Naturally High

In this insightful episode of Naturally High, Jeanne Foot sits down with Rabbi Josh Zebberman for a rich conversation on relationships, identity, trauma, and what it truly takes to create connection that lasts. Together, they explore why so many couples get stuck in the “content” of conflict while missing the deeper emotional context underneath it.

Josh shares his refreshing, hope-filled approach to relationships, reminding us that people are more than their pain, their trauma, or their patterns. He explains why communication alone is not the answer, how authenticity changes the quality of our relationships, and why healing begins when we learn to see ourselves and others more fully.

Jeanne and Josh also talk about responsibility, emotional maturity, and the courage it takes to stop waiting for others to change and instead begin showing up differently ourselves. This episode is a powerful reminder that even in pain, there is hope and that meaningful change begins the moment we decide to take it seriously.

In this episode, you’ll hear about:
  • Why relationships often get stuck in content instead of context
  • Why communication is a magnifier, not the foundation of connection
  • How trauma can affect relationships without defining the whole person
  • The importance of seeing people for more than their pain
  • Why therapists and coaches must believe in clients, not just their stories
  • How authenticity creates more ease, lightness, and intimacy in relationships
  • What it means to take 100% responsibility for how you show up
  • Why people are often doing the best they can with the capacity they have
  • How hope becomes the leverage point for healing and change
  • Why couples need to stop trying to “marry themselves” and learn to value difference
  • How presence, humor, and lightness can help restore connection
  • Why even one grain of hope is worth exploring

About Rabbi Josh Zebberman

Rabbi Josh Zebberman is a counselor, rabbi, speaker, and educator who helps people better understand identity, resilience, hope, and the mindset needed to show up as their strongest, most grounded self. With a master’s degree in marriage and family therapy and training in solution-focused therapy, Josh brings a strength-based approach to personal growth and relationships.

Drawing on years of clergy and counseling experience, he offers a grounded, accessible style that helps people navigate change, transitions, emotional healing, and connection. His work integrates real-world stories with practical frameworks that support confidence, well-being, and relational growth.

Resources discussed in this episode:

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Contact Jeanne Foot | The Recovery Concierge: 
Contact Rabbi Josh Zebberman: 

Creators and Guests

Host
Jeanne Foot
RZ
Guest
Rabbi Josh Zebberman

What is Naturally High?

On Naturally High you’ll receive transformational tools and hear inspirational stories that will guide you into holistically healing trauma in every corner of your life. You deserve to invoke your inner healer. I'm so glad you're here!

Jeanne: [00:00:06] Hello and welcome back to Naturally High. You guys are in for a special treat today. I'm excited to introduce you to our special guest, Josh Zimmerman. Now Josh is a counselor, a rabbi, a speaker, and an educator who helps people understand identity, resilience, hope, and the mindset needed to show up as the strongest, most grounded self. He holds a master's degree in marriage and family therapy and is trained in solution-focused therapy as well. And he brings a strength based approach to personal growth. So, drawn on years of clergy and counseling experience, he brings a grounded, accessible style that supports students and faculty as they navigate change, transitions and connection. He talks, integrates real world stories and clear frameworks that enhance confidence, well-being, and thriving in life. I love the fact that we have a chance to talk about relationships, because every time I get a chance to talk about relationships and whether it's relationship with self, relationship with others, family members, there's so much goodness there and yet it's so much, I believe, misunderstood. Would you say that to be true, Josh?

Josh: [00:01:11] Yes. I think it's one of the most misunderstood things in life. And I'll tell you the irony of this. Most interactions are relationships, whether, like you said, a relationship with yourself or relationship with other people. So we definitely want to make sure we understand it. We want to make sure we’ve got it, or at least we're on the journey toward understanding it.

Jeanne: [00:01:33] We're relationship based creatures. We're looking for thriving. We're looking for connection. And I feel that especially in relationships… Now, I you don't know this about me, but I've been married 45 years in March. So we got married as children practically. So we've had a lot of evolutions and growth within our relationship, within self, within the relationship. And I see couples who just become so disinterested with one another. And that to me is, I feel like selling ourselves short. So, you know, we want to try to reconnect what was once there. And I believe that we all lose ourselves in content, not context. So this means so we get into the argument of he said, she said, you did, you didn't. And that's really not the argument. The argument, I believe, underneath all of that is how does this person make me feel when they're not hearing what I really need or want, or they've just missed the whole plot? Can you expand on that a little bit, Josh?

Josh: [00:02:34] Yeah. I love how you make that contrast between content versus context, because I think that frames very well my perspective on relationships, my identity perspective on relationships. When I first meet a couple, they'll usually say something like, we need to work on communication, which is content, right? We need to work on being more respectful. That's that's a thing. Respect is a thing. It's a useful thing. It's not a bad thing. Communication is a useful thing. But there are things. These are content. And what I do through a series of questioning is take people on a journey from focusing on content to focusing on the context, because the context of the relationship is where things thrive and content without context is meaningless. So I'll give you an example. If I were to help a couple enhance their communication, but they are in a very negative space, what are they going to communicate about? Their insults are going to be more articulate.

Jeanne: [00:03:42] They’re points at that point, like that that landed. I just I got her or he got me right or whatever.

Josh: [00:03:48] Right, right. It's just going to make the knife sharper. There's research that reflects this as well. John Gottman, which is one of the leading relationship specialists, researchers and researchers writes in one of his books that there's no research that shows that communication is what contributes towards, or good communication, is what contributes towards a thriving marriage. You have people that very have very happy marriages with very poor communication. You have people that have poor marriages that are falling apart, that communicate in a very intentional way. The way I see it is that communication is a magnifier.

Jeanne: [00:04:28] It's the bridge that helps us get there, right? Because we're always in communication or miscommunication, one of the two, depending on what's going on, right? So it's a… that can help us get there. Is the bridge sturdy or not, right? Depending on what we're talking about or how.

Josh: [00:04:44] Exactly.

Jeanne: [00:04:45] Unhealed trauma. And I know that's a global expression, but do you believe that we all bring our own unhealed trauma, our own unhealed issues into the relationship?

Josh: [00:05:00] You know, it's a good question. I think that people bring so much to a relationship that they don't give credit for. Even when people bring trauma to a relationship, the person isn't a package of trauma because the person dating them didn't see that. Says on their first date, I see a big package of heavy trauma that's going to make my life and their life miserable, and will you please marry me? Right? So that's not what your spouse saw on you. Even if you do have trauma and even if you have very heavy, debilitating, painful trauma, that's not what your spouse saw.

Jeanne: [00:05:37] It's such an amazing point because, you know, I think we always think that whatever it is that's troubling us, whether it's our fear, whether it's our insecurities, our trauma, we, the person who's carrying it, thinks it's front and center. And it's like on a billboard, like you just can't escape it, right? So here you are saying that they didn't see that they saw so much more. They saw the essence of who you are. They saw so much more about you than what you carry. And so it's so subjective. Like, I'm not saying the trauma is subjective, but the view of our self is subjective 100%.

Josh: [00:06:12] And the reason why is because this is true with any issue, but it's especially the case with drama. It's not perfect. There's no perfect... If the trauma was perfect, the person wouldn't be here to tell the story.

Jeanne: [00:06:27] Tell me more.

Josh: [00:06:28] There's no perfect problem. You work a lot with addictions, right?

Jeanne: [00:06:32] Correct. Yes.

Josh: [00:06:33] Right. The person who is perfectly addicted 100% has already overdosed and isn't there to meet with you anymore. Unfortunately, right? The person who wants to heal has a part of themselves that's already healthy that they want to see more of.

Jeanne: [00:06:48] I like that.

Josh: [00:06:50] And it's the same with depression. It's the same with trauma. And in my field, it's the same with marriage. The couples that have nothing to work with have either already divorced or murdered each other. And the reason why they're coming for help is because there's a part of them that is whole that they want to experience more of. And it's the same with trauma. There's a part of you that's calm, happy, healthy, full, resilient that you want to see more of. The trauma happens to be getting in the way, and we could talk about that in a second. But there is a part of you that is more healthy, and people bring that to the marriage and they don't give themselves credit for that. They don't give themselves credit for their, you know, people give themselves a lot of credit for the pain that they have. And I don't mean this to, God forbid, minimize somebody's pain. The pain is real. I'm not questioning it. I'm not saying let's bury it with a smile and all, you know, pretend everything is good. But we do need to give ourselves credit for what makes us awesome.

Jeanne: [00:07:48] You bring up such a valuable perspective, and it's made me sort of stop in my tracks. I think... I think I understand that, I just wonder, without being disrespectful to anybody who practices out there, works with couples in the therapeutic space, how many recognize that? Because they get triangulated, typically in the noise of what the couple presents when they come in? Like, you know, we've been in therapy over the years, otherwise I don't think we'd be together 45 years. It's really that simple. So it's full disclosure. And we've, I've disclosed before. However, because I think we and because we got married at 22 and 24 respectively, and we're now 67 and 69, respectively, we've grown up together. So. And there has been a therapeutic process that's helped support that. But over the years, we've been counseled by people who really haven't been helpful. So sometimes it takes time to find that therapeutic fit because an inexperienced therapist, I'm not saying that you have to be experienced, or who works a different kind of modality, can be dragged into that noise and be triangulated very quickly in that relationship. So it's very refreshing to hear you say that, but I think it's important that people understand that there is so much, I'm going to call you the hope dealer, there's so much hope that one can bring, like really to if you're even thinking about even if you're going through the motions because you think the marriage is over, I still see magic happen in those moments, right?

Josh: [00:09:27] 100%, 100%. It's so easy to get lost in the noise. And by the way, it's… people want to respect people's pain and empathize and pain deserves empathy. Pain needs empathy, but you also have to empathize with what makes people great. And you can't forget about that because like you said, that's where hope is born from. And I do think not enough clinicians see it that way. They get bogged down by the noise. And there is a careful balance between empathizing with somebody, but not defining them by the pain by which you're empathizing with. And that's where I think there's a strong distinction between going to somebody who's skilled versus somebody who's experienced. Somebody who's experienced is not necessarily a good thing. If it's not a good experience, Or if it's not experience that's going to be useful for what you want to accomplish.

Jeanne: [00:10:22] Well said.

Josh: [00:10:24] Like my wife is a teacher and she always tells her students practice makes permanent, not perfect.

Jeanne: [00:10:31] Yeah, absolutely. We're never there yet. We're never exonerated. Are we ever?

Josh: [00:10:36] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I think it's getting to the right people that are going to help you in a way. One thing that my mentor, my counseling mentor, reiterates again and again and again… and I think if if somebody is going to take away one thing from everything we've said thus far, it's to me this is just life-changing. He says, don't believe your clients, believe in your clients.

Jeanne: [00:11:04] Oh, I love that because we all spin our own narratives and subconsciously, most of us, right? We're not even conscious of what we're spinning, right? We're convincing ourselves or we're in that identity of that pain, that trauma, that story, that incident, whatever it may be for that individual. So I think it's really important that we believe in them rather than the…

Josh: [00:11:30] 100%. And that's the context versus the content. Because when we, when somebody shows up to a therapy session, a counseling session, they show up to a coach, they show up to a rabbi or a clergy of any faith and they're in pain, they're going to feed painful content.

Jeanne: [00:11:46] Ego identifies with that drama, right? Like, look at what happened to me. Look how big it is.

Josh: [00:11:51] Exactly. It's not the full story.

Jeanne: [00:11:54] Correct. Beautiful. So what led you to specialize in relationships? I'm just curious about that.

Josh: [00:12:02] That's a good question. I think it started off probably as a combination of things. Number one, probably academic interest. Back in rabbinical school, we'd study the Torah, we'd study its commentaries, we'd study its mystical perspectives and the mysticism of biblical studies in Kabbalah. It's all relationship centered, and I was fascinated how this applies not just in language and philosophical language, but how does this apply like for real? To me, it was fascinating. It was a combination of that as well as there was a time where I worked as a hospital chaplain and people used to talk to me not about their recovery, but about their relationship. It's just, it seemed like a reoccurring theme.

Jeanne: [00:12:47] Who am I being? Even in your most vulnerable moments, right? And how I treated or how can I help or love the people around me in these moments as well? Right?

Josh: [00:13:01] Exactly.

Jeanne: [00:13:02] We're really having probably a life-defining moment, whether it's through illness and injury or palliative care, right? They know that they're not going to be with us much longer. They want to transition with some peace of mind with those relationships, I would imagine.

Josh: [00:13:18] Yeah, they do. And sometimes it's a relationship with themselves. You know, a relationship with somebody else requires a good relationship with yourself. Otherwise you end up sucking off of other people and draining them.

Jeanne: [00:13:32] Still, it's like the best kept secret. But, you know, I think because they're so busy pointing at you and one of the things that we always say is 50 over 50, but it's not. It's like we have to be 100% responsible for our part in the relationship, and I don't think enough people understand that yet.

Josh: [00:13:49] No, not 100%.

Jeanne: [00:13:50] There is a 50 over 50. So that way, as long as there's 50/ 50 or even 99/1, I can still blame the other partner. I don't have to look at myself. They get fixated on that, what that person is or is not doing as compared to what is their part in it. And when I say what their part is, even through, they may not be doing something, they may not be speaking up. Even they may be just complicit in a relationship. That in itself is not being honorable in a relationship. If you're going along with something and saying that, yeah, I'm good, when you're really not. So I think people need to recognize that we have to take 100% responsibility for how we show up in our relationships. And I think that is still a best kept secret in relationships, in therapy, in the therapeutic process still, because not everybody's teaching that.

Josh: [00:14:45] Yeah, I agree. I think unfortunately not enough people know this, but how you show up is literally everything. When I work with couples and you know, they'll say, we're going through this, we're having this and this issue, this and this fight. We haven't spoken in this much time or haven't experienced intimacy in this much time. And I'll ask a question like, well, when did you feel most connected? They'll say something like, well, last week we had a couple of moments where we caught each other's eyes and had a chance to chat and feel connection. And I'll say, where were you? We were in the kitchen. I'm just giving an example. There's many of these such examples. We were in the kitchen. What time was it? It was late at night. And what was it about you that enabled yourself to experience that moment of connection? And we'll say something like it was a spontaneous, it just happened. So I'll say the opportunity presented itself. But you see, the moment you need to take responsibility for it. And I want you to think about it. How did you show up differently to be able to seize that moment of connection? Because if they've learned to take responsibility for connection, they could do it again. And they'll say, here's all the time. They'll say, I don't know. But again, I'm trained not to believe my clients, but to believe in them. They'll say, I don't know. So I'll say something like, if I were filming you and I were to show you that film of you walking into the kitchen, maybe even the hour beforehand. And I'm going to tell you to press pause at the moment. You could pinpoint an internal shift where you've decided to show up differently, at what point would you press pause? And if I'm persistent enough and I believe in them enough that they can believe in themselves. They'll think very deeply about that moment and realize that connection doesn't happen by chance.

Jeanne: [00:16:51] And a deliberate, an action. It's a decision that you're going to put down your swords and your resentments and your grudges and think the best about the other person. And it's so interesting. I'm going to even fully disclose this, but in my younger, immature, emotionally immature days, I didn't believe that. Do we believe our partners are doing their best? Now, this could be a loaded question. Subjectively, I didn't think my partner was doing his best because I’m going, okay, well, I'm doing all this therapy. I'm willing to do this. I'm a growth oriented person. I'm driven in many different ways that my husband isn't. That just makes us different. It doesn't mean that his capacity may be very different than mine for certain things. Just like my capacity for technology is very different than his right? It's just that we're different. So I used to think that when the question was asked, do people believe that people are doing their best? I went, no, of course not, because I was coming from that perspective that if I can do it, he can do it. But if I recognize that he has a different level of capacity in certain aspects in his life, just as I do as well, then I can recognize that he is doing the best he can. I think that was a valuable insight that I gleaned at some point along the way. When we don't think the person is doing the best they can, we have these resentments and grudges and it causes more distance and more war, these passive aggressive attacks between each other. And they can be when I say attacks, I mean just words. Words that hurt.

Josh: [00:18:36] Right? Or even just an attitude that hurts ourselves.

Jeanne: [00:18:40] Or disinterest or our sarcasm or whatever it may be. However it manifests because it can manifest in zillions of ways. But I think there was an important learning curve for me is, is my partner doing the best he can? And I thought he wasn't until I realized that he is.

Josh: [00:18:56] Can I ask you a bit of a vulnerable question? If you don't have to answer it, you can even edit it out if you want. But I'm curious what you saw differently in your partner once you've made a decision to see him differently.

Jeanne: [00:19:10] I recognize that he is no more me than I am no more him. I was trying to… a lot of times we try to make our partners into what we are or vice versa, right? And I recognize that he is no more me than I am him. Meaning I'm not a techno geek. I can't fix computers the way he can. He can just look at it, right?

Josh: [00:19:29] So you learn to embrace who he is, not who you want him to be.

Jeanne: [00:19:33] Correct.

Josh: [00:19:35] That's powerful.

Jeanne: [00:19:36] Can he meet me more? Of course he can meet me more. So just like I could be more interested in how to set up my technology or whatever it is that I'm doing, that things that are his domain. So he can still meet me somewhere along the line, right? I just accept.

Josh: [00:19:52] That, that's what I call completion.

Jeanne: [00:19:55] Okay. Tell me more.

Josh: [00:19:57] People are trying to marry themselves.

Jeanne: [00:19:59] Ah, that's so funny.

Josh: [00:20:01] Right? But what you've discovered is that he's something that you aren't that completes you.

Jeanne: [00:20:07] Mhm. Yes. And I honestly was floored when I thought people are doing the best they can. And the answer was, and this is research based. It wasn't me just subjectively deciding that, that people are doing the best they can. The answer is yes. I go, what? No, they're not like I was like astounded, right? That I thought… because I thought if I can do it, someone else can do it.

Josh: [00:20:28] To make that shift, and I think many couples watching this or anybody entering a relationship watching this can learn from this. To make that shift from “I'm defining you as this or as this is what you should be” to “I appreciate who you are inherently,” to make that shift requires really getting out of our own head, expanding our own limits. You made this shift of essentially being more open-minded.

Jeanne: [00:20:58] Because I recognize that we. And this comes from a 12 step. And this is one of the valuable takeaways because there's a lot I don't like about 12 step recovery, but there's a lot that has been very helpful for people, is in 12 step we learn to take responsibility for our own self. And before I think I was, before when I was younger and less mature, I would be in blaming state. I had these ideals that he should be like me. Just because I'm doing it, he should do it. Whatever, right? Like learning and growing and in the therapeutic process and healing our trauma. And at some point, I loved him more than I loved being right. Right?

Josh: [00:21:41] Wow.

Jeanne: [00:21:42] So, you know, the marriage and our family was more important to me than being right. That was a humbling moment, let's say.

Josh: [00:21:51] But wow.

Jeanne: [00:21:53] It was true. Because if I want to be right, there's an old saying, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? I can be right all the time, right?

Josh: [00:21:59] Right. Which is essentially, do you want to be married to yourself or married to your husband? And you chose your husband. Wow. That's powerful. I was working with a couple once, and he was describing a moment of a deep connection amidst many, many moments of disconnection. And I said, can you tell me why you felt most connected there? Because I guess it wasn't really about me. What was it about? It was coming from him. He said, what was it about? It was about us as a unit. And he made a similar shift of being married to himself, to realizing that he's no he's married to his spouse. And when that happens, two very different people find a connection point. Marriage is a very interesting thing. It's an anomaly. You know, the Talmud says that when God pairs couples together, it's as difficult for God to pair couples as splitting the sea. It's like that big of a miracle. And the reason is because.

Jeanne: [00:23:09] He's right in it, I guess. There's so many intricacies, right, that come with it.

Josh: [00:23:13] There's so many intricacies. The sea is one unit that was split into two. Two walls and a couple are two units, two different family backgrounds, two different sets of anatomy, of biology, of psychology, of everything. Personality, values, everything. And certain things through dating, you try to get on the same page as much as you could, but at the end of the day, you're two different people and you're expected to become one. And the only way to do that is to discover the common connection point. And the common connection point, there might be superficial connection points that are helpful, like we like to do the same things or whatever it is, but there is a connection point that will be there 100% of the time. If you've discovered it once, it will be there again. And that is identity, the happiest version of you, the most peaceful, calm version of you is going to meet the most peaceful, calm version of your spouse. The deepest part of you will meet the deepest part of your spouse and you'll be able to find connection.

Jeanne: [00:24:28] So I agree with you completely. So my question to what people may be listening or wondering is how do you reveal your most authentic self? When we typically end up in relationships being this fabricated version of who we are because we feel like, who do I need to be to be loved? Right?

Josh: [00:24:53] Right. And that's where it gets dangerous.

Jeanne: [00:24:56] Right? And so we, I believe that most of us show up in these relationships. That's why we're so nervous in the beginning. We're excited and we're giddy and all the things. But at some point we think we need to be somebody else to be loved. Because if you really, really knew me, like whether that's true or not, we have these intrinsic fears that maybe feel like if that person knew this about me, they wouldn't. I'm not saying we're lying. I'm not saying that, but I'm just saying that's the overall psyche of how it may feel. So how do we get people to really show up in their most authentic selves?

Josh: [00:25:31] I think people are doing it more often than they think. They don't catch themselves enough.

Jeanne: [00:25:35] Okay, good.

Josh: [00:25:36] I mean, look, having to put on a show so you can be loved and feel like you're editing your own life. So somebody else, you know, constantly without overthinking everything. It's not a healthy thing, right? Being comfortable with yourself is the more attractive version of one's self. It's the more peaceful version of oneself. And I can't say just do this because it's going to be different for everybody. But I think the bottom line is everybody can catch themselves doing that. They don't notice how often they're not doing it or how often they are doing it.

Jeanne: [00:26:10] I agree with you because I think I was a person in… my husband's not a threatening man at all. I probably more threatening than him because I'm a more outspoken and have a lot of opinions. However, there was a part of me I was editing and just by going along with things that I wasn't really okay with. So it was subtle. It was just quiet. I wouldn't say there were big things, right? Like so for example, you know, it can be as benign as where do you want to go for dinner? I don't know, where do you want to go? Where do you want to go? And if someone picks something, it's not really what one wants, but they go along with it. Well, you do a lifetime of that and you can build up a lot of resentment over time. So what I'm saying is, is that sometimes we go along with things because we want to keep the peace. There could be many good reasons why we do that. But what I was recognizing now, as I become wiser and more clear and more conscious on so many different levels, I was going along with things because a) yes, I wanted a peaceful life, but b) I didn't want to disrupt anything. I wanted security, so I say, we want secure attachment. So for secure attachment, that means we may go along with things. And there could be many reasons why people want secure attachment from real connection and love to financial reasons. I was editing myself until it drove me insane, actually. And so now I don't want to say I'm really outspoken. I am outspoken, but I'm the most authentic version of who I am on so many different levels. But it took me, I think, decades to really step into that.

Josh: [00:27:49] To discover that authenticity.

Jeanne: [00:27:51] And feel okay claiming it and not worried about what other people think, right, in terms of what my husband or others, for that matter.

Josh: [00:27:57] Right. And how would you say claiming that authenticity and stepping into it has enhanced your relationship?

Jeanne: [00:28:06] It's made me just a happier person on so many levels. So independently of the relationship, I would definitely a more happier, more focused, more conscious, more aware, enlightened person and in the relationship as well. And he expands it because we talk about it. But I didn't even realize, I guess what I'm trying to say, which is something that maybe people can identify with. I was hiding it from myself. I didn't even recognize this.

Josh: [00:28:34] Didn't even realize it. Yeah, I think that's the bottom line is that couples, individuals want to feel authentic and they want the relationship just to feel lighter. And people could do it. How to do it is… I would say this, and I think it's, I would say it's not easy, but it's simple.

Jeanne: [00:28:56] I like that.

Josh: [00:28:57] In other words, you have to just discover your most authentic self and learn to claim it, learn to step into it respectfully, gracefully. Not as, I'm here. Everybody get out of the way type of thing. Right? Respectfully and gracefully. But it's simple. It's hard. It could be hard. It could be hard to realize that I don't need to be something. I don't need to do something I need to be.

Jeanne: [00:29:24] I'm a powerful believer of that, that we are so busy doing that we forget how to be. And that's where our essence is. That's who we are. Our essence shines through on who we really are, right?

Josh: [00:29:37] 100%, 100%. That's happiness, by the way. That's what happiness is.

Jeanne: [00:29:44] That's true. I never thought of it that way. It’s just being, it's effortless. Right? We don't have to think about it. We don't have to manipulate, push, grind.

Josh: [00:29:54] Exactly.

Jeanne: [00:29:55] We can just…

Josh: [00:29:55] To me, that's much more helpful for a relationship than rehearsing communication skills. Communication is a distortion because what I say isn't going to reflect everything I think. Because I can't possibly do that. Words, by definition are going to limit what I'm thinking. What I'm thinking won't reflect everything I'm feeling, or what I'm feeling won't reflect my passion and drive. And if I were to just dump that all on you and overwhelm you, right? The only way I could fully shine through without distorting who I really am is through being happy.

Jeanne: [00:30:28] Yeah. And there's an energetic frequency that goes with that, that it's not you. You can feel it as well as see it. So I think that's an important component of it as well. What is the most common thing you see with couples? I'm just curious, like, do you see people come to you all the time? You're a marriage family therapist. So you see patterns and paradigms. And I think we're more alike than different. That's just me personally. What do you see as the common themes coming forward?

Josh: [00:30:56] I think the common theme, people just want to feel lighter. I asked couples all the time if your marriage was in a place where it used to be and where you want it to be, and maybe that happened tomorrow. And I said, I don't know how we're going to get there yet. I believe in you guys, I really do. I'm not rehearsing this. I really believe that if they're coming, it's because they believe in the marriage. And I owe it to them to believe in the marriage as much as they do. So I said if things were, began to get better tomorrow, maybe not even completely, what would be different? Everybody does this. We'd be joking. More laughing. Our sense of humor would shine through. I don't know if they have a good sense of humor or not, but they'd be more silly. They'd be lighter. They wouldn't be overthinking everything.

Jeanne: [00:31:43] Beautiful. And that's ultimately what we want. That's part of the joie de vivre life, right? That we feel like we're in it. We're being rather than doing, working at it.

Josh: [00:31:55] Yeah, we're in the relationship, not trying to manage it.

Jeanne: [00:32:00] Beautiful.

Josh: [00:32:01] That is simple, but not easy because it could be a process. But the process starts the moment you decide you wanted to start.

Jeanne: [00:32:13] That's so interesting. It's such an overlooked thought. I think that people think, um, you know, like when we have pain and we have grief and we have heaviness in our life. And I believe some of this is very painful. I'm not dismissing it lightly and just say, think positive or think lighter. But a lot of us really believe that everything about healing and growth has to be hard. And the same with change. Behavioural change. Sometimes behavioural change starts with a decision. It doesn't have to be dragged out. Addicted to your story about, oh, I can't do this. I'll never be any different. Whatever the storyline is for someone and yet they're attached to like the pain and the arduous work of change or growth when it really can be lighter. Can you expand on that a little bit, please?

Josh: [00:33:04] I once sat with a couple, I do my sessions on Zoom. It was a pretty tense situation. You feel the tension so much so that at first they didn't even want to be on the same camera and there can be different reasons why couples not showing up on the same camera could be logistics. It didn't seem like it was logistics at this point. You felt the tension and I started off the session like I do every session. This was a worthwhile interaction. It was time well spent. How would you know at the end of the hour what would be different? And they go into a description of what they want the marriage to look like. You can't describe something in that level of detail and that level of depth. If, number one, you don't believe it could happen going forward. And number two, if it hasn't happened in the past. So we went into an hour long discussion describing all the areas where they've experienced the ideal version of their relationship. It was overlooked. The frustration, the pain, the resentment was real. And I'm not saying just file past it. It was real and it was real. And the good moments, the better moments were just as real.

Josh: [00:34:31] And you don't, we don't have space in our brain for both realities simultaneously. So I think when people are in pain, especially when somebody's coming to counseling, we're catching them at their lowest moments, but we can't discredit their highs and isolate that from them. As much as we wouldn't want somebody to identify only with their trauma, we wouldn't want somebody to not identify with whatever the reverse of trauma would be, with who they want to be. We want people to flourish, and that version of them is real. It's very real. There's a beautiful statement from the Talmud. There's an ethical you know, there's different components of the Talmud sections of the Talmud. There's a teaching in Pirkei Avos, the ethical section of the Talmud, that says hevei dan es kol ha'adam l'chafzchos. often translated as judge every person favorably, but if you translate it literally, it doesn't say judge every person, it says kol ha'adam, judge the entire person favorably. What we often see is the version of people that they show us, but we have to look beyond that and look at the full person.

Jeanne: [00:35:43] I love that.

Josh: [00:35:44] Because that's really the message. We look at the pain, we look at what they're showing with us up front. There's context.

Jeanne: [00:35:51] But that ties back to what I said at the beginning is seeing that person as are they doing the best they possibly can, right? And I don't always think I know I didn't, so I was speaking for myself, but I wonder how many other people struggle with that too, right? In their partners. When it comes to change, what do you think are the best steps to help someone navigate the beginning of change successfully, whether it's with themselves or with a partner. I guess it's a two pronged answer because it's very different with someone else rather than yourself. But I'm just curious what your thoughts are around that.

Josh: [00:36:30] Yeah. Good question. I think people change when they have a reason to. A meaningful reason to.

Jeanne: [00:36:37] But not everybody does, right? Some people can be in a lot of pain. They're the anomaly. But there are some people where, yeah, there's this, the consequences are severe and they still can't make that change.

Josh: [00:36:49] So I would say that they do have a meaningful reason to change. They haven't been given reason to or opportunity to discover it yet. But you could literally take somebody who's in a lot of pain and they come to you and you could ask them. Well, what is most important to you? And they'll say, I don't know. I'm in so much pain and you empathize. I know you're in a lot of pain. I'm sorry for your pain, but hope is in the heart. It's there. And when people discover it, that's where change comes from. That's the leverage of change. And when they discover it, they are unstoppable. Anybody who discovers their why is unstoppable. Their real meaningful why.

Jeanne: [00:37:41] It's interesting because it's tied to values, but some people don't always know what their values are. Like they're looking to change. Like when I help people understand that if they're giving up the one thing that works for them, which is substance, let's just use substance, for example, whether it's alcohol or any drugs, whatever. It's a hard sell for them to give up something that has so much value to them.

Josh: [00:38:08] Yeah.

Jeanne: [00:38:08] But if I can paint a world where value is based on what they can get by being sober, for example.

Josh: [00:38:17] Right. What's the trade off?

Jeanne: [00:38:19] It's a really easy sell because most people can find a much longer list on the other side, but they're still concerned of how they're going to make that transition to get there. Right?

Josh: [00:38:28] Right.

Jeanne: [00:38:29] But if I'm saying you've got to give up the one thing that works for you, all you're doing is thinking about the one thing that works for you and you're craving it and you're dying for it, and you're like, oh. But when I'm introducing the idea of a value-based change, they can buy into that much quicker and they can stay with that much easier.

Josh: [00:38:48] Right?

Jeanne: [00:38:49] Trying to run away from something that they feel has value to them.

Josh: [00:38:53] Right. In other words, it's not so much running away from substance as it is running towards sobriety. And I guess the bottom line is, well, why do you want to be sober? What, if you were sober, what difference would that make in your life? What meaningful difference would that make in your life? And everybody has their why. I'll be more present with my family. I'll keep my job. I'll stay out of jail. I'll… whatever it is, everybody has their, everybody has a leverage of change. Everybody which I call hope.

Jeanne: [00:39:21] Yeah. Leverage of change. Hope. Exactly. But I call it like everybody has. It's just like everybody has a price, right? Like, what are they willing to do? X. Whatever that means.

Josh: [00:39:31] Right? Exactly. And, you know, neurologically speaking, when you discover that, your mind discovers pathways as well to get there. So realizing, well, in the world of substance as well, I've been sober in the past or I've refrained in the past, maybe for an hour, but I've refrained for that hour, which means I could do it again. It could be replicated in the world of marriage and relationships, which is the field I'm working in, where we've experienced connection, we've experienced respect, even though things weren't easy. We could do it. We've done it.

Jeanne: [00:40:13] 100%. Do you believe that relationships are spiritual assignments?

Josh: [00:40:20] I think they are. I can't tell that to couples because I can't tell them, hey, you guys deserve each other. No, I'm kidding. No, but I'll get in trouble. I think a healthy relationship, I believe, has a healthy impact on the world outside of them.

Jeanne: [00:40:38] I agree, and I see that people give up too soon in their relationships, especially in this modern day and time.

Josh: [00:40:46] That's a good question. It's hard to say. You know, the divorce rate is certainly higher than it ever was. And I think there's two things. I think there's a bit of a double-edged sword here. I think on the one hand people are giving up quickly. I think, on the other hand, people's barometer for what a healthy relationship should be is higher than it ever was.

Jeanne: [00:41:17] Why so? What do you think?

Josh: [00:41:19] So think about marriage in the days of your grandparents. They didn't have to love each other. They didn't have to feel connected. They didn't have to feel happy. She had to cook dinner. He had to pay the bills. That was it. And now we're much more, for better and for worse, it's a double edged sword. And I think this is just reality, we are much more emotionally sensitive.

Jeanne: [00:41:45] Well, much more self-indulgent as well.

Josh: [00:41:48] It's a double-edged sword, right? We have greater capacity to love somebody else. We also have greater capacity to be more selfish.

Jeanne: [00:41:58] It's interesting.

Josh: [00:41:59] It's a double-edged sword. And I think it's not just about fighting harder. And I, I don't think somebody should give up soon necessarily. But you want, you don't want to just work hard. You want to work smart.

Jeanne: [00:42:13] Right? But I bring this question up because if you look at today's modern times, for want of a better expression, we are talking about the royal family where divorces were never allowed. You know, people were exiled before divorce. We're talking about, you know, maybe in the religious communities where divorces were not allowed. And there could be debate over that. I'm not saying they are allowed, but there is aspects where it has been granted. So we're talking about the everyday culture. People just jump ship very quickly to a new partner, and I feel like that most people leave without doing… There are circumstances where maybe divorce is absolutely necessary. And it could be for safety reasons. It could be a whole bunch of reasons. But I'm talking about a culture where it's, people jump ship pretty quickly without looking at themselves and saying, what is my part in this? And look for a new mate and think that they reinvent themselves again in the relationship. And funnily enough, they turn out to be exactly the same people. So, you know, we're talking about times that are different compared to maybe 100 plus years ago where this wasn't heard of. There may be some pros for that. So I'm not saying that one should stay married to everybody. I just, for their entire life, because there are circumstances where it may be, it may be healthier, it may be safer for people to leave a marriage. I'm not saying that, but I feel that people just jump ship very quickly for the sake of convenience.

Josh: [00:43:47] I agree. In other words, divorce is not a solution. It's a last resort.

Jeanne: [00:43:57] And more so when children are involved. 100%.

Josh: [00:43:59] Yeah. Yeah. You know, like to your point, if there's a safety concern, turn off the podcast and take care of yourself ASAP.

Jeanne: [00:44:08] Mhm.

Josh: [00:44:09] But if it's not a safety concern, it's… it could be emotional pain. It could be difficult. It could be heavy. But here's the way I would put it. Bottom line, if you think there's any amount of hope, even a drop of hope, then you owe it to yourself to explore that hope.

Jeanne: [00:44:33] 100%. It's like one grain of sand in the bucket. If you can get one grain of sand in the bucket, you can get another grain of sand in the bucket. And you're talking about with that couple in particular who were ready to kill themselves on camera pretty well, well the hostility felt that way, I'm not saying that literally. But it was painful for them. But then they recognized that there was all these times, which is represented by these grains of sand, that they have had some small wins or big wins for that matter, and they add up.

Josh: [00:45:04] Yeah. But we… they do and they add up quicker than we think.

Jeanne: [00:45:08] And it's so interesting because they say that the mind is like Teflon when it comes to good experiences. It just flies off and we remember the bad experiences. That's why a lot of children don't remember good times. Oh, there was never any pictures of me until they see a photo album of them, their parents at every sporting event or something, right? Like, why is that? We just can't remember anything good. We just remember the bad. It's like the the self-righteousness of being wronged, you know what I mean? Like, what did you do to me kind of thing?

Josh: [00:45:40] Yeah, I think we're trained to be problem-solvers and to be a problem-solver, you have to identify problems. And if you're looking for problems, it's ironic here, but you miss everything that isn't a problem.

Jeanne: [00:45:53] Absolutely.

Josh: [00:45:54] The mind can't put attention on everything at the same time. Like you can't drive and be on a cell phone and you can't do everything. The mind can't do everything, which is also why it can't be in pain completely., utter pain and utter solace and peace at the same time. There was a study that took place, I think, in 2005 called the Invisible Gorilla Experiment. Have you heard of it?

Jeanne: [00:46:23] No.

Josh: [00:46:25] There's actually a book called The Invisible Gorilla, and it talks all about these mind things where the mind misses things. But there's a video on YouTube I could share with you afterward where they film a basketball court, two teams, two different coloured jerseys, and there's like six basketballs, and they tell you, for 60 seconds count how many times the team wearing the white jerseys pass the balls and you're sitting there counting. After 60 seconds, there's a prompt on the video. Did you notice the dancing gorilla? Like what? They rewind the video. It's the same exact video and you look at it again. It's the same video. It's not a replay. And you literally see a guy in a gorilla costume, a full gorilla costume, walk on the court and start dancing. And totally missed it the first time. And the reason why is because our intention was on what we were told to put our attention toward. We totally missed what was an anomaly, what was weird, what was exciting, what was different? And you could literally watch this on YouTube. Now I already told you, so you might see the gorilla.

Jeanne: [00:47:35] I have seen that. I think we'll link it in the show notes as well for people to see because.

Josh: [00:47:40] I think it's a good idea.

Jeanne: [00:47:41] It's, we're so biased, right? Like, it's like when you buy a car, right? And you suddenly have a red car or a blue car, you see them everywhere. Before you didn't see them. There wasn't even in your radar. Right? So it's very different. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Such rich juiciness here. Josh, tell me, what do you think you would like to share with our listeners today that maybe we haven't discussed? Is there anything in particular that you would like people to take away with them?

Josh: [00:48:13] Yeah, I think it's just learning to put on a fresh pair of lenses in life. I think that's what it is. That dancing gorilla is there. The better part of your marriage is there. The better part of you is there. If you want to see more of it, then you learn to notice it more and you see more of it.

Jeanne: [00:48:40] It's a decision, a choice.

Josh: [00:48:42] It's a choice. There's evidence, compelling evidence, personal evidence in everyone's life that that is a choice worth making or at least worth exploring.

Jeanne: [00:48:55] Beautiful. I think that's some great takeaways. And I don't think we often stop long enough to even think about that. We're just so in our automatic pilot. I say we hydroplane through our life where it's like we're, you know, that analogy I use is like, we're in the car driving, but we're not really in the car. Like we're our minds, we're totally somewhere else. Right? So that's how we approach our life. Most of us, we're just…

Josh: [00:49:24] 100%.

Jeanne: [00:49:25] In that to-do list and the obligations and the pressures that we subscribe to.

Josh: [00:49:31] So we go from treating life like a list of things to do. And it's hard. You know, there's financial pressure, there's the pressure of responsibilities. It's hard to be present. It really is.

Jeanne: [00:49:46] Yeah.

Josh: [00:49:47] Right? It's hard to be present. But I don't think anybody is immune from knowing what presence really is on any level, because they've had it before.

Jeanne: [00:50:03] 100%. I agree with you.

Josh: [00:50:05] You might, we might not be present all the time. There's things on the list that have to get done. I was once working with a couple that had their highs and lows, and when things were at their highs, it was like… it was like a honeymoon. And when things were at their lows, it was like this is this is hell, this is bad. So I said, tell me about one of the highs. And they shared with me about a great date that they had had and in detail. Share me with me another high they shared with me another moment that was just like, but that's not all the time. Every day we get home from work, we're tired or exhausted. There's things to do. So I said, imagine you get home and you're tired and you're exhausted, and there's things to do and you're just… but there's a part of you that could show up just a little bit the way you did to those dates. What would be different? So now they realize it doesn't have to be a high that is out of this world. But you can uplift yourself a little bit. And I guess our relationship would be a little bit better.

Jeanne: [00:51:15] Yeah. It's called momentum. And you want to build some consistency in it. Like if we can have good moments, we can have more good moments. It's like getting the sand in that bucket, right? Like how many grains of sand can we put in there? Right.

Josh: [00:51:27] Exactly. One of my rabbis back in rabbinical school used to end his lectures with the same thing every time. He said, guys, I have good news and I have bad news, and they're both the same. You can do whatever you want.

Jeanne: [00:51:41] Oh, isn't that a better way of saying things? It's like.

Josh: [00:51:46] It's autonomy.

Jeanne: [00:51:46] Yeah. How we choose to look at things? Because so many people don't. So, Josh, in closing, how can people find you?

Josh: [00:51:54] Yeah. You can find me at my website, RabbiJosh.org, you can find me on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram.

Jeanne: [00:52:03] Beautiful. I will post your links. So I have one other question for you. And that is how do you stay naturally high?

Josh: [00:52:10] How do I stay naturally high? I don't. No, I'm kidding. I know what I mean by that is I'm a human being, right? We're going to have our hour. But I think those highs that we want or that we aspire toward, it's built in. It's more like recalibrating, recalibrating ourselves.

Jeanne: [00:52:32] That’s a good way of putting it.

Josh: [00:52:35] We have run out of ammo. We gotta recharge, refuel, reload.

Jeanne: [00:52:40] Get back onto the right frequency. Right? And plug ourselves in. That's beautiful.

Josh: [00:52:45] Yeah.

Jeanne: [00:52:46] Well, I will share with our listeners all your links so people can contact you directly. And an absolute pleasure having you today as our guest.

Josh: [00:52:59] Thank you for the opportunity.

Jeanne: [00:53:00] And I just love the wisdom. And I believe there's, funny enough, my highest downloaded episodes are relationships.

Josh: [00:53:10] Oh, are they?

Jeanne: [00:53:11] Yes. So people are interested. They're interested in… we spend so much time with someone, we want it to work. So I think the takeaway message is do the work on yourself as much as… if you start to change yourself by osmosis, that person beside you will change regardless.

Josh: [00:53:30] Right.

Jeanne: [00:53:31] Stop waiting for the other person to change.

Josh: [00:53:33] Right. Exactly, exactly. It's just get… there needs to be movement. There needs to be movement. And you know, when I get a phone call from somebody, they're curious about my services, whether we go forward to work together or not. Not everybody's a good fit, right? But I'm just proud of them for picking up the phone 100%.

Jeanne: [00:53:57] That's a starting point. It's very, very important because that's the hardest step, is am I really going to do this? Like these are questions that run through that caller's mind right, at the very first time. What am I signing up for? How are things going to change? Yeah, because people.

Josh: [00:54:13] Which tells me that they're hopeful.

Jeanne: [00:54:15] 100%. Yeah. Really true. I think that's an important takeaway that by the mere aspect of them wanting to reach out, by the mere aspect of them showing up in a room, no matter how imperfect a relationship is, that signifies hope. Which means that.

Josh: [00:54:36] 100%.

Jeanne: [00:54:37] Which signifies change, right?

Josh: [00:54:39] And 100%.

Jeanne: [00:54:40] That's what we have to let people ride that wave on because that's.

Josh: [00:54:46] Exactly.

Jeanne: [00:54:47] That's incredible.

Josh: [00:54:48] And by the way, anybody listening to this podcast or any of your other podcasts, they're listening because they want something better. They're hopeful.

Jeanne: [00:54:58] True. Never thought of it.

Josh: [00:55:00] So if somebody has even a little bit of hope in whatever circumstance, I happen to work with relationships. But if it's substance abuse, if it's depression, anxiety, whatever it is, a relationship, if there is a little bit of hope because you're online Googling, how do I get this better, or ChatGPT or listening to podcasts or considering reaching out to a trusted practitioner, if there's even just a little bit of hope, explore it. That grain of sand is… can be expanded.

Jeanne: [00:55:36] Absolutely. And, you know, I want my takeaway for people who are listening today is this is just part of humanity. There's nothing wrong with any of us. We're just human. And the quicker we identify with our imperfections and our idiosyncrasies, I think the faster we can just move on and live the best possible life we can.

Josh: [00:56:00] Right. And like you said earlier, people are just trying their best.

Jeanne: [00:56:03] Absolutely. So there we go. So in closing, I am so grateful to have you on this show today. Is there anything you'd like to say?

Josh: [00:56:14] Thank you for the opportunity. And I just hope that people take their hope seriously.

Jeanne: [00:56:20] Beautiful. Take your hopes seriously. From the hope dealers. There you go.

Josh: [00:56:26] Yes, exactly.

Jeanne: [00:56:28] Okay. Until next time, stay Naturally High. Thank you for joining me for this episode of Naturally High. If this conversation resonated with you, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Please leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or reach out to me through the links in the show notes. Together, we're changing the way the world approaches mental health, addiction, and trauma. Remember to like, subscribe, and leave a rating for Naturally High on Spotify. Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen so you never miss an episode. For more inspiration and resources, follow me on Instagram @theRecovery_Concierge or visit therecoveryconcierge.com. Stay empowered, keep rising, and I'll see you in the next episode.