Lion Counseling Podcast

šŸŽ™ļø Episode 43 | Are We Catastrophizing the Rise of AI? A Christian Counseling Perspective

AI is advancing fastā€”and for many men, itā€™s triggering anxiety about jobs, purpose, meaning, and the future of humanity itself. Are we headed for paradiseā€¦ or a Terminator-style nightmare?

In this episode of the Lion Counseling Podcast, Mark Odland and Zack Carter tackle the fear-driven thinkingsurrounding AI, using a viral Joe Rogan & Elon Musk clip as a springboard. From a Christian counseling perspective, they unpack why our brains catastrophize, how to think more clearly about worst-case scenarios, and where real hope and meaning come fromā€”especially during the Christmas season.
This is an honest, thoughtful, and occasionally humorous conversation about fear, faith, and how to stay grounded in an uncertain world.

In this episode, youā€™ll learn:
  • Why AI triggers catastrophic thinking in otherwise rational men
  • How to use CBT to walk yourself through worst-case, best-case, and most-likely scenarios
  • What ā€œcatastrophizingā€ actually isā€”and why your brain does it
  • How faith provides grounding when technology creates uncertainty
  • A surprisingly effective strategy called ā€œThank Your Brainā€ (ACT-based)
  • Why your brain is not the enemyā€”even when it feels like it is
  • How Christmas reframes fear, control, and the future
šŸ“˜ Get Markā€™s free book: Escape the Cage ā€“ A Path of Deep Healing for Men
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Book a free consult with Mark or Zack:
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šŸ’¬ Question for you:
What worries you most about AIā€”and which fear do you think your brain might be exaggerating?

About the Lion Counseling Podcast
The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men break free, heal deep, and become the men they were created to be. Hosted by licensed Christian counselors, each episode blends psychology, faith, and real-world insight to help men lead with clarity, courage, and emotional maturity.

New episodes drop every Tuesday.

Creators and Guests

Host
Mark Odland
Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist
Host
Zack Carter
Zack Carter is a Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling LLC.

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Zack Carter:

Everyone to the Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Odland, founder of Lion Counseling and certified EMDR therapist. And I'm joined by Zach Carter, counselor and coach, where our mission is to help men to break free, to heal deep and become the lions they were created to be. Well in today's episode, get ready because I have no idea what we're talking about. Zach is going to am I mean surprise me not ambush, Surprise me.

Zack Carter:

And you guys can all just watch the circus. So alright, Zach. Laid on me. What what what is happening today?

Zack Carter:

This is this is super exciting because we've never done this before. I haven't told Mark as he said about what we're gonna talk about, but it's Christmas. It's the Christmas season. I've got a surprise gift for him. And so today, the topic is going to be catastrophizing about the rise of AI and how it will affect all of us.

Joe Rogan:

So I recently came across this clip that we're gonna play

Zack Carter:

K. On Elon Musk and Joe Rogan. Maybe you've seen it. If you haven't seen it, it'll be super interesting to get your thoughts. But I know a lot of people out there are worried about, Hey, what does this mean about jobs?

Zack Carter:

What does this mean about the economy? Are we about to enter paradise or hell? Like what the heck is gonna happen? You know, is it, you know, is Terminator two about to happen? And so that's what Mark and me are going to solve today, psychologically speaking.

Zack Carter:

So let me get

Zack Carter:

our clip. Here we go.

Elon Musk:

I'm not

Elon Musk:

working on on a on a phone.

Joe Rogan:

Because you might be the only person that could

Elon Musk:

Yeah.

Joe Rogan:

Get people off of the Apple platform.

Elon Musk:

Well, I can tell you where I think things are gonna go, which is that it's we're not gonna have a phone or or or in the traditional sense. What we call a phone will really be an edge node for AI inference for for AI video inference with, you know, with some radios to to obviously connect, to but but essentially, you'll have AI on the server side communicating to an AI on your your device, you know, formerly known as a phone, and generating real time video of anything that you could possibly want. And I think that that there won't be operating systems. There won't be apps in the future. There won't be operating systems or apps.

Elon Musk:

It'll just be you've got a device that is there for the screen and audio and for I'm not

Elon Musk:

working on on a on a phone.

Joe Rogan:

K. So

Zack Carter:

half of what he's saying, have no idea. I there's a reason I talk to people for a living. But if I'm understanding what Elon is saying is essentially, AI is gonna replace everything. Why have a podcast when you can hit a button on your phone and say, like, create a podcast about catastrophizing for me right now. Why be a musician when you could click a button and say, hey, play me cool pop music that sounds like Blink one hundred eighty two or Rihanna, whoever's popular right now.

Zack Carter:

They're Blink one I eighty know I'm, like, dating myself. That's awesome. So, you know, why why create movies when you can click AI? Hey. I want a Mission Impossible ask movie right now.

Zack Carter:

So, yeah, Mark, why are we still doing this podcast?

Zack Carter:

It's a good question.

Joe Rogan:

It's a

Zack Carter:

it's a good question, Zach. So this could be naive. Okay. But, you know as an owner of a couple counseling clinics, have had to think some about this question, right, because I want to stay ahead of the curve, I want to recognize patterns, I want to see if we're all gonna be out of a job in six months, right? And I my sense is that a couple things are gonna happen.

Zack Carter:

AI is gonna dominate more than people expect, and some people will feel blindsided by that or kind of or maybe it's just like a frog getting boiled in the you know, slowly and you don't know what's happening, but eventually you wake up and two years later Mhmm. Everything looks different. Mhmm. But I'd like to believe that God wired us to be in real relationship with real people and that that deep need is never gonna go away. And so even though AI may be able to sim well, will will be able to simulate, created videos of a virtual therapist who you is indistinguishable, for example, from a fake one or a real one.

Zack Carter:

You can't tell the difference. I think there's gonna be something about real human connection that we're gonna crave. And if it doesn't happen automatically, you know, the Impact Theory podcast, the host posits that it's gonna eventually create a subculture of, like, religious rebels who essentially reject technology, almost like a modern version of Amish to kind of preserve what they see as just this, like, crazy thing that's happening that's kind of just like and then I think there's also a subset of people who are already so suspicious of control by different people in power that there is a hesitancy to kind of, like, go all in. And then people some people just say, let them. That's our other podcast.

Zack Carter:

Check it out, guys. Just let them because they already know everything anyway. The only way that that can be off the grid is if I stop using a phone, and some people will. Right? So I don't know.

Zack Carter:

Those are my some of initial thoughts. Zach, will lead a terminator? Do I know what a note is? Like Elon said, maybe a little bit, not too much. I kind of know.

Zack Carter:

But

Zack Carter:

I was like, why are we using radio signals? I was, like, lost for half of it, and then he, like, hits you with the boom at the end. He's like, yeah. So so essentially, we won't need anything other than our AI buddy. And I

Joe Rogan:

was like, oh, that's what you're that's what you're ending with. So yeah. So as as I've, you know, love the optimism Uh-oh.

Zack Carter:

Let me speak to the pessimists out there. Alright. Alright.

Joe Rogan:

So because I I I do like to give practical things. And, you know, as I've thought like, I've got a

Zack Carter:

little bit of fears here and there. I I I think what I hope is that we see in history that technology disrupts jobs and then new jobs are created. And so I'm hoping that that will continue. Elon talks in this particular episode with Joe Rogan around how he feels like people won't need jobs. They can have them if they want.

Zack Carter:

But ultimately, it's gonna be high basic income for everybody and that people will, like, get to do what they want. So what I kind of imagine is like being back in college, like, hey, we had, like, jobs, kind of you got paid a little bit for it, but you're like around friends, you're doing hobbies. And I'm like, okay, so that's probably best case scenario. But for people that are worrying about like, but what do I do about meaning? What do I do about purpose?

Elon Musk:

Yeah.

Zack Carter:

I've thought through this. So one of my favorite questions to ask, and so I encourage the listener to ask these questions to yourself is questions that are designed to help with catastrophizing, playing out the worst possible situation is the definition. And so you start with, well, what is the worst case scenario? And so let's say the worst case scenario is you lose your job. Yep.

Zack Carter:

Let's say the worst case scenario for us is that AI replaces creator content and people stop listening. Okay?

Elon Musk:

Yeah.

Zack Carter:

How would we cope with that? And so if you're out there, you need to think through like, okay, like let's sit in it. Let's genuinely play out the worst possible scenario. You lose your job. Elon talks about how jobs that involve atoms is the way he frames it, jobs that involve atoms.

Zack Carter:

But essentially like jobs where you work with your hands. So like plumbers, carpenters, painters, these kinds of things. So I'm like, all right, you know, if worse comes to worse and people hire an AI counselor and talk to them and that counselor can do a better job than me, then it's like, all right, well then what's the next thing I'm going to do? I guess if I have to, I'll work with my hands. I don't prefer that, but I will.

Zack Carter:

What's the worst case that happens if it replaces this podcast? And I've seen where for me, I have been able to learn a lot about psychology and helping people and just prepping for these and just really building up my own knowledge base for the people that I'm working with right now until AI replaces me. And so there have been benefits along the way. And so it has filled my time with something that's productive as opposed to video games or TV or whatever. Okay, so that's the first step is you ask yourself, what's the worst case scenario and how would you cope?

Zack Carter:

So I'm showing everyone this is literally my thought process and how I'm coping and how I'm playing out the worst case scenario. What's the best case scenario is the next question. So so you play that out. So I play it out the best case. Oh, well, it's like college.

Zack Carter:

Like, college is one of my favorite times in life and, like, I get to be around friends and family and, like, we do some hobbies. I, like, learn some stuff that I wanna learn about. Maybe I have a job where I sit at a desk and greet people and say hi and form connections and like, cool, everything's good. Last question you ask yourself is what's the most likely thing to happen? It's a little tougher, like

Joe Rogan:

you said. Is it boiling the frog slowly over time or

Zack Carter:

is it it gets cut up and cut up really quickly, the heat? And I don't know. So the the most likely is probably that I I I would guess the frog boiling if I had to take a guess, I don't know. But then, like, then the most likely is that I'm gonna have to learn to be able to adapt over time and that, okay, I'm a counselor for a certain period of time until AI replaces my job. And then, like, I would go find a new job.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. Maybe easier said than done, but, yeah, that's that's

Zack Carter:

what you do. Well, that's I like how you walk people through that, Zach. Right? Because and you're so good at that with your clients. Right?

Zack Carter:

Because it's like you take this big fear Mhmm. And then you have to, like, take a step back. Mhmm. And say, okay. Let's analyze that fear.

Zack Carter:

Maybe you're right. What is the worst case scenario? How would you handle that? What's the best case scenario? Could you be surprised?

Zack Carter:

What's the most realistic scenario? How do we plan for that or prepare for that to the best of our ability? Right? And we live in a world, like Elon said, full of atoms. Right?

Zack Carter:

And so there's stuff, it's tangible, it's real, and we can't minimize this, the reality of this world and providing for our families by over spiritualizing everything. There's there's work to be done. There's, you know, families to feed and to provide for and kids to take care of and all this stuff. Right? But at the same time, you brought up Christmas.

Zack Carter:

Right? So I'll I'll preach a little bit here. In the midst of whatever happens, whatever happens, I think about another I mean, is literally the Christmas story. There is a group of guys who work with their hands and they're sitting out in the fields taking care of sheep. Not a glamorous job.

Zack Carter:

Right? They're just doing their thing and then the angel appears as the gospel of Luke says, right? The angel appears and this is not a nice angel in a Christmas pageant, know, with a cute girl who's dressed up with the wings and like the fake halo. No, angels are terrifying. Right?

Zack Carter:

You do not wanna encounter an angel in most places in scripture. Right? So it says, here's a little snippet. Right? An angel of the lord appeared to them, and the glory of the lord showed around them, and they were terrified.

Zack Carter:

But the angel said to them, do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. Today in the town of David, a savior has been born to you. He is the messiah, the lord. This will be a sign for you.

Zack Carter:

You will find a baby wrapped in clothes lying in a manger. Right? And even as much as I love philosophy and theology, there's something about just hearing the good news of, like, there's technology, there's nodes, there's AI, there's all there's a baby wrapped in wrapped in cloth lying in a manger and so some of our hope is embedded in the atoms of this life and the real world stuff and then there's also this sense of like whatever happens we have hope in something greater too or at least at least at least I do and I encourage our guys out there listening to think about that as well is like where can we find our hope that's not just tied to this world because if we can if we can have strength in that then bring it on world right whatever happens losing a job even death itself that's not totally the end right that's not the end of the story so that was a tangent you maybe weren't expecting Zach for me to get all preachy honest but but I think you know there's a lot of anxiety you know holidays can be joyful but they can also be painful.

Zack Carter:

We think about lost loved ones, we think about uncertainty, we think about how much we are aren't spending on presence and AI right and all the bad things that can happen so I think being grounded in as you laid out so well, rash use the rational brains that god gave us, put things in their proper place, and then try to double down on where can we find security in the midst of the unknowns, if that makes sense.

Zack Carter:

Yeah, that's a good man. And it reminds me of when we have different questions that come up with different parts of the Bible, does it contradict itself? Is God angry, vengeful? Is he kind and loving? Like, like, what is it?

Zack Carter:

And you're trying to figure the Bible out and trying to figure all the things out. And I've heard it said that ultimately. Did God send Jesus to the earth? Is that did that really happen? Did that person then get crucified for our sins?

Zack Carter:

And then did he raise from the dead? Because if you believe that everything else, if you don't get answers for every single question around the Bible can fall back to that. It's like, Okay, ultimately this is what my faith is in. And then everything else falls into place. So you're kind of doing the fall into place method of like, okay, so Terminator happens.

Zack Carter:

Is God sovereign? Does He love us? Did He send us on to die for us? And like, ultimately do we have someone that is taking care of us and watching over us both in this life and the next?

Zack Carter:

Yeah.

Zack Carter:

So well said. So that's strategy number two. We'll get one more for you guys. So you get a bonus strategy for Christmas. Alright.

Zack Carter:

So we've got the CBT. We'll call it the j the JC strategy.

Zack Carter:

What's called the baby you know, if anyone's seen Talladega Nights, the baby Jesus.

Joe Rogan:

The baby Jesus? Yeah. I pray the baby Jesus. He's my favorite. Yes.

Joe Rogan:

So the baby Jesus strategy.

Zack Carter:

Yep.

Joe Rogan:

Number two. Number three and last strategy, we'll we'll end on

Zack Carter:

this is the the thank your brain strategy.

Elon Musk:

Okay.

Zack Carter:

So this is one I don't I don't think we've talked about. Sounds really strange on the front end, but when you kinda understand what's going on, it it it makes makes more sense. So we have an understanding, we've talked a lot about in this podcast that ultimately the brain's primary purpose is to keep us from dying, just not die. Yeah. And the brain is a learning machine and it's a pattern recognition machine.

Zack Carter:

And so over the course of your life, it intakes inputs and it memorizes those inputs. And so if the inputs are, you're dumb, you're ugly, you're lazy, whatever, we start to tell ourself those things, whether it comes from friends, family, eventually ourselves. And so the brain has learned to act a certain way based on the things that have happened in our life. And so if you have an understanding that the brain is trying to do its best to help you survive, and if at one point you learn that if I get an F on a test, I call myself stupid, that makes me feel bad, then I study more. Okay.

Zack Carter:

Then that's the strategy I need to use is call myself stupid over and over and over. And eventually that strategy stops working or it doesn't work in an optimal way. Right. Even if it worked initially. And so sometimes you do cognitive behavioral therapy thing, you pray to God, you do these strategies and you're like still having thoughts and images come up.

Zack Carter:

Sure.

Zack Carter:

You thank your brain. You're like, you understand that the brain is there to help you, but sometimes it's just too much. It's like a parent that doesn't realize you're a grown adult and is like still trying to tell you what to do. And you're like, thanks. But like, I got it.

Zack Carter:

Like, it's coming from a good place. I know that you love me. I know that you care about me, but like, I got it. Like, I'm going to be okay. Thank you.

Joe Rogan:

Right?

Zack Carter:

And so we can do the same thing with our brain. And so this is part of acceptance and commitment therapy. It's a strategy from that particular therapy style. Interesting. So you thank your brain, Hey, thanks for letting me know.

Zack Carter:

Like, I but I got it. And so the combination of these three strategies should help some with the catastrophizing over AI, the rise of the Terminator, and the end of all humanity.

Zack Carter:

That is so good. That is so I haven't heard it phrased quite like that, Zach, but I I really like that because I've actually used a different version of that with EMDR, with with conceptualizing it just just ever so slightly different, but it's almost like if the version of you that developed that original coping strategy was say twelve years old, I have to get an a or else I'm stupid or whatever it is. There can also be not just I got this, but compassion. And almost almost I'm proud of you. Like, almost so so I it sounds a little cheesy, but I'll encourage people to imagine putting their arm around that younger kid and being like, hey.

Zack Carter:

Thanks. Like, you are amazing. You're you're tough. You're creative. That strategy got you from here to here.

Zack Carter:

From, you know, back then age 12 to age 35 or whatever it is. Dude, this is not the job for a kid. You've done this for way too long. I got this. You can just play, man.

Zack Carter:

Just just chill out. Hang out with me. Right? It's a metaphor. Right?

Zack Carter:

It's a metaphor. But if people can connect with that emotionally, of doing that, can be kind of a powerful shift for people and thanking, yeah, love that. Thank your brain. Your brain is not the enemy. It can feel like that sometimes.

Zack Carter:

But what if your brain is just actually pretty amazing there's a high likelihood that the things you're most sensitive about now, things that get you in trouble now actually were an amazing survival strategy at some point earlier in your life. They just that part of you never got the on the job training to kind of grow up and kinda pick up more skills. And so it's just not working anymore, like you said so well.

Zack Carter:

Exactly. Yeah. Well, and I I love that you you're kinda talk I think that's parts work that you're kind of

Zack Carter:

Yep.

Zack Carter:

Yep. Yeah. So like that's part called parts work. You can

Joe Rogan:

give that part a name. And I have clients Uh-oh. Who have now given their brain a name. That's Brian. And they flip the two letters and they're like, thanks, And like, it's amazing.

Joe Rogan:

Like and so now I'm I'm teaching clients to call their brain Brian because one of them started doing it. It's been amazing. Like, clients love it. So if thanking your brain wasn't weird enough, start calling your brain Brian. And then you'll be like, yeah.

Joe Rogan:

My the counselor I listened to online told me to start talking to myself. It's it's not weird. And, yeah, I call myself Brian. I like it.

Zack Carter:

I I prefer to have my clients call their brain Zach. Is that okay?

Joe Rogan:

So the mean the mean version of their brain is Zach? Oh, no. My wife my wife and her family says that when my baby looks angry, she looks like me. I mean, she's, like, cute and cuddly. They're like, oh, she looks so much like you to my wife.

Joe Rogan:

They're like, yeah. She looks angry. Yeah. I see where she gets that from Zach. I'm like, what?

Joe Rogan:

What is happening? When am I angry? So anyways. Merry Christmas everybody.

Zack Carter:

Man,

Joe Rogan:

if As we wrap this. This is good. Anything else

Zack Carter:

on your end, Zach?

Joe Rogan:

I that's that's all I had.

Zack Carter:

We're gonna

Joe Rogan:

shoot from the hip today.

Zack Carter:

No. This is good. This is good. Well, we need a little I think we blended something very serious with some lightheartedness as well, which humor can be important in these things. And, yeah, appreciate all you listeners out there.

Zack Carter:

We got a lot of faithful guys who have really devoured this content and been in the game and are trying to improve themselves and we really respect that. We really respect you fellow Lions out there trying to be better husbands, fathers, friends, employees, bosses, right? And yeah, so we enjoy the conversation. If you wanna like, subscribe, throw in a comment, anything. I mean, give you a lot to think about with all this, all over the place with AI and Elon and, babies look angry.

Zack Carter:

I mean, there's there's a lot there. There's a lot there to comment on. So I'm just imagining now a baby with a beard like Zach. On that note, everybody

Elon Musk:

Oh, no.

Zack Carter:

On that on that note, God bless y'all, And until next time. Take care.

Zack Carter:

Merry Christmas, everybody.

Zack Carter:

Alright. Bye. Alright. Bye.