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Stop waiting for church to disciple you.
In this episode, Caleb Cole and Brandon Miller talk about why so many men feel stuck in their faith and what’s actually missing when it comes to real discipleship.
Discipleship isn’t a class or a program — it’s a lifestyle built through real relationships, honest conversations, and everyday moments.
If you’ve been waiting for someone else to pour into you, this episode is your wake-up call.
You are called to grow.
You are called to lead.
You are called to make disciples.
The question is… are you in the game?
This conversation will challenge you to stop sitting on the sidelines and start living out your faith in a real, practical way.
— — — — — — — — — —
In this episode, Caleb Cole and Brandon Miller talk about why so many men feel stuck in their faith and what’s actually missing when it comes to real discipleship.
Discipleship isn’t a class or a program — it’s a lifestyle built through real relationships, honest conversations, and everyday moments.
If you’ve been waiting for someone else to pour into you, this episode is your wake-up call.
You are called to grow.
You are called to lead.
You are called to make disciples.
The question is… are you in the game?
This conversation will challenge you to stop sitting on the sidelines and start living out your faith in a real, practical way.
— — — — — — — — — —
If this episode encouraged you, share it with a friend and leave a review!
🎧 Listen to Men of Faith:
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/men-of-faith/id1749620180
📲 Follow Men of Faith on Instagram:
Instagram: @menoffaith
⛪️ Project Church:
Website: https://projectchurch.com
— — — — — — — — — —
- (00:00) - Why Men Feel Disconnected
- (02:00) - What Discipleship Actually Means
- (05:30) - The Church Got This Wrong
- (08:10) - Why Relationships Matter More Than Programs
- (11:00) - Are You Being Discipled?
- (13:30) - The Mentorship Gap in Men
- (16:00) - How to Start Discipling Others
- (18:30) - Why Most Men Never Step Up
- (21:00) - You Don’t Need All the Answers
- (24:00) - Truth vs Comfort in Accountability
- (27:00) - Why Isolation Destroys Your Faith
- (31:00) - Stop Waiting and Get in the Game
Creators and Guests
Host
Caleb Cole
Caleb, a Sacramento native, grew up in a pastor’s home and is a third generation minister. At the age of 12, after one of his grandfather’s sermons, he felt a call from God to be a pastor. He consistently pursued that call throughout high school and college. Caleb attended Central Bible College in Springfield, MO where he earned a B.A. in Biblical Studies and went on to the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary where he earned an M.A. in Theological Studies.
What is Men of Faith?
Men of Faith is a Christian podcast dedicated to calling men up and not out.
Hosted by Caleb Cole, each episode equips men to follow Jesus with conviction, character, and consistency—at home, at work, and in every season of life. Through honest conversations and practical biblical wisdom, Men of Faith tackles real issues like leadership, fatherhood, identity, marriage, discipline, spiritual growth, and navigating culture without compromise. This is a podcast for men who want more than inspiration—they want transformation.
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;15;26
Caleb Cole
We got to put ourselves in environments where we can build relationships so that we can see those that are looking for connection. And more of the guys in our church, I would say, are looking for someone to just ask them to coffee, right? To to go on a bro day, you know, to to say, hey, let's grab lunch.
00;00;15;26 - 00;00;19;25
Caleb Cole
And we could talk more about faith and what God's doing in your life. It doesn't have to be weird.
00;00;19;28 - 00;00;38;19
Caleb Cole
You're listening to men of Faith, the podcast dedicated to calling men up and not out. Join me as we live a life dedicated to our God.
00;00;38;22 - 00;00;47;01
Caleb Cole
Welcome back to the men of Faith podcast. I'm your host, Caleb Cole, here with my co-host, Brandon Miller. Brandon. What up?
00;00;47;05 - 00;00;48;12
Brandon Miller
How's it going?
00;00;48;15 - 00;01;08;03
Caleb Cole
We're so glad to be with you guys. Hope you're doing well. Welcome back. We're here for another episode, and this week we're going to talk about something that is at the core of Jesus teachings. That's right. And that is making disciples. And so maybe we can start by what is a disciple, Brandon?
00;01;08;04 - 00;01;19;19
Brandon Miller
Yeah, a follower, a student, a learner, adherent, someone that has a clear relationship with whoever the teacher leader, master is that they're imitating or becoming more like.
00;01;19;22 - 00;01;21;00
Caleb Cole
That was a great off the top of your head.
00;01;21;02 - 00;01;26;02
Brandon Miller
No, no, that was fresh. That was, I've been thinking a lot about this topic and teaching on it. Yeah.
00;01;26;04 - 00;01;47;17
Caleb Cole
Well, obviously, like we see in Scripture, right? Jesus gives us the Great Commission. He tells us Matthew 28 right 18 through 20 gives the disciples, like their final command. It says, go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. And so this is the call, the mandate, like almost every church, has a part of their mission statement.
00;01;47;17 - 00;02;08;08
Caleb Cole
Somewhere built into it is to make disciples, right? I know for us it's loving people, making disciples, planting churches. That's our mission statement. We believe in planting new churches. We were a church plant. We've planted a few, helped other people plant churches, and we think that's the best way to love people and to make disciples. That's right.
00;02;08;10 - 00;02;19;26
Caleb Cole
And so ultimately, we want to be is a disciple making church. And I know that there's some that God has been burdening you with. So maybe tell a little bit about your recent trip and what God kind of put in your heart.
00;02;19;26 - 00;02;45;12
Brandon Miller
And I'll even go back a little further when I became a Christian and I'll say, truly committed. So grew up in the church, but really, like most teenagers, young adults, they just in and out of different commitments. I was a respond, you know, when the response came. But my true conversion was when I was 22. And what burned in me then was this idea that I wasn't just called to be a participant, I was called to be active and engaged.
00;02;45;12 - 00;03;11;10
Brandon Miller
And so in my walk from 22 now to almost 51, it has been, how am I participating in Matthew 2819? What am I doing? And so that journey Caleb has gone everywhere from, preaching in a pulpit, as a, as a pastor to leading children's ministry and teaching kids and everything in between. And so recently I got to go speak to a group with youth with a mission Wigwam.
00;03;11;10 - 00;03;30;12
Brandon Miller
And if you're familiar with them, global Mission. They got outposts all over. So I was down in Baja, Mexico, teaching a group of 50 leaders. And as I was, getting to, deliver leadership training, which is part of what my business does, we do it at cost for mission type, groups. And so I'm down there helping this group.
00;03;30;14 - 00;03;45;26
Brandon Miller
They have this 300 year vision, and I'd never heard of an organization talking about a 300 year vision. But this particular leader, he's been at it 40 years. He's thinking legacy. And he's like 300 years is crazy. I know, I, I literally was like.
00;03;46;03 - 00;03;47;05
Caleb Cole
Older than America.
00;03;47;05 - 00;04;07;04
Brandon Miller
I got to think about this. Like I really had to go, man, I hope that's inspired. And I'm just going to say, man, hats off to you for at least getting your people's vision beyond what we do today. That's and if that's the way he had to frame it. So the people realize disciple making goes beyond us. Yeah.
00;04;07;04 - 00;04;27;28
Brandon Miller
Like like this particular mission they build home. Some of you have done that. You've go down, you're part of something. You build a home. You have this experience. And what he shared with me is 40 years, 30,000 homes. Every single family on some level has responded to the gospel. But what they realized is that the big gap was what happens next.
00;04;28;01 - 00;04;51;14
Brandon Miller
Like if they respond to the gospel, where are we helping them plug in? Where are they growing? What does that look like? And one of the leaders said to me, he said, you know, I hate to say this, but there are other we'll call them expressions of different faiths that do better at this. Then as Christians, they follow up, they show up at your door, they're putting you in a small group, he said.
00;04;51;19 - 00;05;08;24
Brandon Miller
It's a shame that we can lead people to Christ, which is, by the way, all of our jobs are to point the way to salvation. But then what do we do with them and what happens to them? And where do they grow? And so a lot of our answer is we plug them in to church, which I say is always the right answer.
00;05;08;24 - 00;05;30;16
Brandon Miller
Yeah, that's a great answer. But what's what's our part? How do we play in this? And that's been the, recent version of this. And it plays into the young adult ministry that I'm helping to support right now, and talking to young adults about this topic who are surprisingly really agile, like, they're getting it and they're realizing, yeah, that just simply makes sense.
00;05;30;16 - 00;05;44;04
Brandon Miller
How do you tell someone, here's the way to salvation? And then they respond and then it's, well, make sure you show up every week to this group and we'll learn to teach you. Yeah, but what happens the other time? What happens to the other option for growth?
00;05;44;06 - 00;06;07;21
Caleb Cole
Yeah. I mean, in my experience, right. Discipleship has always been like a course. And I think this is where the church has got it wrong is where like go through this four week course, six week course, eight week course, whatever. And once you finish this course, you are a disciple of Christ. And the reality is like we're constantly learning, we're constantly being discipled.
00;06;07;23 - 00;06;31;29
Caleb Cole
And I think Maurice caught that taught. Right. You could sit through a course and you're going to learn like you're going to learn on Sunday mornings when you come to church with teaching. But it's not through relationship. That's right. It's it's caught through organic, watching how someone else else, what walks out their faith. And it's caught through through relationships individually as well as corporately.
00;06;31;29 - 00;06;56;29
Caleb Cole
Right. And so I just always think about Jesus. And he spent, you know, three years of his ministry, which was all his ministry was with these 12 people primarily. And he didn't walk them through a course. Right? It wasn't, hey, fill in these blanks. But he spent hours and hours with them. He brought them along. Everywhere he went.
00;06;57;01 - 00;07;09;27
Caleb Cole
They saw how he, how he ministered and prayed and and they asked, teach us how to pray. Yeah. And he said, here's a model for how you should pray. Right. And then he cast out demons, and they were with him. And, you know, they.
00;07;09;27 - 00;07;11;23
Brandon Miller
Went in and he said, and he said, you do it.
00;07;12;00 - 00;07;12;08
Caleb Cole
Yeah.
00;07;12;09 - 00;07;13;19
Brandon Miller
Now your turn.
00;07;13;21 - 00;07;39;16
Caleb Cole
And so I think that while there are courses that will help, we need to have the head knowledge. Ultimately we need to learn by doing lifestyle. We need to be in life together more. And it's hard in today's culture. I think it's hard to learn and walk through discipleship because of how full our lives are, how busy we are, how in American culture we're just go, go, go.
00;07;39;16 - 00;08;06;11
Caleb Cole
And we're so individualistic. We're not inviting anyone into our life to like, learn what it means to be a disciple. And so I think that's the challenge we face in America. And everyone's always talking about the church doesn't do a good job with discipleship, but our culture is set up to actually, hinder us really, from discipleship. And so I think there's a lot of practical ways we can go with this, but I'm just setting the stage for, I think this is where we're at right now.
00;08;06;12 - 00;08;07;07
Caleb Cole
Yeah.
00;08;07;09 - 00;08;26;23
Brandon Miller
Yeah, I would just offer this for for our men of faith that our participation as a follower of Christ is that we are to replicate, multiply, we're to grow. And I think, I think we understand that inherently, some of us who have kids, you are right. And thinking, yes, absolutely, they would be your first group that you are.
00;08;26;24 - 00;08;49;03
Brandon Miller
Disciple me because they're going to see everything. But you're you're you're on display in your life is is going to be reflected. But at the same time, if if I start with the premise that I am I'm an ambassador, I'm an evangelist, whether I have that gifting or not, and I am to be one helping to point the way, but then who am I receiving from?
00;08;49;03 - 00;09;21;04
Brandon Miller
And so I recently was on a retreat with a group of seven leaders, and we were doing some leadership training. And in the process we asked the question, well, who are you learning from? Where are you growing? And to a person? There was this pause around, well, I learn from pastors. I learn through influence. But it was are you are you in a relationship where you can go and ask questions, where you can be held accountable, where you can have an invitation to learn life, do ministry, be a part?
00;09;21;05 - 00;09;48;03
Brandon Miller
And that was interesting to watch their response to that. And given that they're young adults, I'll tell you, it's been fascinating working with this group in a ministry. They are looking for mentors, they are looking for influence. And I think we have a chance in the church today to take a step back and go, what if I if I thought about this from the perspective of, well, if I, if I have something to offer, how can I make that available to others?
00;09;48;03 - 00;10;08;16
Brandon Miller
What might that look like? And so you and I did a segment on spiritual fathers. Right. And the gentleman that I meet with regularly, I would say effectively, that is he is discipling me. Like there are parts of my learning. You know, recently I had this revelation from the Lord that I was so curious on. Man, I need another perspective on this.
00;10;08;23 - 00;10;25;21
Brandon Miller
You and I had this conversation after I had a conversation with him around. Man, I feel this tug. I feel God moving me in a direction I need someone to help me way and pray this. I have my wife, have my pastor, and I have another gentleman. And so I was able to share with the young adults that this is profoundly helpful.
00;10;25;21 - 00;10;33;13
Brandon Miller
And at this stage in my life, I'm very much still a student. As much as I still need to be part of the teaching, I need to be in both places.
00;10;33;15 - 00;10;51;27
Caleb Cole
Well, and what you're carrying is humility, right? We're never going to be a learner, a lifelong learner, if we think we know it all. Yeah. Right. And and I think a lot of the, the knock we put on young people and young adults is and maybe Gen Z, you know, right now is that they think they know it all, which there's a level of that.
00;10;51;29 - 00;11;08;02
Caleb Cole
But what you're saying is you're working with a whole houseful of young adults right now. Brandon has a Monday night. Am I allowed to say that, a Monday night young adult ministry at his house and has been packing out his house with young adults, men and girls, right? Boys and girls. A lot of women.
00;11;08;03 - 00;11;08;28
Brandon Miller
A lot of dudes.
00;11;08;28 - 00;11;29;18
Caleb Cole
Yeah. You have a lot of dudes I know. And what are they looking for? Like they're looking for spiritual leadership. They're looking for guidance. They're looking for someone to disciple them. So I actually think they do want to learn. I think they are open to it. And this generation is fatherless, right? A lot of them, almost half of them grew up without a father or at least a strong spiritual leader in their home.
00;11;29;20 - 00;11;57;28
Caleb Cole
And so we need to fill these gaps for people, young people in the church, but also we need to be committed to being lifelong disciples. That's right. Lifelong learners. Who do we have in our life, right that we're learning from, that's pouring into us? This is great that you're listening to the podcast and and a faith I mean, this is a level of discipleship that's happening because every week we're hitting or every other week we're hitting on a topic that is specific to how you're living out your faith.
00;11;57;28 - 00;12;17;03
Caleb Cole
Yeah. And that is helping to form you, right? Helping to form you spiritually, helping disciple you. You're implementing. When we give the call, it's at the end. You're implementing a lot of that. And that's great. And and I think this is supplemental, an additional and keep doing it because I think it's even help me having these conversations.
00;12;17;03 - 00;12;35;16
Caleb Cole
I always listen back to our podcasts, and I get as much from our guests and, and my co-host as, as, as probably any of you, but I also need real relationships that I'm in and to be committed to then discipling as well. And what you said is your discipline, your kids. You may not even realize this.
00;12;35;17 - 00;12;36;03
Brandon Miller
Oh, you are.
00;12;36;09 - 00;13;01;19
Caleb Cole
They are being discipled by you. You are forming them. The question is, how are you forming them? What are you forming them into? And you just start thinking about your habits, your life and what you're discipling them towards. Number one. But then number two is who else do you maybe need to have in your life that you can bring discipleship out of what you're learning and what's flowing out of your life into their life?
00;13;01;21 - 00;13;06;18
Caleb Cole
Because disciples need to make disciples. And then who am I learning from and being discipled by?
00;13;06;19 - 00;13;22;22
Brandon Miller
Yeah. You know, what's interesting is hearing from young adults that are offering freely, hey, you know, and I grew up in the Catholic Church, or I grew up going to church, but I don't know the Bible. I couldn't even start to teach this. And I know a lot of men in the church that would say, honestly, they don't know the Bible.
00;13;22;25 - 00;13;57;11
Brandon Miller
And so to teach what Jesus commanded, they'd be stuck. It would be, okay, well, where do I start? Yeah. And so with this young man that asked this question, I said, well, great, you're in the right place. Let's let's start to learn. What did Jesus command? What were his teachings? He we have four books set up for us that just walk us through things that are really important to the Lord, and I, I mentioned that because it in the early years of my development and where I'm at today in my walk, I've always thought of discipleship as part of like the the internal scoreboard of my walk.
00;13;57;11 - 00;14;17;25
Brandon Miller
Like I if I'm if I'm fighting the fight to live right and do the things that are good. I'm being the husband that we've talked about in past episodes, trying to be a good father. I also think in terms of, all right, well, you know, if if there were a divine scoreboard and I'm participating in helping people come to faith that could be inviting them to church, right?
00;14;17;28 - 00;14;49;10
Brandon Miller
That could be getting them to a place where I know the gospel will be preached. Could be a message, a crusade. But how am I participating in this activity? That every one of us is under the same calling? Every one of us is asked to do the same thing will all have a part. And so I've been really curious to ask you this as part of this episode, in the pastoral role that you have when you look at a, you know, a ministry this size, what's a practical way for men to start asking themselves, hey, what is what is my part here?
00;14;49;10 - 00;15;03;27
Brandon Miller
Because some of us are going to give to it. Some of us are going to serve to it. Some of us are going to be hands on teaching it. Do you think there's a way that we as men can be thinking about our part in the whole, in the whole process?
00;15;04;00 - 00;15;33;04
Caleb Cole
Yeah, absolutely. And I think you just hit several of the ways that you can invest right in what's happening, specifically in a local congregation, depending on, you know, what church you're, you're plugged into. But I know, I know for our church is there's been an invitation by the man to pour into other men. Yeah. And that's something that we've just recently launched, because what I saw was all these guys are like, I need someone to speak into my life, and they have no one and they don't know who to ask.
00;15;33;05 - 00;15;54;15
Caleb Cole
They don't know who to talk to. So we we need to create a system because ultimately the guys weren't doing it naturally. So we created a system, and a sign up to help guys all disciple. But also I want to be discipled and then partnering guys up. And so I'd invite you to to if you're a part of Project Church, you could join us there.
00;15;54;17 - 00;15;57;08
Caleb Cole
But I think ultimately, no matter what congregation, that's.
00;15;57;08 - 00;15;59;05
Brandon Miller
A great call out for more chefs that don't know that.
00;15;59;10 - 00;15;59;25
Caleb Cole
Yes.
00;15;59;28 - 00;16;13;14
Brandon Miller
Like, there's a very practical way practical, that we're connecting guys who can be the teachers with guys who need to be the students with the idea that your student for the season, your student, but you're quickly going to become a teacher while you're a student.
00;16;13;17 - 00;16;32;19
Caleb Cole
And what I was going to say on top of that is, but no matter what congregation you're part of, including ours, you need to show up and build relationships. And so it starts with that, right? Am I showing up? Am I am I intentionally seeking people out? Am I am I coming to the Brotherhood nights or the men's events at my church?
00;16;32;21 - 00;16;50;07
Caleb Cole
Am I am I coming to, other activities? Whether it be a prayer night, a worship night? Am I showing up on Sundays, sending my rushing out the door every time, or my lingering going, hey, let me, let me talk to a couple people, right? Because what happens out of that? Relationships are built. And then you realize, man, I need to connect with this guy.
00;16;50;14 - 00;17;12;11
Caleb Cole
This guy may actually need me to speak into their life. I know that's harder. Yeah, because it's us putting self out there. Right? But ultimately, we got to put ourselves in environments where we can build relationships so that we can see those that are looking for connection. And more of the guys in our church, I would say, are looking for someone to just ask them to coffee, right.
00;17;12;14 - 00;17;28;12
Caleb Cole
To, to go on a bro day, you know, to, to say, hey, let's grab lunch. And we could talk more about faith and what God's doing in your life. It doesn't have to be weird, and it doesn't have to be super structured either. So often it's, What's God speaking to you? What are you struggling with? Right? What do you need advice on?
00;17;28;12 - 00;17;45;07
Caleb Cole
What? What are you hearing from the Lord? And and I think out of that flows these natural, healthy relationships. And they last for time. And then often they move on. I mean, think about Jesus. Three got three years with these guys. And then he's like, hey, now you guys go. And now you need to build relationships.
00;17;45;08 - 00;17;53;21
Brandon Miller
Do you see Paul doing that? He took a guy on a trip. Yes. And then a different guy on another trip. And then he would say like, hey, go check out that guy because he was on a trip. I know he knows what he's about to do.
00;17;53;24 - 00;18;11;02
Caleb Cole
And I get like, spiritual fathers for life. I'm not against that. But I know in my life that's not been the case. It's been like seasons that men came into my life that's reporting to me for a season. And then I moved on. They moved on. And for me, the same way there's so many guys in our church I've met with for three months, six months, maybe a year.
00;18;11;02 - 00;18;14;14
Caleb Cole
And then I'm like, all right, like, this has kind of ran its course.
00;18;14;14 - 00;18;15;12
Brandon Miller
Check in when you need me.
00;18;15;19 - 00;18;20;09
Caleb Cole
Yeah. If you need me, I'm here. But we're not going to meet regularly now. Who do you need.
00;18;20;09 - 00;18;21;02
Brandon Miller
To meet with your turn.
00;18;21;06 - 00;18;33;23
Caleb Cole
To pour into someone else, right? Right. And and do some of the same things I did with you. With them. And it's not always the super structured thing. Often it's just, man, I'm learning. I'm doing life together. It's caught, not taught.
00;18;33;29 - 00;18;58;06
Brandon Miller
Yeah. Here's a good question for you, because I've heard this one come up. So there's Caleb in there, Sam and Antonio and Randy, there's the clergy and church. And for thousand 500 years at least, the church had this very strong clergy, not clergy. Laity. Right. Yeah. And there was the clergy and. Right. And it was if you were the priesthood, you that was your job.
00;18;58;07 - 00;19;17;24
Brandon Miller
Yeah. So for 500 years we've we've flipped that to say, no, we're all called. But I think some of that still happens. I think there's still that mindset of like, well, Caleb, I mean, he gets paid. That's his job to go do the disciple making. And I have to imagine because you've you've grown up in the church. You mean your family's surge?
00;19;17;24 - 00;19;31;25
Brandon Miller
Grandfather planted one of the foundation churches in our region. Yeah. So you've probably seen this. How does that work from that perspective to help us get that response? Shared responsibility as believers?
00;19;31;28 - 00;19;43;07
Caleb Cole
Well, it only works if we are sharing it. I mean, it'll work with just us pastors doing all the discipling. You're just only going to have a very few disciples, right?
00;19;43;07 - 00;19;43;18
Brandon Miller
That's right.
00;19;43;18 - 00;19;48;14
Caleb Cole
Right. Because our reach is only so far our bandwidth is only so far. And 1 to.
00;19;48;14 - 00;19;51;04
Brandon Miller
1 too many only get so deep.
00;19;51;11 - 00;20;17;03
Caleb Cole
Yes, in our time is only so much. But it's multiplication as you said. So every disciple then disciple the multiplication that happens with that. But we don't have that mindset in the church, unfortunately, and I think we've done a disservice as pastors and leaders of saying it's us and you. We do the ministry you come receive, become a disciple, and that's the end of it.
00;20;17;05 - 00;20;41;29
Caleb Cole
And and becoming a disciple has been like listening to sermons and worshiping. But it has to shift and change, especially if we're going to reach this world. That's right. To say no, you come, we prepare you. Right. That's what the Bible talks about. Like we're preparing the saints for the work of the ministry. Then you go do the work of the ministry every day in your jobs, in your relationships, in your neighborhood, in your community, in your kids sports teams.
00;20;41;29 - 00;21;02;11
Caleb Cole
Right now, I'm building those relationships. I'm talking to people about God and eventually, hopefully leading them to Christ. And then now I'm going to disciple you and and then in turn, you're going to eventually disciple others. Yeah. And so it has to be that mindset. It doesn't have to be super structured. And a lot of it is just like, man, let's just talk about the basics of what Jesus taught.
00;21;02;11 - 00;21;08;01
Caleb Cole
That's right. And that's where it starts. And how can I help you grow in what you are struggling with?
00;21;08;03 - 00;21;25;09
Brandon Miller
I was going to ask that because I feel like with the question that I was asked, well, where do I even start? How do I even what if I don't have something to give to whoever I sit down with and they ask me something out of my pay grade? And one of the guys, he's a 20 year old, and he said, well, what if I don't know?
00;21;25;09 - 00;21;45;07
Brandon Miller
I said, then you don't know. And it's okay, you know, not to not know. The Bible's filled with things that are difficult to make heads or tails of at times, and there's great mysteries in there. There's a lot to discern. And it is absolutely okay to say, let me get back to you on that donut. Let me go ask the person that's teaching me.
00;21;45;11 - 00;22;06;27
Brandon Miller
Yeah, let me pray about this. Let me go talk to let me get some advice, because some of these are complicated. And I've encouraged, you know, when guys get started because some of the parameters that can happen are is that this relationship goes from teaching to controlling and it can get it can get off base and it it can become too entangled where it's not meant for that.
00;22;07;04 - 00;22;20;09
Brandon Miller
We're all disciples by Jesus. That's the yes. That's who the the ultimate teacher leader is. So if I'm stepping in a place of teaching what he commanded, I have found it's really important to remember. It's where he commanded, not what I'm commanding.
00;22;20;11 - 00;22;41;17
Caleb Cole
I mean, we can't go to a person, a man for the end. All be all. Guide me, show me, lead me, tell me what to do. So I say yes or no to this job. No, no I get counsel. But I'm going to the Holy Spirit right in prayer. My Savior, I'm saying, God, I need you to speak to me as an individual.
00;22;41;19 - 00;22;56;26
Caleb Cole
And that's where it gets weird and entangled is when spiritual leaders become the end all, be all. You run everything by me and I give you the yay or nay, the yes or no, the go or stop, you know, and that's not our role as a disciple.
00;22;57;02 - 00;22;57;19
Brandon Miller
It's a healthy.
00;22;57;26 - 00;23;14;04
Caleb Cole
I mean, I didn't see that with Jesus at all. I saw him teaching and training and empowering and then going go. And then they go mess up and they come back and be like, we try to cast all these demons. It didn't work. He's like, that only comes about by prayer and fasting. You guys aren't prayed up fast it up.
00;23;14;06 - 00;23;47;04
Caleb Cole
So you got beat up, right? So now you learned. So pray fast. Now go out and you might be able to cast the demon out, you know. And so ultimately it's it's we are here as all of us, as disciples and disciple makers. That is the call. And who am I being discipled by? Who am I disciple? But ultimately it all flows from my connection with the Lord, with my spirit, and then I can be a better disciple and I don't have to have all the answers because there's been so many times, look, I've been doing this 20 years.
00;23;47;09 - 00;24;02;15
Caleb Cole
Guys come to me and I'll be like, dude, I don't know, because they'll be like, what should I should I take this job or that job? I don't know, I don't know, honestly. You need to talk to the Holy Spirit. And I also tell them the same thing. Every guy, I'm like, you know what I found about the Lord?
00;24;02;17 - 00;24;23;05
Caleb Cole
He gives us an incredible amount of freedom. And so many times I've had two decisions in front of me, and they were both good decisions. And God said, you decide and I'm going to actually bless whatever you decide. Yeah. Now there's times when he says yes and no, and if I go with what he said no on, I'm in disobedience, he's not going to bless us.
00;24;23;06 - 00;24;34;02
Caleb Cole
Right. But I heard that from him or one of them was a compromise that I knew was a compromise. But more of the time, it's like there's two options. They're both good options. God, what do I do? And he's like, you decide.
00;24;34;02 - 00;24;34;12
Brandon Miller
Pick.
00;24;34;18 - 00;24;50;22
Caleb Cole
Yeah. And I'm like, God, I want you to decide where he's like, no, you need to learn to make decisions for your own. And I will bless it. Right. I'm going to bless it. And so I think God gives us way more freedom than we realize. But we also have way more access to his voice than we often live like.
00;24;50;22 - 00;25;17;05
Brandon Miller
Yeah, I'm going to say this for the guys listening today that maybe you're realizing I need to be taught some things and and I'm going to ask you this question because what I have found is that if you're going to trust someone to help you learn God's Word, you do need someone who's going to tell you the truth of what it says meaning of you bring to them, hey, I'm in a relationship with my girlfriend and we're having sex, and what do I or should I, should I break up with this or that?
00;25;17;06 - 00;25;33;22
Brandon Miller
I you actually want a man of God with scripture in front of him? To tell you the truth. Yeah. I don't don't beat around the bush. Tell the truth now. Do it in love. Do it in truth. But that's I find that that's a really important, because finding someone who just agrees with your narrative may not be really helpful for you.
00;25;33;29 - 00;25;40;27
Brandon Miller
Yeah. And being aware that you really do want Jesus's words, not the brother's words, not whoever it is.
00;25;40;29 - 00;26;02;09
Caleb Cole
Yeah, yeah, we we too often want people just affirm every thought we have, even the wrong ones. And so when you do find someone in your life to speak into you, it needs to be someone that's going to keep it real with you. That's right. Right. Because while we all need to be celebrated, encouraged, there's also been just as many times in my life that I've had to get smacked a little bit or like, hey, what are you doing?
00;26;02;09 - 00;26;20;10
Caleb Cole
You know, like, you're better than that, right? You're more than that. God's called you to something higher. A higher standard and being challenged and called up, right, as we do with the men of Faith. I think I've loved these conversations. Brandon's because like, hey, we're not just we're not here to call you out and tell you you're horrible.
00;26;20;10 - 00;26;37;11
Caleb Cole
Yeah, but we are here to say there's a standard God set the bar pretty high, and he's calling us to rise to meet that bar. He doesn't lower the bar to us. Right. He's saying, come up to this bar. Are you going to meet it all the time? Nope. You're going to fall short. That's where my grace comes in.
00;26;37;13 - 00;27;00;27
Caleb Cole
But as disciples of Christ, we meet the standard the bar. We we rise as men to meet that bar. He's never going to lower the bar for us. And that's what I want our men to understand. Like we're going higher, right? We're we're we're elevating. We're leveling up. Yeah. And I don't think that we we probably speak this way enough in the church.
00;27;00;27 - 00;27;16;03
Caleb Cole
Right. And there is a lot of talk of grace and mercy and forgiveness and that's all part of the gospel. But then there's also a lot in the, in the word about holiness and standards and calling and purpose. And that means rising.
00;27;16;03 - 00;27;37;00
Brandon Miller
That's right. You know it's interesting when you think about Jesus telling them to go make disciples and the history of his people and how for so many years they couldn't do anything right. But he gave them commands and it was okay, just obey these commands and we're good. And they couldn't do it. And so then they get exiled, get brought back from exile.
00;27;37;00 - 00;27;58;03
Brandon Miller
And then it's like now they become so strict, so deeply religious that now they've swung the pendulum the other way. And it's like they're hunting people that aren't doing it right, like it's this very intense, very strict culture. And it's almost like he said, all right, if I don't give you all something to do, like to go take all this and you go, now, be a part with us.
00;27;58;06 - 00;28;17;23
Brandon Miller
Yeah. You're going to either over religious this or I'm religious over rebel with this. So I gotta get you moving forward. You can't sit on either side of that because that's what humans are going to do either. I'm just going to work so hard of being good that I'm going to judge other people when they're not, or I'm going to be dodging bullets over here trying to be rebellious and find my way back.
00;28;17;26 - 00;28;37;29
Brandon Miller
And so I'm curious for you, because I heard a saying once that a that a that a heavy truck drive straight like a truck with a load, drive straight like when you're actively in it and you're carrying part of the load, you're probably more inclined to like, yeah, some of the stuff that I'm dealing with, with sin, like, I don't got time for this, I'm engaged.
00;28;37;29 - 00;28;56;06
Brandon Miller
I'm a part of I'm, I'm in the fight, so to speak. And I'm curious from your perspective, because you've watched a lot of guys come and go and your years in ministry, do you notice that the guys that are engaging with you actively as part of this engage versus guys that aren't, do you see a difference just in how they walk, how they live, how they grow?
00;28;56;08 - 00;29;24;12
Caleb Cole
That's I love that illustration. An analogy. The heavy, heavy truck drives straight. Yeah. I mean, 100%. I would say that through the years I've seen the men who have fallen to the wayside right in their faith, fallen off the, the truck or the off the bandwagon, so to say, of of following Christ. It's those who, number one, try to do it all alone.
00;29;24;15 - 00;29;27;05
Caleb Cole
They weren't in relationship. They didn't have accountability.
00;29;27;05 - 00;29;27;26
Brandon Miller
Get picked off.
00;29;28;03 - 00;29;44;05
Caleb Cole
Yeah. And the enemy wants you isolated, right? He knows you are weakest alone. He's going to isolate you. You're going to go through something hard and you're going to go, oh, I just got to figure this out. So I'm going to stop going to church. I'm gonna stop being around brothers. I'm gonna stop reaching out. And and I don't know why.
00;29;44;05 - 00;30;04;17
Caleb Cole
The default is when we go through something tough or hard things to just isolate. But I know it's because that's the enemy's goal. And he does a pretty good job of getting you alone. And then he can pick you off one by one. Right? But that three strand cord that's not easily broken, right? Those brothers who, iron sharpens iron, right?
00;30;04;17 - 00;30;33;15
Caleb Cole
We're we're strengthened in relationship. So I seen it mostly, I would say the guys who isolate, who try to be lone Rangers do it themselves. There's a maybe an arrogance attached to it. There's a religiosity attached to it that then they can't sustain because their strength was in them and their holiness even. Yeah. And then the other group, I would say, are those guys who never fully engaged.
00;30;33;17 - 00;30;56;22
Caleb Cole
Maybe they were in relationships, but they never decided to join the mission. Right. So they were in relationships but it was all receive. I just need more. I need to get poured in to teach me more. Give me more. And it never transition to oh no, I'm here to make disciples too. And let's be real, Jesus trained this group of guys for three years.
00;30;56;25 - 00;31;13;18
Caleb Cole
He had a little larger group right in the upper room. There were 120, and then he left and it was like, you all are plan A, and there's no plan B if you don't make disciples and preach the gospel, this thing is over.
00;31;13;18 - 00;31;14;09
Brandon Miller
That's right.
00;31;14;11 - 00;31;33;17
Caleb Cole
And they changed the world. And here we are, 2000 years ago, still talking about it. And the gospel is reached further than ever before. Right? And still there's people that haven't heard. And so I would say we're still a part of that call where Jesus like your plan. And if you're going to do this, you got to be in the game, right.
00;31;33;21 - 00;31;53;28
Caleb Cole
You got to be a part of making disciples. And you're my plan. There's no plan B, and this message has to keep going. As long as humanity is on this earth, until Jesus returns. And so we gotta say, I'm tapping in and those are the guys that I think they join the mission, have greater purpose that walk faithfully.
00;31;54;00 - 00;31;55;26
Caleb Cole
And the load is it's a little heavier.
00;31;55;26 - 00;31;56;15
Brandon Miller
It it's heavy.
00;31;56;22 - 00;31;59;18
Caleb Cole
But it's also the most purposeful. And you drive.
00;31;59;18 - 00;32;25;14
Brandon Miller
Straight. That's right, that's right. It's what I've observed as well. You know, my walk of faith, just watching the difference between those who attend participate on some level with some maybe giving, maybe serving when it's convenient. Yeah. And yet I would say they're a Christian if you ask them versus others that, you know, they're, they're around good dudes, you know, you call them a nice guy.
00;32;25;20 - 00;32;50;06
Brandon Miller
But the, the very idea of engaging at the level you're talking about is a foreign thought. That's when I go to the nonprofit dinner and I give it to that's when I may, you know, the missionary comes across the state. Right. And so I've, I've wondered this like, if if you're calling yourself a Christian and you're going to walk in obedience to the scriptures, this is like and I've heard it said, it's not negotiable.
00;32;50;11 - 00;33;03;14
Brandon Miller
Yeah. This isn't a request. This is like plan A and that's it. And if you're if you're on Team Jesus, you can't not be a part of this. And is that too strong to say it that way okay.
00;33;03;17 - 00;33;06;24
Caleb Cole
I mean what was the lesson. Go make disciples.
00;33;06;27 - 00;33;07;04
Brandon Miller
Yeah.
00;33;07;04 - 00;33;08;14
Caleb Cole
Because I've you're in the game.
00;33;08;14 - 00;33;27;01
Brandon Miller
I have heard it said, and I don't know that I've said it quite this direct and I curious about you. I've heard it said if you're if you think that you are a follower, you are saved by grace through faith. You have committed to the gospel. But you're not on this. There's there's something you missed. While someone didn't teach you something.
00;33;27;03 - 00;33;49;02
Brandon Miller
Yeah, because it really is. This is vital. And we look at our world right now and we look at how the obvious Spirit of God is moving. I mean, people responding to the gospel. I heard the stat the other night that in Iran, where there is conflict as we're recording today, right. So in Iran, Christianity is the fastest growing religion.
00;33;49;02 - 00;34;14;18
Brandon Miller
They close 50,000 mosques since 2013 because people stopped attending, really. And people are responding to the gospel in droves. Wow. After after the Arab world, you're hearing this all through Africa and you think God is moving like they there are instances of of Muslims having dreams of Jesus and responding to the gospel. Here we are in the freest expression you can find anywhere.
00;34;14;18 - 00;34;32;24
Brandon Miller
Yeah, whatever heat we're going to take for being a Christian probably doesn't involve being killed for it. No thank God. But in that space of comfort, in that space of choice freedom, have we gone? Have we gotten soft? Are we are we at a place where we need to be woke up?
00;34;33;01 - 00;34;56;15
Caleb Cole
Yeah. I mean, I think in America in the freedom we have like, absolutely. But I think right now there's a return happening in the church I'm seeing in our church, there's an authentic expression taking place where people are like, I'm I'm done sitting on the sidelines. I really love Jesus. And I'm going to do this. I'm I live this, I'm going to share this.
00;34;56;17 - 00;35;15;22
Caleb Cole
I'm going to engage in this. And that's what I think consumer Christianity, that kind of ruled America for the last 20 years, these last couple of years, coming out of Covid, it's dying and getting close to being dead. Amen. And the comfortable Christianity of yeah, I say I'm a Christian. I go to church on Sundays and that's the end of it.
00;35;15;25 - 00;35;41;00
Caleb Cole
Don't really talk about it. It doesn't really affect the rest of my life. That time is over, because I think that even where our country is going, like it's not going to allow us to stay that way, we can't stay comfortable like we're we're confronted with the reality of culture and the gospel conflicting every single day. Yeah. And so what it's doing is people are now doubling down, like, I'm in on this and I'm going to share the truth.
00;35;41;03 - 00;36;06;28
Caleb Cole
Does that mean it's all easy? And now it does. Does that mean that everything's clear all the time? No. Like there's some things that are a little ambiguous and some confusing expressions right now, you know, in Christianity and evangelicalism. But I would just say this, what I'm seeing is a hunger for authentic, real relationship with Jesus and a return to be a disciple and be a disciple.
00;36;07;03 - 00;36;24;04
Caleb Cole
And so I'm actually super encouraged because I think what we're talking about is where our church is going and where the church is going. Amen. And I can't wait to see what happens in the next ten years, because I think the expression and the harvest is going to be massive, especially even with young people, which God's using you to disciple, right now.
00;36;24;06 - 00;36;30;04
Caleb Cole
And and this may be the next great awakening, you know, that's happening in America. We're already seeing the early stages of it.
00;36;30;04 - 00;36;52;04
Brandon Miller
It's starting. I mean, the the level of interest. And I, I would say I've been amazed, young people who are responding week after week showing up. We've we've had kids drive from two hours away to come because they said, hey, I, we need community and I'm looking for truth and I'm interested. I have questions and I grew up in the church or I've never heard of this.
00;36;52;07 - 00;37;06;21
Brandon Miller
And I want to know because it seems like I need to know. I'm drawn to this, but then I'm watching. On the other extreme, I recently had, catch up dinner with a guy that was a client from back in 2008, and he reaches out out of the blue. Hey, man, I found this card. I wanted to call you.
00;37;06;24 - 00;37;20;09
Brandon Miller
So we go have a bite to eat. And I say to the guy, because he, I knew he had some really out there beliefs and he's talking about beliefs unprompted, just to go, hey, man, I've heard your beliefs, so I just need you to know I really want to go to heaven. And I really would like you to join me.
00;37;20;09 - 00;37;40;22
Brandon Miller
So I'm going to give you something. And it's this card I had that it's just five facts about God. Men like some called the Roman road. Like, here's how you become a Christian and here's how you pray for salvation. And then the church address is on the bottom of it. And so I give this to the dude. I'm like, I just think about it because everything you're talking about, you might be completely off.
00;37;40;22 - 00;37;58;01
Brandon Miller
And let me tell you, this was some past life, like out there stuff this guy is into. Yeah. And no judgment. I wasn't mean to him. This wasn't abrupt, rude. And at the end of the dinner, he goes, you always make me think, but you don't judge me. And I said, well, I'm glad read that. I get a text an hour later.
00;37;58;01 - 00;38;11;09
Brandon Miller
What service are you going to on Sunday? And I said, I'll be at the ten about. All right, I'll be there. So he shows up here 10:00 on a Sunday. I walk up and greet him and I chose not to. I don't want to make it weird. He's like, I don't know if I'm going to make it the whole time.
00;38;11;12 - 00;38;31;21
Brandon Miller
I said. I said, I get that brother. Like, this is a whole different thing. He stuck around for the whole service. He's sitting out on one of the rocking chairs at the end of it, just like like like just pondering. We end up having a chat. The guys like there was a lot to think about. I don't know if I'll be back, but I'm I'm taken it and I walked away from that going, wow.
00;38;31;24 - 00;38;54;07
Brandon Miller
Like the the level that it took for that guy to show up the opportunity. I get to go get another dinner with him and have a have a follow up conversation. This is at a level I haven't seen that kind of response from people who are really dug in. Yeah, but the idea of eternity and the idea of what's at stake in the idea is that if you're not following Christ, you will be eternally separated from him.
00;38;54;10 - 00;39;00;26
Brandon Miller
Yeah, that reality is starting to be talked about more directly, and people are realizing what's at stake and they're opening to it.
00;39;00;27 - 00;39;07;09
Caleb Cole
Well, and don't you think if we really believe this and really love people, we have to tell them.
00;39;07;09 - 00;39;08;14
Brandon Miller
We have to tell them.
00;39;08;14 - 00;39;29;10
Caleb Cole
Like, that's where I've gotten to, like the older I get, obviously, I do this for a living, right? Like, I preach the gospel every Sunday and I actually get paid to do this, right? This is like my vocation. But recently I started working in another job. I just made it public on Instagram. I'm working in the corporate world for the first time in my life, 20 years of pastoral ministry.
00;39;29;10 - 00;39;42;27
Caleb Cole
And now suddenly I'm in the corporate world and I am in environments now, every day with people that aren't believers. I'm having conversations and I can't tell you already how many times I've got to share the gospel.
00;39;42;27 - 00;39;43;22
Brandon Miller
That's right.
00;39;43;25 - 00;40;04;28
Caleb Cole
And I am unashamedly, unabashedly telling them. And I literally every time I say the reason, I'm going to tell you the truth, because it somehow comes, I don't know how it keeps coming up. I'm like, I just think people are really spiritual right now and they're open. They're like, tell me more. And every time I say, look, the reason I'm going to tell you what the Bible says and the truth is because I love you.
00;40;04;29 - 00;40;05;21
Brandon Miller
Yeah.
00;40;05;24 - 00;40;26;19
Caleb Cole
And because God loves you. Yeah. And it'd be really easy for me to just kind of skirt by this and be like, oh, yes. Yeah, I'm a pastor, too, or. Yeah, like I'm a Christian and not go any deeper. But the reason I'm going to tell you is because your eternity is on the line and you're going to stand before God, and I care about that, right?
00;40;26;21 - 00;40;43;17
Caleb Cole
This isn't about me. I know where I'm going. I feel very confident. And this is could be a whole other one where we talk about dying. Well, maybe at some point we did one on what happens after you die. But, I think at some point, dying. Well, as we do have a fear of death as Americans.
00;40;43;17 - 00;41;05;16
Caleb Cole
Yeah, we're terrified of it. But that topic is something people care about. That's where the future, eternity. What's after, what comes after life. And so I've already had opportunity to just share the gospel. And I'm going to do it because I'm like, I don't know, the next time I'll see them, I may never see them again. I don't know if they're going to make it home today.
00;41;05;18 - 00;41;25;11
Caleb Cole
We have to have that urgency. Yeah, as disciple makers. And I'm not trying to be morbid here. They might die, you know, I don't want any of you to feel that way either. I'm speaking life over you. You're going to live a long life. I believe I'm gonna live till I'm like, 80, 85. That's my goal. But ultimately, like, if I love people and I truly believe this, I have to share it.
00;41;25;11 - 00;41;28;24
Caleb Cole
That's what being a disciple maker does. Right, I do this.
00;41;28;28 - 00;41;55;10
Brandon Miller
That's right. Paulo. Yeah. You know what I'm going to say. Brothers on, on the way that we talked about this topic today and what Caleb just landed on. My call up is to get in the game on, on either side or both to really consider where are you drawing fun to be taught what Jesus commanded. And do you have a relationship with someone that you trust who can hold you accountable?
00;41;55;13 - 00;42;19;27
Brandon Miller
Who you learn from there is learn with. That's great, but who do you learn from? Who can you bring questions to? Who can you meet with? Even on a monthly basis too? It's good to bounce off of get in that game, and if you're there and it's time for you to be that for someone else, by all means, there are many looking for it, and you might be that one that helps to raise the next one.
00;42;20;02 - 00;42;22;27
Brandon Miller
And it's disciples making disciples who make disciples.
00;42;22;29 - 00;42;42;17
Caleb Cole
I love that my call up is going to be actually maybe uncomfortable for some of you. We need that. First and foremost, I'm just going to have a call up that you would share your faith with someone this week, and it doesn't have to be a whole layout of the gospel in your way. I don't know how to share it, man.
00;42;42;17 - 00;42;57;14
Caleb Cole
There's going to be conversation. I just believe I'm gonna speak it over you. There's gonna be a conversation that happens, and they open the door and you're going to say, hey, can I tell you about, like, my faith and just tell them your story? That's how we share the gospel. This is what Jesus has done for me. This is how he changed me.
00;42;57;14 - 00;43;11;12
Caleb Cole
This is how he saved me. You know, what do you think about that? And you can open up that conversation. And if they have more questions, you can tell them more about Jesus. But, hey, I just believe there's going to be conversations this week and you're going to be able to share your faith. This is you getting in the game.
00;43;11;12 - 00;43;33;22
Caleb Cole
This is you being a disciple maker. As we then in turn, get someone in our life to disciple us. So hey, love you guys. Brandon. Always a pleasure. MOFs. Man of faith. If you got something out of this, share it with a friend. You can always watch us on YouTube, listen on our podcast on iTunes or Spotify, and, be sure to tap into our Instagram.
00;43;33;25 - 00;43;51;11
Caleb Cole
Meta faith pod. We're also on Tik Tok now. Metaphase pod as well. I just looked at Mike. Mike's got us. And if you're on TikTok, you can go there, but be sure to share this, like it and, spread the word. So. Hey, love you guys. Thanks for being with us. Thank you. See you next time.
00;43;51;12 - 00;43;52;13
Caleb Cole
Grace and peace. Peace.