How Can Neomodernism Help Us Understand Life? with Joseph Meyer

PJ's guest on this episode is professor and podcaster Joseph Meyer. Together, they discuss neomodernism and how it helps us understand modern life.

Show Notes

Show notes:

TOPICS:

- the rise of postmodernism and where it goes too far

- how neomodernism plays out in our myths and stories

- diagnosing some contemporary ways of thinking with neomodern tools

LINKS:

- Joe’s podcast, The Neutral Ground, can be heard here or anywhere podcasts are available.

What is Chasing Leviathan?

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

[pj]: right and uh. welcome to chasing the Viathan, I'm here with Joe Mayer, Uh, host of

[pj]: Neutral Grounds Podcast and professor in the writing and critical thinking department at

[pj]: the University of Albany, Uh, Joe. welcome on the show. Glad to have you,

[joe_meyer]: thank you, Pj. It's a pleasure.

[pj]: and uh today we're going to be covering what is neo modernism. And why should we care?

[pj]: So If you want to go ahead and give us a little bit about yourself how you got

[pj]: interested in this topic and give us a little background so that our audience can

[pj]: understand,

[pj]: uh, how all us you know? why should we listen to you about it? I mean, Obviously, if

[pj]: you're a professor in this area, that's generally pretty good credentials, but uh,

[pj]: certainly we could start there. So, uh, think you ever? uh, come on the show and

[pj]: appreciate having you, Joe?

[joe_meyer]: Absolutely. yeah, so actually, really? where it begins for me is I had a moment

[joe_meyer]: in in a theater movie theater, kind

[pj]: hm,

[joe_meyer]: of watching.

[joe_meyer]: I forgot which which Marvel Cinematic movie it was and might have even just been

[joe_meyer]: Captain America, which was also

[pj]: hm,

[joe_meyer]: the first date with my wife, which was awesome as well, but I'mm sitting there

[joe_meyer]: watching Captain America and

[joe_meyer]: wow, I'm really. I'm really di in the movie. I'm enjoying it a lot and there's

[pj]: hm,

[joe_meyer]: nothing particularly complex about it. It's very

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: straightforward, good versus evil. He iss about as

[pj]: y,

[joe_meyer]: wholesome as you can get.

[joe_meyer]: And that just sat awkwardly with me

[joe_meyer]: and I wait. How are they doing this And I just have this moment. I look around

[joe_meyer]: the theater and I'm seeing people on the edge of their seats and there's nothing

[joe_meyer]: particularly again complex happening, but people are so engaged and that got me

[joe_meyer]: thinking

[joe_meyer]: we're selling

[joe_meyer]: a non complex story here of Good versus Evil, And then I thought back to Iron Man

[joe_meyer]: and I thought You know what. That's kind of the same thing. If you really break

[joe_meyer]: it down, he seems complex, but he's really not. He wants to

[pj]: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: make his name right again. He's got his. The

[pj]: yep.

[joe_meyer]: stark name is on the missiles, all that stuff and he just wants to make that name

[joe_meyer]: good again

[pj]: yes,

[joe_meyer]: and I went back to thinking about Okay,

[joe_meyer]: so postmodnism There's no way you can understand neomoronism without

[joe_meyer]: understanding. postmornism and postmonenism tends to make people want to tear

[joe_meyer]: their hair out because it's it. by its very nature it doesn't want to be defined

[joe_meyer]: And

[pj]: right.

[joe_meyer]: that's one of the main reasons why people are like, I hate this. I hate it so

[joe_meyer]: much

[pj]: Have you

[joe_meyer]: and

[pj]: ever seen that Simpsons clip?

[joe_meyer]: which one

[pj]: The one where it's like um, Oh, this, uh, this art. This art piece is pomo. It's like

[pj]: post modern. He'. like. Well, what post

[joe_meyer]: what

[pj]: modern was? That means like a weird for the sake of being weird. like Oh, okay, we get

[pj]: it and that's

[joe_meyer]: you know, and in some ways

[pj]: I like. I think.

[pj]: Go ahead.

[joe_meyer]: Yeah, some truth in that there is. there's a. There is a little bit of truth in

[joe_meyer]: especially toward the tail end of postmoernism, absolutely

[pj]: Yes,

[joe_meyer]: bad art. bad art

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: is that kind of postmornism. No, it's true. I've look. I'm going to be honest. I

[joe_meyer]: think people will agree. Sometimes you walk into a modern art museum, you look at

[joe_meyer]: something and you go. I'm sorry, that's not good.

[pj]: I

[joe_meyer]: it's not

[pj]: saw a piece of burlap sack nailed to a wall in the Chicago. Literally. it's all it was.

[pj]: It wasn't even a full bulapsack. I felt cheated. Um. it was just it's just a shred of it

[pj]: just kneeled to the wall and it's like has its own plaque. It's next to all this other

[pj]: stuff and it's interesting because I've seen post modern art that I really enjoy

[joe_meyer]: yes.

[pj]: right Like I know. It's like uh, in the same area there was um, uh, and I can't remember

[pj]: the name of it, but it was something about like the destruction of innocence. If

[joe_meyer]: Mhm.

[pj]: so, and uh, they had taken discarded children's toys. made a human figure sewn out of

[pj]: it. Uh, I don't know if you're familiar with this, and uh, and with its entrails ripped

[pj]: out, and they were like toys acting like intestines being ripped out of this figure And

[pj]: it was

[joe_meyer]: there you go.

[pj]: I, the the picture of ruined innocence Was. I mean, not that I necessarily like the

[pj]: experience of seeing it, but it was very. It was very

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: impactful like there's a lot of thought put into it. It made sense,

[joe_meyer]: absolutely

[pj]: but I'm just like I, the the idea of like, Well, I'm an insider in the art culture, so I

[pj]: know that if I put up a blank canvas or a a burlap sack on a wall, it's going to work. I

[pj]: mean, anyway. sorry. continue. like, uh, this is very fascinating to me.

[joe_meyer]: no. No, no, you're right on and you're giving. You're giving a great example

[joe_meyer]: there, too. right because

[joe_meyer]: great art. we, and I'll I'll have fun conversations with my students about this

[joe_meyer]: right, like I used

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: to do the thing where I would put the word Th. on the board and I would say Okay,

[joe_meyer]: everyone, this is my poem. Is it good?

[joe_meyer]: Literally? just the word Th,

[joe_meyer]: and some but a quarter of the class would look at me like What are you trying to

[joe_meyer]: pull? and the other

[pj]: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: ones? I, I'd have another quarter. Who would be like? If that's what you want it

[joe_meyer]: to be? then Yes, it's art. It's good art, and I would go. No,

[joe_meyer]: No, it's not. And and then they would push back and and you love this about

[joe_meyer]: teaching. They push back

[pj]: yes, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: and and they say. Well, who are you to say? What's good art? A valid question.

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: And what I say is

[pj]: well, I mean, besides the fact that you made the poem, but

[pj]: yeah, sorry, go ahead

[joe_meyer]: it's my poem

[joe_meyer]: and I would of course ham it up for fun,

[pj]: and I don't like it.

[joe_meyer]: you know,

[pj]: Yes, yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: And and and what I try to tell them was look good. Art has to speak to the human

[joe_meyer]: condition in some capacity period,

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: it has to, and so like the example that you

[pj]: hm.

[joe_meyer]: gave what made it post modern Is it took something that was precious that's

[joe_meyer]: supposed to be precious, like children's toys,

[joe_meyer]: and subverted that dominant narrative That a toy is fun and innocent and ruined

[joe_meyer]: it, And that's postmodnism. Postmoernism is skeepticism. If you, if you wanted to

[pj]: yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: find postmoernism in one wordkeepticism, it's skeptical of grand narratives, any

[joe_meyer]: sort of story that can encompass

[joe_meyer]: the way of being the truth, Capital ta. If you' allow me ne, I kind of hate doing

[joe_meyer]: that, but that capital te truth thing,

[pj]: I mean, it's kind

[joe_meyer]: and

[pj]: of how they talk about it. so yeah, that's fair.

[joe_meyer]: yeah, I mean truth on a large scale. it's just skeptical of all of it, And

[pj]: Yes,

[joe_meyer]: what I try to do even on on the podcast in the classroom is to say, Okay, the

[joe_meyer]: tail end of postmodnism it is problematic. It had to die. It did,

[joe_meyer]: but don't hate

[joe_meyer]: all of postmornism, because in the earlier parts of postmoernism after World War

[joe_meyer]: Two,

[joe_meyer]: it was very important to create the space for civil rights.

[joe_meyer]: You. You can only get that major civil rights push that we have in America

[joe_meyer]: because

[joe_meyer]: you did disrupt the dominant narrative that was going on and said, But what if we

[joe_meyer]: allowed these people to have a space as well? Hey, that's postmoernism

[joe_meyer]: And

[pj]: yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: so when people say postmoernism is all bad, I, I gotta push back a little bit,

[joe_meyer]: but it did need to die

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: because it was getting out of hand.

[pj]: it's yeah. for sure. I, um. It's been interesting to see Um people using uh data in ways

[pj]: that I don't think you would appreciate, and I think it's interesting to see people push

[pj]: back against data and one of the things that people and think this is just a full

[pj]: misunderstanding of who dada is is they don't know his history

[pj]: Like, I mean, he's an Algerian Jew writing in the sixties, trying to come to grips. I

[pj]: think it's like a late fifties. he starts writing and he's trying to come to grips with

[pj]: what happened under the Nazis. Like that makes deconstruction a whole lot different than

[pj]: A. either. the like, whatever the conservative view of things would be, it's like Oh,

[pj]: you can't you know you're just deconstructing all society and it's like. I mean, I'm

[pj]: pretty sure he had a right to deconstruct like what he was dealing with as an Algerian

[pj]: Jew. If you know that that history, and then uh, and then of course the you have like a

[pj]: a more liberal view of things where it's just like we're going to deconstruct all the

[pj]: things. Everything. Everything is bad if it has any kind of view and it's just like I.

[pj]: Yeah, anyways, it's very interesting to see how how that has been.

[pj]: uh, uh. who's I just? oh, recor recor up. I don't know if you're familiar with Um.

[pj]: That's who. I did a lot of my work in Godmman recor philosophical hermudics, and he

[joe_meyer]: Mhm, Yeahm,

[pj]: said, it's very important to go through the what do he calls the who he calls the

[pj]: masters of suspicion,

[joe_meyer]: Mhm,

[pj]: And that's how we get beyond Um, masking ourselves. It's important to be authentic and

[pj]: genuine, and you people do tell themselves a lot of lies, So for him I don't know if

[pj]: you're familiar with him at all. Um,

[joe_meyer]: not not a hunt, not a

[pj]: y.

[joe_meyer]: a whole lot, but yes, a little bit from like grad school.

[pj]: yeah, so his, uh, hi, the foremasters of suspicion, Um, are Sigmund Freud, uh,

[pj]: Friedrich, ncha, um,

[pj]: derida and Fuko, and uh yeah, which a very like, kind of a classic list And

[joe_meyer]: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

[pj]: it's just like there's a lot to. Yeah, uh, I think it was Fuko. I know, I remember

[pj]: because he wrote a lot about Freud, but it's just

[joe_meyer]: Mhm,

[pj]: like. I mean. That's where it starts right. You have to have this subconscious, which is

[pj]: really something that we don't realize how it's so embedded our culture. But okay Im.

[pj]: I'm getting excited. I want to hear more about neomodanism. I'm sorry. I see. I love

[joe_meyer]: that. That's great. No, No, it's great. It's great stuff. because

[pj]: this topic.

[joe_meyer]: we. We're still on pace for setting the stage for how we get here. because the,

[joe_meyer]: because you do need to keep it kind of in the middle here again, don't hate it.

[joe_meyer]: but at the same time, understand that it has a usefulness, and at its greatest

[joe_meyer]: that kind of deconstruction can sometimes allow you to see things that are

[joe_meyer]: embedded in a system or an infrastructure that could potentially become

[joe_meyer]: tyrannical.

[pj]: Yes.

[joe_meyer]: That's its greatest kind of all of force here but you, but again you see on the

[joe_meyer]: opposite end too that if you deconstruct everything, you have no stability

[joe_meyer]: and then you lose all sorts of values and that's

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: where it guides into the latter half of. I would say, Going into the late

[joe_meyer]: nineties, early two thousands,

[joe_meyer]: we start to lose that stability and we begin to mock everything. You start to see

[joe_meyer]: things being mocked all over the place. Right, nothing is safe. Okay,

[pj]: y. yep.

[joe_meyer]: there's a certain freedom in that

[joe_meyer]: right, but at the same time it doesn't allow the human being to have any kind of

[joe_meyer]: sacred space from which they can just build their own narrative, and and hold

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: that narrative as something important, something sacred to themselves.

[joe_meyer]: Without the feeling. like everything that I do is unstable. Everything that I

[joe_meyer]: see, Everything that I try to experience is up for mockery, And that's

[joe_meyer]: ▁ultimately. What kills postmodernism In my opinion,

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: So in comes the superhero narrative to quite literally save the day in the late

[joe_meyer]: nineties. You get the the rise of the superhero cartoons, mids mid nineties

[joe_meyer]: Batman, ▁x men, You get the ▁x Men movies early on, and then you cruise right

[joe_meyer]: into the Marvel Cinematic Universe,

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: and the smartest thing that Marvel did

[joe_meyer]: was it, read the room perfectly, Whether

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: they knew it or not. They somehow figured out. You know what we're done with

[joe_meyer]: making complex hero as the foreg or the The scaffold for our universe. We're

[joe_meyer]: going to

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: go pure,

[joe_meyer]: uh, pure narrative. We want people to feel like you can believe in this story.

[joe_meyer]: You can believe in the hero. you can believe in right and wrong, And so they

[pj]: yep.

[joe_meyer]: put really Iron Man and Captain America as their two sides, and they build the

[joe_meyer]: sandbox with some complexity in the middle. for other characters to be a little

[joe_meyer]: more complex.

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: But at the end of of phase three, at the end with Infinity War and End game,

[joe_meyer]: who were the two characters that people were crying for the most, Captain America

[joe_meyer]: and Tony Stark, Iron Man? And

[pj]: oh yeah,

[joe_meyer]: it's because

[joe_meyer]: we felt like they were taking

[joe_meyer]: good and evil and they were taking sacredness and narrative seriously. There's no

[joe_meyer]: complexity and skeepticism He has. I mean, Steve Rogers. At the end, it's just a

[joe_meyer]: dance.

[joe_meyer]: That's it. We're given a dance.

[pj]: yeah, yeah, he gets everything he. Yes, he

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: gets the girl.

[pj]: Um, even if they had to do time travel to do it and yeah, I like. Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: yeah,

[pj]: yeah, a hundred percent. It's a very uh, simple story at its core. I mean, people

[joe_meyer]: absolutely

[pj]: can get blinded by the time travel stuff, but that's really. I mean. it's not handled

[pj]: very critically. You know, I mean it's like it. It's a very simple story.

[joe_meyer]: absolutely, and we aid it up. because

[pj]: Sandels is a very sorry. Go ahead.

[joe_meyer]: no, no, no, no, please come in withthannos yet. No, inter. you can totally

[pj]: Yeah, Taels is a very boring V. not not boring. but he's a very

[joe_meyer]: interrupt. Let' do it.

[pj]: uh.

[pj]: I mean, simple bad guy. I mean, even you like you'. Like he's not, I mean, and that's

[pj]: one of the biggest criticisms of Marvel, right, uh, I don't know if you've ever seen any

[pj]: of those Youtube sketches about it Like Marl villain's like you have Iron Man And then

[pj]: you have Warmonger. who is a bad Iron Man. You know. it's like it's like you have anunt

[pj]: man and then you have was man. And who' a bad, Aun,

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: mad. And it's just like uh, Thos is basically I,

[pj]: who looks at Theyre. They're uh saying. Oh, there's not enough food and says you know

[pj]: what I'm going to do instead of like spending my life trying to make more food, Cause he

[pj]: gets so much he could make more food'. Like I'm just going

[joe_meyer]: yes, yes,

[pj]: to eliminate half the universe. It's like

[pj]: you just made somebody who' not even really plausible, but he's easy to hate. I mean,

[pj]: who is the one person? This is why I mean, And this is. It's parodi to the point where

[pj]: it becomes un ironic again. Who's the bad guy that always shows up be cause we haven't

[pj]: been able to create a good bad guy for a long time. Whos? who's the one bad guy that

[pj]: always shows up Nazis? You can always shoot a Nazi and feel good about it And it's just

[pj]: like, And

[joe_meyer]: yeah,

[pj]: that's that's pre promorn, That's what it's about.

[joe_meyer]: that is the idea of we. We want to eliminate all complexity,

[joe_meyer]: Bring bring in something that we can rally around a reassured narrative. because

[pj]: Yes,

[joe_meyer]: again, postmorn postmodnism at its core, destabilizes narratives, and

[pj]: Yes,

[joe_meyer]: in doing so

[pj]: that's the point.

[joe_meyer]: the exactly the human being

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: is left in in sort of a space of wandering a little bit.

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: And they were just brilliant about saying, Let's all rally around something a

[joe_meyer]: symbol that we can hate. And it's funny you brought up Fanos, Because

[joe_meyer]: the Infinity War Fannos, Just those two movies, Even Infinity War and End Game.

[joe_meyer]: He's

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: slightly more complex and Infinity War simply because he has an ethos of of an

[joe_meyer]: idea. We disagree with it completely. But the idea of

[pj]: Yes's a good point.

[pj]: Yes's a good point.

[pj]: Yes's a good point.

[joe_meyer]: I am going to. You're going to love me because I am going to assert order on

[joe_meyer]: chaos,

[joe_meyer]: and that is what the tyrannical dictator always does. They sell. the idea,

[joe_meyer]: I am going to assert order and chaos. See what you know, Stalin, and what Hitler

[joe_meyer]: are able to do. You know, even was leaning to a degree they promiise order,

[joe_meyer]: and it, it registers as complexity and infinity were when in reality it's the

[joe_meyer]: simplest tale of the the benevolent Dictator in hiding,

[pj]: Well,

[joe_meyer]: and then,

[pj]: and I mean I don't want to. Oh so go.

[joe_meyer]: oh no, no, just to summ it up. and then you get to end game where he even gives

[joe_meyer]: up all that and there's nothing behind. He just wants to destroy the world. I

[joe_meyer]: mean, he even gets simpler

[joe_meyer]: in end

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: game, so that it allows the opposite story, the good storyories to be even

[joe_meyer]: simpler. It's

[pj]: yes,

[joe_meyer]: just good versus evil. that's it.

[pj]: yeah,

[pj]: yeah, I mean, I'm just trying to think of any other story where the good guy

[pj]: Um

[pj]: could talk about. I hit the head this time. you know talking aboutquin Thor is like so

[pj]: happy that he cut off his head and like there's a little bit of a twinge, but everyone's

[pj]: like As us. It's fine. It's like he

[joe_meyer]: Yeah.

[pj]: just walked in on this retired guy and like got off his head And

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: and it's because he

[pj]: but it's all part of doing that.

[joe_meyer]: absolutely right. And and Thor. I, I will say I did have.

[joe_meyer]: Those were my two hiccup characters in there was I. I was not a huge fan of of

[joe_meyer]: like Fatthor,

[joe_meyer]: I was a fan of his. No, No, here's why. Because what they did is, they made it

[joe_meyer]: post modern

[joe_meyer]: instead of taking it somewhat seriously. The fact that, I mean, let's be honest,

[joe_meyer]: P. ▁j, if you and me were Thor in that moment and we did what he did and

[joe_meyer]: didn't go for the head, and

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: instead wanted that moment to be able to talk to him, because that's ego

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: and that makes sense right. it does. It makes sense. He has every right to feel

[joe_meyer]: as though he has some blame there. And could you

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: imagine harrying the loss of half the world because of your ego,

[joe_meyer]: imagine harrying the loss of half the world because of your ego,

[pj]: half the universe

[joe_meyer]: You would. I mean you would, literally, you would go into a state of depression.

[joe_meyer]: That no one has seen, and so

[pj]: right, right,

[joe_meyer]: I like the idea,

[joe_meyer]: but where they make it post modern is what do they do? They mock it.

[pj]: Yeah, and

[pj]: and the way and the, And you know, they mock it because they don't treat his return with

[pj]: any respect,

[joe_meyer]: Yes,

[pj]: which

[joe_meyer]: yeah,

[pj]: also really bothered me. I was like. I would have been fine even with them mocking it if

[pj]: he had had to work to get back into shape.

[joe_meyer]: yes,

[pj]: but when he just like was like, Oh, you got hit by lightning bulls like. Ohd, none of it

[pj]: mattered. anyways.

[joe_meyer]: yeah,

[pj]: really did lose like it lost. They lost some stakes there. I mean they made up for it

[pj]: just because they built it over what? forty? I don't even know how many movies there.

[pj]: I've onlys seen half of them. but

[joe_meyer]: yeah. there's a. There's a whole bunch of em. But

[pj]: yeah, there' so many.

[joe_meyer]: but that this, the scene with his mother. it was beautiful and it could have been

[joe_meyer]: even better

[joe_meyer]: if if they would have just allowed him in that moment

[joe_meyer]: to to shake off and lose his anxiety. Really in that moment and I know life

[joe_meyer]: doesn't happen that way. I know it, but that's again. that's not its purpose. Its

[joe_meyer]: purpose isn't to say, you know that this is our reality. Its only purpose is to

[joe_meyer]: say this is who we need to try to become

[joe_meyer]: is

[pj]: Hm.

[joe_meyer]: honorable,

[joe_meyer]: believing and right and wrong, striving to do the best that you can, and nowhere

[joe_meyer]: is that laid out better than in the the movie Civil War, where you have Iron Man

[joe_meyer]: versus Captain America

[joe_meyer]: and that here's where I was nuerting out like crazy. I couldn't tell if it was

[joe_meyer]: the seven year old me or the, the, The teacher in college. I couldn't tell, but

[joe_meyer]: I'm sitting there watching this and I'm going. Oh my God, this is neo modern

[joe_meyer]: belief and narrative in Captain America versus post modern instability in Iron

[joe_meyer]: Man, Right because Iron

[pj]: Hm,

[joe_meyer]: Man gets shaken and suddenly he feels like I want to share responsibility with

[joe_meyer]: others. I, I want to create

[pj]: Mhm,

[joe_meyer]: more sightes of infrastructure where we can say I, I no longer trust my ability

[joe_meyer]: to discern what is right, And when I watch that movie, I thought in the middle.

[joe_meyer]: Oh wow, I wonder where you're going to go with this. Are you going to take the

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: easy way out and say that they're both right and they didn't Captain America wins

[joe_meyer]: out in the end, And that

[pj]: hm,

[joe_meyer]: was Marvel's way of saying. We know what's going on. Kind of. We want you to

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: continue to believe in the superhero that you can

[pj]: yes,

[joe_meyer]: be good as well in doing. so

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: you can discern right from wrong. That's a pretty

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: powerful statement P. ▁j, to say

[pj]: oh, it's incredible.

[joe_meyer]: to people you can do that.

[pj]: Yeah, and it's where I mean I. ▁ultimately. It would be the death of philosophy if we

[pj]: just continue to post modernism, Like at the end of the day.

[pj]: If you don't believe you have an obligation to be a better person, then why practice

[pj]: philosophy? Why

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: practice critical thinking at all? Why not just sit and stare at an endless array of

[pj]: dank meams on Youtube. It doesn't matter how you spend your time. You know what I mean.

[pj]: Like,

[joe_meyer]: yes, you're right, you're right,

[pj]: Yeah, and it's just like you. You see this mindless entertainment, which is in itself,

[pj]: it tends to be very post modern

[joe_meyer]: Mhm,

[pj]: right E. I don't know if that. if that's making sense at all, it's just like I. I find

[pj]: myself slipping into that where it's just uh, when I'm tired and I like I want to break.

[pj]: I just watch stuff that I'm just like it. It doesn't do anything

[joe_meyer]: Yes,

[pj]: right. it doesn't it? It doesn't make me think. I just laugh and then I forget about it

[pj]: and

[joe_meyer]: yeah,

[pj]: that's kind of. I mean, even when you look at, Yeah, anyway, sorry that I think that

[joe_meyer]: no, no, you're a hundred percent right. Nothing passes the time

[pj]: that makes total sense.

[joe_meyer]: better than post modern Uh media. In some ways, because

[joe_meyer]: you, you go into it,

[joe_meyer]: kind of expecting that instability and you leave with nothing that's stable. And

[joe_meyer]: the E. the best example I can give is is Family Guy

[pj]: Oh, my goodness. Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: Is is the perfect post modern kind of Uh of show

[joe_meyer]: Because

[joe_meyer]: they never really connect episodes in any meaningful way, So

[pj]: no,

[joe_meyer]: you, you go in, and then at the end they even mock. At the very end they have

[joe_meyer]: their little family moment where they say, kind of like what we've learned and

[joe_meyer]: they always mock it by saying like we've learned nothing. That's post modern

[joe_meyer]: because there's nothing to believe in

[pj]: yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean,

[joe_meyer]: And yeah,

[pj]: you can compare that to other sitcoms where at the end like there's always like. I mean,

[pj]: compare that and this is just a brutal like comparison. Like Leave it to beaver Like you

[pj]: know what. I mean.

[joe_meyer]: yes, yes,

[pj]: like you like you get to the end and it's like the family unit matters.

[joe_meyer]: Mhm.

[pj]: It's like Holy crap. Why didt you just hit me over the head with a crow bar And

[joe_meyer]: yeah,

[pj]: like it's like as compare, and, but it's something to believe in And I mean, if there's

[pj]: one thing that family guy, like family Guy doesn't believe in anything like, it's very

[pj]: clear. they will mock anything you know. you

[joe_meyer]: yep,

[pj]: mentioned that earlier. Um, it's almost interesting. I'm curious. What do you think

[pj]: about South Park Because I feel like South Park will mock just about anything, But they

[pj]: actually do seem to care about some things. they'll say no. That seems wrong, like

[joe_meyer]: yeah,

[pj]: they'll actually like have take moral stances on stuff, which is kind of astonishing. I

[pj]: mean, Jeff Baso says a. uh, I don't know if you've ever seen like as the head of an evil

[pj]: empire, but

[joe_meyer]: yes,

[pj]: um, you know like,

[joe_meyer]: yeah, yeah, absolutely South Park. I mean. Uh, after the original Jonathan Swift,

[joe_meyer]: you know Sa sadist South Park is

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: is right after that the next best one because people you know, I'll sometimes

[joe_meyer]: I'll talk about this in class. People often timees confuse like satire and

[joe_meyer]: parody, and people will say, like Seth Mcfarlaland with family guys up a

[joe_meyer]: satarist. and no, he's not actually at all like he's really not, and it doesn't

[joe_meyer]: take away his. Uh, he's incredibly talented. Mc. Fararlan. he is, but he is not

[joe_meyer]: good at satire when he does try, and that's because satire requires you have to

[joe_meyer]: say something substantial about society and you

[pj]: yes, yes, yes,

[joe_meyer]: have to say it in a ridiculous way. That also is logical

[joe_meyer]: and that's a very tough thing to do, and South Park figured it out early on.

[joe_meyer]: We. We can say things in an incredible way, ridiculous way, but people will

[joe_meyer]: understand what we're talking about, and sometimes the one that I'll I'll talk

[joe_meyer]: about in class is the Brittney Spears won from way back when where

[joe_meyer]: people at the time when she she was not doing well in terms of her mental health,

[pj]: yeah, yes,

[joe_meyer]: and she did some concert and the next day people were writing articles about her

[joe_meyer]: and they were calling her fat, and it was just like What are you doing?

[joe_meyer]: Where have we? Where do we come to with this? This is ridiculous you. See, you

[joe_meyer]: can clearly see her struggling like literally.

[joe_meyer]: she's struggling and people are

[pj]: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: writing articles about this And then South Park came out with an episode about it

[pj]: Mhm,

[joe_meyer]: and they, they made it. It was quite violent. and their whole point was

[joe_meyer]: we create these moments for these young women when we sacrifice them to

[joe_meyer]: entertainment.

[joe_meyer]: And and it was an incredibly powerful message at the time and

[joe_meyer]: not post modern. See, they always kind of stayed a bit. Well, no, I should say it

[joe_meyer]: this way

[joe_meyer]: they figured out how to make postmornism meaningful,

[joe_meyer]: and

[pj]: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: that is maybe the biggest wizardry that they could ever do. Because you would you

[joe_meyer]: would put that kind of ridiculousness. you know, towly. for example, a towel that

[joe_meyer]: talks. That's a kind of postmorn ridiculousness that destabilizes any. s kind of

[joe_meyer]: dominant narrative that we have about towels. My towels don't talk. Okay,

[joe_meyer]: But then they added meaning to it

[joe_meyer]: and and really they will go down as probably, I mean the greatest saterists that

[joe_meyer]: will see. Uh, it's certainly in the T V medium at the time, but they, they did.

[joe_meyer]: They found a way to kind of stay

[joe_meyer]: both inside and outside of postmornism. Really was quite quite amazing.

[pj]: yeah, yeah, yeah. so I end. So we've talked a lot about how destabilizes those main

[pj]: narratives. I

[joe_meyer]: Mhm.

[pj]: think you mentioned. There are four main tenants of neomoernism and they kind of

[pj]: correspond in some ways with postmosm. Do you mind? I think we were at a good spot now

[pj]: where

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: you could kind of outline that.

[joe_meyer]: let's start getting technical. So I, I see three three

[joe_meyer]: primary traits so far in kind of early to mid neomodernism. The first is looking

[joe_meyer]: for narrative reassurance,

[joe_meyer]: because we destabilized so much narrative both personally and collectively. I

[joe_meyer]: think people are really desperately looking for some kind of way to reassure

[joe_meyer]: narrative stability and gain stability, and

[joe_meyer]: I think this also has a lot to do with with the.

[joe_meyer]: I guess, let me let me say it. this way

[joe_meyer]: I find a lot of the contentiousness that we see in society day.

[joe_meyer]: People kind of say that it's group think, and I would only slightly differ with

[joe_meyer]: that in that I actually think it's groups of individuals

[joe_meyer]: who are just kind of huddled together because they want to protect and they want

[joe_meyer]: to create their personal narratives. But as a species, of course, we do better

[joe_meyer]: when we're with others, we feel more

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: protection. And so

[joe_meyer]: I came to that kind of idea when I kept hearing people say, Uh, when someone

[joe_meyer]: would push back against their group. Let's say they would say. Well, I don't

[joe_meyer]: believe that

[joe_meyer]: and you know people kind of laugh that off and say, Well, you know that's

[joe_meyer]: ridiculous and you're being hypocritical, but I didn't see it that way. I kind of

[joe_meyer]: thought. I think they mean it,

[joe_meyer]: and if they do mean it, then what does that say? It says that there are a group

[joe_meyer]: of individuals who are just kind of huddled together to protect something, and

[joe_meyer]: they get enough connection with each other that they feel like they can share

[joe_meyer]: that kind of um protection with each other if you will. And and that got me

[joe_meyer]: thinking about.

[joe_meyer]: Well, I'll I'll connect that with the third one in a second.

[pj]: hm, hm,

[joe_meyer]: I'll get to that the second one that I see a lot of. Is this this ▁urge, or need

[joe_meyer]: to transcend the body?

[joe_meyer]: And so you might have noticed

[joe_meyer]: a big uptick in people talking about psychedelics, people talking about

[joe_meyer]: meditation,

[joe_meyer]: even prayer

[joe_meyer]: and

[joe_meyer]: I. I started looking around and I started researching. Why would this show up

[joe_meyer]: now? Because this is nothing new to us. As a species. We've had these access to

[joe_meyer]: these things for thousands of years.

[joe_meyer]: Why would we want to transcend the body now in some way And I think it's because

[joe_meyer]: we need to feel again like that. There is something greater than us

[joe_meyer]: when you, when you, that tail end of postmornism, when there is nothing that's

[joe_meyer]: sacred,

[joe_meyer]: you lose a lot of the power of what it means to be a human being,

[pj]: yes,

[joe_meyer]: and you start to think If this is really all I am is this mortal form.

[joe_meyer]: I'm sorry. that's not enough.

[joe_meyer]: It's not enough. I mean you can. for me. I don't know about you. I'll say

[joe_meyer]: I, I'm perfectly willing to accept that I wake up in the morning because of

[joe_meyer]: science,

[joe_meyer]: but I get up because of the humanities, and because of something that is greater

[joe_meyer]: than me,

[joe_meyer]: or I would just

[pj]: yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: stay in bed.

[pj]: I like. I mean. Yeah, for all girls going to get wiped out by a passing galaxy Anyways,

[pj]: you know, like intersecting, you know, just like you know, Um, I, I myself, A am a

[pj]: devout Christian. I've learned to say that instead of conservative christian, because

[pj]: conserved Christian has a lot of political overtones that

[joe_meyer]: There you go.

[pj]: I'm not really. You know. it's

[joe_meyer]: What did I just say?

[pj]: like which I know that I can know. not.

[joe_meyer]: There Go And

[pj]: I like. I am a devout christian.

[joe_meyer]: you see yourself probably as an individual Right, You see yourself

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: as an individual, but a line with that side Because you find more of a

[joe_meyer]: connection. Maybe there right?

[pj]: Yeah, well, I find myself very much connected to other Christians. But what

[joe_meyer]: Sure,

[pj]: I have found is that Christianity has been corupted. Um, and I think this comes from the

[pj]: the huddling effect right? I mean, when people look at like, if you go through the

[pj]: republican and democratic platforms,

[pj]: these these ideals don't line up. You know what? I mean like, I mean,

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: some of them can, and I mean you could hold all those at the same time, but

[joe_meyer]: sure,

[pj]: you don't have to, But people feel like they need to, And that's you. You understand

[pj]: what I'm saying, like it's like. I mean, y.

[joe_meyer]: I do. I do. absolutely. Yeah, and and I, I mean, I'm I'm Catholic and

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: I, I find this connects. also, maybe even with the the. Uh, the second point of

[joe_meyer]: needing to transcend to a degree because

[joe_meyer]: it seem we do so much talking to day right and we hear so much information all

[joe_meyer]: the time

[joe_meyer]: that

[pj]: hm,

[joe_meyer]: it does kind of make us feel

[joe_meyer]: small and nothing, and so having for me, at least having a God that I, I am

[joe_meyer]: accountable to

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: people would say that that must feel oppressive, but it's not for me.

[pj]: no, no,

[joe_meyer]: It's like okay. There's that a priori good that I have to reach for and I ain't

[joe_meyer]: gonna reach it. I'm not go to reach it all

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: the time. Really, not, you know. I make no mis. They know. I will

[joe_meyer]: openly admit that it exactly, but

[pj]: and that's okay, because he's on your side.

[pj]: Yes, yes,

[joe_meyer]: it keeps. it keeps me constantly trying to transcend

[joe_meyer]: what I'm

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: here on earth doing to transcend to

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: something better.

[joe_meyer]: And and that, the last thing that I see is people really and thisconnects with. I

[joe_meyer]: think the other two people I think really need or are yearning to create some

[joe_meyer]: kind of sacred space for themselves.

[pj]: Mhm.

[joe_meyer]: where again it's outside that realm of mockery, and I

[pj]: Mhm.

[joe_meyer]: know people will say

[joe_meyer]: You know you. you can't close off spaces like that. Everything should be open for

[joe_meyer]: interpretation and mockery. That's not really what I'm arguing. What what I'm

[joe_meyer]: arguing for here

[joe_meyer]: is that people want it.

[joe_meyer]: That's not the same thing as saying that they're gonna get it. I'm

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: saying that one of the reasons why we're constantly arguing with each other as

[joe_meyer]: well to day is because we're constantly stepping into each other's sacred spaces

[joe_meyer]: and trying to, in some ways tearing it down even if we don't realize we are, And

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: this isn't like you're defending something I don't know. Like your favorite

[joe_meyer]: color. If you're trying to create something that's sacred to you, whether it's

[joe_meyer]: family, your religion, um, your work or something.

[joe_meyer]: you're go to defend that with your soul. It's like an attack on your soul, and so

[joe_meyer]: people are lashing out because it's not just that you're saying. Oh, how

[joe_meyer]: ridiculous you like the colored orange? Like Who cares? Yeah, Nobody's arguing

[joe_meyer]: over orange. We're arguing over

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: things that are very personal.

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: Now there are a lot of negatives to these, though, too. I

[pj]: hm.

[joe_meyer]: see those three character traits as being incredibly important for us to move

[joe_meyer]: forward in neomonism,

[joe_meyer]: but you also see the negatives right away if I build up my narrative and I

[joe_meyer]: reassure my narrative, and I have that, the more I build it up, the more I can

[joe_meyer]: potentially leave you out of it.

[joe_meyer]: And so we end up being further apart from each other, and that's not good,

[joe_meyer]: either. So you have to build up your narrative in a way that always allows for

[joe_meyer]: connection with the larger humanity. And that religion sort of does all three of

[joe_meyer]: these things. By the way, religion tends to do automatically for us. Right

[pj]: right.

[joe_meyer]: if you're a Christian, you can't be just sitting in your corner And that's

[pj]: yeah.

[joe_meyer]: it. you got to go out. You got to interact with the world, and you have to do

[pj]: Well, and that's interesting to.

[joe_meyer]: good.

[joe_meyer]: No, no, go ahead, please.

[pj]: Yeah. I was just to say it's interesting to see how the the certain forms of Christian

[pj]: are dying out and the more traditional forms are growing again because people

[joe_meyer]: And why is that

[pj]: are looking for that reassurance because

[joe_meyer]: there you go?

[pj]: they're looking for that reassurance. Yeah,

[pj]: no, a hundred percent, No, this is all makes sense to me. even, um. it's interesting. I.

[joe_meyer]: there you go. Yeah,

[pj]: I live in Florida, Central Florida, Uh, not quite rural, but pretty close.

[joe_meyer]: Mhm.

[pj]: So

[pj]: like

[pj]: the most of the people I talk to are worried about the left and the left are going to

[pj]: take over the country and all this kind of stuff. And I'm like when you look at history,

[pj]: we really I. I'm I. You know, real concerns. Okay, I can understand. you know, like just

[pj]: because like people didn't think Rome was going to fall until it fell right, like

[joe_meyer]: yeah,

[pj]: everyone thought it was just. and one of the things, uh, you know, even we were talking

[pj]: about it. We are so willing to destabilize things because we took our stability for

[pj]: granted. We

[joe_meyer]: yes,

[pj]: don't realize what a blessing stability can be

[joe_meyer]: Mhm.

[pj]: right. Um, but I'm like you do realize that human nature is very reactive. And uh, just

[pj]: because there's this narrative over here that doesn't seem to include you, doesn't mean

[pj]: that we just automatically run over to this narrative

[joe_meyer]: yes,

[pj]: Because that's where we're saying. I mean I'm talking to. Uh. I'm talking to this twenty

[pj]: year old guy and he is not into it, but he loves. Uh. He loves mees, right and

[joe_meyer]: Mhm.

[pj]: he's seeing something like he's like. At first I thought they're being ironic, but I

[pj]: think I'm actually running into memes that are like are unronically Alr,

[joe_meyer]: hm.

[pj]: you know, and it's just like uh, you know people like I like unronically saying, you

[pj]: know, maybe Hitler was right after all. Maybe we

[joe_meyer]: oh, jeez,

[pj]: need this kind of nationalism you know, and it's just like I. I got to be honest, like

[pj]: I, I don't think that the left are going to take over the country. I dont. I don't think

[pj]: I think the country's too big for that, but when you talk about it doesn't take when you

[pj]: have that kind of mindset. It doesn't take a lot of people to scare everybody else in

[pj]: submission. That's what the night of the night of knives was.

[joe_meyer]: hm,

[pj]: you know, The crystal knocked with, you know,

[joe_meyer]: right

[pj]: and I just like that actually scares me more. The idea of a bunch of people just showing

[pj]: up

[joe_meyer]: you. you have to.

[pj]: if that makes sense, if you have a reaction. Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: No, No it. it does you. you have to. because. I. Yeah, my one of my main points

[joe_meyer]: here in in the research that I'm trying to do, and I'm still beginning stages of

[joe_meyer]: it to a

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: degree. Is

[joe_meyer]: we take for granted the poll of history?

[joe_meyer]: We? we tend to think

[pj]: yes,

[joe_meyer]: that history is just sort of this, Um, I don't know. in invisible thing, that

[joe_meyer]: just keeps moving like next to us. but it doesn't really

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: matter. No. no, no,

[joe_meyer]: we are products of historical movements and temperaments that happen,

[joe_meyer]: and one of the temperaments now is that we are being lured into extreme sides and

[joe_meyer]: I don't care

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: it, left or right. I don't care.

[pj]: right, right,

[joe_meyer]: You have to be careful of of the allurement, the temptation to go to the

[joe_meyer]: extremes, because it's there

[pj]: yes,

[joe_meyer]: on both sides you could

[pj]: exactly exactly.

[joe_meyer]: go into into these sides here, and something else I've been thinking about. I'll

[joe_meyer]: test it out with you here.

[joe_meyer]: I was thinking about.

[pj]: no pressure. Okay,

[joe_meyer]: yeaha, no, no, it's fine. this is. this is truly

[joe_meyer]: like the or organic thinking here, so let's let's

[pj]: let no dog got a good idea.

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: see if it works. Um, I was thinking about the the extreme sides again in general,

[joe_meyer]: and I thought you know when you're in the extremes,

[joe_meyer]: you feel like you're connected and everything makes sense and they're speaking

[joe_meyer]: for you, And you think this is very different than the opposing side, very

[joe_meyer]: different. But I was reading Um. Chantal Muf's book on the Uh, the Paradox of

[joe_meyer]: Democracy and she makes this point

[joe_meyer]: that you need antagonism for democracy to work well. Actually you need that

[joe_meyer]: antagonistic element and she said, You have

[joe_meyer]: you want a pluralistic society right with multiple sites of power to be able to

[joe_meyer]: choose from and to be able to have conversations with each other. And I thought

[joe_meyer]: this makes sense. it does. But when you speak to the average person, the average

[joe_meyer]: person will tell you it kind of feels like they're all the same

[joe_meyer]: in the end like there's just weird paradox of having uniquely different sides of

[joe_meyer]: like left and right. and yet people saying yeah, But it kind of feels around

[joe_meyer]: election time like they're very much the same in the end, And that got me

[joe_meyer]: thinking If you think about it when you're when you're locally in these groups,

[joe_meyer]: it feels very different from the other side, but when you pull back almost like a

[joe_meyer]: Google map. Where you just keep hitting the scroll wheel,

[joe_meyer]: the two end up blending together

[joe_meyer]: not because of their local beliefs, but because of the tactics they use.

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: That's why it feels the same to us and it feels like at times that we don't have

[joe_meyer]: a pluralistic society because both are willing to use ▁x y and ▁z.

[joe_meyer]: Why? Because it works and because it's been

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: working for thousands of years,

[joe_meyer]: and so every so often

[joe_meyer]: people will have this emergent feeling of almost like an out of body experience.

[joe_meyer]: Wait a second. Is this any different

[joe_meyer]: and that's when I would say that's your moment to get out of the extremes.

[joe_meyer]: because if you

[pj]: hm,

[joe_meyer]: get out of the extreme side, you're no longer beholding to just that viewpoint. I

[joe_meyer]: can take a good idea from left from right. I don't care where a good idea comes

[joe_meyer]: from. I just

[pj]: right.

[joe_meyer]: want a good idea

[joe_meyer]: and

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: that gives me a tremendous amount of peace.

[pj]: instead of feeling the need to defend everything that your side is doing,

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: I, I, um. well when we see that, even with both sides being it it, it really centers

[pj]: around.

[pj]: Um,

[pj]: I love that. Uh, I believe they, the the band's names, Living color, uh, cult of

[pj]: personality, I don't know if you're familiar with that song, Um, great song, you know.

[pj]: they,

[pj]: they. They just name names and then they just say it's the cult of personality. So it's

[pj]: like Uhj, uh, John F, K N Kennedy, Um, and Mussolini, like the cult of Personality, and

[pj]: of course, like they're like in the seventies, which I'm sure didn't go over well. But

[pj]: or

[joe_meyer]: right, yes,

[pj]: maybe the eighties, I can't like. It's like um, like, uh, uh, They're talking about like

[pj]: uh, Reagan and Stalin, like it's you. You see this in our politics right now. It doesn't

[pj]: matter

[pj]: at all what the person on your side does. It's very, uh. It goes back to. I think it's

[pj]: Marsha Mcleun talking about. We go back to tribalism. You know. I mean, uh, Joe Bydon,

[pj]: falling asleep in a political meeting. Whatever you want to believe about Joe Bydon,

[pj]: like that shouldn't happen right. The

[joe_meyer]: no, Yes,

[pj]: rest of the United States shouldn't take a nap.

[joe_meyer]: definitely not

[pj]: but everyone's like. Well, he's just so tired. you know, and the other

[joe_meyer]: No.

[pj]: sides like see sleepy Joe, And it's just it becomes. it doesn't matter who is right.

[pj]: What matters is it's our man or it's their man.

[joe_meyer]: And it's the yes, and it's the You're speaking to the reducbility of it that is

[joe_meyer]: like. Okay. So now we'll talk about. you know, Joe Bide in this way before that.

[joe_meyer]: We were talking about Donald Trump this way before that. we were talking about

[joe_meyer]: President Obama this way before that, Like, at a certain point

[joe_meyer]: you start to realize. Uh, I think we were talking about this before we even

[joe_meyer]: started really. But you start to realize what's the utility of this? Really?

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: Because this is always gonna be that way. If you want to play that rhetorical

[joe_meyer]: game,

[joe_meyer]: you can do it forever forever. There's always going to be something negative to

[joe_meyer]: say about the any human being. Always, and at the end of the day

[joe_meyer]: I think what. What are we really trying to? Because? the other thing that I see a

[joe_meyer]: lot of is I don't know about you, but I have found myself sometimes when I'm

[joe_meyer]: speaking to someone

[joe_meyer]: all of a sudden in the middle of the conversation I realize. Oh, wait. this is a

[joe_meyer]: debate. Oh, and I'm way behind. Oh, I didn't even know I was like. Oh boy, I'm

[joe_meyer]: losing Like and I, here I am stupid me. I'm thinking we're having a conversation

[joe_meyer]: and then all of a sudden I'm getting bombarded with like and this, And what about

[joe_meyer]: that? And what about this? and I'm going I don't. What do you want me to do with

[joe_meyer]: that? It's their observations. Great.

[joe_meyer]: wonderful. what. what do you want me to do with it? Yeah, I. I. What's the

[pj]: yeah, yeah. It's like. No, these are facts.

[joe_meyer]: utility at the end of the day? In some

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: ways, I know again, we were talking about this before. Philosophy is great to

[joe_meyer]: read, because it should expand you who you are, and it should in some way

[joe_meyer]: make you reflect on how you can be a better version of yourself. But

[joe_meyer]: you have to first put in the work to realize

[joe_meyer]: who is a better version of yourself

[joe_meyer]: or you have nothing

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: to compare it to.

[joe_meyer]: And that's the the allurement

[pj]: you have to have principles to live by.

[joe_meyer]: Absolutely you have to have. And this is that reassurance of narrative. You're

[joe_meyer]: literally building the narrative of who do I want to be? What's a good

[pj]: Yeah, Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: person? like I always throw that. I haven't. my students don't know this yet.

[joe_meyer]: They'll know it eventually, but I always. at a certain point when we talk about

[joe_meyer]: building criteria, I'll just start asking them. You know Billy. Are you a good

[joe_meyer]: person and they look at me like. Ah, what? what kind of question is that? And

[joe_meyer]: it's all to lead them to the idea of how can you

[joe_meyer]: know that the other person is not a good person or that you are that you aren't.

[joe_meyer]: If you've never actually reflected on what a good person is,

[joe_meyer]: you have no way to know that

[joe_meyer]: And so you

[pj]: and this is where.

[joe_meyer]: do the work first. Yeah, you do the work first by building up that narrative of

[joe_meyer]: yourself,

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: and then you can start to make certain adjustments. And if you, if you um, ingest

[joe_meyer]: information, whether it be from, like a new source or philosophy or another

[joe_meyer]: person,

[joe_meyer]: then you can put that up against your criteria for a good person. And if it does

[joe_meyer]: not make you a better person, a better version of yourself, get rid of it.

[joe_meyer]: Let it go. You do not have to. Despite what people say, Sometimes the suffering

[joe_meyer]: people who just liked to suffer with that, you are not behold into all pieces of

[joe_meyer]: knowledge. you're not.

[pj]: you can't be.

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: you will never be on mission. You don't have the capacity and you don't have the time.

[joe_meyer]: No, and I wouldn't want to be. Ah, how miserable would that be to know

[joe_meyer]: everything? because the Greeks understood way back when with um, oh, gosh, I'm

[joe_meyer]: going to get the name wrong. It wasn't Cassandra. I don't think who always spoke

[joe_meyer]: the truth. And and the curse was that no one would ever believe her. That's very

[pj]: I think that's Cassandra.

[joe_meyer]: true. That's what would happen. That's what would happen to today. The same exact

[joe_meyer]: thing you'd be going around saying you're going to make a huge mistake in the

[joe_meyer]: next ten minutes, and they will look at you like yet. shut up.

[joe_meyer]: What do you do with that? How do you live?

[pj]: Oh, man, being omnisent without being omnipotent. D. it just doesn't. That's that's

[pj]: would be the worst. Um,

[joe_meyer]: Yes,

[pj]: So something you know, you're talking about constructing your own identity and I agree

[pj]: that's uh, something that we have to do, but I think it's some. It's a new problem. It,

[joe_meyer]: Mhm,

[pj]: really, and now I, I think is, and that's the result of postmoneniism. That's why it's

[pj]: neomornism right. Because in the twelve hundreds, and it's really not that long ago.

[pj]: Like as much as like we still are feeling effects of those times. We

[joe_meyer]: absolutely,

[pj]: don't realize it. you know, like when you look at the twelve hundreds, you didn't ask.

[pj]: What does it mean to be a good person

[pj]: and and have multiple different answers? like? I mean, it might depend on what village

[pj]: you were in, you know, but I mean

[pj]: in in Europe, there was a very specific answer for that. In Africa, there was a specific

[pj]: answer for that.

[joe_meyer]: Mhm.

[pj]: I mean, you had people who had lived for generations and they passed it down and

[pj]: stability was so hard to come by that nobody challenged it be cause they wanted the

[pj]: stability.

[joe_meyer]: Yeah, and

[pj]: Yeah, in a lot of ways you know.

[joe_meyer]: you're right. And and someone that we both cause, I've heard you mentioned him on

[joe_meyer]: on your pocast, as well, someone that we both like Charles Taylor. He

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: talks about this, as he would say, this is the modern problem,

[joe_meyer]: right,

[pj]: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: The modern problem is all of a sudden we've opted the we've up the science,

[joe_meyer]: right, We, we live longer, and because of kind of technological moves, even

[joe_meyer]: simple technology. we've made it somewhat easier to have access to food and

[joe_meyer]: shelter and all this stuff. And now what are we left with ourselves?

[joe_meyer]: Now

[joe_meyer]: we've got a deal. Yes, well, we've got to deal with the problem of like Hobbsson,

[pj]: the worst problem of all.

[joe_meyer]: Roseau, and And and the enlightenment idea of the individual consciousness and

[joe_meyer]: the sovereignty of the individual right. So here you are. Let's talk about your

[joe_meyer]: freedom as as a person. And and Rose comes out and talks about how you know right

[joe_meyer]: from the gate. Uh, what is it? Man is born free and isn't everywhere in chains.

[joe_meyer]: I

[pj]: Yeah, I.

[joe_meyer]: mean, it's it. It's this idea of like Congratulations, You can do anything and

[joe_meyer]: we'll just stand there,

[joe_meyer]: afraid to move.

[joe_meyer]: I don't know which

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: way to go now and

[joe_meyer]: taylor. of course, Yeah, Taylor talks about this that we've We've never dealt

[pj]: it's paralyzing.

[joe_meyer]: with that problem Actually sufficiently yet. We still haven't from the eighteenth

[pj]: Oh,

[joe_meyer]: century. And and

[pj]: absolutely

[joe_meyer]: he's right in a lot of ways. He's absolutely right that we still are trying to

[joe_meyer]: work through this problem of of um, individual sovereignty, Liberalism in in not

[joe_meyer]: in the political sense, but Um, in that sense,

[pj]: right. the the yes, which always gets me in trouble.

[joe_meyer]: and and democracy too. Yeah,

[pj]: I

[joe_meyer]: yeah,

[pj]: always use. I like. There's like three or four senses of liberal that I use on a daily

[pj]: basis and it gets me in trouble all the

[joe_meyer]: I know.

[pj]: time Like it's like. Uh, it's the and, and people don't even know that the other ones

[pj]: exist. It's just yeah, it's It's quite the thing

[joe_meyer]: yeah, it is. It's tough. it is. Yeah,

[pj]: you mentioned, the uh tech side of it and that's really fascinating to me. And this is

[pj]: where you mentioned. you know, Uh, you have Joe Bydon, and you have Donal Trump. You

[pj]: have Obama and everybody, and I'm just I curious. uh. what you think about this? I do

[pj]: think there's a big gap between the way Obama was treated and Trump was treated. Not in

[pj]: a question of like, right or wrong treatment. I think uh, when I saw that he was

[pj]: conducting himself personally on Twitter, I was like,

[pj]: Oh, wow, and this is. I've done a a good amount of reading Marshaal Macluan. I don't

[pj]: know if you're familiar. Uh, the medium is the massage. Yeah, um,

[joe_meyer]: not a lotc, but little bit.

[pj]: so, uh, yeah, I, I'm I haven't done like tons. Um, but the medium is a massage. Great

[pj]: book. It's like a hundred pages, which is always wonderful When you get those like works

[pj]: of philosophy, you're like like, Oh, accomplish something. Yeah, um, but uh,

[pj]: but uh, I was like this is going to change everything. And really, when you look at even

[pj]: there's like hard data And but I think we all just felt I don't think anyone denies us.

[pj]: Trump occupied more mental space than any American president before him. Like when you

[pj]: look how much he got mentioned on both sides, and that's uh. one of the things that has.

[pj]: Really,

[pj]: I don't think.

[pj]: I think it's a separate problem. I think how we're going to handle new technologies is a

[pj]: separate problem from this problem of self, but I think it is intersecting in

[pj]: interesting and very possibly dangerous ways. If that makes sense. What? What

[joe_meyer]: yeah. Mhm.

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: do you see? That gap between the What? like Obama and Trump in

[joe_meyer]: what I see?

[pj]: terms of like?

[joe_meyer]: Yeah, what I? what? I? The way I look at it is this, I. I, again, I always like

[joe_meyer]: to do the from a distance view right

[pj]: Sure,

[joe_meyer]: away from the local part Here and what I see is actually again a kind of

[joe_meyer]: similarity which people will say, no, no, no, no, but but hear me out. What I

[pj]: Sure,

[joe_meyer]: mean is that both

[joe_meyer]: both were

[joe_meyer]: neo modern in the sense that both were heavily narrative driven.

[joe_meyer]: In this sense,

[pj]: ah, okay,

[joe_meyer]: people were very

[joe_meyer]: proud, very happy about President Obama coming in, and there was a a wonderful

[joe_meyer]: way that he addressed, you know, people and speeches you know, And that was a

[joe_meyer]: narrative and it was very stabilizing. what President Trump did. That was

[joe_meyer]: interesting was. He also was able to create a kind of narrative for people.

[joe_meyer]: and even if it was a destabilizing one at times right, almost like a a, like,

[joe_meyer]: almost like a loki figure,

[joe_meyer]: it's a new wantd approach here. I'm going to. I'm going to step in it a little

[joe_meyer]: bit, because it's very nuance what I'm trying to say, and and I may not even say

[joe_meyer]: it just right, but he was able to create

[joe_meyer]: what I'll I'll simply call ordered chaos.

[joe_meyer]: And and I say that because at times he gave the impression of of chaos,

[joe_meyer]: but did it in a very ordered and understandable way. There's a reason why you

[joe_meyer]: still have millions and millions and millions of people who voted for him.

[joe_meyer]: Because they saw

[joe_meyer]: a narrative there, and for them

[joe_meyer]: that was stabilizing.

[pj]: yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: They, they saw him as a as a possible,

[joe_meyer]: um

[joe_meyer]: destabilization for stability, if you'll allow me a weird kind of

[joe_meyer]: flunkysm way there,

[pj]: well, well and uh, maybe

[pj]: to put it in honestly, like the way that I often, uh, saw people talk about him. It was

[pj]: like he was the rebellion against the empire.

[joe_meyer]: right and

[joe_meyer]: that's that's at its basic is a basic story. Actually, Yes, that's a good. An

[pj]: Yeah, like like it

[pj]: well, and that's the way the whole I'm going to drain the swamp. I'm coming from the

[joe_meyer]: interesting way to put it.

[pj]: outside. I'm going like it was like he. didn't. He kept things very simple like

[joe_meyer]: He, he set it up as good versus evil.

[pj]: he. He never talked. stats. Yeah, it was very much good versus evil.

[joe_meyer]: He, he set it up as good, vers as evil, And that

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: was the narrative that he put out there, And that's what made him on the surface.

[joe_meyer]: You would think he'd be more postmorn Because of that way he would destabilize

[joe_meyer]: things. but it it wasn't and I think that's where what

[joe_meyer]: I was struggling with was to say that he. He was actually selling stability.

[pj]: no, it's very neo modern

[joe_meyer]: Really Like to as his narrative. He was saying,

[pj]: reassurance.

[joe_meyer]: this is. I'm good. reassurance. Believe in me versus evil, and I think

[pj]: Yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: that spoke to a lot of people. It it did.

[pj]: yeah,

[pj]: um,

[pj]: and yeah, absolutely I, I don't. I don't think that's unfair. I think he himself would.

[pj]: I mean the way he, uh that. That's where the whole like Locker up Chance came from. all

[pj]: that stuff right, like Hillary Clinton was an evil person Like That's definitely the way

[pj]: his campaign like That's way he talked about her. Yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: That's the way they ran it and it worked. Yeah, it worked by selling it as good

[joe_meyer]: versus evil, And that's neo modern. You don't get. I don't know if you get that

[joe_meyer]: outside of neomornism. I don't think he is elected president

[joe_meyer]: in postmodnism. He certainly could have run, but he never would have won. I don't

[joe_meyer]: think because I don't believe that people would have brought into that

[joe_meyer]: necessarily that narrative of good versus evil as easily. I just don't. I don't

[joe_meyer]: think so. I think he. I think he was very smart about that. Really.

[pj]: I, the only thing I would say. Um, and I don't have this fully worked out in my head.

[joe_meyer]: sure?

[pj]: What did feel post modern is? I felt one of his biggest strengths was coming from

[pj]: reality Tv

[pj]: and I feel like

[joe_meyer]: Oh,

[pj]: reality T. V is one of the most post modern things out there, like the If That makes

[pj]: sense and I don't have that idea fully worked out. but it like it was so obvious that

[pj]: what had worked for him in in reality, T. V, and that made him a star was part of what

[pj]: made it work for him as a president. Um. even,

[joe_meyer]: well, think about this, Youre you're not wrong. Actually, you're on to something

[joe_meyer]: here. I think that I never thought about either, which is to say, and I didn't

[joe_meyer]: watch a lot of it Was the apprentice right. I didn't

[pj]: yeah, I watched a lot of it. Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: watch a lot of the apprentice, but my understanding is you're right in that

[joe_meyer]: a coming out of a post modern medium.

[joe_meyer]: But what he?

[joe_meyer]: He established his narrative as a.

[joe_meyer]: I'm willing to fire you

[joe_meyer]: to get the

[pj]: yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: job done. he established an incredibly like, Maybe, I should say, he cemented a

[joe_meyer]: narrative

[pj]: you know,

[joe_meyer]: of ownership,

[pj]: I love that you said that, 'cause I, um, 'cause I said you know, Rebel rebellion versus

[pj]: the empire. It really wasn't most people I talked to who talked about him in glowing

[pj]: fashion. Talked about him. As he's a business man. He's going

[joe_meyer]: Right

[pj]: to come into a a corrupt and crappy business and he's going to clean it up. He's going

[pj]: to be the new c e O who straightens everything out And that's definitely so that would

[pj]: fit better, which I mean that that that's his image to a tea, right, Um, but it's a

[pj]: really interesting. um, uh, I remember reading about his campaign so obviously this

[pj]: isn't just Donald Trump. He has a whole host of strategist and everything, and what he

[pj]: did differently than a lot of people, And I think this goes back to your point about

[pj]: reassurance and how we need reassurance. Um, and I'm not. I don't want to just use this

[pj]: time like I don't want to. I'm not a huge fan of. Just like I'm just goingnna Bash

[pj]: Trump, or I'm go to Bash Bidon. I just use that by an example is like you know

[pj]: this for me. this is. this is analytical, right, like I'm not, I'm not here to like.

[joe_meyer]: exactly, I agree the same thing with me. I'm not interested

[pj]: Yeah, like. I.

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: again in the left and right thing. I don't care. We're just talking

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: ideas. Yeah,

[pj]: yes. so um, but the campaign manager, like he said this explicitly. Ah, he's like we're

[pj]: not going to apologize

[pj]: And that's what Really like? I mean, and you could see it. That's why he won the

[pj]: Republican side Because he said things that every other politician would apologize for

[pj]: And he didn't. He doubled down. In fact, Uh, so I remember, specifically, the one that

[pj]: they pointed out was he and I don't remember who it was. He said something, Um, that

[pj]: someone took as offensive. You know I don't remember what it was. I don't know if it's

[pj]: offensive or not right. I mean, that's a whole. another discussion like how does the

[pj]: fence work right? But uh, and instead of apologizing, which was the normal tactic at the

[pj]: time, he went to the guy's home state and he went on a really long tour, doubling down

[pj]: on the same message he had given.

[pj]: And that's I mean, when you talk about narrative reassurance,

[pj]: I mean that's like.

[pj]: It's

[joe_meyer]: yeah, yeah,

[pj]: like No, I am what I am and you can feel comfort if you are with me. I'm not going to

[pj]: trade like. I mean, that's like people. Oh, he doesn't flip Fl. Like I know what I'm

[pj]: getting with Trump and that's like that's how it works

[joe_meyer]: exactly, and

[pj]: and it goes very well what you're saying,

[joe_meyer]: you're right and

[joe_meyer]: right because

[joe_meyer]: for people who really love him there is a stability there that they appreciate in

[joe_meyer]: that way, which I think on the surface again people would probably think that he

[joe_meyer]: was more um, disruptive.

[joe_meyer]: But

[pj]: W nob. But here's the interesting thing.

[joe_meyer]: if you speak to people who love them, it's they see it as stability.

[pj]: Oh yeah, well, and here's the interesting thing, and this is where. Uh,

[pj]: looking at it from the the view out, you know, even when you look

[joe_meyer]: Mhm.

[pj]: at the history of philosophy like the truth is, he was stabilizing for the left too.

[joe_meyer]: Yes, galvanizing, even right that you, right,

[pj]: Yeah, yeah, everyone was just everyone is just like the bogy man. I mean, if that's not

[joe_meyer]: right,

[pj]: like, everyone was just like he's the worst. No, he's the best. He just made E. like

[pj]: like the two sides were like, We're good, you're evil. We're good. you're evil and

[pj]: that's just the way,

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: and uh, and in some ways you could tell,

[pj]: Um, the left almost misses him. You know, like they don't know like it,

[joe_meyer]: because again it's that I. Yeah, it's an easy.

[joe_meyer]: It's an easy thing to talk about because it's so stable in some ways right, and'

[pj]: but we do hate Trump.

[pj]: It's like,

[joe_meyer]: there's always

[pj]: yeah. yeah, we hate Trump too. yeah. yeah. like if they disagree,

[joe_meyer]: there's always an narrative. Yeah, there's always a narrative there to pull from.

[pj]: yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: And

[joe_meyer]: yeah it it is. Had Hadn't thought about it that way, But the language between the

[joe_meyer]: two left and right

[joe_meyer]: when a president Trumps was in office,

[joe_meyer]: was almost story driven, a lot of ways right, and always in that back and forth

[joe_meyer]: of good versus evil,

[pj]: yeah. yeah. yeah.

[joe_meyer]: and that that is always engaging to the human being. We. we live our lives

[joe_meyer]: through narrative. We need narratives, and and maybe that's why people were so

[joe_meyer]: engaged by it,

[pj]: Well, I was about to say

[joe_meyer]: and maybe a little bit more disengaged. Now.

[pj]: exactly. I was just about to say like, Uh, one thing about stories, is it? I mean we

[pj]: like. uh. So I run digital marketing company with my wife and it's amazing how much

[pj]: philosophy can help with that. You know, I

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: got my masters in philosophy because Um, I wanted to be unemployable but the uh, I,

[pj]: without getting my doctor right, I should have gotten my doctorate. Like. What am I

[joe_meyer]: but I wanted to know why I was unemployable I guess

[pj]: thinking?

[pj]: Yeah, exactly,

[pj]: but it's been really, but um y,

[pj]: uh, facts

[pj]: are really helpful. But it's stories that make people that make

[joe_meyer]: yeah,

[pj]: people get up and do stuff. and that's

[joe_meyer]: absolutely

[pj]: like. I mean, that's why we saw record turno, for I think both his selections. I know,

[pj]: For the last one it was. It was astronomical right. Um, and so that's I mean, people are

[pj]: just like like, Oh, I am participating in something. whereas in a lot of ways there's

[pj]: this disenchantment of like. I mean, I don't want to ever encourage people not to do

[pj]: their civic duty. But like how much does your one vote matter? It's like Well, I mean,

[pj]: you're You're a tiny, like droplet of water in a big ocean Like, aren't you glad to be

[pj]: able to like? I? No, I don't care like

[pj]: I can

[joe_meyer]: yeah. Yeah. and he was.

[pj]: be evaporated and I'll stay at home.

[joe_meyer]: He was able to to give people people who voted for him. Felt

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: like it was more than civic duty. If you speak to them about it,

[pj]: oh yeah,

[joe_meyer]: they'll tell you that it was. It was a. a, uh, an existential duty almost

[joe_meyer]: to to.

[pj]: from the from the left to to vote against him.

[joe_meyer]: yes, and yes, that's where I was going to go too. In the end I was going to say,

[joe_meyer]: and and in the other side as well, it was like a um, again, like a transcending

[joe_meyer]: moment. We're transcending just what this vote means. We're

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: voting for our souls. Is what was happening here right

[pj]: yeah, there is definitely that kind of talk. Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: absolutely. And and that's again, that's why I. I always find it so fascinating

[joe_meyer]: to just look at it from a distance and just kind of keep going back and forth

[joe_meyer]: like a tennis match and going. Huh, What's going on here? It's like the same

[joe_meyer]: thing. Actually, I, you know that kind of thing.

[pj]: I feel like we might tread on a dangerous ground if we start trying to take the third

[pj]: point and find sacred spaces for both those groups. But I think we could just leave

[joe_meyer]: Yes,

[pj]: a that to our audience's imaginations because there'.

[joe_meyer]: no, they're you're. you're right. Sacred space is building sacred space. Let's

[joe_meyer]: just say this is is an intensely personal thing. whatever

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: it is, whatever it is, it's intensely personal and anything that we would say

[joe_meyer]: to try to sway or try to um,

[joe_meyer]: uh, you, a grandranize, or make make one seem more sacred than the other people

[joe_meyer]: will take it as a personal attack on their soul, And that's why.

[pj]: they definitely do. Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: that's why it's not. I wouldn't even say that people take the the easy way out

[joe_meyer]: when you don't do it when you don't talk about it. I, I actually think that it's

[joe_meyer]: It's just

[joe_meyer]: not even that it's not worth it. I don't think there's there's much to say

[joe_meyer]: about it. To

[pj]: H.

[joe_meyer]: be honest with you, It's not about a avoiding it. it's that. If I tried to tell

[joe_meyer]: you what my sacred spaces are,

[joe_meyer]: how does that serve you?

[joe_meyer]: and how

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: does that serve me? They. they're mind for a reason, and I open them up to. maybe

[joe_meyer]: my wife and I open the I'm up to you know, my God and and family, But

[joe_meyer]: it's not something necessarily that we do share easily, and I'm not even so

[pj]: yeah, yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: sure that we should.

[pj]: yeah,

[pj]: I, I mean it gets really.

[pj]: Oh, man, it's so clear like even the almost.

[pj]: I don't know if you saw any of the Youtub videos about the fights over Trump signs

[joe_meyer]: No, not

[pj]: or the fights over the fights over political signs. Like people like setting boobe traps

[pj]: 'cause their Trump signs kept getting taken out of their yards. You know what?

[joe_meyer]: really. Oh, no,

[pj]: when you talk about literal, Oh yeah, oh yeah, right. I mean. like

[pj]: both sides here. You're like Okay One. don't remove political signs for people's yards.

[pj]: Also, like I, it's a political sign. Can we not inflict bodily harm over this? like

[joe_meyer]: yeah,

[pj]: I, Anyways, that's all. Yeah, I mean, and that's something I do want to get 'cause I

[pj]: know this is important to you. I want to get back around to. um. but uh, the idea of

[pj]: like maybe dialoguing instead of

[joe_meyer]: yes,

[pj]: anyway. it's like, but

[joe_meyer]: how important that is. No, it is

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: you're right. It's very

[pj]: but you like.

[joe_meyer]: important that we get back to that.

[pj]: but there's uh. but that sacred space was very clear and that, like, one of the clearest

[pj]: things about sacrts by space is always some kind of icon, some kind of marker, right

[pj]: Like That's how you denote a sacred space and that was very evident. That's an evident

[pj]: in the Trump flags. Um, it's very like. I mean, I saw way more political signs than I

[pj]: ever had right.

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: Everyone was like declaring their uh allegiance. Um, literally, Um, and I obviously

[pj]: don't condone this. Uh, I don't condone any of what I'm talking about here, but like

[pj]: someone later said, I had to sign F. Trump, but spelled out in like twenty foot banner

[pj]: on

[joe_meyer]: oh boy,

[pj]: the front of their house, and like, there's like a suburban place like lots of kids

[pj]: around, and like people are like frustrated and like. But it's just like it's such an

[pj]: intense like it was such an intense thing. It was such a sacred thing. like

[joe_meyer]: but you know what that is, too,

[pj]: like when you say the soul of the nation,

[joe_meyer]: exactly and that's also what I was talking about earlier That that's a cry out.

[joe_meyer]: for

[joe_meyer]: I am somewhat. I'm nervous about the validity of my own narrative. and so I'm

[joe_meyer]: going to project out and see if any one else will join me,

[joe_meyer]: Because if you are, if you are secure in who you are in your narrative right,

[joe_meyer]: there's there comes a certain point when you don't need to do that. you just

[joe_meyer]: stand there and you go. I have my allegiance to

[joe_meyer]: you. know this, this party or that party or whatever, and I can explain to you

[joe_meyer]: why, and here's why,

[pj]: Yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: and that. All of that. that's fine. But when you have to make a show of it,

[joe_meyer]: you're degrading the value of it even a little bit. You really are and you're

[joe_meyer]: you're mocking without knowing it. too. not just the process, but you're you're

[joe_meyer]: mocking in a away, your own narrative.

[joe_meyer]: It's really odd.

[pj]: yeah, yeah, you're becoming a caricature of yourself.

[joe_meyer]: Yeah, and and both sides can do this and

[pj]: Yeah, there is something almost post modern about that. Yeah, where your sacred space

[joe_meyer]: yes, and and and there are remnants. There are remnants of postmoernism that will

[pj]: becomes unsacred. Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: always be with a stand up comedy comes out of

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: postmornism and it will always

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: be what it is, and it will

[pj]: Mhm,

[joe_meyer]: always say to you. When you enter the theater, you give up your sacred space

[pj]: yeah. Well, and that's

[joe_meyer]: because I'm going to tread on it.

[pj]: uh, if you're going to live and I think most people live compartmentalized

[joe_meyer]: Mhm.

[pj]: without. I mean, it's just that importance of being. Some people give up their sacred

[pj]: space. Some people are secure in their sacred spaces, and some people are insecure about

[pj]: their sacred spaces and project on others. So you know, talking as a Christian to

[pj]: another Christian like this is something that. I mean. I've had the probably, um.

[pj]: Some of the worst clients I've ever had are the ones who talk the most about God,

[pj]: who

[joe_meyer]: Well,

[pj]: said God, bless you. Um. It's like Oh, are we both Christians and it's just becomes.

[pj]: It's like you're like

[joe_meyer]: yeah, that's

[pj]: I. I, Yeah, and I'm excited about it. but this is. that was a weird moment to insert

[pj]: that you know what I mean. Like

[joe_meyer]: yeah.

[pj]: why, and then later on it's like Well, we were. I thought we were. You know. you were

[pj]: going to like help me out here, and I'm like I don't really know you. you know, and it

[pj]: like, Um,

[pj]: and so I, you know.

[joe_meyer]: But you know

[pj]: Mm, that's really interesting.

[joe_meyer]: you know what it is, too is if we,

[joe_meyer]: if we talked long enough, a

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: very invariably, we will get to a point where we will disagree on something

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: having to do with our religion and how we

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: practice it. And

[joe_meyer]: I think the important part there is to

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: one know that up front,

[joe_meyer]: and

[pj]: yeah.

[joe_meyer]: say that I have. I have my way. That leads me to God. You have your way where we

[joe_meyer]: need

[pj]: Mhm.

[joe_meyer]: to meet, are on the fundamentals

[joe_meyer]: of of godliness. In a sense you know like we, we have to. We do need to find

[joe_meyer]: spaces where we can meet on that level.

[joe_meyer]: But

[joe_meyer]: to

[joe_meyer]: to to how do I say this?

[pj]: that's why

[joe_meyer]: To assume

[pj]: we connected.

[joe_meyer]: to assume that your sacred space is the same as mine is not simply just foolish.

[joe_meyer]: It's problematic it. it's

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: it's inviting tension where you should have already known it was going to be

[joe_meyer]: there. So then my question would be why you do it.

[joe_meyer]: You know what I mean like that. That's where I would be.

[pj]: well, and it's amazing how. y. Yeah, it's amazing how people um, are just that socially

[pj]: unconscious.

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: it's really. It's like. I just thought you're

[joe_meyer]: it happens.

[pj]: like literally. Like you just don't understand how this works. And like

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: you see like, Um,

[pj]: And you know it's interesting. Uh, well, I have just I want to say. that's why we

[pj]: connected. Um, I mean, I'm so. uh, I go to a Presbyterian church. Uh, you're catholic.

[pj]: We

[joe_meyer]: Mhm.

[pj]: have very obvious historical differences. I'm I can already tell you some of the like.

[pj]: That's like. I know that.

[joe_meyer]: Yes, Yes, I think the audience even knows those.

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: I think everybody knows those differences Now. Yes, exactly,

[pj]: right. Right, So like that, but it's and that's you know. Um, but we can still. And this

[pj]: is what I listen. Why we connected. This is why I've been really excited about this

[pj]: episode. I mean, Yours is on is called Neutral Grounds podcast.

[joe_meyer]: Mhm.

[pj]: My, uh,

[pj]: uh, we run under K, candid Go productions. We have two podcast. One is Weary dads, Um,

[pj]: and then one is chasing the Viathan and it's creating common ground for the common good

[pj]: like it's like we have that like, okay, um, I, I don't think legislating uh.

[pj]: Christianity has worked in the past, not a big fan of the Hundred Years War, so we need

[pj]: to find a way to work together. and

[joe_meyer]: Yeah, Mhm.

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: uh, you know, that kind of brings us back to Uh

[pj]: uh, you know, that kind of brings us back to Uh

[pj]: to the idea of dialogue. and uh, so trying to give an example of like Um, you know, and

[pj]: not to. I hate it when I make myself a hearro The my own story, so I apologizeed, but

[pj]: this is like. it' just such a great example. I have to be. Yeah, but yeah,

[joe_meyer]: you have to be Pj. You have to be. That's the thing is that because that that

[joe_meyer]: means that you believe that there was something worth fighting for in life.

[pj]: yeah. well,

[joe_meyer]: That's what that means.

[pj]: so I want to talk about being

[joe_meyer]: Yeah.

[pj]: secure in my own like it's okay that that you know your you hold different things than I

[pj]: do. Um, it's uh, you're welcome. What a. what a gift for me like you know, like it's

[pj]: always funny for people say that like it's like it's like. Yeah, they don't need your

[pj]: approval. but uh, as an example, um, I was. I have um, an episode with a uh. And it

[pj]: didn, he didn't say on the podcast and I'm almost a little sad. Um,

[pj]: uh, though my mom probably would have had a heart attack. Uh.

[pj]: I. we had. uh, he loves Nicha. Had a guy on.

[joe_meyer]: Mhm,

[pj]: he' like full blown, Uh, Nichan hates

[joe_meyer]: Sure,

[pj]: postmornism 'cause he's He's like like super antniliisttic. We should be making our own

[pj]: meaning evolution all this stuff. and uh, you know, I mentioned that I was a devout

[pj]: Christian 'cause he was like talking, and he was like. Well, you know how Christians

[pj]: think and I'm like. Well, it'd be dis ingenuous for me to be like. really. Yeah, those

[pj]: christians right. And um, so we started talking about chryist a little bit, and he's

[pj]: like, Yeah, Jesus was kind of an ahole. I mean he didn't he just full outside the whole

[pj]: word. And I was like Okay, And you know he's like. I mean throwing the the tables and

[pj]: everything. And I was just like

[pj]: I could be offended, but I'm

[joe_meyer]: right,

[pj]: like, obviously like coming from his perspective. Like if Jesus wasn't the son of God,

[pj]: that's probably a fair. Like if some guy just came in and started trashing your your,

[pj]: your workplace,

[joe_meyer]: the the marketplace, Yeah,

[pj]: that would be an appropriate thing to say, And it's like I and I'm like I. It's fine

[pj]: 'cause he doesn't determine my sacred space. he doesn't determine. And that's

[joe_meyer]: exactly

[pj]: that is the price we pay. That's the price we pay for not legislating one particular

[pj]: narrative

[joe_meyer]: absolutely,

[pj]: and that there's a. There is a price like you will run into that, but

[joe_meyer]: Mhm,

[pj]: I can't get upset about that because I'd much rather have that than. Um, you know some

[pj]: guy in Geneva, having a different view of the trendy and getting burned at the stake

[pj]: like

[joe_meyer]: Yes,

[pj]: I can't can imagine that in America, like,

[joe_meyer]: yeah, no, you're right,

[pj]: like it senses like. I mean the whole point of America was to escape that. Um, and I, I

[pj]: think that brings us background, and this is Um.

[pj]: We. We talked a little bit about how, Uh, both sides. you know, I have fears about

[pj]: reactionary side. whichever side, I don't want extremes from either side taking over the

[pj]: country.

[joe_meyer]: Mhm.

[pj]: Uh, one of the things that we do need to reclaim and I, I don't really see it in these

[pj]: three and that's where I. I'm in interested to see

[joe_meyer]: Sure,

[pj]: your thoughts on this. and obviously you're You're trying to create dialogue. Um

[pj]: that, As we a, as we think about,

[pj]: there does seem to be on both sides an unwillingness to talk.

[joe_meyer]: Mhm.

[pj]: One. is there a way? Uh, why is that a bad thing? I mean, I think that's kind of

[pj]: obvious, but I I guess lately, answer that because I think it's really easy. Like when

[pj]: you say to someone you can't like, I'm not even going to listen to you when you

[pj]: absolutely shut down dialogue. Then you leave the other person no recourse but to leave

[pj]: or to resort to violence.

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: And that's really. and so.

[pj]: Uh, Obviously it's kind of what you're trying to create. In some ways of your podcast.

[pj]: Do you see any long term strategies? Any ways that this might play out where dialogue

[pj]: might happen? Maybe it's going to happen naturally, or do you think that's something we

[pj]: need to focus on? And how can we focus on it?

[joe_meyer]: I think you hit upon an interesting word earlier, which is compartmentalization,

[joe_meyer]: So for for example, if you can have that your your sacred space and open it up

[joe_meyer]: whenever you need it, and you know to revitalize yourself, maybe, or recenter

[joe_meyer]: yourself on something that is serious and that you can actually connect with and

[joe_meyer]: then at the same time go have dinner with someone who thinks something totally o,

[joe_meyer]: totally separate from you. Maybe even it completely violates your narrative and

[joe_meyer]: your sacred space, and and all of that stuff. But at the end of that dinner, look

[joe_meyer]: at each other and smile and just kind of say hey that you know that was really

[joe_meyer]: interesting. You know, Let let's do it again

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: because for some people I think they would see that as problematic. Like how

[joe_meyer]: could you do that When

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: they clearly let's let's use the harshest language we can. They clearly hate

[joe_meyer]: everything about you, everything that you are, and, and to that I would simply

[joe_meyer]: say

[joe_meyer]: I'm not meeting these people.

[joe_meyer]: to um, for the reason of of trying to find ways to disconnect with them. I'm

[joe_meyer]: going to find connections,

[joe_meyer]: and to me that's that's very meaningful. Like I, I can sit down and have a

[joe_meyer]: conversation with anybody. really, And that's I mean, you know to to bring the

[joe_meyer]: the Christianity into it again. I mean who was Jesus, having you know supper with

[joe_meyer]: I, and and having over it he wasn't having it with the people who believed him

[joe_meyer]: and and necessarily he had it with the people who needed him most.

[joe_meyer]: And he had it with the people that others said. How could you have? How could you

[joe_meyer]: be seen with that person?

[joe_meyer]: And in some ways

[joe_meyer]: I kind of feel like

[joe_meyer]: E. Even if you don't believe in that, the idea of

[joe_meyer]: go out and just meet people on a human level. because we've you can. That's the

[joe_meyer]: the potential downfall of all of this in your

[pj]: hm.

[joe_meyer]: modernism.

[joe_meyer]: Is that you think we're separate now?

[joe_meyer]: Oh boy, let me tell you something. this could get a lot worse. And here's how it.

[joe_meyer]: It will get worse. If it does. We

[pj]: yeah.

[joe_meyer]: all create our own narrative. We

[pj]: Yep.

[joe_meyer]: no longer have even connections with family.

[joe_meyer]: That's the next step where we start saying I have ▁zero connection with my father

[joe_meyer]: or my my sister or whatever, And

[pj]: we already see some of that with like,

[joe_meyer]: well, yeah, you always see

[pj]: definitely family splitting over over the Po. political stuff. Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: I. I mean it's exactly, and and you start to develop your own narrative so much

[joe_meyer]: that you no longer believe in any connection to any other human element. And so

[joe_meyer]: what do we have? We have just a bunch of individuals who can no longer be in the

[joe_meyer]: same room with each other, Because the mere presence of another human being is a

[joe_meyer]: violation of your narrative,

[joe_meyer]: And

[pj]: Mhm.

[joe_meyer]: we're not there. We're not there yet, we're not despite.

[pj]: no, no, no,

[joe_meyer]: Even if we see things, but it can get there,

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: it really can, And so

[pj]: yes,

[joe_meyer]: the more that we can meet each other on just human basic levels. Hey, do you want

[joe_meyer]: to be a good person?

[joe_meyer]: Me too. Do you fail at it? sometimes, Me too.

[joe_meyer]: Let's talk

[pj]: what are?

[joe_meyer]: about about how we work together.

[joe_meyer]: It sounds corny, but the cornest things are are the things that are often the

[joe_meyer]: most true.

[pj]: Yeah, and even what are the? Even if what we say and what it means to be a good person

[pj]: differs. Where

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: does it there? There's always going to be somewhere where it agrees. Oh okay, we

[joe_meyer]: yes,

[pj]: can at least agree on these things right. These things are things that we can agree on

[pj]: and move forward And I don't think people realize how precious what we have here is. You

[joe_meyer]: yeah,

[pj]: know, it was interesting to see some reflection from both the left and the right after

[pj]: what happened in Afghanistan and of course there is the recriminations and the political

[pj]: narratives about it, but some people are like Okay, just to be clear.

[pj]: A Afghanni mothers were passing their children to go to our country because our country

[pj]: is better than where where it is right right there. because they are all lot. We are

[pj]: allowed to talk about things. And so we need to guard this. We need to guard this

[pj]: ability to be together and be different, because I mean hoof. I mean that's that's scary

[pj]: stuff.

[joe_meyer]: that picture alone, these pictures of people.

[joe_meyer]: That's where

[joe_meyer]: you. You do need a check of yourself

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: a little bit, because if you're not, at least, at some point

[joe_meyer]: focusing on the suffering there in that moment of

[pj]: H. hm.

[joe_meyer]: these people so desperate that they are taking a true life or death chance. and

[joe_meyer]: if your heart doesn't in some way move

[joe_meyer]: at how hard they were trying to work,

[joe_meyer]: then you're probably too far into the extremes you really are, because

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: then that extreme narrative is the thing that's actually running your life

[pj]: if that's what matters to you is how this affects your narrative instead of like. Oh,

[pj]: seeing them as a human being who need like,

[joe_meyer]: horible. See that it's horrible and and

[pj]: Yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: people talking about it as a passing thing

[joe_meyer]: as a passing, um

[joe_meyer]: paragraph in a narrative, I can't do that. I, I'll be honest with you, My initial

[joe_meyer]: reaction was immediately to think about.

[joe_meyer]: We're going to have to do our part to make sure that any one who was involved in

[joe_meyer]: the Iraq and Afghanistan weres know

[joe_meyer]: that

[joe_meyer]: it wasn't meaningless. It wasn't,

[joe_meyer]: and on top of that something that we learned in modernism, right because

[joe_meyer]: neomornism comes out of modernism and modernism. You have this shift of the epic

[joe_meyer]: hero of

[pj]: Mhm,

[joe_meyer]: being a hero on battle

[joe_meyer]: to the hero in the home,

[pj]: yeah.

[joe_meyer]: and so

[pj]: Oh, interesting. that's not where I thought that was going to go. Sorry, go ahead, okay,

[joe_meyer]: one thing that I want. I want to work on. Yes, and here's wy it. No, no, no,

[joe_meyer]: please let let me say this because it might help some one

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: in in the ancient text in ancient Greece, right Homers text. You have the epic

[joe_meyer]: The Iliad and you have the Odyssey

[pj]: Mhm,

[joe_meyer]: in the Iliot. Of course, Achilles, is it? Every one is all about glory and glory.

[joe_meyer]: In the ancient Greek sense was a sustainable narrative that would give the hero

[joe_meyer]: immortality

[joe_meyer]: through

[pj]: right

[joe_meyer]: story,

[joe_meyer]: and that's what they wanted. And of course Achilles gets immortality. We talk

[joe_meyer]: about his narrative. Okay

[pj]: by accepting his death,

[joe_meyer]: exactly. And

[pj]: Yes,

[joe_meyer]: then you get to the Odyssy, and the Odysse is all about Odysseus trying to get

[joe_meyer]: back home from the war, And there's nothing that's more important

[joe_meyer]: throughout that text that than him getting home,

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: and it becomes this, The, The, The height of. Actually, Let me say this, Because

[joe_meyer]: this, this'll get to the the point, even better. Odysseus at one point goes into

[joe_meyer]: the underworld and he meets Achilles,

[joe_meyer]: and Achilles wants nothing to do with hearing Odysseus tell stories of how

[joe_meyer]: awesome Achilles was in battle. You know what Achilly says him. He says something

[joe_meyer]: like, Don't talk to me, light of counsels about my great feats. Tell me about my

[joe_meyer]: son,

[pj]: yeah,

[joe_meyer]: and so the glory. The sight of heroism is moved from the battlefield to the home,

[joe_meyer]: and

[pj]: Mhm.

[joe_meyer]: when Odysseus tells Achilles all the wonderful things that that Achilless son

[joe_meyer]: did, he just walks away, Achilles. but he walks away proud

[pj]: yeahm,

[joe_meyer]: and that happens again after World War One. When you really, you're entering into

[joe_meyer]: modernism and the hero

[joe_meyer]: shifts. So you have a a piece like Ulysses written by James Joyce,

[pj]: Mhm,

[joe_meyer]: where the hero it's It's based on the Odyssey

[pj]: right.

[joe_meyer]: and the hero is this character Leopold Bloom, And there's nothing epic about him

[joe_meyer]: at all. Nothing

[joe_meyer]: except for one thing,

[joe_meyer]: he loves his wife, even though she cheats on him. She, he's faithful to her, and

[joe_meyer]: he's a father figure to the young man Stephen Dadalus,

[joe_meyer]: And when

[joe_meyer]: we reach when we we we hi. a chapter called Uh titled Eeus, we,

[pj]: Mhm.

[joe_meyer]: we run into this sailor named Debe Murphy, and Deee Murphy, is this really

[joe_meyer]: braggedocious big epichro, and he's telling this story and he mentions he has a

[joe_meyer]: wife waiting for him for seven years. He hasn't seencause, He's been out at sea,

[joe_meyer]: adventuring like the upper hero, and then he mentions, also he has a son, and as

[joe_meyer]: he's telling this story, the people in the room ask him how old is your son?

[joe_meyer]: And he just kind of pauses and he goes, my son

[joe_meyer]: and he gets confused.

[joe_meyer]: In that moment Joyce is trying to show us who's the real hero in the room. It's

[joe_meyer]: not not Dee Murphy the Sailor, who' doing all this adventuring, its Leopold

[joe_meyer]: Bloom, who sitting with the young man and just listening to him. We need to shift

[joe_meyer]: to make that shift again after war To tell people or anybody who is involved in

[joe_meyer]: this,

[joe_meyer]: come back home. relocate your understanding of heroism to the home

[joe_meyer]: to civilization to us, and we need to be optimistic with them about that and

[joe_meyer]: praise them for it.

[pj]: hm.

[pj]: Yes, absolutely. and it's just a

[pj]: one, super helpful and practical. Uh, the utility is obvious there right like

[pj]: Um,

[pj]: and it's

[pj]: something that we don't teach young men enough At least, uh, uh, e. especially in

[pj]: movies. you know. I mean,

[pj]: I, I grew up watching John Wayne with my dad and fortunately my dad was a strong father

[pj]: figure. but I mean John Wayne is very rarely good father figure right like? I mean, you

[pj]: look at like those pictures of mannhood. Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: The cowboys is like the closest you get the cowboys.

[pj]: right, right, you' right. Actually, it's

[joe_meyer]: Yeah, yeah,

[pj]: a good example. but like not, most of them aren't like that. In fact, that one was kind

[pj]: of an interesting one. Yeah, no, um, I was thinking of uh, big Jake, Um, My grandpa

[pj]: absolutely loves those. I pretty sure he. wa. He's watch Big Jake like a hundred times,

[pj]: but um, and he's a terrible father, Right

[pj]: and but he's tough. and uh, you know, I think some of that with World War Two, right.

[pj]: You still have that that wash over from World War Two and

[pj]: the danger with what we're talking with neo modernism. And I'm just working through what

[pj]: you've said Here Is that in our search for reassurance and our search for heroes, we

[pj]: miss the need for heroes in the home.

[joe_meyer]: yes,

[joe_meyer]: it's a natural. History tells us a natural thing

[joe_meyer]: to move or to try to move that site of heroism to the domestic, And this is this

[joe_meyer]: that has nothing to do with with. Uh. this is open to men, women. Anybody that we

[joe_meyer]: relocate heroism to society

[joe_meyer]: and we give them a reason to believe there are battles to be fought in your

[joe_meyer]: living room,

[joe_meyer]: and that that has meaning right.

[pj]: Yeah, yeah,

[joe_meyer]: Because what you worry about is and people already are saying it. You know that

[joe_meyer]: that this will was, was this meaningless, the wars,

[joe_meyer]: and that's what leads to this kind of. I mean we could lose generations

[joe_meyer]: because of this

[pj]: we saw that with World War One that they called the last generation. right.

[pj]: we saw that with World War One that they called the last generation. right.

[joe_meyer]: Vietnam. I mean, you have the

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: rise of the biker gangs. You have. I mean it. this is a very real thing

[pj]: Mhm.

[joe_meyer]: and it's not. It's something that is that we're all responsible for.

[pj]: Yeah,

[joe_meyer]: We really are and I'm not again. This. It's funny to me, people. I hate. The one

[joe_meyer]: thing I hate more than anything is I hate cynicism.

[joe_meyer]: I hate cynicism with a passion.

[joe_meyer]: Because either you believe that the human being has value and merit

[joe_meyer]: or I don't know what you're doing here. then I really don't like. I. I. I

[joe_meyer]: couldn't imagine

[joe_meyer]: living my entire life cynically. I couldn't do it. I mean with at least Su, you

[joe_meyer]: got to have something to connect to every every day you have to, or you end up

[joe_meyer]: like a shade in the underworld, just kind of walking around

[pj]: it's a projection of self hatred.

[joe_meyer]: and and and eventually I mean it really is. And and that's such a a horrible

[joe_meyer]: sad place to be.

[pj]: Yeah, it is.

[pj]: Yeah, and thank you so much. I think if you could leave us, I should have just not talk.

[pj]: I just wanted to process what you were saying of was such a good voice to end the

[pj]: podcast. But I don't know if, Um,

[pj]: if there is one thing you wanted, Um, our audience today to take away from this

[pj]: discussion. What would it be

[joe_meyer]: What I would say is this

[joe_meyer]: Look, What would I try to tell? I try to tell my students is how you deal with

[joe_meyer]: knowledge, Because how we deal with not, we get so much knowledge to day. It's

[joe_meyer]: just so overwhelming.

[joe_meyer]: What you have to do. is this,

[joe_meyer]: take in what you've heard,

[joe_meyer]: Don't react.

[joe_meyer]: Let us sit there for a minute. Give it your own language so that you can best

[joe_meyer]: process what it means for yourself

[joe_meyer]: and then go out into the world and just watch how it manifests itself.

[joe_meyer]: Really. just look around and just see. Okay. That's where I see some one trying

[joe_meyer]: to, I think, defend their sacred space,

[joe_meyer]: and then after you see it,

[joe_meyer]: go back into your own head and reflect on. Okay. So what does it mean?

[joe_meyer]: And that's when you start to develop a true sense of yourself There you start to

[joe_meyer]: say. You know what. I think. I know why that person seemed so upset with me and

[joe_meyer]: it had nothing to do with me.

[joe_meyer]: They were felt like they were under attack like their sacred space was under

[joe_meyer]: attack. And the moment that you do that is the moment you start to realize you

[joe_meyer]: know what. I don't hate that person.

[joe_meyer]: I really don't. I actually just kind of understand

[joe_meyer]: and you go all right And so you don't walk around

[joe_meyer]: feeling hated and you don't walk around hating others And and there's just not

[joe_meyer]: enough time for that anyway. There's too much good that needs to be done. We

[joe_meyer]: don't have time for that. And so what I would say is if you do

[joe_meyer]: walk around, build your narrative. It's O K, to be the hero, but

[joe_meyer]: postmorn postmoernism would say, Sometimes

[joe_meyer]: you also need to move yourself to the side

[joe_meyer]: and take a look and see how your heroism is impacting other people in your

[joe_meyer]: narrative, the people you love, the people you care about your strangers. That's

[joe_meyer]: the value of postmodnism.

[joe_meyer]: Then you bring it back to yourself. If you need to, When you need to continually

[joe_meyer]: keep building, I would say, try to transcend.

[joe_meyer]: Try to transcend what you what you think you are and become continually work on

[joe_meyer]: becoming something better.

[joe_meyer]: And then I would say it's okay to build your sacred space and have that as a

[joe_meyer]: refreshing place where you can renew yourself when the rest of the world seems

[joe_meyer]: sometimes to just be mocking you. In some way. It's okay to do that.

[joe_meyer]: I guess that's what I would say.

[pj]: well? That's quite a bit to say. I love it.

[pj]: Thank you so much. I' inspiring. Um.

[pj]: it's it's refreshing itself. Um

[pj]: to to hear someone who

[pj]: is willing to

[pj]: not naively. But after having worked through things continue in

[pj]: to build something.

[joe_meyer]: Hm,

[pj]: and

[joe_meyer]: Yeah,

[pj]: uh, that's really really encouraging. so thank you so much of such a joy to have you on

[joe_meyer]: Well, thank you, as my pleasure was wonderful, I had a blast.

[pj]: awesome.