, early modern? Because, of course, people didn't wake up one day and say, okay. Now it's the modern period.
Heidi Olson Campbell:But it's, the period of time around 1500 to about 1800 is generally considered the early modern period, though I delve all the way into late medieval. So it's a slippery area between the two terms periods of time. So as we start developing into a lot of the structures and ideas of this of that developed the modern period right now.
Matthew J. Lucio:So, basically, when Martin Luther was born, it became the modern era?
Heidi Olson Campbell:Yes. Of course. That's how it works. No.
Matthew J. Lucio:Well done, Martin.
Heidi Olson Campbell:But yes. Yes. Well, you know, it was a little bit beef after actually Martin Luther was born, and Martin Luther is definitely like a product of the late medieval period in many ways, but, probably a better starting point would be thinking more of, like, the discovery of the continents of America. Right? Because that's really the what does a lot of impact in changing the view of the world.
Matthew J. Lucio:You're see, that that makes a lot of sense, but you're ruining my clear delineation. Like, you could say the the modern era began with Martin Luther. Maybe postmodern era coincides with Martin Luther King.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Okay.
Michael W. Campbell:I can
Heidi Olson Campbell:see that.
Michael W. Campbell:Sixties. Wow.
Matthew J. Lucio:Anyways, I'm just saying it it it makes for, kind of a popular retail, categorization. May not be strictly factual, but, you know, I'm a podcaster, so when does that ever stop me?
Heidi Olson Campbell:It's a way of of thinking about the parameters anyways. But yeah.
Michael W. Campbell:Yes. Reminds me of George Knight. He used to always talk about KISS. Keep it simple, and then there was the extra s that he kinda hesitated, and then he'd say stupid. Yes.
Matthew J. Lucio:He's a simple.
Michael W. Campbell:I I'm sure he was looking at me, you know, but, anyway Well, Heidi, I
Matthew J. Lucio:am very happy to have you on board here. Now we usually I say we. This isn't my podcast, but I'm not used to seeing a lot of early modern historians on Adventist pilgrimage. So you must be doing something in relation to Adventist history.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Well, as with many historians that are also 7th day Adventists, we like to dip our feet into the other the Adventist history as well and are interested in it. And, really, my interest in Adventist history is part of what inspired me to go into studying history to begin with. And then as well, obviously, like, I took classes in a variety of different areas and periods of time. And so amongst those, I have done some stuff on modern Chinese history. And because of that, I did some research on Adventist missionary women and bible workers, Chinese bible workers, which were predominantly women.
Heidi Olson Campbell:And so that has led into my interest in doing stuff on Adventist women.
Michael W. Campbell:And didn't they have, like, a term for that, like bible women and stuff?
Heidi Olson Campbell:Yep. Bible women, were often what they were that was not an Adventist term or a uniquely Adventist term as much as we'd like to claim it maybe. But bible women actually predate Adventist involvement in missions. Other groups also used women in India and China particularly to go administer to other women because they recognize that a lot of those cultures were not really accepting of men going in administering to women at home.
Matthew J. Lucio:Interesting. Interesting. Okay. That makes sense. I see how you you have gotten your foot in the door here with Adventist history and, but you're you're also doing a podcast.
Matthew J. Lucio:Is it is it about these bible women, or is it about something else?
Heidi Olson Campbell:Well, it started out because of the interest in bible women. Unfortunately, I don't speak Chinese, so I have to use English resources. And because of that, I have started looking into a lot of stories of Adventist women missionaries particularly. But the podcast is not just about Adventist women missionaries. It's called they also served, and it's looking at the roles that women played and the many, many roles that women played in, Adventist history and in the development of creation of the church that we know today.
Michael W. Campbell:So drum roll. They also serve new Adventist history podcast. This is amazing. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
Michael W. Campbell:Where did that title come from?
Matthew J. Lucio:Ah, it's a great question because I actually have the book with not that I mean, it's a podcast. No. No. We have video too.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Alright. I will hold it up and show it
Matthew J. Lucio:to you guys.
Heidi Olson Campbell:It's a book by a woman named Ava Covington. Covington is her unmarried name, and I actually did a lot of research to find out who Ava Covington was because as far as I knew, no one had done research on her. But, anyways, They Also Served is a book by a woman in the early half of the twentyth century who wrote in her introduction that she was writing the book because the stories of women were being lost and that people didn't know the roles of women in the Adventist church. And so she was trying to record them before those women's stories got lost completely. She does mention Ellen White as one of the people, and she one of her chapters is on Ellen White, but she also highlights other women.
Heidi Olson Campbell:And there are many, many roles in the church, including people like Nellie Drouillard, who was a big fundraiser, the first single woman who went as a missionary to Europe, and things like that. And I'm talking about Maud Sicely Boyd, not not Jane Andrew's daughter. And that's Okay.
Matthew J. Lucio:Okay. Well, welcome to the the Adventist history podcasting family. I know you're not part of the Adventist History Project. You're doing this through the Adventist Learning Community. Right?
Matthew J. Lucio:But you're still part of our family. And, Michael knows, Greg knows, I think. I have been wanting to get a female podcast host in the Adventist history realm for a long time, and I am very excited that you are the one who has stepped into this and, hopefully, only the first of many to come. But you are you are making history while reporting on history.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Yes. And and that was one of the fun things about doing putting together podcast because, one of the people we interviewed was Ella Simmons, who, as I say in my introduction of her, is actually like a fur. So she is history and is still alive. So, so that is kinda cool to be able to meet people who actually are making history themselves.
Matthew J. Lucio:Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. So this is a podcast you're gonna be telling Adventist women's stories. Ella is one of them.
Matthew J. Lucio:And what are some of the other people you're gonna be talking about?
Heidi Olson Campbell:Group on the North America division that's really sponsoring and then looking at it. And as North American based people mostly that I'm interviewing, but we are trying to highlight women from around the world a little bit or at least mention their stories or how women were impacting other parts of the globe. So we will talk about Petra Thunheim. We're gonna talk about who actually went from Europe all the way to Java and China. So she was very active all the way around the world.
Heidi Olson Campbell:We'll be talking about, Anna Knight, who was a missionary to India amongst other things and her story. So we're gonna be trying to talk about and we'll talk about some women in South America, Millerite women. Anyways, a lot of different women from different time periods who did things like editing and writing and education and medical work.
Matthew J. Lucio:Alright. But the question is, why? I mean, I I would imagine most most listeners or watcher viewers are are probably in the boat, that, that they'd never heard of some of these people, maybe most of these people you've mentioned. And so why why tell women's stories? Like, you know, don't we have all these Adventist history books?
Matthew J. Lucio:And and, don't we basically understand Adventist history enough? Why do we need these other stories? What do they add to Adventist history? I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
Heidi Olson Campbell:No. Absolutely. That is a question, and that's kind of what we tackle in our first episode is talking about why study women's history. And it is a great question because people do say, you know, we've already we have history books already written. We know the the basic course of history.
Heidi Olson Campbell:So why do we need to know women's stories? Well, first of all, to loosely quote, Mao Zedong, women hold up half the sky, is a famous quote. And when we tell half the story, when we just tell focus on men's stories, we're only telling half the story. We're missing out on how things shaped up. When we look at the Adventist church, I believe recent statistics that came out from, Adventist, archive statistics and research, 59% of the church is they're approximating, I mean, the numbers or the statistics are hard to come by exactly, are women.
Matthew J. Lucio:Right.
Heidi Olson Campbell:So if we don't tell their stories or look at that 59%, we're getting a very incomplete picture of how the past of the church and even the future of the church. And when we don't represent, both sides of the story or all sides of the story, we also are telling people that there oftentimes, it can be a it can end up omitting and making people feel like they're not as important to the role of the formation of the church. So it actually impacts our future. It has the potential to impact our future if we don't tell those stories because representation helps us see what we can become and why we need to participate in something.
Matthew J. Lucio:It's crazy to me that 60% of the church can be female, and we know so few female stories in Adventist history. I mean, how how alienating that must that must feel at times to just be the majority, to be the ones who are holding up the local church as as, as women often are, and and then to hear stories of other people.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Yeah. So it's an important ask I think it's a huge gap, a key huge missing piece of our story. We have a handful of women that we mentioned in Adventist history classes, like Ellen White predominantly and sometimes Annie Annie Smith or, boy, my brain is suddenly going blank. Oh, Rachel Oakes Preston. There's those handful of women, but there's so many more stories, as will be revealed.
Heidi Olson Campbell:And I especially find fascinating how many single women were really active as missionaries, and those stories are almost completely absent in our narrative.
Michael W. Campbell:And I think that's partly because if they were single, there was nobody to tell their story. Right? Or, I mean, this is some of the reason why some of these stories have haven't been told. Right?
Heidi Olson Campbell:Well
Michael W. Campbell:At least in part?
Heidi Olson Campbell:Yeah. There's a lot of reasons these stories haven't been told. Partially because a lot of times, those women are not in the top leadership positions, and we're really good at telling the top leadership positions True. True. Because we've done a lot institutional history.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Right? And so we're looking at the institutions. So we look at the top people, the people who are really visible, very vocal. And so the stories of women tend to drop out in that because women are often working behind the scenes, doing activities. And, oftentimes, they're not promoting themselves.
Heidi Olson Campbell:So married women tend to to promote their husband's careers in what they were writing or saying. And so those stories often, and usually often were what they would have even been considered like a supporting role. And I may talk a little bit about Minnie Crissler here and how she played a supporting role in promoting her husband's view her husband's legacy, but not promoting her own. And then the single women, oftentimes, unless they wrote down their own story now we have a few exceptions, like Annie Anna Knight, rather. She actually wrote her own, like, autobiography.
Heidi Olson Campbell:And because she lived a really long time, that also helped retain her memory because a lot of people really appreciated her services and, like, kept her story alive. But, yes, for many single women, that meant when they died, if they didn't write down their story, that nobody kept telling their story and they disappeared.
Michael W. Campbell:Talk about disappearing stories. So Anna Knight, but you found a story connected
Matthew J. Lucio:to Anna Knight recently, right, of a
Michael W. Campbell:a woman who kinda was disappeared?
Heidi Olson Campbell:The top of my head. I was just working on that last night, actually. Oh, Edith Embry. She wasn't a single woman, though. She did get married.
Heidi Olson Campbell:But Edith Embry was the woman who actually helped convert her to Adventism. And I see it her name mentioned in a lot of, like, biographies of Anna Knight. But Edith Embry, does there's no more discussion of who she was or, what she did after talking to Anna Knight. And so I decided to do some digging last night to find out who she was. And Edith actually, worked for Pacific Press and Signs of the Time and did apparently do this a lot.
Heidi Olson Campbell:She would communicate with people who would write in, send bible studies out to them, and, work with them anyways through the bible studies to help convert them to Adventism. And later on, she gets married to a guy, and that's that's also one of the reasons that we lose a lot of the people's names or the women's identities or their roles. Like, same thing with Ava Covington. Mhmm. I didn't know anybody who really knew who she was.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Part of it is because in when she was in her late thirties, early forties, she got married to a guy named Wall and actually came to the DC area. Her husband worked for what is now Washington Adventist University and was, essentially, like, the dean of the Art School of Arts and Sciences. And, so and she never had children of her own. So she raised his 2 her 2 stepchildren because he had been married before, but she had no kids of her own. And so her name her story has just kind of disappeared too.
Heidi Olson Campbell:And Edith, anyways, gets married. She becomes a nurse. He works as a nurse, and she works as a she's clearly still an active bible worker in Cull Porter in her later years, but nobody's nobody's investigated her story.
Matthew J. Lucio:Hold on. Did you guys go find her grave, though, if she was in the DC area?
Heidi Olson Campbell:Ava? No. She didn't actually get buried in the DC area, because she ended up moving out after her husband
Matthew J. Lucio:Just saying. It sounds like a great, like, I don't know, 20th, 25th, what however long you guys been married anniversary Okay. Idea.
Michael W. Campbell:Well, we did. Like,
Heidi Olson Campbell:what was it? 2 years ago a year ago when we were at PUC in California, we went around the graves in Healdsburg and looked for early missionaries. Some of the people that I that I will talk about in the podcast or have written
Matthew J. Lucio:Alright. Well
Michael W. Campbell:That was that was a great anniversary trip. What
Matthew J. Lucio:are you
Michael W. Campbell:talking about?
Matthew J. Lucio:You know what no one says. Nobody parties like an Adventist historian. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Matthew J. Lucio:Those parties are on fire. Anyways,
Michael W. Campbell:This for anyone listening, that's that's it got started on our honeymoon. But, anyways, we'll just leave it at that.
Heidi Olson Campbell:We all did date at at cemeteries.
Matthew J. Lucio:This does not get better. Like, the more you find out, friends, the more questions you have. That's all I'm gonna say. Somebody needs to do an encyclopedia article on YouTube.
Michael W. Campbell:Have mercy. Have mercy. But it it's not like we went to, like, a retirement home or anything on our on our honeymoon. You know?
Matthew J. Lucio:Yeah. Absolutely did. That is just astounding to me. But speaking of the encyclopedia, Heidi, you wrote some, articles in Adventist Women in the encyclopedia. Right?
Michael W. Campbell:That's it.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Yes. On 4 women well, 4 women and a man. So one was a couple, one, and then 3, 3 women. So they were all missionaries to China, and all of them were super exciting lives, at least to me, because most of them actually were there during World War 2. Not the time that you want to be in China, by the way, just in case
Michael W. Campbell:you were wondering
Matthew J. Lucio:Spoiler alert for those of you with the time machine.
Michael W. Campbell:Yeah. Think think concentration
Heidi Olson Campbell:is them. So
Michael W. Campbell:Well, for some of them, they had to flee or they got captured.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Yes. Well, the one exception was Celia Bryant who actually her husband went and was a doctor in the United States, and they actually they weren't there. She didn't get stuck in a concentration camp. But Olga Os did. So should I tell Olga Oss' story?
Matthew J. Lucio:Let's hear it.
Michael W. Campbell:Do it.
Heidi Olson Campbell:You know, Michael loves John Os who because he was into publishing and traveled all the way to inner Mongolia. So he was, like, the quite the traveler. And the interesting part is when you read these stories of men that were missionaries, you see all the places they went and stuff and all the positions that they held. But then you start wondering to yourself, there was a church in whatever town they were supposed to be centrally located in, And they often had some kind of position that they held. So what happened to that local church where they were when they were off traveling to inter Mongolia and Tibet and stuff like that?
Heidi Olson Campbell:Well, my contention is that, actually, their wives held down the board, basic. And often kind of held on to their positions, took over their positions, while they were gone just to try to keep things going. So Olga Oz has a great story, and she wrote, she was a writer. Most of these women were writers, which is part of the reason that I was able to find their stories and uncover them. Wrote a whole book on her experiences in China, and she she starts out by telling how she got really sick when she was, when her she had just arrived.
Heidi Olson Campbell:She actually had lost a child in the United States shortly before. Her husband was called as a missionary. And so she like, a 9 month old, it was the only child they ever had. And so she really didn't wanna go as a missionary to China, but her husband, John, was excited and said, let's go to China. So she went to China with him, and she was not happy.
Heidi Olson Campbell:And then he left her to go traveling and do his work in a town, and she didn't speak Chinese at this point very well, knew a handful of words. She had a Chinese employee that was helping her out. And she had met the women at the church, and that was about it, and she was all by her self. And she gets really, really sick, passes out. The Chinese employee thinks she's dead and calls the embassy horrible.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Because they're like, oh, no. We have a dead foreigner in their apartment. And the nice little m the embassy sends off somebody to check on this foreign American woman. It's not even the American embassy that sends somebody to check on it.
Matthew J. Lucio:Which embassy is it?
Heidi Olson Campbell:Oh, yeah. I need to ask that. I think it's, like, the German embassy or
Matthew J. Lucio:What? Is this, like, the 19 thirties? Is this Yes.
Michael W. Campbell:That's so true. They're
Heidi Olson Campbell:like, oh, she's alive. No worries. And so they take her to the Presbyterian hospital where she has been stuck for, like, a week. And she is deeply moved by the fact that the the Chinese people who she doesn't even speak Chinese, but the Chinese Adventist come and they pray outside her hospital bed why she's sick. And because of that experience, she realizes I need to be a better missionary, and these are kind to me.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Yeah. So this is this is story.
Matthew J. Lucio:Pardon me. Just from my what my experience with women, like, that is, like, the most that is the most female response ever. Like, all this stuff happens to me. I need to try harder. Clearly, that's the lesson here.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Like Yeah. Not that maybe my husband shouldn't have, like, left me
Matthew J. Lucio:Yes. Right? Right?
Heidi Olson Campbell:Yeah. Yes. So she really does try harder. So she decides, oh, yeah. My husband was supposed to sell all these books because this is the Cole Porter in heyday.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Right? And in gathering heyday. And my husband in
Michael W. Campbell:a pagan box.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Yeah. My husband was supposed to raise money for all these projects, and he's not doing it. So I will go and do it myself. And then she feels bad about, like, asking Chinese people as a foreigner for money. So she says, I will not ask Chinese for money.
Heidi Olson Campbell:I will ask only foreigners for money. So she goes around to American and German and French and whatever businesses and knocks on their doors and asks them for money and sells books. So great task. The Chinese women see her doing this and, like, raising money, and they're like, hey. We could help you out.
Heidi Olson Campbell:You know? Let's teach us how to do it too. And so they go so she starts training a little group of women in Manchuria. She's up in the north part of China. And it just kinda spreads.
Heidi Olson Campbell:And then accidentally, one day, she knocks on a door of a business that she thinks was run by a foreigner, and it's really by a Chinese person. And the Chinese person kinda gets ticked off at her when she says, I'm not going you know, I oh, I didn't mean to, like, ask you for money. And they're like, well, why not? I can help. So as as she ends up becoming a great fundraiser and trainer of other women on how to do call portering and ingathering and really starts training a bunch of bible workers in Manchuria, women bible workers, specifically.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Later gets moved her husband transferred down to Shanghai. She goes down to Shanghai, and she gets really involved in raising funds for hospitals and for the Red Cross. Because she has no kids, she stays during a lot of war torn periods. We have the where Shanghai gets shot up by the Japanese during, the Sino 2nd Sino Japanese war. And she writes an account of the horror of actually having, like, Adventist and at whole Adventist family gets killed.
Heidi Olson Campbell:It's really sad and tragic. And, like, finding the husband and trying to, like, comfort him and stuff like that because he was the only one that survived of his family. And, and then when she goes back to the US, since she gets evacuated from Shanghai that time, she goes around and asks money for does public speaking events, big public speaking events that are advertised in, like I'm trying to remember. I think it's Los Angeles Times. There's actually an advertisement about how she's gonna speak about this experience in China.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Yeah. So she's, yes, quite the fundraiser. Apparently, quite the the public speaker since they're putting her out there to do this. And but she goes back to China. She's like, okay.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Well, the, like, the Japanese have now taken over Shanghai. It's probably safe to go back. And so she goes back and ends up, they stay there, and then, of course, the Pearl Harbor is about ready to happen. Things are starting to tense up. She knows things are starting to tense up, but she and her husband decide to stay there.
Heidi Olson Campbell:They don't have kids, so they send the other missionary women. She's one of the few missionary women that stays, and they send the ones with children out to the Philippines, which is another story and not a good idea in the end. Yeah. And she and her husband get eventually, there's gradually restrictions that occur after Pearl Harbor, but they eventually get stuck in a concentration camp. Her husband gets super sick.
Heidi Olson Campbell:He gets taken off because he's so sick. They think he's gonna die, and they stick him in a hospital, and he, actually just disappears. She thinks he's dead for, like, a year or 2. And she doesn't find him till after the end of the war. Apparently, some Chinese church members find him and at in the hospital because you have to provide your own food.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Well, he has nobody. His Yeah. His wife's in a constant in here. So the Chinese, Adventist feed him all during the war and take care of him anyways.
Michael W. Campbell:I see. Wow.
Heidi Olson Campbell:But she she comes back after she goes back to the US, recovers from World War 2 and from all the weight that she lost and the dysentery she had and all of that stuff, comes back to China, serves until they get kicked out again by the communist this time, and then her husband dies of a heart attack in California shortly thereafter. But, quite the woman
Matthew J. Lucio:kidding.
Heidi Olson Campbell:And and a lot to financially build up and establish the hospitals that we often attribute to people like Harry Miller. In fact, yeah, she basically persuades a warlord in the north to donate property and money to build a hospital.
Michael W. Campbell:By the way, I don't know if we can do this, but, they've recently found the recordings, and preserved and digitized them from the 1946 GC session and there's a short little clip of Olga, us telling their story just a absolute firecracker.
Matthew J. Lucio:Yeah.
Michael W. Campbell:So I don't know. It's it if if there's a way that we can can share that, but it's it's amazing.
Matthew J. Lucio:Alright. Well, let's share it. We've asked sister John O'Rourke to give us briefly experiences in the internment camp in Shanghai.
Speaker 4:The Japanese place 18 barbed wires around the fence around the campus. They tried to exclude all outside contact with the world. They succeeded very well in doing this, but still they gave us 7 feet by 9 feet in which to live for each couple. And in these 7 by 9 feet, we found a wonderful place in which to commune with God.
Matthew J. Lucio:That's a fascinating story, though.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Yes. And I I think it actually shows a lot of the people that are actually building up the church. Like, Olga and all the women bible women that she worked with were clearly doing a lot to actually convert, evangelize, build the hospitals, build the educational institutions. She's actually such a good fundraiser that, they request her to go to the Philippines to train people to when they're starting to build Manila Hospital, what is still Manila Hospital actually today. They have her go over and train people to raise funds to build that hospital.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Anyways, so that's pretty
Matthew J. Lucio:Yeah. Yeah. So when after telling me all of that, you know, my first thought is, yeah, let's tell her story. Let's tell let's tell her husband's story. That's the that's the exciting one.
Matthew J. Lucio:There's nothing exciting in what she did. I mean, come on.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Do what? John did a lot of stuff too, but it's telling half the story when we miss the story.
Matthew J. Lucio:Yeah. Well said. Have you learned anything in studying these stories of Adventist women that has surprised you?
Heidi Olson Campbell:Wow. Well, I didn't realize how many back to the single women, I didn't realize how many single women we had that were going as missionaries. We often talk about married couples or husbands, but we don't really talk about these single women. And there were a lot of them, and they in fact, as many as a sometimes as many as a third or
Matthew J. Lucio:more of the missionaries in China, specifically, were single women. And
Michael W. Campbell:that of the different groups, like, you know, there were single men, single women, married couples, whatever, The single women is the single largest group of all those different groupings, I believe. Isn't that right?
Heidi Olson Campbell:No. Though the argument is that there were more women as missionaries than men.
Michael W. Campbell:Overall?
Heidi Olson Campbell:Overall. Yes. Because they would send single women out, but they would rarely, rarely see send single men out. And that's true across denominations, not just Adventist. So oftentimes, they would encourage men if they wanted to go as missionaries to get married really quick before they went.
Matthew J. Lucio:Really quick indeed. It's like, find your find your girlfriend in college and, well, I was gonna say put a ring on it. Don't put a ring on it. Just get married.
Michael W. Campbell:Oh, and Put
Matthew J. Lucio:a watch put a watch on it.
Heidi Olson Campbell:There were some women that decided that really wanted to go as missionaries and were willing to marry whoever it was that needed to that they needed to marry so they could go as missionaries, which is a weird way of picking a spouse. I don't think it's recommended. But But is it
Matthew J. Lucio:weirder than going to a cemetery on your honeymoon?
Michael W. Campbell:Well I don't want to talk about it, Matthew.
Matthew J. Lucio:Oh, the stories we have yet to tell in having a history.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Well, the cemeteries are at least just, you know, like, a temporary thing.
Matthew J. Lucio:That's true. That's true. That's true.
Michael W. Campbell:Yeah. Definitely. It's a grip contemplation as quiet, as peaceful, and restful.
Matthew J. Lucio:Totally normal.
Michael W. Campbell:Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew J. Lucio:Very normal. We all do it. Could've gone to Dubai, Hawaii. Anyways,
Heidi Olson Campbell:we really search hard for that Joel Stifel site, though.
Michael W. Campbell:Anybody is listening? Okay. I I I'll never live this down, but we did visit Joseph Wolf's house and church and, of course, the cemetery.
Matthew J. Lucio:Yes. And we
Michael W. Campbell:did stay in the Elbury Park Estate And in the retirement home. So my confession, it's fully out there, that that I that these are my my the the confessions of an Adventist historian.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Yes. And the people in the little town were so lovely as we were looking, and they also thought we are completely insane.
Michael W. Campbell:Yeah. They were like, are you sure you wanna go here in your honeymoon?
Matthew J. Lucio:Oh my goodness. That is that is how every horror movie starts, guys. But, hey, I'm glad you're alive. It obviously worked out just fine. You guys are both doing Adventist history at a high level, and and I'm literally looking forward to your podcast, Heidi.
Matthew J. Lucio:It's, it's coming out soon, I hope.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Yes. The first episode, I believe, will drop on March 15. That is the
Matthew J. Lucio:The Ides? The Ides of March? Are we too aware of them?
Michael W. Campbell:Hopefully not. No. Women's history month.
Matthew J. Lucio:History month. That's right. That's right.
Heidi Olson Campbell:And also a Friday, which makes it a great day to drop because the to start the podcast because then people can listen to it over the weekend.
Matthew J. Lucio:Yes.
Heidi Olson Campbell:When they're out, I don't know, mowing their lawn or
Matthew J. Lucio:Yes. Yes. So
Michael W. Campbell:where do they find this Adventist, his new new podcast, They Also Serve? Where do they find it, Heidi?
Heidi Olson Campbell:So they find it on Spotify or on the Apple Podcast app or wherever you find podcasts.
Michael W. Campbell:We can drop a link in the show notes. You're right, Matthew.
Matthew J. Lucio:Well, yeah, when it comes out, we can drop a link in here. And, of course, on our Adventist history project, social media, we'll be we'll be sharing the link to when it comes out. But March 15th, the first episode of they also served will be dropping. I hope you are as excited as we are because you guys are about to start hearing the other half of Adventist history. So I can't wait.
Matthew J. Lucio:How many episodes are there gonna be, Heidi? Are we going on, like, 10 seasons or what?
Heidi Olson Campbell:Well, I I understand you have 2 seasons only, but you have a lot of episodes into 2 seasons packed in. No. We're just starting out with 1 season of 12 episodes. So Alright. 12 12 episodes.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Right? It's very appropriate.
Matthew J. Lucio:Yeah. Yeah. You also are putting a lot of work into it, unlike me, because you're interviewing people and, like, putting their answers into the episode, you know, giving it the full NPR treatment here.
Heidi Olson Campbell:We we are. We're yeah. So we'll we'll see how it goes. No. But your episodes I I still love your episode on World War 2 where you talk about the woman right before World War 2, the German woman who went around
Matthew J. Lucio:Oh, hold the Yost.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Yes. She that is that is a trip of
Matthew J. Lucio:a story. And, of course, Michael and I, we went to go find that Denver Post article when we were in Denver.
Michael W. Campbell:Good. Actually, in the archives in Denver. I mean, what do you do for fun in Denver? Some people go skiing. Matthew and I, we go diving.
Matthew J. Lucio:So who am I to judge? Who am I to judge?
Michael W. Campbell:I don't know. Hey, Laura. If you're listening, I can't wait to hear where you guys go in your next anniversary.
Matthew J. Lucio:Laura
Michael W. Campbell:Laura,
Matthew J. Lucio:if you're listening, I I just want you to we can we can go to anywhere you wanna go.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Well, cemeteries can be very interesting to go. And I actually, on my own, when I went on a research trip to England, went to some churches because I was looking for the monuments of, to women and men anyways in the late medieval, early modern period of how they were portraying their dead relatives, which is also very fascinating. So, unfortunately, I guess we probably will still go to cemeteries.
Matthew J. Lucio:No. It's a perfectly acceptable place to do research and history. I think the it's just the honeymoon part that that I'm a little hung up on. But, but, hey, it's like a working it's like a working vacation here. We're doing research on the go.
Matthew J. Lucio:But yeah. Yeah. No. Cemeteries are really fascinating places to go to to figure things out. And, I am gonna be looking forward to the Ides of March.
Matthew J. Lucio:Caesar is gone, but, They Also Served is here. Yes. And
Heidi Olson Campbell:Yeah. So do listen and yes. The they also serve comes from the title. So it from Ava Covington's title. So it doesn't mean that women I should probably put we also serve because Oh.
Heidi Olson Campbell:But yeah. So
Michael W. Campbell:I know
Heidi Olson Campbell:I should change the title. But
Michael W. Campbell:Or she also served or something. I don't know. I I
Matthew J. Lucio:like it. My my my impression is that Ava Covington meant it kind of sincerely, whereas I feel like there's a little bit of, like, tongue in cheek, like, hey. They, 60% of the church, you know, they were also there. You know, kind of like, duh.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Yeah. It it's just pointing out to also that the stories aren't told. The the obvious lack, the obvious and and when you really think about it, women often are the educators, especially today, still even, that women are often the educators. And when do people make a lot of their formation of their character, their personality, their theological views? It's in their childhood, not in their adulthood as much.
Heidi Olson Campbell:True. And so, when we don't tell their stories and we don't think about their theology and what they're thinking, as they're ministering or tell teaching children, we kinda miss out on who we are and what we become.
Michael W. Campbell:I don't wanna give your away your first episode or or whatever, but but not only that, but the Matthew used the word other. There's this othering kinda thing. Right? And not only do we not tell the other, you know, an incomplete history. Right?
Michael W. Campbell:I mean, the the majority has has been women. It's an incomplete history. But it also the way we tell those stories sends a message to the new generation and young women and and what that message is that we want to share with them. Are they valued? Are they a part of that story or not?
Matthew J. Lucio:Absolutely. And that's that's I can understand that goal here is, like, we I hope I have 2 daughters, and I hope they listen to your podcast someday and realize there are people like me who made a difference in Adventist history, and I can make a difference too. And, if if that's what comes out of this, at least as far as my girls are concerned, I will be over the moon. And I'm sure there's many more young women out there, girls who are out there who are gonna hear this and hopefully hopefully see themselves in in some of these stories and realize what's possible for them.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Yeah. It'll be a win if that's the if your daughters are inspired
Matthew J. Lucio:by you. Be listening. And to quote another, eminent Adventist historian, Kevin Burton, I love women.
Michael W. Campbell:If you know the story behind that, you gotta listen to one of our previous episodes of the 7th Baptist. And, I'm I'm so glad I'm so glad that we have have you on record for that, Matt.
Matthew J. Lucio:Oh, that that quote will never go away.
Heidi Olson Campbell:Good bird is in our episode too, and he has some great stories. So He does.
Michael W. Campbell:Oh, man. Well, it's been a a fun time just, talking with you, Heidi. I'm so excited and thrilled. I know you've been working really hard on this. I mean, you've put dozens, probably 100 of hours, along with a whole team that have been working with you on this.
Michael W. Campbell:So this is a a great new resource. So they also served. You've been listening, to the Adventist Pilgrimage podcast as we've been interviewing Heidi Olson Campbell, and, watch for this episode to drop March 15 wherever you listen to, wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening and joining us, and join us every month as we delve deeper into our Adventist past.
Matthew J. Lucio:And Jesus himself said that he did not come to do away with the law.