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Authentic, Authoritative, Unapologetic ServiceNow commentary by Cory "CJ" Wesley and Robert "The Duke" Fedoruk
Duke: all right.
Corey, what are we talking about today?
CJ: Duke today.
We're talking about making
friends with your users.
Duke: That's right.
, we thought about this one because we
had both noticed, over our past few
customers that sometimes you have these
paradigms where the ServiceNow team is
its own silo and Maybe they're popular,
maybe they're not, but they, but there's
no really good communication with the
stakeholders, either the people in the
business that consume the services on
service now, or the people who are in
charge of delivering those services.
And so you come in and maybe
you're a freelance architect.
It's like, we have all these things
we need to improve and all these
things that people don't like
about the current situation and
go, go, go build, build, build.
But yet the organization still acts
like nothing's changing, right?
And so this is all about how do
you formally build channels of
communication with the people
who are using your product?
, CJ: yeah.
, all of that Duke and there's so
many, tendrils, ? To this one that,
it goes deep and wide, cause the
first thing that comes to my mind is.
, the lack of this for most it organizations
is one of the causes of shadow it.
Not being able to communicate with
your user community, understand
what their actual needs are so
that you can provide for them.
Um, you know, uh, one of the other
causes is that, and not actually
listening to them when they talk to
you, but that's a different episode.
, Duke: I think people's instincts are
that everything has to be in the tool.
So a bunch of people are making requests.
There's the rhythm, there's the
project, there's the incident, whatever.
And we chat with them through that
interface, or we email them, or every
once in a while, we have a meeting with.
Some kind of VP level directorship,
but it can be so much better
with way more open channels.
CJ: Yeah.
And my last company, they
did this, , very well.
So it was an internal app and
there was a group of folks that
they identified power users.
You want to call them folks of influence,
whatever you want to call them.
. And so they had this group of folks, they
call them app champions, and they were the
folks who got the constant communication.
They got to see the early builds.
They got to influence the
development direction.
They were the folks who were.
, talking to their, coworkers and telling
them about the things that are coming
up next and how good it was going
to be, or maybe how bad it was going
to be or , , what have you right?
But it was, , a formalized group
of folks , who were basically
blessed by their management.
, in this council, to discuss the app and to
talk about the app and the direction of it
and to ensure that, there was an alignment
between development and business.
Duke: And, , what's your
experience with setting them up?
Have you ever set one up?
CJ: Not formally and not in this way.
No, and definitely , not
at scale like that either.
But I think we all have to
a certain degree, right?
Most of us who've been in this space
as long as you and I have Duke,
?
Like we've set up a cab, ? And that's
a sort of similar thing, ? You're
going out, you grabbing folks who
are, , party to this process and
getting them together and then help it.
And then they're helping make
decisions , on a process.
Yeah.
, cause I don't know about your
experience, but my experience, the
cap didn't only, meet to, discuss
changes they met to actually discuss
the direction of change management.
Right?
Duke: I've done it a bunch of times and
it's definitively easier when you're the
person on the inside, when I've tried to
set it up being a freelance architect,
and you don't have any political sway
it's not that you can compel , your
handlers to move in a certain direction.
? And so you're more like, you
have to put a lot of emphasis
into the ask and how it's asked.
So that they understand
the criticality of it.
But when is your app and you're the
product owner in your company, it's
way easier just to reach out to either
the people who complain the loudest,
.
Or the people , who love it and, , are
bought in , and bring them close, um,
We didn't organize this very well.
So we're just trying to figure
this stuff out, the haphazard.
CJ: Yeah.
Let me push back on that actually
a little bit Duke, because I don't
know what the correct percentage is.
. But I think there are some cases
where being the outsider actually
helps you organize that easier.
. There are some cases where internal
it isn't necessarily trusted
by the business at this moment.
And so them trying to reach out and
get together, a user stakeholder group,
? Might not be met with a whole lot
of, , optimism or excitement, but if
you bring in someone with credentials,
?
Like you and I have and then we say.
Hey, you know, what would be really cool?
How about we put together this
stakeholder group comprised of users.
And let's make sure we identify
the folks who are both love the
system and don't love it as much.
And let's get everyone together
and let's have some conversations.
And because we have the gravitas and
the experience and the work and the
titles and certifications and all that
kind of stuff, and we're an independent.
, entity outside of the
normal it infrastructure.
We sometimes can compel the business
to come together and think, well,
this time it might be different.
Duke: Oh, you know what
else we're disposable,
CJ: That too.
Duke: So it's kind of like, I've been
in situations where the stakeholders
are kind of afraid of the rest of
the organization, ? They're not
well liked and Oh, well, yeah.
I don't know how to sway them , or I
don't want to commit to anything or
be perceived to commit to anything.
And then get, , punched down
later when I don't deliver.
In those situations, it's easy for
somebody like us to say, , let me do it.
I'm comfortable in a room.
I'm used to dealing with hostile
stakeholders and I could put a smiley
happy face on and if I still can't do
it, you could be like, yeah, that Fedora
guy, we never should have , let her never
should have let him out of the kennel.
, we won't make that mistake again.
, CJ: and then they can commiserate right
over , how horrible you were, right.
You know, and, and they can,
Duke: That's one thing
you have in common now.
CJ: Right.
And they can use that
to come together, right.
Whatever works ultimately
at the end of the day.
, I'd love it if my clients didn't have
to fire me in order to, uh, to, you
know, get movement on the project.
Right.
But
Duke: Oh man, it would not be funny, but
it's getting just fun to laugh at now.
CJ: right.
But maybe if they come back, if they fired
me to get movement, reach out and say,
Hey, here's a bonus because actually,
we all hated you, but that, that was
the best thing that ever happened to us.
It was like, that's great.
Duke: So I would like to talk about one of
my experiences with this too if you are,
, a ServiceNow product owner who really
feels the pressure from the rest of the
organization, let's just leave the idea
of , do they like the experience or not?
But let's say they want more.
Everybody wants stuff improved,
stuff built, whatever.
So if you're feeling like you're
under pressure and you don't have a
Stakeholder council get one because
I have found it's the easiest way
to show the organization that.
It's not them versus you.
Like why, how come you
aren't getting my stuff done?
? It completely diffuses that tension
because people will see that it's
not them versus you, the product
owner, it's them versus the weight
of the rest of the organization that
also wants ServiceNow stuff done.
They don't have any way of seeing
that, Bob wants cleaner notifications,
but meanwhile, Jane is responsible
for, , getting asset management up
and running and there's millions
of dollars at stake with this.
. And so now people can see
their own requests in the
context of the bigger picture.
CJ: That's a really good point.
And honestly, this is something where,
, my nighttime job, ? It really comes
in handy and it's really useful and we
don't do it well, enough there either.
Right.
But in that context, I talk
about it as transparency, what
demands are in the queue.
And what's the priority of those demands?
Right.
What's our level of resources and why are
these things getting done before others?
Right.
Like,
Duke: Well like just on that point too.
I think so many people say transparency
But what they imagine is i'm comfortable
showing you the performance on my
tickets Even if it's bad, which is
noble but , not big enough thinking
because part of transparency is
what can we do with this app?
What are we under utilizing
that we've bought?
How many people have performance
analytics just sitting there, right?
CJ: Hey everybody.
Duke: Just sitting there, just like part
of transparency is getting people together
and say like, Hey, we have this tool that
can really drive process performance.
Or all the people that just didn't have
a good strategy for catalog right out the
gate or for all those companies who have
suffered major mergers and acquisitions.
And so you got three different ways
to order the same SharePoint request.
Cause it's three different
companies that used to do it.
Right.
Like, like how else are you supposed
to bring that to the table?
And it's a place to put
your vision in place.
A lot of companies will be like,
Oh, make sure you show us a roadmap.
And sometimes what they mean is we're
going to tell you a whole bunch of
stuff and you put it in the single
file that is most appealing to us.
But as a seasoned ServiceNow resource,
you're certain to have ideas to improve
the platform, utilize more of the platform
that nobody will ever ask you for.
CJ: Yeah,
Duke: But how do you get
that stuff out in front?
, CJ: yeah, again, , I think this
stakeholder council idea is a
great ability to showcase from both
ends, right, is the user community,
showcasing, hey, these are the
troubles that we have and this is
how we rate those troubles on our end.
, and we want to be involved in
helping us fix them right now.
We don't want you to just go away in a
black box and come back and say, hey.
We took three sentences from you
and we built a solution, right?
Like we want to actually have
some, skin in the game, help it
identify the actual solution.
And I did, and then you'll
get into your point, right?
Like allowing you to tell us.
What else you could possibly do or how
you could possibly solve this in a way
and then going having that back and forth?
Because now we we're
starting to understand the
platform a little bit better.
Now we can ask for more and we can
ask for better or we can contextualize
our problem more because we can
be confident that a solution out
there potentially exists for it.
Right?
And then as the product owner, you
and you're the folks on your team
have this place where you can bring
a little bit more of that knowledge,
as a developer, you maybe you don't
necessarily get to exhibit that.
In those internal meetings as much, right?
Like you get a story assigned to you work.
It is done.
It's a great story.
You done it.
Did it really well, right?
Like you get kudos.
Hey, yeah, that was really efficient,
but you might also have thoughts on
how you can solve a complex problem
because you that's all that's a skill
set that you don't get to show too often.
But in the stakeholder council, right?
When you're having this open
communication, maybe that's the
sort of thing that bubbles up to.
Oh,
, Duke: there's one other element
I want to bring to this.
Because, if one's good, why not two?
Um, and I think you'll
very rapidly get into this.
Case 2 and so I would be
prepared to have 2 councils.
Okay.
1 would be a council assembled of
people who are in there every day.
? Get me a frontline service desk person.
Convince the service manager to give you
somebody like an hour a week or something.
But the people that actually work on
the thing, because there's going to
be lots of Intel they can give you,
but then the second stakeholder council
is more like the VP level of the org.
You know what I mean?
So you could talk big picture stuff.
Like what can the CMDB do for all of us?
Versus the more in the trenches
people be like, well, it sucks that
all these tasks go to the wrong places.
CJ: Yeah,
Duke: And it's the same
conversation kind of CMDB.
How can it help you?
But it's from a different angle,
a different facet on the gem.
Yeah.
CJ: I get exactly what you're saying.
what you're talking about?
Really?
It's like an executive stakeholder
council as well as a champion
council, which is a level below
that a little bit more, people
with boots on the ground, right?
Who are actually doing the work.
And utilizing the system day to day.
. So they could give a little bit more
tactical feedback , and tactical ideas
where at the executive level right
now, we're talking about aligning the
platform with the business outcomes.
And I'll tell you like it's three things,
that people buy service now for, and
, it is to make money is to save money
or is to decrease slash manage risk.
And so when you're talking at that
executive level, , the platform's
going to start to align with one
of those three buckets, right?
Or it should.
And if it's not, that's where you
want to steer the conversation.
And then, as you start to align, those
potential, , project implementations with
those buckets, then that starts to shower
down to that next level of stakeholder
council where now we're talking about,
, why are all these tasks going this place?
Maybe the question is, why
do we even have these tasks?
Right?
Who's using them?
What are we using them for?
Right.
You know,
, Duke: you definitely get to, , deburr the
tool when you, when you, when you talk to
the people who actually use it every day.
You just find out where the stuff is.
But , where I've seen this most recently
is that , the front liners have way
more to say straight out the gate.
And in contrast, the VP council, which I
thought for sure would be the most, , not
contentious, but you know what I mean?
They'd have more critical things to say
, and they'll want more out of the app.
But they were saying things
like, we don't even know what
capabilities are available to us.
What a golden opportunity to be a
service now, anything and you're, and
VP level stakeholders are like, you
know what, we don't even know this tool
well enough to know what to ask for.
Wow.
Am I ever going to make your day?
CJ: yeah, you know, dude, that's an
interesting, , position to be in, because
the first thing you start thinking
about is, oh, you don't know service.
Now, let me tell you service now.
But then there's another way
of thinking about that too.
It's in that way is I don't
think I know the business enough.
Yeah.
and what I mean by that is when a
VP level C suite level check writing
level person says to you, I don't
know your tool well enough to give
you direction on how to use it.
My thought is how do I make the most of
this 15 minutes you're about to give me
to under, to make you understand that we
need to devote a lot more resources to
this thing, because it's going to take
whatever you care about and turn it to 10.
Right.
So I got to understand more about
what you care about so that I'm
not showing you asset management.
If you care about, , P.
P.
M.
Duke: Yeah.
Yeah.
CJ: And that is 1 of those things.
When you do get that green light that,
we don't know this at well enough
to even know what it can do for us.
Ooh, you get the fingers going
like, yeah, but let's make sure
we we're targeting that too.
Right.
Duke: That's why you should always have a
PowerPoint going on with your daydreams.
How would I sell it?
Somebody just said, Hey.
Give me an elevator pitch on what
you do, just pull that thing out.
I'm glad you asked.
CJ: Right.
Right.
Glad you asked, you know, I've been
working at this company for five
years and these are the places where
I've seen, we've been falling down.
This is how service now
can help you in those guys.
Yeah.
Boom, boom, boom, boom.
Right.
, Duke: I got a couple other
kind of tactical points.
CJ: go for it.
Duke: okay.
So when you're at the VP level,
let's call it the strategic council.
Okay.
CJ: Yep.
Duke: And then the other one, let's
call it the tactical council, right?
That's
CJ: I like that strategic versus tactical.
I like that.
Duke: Okay, so get this on the tactical
council talk tactics and strategy
because I think everybody wants to make
the big picture manifest right there.
Yes.
I'm buried in stuff.
No, I don't know what all
these dang FC tasks are.
Well, what?
I'm not supposed to work on the rhythm
like, deal with all that stuff, but
also talk strategy layer with them.
If we all, agree to this, this is how the
org gets faster, better, and eventually
the weight moves off of all of us.
And people I found respond
really well to that, but at the
strategic layer only be strategic.
Cause they'll say stuff
like, , how can we improve UX?
That was one , on one of my
customers , latest meetings.
We need to make sure that the customer
experience is very, very good.
The communication is very, very open
and, just so, and, I was helping
them craft a deck and it was just like,
, here's the 36 Project tasks we have
in the system to talk about UX and the
things that we might want to do and the
things that we already, I'm like, no,
CJ: Yeah.
None of that matters.
Duke: yeah.
Don't don't talk about the 36
things that we are or can do.
In terms of features, right?
We're going to turn on notification
digest and we're going to, you
know, just, no, just like we're
doing a notification overhaul.
One thing,
CJ: Right.
Duke: Make it broad categories and don't
get them in the weeds of the features
because there's this sense of, um,
what's, I don't have a good
metaphor for it, but it's kind
of like, there's a tipping point,
where that person looks busy.
. And , it looks good in their favor
because they're clearly getting
stuff done and they're on the ball.
Right.
But there's a certain level of detail
about what the work is that they're
doing and they're busy where it
starts paying negative dividends.
CJ: Yeah, I think if I'm reading you
right, like it's a, I don't necessarily
need to know like every percentage of
your 150 percentage points of utilization.
Right.
What I need to know is overall,
like how you're moving the needle.
Duke: Oh, I got it.
I got the metaphor.
I got the metaphor.
Okay, if I tell you, uh, I'm gonna
spend the weekend organizing my house.
You're kind of like good for you, right?
But if you saw my house and you saw
that I was a hoarder you'd be like That
means nothing like you're a hoarder.
It's hopeless.
Like this is hopeless at a certain
level of mess It's hopeless.
So , don't expose that.
Think like talk strategy
layer only is all I'm saying.
CJ: I got you.
I got you.
Here's the bonus points too.
, if there's a way.
To tie those buckets of things
that you're going to like the
project, the notification project,
we're going to enhance, , internal
communications by revamping the
notification structure of our service.
Now.
If you could map that to
an organizational goal.
When you're talking to
strategy level, right?
Then all of a sudden, you've
got a little bit more gravitas
on the reason for that project.
Duke: Yeah.
And this is another tip.
Shout out to Kristen Reeves
for giving me this one.
, if you're going to go to either
council and they express things that
interest them, like we don't have
any idea what capabilities we do have.
when we get to the next council
, when we list stuff out, be sure to
tell them if there's an initiative
underway and what phase it's in.
CJ: Oh, yeah.
Okay.
, Duke: there's a lot of capabilities
that ServiceNow can do.
Take the CMDB.
We're actually in the
middle of a CMDB project.
We're in the build phase,
CJ: Right.
Duke: right?
We could do asset management.
We're currently in the
planning phase for that.
CJ: Right.
Duke: And , not only does it allow
you the opportunity to say , look at
all these awesome things that we can
do, but also your forward thinking
ness about where they're actually at.
Like, how close are we to achieving that?
CJ: And then also to allow that
strategy council to weigh in on those
and say, of the things that you've
shown me, I think there's heavy,
, anticipation for project number 2.
Is there any way we can put a little bit
more resources behind that so that we
can take it up a priority level, right?
Allows you to give them that transparency,
that insight into the organization
and the work that's being done.
So then they can weigh in on
the priority schedule too.
Duke: I hear that, yep.
And, it gives them the option to
right the ship in a way too, right?
Cause it's,
CJ: Yeah.
, Duke: why is this more
important than that?
All my customers are saying that
nobody ever calls them back..
And so why is the notification
overhaul taking priority over that?
Why can't you make people
call my customers back?
CJ: Yeah.
I mean, that's a good question too,
Duke: now we're talking SLA's or whatnot.
, CJ: or maybe you're talking about
the same projects, but you can answer
that question with how that project
is going to influence that concern.
Duke: yeah.
CJ: don't, you don't get there , if you're
not elevating that project to that level,
and causing that conversation to happen.
Ultimately, what it just comes down to
for me, Duke, . Is just communication,
. It's a winning strategy, , and you
might think you're doing enough,
you're probably not doing enough.
If you don't have these stakeholder
councils, you're not doing enough, right?
Because there's probably communication
, that's hidden from you because you
don't have the right people in a room
talking about whatever the thing is
that needs to be talked about, or just
in the room and having spontaneous
conversations happen in the course of
those directed conversations too, right?
It's just more communication that you can
get with around like the governing layer
of the product, ? The more you can align.
The product with the overall direction
of the business from top all the way
down, right from strategic level,
all the way down to the tactical one.
Duke: that makes me think of something.
Once you form these things up, I think be
careful about how labor you give somebody.
You should always formulate them at the
start as being an invitation, right?
Like we can talk about ways to
make your life better because one
thing I think people miss a lot
is that The ServiceNow app in an
org is not there for its own sake.
CJ: Ah, yes.
Duke: You know what I mean?
Like,
CJ: I know.
Duke: so , you have to make it about how
they're going to benefit, not how much
better it's going to be for the ServiceNow
platform and your team if they just.
, fill in the blank, whatever,
CJ: Yep.
Yeah.
Right.
Duke: let, you know, too, because, , I've
been in this situation where there
was , a performance cleanup, right?
Senior leadership said, no,
there's way too much old crap.
There's way too much busted.
Everybody's got to get in
here and sweep your old crap.
And the service now team has to lead it.
In lieu of having other process ownership.
So it's like the teams are
like, Hey, why do we care about
making your team look better?
Right?
I'm super busy.
CJ: Right.
Duke: And so, there's a delicate
communication style that you
have to let them know that it's
for their benefit, not yours.
But also be cognizant of the fact that
don't ask them to do things for you.
Do things for them.
CJ: That's the philosophy of
making your partners rich.
, if we use networking as an example.
. We always say you should network, you
should get more people in your network.
Right.
And most people think, yeah, I
should get more people in my network
so that they can do stuff for me.
And that's not how networking works.
? You get more people in your network
so that you have more people
who might ask you for stuff.
And maybe you've got more
chances to deliver favors.
And as you deliver more favors, you got
more people who look to you as somebody
who can do things for people and they
start wanting to do things for you.
Duke: Oh man.
We've talked about that way earlier , in
CJ and the Duke to like the secret
economy in the service now world,
where it's kind of like, , I've seen
Corey publicly help people and Corey's
coming to me with a question, so I'm.
Paying off or you know what I mean?
Like
CJ: Yep.
Duke: so I'm going to take care
of Corey because Corey takes care
of people and some of those people
might take care of me and vice versa.
And yeah, you
CJ: thing here, right?
Like, just like you said, you know, it's
not, you know, the work is like, I'm busy.
I can't do work.
That's benefiting you.
Yes, you can.
Right, because you, if you doing
that work, that's going to benefit
another group is going to , bring
that bounty back to you in so many
ways that you can't even anticipate.
. And, , if everyone is engaging in
these reciprocal actions, , all of a
sudden a rising tide lifts all ships.
Hey, that's just how I look at it.
it's just the reason why I
try to pick generosity over,
whatever the opposite of it is.
Duke: it so often.
You forgot what the opposite is called.
CJ: I couldn't think of a, of a,
of a good word that would, yeah,
whatever the opposite is called.
Duke: Yeah, I hear that.
I hear that.
I think you're going to be surprised
to like, super high performance
is really boils down to doing a
stupendous amount of small things.
Very, very well.
CJ: yeah, I'd agree with that.
Duke: You're going to be
surprised by the amount of.
Stuff that the organization doesn't
know about service now, both
at that VB level, I didn't know
it did asset management, right.
Or in the front lines,
like, what do you mean?
I'm not supposed to.
Reassign the rhythm or,
you know what I mean?
Just all this stuff that they don't know.
What do you mean?
There's favorites.
What do you mean?
I can build my own reports.
Like you'll be so shocked by
the amount , of little stuff.
There's just, nobody knows.
Nobody gets, nobody does.
Right.
And, at the start, it might
feel like, Oh my goodness.
We're buried in this kind of stuff,
but it's okay because you get to
solve that they're easy solves.
They're easy, easy solves.
, CJ: for me, it just highlights, , that
service now costs a lot of money.
Yeah.
And I don't think we think
about that aspect enough, right?
Like that, it, you know,
serves now cost a lot of money.
So the more you can do with it, the
better it is for your business, right?
The better it is for you
as an individual, right?
And I think that just has to be one of,
I don't know if it's the North star,
but maybe it's in the sky somewhere.
Duke: Yeah, I, I put that right beside
because only a couple people pay for it.
You know what I mean?
Or , feel like they've paid for it.
CJ: Right.
Duke: Like the service desk.
Nobody's pulling out any of
their wallets to contribute to
the service now fund, right?
So, so there's a lot of people that
have to use service now that don't
have financial skin in the game.
They don't care if it costs a
million dollars or a dollar, but
they do care about the amount of
time they have to spend on it.
And the paradox of it all is from our
perspective, it's raw, raw ServiceNow.
Look at all the different things you
can quantify and measure and improve
and automate and blah, blah, blah.
But to the average ServiceNow user,
this is a bureaucratic, , this
is like dental checkups level of
Of excitement.
It's just I don't want to do this.
I don't want to get a dental
checkup in the same way.
I don't want to go into service
now and log the fact that it's a
bureaucratic time suck on them.
, CJ: and I think that gets lost
to , the, one of the goals of any
service now project has to be to
make sure the product is easy to use
by the people who need to use it.
And part of that, it means not
just making it look clean and
slick when you land on the page.
But what is the obvious next step for
the person you designed that page for?
Are we ever showing them that?
And look, I'm not a UI UX guy.
I don't know all these paradigms
and so on and so forth.
But that doesn't mean that that Can't
be one of the things that guides me when
I'm building our user interfaces, right?
Like, what do I not want the person who
lands on this page to be thinking about?
And how can I make their next
click as easy as possible?
Right?
I don't want them thinking about what
they should do when they get here.
Like, if you get on a page and it's got
your, list of, open requests, I want
you to immediately see a big button
that says, view this request, right?
Duke: it's
CJ: view details or whatever.
Duke: yeah.
And there's no bottom rung on simplicity.
CJ: Yeah,
, Duke: I've never really had an occasion
where people said this is too simple.
All right.
That's 38 minutes of record.
So I think we're just going to
call it a quits right here and,
, work on getting a proper outro.
CJ: Yeah, absolutely.
Duke: All right.
We'll see you on the next one.