The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader

Driven, passionate, professional and insightful. Recently retired Emergency Response Team Leader Sgt. Major Seb Lavoie talks with Travis Bader about what it takes to live an extraordinary and meaningful life and what it takes to be a leader.

Follow Seb Lavoie on Instagram: https://instagram.com/slavccmdr

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What is The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader?

The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.

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Language: en-GB

I'm Travis Bader
and this is The

Silvercore Podcast.

Join me as I discuss
matters related to

hunting, fishing, and
outdoor pursuits with the

people in businesses that
comprise the community.

If you're a new to
Silvercore, be sure to

check out our website,
www.Silvercore.ca where

you can learn more about
courses, services, and

products that we offer
as well as how you can

join The Silvercore Club,
which includes 10 million

in north America wide
liability insurance, to

ensure you are properly
covered during your

outdoor adventures.

Today, I'm joined by
a modern day warrior,

retired RCMP Sergeant
Major Seb Lavoie, who

DM'd me that rather
intriguing message.

"I'm about to change the
face of leadership and

policing in the country.

Do you want this scoop?"

Seb, welcome to The
Silvercore Podcast.

Good morning.

Thank you for having me.

Good morning.

Wow.

So for the listeners,
and you've been doing a

few podcasts recently,
I've been watching the

progression over the
last couple of years

of the podcasts that
you've been doing.

You've got a very
interesting background.

You've probably told
it a large number of

times now, but would
you like to give a

quick thumbnail just
so the listeners have

an idea of who you are?

Yeah, absolutely.

So I'm, Seb Lavoie, I,
um, retired recently

retired from the
RCMP after 20 years.

I spent the majority of
that in, um, tactical

units, um, either in a
covert capacity or on the

Lower Mainland emergency
response team, which is

a full time, uh, tactical
unit here in, in Canada,

NBC, it's now referred
to as the integrated

emergency response team.

Cause there, there are a
few municipal departments

that are a part of it.

And, um, I spent 13
years on the team, seven

years as a team leader,
um, 2019 moved on to

become the divisional
Sergeant Major for the

province of British
Columbia and retired two

and a half years later.

Wow.

On top, on top of
my, uh, as far as

I was going to go.

Wow.

So very storied career.

And you know, some
people might look at this

and say, man, this guy
must have horse shoes.

Look at this, he goes
to Depot, and I think

you were stationed
in Tofino to begin

with, beautiful place.

Do you surf?

I do not.

Oh.

Yeah.

I do not.

I had, uh, you know, I
tried while I was there

and, um, I had a near
drowning experience and,

and really, to be honest,
we, we just didn't have

the time at the time,
the numbers just weren't

conducive to us having
the ability to kind

of go out and really
enjoy the outdoors.

It took me years to go
back there and really

look at it and go,
man, what have I done?

Near drowning experience.

Was that just
swimming or out there.

No.

Surfing?

Surfing.

Really?

Yeah.

It, can.

I get a few of those
actually I have

another one diving
and one surfing.

Really?

Yeah.

I've had a couple a near
drowning experiences.

And it's not quite what
most people, it's not

how you would imagine
a drowning experience.

When you actually
start to drown, it's

actually rather relaxing.

It's, there, there's
I don't want to

say panic about it.

Maybe there is, um, uh,
organized, um, energy

to try and stay afloat
and not go under.

But once the oxygen
starts to deplete and

it feels like anyways,
that you're inhaling

the water, um, things
get a little bit calmer.

I don't know if you had
the same experience.

I wasn't quite
that close no.

Thankfully.

Well, I guess where
I was going with that

was, well, some people
might say that you have

horseshoes because you're
deployed in these great

places and you've had
some very story career

in some very interesting,
uh, deployments.

I look at this as
something that you've

strove for, that you've
worked very hard for.

And while there may
be an element of luck

somewhere along the way.

I that's only because
preparation and all

the prior planning that
you put together kind

of fell into place.

And now as a retired
Sergeant Major, you have

started a new company,
Raven Strategic, can

you tell me about this?

Correct.

Uh, this is, uh,
evidently a work in

progress now, but,
um, what it is now in

sort of the bulk of
what I'm doing is, uh,

leadership, sort of.

There's I have three
modules, so three

different modules.

So one of them is a
leadership introspection,

and this is a very,
very recent here.

Right.

One of them is
essentially a leadership

introspection where we go
in, whether it's a, uh,

in a police environment
or in a corporate

environment, and
essentially use, uh, my

experience in, in dealing
with critical incidents

where consequences are
dire as in the, how the,

you know, the leadership
is held to the fire so to

speak all along the way,
as they are developing

to go and assist other
leaders in looking

inwards in, in, instead
of, when assessing their

own leadership, instead
of looking out and

deflecting and disabling
and having an ego.

So what we're doing
is basically what

can you do today to
make your leadership

better without, without
waiting for anybody

to inject on in your
world and, and provide

you with some tools.

Right.

Very cool.

Yeah.

And so that's one part,
I also very, very,

uh, sort of passionate
about anything that has

to do with combatives
and, um, uh, you know,

uh, combative tactics
for those that don't

know, obviously a police
defensive tactics or,

or, or martial arts,
so to speak, but in the

context specifically of
whatever, um, business

or police force or unit
we're I'm dealing with.

So that's one of
the parts that I

simply kept because
I just love doing it.

Well, you've been
doing that since

what, three years old.

Yeah.

It's been a
long, long time.

Yeah.

Three years old.

And you got into, and
you started martial

arts or was it JiuJitsu
immediately at three?

No, I started, I started
martial arts when I

was three and I was
traditional martial

arts, you know, and for
everybody's pleasure,

it was Kung Fu.

Right.

Right, so.

Hey, there you go.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

It was, it was a step
in and, and, um, you

know, it taught me
a bunch of valuable

lessons that I carried
over with me all along

the, along the journey.

And eventually sort
of went into more of

the Muay Thai stand up
striking and eventually

ended up in JiuJitsu,
which was about 2007.

Okay.

So in 2007 uh, Brazilian
JiuJitsu became

my primary focus.

Right.

Um.

Why was that?

Was that because of Royce
Gracie and all the, uh.

A hundred percent
it was, yeah.

I mean, in 93, evidently
when UFC started, we

actually got to see what
truly worked and what

didn't, and it was no
longer a theoretical, uh,

before that there was a
ton of theoretical ax to

grind about every single,
you know, style and who,

who was going to beat who
and everything was just

essentially opinions.

Right.

That was when, uh,
Akido ring king.

Sure.

Because Steven Segal
was on the big screen.

Right.

And to be honest, he
was pretty awesome.

Yeah.

I can't deny.

He's a weirdo, but.

He is definitely an
interesting individual,

but I can't deny, I
probably watched every

one of his videos up
until a certain point.

900 times.

Rewind, pause.

How did he do that move?

Yeah, I was a big Seagal
fan myself as well.

Yeah.

Favorite movie?

I would say probably
above the law.

Yeah?

That was his first
one wasn't it?

Yes, it was.

Yeah.

And then I really liked,
um, what's the one

with the twins again?

Jamaican twins.

On deadly ground.

On dead-, no, no, no.

Oh no, hard to kill.

Hard to kill.

That's right.

Yeah.

So good.

Everybody want go heaven.

Nobody want dead.

That one?

So good.

Anyways, we digressed
a little bit.

I like you already.

Um, yeah.

So with the martial
arts background, I had

had a little bit of
martial arts as well.

Did kilkushen karate as
a kid and I hated it.

I've talked to
other people who got

into that and they
absolutely loved it.

Maybe it was my mindset.

Maybe it was the group
I was with, but I wanted

nothing to do with.

Uh, later on, I got
into, uh, Arnis and, uh,

JiuJitsu and I did some
Akido and because of

the Steven Seagal stuff
and, uh, the Muay Thai,

and I found a great deal
of value to the standup

work and the physical
conditioning, the cardio

work and all the rest
for the movie to I,

and I, I really enjoyed
the Arnis actually.

It was, um, uh, is
something I did for,

for quite some time.

But there were lessons
that people can learn

in martial arts that
are very applicable

to policing and
applicable to business.

Is that where you're
drawing some of your, uh,

your leadership training
or are you primarily

leaning on what you
learned through, uh, your

career with the RCMP?

Yeah.

Well, my leadership
journey started long

before that there was,
there was a stint in

the military and then
it rolled right into,

you know, being at the
academy where I was in

charge of my troop and it
rolled into leading use

of force programs, you
know, for the west coast.

And then it just, so
there was, there was a

long kind of tracking
history there, but you

are absolutely correct
when you were saying

that, uh, martial
arts have the, the,

the crossover so to
speak is, um, are

undeniable, right.

And, and, um, but
in, in terms of the

environment or setting
up an environment like

that is critical for, for
any gym or martial arts

studio, and we see it
over and over again, how

this is being failed and,
and, and the people that

are going in to attempt
a martial arts or to,

you know, to, to, to do
with everybody else is

doing that's seems to be
so great and then they

have a bad experience or
a negative experience.

And next thing you know,
it turns them off forever

martial arts, right?

So.

Right.

As studio, as martial
arts studio owners,

which I'm one of them,
um, we have a great

responsibility in, in, in
representing the martial

arts world and whatever
style that we are

teaching, um, and beauty
ambassador, and know

that if somebody comes to
you and they're treating

you in a, in a, they're
received in a welcomed,

in a family environment
with the respect and all

these other things, along
with the professional,

um, instructions,
eventually, if they move

on, they go somewhere
else, they carry

that along with them.

Versus this is a wrap.

Um, you know, I've tried
it then, like it done.

Right.

One and Done.

You talk about respect.

And some of these things
are just fundamental

core values that a
person's mother should

have taught them as a
youngster, but perhaps

not everybody has that.

The, that is one of the
places where martial

arts can really help
leaders I've found

is in instilling
a, a code of ethics

and some fundamental
values that are shared

amongst the community.

Uh, the physical
conditioning is a big

part of that for the,
the mental resiliency,

as well as your
physical resiliency, um.

Your studio.

Tell me a little bit
about that, where, I

didn't realize, I know
you had a gym for about

eight years, wasn't it?

You still have that?

Two.

Yeah.

Two gyms?!

Two.

Yeah.

I had two CrossFit gyms,
a Sheep Dog CrossFit

and Dogs Den CrossFit,
both, both of which

I'm no longer owner,
uh, owner of, of, but

I still coach at Sheep
Dog on the Sundays,

it's in Port Coquitlam.

My, my martial arts
studio is called

Ascension Martial
Arts and it's also

in Port Coquitlam.

And, um, I was going
somewhere with that,

um, in line with what
you were saying there,

what was it now?

Mental resiliency.

Yeah, the
resiliency piece.

Thank you.

Uh, yeah, the
resiliency piece.

I mean, highly
underrated.

Like we know that
adversity adds to the

resiliency bank, like
adversity in a controlled

fashion either creates
post-traumatic growth or

it creates post-traumatic
stress injury or, or

occupational stress
injuries in the case of

a professional setting.

And so what we
have is safety.

So no real risk for harm
aside from you know, the

odd, very rare injury
that, that, that can

happen anywhere in soccer
or baseball or whatever.

But what you have
is adversity.

You spar, you know,
especially in Brazilian

JiuJitsu, you, you,
you get the sparring in

and, and when you start
as a white belt, you

know, you're pretty much
everybody's punching

bag and it is safe.

It is safe, but you
are not winning.

Right.

And so it's difficult,
especially if you're

somebody that's generally
very successful and

you're generally very
successful quickly at

things that you do.

Or you've been in the
same field for many,

many years, you're a
subject matter expert.

And now you get
to test something

that's completely
out of comfort.

And next thing you know,
you're not winning, not

winning, not winning
as you're progressing.

And then you start
getting little wins

here and there and you,
you know, it's, it's

really, um, humbling
and that's a critical,

that's a critical piece.

Um, it's really humbling,
but it also shows you

that when you're having
a really bad day on the

mats, maybe two hours
later, you're back

and it's a greatest
day and it's weird.

Cause they're
the same day.

Yes.

Right.

W what did it was,
think it was E.H.

Chapin.

He said out of suffering
have emerged as

strongest souls than
those massive characters

are seared of scars.

And perhaps, perhaps
that can be a very

accurate statement.

And sometimes some
people just don't get up

from, from the scars and
they have a difficult

time rebounding.

Having those small
wins, having that

little light at the end
of the tunnel, that's

probably why people
golf actually, right?

Same sort of thing.

You get that
one good shot.

And then you suffer for
the next, for the rest

of the course, whacking
the ball everywhere.

But you need those
little success of wins

in order to build that,
that mental resiliency.

And now you built, if
I'm not mistaken, um,

the sort of standing on
the shoulders of giants

and using cumulative
work that's out there,

but you built a mental
resiliency program

yourself, didn't you?

That is correct.

Yeah.

It's called a
Leadership Through

Critical Circumstances.

And, um, you know, it,
it, um, evolved greatly

over the years, but
essentially what it was

to begin with was, um,
a program to re uh, to

support our memberships
and to support our police

officers going through
critical incidents,

whether it was shootings
or, you know, use of

force, major use of
force, or even some of

the things that are a
by-product of life as

it could be, you know?

Cause the way I like to
sort of the analogy I

make is imagine having
a bucket and every

single drop that you
put in there, whether

it's administrative
stress or marital

problems or problems
with, with the kids

or financial problems.

And then you get to the
office and there's a

caustic work environment
or a caustic culture.

You have this,
you have that.

And it keeps on
going until it,

until it's full.

And now you have any sort
of incident, especially

in a critical incident
realm and boom you're

overflowing right?

Right.

So our job was to
essentially poke holes

through that buckets
in any means necessary,

poke the holes so that
the water would flow

out and the water level
would stay low so that

we could send our people
out to do the tough work

did they have to do,
and then bringing them

back, because guess what?

Next week, in two weeks,
in three weeks there's

this other call and this
other call, and we're

talking about a team
that's full time that

has hundreds and hundreds
of operation a year.

So our guys are
not going anywhere.

Right.

So it's it, so
that's essentially

how this starts.

So I've heard, and can
correct me if, uh, if

you've heard otherwise,
but I've heard that

let's say the stress
of getting married, the

stress of, what would
otherwise be viewed

as a positive stress.

Will have a very
similar physiological

response on the body.

So whether somebody is
looking at an individual

who's constantly dealing
with negative stresses or

negative stresses, which
everybody's going to have

to one degree or another,
uh, combined with the

positive stresses, all
of that needs to be,

to be emptied from the
bucket, so to speak.

Stress, the body
really doesn't make

a big difference.

And I can even add to
that and say somebody

that trains really,
really hard on the

physical realm adds
to the stress as well.

Interesting.

And it is interesting
because it's

also an outlet.

Right.

Right?

So which one of the
greater goods, which one

is it for you and how
are you perceiving it?

So for example, if
we're going back, just

to kind of unpack that
a little bit, if we're

talking about say, and
I'm not a psychologist,

so bear with me here,
but you know, as part

of my research, I've,
I've, I've, um, linked

up with, uh, the Chicago
police department,

psychological unit, and
some of the work they had

done and, uh, and much,
much smarter people than

me along the way as part
of the research project.

So, um, but yeah,
when we're looking

at, uh, stress, even
positive stress, or

if it's even a thing.

It's stress and the
reason why you're

considering it positive
is because there was

a marriage in the end.

Right.

You know, and, and, and
that's the, the outcome.

So now we're, we're
outcome focused.

So there's a little bit
of outcome bias, but

the stress that leads
into the marriage,

isn't positive.

Right?

It's a positive event,
but there's distress

is still distress
is still, it takes

a toll on you right?

Interesting.

So it's a bit of
a, it's a bit of

semantics, I guess.

But ultimately the only
reason why there's stress

is it'd be the same as
saying, you know, we're

going to get, you're
going to get into a fight

and, um, it will go, all
you need to know is that

it will go your way and
when you finish, you win.

So, so, so the stress
of the encounter, is

that positive because
you're winning, you know?

Right.

So it's a, it's a
little bit, uh, it's

a little bit of, um,
it's, uh, it's, it's

a bit of a twisted
thought process, right?

Like.

It kinda is.

And the stress of a
fight, I've always.

Is typically the
anticipation or I

should say probably
always the anticipation

of the fight.

The fight itself
is another, a

stressful thing.

It's, you're in
it, you're in it.

And you act and you react
and you work in a way

that you've either been
trained or it's something

that comes instinctually.

But the anticipation
of that event is a

very stressful thing
for a lot of people.

And then the aftermath of
that and how you mentally

frame that event, was
that a positive event?

Is it socially
acceptable?

Is it accepted by
my supervisors?

By my, my crew around me?

Or am I now looked
at as a black sheep?

And I've seen from the
limited research that

I've done, when we talk
about critical incident

stress, and you talk
about, um, PTSD and these

different things, it's
that mental mind frame

that I've seen people be
able to walk away from

exact same incidents with
very different outcomes.

Yeah.

And I would say, I would
say, um, you know, in

support of that and what
compounds their ability

to do that is also what
was their resilience

bank at the time of the
incident and what kind of

adversity have they gone
through, through life

before getting there.

So, cause that also will
dictate how one person

will react and how the
other person will react.

So those are compounding
compounding things.

Right.

You have mindset, my
mindset, mind frame,

understanding their
purpose and you know,

all the other factors
that play into how

they're going to react
to the event and how

positive it is, but also
what was the ability to

sustain this level of
stress to begin with.

Right?

So, so the two kind
of mesh together.

So it's a very
interesting, uh.

Yeah, that, that
is interesting.

Cause when you
bring up, what is

the individual been
through ahead of time?

Now, some people can
go through something,

they can get beaten
down, they can get that

little bit of a win.

They can reframe that
situation in their

mind and then they
can start building

the resiliencies.

Other people will get
beaten down, beaten

down, beaten down,
and they never can get

that mindset right.

And consequently, two
people can have the

same adversity coming
up to a certain point.

And have two different
mental resiliencies.

How would, how would
you coach your team?

How would you suggest
to others to really

enhance their, their
mental resiliency?

Well, I'll just
speak to my, I'll

speak to my guys.

For example, like we
use a lot of positive

reframing, right?

Because one of the
issues that, that we

know is that humans
are negatively biased.

Right.

And we are, and the
reason why we are is

because evidently we
are coming out of a

cave and we're not
looking left and right.

And we're getting
eaten right as, as

you know, in the old
days, so to speak.

Um, and, um, and,
and it's easy.

And if you look, um, just
to make a little segue,

if you look at a, say in
an MMA world champ, for

example, like an absolute
superstar, or even a

boxer or anybody that
really excels in their

field, their ability
to shut down the voices

is slim to none, right?

So, so it's really hard
to emulate because what

they get the same, they
get the same, you know,

where you're, you're
an imposter, you know,

you eventually you'll
be, you'll be exposed

and people are going to
know who, you know, that

you're not as good as
they think you are and

all these other things.

But they really,
really will quiet

those voices down when
other people just don't

have that ability.

And the voices will
become louder and

louder and louder and
louder until it actually

mute their own right.

So one of the things
that I like to do,

that's actually
quite, quite easy.

And I've spoken to this
with a bunch of different

podcasts, but it's
basically, um, have them

listening to positive
messaging, but that

those positive messages,
they have to have an

impact emotionally.

They can't just be
like, okay, you are

going to, um, process
information with your

cerebral, with your head.

It's more about, can
you feel this message?

Right?

So when the context of
my guys, for example,

I used video videos
that were say set in a

tactical context, right?

Or in a military style
context or in a police,

you know, special
operation type context,

but a key messaging was
done by motivational

speaker, right.

So they would,
essentially at the

beginning of each
block, I would play,

you know, a four or
five, six minute video.

And my goal was not to
change their life by

playing this one video.

My goal was for them to
understand how we can

positively impact their
day and their shifts so

that they get to do it
on their own at home.

So for me, when I'm
cleaning the house,

when I'm doing things
chores around the

house or whatever,
I'm not listening to

music, I'm listening
to motivational video

set in a context that's
conducive to me having

an emotional reaction.

And I just blast
them right.

Very interesting.

And so what you do in
what you find quickly

is that I'm sleeping
in bed at night and I

will wake up reciting
certain things.

You know, luck is the
last thing, we should

also believe that winning
can happen by accident

and all these things.

And, and your brain
continues to process

the information.

And what I also tell them
to do is to do it in the

morning, because in the
morning when you wake up,

what happens, you listen
to a song, you have it

in your head all day.

Well, now's the time
to, front-load your,

you know, your, your
frontal cortex and your

emotional side and your
subconscious mind, uh,

with positive messaging.

And, and, and it's crazy
how effectively it works.

Now, the problem
is because humans

are inherently
negatively bias.

We tend to go back there.

So, so what happens is
oftentimes people will

do it for a while and
to be like, oh, I felt

really great, I felt
like I was, you know,

able to do things that
normally would have been

more apprehensive about,
or I was able to publish

public speak, or I was
able to present or do

this, or lead a call or
whatever the case may be.

Right.

And then they're like,
oh, well that worked,

you know, it's over.

No, it's not.

Because over time, what
happened is the voices

will become louder
and louder and louder.

So what I do is every
time I have downtime,

I just front load,
you know, jam pack

my brain and my, my
subconscious mind with

these key messaging.

And it never goes
back there if it

makes any sense.

Oh, it totally
makes sense.

Yeah, no, you brought
up a ton of things in

that little short span.

I wrote a couple
of things down.

So my ADHD mind
doesn't run off in

different directions.

Um, you know, one of
the things, when you're

talking about that, the,
the motivational, the

positive imagery, the
positive messaging, one

of the biggest things
I've heard people say

is, oh, it's a, it's
a short term thing.

It wears off and you
know what so's washing.

So showering.

Why not do
that every day?

Right?

I mean, it's a
routine that you

have to get into.

And if you're not always
doing it, like what you

say and keeping on top
of it, then you will

have diminishing returns.

And that's the
disabler, right.

And a disabler in all
of us, I'm going to

disable my own wellness.

I'm going to disable my
own ability to be better.

I'm going to disabled.

Uh, no, it's,
you know, empower

ourselves to do it.

So yeah, understand that
if you stop doing it,

it will stop working.

But what else do
you have to do?

You don't have to listen
to Metallica, well you

do, but you know, at
some point you can, you

can switch it up and
have an have, um, you

know, a motivational
video go out and really

reinforces that key
positive messaging.

What's interesting with
that too, is just like

martial arts and just
how difficult it is to

get certain people to
train despite the data

that shows that it's
absolutely necessary

for their own either
professional endeavor or

whatever the case may be.

It is equally as hard to
get somebody to listen

to a four minute video
after I've had this

conversation with so
many people, because

they just don't want
to even see if it could

possibly be right.

That's how deep
the disabler runs.

Right.

Why do you think that is?

It is, it is
completely asinine.

Yeah.

We, we, as humans have,
I believe more propensity

to self-sabotage than any
other species, because

we have the ability
to process so much

cognitive information.

Like how do we actually,
self-sabotage to the

point of, if I said
to you, give me three

minutes of your time and
I will prove to you that

what I'm saying is real.

What if I said to a
police officer come to

the mats and I will teach
you that your level of

competence is currently
sits at the unknown

incompetence, which
means that you don't

know what you don't know.

And in three and a
half minutes, I'm going

to show you that your
life is in danger if

you don't do something
about your, the ability

that you have to use of
force in a controlled

fashion, right?

Oh I'd jump on that.

Yeah, but that's
not the case.

But most people don't.

That's not the case.

Right.

Well, most people don't
want to have their

inadequacies pointed out.

A hundred percent.

And so the, the, the,
one of the, the course

that I have, the,
the, the introspective

leader courses exactly
about that, this is a

transformational day
for your leadership.

We are going to look
long and hard inside.

There is nobody
else responsible.

There's nobody else to
look out for, for rescue.

It's all about
going down and deep.

Very cool.

Yeah.

So you mentioned
something and I did a

bit of research going
into this as well

uh, but you mentioned
the word imposter.

And in my research,
I was listening to

our local police
chief here in Delta.

You had a chat with him.

And one of the things
that you brought

up was you actually
were promoted to a

leadership position
and then promoted from

there to an even higher
leadership position.

I think you had, what's
it like not direct

control, but about 500
people that were under.

Is that a correct number?

No.

So I, I essentially went
from having 24 people

reporting to me to
overseeing, being broadly

responsible for 8,200
employees in a division.

Right.

Now, you're
absolutely right.

There's a span
of control.

We know what the span
of control is right,

about five people.

So you have to
have your leaders

underneath, and that's
how these centralized

command works.

But in, in terms
of that the image.

And in terms of the,
my ability to reach and

connect, I had to be
able to do that with

basically 8,200 people.

That was my job to be,
um, an inspirational

leader, so to speak.

Um, and I mean, if
this wasn't a task that

was handed out to me.

No you took it
upon yourself.

This was, this
was an opportunity

to do it right.

I, you know, I could
have, I could have

cruised through
the position for

two years, but.

But I think you mentioned
in that interview

that you felt like an
imposter when you were

first put into that.

Can you speak about that?

Because I don't think
it's an uncommon

thing for most
people when they're

trying something new.

A hundred percent.

To say, like who am I?

Who am I to be able
to do this opposed to

somebody else who might
have greater accolades?

Sure.

Well, you know, to
begin with understanding

that, um, uh, tactical
team leaders, such

as me is held to the
fire every single day.

So we bring our
accountability with

us everywhere we go.

We don't need other
people to, to, you know,

to make us accountable
for our actions.

So for me, being
in the unconscious

incompetence is, is a
very, very rare thing.

I generally always
know that I don't know

anything about something.

I just don't know
specifically what

those things are.

Right.

But I will know
who to speak to.

So as I like to tell
my guys, know what you

don't know and know who
knows what you don't

know, or at the very
least, you know who you

could speak to the find
out what you don't know.

So for me, when I moved
on to an administrative

position, so to speak,
um, from being a

tactical team leader,
which was also an

administrative position,
that's called a spade

a spade for the last
two years of my career.

I was in the command
post and doing mostly,

um, enabling of my
guys doing the work on

the ground, which they
did fantastic work.

But, um, but when I
moved to a, a truly

administrative position
at 30,000 foot, you

know, I was now dealing
with the assistant

commissioner, the deputy
commissioner and the

commanding officer of
the division, which

was very different
from, and all of us.

So dealing with Ottawa
and the commissioner

of the RCMP and having
face-to-face meetings and

doing presentations and
these types of things,

it was such a broad and
it was such, you know,

it, it, it was so vast
different from what I

was used to uncomfortable
with that the first time

they put the ranks on my
shoulders, I was like,

you don't know anything,
you don't own the job.

You don't own
this job yet.

You're not ready
for this rank, but

now you have it.

Right.

So there was a temporary,
there was a, there was

a period there where
definitely I felt, you

have the ranks on your
shoulders, but, um,

you, you don't know
where you you're doing.

So for me, the, the,
the sort of the defense

mechanism and what
that led me to want

to do is you are going
to earn this rank.

And you're going to start
right now because having

a rank on your shoulder,
um, is, is a privilege.

It's a privilege.

You now have, uh, the
ability to affect the

collective positively
and negatively and.

If, if you're, if
you're not prepared

for the responsibility
that comes along with

that, and you're in for
yourself, the collective

is taking a back seat,
everybody's paying

for that shortcoming.

And, um, and, and,
and so yeah, what it

did for me is just, it
was extra motivation.

The bridge was cut behind
me, so to speak, right.

I just, I just had to
go all out and try to

make the best out of
the experience that I

had to cross it over
to where I was going.

And it took no time
to figure out how that

was going to work.

So some people will say
fake it till you make

it when you're in there,
pretend like you have it,

but you took a different
approach and you said,

okay, I've got the
stripes on my shoulder

now and I'm going
to really earn them.

I'm really going to own
it and make it my own.

And for better or
worse, as I look back,

I can't say it was
for lack of trying.

No question.

That's a good
way to do it.

Unquestionably,
controlling, you know,

what was within my
sphere of influence.

And, um, and, and really,
I believe all I could

ask myself was work as
hard as I possibly could.

Right.

And I would never look
back and say, you, you

missed an opportunity to
really give it your all

and you failed miserably.

It might've been, you
failed miserably, but

you tried everything
you possibly could so.

Right.

Yeah.

Well as I think back.

So my father was
Vancouver police.

My grandfather,
never met him, he was

Vancouver police as well.

Actually, he's one of the
ones that this company is

named after he was Silver
Armeneau VPD detective,

uh, Cornelius Bader,
my other grandfather

was an entrepreneur.

I took the silver,
I took the core,

put 'em together.

Beautiful name.

Um, but my father, he
was VPD and he was on

the very ERT and then
he was in charge of

it for, for some time.

And, uh, consequently,
we would have most of

the team over in the
house and I got to see

the different people
involved in over the

period period of time.

See how the stresses
of work can start

effecting people.

And one, he's passed
away about a year ago,

but, um, got into the
bottle pretty heavy.

Another fellow, um,
resigned, took himself

off the team, took
himself out of policing

altogether, moved up
north a bit and ended

up taking his own life.

Um, everybody kind
of deals with things

differently and I'd
look at how my father

would deal with things
and how anger would

come out in certain
ways when in hindsight,

looking back what I
would view as normal

behavior, it was, it was
very, very different.

Um, I think in the
very early, the days

of the ERT there, um,
the mental conditioning

aspect of it was confined
to, uh, the warrior

mindset, as opposed to
the mental resiliency.

When did that whole
resiliency piece start

to really take hold
that, that you could see?

The real question is
when did we lose it?

You know, well you're
looking at warrior

culture and not to
compare, say ERT with the

samurais, but we'll use
the samurais for example.

Right?

Sure.

A lot of the, a lot
of the pillars of

resiliency were already
within their mindset.

You know, they had a
sense of higher purpose.

There was a social aspect
to it, there was the

physical aspect to it.

There was a spiritual
aspect to it and

the emotional side.

And they were, you know,
they brought all those

things together as well.

Those are the pillars
of resiliency.

Right.

And so what ended up
happening, I think

over, over the course
of whatever centuries,

millenniums, whatever
the case may be.

Um, we we've lost the
bigger picture and it

became a sort of, uh,
it sort of became a one

dimensional approach
to problem solving.

Right.

And, uh, when I, when I
think of my beginnings

on the team, so now it
would have been in 2007

or whatever, at the time
the old school, you know,

ERT guys were still.

I have a, they had a
death grip on the team

in terms of case, some of
them were still in P in

position of leadership.

Uh, definitely, uh,
one of the, one of

them was at the helm of
the team at the time.

And, um, I remember
vividly, you know, going

to a hostage rescue
and actually, you know,

conducting it with,
with, with two or three

of the other guys.

And, uh, and when one
of the, uh, supervisor

asked, they, should
we give the guys

some recognition for
this or whatever.

It was like, wow,
that's their job, right?

That was kind of
the mentality.

But I think reinforcing
that purpose and Hey

guys, this was a, you
know, a really tough

call that we sent
you to, uh, you did

a fantastic job and
here's some recognition.

So now there's a positive
attachment with this,

and your sense of purpose
has increased and all

these other things.

So they all feed into
each other right.

And, uh, there was always
on the ERT side, just

like there is on the
military side, um, a

strong importance given
to sort of being tough

and, uh, being tough as
much more to skin deep.

Hugely.

Being, being tough is
sometimes having the

ability to say, this is
too much for me, or how

do I get better at this?

Or what can I do better
here and show some

vulnerable, vulnerable
vulnerability.

mixing up two
languages, two of

which I don't speak
officially, but, um.

But you know, and so
my thing has always

been focused on what
you can do to be

better all around.

And you'll never
have to project an

image of toughness.

You will just beat off.

And generally
people don't try to

overcompensate as
they have something.

Right.

Which ties right into why
police officers should

be good at controlling
suspects on the ground

or, or even, you know,
uh, being able to sustain

an assault standing up
and be able to, to, to

react appropriately,
do all those things and

have a certain level
of stress resistance to

some of those events so
that they never feel the

need to overcompensate
for the things that

they're insecure in, if
that makes any sense.

So.

It makes a lot of sense.

So for me, sorry, I
went on a bit of a

segue here, but, but
for me, um, it's a very

different game now.

I think over the course
of the last, I would say

probably I'd say five
to 10 years and, uh,

as more of this newer
generation is starting

coming through and
there's a recognition

organizationally, not
just from the RCMP,

but from a variety of
different organizations

are important than
the, you know, the,

the importance of
mental wellness and

emotional wellness.

And, um, and it's
bleeding, it's bleeding

into everything
and it should.

And so I think that
now we're doing a

much, much better
and it's not perfect.

It's not perfect, but
we're doing especially

an M speaking about
the team here.

Right.

Not, not necessarily
you know, painting with

a, with a broad brush
here, just to team.

And, uh, yeah, I mean, I,
you know, I think there

is no going backwards
now ever because we've

had, we've had plenty of
our guys go with to some

incredible things that
you would have thought

years ago would have
definitely, definitely

benched a bunch of guys
for a long, long time.

And the prospect of
speaking, you know, I'm,

I'm thinking about a
gentlemen, you mentioned

that took his own life.

The prospect of speaking
about those things

back in the day would
have been, you know.

Oh.

A sacrilege, right?

Like.

It was looked down upon.

What are you doing?

Just drink another
drink, you know, like.

Right.

Well, like I say, one
of them, I, I, you

know what, I won't,
I won't say the name.

I won't say the nickname,
but very heavy into

the drink, but this
fellow, he said, um, I

remember he was at the,
uh, the kitchen table

talking about how he
would start shivering

and convulsing violently
as he started to drive

over the bridge and he'd
break down into tears

and he didn't know why.

And this was as he's
driving over the bridge

to go into work and the
incident that he was

involved with,wasn't even
one that I think people

would look at it and say,
well, are you kidding me?

Is that it?

But the fact that the
balance of life and

death did stand, was
held within his hands

and the fact that he
didn't react in a way

that he thought he would
react or that he figured

he should have reacted.

Uh, really didn't
sit well with him.

And on top of that, I
didn't get the sense

that there's a heck of
a lot of support from

management in the,
in the whole process.

And I, I remember
him telling the story

and I remember him
going through it

and looking at it.

And the, I was very young
at the time and thinking,

well, that's not, it,
that's not what a tough

person does right.

And cause that was, that
was how I was raised.

And that's how everybody
kinda kinda thought

maybe he doesn't
belong on the team.

When in fact the
guy was a perfect

fit for the team.

Had he had these mental
resiliencies in place

and had a support network
for being able to reframe

that incident in a
way that was positive.

Yeah.

As I, um, as I completed
a research project, when

I first moved to the
commanding officer's

office, um, I asked for
permission to go around

and interview people that
were involved in critical

use of force and half
the conversations about

what was done with them,
following the incident.

I mean, pre post and
pre, during and post

incidents, you know,
just to see where the

balls were dropped so
that we could obviously

pick up some slack and
tighten up some things.

And I was absolutely
amazed the mud, the

vast majority of our
members weren't actually.

Um, adversely afflicted
by whatever incident they

actually responded to.

It was the way they
were treated did after.

So when people come
into policing and

come into these first
responder job, they

have an expectations
of some of the things

they're going to see.

Therefore there's a
pre-loading of the

information and weary,
and the punch you expect

is better than the
punch you don't expect.

Right?

So then they would go to
work on the daily with an

acceptance, and that this
may be the case today.

I prepare for this,
I have this training

and that training
and, and, and so,

but what they didn't
prepare for is to get

abandoned along the way.

And unfortunately,
it's not always, it

doesn't, it's not
always an organizational

thing where everybody
dropped the ball, but

sometimes it's just
that one person, right.

It's that one
person that didn't

quite get it right.

And was going through
a clinical process at

the time at which the
person that was actually

a part of the incident
is hypersensitive

following an incident.

And they should
be, you know, cause

it's abnormal.

Like we're sending
our people to

abnormal situations.

And then, and then,
and then, you know,

uh, something was said,
or something was done

or an attitude was
taken and, and, and,

and the person felt
completely, um, betrayal,

betrayal, like a, a
strong sense of betrayal

of being betrayed
by the organization.

Uh, and then, you know,
it's interesting too,

because, and I tell this
to member members all the

time, it's like the force
treated me like crap.

Well, we've had this
conversation for

say, uh, two hours.

And, and you've
mentioned this person

900 times, right?

Is this person
representing the force?

To a certain extent
they do, but they

are not the force.

They are not the
organization.

There'll be one person
that was your disabler.

And he really caused some
severe damage, right.

So with the idea,
yeah, it's just,

it's tough, right?

Because if you have a
line of say 10 people

that have the ability
to impact somebody's

career or their lives
and the lives of their

family, all it takes is
one, it just takes one.

Totally.

So they have to
be in unison, they

have to be in sync.

They have to be squared
away of the processes.

They have to be,
they have to be

prioritizing wellness
over, over anything

else in recovery,
over anything else.

And they all have to
be on the same page.

And if they don't,
somebody will pay.

A lot of the retired
police officers that,

uh, not at all, but I
see a lot of them that

I've dealt with will
have a resentment or

a, an antiestablishment
attitude after getting

out of policing as
they look back because

of those one or two
people that, that's

a very good analogy
that you put forward.

The issue that you also
brought up was having

the, um, the confidence
of being able to deal

with people in the
street in a way where

you now no longer have
to overuse force or

over exert your role.

And I quite often hear
the same thing come up.

Well, how come we're
hiring these people

who've never been
in a fight before?

How come we're,
uh, prioritizing

university education
over top of perhaps

some street smarts.

And I, and I see the
argument on both sides.

I see the fact that
some compassion and

a different approach
can quite often have

a much better outcome
than perhaps going

in with a heavy hand.

And I also see the side
when the heavy hand

needs to be applied.

Um, but that process
of hiring, and I know

you've heard it before
and then people will

get into positions of
leadership and leadership

will start to promote
other people with similar

experiences, life values,
interests that they have

and you start getting a
top heavy establishment

with certain ethos
and outlooks.

And if you get that
one or two negative

individuals in there
it can start to

sour an organization
rather quickly.

And I think that's
where some of this media

reporting has been, uh,
at one point the RCMP.

I mean, you, you
couldn't paint it

black mark on them.

And for a long time now,
I, all you hear about in

the news is just really,
really negative things.

And when we first started
talking here, you brought

up, uh, uh, a recent one.

I, you did a post on
Instagram as well, did

you want to talk about,
I think I brought up

a couple things here,
but why don't you just

step off on whichever
one you'd like to.

Okay.

If I, if I get lost,
he'll have to bring

me back on track here,
but I'll start with one

thing to begin with, we
know that group problem

solving and effective
problem solving is

better when you have
diversity of thoughts.

Right?

So if you surround
yourself with like-minded

individual, it looks
like we're doing the

right thing, but it's
not always the case.

Now don't get me wrong.

Evidently you could
say, well, if you're

on an ERT team, the
majority of the guys are

like-minded individuals.

They're hard driven, go
getters that want to go

out and do things and
they want to step up.

But amongst those
personalities, there's

a wide spectrum of
different variety.

Right?

And it's, and so you
can have, um, S some,

um, similarities, but
having diversity of

thoughts, especially is
critical for effective

group problem-solving.

And there was a spring,
uh, I believe a Stanford

university or one of
the university in the

states, I can never
remember which one.

Um, had done basically
a, an exercise where they

had a strong baseline
with a collective IQ,

much higher than another
group that had diversity

of thoughts, you know,
by, by way of backgrounds

and ethnicities and
all these other things.

Right.

And what they end up
doing is they end up

being able to figure,
being able to come up to

the conclusion that the
group that had a lower

combined IQ was still
better at effectively

problem solve the.

Interesting.

Dilemmas that they were
given because there

was, oh, you know, I've
dealt with this in my

job and I've, I've got
this at an experience.

And, you know, versus
we're all thinking the

same cause if you're,
if you're group problem

solving with people
that are all like you,

you're essentially alone.

You're in an
echo chamber.

Problem solving.

Yeah, you are.

And so that's a very
interesting dichotomy,

so to speak, but, uh,
but uh, you have to

go on with, you know,
the media and, and,

and, um, and hopefully
you haven't started

something that we can't
put back in the box here.

But, um, you know, cold
call me, call me naive,

call me, um, idealist,
uh, I don't know.

Um, but I do believe that
there is an ethical, uh,

professional and, um,
ethical, professional

and, and just outright,
um, responsibility

to, um, to, to, to
stop the divide.

Right?

We're not what we are
seeing currently with

the polarization is, is,
has the potential to be

extremely self-harming
for this, for this,

uh, species and a
prospect of us getting

so bad to a point
where we self-destruct

isn't that far off
and call me fatalistic

or anything, but it
is, it is what it is.

If we keep going down
those rabbit holes where

we're getting further
and further and further

apart, and we're, nobody
is unable to bring

people back together
so that we can pull

in the same direction.

We're going to
have some serious

problems as a species.

Yeah.

And we are not even
talking about, imagine

electricity going
off when we saw it

with COVID, you know,
it didn't take, it

didn't take 24 hours
to find out that we

couldn't work together.

Everybody just went
running in there,

you know, every
directions and.

Gotta get toilet paper.

Yeah.

And when I say everyone,
obviously there's always

the people that are
there to assist others.

And we, we, we love them
and we were lucky you'd

have them, but, um, you
know, it had, it had

an incredible impact.

And we're talking about
a virus with a survival

rate that far exceeded
anything, not to downplay

it, but you know, that
far exceeded anything

that we would experience.

If we had, I had, you
know, a vx gas attack or

whatever the case may be,
you know, like something

truly, truly dramatic.

And so, you know,
I realize, yeah.

And, and just being
devil's advocate, then

kind of going through my
own processes, I realized

that the news media.

As we know it, uh,
especially the paper

format is, is dying.

It's a dying, it's
a dying business.

And, uh, it's really,
really hard for them

to even stay afloat.

Right.

So I realized that
there is a need for

them to inject some
sensationalism in there

so that they can hit
certain numbers that

allows them to continue
proliferating news.

Right.

However, at some
point you kind of

have to look at what
are we after here?

Are we, are we
prioritizing financial

gain or are we, uh, we
are, we prioritizing, um,

man, human kinds, right?

Uh, and, and, and our
ability to positively

influence all of these
people and change

millions of lives.

So when you're at the
end of the day, what

you are doing, you may
be successful, but are

you, are you meaningful?

You know, is that
something that, that

actually truly makes a
difference and something

that you can look at
yourself in the mirror

and be extremely proud
to have been a part of?

So for me, again, going
back on track, what I

want to see is I want
to see fair reporting.

I'm not, I'm not
asking for them to, um,

sugarcoat the actions
of police officers if

there is misconduct.

Absolutely not.

That's let's expose them.

Let's deal with them.

Let's do all
this good stuff.

But adversely when,
when things are done.

Um, and, and, and,
you know, members are

rushing into a building
to save a two year old.

Right?

Like recently.

Like in this case.

Yes.

And they were stabbed
in the process of

doing so don't go out
and call and make a

big headlines on your
newspaper that states

police officers were cut.

Right.

Because it's semantics.

I get it.

But if I, if I speak to
somebody that has zero

frame of reference and
I go, okay, two police

officers were cut.

And I said to
them, I need you to

describe to me what
you just envisioned.

Right.

They, they would.

Look at their finger.

A hundred percent.

They would think, you
know, when I caught

myself with onion.

So, cause we that's
what we do as humans,

our cognitive, uh,
experiences are now

attached to whatever
we know as a reality.

Right.

What police work
is, a lot of the

times is extremely
gruesome, extremely,

extremely gruesome.

So if, if obstacle
or, uh, you know,

stabbed that is a
serious, serious life

altering potentially
life, the life ending

situation and the person
that's done it also

deserves to be exposed.

And I'm not saying, I'm
not saying necessarily

with their name or
anything like that,

but I'm just saying
don't downplay it or

diminish the actions
by saying that police

officers were cut.

Cause how he makes
us suspect sound

like potentially you
did something right.

We didn't do
anything that bad.

Didn't trim his nails
well enough earlier

and kinda cut the.

That's right.

And now the, the, the
police officers that

entered this place
knowing, foresee, I

don't know the details,
you know, for a fact,

but like, we'll assume
that, we assume that

there are weapons in
most of the houses that

we go to, especially
if they're problematic.

And I can tell you
that that's the case.

There's no question.

And if we were to
think about, you know,

kitchen knives who
doesn't have that?

Everyone.

So yeah, so there's
always tactical

considerations when
go on calls like this.

And if the person is
emotionally disturbed to

the point where you're
dealing now with a set

of circumstances where
you have a two year

old that's in danger
to the point where you

launch essentially a
hostage rescue, right.

Cause there is exigency
to do so, you know

that some of those
things are going to

be coming your way.

Like that's an accepted
fact, like you will

get either hurt or
you're going to have

to respond to something
you will be faced with.

So for them to have
that information

front loaded in their
frontal cortex and be

ready to go and do it
anyways, go get stabbed.

And a, and a, and a
two-year-old is being

rescued, um, needs
to be proliferated.

It needs to be
proliferated.

The public needs to see,
needs to hear the story

and needs to see it as
much as they are entitled

to know when cops are
conducting themselves

embarrassingly.

Sure.

Right.

I think that's a really
tall order, particularly

considering the negative
bias that we already

talked about to begin
with that people look

towards, you can look
towards a really positive

event and some people
clap, hey that's great.

Glad to hear it, but the
negative ones and people

just dwell over it.

And on top of that,
the media, holy crow.

So if we talk about print
media, these people said,

wow, they're just doing
it to sell newspapers

and a friend of mine
in the media says, no

no it's so we can sell
advertising, right?

Really that the better
their circulation the

more advertising, the
more we have, and we've

only got a limited amount
of space and we got to

catch your attention.

And so we'll, we'll
put it forth like this.

And you're going to have
people with negative

biases against law
enforcement because

they got a speeding
ticket when they didn't

think they should have.

And this is our
way to get back and

they've got a pen or
whatever it might be.

And I know law
enforcement has, for

a long time now, been
taking the media out

to, uh, on ride alongs,
take them out to the

range, show 'em like
these are the decisions

that you have to make.

Here's some simulated
training that they

go through to give a
better perspective in

how things are reported.

I don't know if that
change in how the media

provides information is
ever going to get any

better, particularly
considering that

most people get their
information through

online sources now,
and the online sources

are heavily integrated
with advertising and

revenue streams through
Google, which owns

YouTube and Facebook
which owns Instagram.

And you'll notice like
you brought up COVID you

can't write something
on social media without

the advertising company
coming in and putting

their two bits on the,
uh, on, if you write in,

Hey, I got my COVID shot.

You're going to see
a thing that comes

up underneath that
talks about COVID.

I don't know if
fairness in reporting is

something that we will
ever really see again.

And when you talk about
this precipice of the

divisiveness within,
uh, people right now

and how the media and
most of our information

sources are really
playing out up to that.

I see it.

I think most people
see it and it might

be exacerbated by
what we actually

read in the media.

It might be greater in
our minds to what it

might actually be, but
at some point it will

reach a tipping point
and it'll self level

for better or for worse.

Um, but when you talk
about leadership and

policing, which ties back
to who are we hiring and

why, how do we develop
mental resiliencies?

How do we develop basic
people skills and a

value system so that
people can deal with

at risk individuals or
people on the street in

a way that's going to be
conducive to publicly,

um, positive reporting.

Um, you have been
developing a system

to sort of change the
face of leadership

in policing, which I
think will touch on

all of these points
that you've brought up.

It'll touch on how the
media reports on it,

because the leadership
will now take hopefully

a more proactive
approach and how

they're and how they're
engaging the citizens.

Like I've always thought,
holy crow, a boots on the

ground hearts and minds
approach, like what the

military will do when
they go into a, a foreign

area, uh, by the police.

We do wonders to
getting just the

basic idea across.

You talk about a
person getting cut

well holy crow.

I've known people who've
been stabbed, I've

known people who've
been killed through,

uh, by knives, you don't
have to go that deep.

It doesn't have to
be that big of a

stab and you can
do horrific damage.

I remember I had
a, I used to bounce

back in the day.

So did I.

Ozone Nightclub, out
in Surrey there back

when that was around.

And, uh, I, uh, I was
hired there, the guy

didn't, I was working
at a gym at the time and

this one of the owners
came by the gym and says,

um, you'd be perfect.

You should come, you
should come bounce

at, uh, at the ozone.

I wasn't even old
enough to attend the

ozone, but no problem.

I'll go there.

I won't tell them my age.

Right.

Um, they had a mass
exodus of people leaving.

Someone got shot in the
face and the parking

lot, and a body was
found in the dumpster

behind the strip club.

That was right
next door to it.

Um, but we encountered
knives there.

A friend of mine, I gave
some body armor too,

because I had a whole
bunch of old VPD stuff.

And he ended up
getting poked in the

belly and in the back.

And, um, just
went through just

a little bit.

And then he caught it in
the arm and went through

his, uh, his bicep when
he put his hand up to

kind of block his, his
throat, but a bit of

a degression there.

Um, when we talk about
how these things are

reported, if people
could understand the

actual seriousness of
what an edge weapon.

Can be to an individual.

They said, well,
you got a guy and

he's got a knife.

Come on.

I mean, the way he
just wrestled the

knife out of his hand.

What?

He was X distance away,
how far away is that?

And of course, most
police know about the

Tueller drill and the
Megliato and all, all the

other, um, uh, theories
on distance and how

long a person can live
and how far away they

can be, um, lethal too.

But all of these little
points I think, could be

addressed through what
you're talking about

in the leadership and
policing, how leadership

interacts with media,
how leadership interacts

with the subordinates,
so that they interact

with the general public.

Is that sort of the
plan that you're, cause

as you're talking here
and I'm thinking about,

it sounds like a very
holistic approach that

you're looking at.

Yeah, absolutely it is.

And, and, and the good
news is, um, just to go

back on something you
said, cause I think I

wouldn't really, it would
be a disservice for me to

not sort of speak to it,
but, um, or at least to

give you some semblance
of an opinion on it, um,

I realize that striving
for fairness is going

to always be difficult.

Now the problem
is, is, is, is

accountability, right?

And so the
problem is this.

We have a prime minister
right now that will not

answer a question for
27 minutes while all of

us are asking it again.

And after three or
four times that he's

skillfully skirt, uh,
skirted his way out of

answering the question.

Nobody asks it again
and I'm standing there

going, somebody ask
that question again.

Hold them accountable.

Yeah.

So, and so this is
what the issue is here.

The public has
a lot of power.

If the public to turn
around and say, tell

us what truly happens
here, tell us who's

truly dying from COVID,
tell us who we would

get the information
unvetted right?

But there's a lot of
information floating

around that just we're
not getting, and we're

not asking for it, so
we're not getting it.

So it's the same with
this, you know, take

one isolated incident
because we can go on,

on tangents for days
with how we're going

to make that happen.

How is it actually
logistically feasible

and how do we all
work together and

whatever, right?

But if you look at say
the incident with a two

year old was, so there
is enough information

out there to know that
that occurred, right?

And so now what needs to
happen is there needs to

be a public backlash on
the way it was addressed

in the first place.

Let's call it 500
emails, let's call it

5,000 emails, let's
call it 50,000 emails.

At some point it
will have an impact.

It will have an impact
because the next person

that comes along a
similar situation

will be last time we
reported on this and

we weren't accurate.

And we weren't, we're
going to get 50,000

emails following, right.

There was no
repercussions.

It's acting with our
repercussions just

leads us to do anything.

I'll give you an example
of this and I'll, I'll,

I'll sort of lead right
into your bouncing,

your bouncing example.

Cause I was a bouncer
in Montreal during

a biker war between
the work machine,

the hell's angels.

It was war zone, you
know, no question.

But it's interesting
because as this war was

unfolding and it was, as
it was getting worse and

worse and people were
dying everywhere and,

and caught in the cross
fires and people were

trying to kill people
and club lineups with

rocket launchers and
all kinds of stupidness.

Um, one of the things
that never happened

for the longest time
was for people to say

enough is enough, right?

And so, and so those
things proliferated

and it continued and
they just, it just, it

was getting worse and
worse and eventually.

An innocent guy killed.

An eight year old, got,
got, got killed, right?

And his Jeep blew up in
a, essentially a vehicle

born IED and boom.

And he received, you
know, some, some piece

of parts of the Jeep and,
and, and, and his life

ended when that happened.

Everybody in Quebec got
together and they're

like, enough's enough.

They put their foot down.

It took a year and a half
to two years, following

that to make hanging out
with people with colors,

illegal, I'm talking
about like, obviously.

Gang colors.

Biker gang colors, right.

And, and having any
gathering of more than

so-and-so the sentences
got way stifer and

the pursuit and to the
budgets increase for the

units that were actually
chasing those guys.

And, and, and, and
eventually what happened

is there was nothing
to be found in Quebec

in terms of bikers.

It was very boucher
was in jail.

His son was in jail.

The nomads were
completed as banded.

It was everywhere.

And so, and so all it
took is for everybody

to get together once.

Right.

And, um, anyways.

We're seeing that now.

We do.

And they call it SLO
or social license to

operate, and we're seeing
it, but not necessarily

in a positive way.

No.

Exactly.

And this obviously a
good tool can always be

used a bad purpose right?

You can have the, the,
the most beautiful,

you know, Lapua and
uh, either kill an

elephant or, or people.

Yes.

You know, um, anyways,
so yeah, I, I do

believe that, um, and
I don't want to make

it sound like, um, I
single-handedly, or, you

know, hold the key to
fixing all the policing

problems because it
would be, um, extremely

disingenious on my
part to say that, but

certainly what the plan
is is to get people,

to take responsibility
for the things that are

not going well for us
as, as police officers

and as departments and
all these other things.

And so teaching all
levels of leadership to

stop looking around for
somebody to rescue them

and to self rescue by
being extremely critical

of their own actions and
also by seeking input

and work cooperatively
with their people.

So I support you, you
support me, not in a

way that some media
has put, it puts a

spin on it, where I
hide you, you hide me.

We're talking about
ethical professional

behaviors here, and how
are we going to problem

solve certain things
in a prioritize and

execute type fashion.

We're having an issue
with media relationship.

Who's fixing that
and how, and how

can we enable it
and how can we help?

We need to get the people
that are resistant to

change to step off.

And what's interesting
with resistant to change

is maladjusted leaders,
as I call them, um,

will, will often be
in charge of change.

That is really
interesting.

And one of the things
that I found out is

at times, I think they
take that responsibility

on to prevent it,
you know, and it's.

I'd agree a
hundred percent.

And it may be
conscious or it may

be subconscious, but
it ends up happening

anyway, I'm late.

And my conversations
are, you are supposed

to be spearheading a
movement to change here

and introduce us to the,
you know, to the century

that we're in and, um,
be proactive, but you

are not, you're actually
disabling everything.

So I need you to curb
the disabler and start

looking, you know?

Um, so anyways, so
yeah, so that's kind

of what the idea is.

You're absolutely
correct.

And it impacts absolutely
every aspect of your,

uh, of your ability
to police effectively.

So responsibility and
taking responsibility

for actions is not
something that the

RCMP has a stellar
reputation for now.

They might do it, but in
the public perception,

the public eye, they
definitely are, are held

in the same sort of,
um, vein as, uh, your

example of Trudeau there.

And I remember I
was doing a firearms

instructors course with
the Vancouver police

a number of years ago.

And there was a VPD
officer during that

time, who I believe he
shoved somebody on the

streets, it was a woman.

I think she might've been
disabled or there, there

was some issue there.

And within the period
of time from that

incident happening, the
officer made a mistake.

He thought he was
being approached by

somebody with ill
intent, turned out this

person was, um, MHA.

And I think it was about
a three-day span between

that incident happening
and the brass coming

out and saying, yeah,
that officer screwed up.

Uh, we are now putting
that officer on some

retraining, pulled
them from the current

division until they're
trained up and, uh,

we'll report back after.

And that just seemed
to me, and I looked

at the, uh, the rest,
everyone else there

was law enforcement
and I looked at how

everyone else dealt
with it and like, yeah.

Yep, makes sense,
sounds good.

And that approach to
me, you get in front

of the problem, you
take responsibility

for it, even if it's
a situation where the

officer may be, they
made the right decision

based on everything,
but didn't have that one

key piece of information
for the department

of stand up and take
responsibility that

sends a really strong
message and conversely

watching multiple issues.

One of which is, uh,
information up right

over my right shoulder,
where the RCMP, um,

would rather double down.

Circle the wagons, so
to speak and not want

to admit wrongdoing.

And I always
wonder why that is.

Is there, is there
the worry of opening

Pandora's box?

If I say, yeah, we
screwed up here that

everything's going to
come flying or is it just

arrogant protectionism.

I don't know.

Am I off base in that
sort of, because keep in

mind, I was raised in a
municipal police force

family, which had a very
different perspective

of what a federal
policing looks like.

It's also much, much
easier to turn a small,

uh, speed boat around
than a aircraft carrier.

Right.

And so, but you're not,
no, you're not wrong

in the sense that, um,
what I, what I could

say, I guess, in what
I could speak to, and

not that I'm being
limited in anything I

say whatsoever, but I got
to speak to what I know.

I can just start
making stuff up, uh,

what I have seen.

And what I do know
is that, that the

RCMP's sort of
media, um, strategy.

And this is not a knock
on doors that are working

in a media strategies,
but, but the broad

strategy, um, is vastly
underfunded for one.

And also it's like,
there's, there's a

S there's a certain
centralization of command

there that needs to stop.

It needs to be
decentralized.

It needs to be
centered a region.

And we need to have
some strong teams

of strong leaders.

We're talking about
people, you know, that

that can take ownership
of things, that can dig

into things and find
facts that can be given

without say, jeopardizing
an investigation, or, um,

making a statement that's
completely off base now

from the perspective
of the members.

There's no protective
attitude on the, on the

part of the organization,
as far as our regular

members are concerned,
because these guys

feel like they're being
dragged into the mud

incessantly, and nobody
is stepping up for them.

So this, this, this
is a two-way street.

They're actually not
providing information,

but they're also
not defending the

members right?

So now you have you
basically, it's on two

fronts where it's a
failing on two fronts,

like communicate.

And, and one of the
things that I really,

really don't like is
when you start taking

listeners and, and, and
people in the public

for idiots, like don't,
don't start taking

people for idiots.

Like if you actually give
them, uh, the totality

of the circumstances,
or at the very least an

exemplification of what
this might look like, or

this might've occurred
here, or we don't know

for sure all the details,
but we can tell you this.

We've asked our officers
to go in a very tough

situation, this occurred,
as soon as we know more,

we'll give you more, but
we don't get, we don't

even give them that
because we're afraid

of making a mistake.

If you make a mistake,
you own your mistake,

you own your mistake
publicly, and you

apologize for it.

And those are the
mechanism that we're

going to put in place
so that it does not

repeat itself and
this is it, it's over.

You don't lose
respect when you do

that as a leader.

But when you start hiding
being disingenious,

this is where you
now establishing

your character as
an organization.

And the problem with
that is after that,

everything you do is
always tinted with the

possibility that you are
being disingenious right?

Right.

And so for me, um,
you know, I just, I

would love to see a
much more open format,

which respect to how we
communicate preemptively,

whether it's with
operations or some of

the work that we do,
or some of the really

difficult situation that
our members are in and,

you know, have take the
public for what they

are, which is if you
give them a reasonable,

uh, if you give them a
reasonable facts that you

give them a reasonable,
they will come to a

very similar conclusion.

And yes, there's
always going to be

the outliers that, you
know, the conspiracy

theorist and, and, and
all these other things.

I mean, conspiracy,
conspiracy, we can't

get together on what
kind of colour pen

we're going to purchase.

So let alone broad
scope conspiracy.

Yeah, yeah.

This is just, this is
just unworkable, uh, in

a government organization
as far as I'm concerned.

But, um, but yeah, I
just, the lack of media

strategy needs to be
addressed and it's

not, uh, um, uh, sort
of, um, a follow up

to whatever happens.

It's preemptive.

It's gotta be proactive.

It's proactive and it's,
and it's after as well.

Give you an example.

Another example of
this, uh, you know,

that has tragic, has
had tragic consequences.

So Pierre Lemaitre was
the gentleman, excuse me,

that um, that came out
and during the Surrey 6,

sorry not the Surrey 60,
um, the jet-ski incidents

at the Vancouver airport.

Right.

And he has made, uh,
you know, uh, first

statement that had
some mistakes in it.

And, and, and, uh,
it wasn't ill will or

anything like that.

It just was reported
in a way that con, you

know, conveyed some
facts that weren't

necessarily facts, at the
time uh, there was some

missing pieces there.

So what happened was
of course, Pierre wants

to go back and wants
to correct his mistake

and wants to go to the
public and say, look,

I screwed up, I didn't
have all the facts here.

And I thought I heard
this and, or I was told

this, but it wasn't
verified, or whatever

the case may be and
explained that to the

public and let them
know what happened.

And he was told category
clean, no, you are

not going to do that.

Took his life.

Right.

He took his own life.

Right.

And, and, and, and we
just, we, we, we, we

need to understand.

And it's quite
interesting because when

you set a culture of
ownership with yourself,

as a leader, ownership
and accountability

with yourself as a
leader, it starts,

it starts bleeding
into your culture and

all of your people.

And it's really difficult
nowadays to go anywhere

and to have somebody
say, This didn't work

out because I did this
wrong, or I didn't work.

When do you see that?

Hardly ever.

Right.

But on units, like say
on the team I was on or

whatever, we sat there.

And that was a
constant people were

fighting over, who was
responsible for what.

As in trying to
take the blame.

You weren't even
working that day.

You had nothing
to do with it.

You know, like it, it got
through the next day, it

got to an extent where
everybody, the culture

of ownership was there.

Well, if you transpose
this on a broad

spectrum, you are doing
it organizationally.

You are now sent
sending this down

the ranks as well.

So there is like,
it's a Pandora's box.

You're absolutely right.

And that if we do it
correctly, it's going

to have a trickle down
effect that will impact

everybody's ability to
have that ownership.

And I, when I say
everybody, we always know

there's some that won't,
but the more you have

the masses do the right
thing, the less popular

it is to have somebody
not do the right thing.

If that makes any sense.

You know, that's a really
interesting way to look

at it too, because with
them social license to

operate, and it seems
like there's a misguided

approach to ownership
of responsibility in

society at the moment.

And maybe that's because
they have not received

a good example from
those who should be in

a leadership position
when people are going

and looking at events
that happened a hundred

or more years ago and
saying, we've got to take

ownership for this now.

And that's gonna open
up a whole, whole

other can of worms of
things, but the level of

ownership that officials
are being asked to

take upon themselves,
sometimes they're things

that had absolutely
nothing to do with

them, I think is rather
unreasonable by sometimes

the vocal majority.

Having a police force,
having a government in

power that will take
responsibility and, and

encourage the federal
police force to do

the same thing and set
the parameters or the

framework for what is
right and what is wrong

and what is acceptable
or not will probably have

a very massive effect
in the populace who is

looking at it and saying,
Hey, it's not right.

I don't know
what is right.

But my personal feeling
is, and, and running

off on all of these
strange tangents,

I couldn't agree more.

I, and I, you know, we'll
try to qualify this as

much as I can and try
to avoid, uh, you know,

a nuclear explosion,
but here's what my

thoughts are on that.

You're talking about
events that occurred, you

know, hundreds of years
ago, you were talking

about events that were
say at the time church

led supported by the
current government and

forced by the RCMP.

Supported by the
public that puts

people into power.

Right.

So everybody along
the way had a play

in the horrible
things that occurred.

Sure.

There isn't one group
in that, including the

public that can turn
around and look at

anybody else and say
you are responsible

for that because the
person of today is as

responsible for those
events as you are.

Right.

Because you elected.

If we're going to go
down that rabbit hole,

you elected the people
in power at the time.

So therefore you
today are responsible

for what happened.

But people don't want
to kind of like that

because it's a process of
shifting responsibility.

It's.

Again.

That fault, not my fault.

Again, it's deflection.

Right.

And deflection is just
everywhere, but it's

li it leads us nowhere.

It leads us to
further divide.

Like we need to
understand that we

need 100% try to find
collective ways to make.

We'll never change
what happened.

It is absolutely
horrible.

You know, I don't even
want to go down that.

I mean, I think we all
understand how, how,

how absolutely horrible
those situations were.

And what are we doing
today to ensure that

this is never, ever,
ever, ever repeated.

That there is no
bleeding, you know, of,

of the same culture,
continuing to proliferate

all these other things.

And I can, I will
take ownership

of this all day.

But we need to
understand, it

was a very, very
different time.

All the people involved
for the majority,

like 99% of them
are dead, there's

no question there.

Um, especially those
in positions of power,

because it would have
been already in their

thirties or forties.

And so now it's how
do we move forward?

And what are we doing
now to make things.

You know, what one
other tangent here

and you brought it up.

And I just figured it's
just been sitting in

the back of my head.

Oh hell, go ahead.

Here we go.

I'm just warming up.

Yes.

COVID.

Yeah.

That's not a
contentious topic.

Probably a little
less contentious of

what we're talking
about at the moment.

Um, so friend of mine,
longtime friend, um, went

to high school with him,
gives me a phone call,

says Travis, I've been
tasked with taking a look

at how we can increase,
um, vaccination rates in

the Northern areas of the
province among hunters.

And he's, he works for
the provincial government

and he's a director and
he's got a lot of people

working under him and
they're looking, what,

why aren't we having a,
an adoption rate like

we'd like to see up
there of the vaccination?

I said, well, I can give
you my perspective and it

may or may not be shared
by these other people.

But I think a biggest
part of all of this

puzzle is, is how
that information

is communicated.

And just what you were
saying earlier about

not taking people's
intelligence for granted.

You know, there was
an article I read, I

believe it was Jeff
Bezos and whoever the

new, I think it was
Tim Cook, a few of them

talking about creating
cultures of success.

And they said,
unequivocally time and

time again, they find
that when the have a

group of individuals
who are highly driven

and they bring somebody
from the outside in to

join that group, that
person might not be

the most highly driven
person, but they will

match that drive that the
rest of the group has.

Likewise, if they have
a group of people who

are rather lazy and
they bring a highly

driven person and it
doesn't take long for

that person to kind
of meet that norm.

People will sort of
leveled to the, to

their environment to
kind of want to fit in.

So when we talk about
not underestimating

individual's intelligence
or the masses

intelligence, why don't
we just anticipate

that people have some
intelligence and they

can make a decision
if we present them

with that information?

So I, I took them through
point by point some of

where my concerns were.

I mean, nobody wants
to feel forced into

doing something.

Nobody wants to be
coerced if you give

them the information and
it makes sense they'll

probably readily jump
at it and went through

a plan that I figured,
the whole thing,

essentially just re
revolved around honesty

in how information
is being provided.

And we'll see.

,He's he took notes,
he said, well, I, I

doubt I have my doubts
and, and how all of

that will go across.

But I'm just a bit
of an interesting

aside talking about
responsibility and media.

Responsibility in
leadership, because he's

in a leadership role.

Why, why provide
information that's

partially true or true in
one respect, but doesn't

take into other things,
provided all there

for people to look at.

Like if, if the end
goal of vaccination

revolves around the
fact that our country

is publicly funded in
our health care, and

we lack ICU beds for,
to deal with a pandemic

on top of everything
else, then say that.

Maybe people will step
up and say, well, you

know, whether I believe
in COVID or not, where

they believe we'll
get this or not, I

do know that people
get in car accidents,

people get hurt.

And maybe if this will
lessen my effects of,

of, if I do get COVID
it'll lessen the strain

on ICU, then put that
out there for people.

I don't know.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, where you were
referring to earlier, I

thought that was worth
mentioning is called

synergical, basically
um, what's the word?

You know, what a con the
concept of synergy is,

essentially you bring
two people together.

If you have one person
dig a trench, how long

has it taken that person?

And if you bring another
person and they work

well together, how
much has it taken took

people, well, logic
would say half the time.

But the reality is it
could be as much as three

times as fast, right?

Inversely, you
can take that one

person that takes a
year to dig a hole.

You bring another person,
the wrong person, and

now you're dealing with
triple the time that

it would have taken
one person to do it

because you've negatively
impacted the masses.

But what you do, what
you are speaking of

is you already have
an established synergy

one way or another.

Now you're bringing
one person that gets

sucked in essentially
with the culture that's

already established.

Right.

It's very, very
powerful and it works.

And that's why you
want to have that

positive synergy in
your workplace so that

your people are actually
a force multiplier.

Right.

And they can do a lot
more with a lot less in

a lot more effectively.

Um, yeah.

And, um, where
was I going with

this again now?

Well I guess the

reason I kind of
segwayed into that,

cause it was brought
up about COVID and it's

interesting about how
media is putting it out

on how the governments
choosing to communicate,

brought all that up.

But the one overriding
thing that I saw

out of this whole
COVID experience

that was concerning
more than the lack of

toilet paper, right?

More than all of these
goofy little things that

are going on, was the
general group think.

Like that was scary
and that is scary.

And when you take
a look at how group

think is affecting
um, how we operate on

a day-to-day basis.

And I think that bleeds
back over into, uh,

organizations like the
RCMP and what that group

think looks like and how
people can break out of

just the, um, the echo
chamber, so to speak.

And it is something
where they can replicate

that Stanford, I think
it was you were saying,

the experiment where
you, where you have more

diversity in thought
to be able to come,

come to a solution,
but that, that the

general group think
that I'm seeing right

now, uh, is something
in if we're talking

about it and let's say
a policing, uh, context

is definitely something
that can use some work.

There's a lot of
positive in the group,

the group thing, but
there are areas within

the leadership and
in management that,

um, would need to be
positively effected

in order for ownership
to be taken on, on

different tasks.

And I, and I got
to wonder how

would you do that?

Yeah.

So what, it's,
it's a big, big

undertaking, right?

So for me, one of the,
excuse me, not sure

what's in there, cat
maybe or something.

Um, it, for me, one of
the, one of the areas of

focus has been changing
the culture from the

inside out, right.

Because here's what
the issue is when,

even when we're having
a conversation about

management and leaders,
all these people along

the way, all the way
that however, a high

of a rank you want it
to be, are thinking

of their leaders.

Right?

So now what we have done
is we've essentially

taken 80% of the
workforce and took

them out of the problem
solving equation.

We didn't do it, but they
did it because that's

what happens right?

And so for me, when
I hear, you know,

management this and
management that, the

question is always,
what are you doing?

What have you done today
to make things better

for the organization?

What have you done
today to make things

better for your peers?

What have you done today
for whatever X, Y, and Z?

Okay.

And if the answer is
nothing, zip it and get

something done, I don't
want to, you know, I

don't want to hear it.

I don't want to
hear deflection.

I don't want to
hear who can do

this for you or not.

We'll take, take some
actions, make some

calls and, and help
someone do something.

And so, um, I just, I
just think that again,

the more unpopular we
make it to be a certain

way, the easier it will
be to affect a change.

So we need to have
the masses pulling

in the same direction
and that's going to

be, that's going to be
putting some pressure.

Right.

And, and, and, and also.

People are starting
to leave the ranks

because they're retiring
or they're, they're

leaving the outfit or
whatever the case may be.

You're going to now
replace with a generation

that's been going
through, those changes.

And, uh, and, and,
and now are part of a

certain culture which
changes the culture of

the leadership, right?

So, so you, and I say
that to the people all

the time is, you are the
next wave of leaders.

Hence why it's so
important for us to,

and I mean, let's call a
spade, a spade, a police

officer that is sworn in
and receives a badge is

expected to be a leader.

Absolutely.

Constable or not.

They will be on critical
incidents scenes.

They will be dealing
with accidents.

They will be dealing
with problem solving.

They will be, they
will take the lead on

all of those things.

So to say, well,
you know what?

I'm not interesting
in leadership.

Well, that's for somebody
that isn't in policing.

Period.

Oh absolutely.

Once you become a
police officer, you've

abdicated the right
to not be a leader.

And that's not to say
that, you know, you

can't also follow cause
that's a critical quality

of a leader having
the ability to follow.

Yeah.

As well.

You need to be a
good follower to

be a good leader?

And I think most
leaders who are in

that position who have
received that training.

I remember at 12 years
old, I was one of the

things I had to memorize.

Leadership's the art
of influencing human

behavior in a manner,
uh oh, did I forget it?

Influencing human
behavior to accomplish

a mission in a manner so
desired by the leader.

A common goal, love it.

Best, best description
of leadership.

And if you look at
the L do you know

the description
of management?

It's a science,
not an art.

And what is it
normally assigned to?

Assets.

Right.

Things.

Right.

So I, I often hear that,
uh, very impressed with

you remembering that
by heart, by the way.

Um, but, um, but, uh,
yeah, you know, and

so now you have your
manager, your manager

versus leader kind
of, uh, conversation.

And of course you have
the people that we

know that manager meant
managerial tasks or a

part of leadership, or
the other way around,

isn't always the case.

So ultimately what
you, what we should be

striving for is having
those inspirational

leaders, the ones that
people want to be like.

Yes.

Not, not like the buy,
but be like, emulate,

emulate, and, and,
and, and, and, and, you

know, once you start,
once you start having

those types of leaders
and organizations, like

leaders are pumped out,
you know, quickly, it's.

Yes.

It's so interesting
because people will go

out and do the things
that that leader has

done to be where they
are or to be, or to have

the perspective that
the perspective that

they have or all these.

And we see it now with
all kinds of podcasts

that are out there as,
you know, you have the

Jocko, willing Cindy and
the, uh, you know, it's,

it's very interesting
how, uh, if, if Jocko

says something, all of
a sudden you have all

these leaders everywhere
going, okay, I should

probably be doing this.

I dropped the ball on
this, and now it's crazy.

We're in an age of
information where there's

zero, excuse not to
be up to par with the

information out there.

It's fantastic.

There's so much
information.

So as you're talking,
I, I made, uh, three

separate notes.

Yeah.

Because I think it would
be a value to people

who are listening at the
beginning, you're talking

about front-loading
on your day,

listening to positive
affirmations, listening

to positive people,
talking about things.

What is on your
playlist for that?

Who do, who do you
tend to listen to?

Well it depends what,
what kind of persuit

I'm I'm after, right.

If I'm listening to,
if I'm listening to a

straight up leadership
podcast generally is

going to be Jocko and
it's, and the reason

why I really like Jocko
notes just for Jocko.

Cause I relate to him,
he's a black belt in

JiuJitsu so am I, we have
all these other things,

but what I do like is
that David Burke and

all these other people
that he has on there

that are absolutely
incredible humans and

have wealth of knowledge
and of the Vietnam vets

and the SOG guys and
all these things, right.

And, um, and I really in,
and there will be reading

off the, you know, the
Marine Corps leadership

groups was of course
350 years of combined

leadership experience
in the Marine Corps.

I mean just incredible
leaders coming out

of the Marine Corps
as, as we know.

But, um, but I, this
will be for that pursuit.

Now, if I'm, if I'm,
um, in a mood for say

intellectual pursuit,
I'll be listening to the

Jordy, Jordan Peterson
or the Lex Freeman, or I

will be listening to, um,
who else am I listening

to on the daily?

Um, even, uh, what,
what's his name?

Weinstein or Bert
Weinstein or, and

then there's, um, Sam
Harris, even I will.

You know, like I, I
just, and again, you

know, there's some
contentions around

Jordy P and listen,
like when I listen.

That's a sharp,
sharp dude.

He is and when I
listen, when I listen

to, when I listen to
people like this, I

don't listen to gospel.

Like I'm not, you know,
drinking everything.

Right.

I take what I hear and
I process it in what

and, and, and I try to
affect my own mindset,

my own, uh, intellectual
sort of, you know,

sort of override my
own bias to try to see

other, other angles.

But at the end of the
day, I may look at Jordan

P and say, I totally
agree with 99% of what

you said today, but that
1% I can't get behind.

Well, 99% of the
stuff he says, isn't

absolutely concrete.

It's not.

Most of it is quite open.

It is.

And that's the beauty of
it that some people will

look at it and take it as
concrete and they'll get

right up in arms about
it when he's just making

a general question.

Most of it is questions.

Um, yeah.

Interesting.

But he's, you know, he's,
he's got one of the worse

personality traits you
can have, and that is

honest and genuine right.

Right.

And he's just honest
and it is a very

unpopular time to be.

It just, it just is.

But I think the more of
us stand up and actually

have the stones to do it.

Um, you know, we
need, we need more

and more of that.

And I think what you,
which what you're trying,

starting to see in the,
um, in the public, you

know, in the, on a social
media or otherwise, what

you are starting to see
is people starting to

understand that there's
some different areas here

that we have been, you
know, we went kind of

too far the other way.

So now they want to
bring that back to

the measured, you
know, on measured

ground, so to speak.

And then, and then, and
really have, um, I guess,

a more balanced approach
to some of the issues

that we're faced with
and used, you're starting

to see the tides turn.

Like you're starting
to see, you're starting

to see it, you know,
it's quite interesting.

It is.

Yeah.

It goes far one way.

It'll go far
the other way.

The universe has a
funny way of unfolding

as it should.

It is.

And it's cyclical right.

It is.

In a hundred years,
they'll have the

exact same issue.

Yeah.

It is.

It is what it is,
but we'll be long

gone by then.

So the other one I wrote
down here was, okay,

so you spent a fair bit
of time in policing and

ERT you're, you're in
roles of higher stress,

higher excitement, higher
exhilaration, high reward

for what you're doing for
effort out, what are you

doing to replace that?

No, yeah, it's, it's,
it's, it's hard, I would

say, but I would say
what I miss the most is

the thought process that
goes behind, um, solving

tactical dilemmas.

I just love to use
my brain and to have,

to problem solve
something that has

only bad um, solutions.

Just which one of those
is the less worse and

how are we going to
mitigate the risk and how

are we going to be able
to articulate taking a

certain course of action
and how is that course

of action justify and you
know, all those things.

So I really liked
the intricacies

of doing that.

I love doing that.

I missed out a ton and
it's interesting because

I, I will still get phone
calls, not necessarily

from my team, but I will
because they're very

capable, but I, but I
will get phone calls

sometimes from teams
across the country that

perhaps haven't had the
same exposure or, or, and

sometimes just to kind
of run problems by me.

And I love when
people do that.

Right.

Because it keeps me, it
keeps me thinking, it

keeps me engaged in the
problem solving realm.

But I would say
though, is in my

life, I have driven
absolutely everything

I do into the ground.

Everything.

Moderations for cowards.

I don't believe in it.

And, uh, when I wanted
to be a SWAT team leader,

I went all out and I
stayed there for 13

years, you know, 12 and a
half years, so to speak.

Well yeah.

I mean, and, and, and
so I literally took

that out of my system.

You know, I took it
out of my system.

Now, the one thing, the
one thing that I, that

I cannot put enough
emphasis on is you can't

let something define you.

Right.

If something defines
you completely.

Let me rephrase that.

Something may define
you partially.

External.

And partially.

Right.

You have to have a,
all these other pieces

that also define you.

Right.

So when one of those
pieces goes missing, you

are re you are capable
of reorging and being the

same person that you were
use, the experience that

you've acquired at the
time at which you were,

you know, involved in
this, in this engagement.

But th but it
doesn't destroy you.

So when, uh, one of
the things that we see

with old generations
RCMP is like the people

with 30, 40 years of
service is that a lot

of the times they feel
they are nothing if

they're not engaged.

Right.

So the death rate of
some of those members,

retiring police officers,
municipal, or otherwise

are astronomical because
the sense of purpose

has kind of completely
vanished and disappeared.

And, um, and it
couldn't be further

from the truth.

Oh, absolutely.

It couldn't be further
from the truth.

But what we need to do is
we need to start teaching

our young officers
and everybody, or

firefighters or whoever
to engage what you are

doing professionally
does not define you.

Those are all it's
part of who you are,

and it's a part.

If it goes away, just
like anything else,

you're going to re reorg,
regroup and go again

and, and, and, you know,
continue to be the person

that you are and have
a positive, positive

impact on others.

So for me, one of the
tiny little bit nice,

I always liked to be
engaged in, um, I don't

know how to, this is
quite interesting.

I don't generally
lose, you know, how

to articulate certain
things, but I'm having

an issue with this.

But it's essentially,
if we act on the premise

that I lived a warrior
ethos since I was very,

very young, either
through martial arts or

through my professional
engagements or whatever

the case may be.

And when I say warrior,
I don't, I don't

mean war in terms of.

No, I get what
you're saying.

But just live a
certain ethos.

I carry it on now.

I'm a JiuJitsu
black belt.

I got it this year
when I was retired.

Good for you.

Now I'm starting judo.

Next week, I'm going to
wrap a white belt around

my, around my waist.

This is my third
pursuit of black belt

over my course of my,
you know, my years

engage in martial arts.

I am 45 years old,
completely stoked

and excited to
go to judo route.

And I'm going to
get, you know, tossed

over and over again.

I'm going to learn, I'm
going to learn to things

and yeah, it's going to
be hard on my body and

all these other things.

But so now I've kind of
resurrected my energy.

Now I want to, I want to
be fully engaged in Judo.

And so I, I find all
those things that are

direct, almost, um,
I would say almost in

line with what I've and
how I've lived my life.

And I will find as many
of those things as I

can without, by way of
working out and going

on hikes with, you know,
if we go on hikes with

a family, I'll put a
weight vest on and you

know, I, I'm still in,
I'm still in that mode.

I can, I'm going to drive
this one into the ground.

And when they do find
my body, when it's all

said and done, they will
say this one is a done.

Done, nothing leftover.

And if there's ever
an option to bring

somebody back,
they'll say not him.

He's too beat up.

Too worn out.

He's definitely done.

Oh man.

Yeah.

That's, I like that
persp, so I guess at

the core that warrior
mindset is what defines

you, not so much the job,
not so much the martial

arts, not the leadership
. Training, but the mindset

or the drive of always
trying to the pursuit of

excellence essentially.

Would that be fair?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah it would be an,
I mean, let's get

something straight.

I never reached
it anywhere, but.

And no one does.

And that's, that's
why they call it the

pursuit of excellence.

And, and, uh, you
know, the line is, is

consistently pushed,
pushed, you know, over

and over and over.

And, and that's the
beauty of things.

And we do so many
things that we skim

the surface on.

Uh, and what you
start, what you start

understanding is
that once you start

going deeper into
things, there is so

much more enjoyment.

Um, one of the things
that I do with my groups,

when I, when I present,
especially on the, um, on

the introspective leader
course, is a simple

exercise to illustrate
how we're overthinking

certain things.

And I ask people
like, what do you like

dark or light coffee?

And people will
say, oh, I like

dark, I like light.

And then you
generally ask why.

And one of them will
say, well, dark is

stronger in caffeine
or whatever right.

Sure.

And so, and so the
reality is that, you

know, light coffee is not
roasted nearly as much.

So the grain are denser
and generally negligibly

higher in caffeine.

And if you really want
to increase your caffeine

content, you're going
to have to jack up

the amount of coffee
you're drinking, right?

And so that's one piece.

But the other piece to
this, aside from the

fact that most people
think that dark coffee

is actually stronger when
it isn't the other piece

to this is the taste
that you're after comes

from the regions, from
where to coffees come in.

Because coffee beans
take the taste of

their environment.

And so if you're going
to Brazil, your tea,

your coffee is nutty.

If you're going
into Ethiopia, your

coffee tastes more
like chocolate.

And so w and then once
you understand that

there is a word there,
what you start doing

is you stop focusing
on lighter, dark roast,

and you start looking at
where's the coffee from,

and what do I feel today.

You know, do I feel like
vanilla hint or do I feel

like, you know, and I'm
being a total clown, but

you know what I mean?

Like whatever the
case may be, and

then you can really
go down and explore

coffees and regions.

So imagine that you're
traveling to Hawaii,

you're traveling to
Iceland, you're traveling

to all these regions.

And all you've ever said
is I want a dark coffee

you've missed out on, you
know, how many thousands

of potentially incredible
flavour of coffee.

And so this is a really,
really oversimplified

process and I'm
not even touching

the surface of it.

Cause I got, you know,
a very, um, you know,

rudimentary level
coffee knowledge.

Right.

There's people having
masters in coffee.

Sure.

You know, coffee
sommelier.

100% there are.

And so, but the beauty
with this and the beauty

of the introspective
leader course is that

I believe that you can
convey a message to

people that this will
not only make you a

better leader, but it
would also teach you to

appreciate life more.

I would agree with
that a hundred percent.

It is absolutely amazing
to go everywhere around

the world and say,
here's an Iceland coffee.

Where does this grow?

What does it taste like?

It's light, dark, medium.

Doesn't matter.

Like, I want to try that.

So now you try that
and you're like, wow,

that was absolutely
amazing, right.

And we do that with
absolutely everything.

We, we tend to really
really say surface level.

We do.

Even though information
is readily available

more than in any other
time in human history.

That's probably
why we stay surface

level because.

It's too easy to
just find out.

It is.

And there's so much
information out there

that the retention level
of the information that

comes and goes, it comes,
it goes, to process.

We today take in on
a daily basis so much

information that it
can be completely

overwhelming for, for
most people, honestly.

And it kind of puts them
into a place of inaction.

And I, I love that.

That's Hicks law, right?

Hicks law, I was just
going to say that yeah.

Having to having too
many options and, and,

and, and it stifles your
ability to make a call,

but here's what needs
to happen in my opinion.

And I, you know,
um, what matters

at the time, right?

And so the issue
is you're right.

We're consistently
bombarded by all

those things, and
we're doing it 24 7.

Now, if I'm selecting
coffee and I live in the

moment, I'm selecting
coffee right now, I

know thinking about my
phone call to Karen.

Right.

And so if we have,
and this comes down to

mindfulness ultimately.

And so if, if we have
the ability to actually

focus on the now and a
little bit before and a

little bit after just,
you know, for, for good

measure, we now we now
can focus our attention.

The now, and what
is the decision that

I'm making right now
and what is entailed

in that decision?

And, you know,
and so it's not an

overthinking process.

It's like, yeah, it's
useless information

until you need it.

Right.

And there is no one
of the, it works

hand-in-hand with the
fact that our brains have

the ability to retain.

Listen, there's people
out there that can

recite an entire
yellow phone book.

There is no limit to
how much information

we can have.

The problem is, is there
is limit to our focus.

Right.

That's what
the problem is.

So you can have the
information that you can

use when convenient, but
it's going to take you 10

minutes to understand how
to select your coffee.

That 10 minutes you
just invested in years

of coffee enjoyment.

Right.

To be used when you
are selecting coffee.

Not when you're running
your team meeting, right.

You know, a bunch
of things that you

brought up there.

And, you know, you might
have to come on for

another podcast if I can
coerce you just because

I don't want to go too
long for everybody here.

It's interesting though,
they, they, they've.

People are listening
to the long podcast.

It's completely insane.

They break them
down in pieces.

And Jordan Peterson
was talking about that.

He says, you would
think that a three-hour

podcast wouldn't
be as successful.

And he's like, they're
the more successful.

Really?

Yeah.

Okay.

Well maybe I've got
to start breaking

it down into pieces.

Break the mold.

I've always gone for
45 minutes to an hour.

My ethos behind the
podcast was, and is, I

want to bring something
positive to people.

Sure.

I want to bring either
entertainment or

education or something
that they can walk away

with and say, I learned
something or I'm better

for listening to it.

So in that I try to plan
the podcast and plan the

guests to bring value
to the listener base.

And I figure, they're
going to tune out

after a certain point.

So I've always looked
at maybe I'll just put

it out there, anybody
listening who's made it

this far, let me know.

Okay.

Let me know what
you like to hear

Podcasts@Silvercore.ca.

But when you're talking
about, um, what defines

you, you're talking
about, um, when we

look at, when you're
on the job, when you

come out and, uh, what
you're doing for that

excitement level, as well
as living in the moment.

I very good
friend of mine.

He's actually been on
this podcast in the

past, and he's talked
about his SAS selection.

He talked about his
time British army, and

he was operating the
338 Lapua over there.

I used to say Lapooa
until I was schooled

over at SHOTShow.

and no, no,
no, it's Lapwa.

Okay.

Okay guys.

At their booth.

Um, but he is, he
got into extreme

alpinism and, um, he
does that a fair bit.

He's going through his
ACMG mountain guide

creditation and all the
rest, and, uh, found that

it's a very, uh, positive
outlet for him where

he's now making those
operational decisions.

In the mountain, you'll
have a group that

he'll be bringing up
and he's brought me

up a number of times
and definitely pushed

my boundaries as well
when, for the better.

But it really forces
you to be in the moment.

And maybe that's a
situation of unconscious,

unconscious coping,
where as opposed to just

being mindful, you're
now forced to be mindful.

When you're surfing,
you're forced to be

mindful in the moment.

When you're rock
climbing, you're forced

to look at every time,
every place you put your

hand, every, every piece
of gear that you put into

a crack and check it.

Um.

It's outcome focused.

It is.

If you don't do it, you
will, something critical

or dire could happen.

And it's exactly the
same with JiuJitsu, it

forces you to be in that
role, if you're thinking

about your office meeting
or something else, your

back just got taken.

But th in all of that
thinking, cause I watched

him as he goes through
and as he gets, he's

getting older and he's
maturing in his alpinism

and all the rest.

And he's had some
injuries and, and

seeing the, uh, the
thought process behind.

Like you look at,
uh, the Ueli Steck.

I don't know if you've
ever heard that name

before, but in, in the
alpinism world, kind of

a big name passed away
a few years ago, but he

had just record runs up
a lot of, uh, very iconic

mountains with little
to no gear and, and just

like no time at all.

But at some point
of pushing, pushing,

pushing, and driving
things like you do

with the different
activities you get into,

you reach a point of
diminishing returns.

And in Ueli's case, he's
no longer around anymore.

He had a fall on one
of his trips, did, not

adequate protection.

That mental management
process and that mindset

of knowing enough,
like, what is enough?

When do you have enough?

Do you find that
difficult when you

start getting into these
different endeavors

that you get into?

Like, what is the, what
am I going to be happy?

What's enough.

Well, I'm going
to reframe the

question for you.

Okay.

Was that gentlemen
going to a destination

or is the journey
that he enjoyed?

Which one?

Ueli or?

Yeah, Ueli.

I mean, it's the journey
that he truly enjoyed.

Right.

He wasn't going
anywhere, right?

So now let's, let's,
let's take Ueli, with

the same fire inside
of him and let's sit

him on a porch for
the last 30 years.

Actually let's sit him
on the porch at the time

of death and say, we
just extended your life

30 years and you can
sit here and watch the

birds and the cars go by.

And then.

Say hell no.

And then go back and
say, okay, look, we're

going to return you
30 years before, but

on one of those climbs
you're going to be done.

You would pick that.

I can guarantee it.

For somebody like that,
I would have to agree.

A hundred percent.

So, so for me, it's,
we're acting and this

is just, it's just
a societal thing.

And I think it just
has to do with the

fact that we're so
comfortable, right?

If you were in
Somalia right now,

I grew up there.

You wouldn't be thinking
that far in advance

because you've seen
people die left, right.

And center
incessantly every day.

So you're not, you're
also could be very,

very different.

We're seeing death
as this big monster.

None of us is coming
out of this alive.

None of us is like this
isn't, this isn't a

destination type thing,
this is a journey.

And he died doing what
he loved the most.

It would have been no
different for me if I

was dying, doing some
tactical operation,

hopefully by not
something completely

stupid that I did.

Sure.

You know, and or,
or somebody else did

that now they have
to live with that.

But if, if we were to
take all the complex

complexity outside,
you know, out of it

and say, okay, you
stood up for what you

felt was right at a
time at which somebody

needed to step up.

And you like many before
you have done have

sacrificed your life.

Sign me up.

Very good point.

I just, I just think
that longevity versus

intensity, I'll
take intensity of

my life, you know?

Um, and that's just.

Every man dies.

Not every man
truly lives.

That's just, that's just
how I feel about it.

I just, I just truly
think that if he was

given the choice, he
probably would have

picked the same choice.

I like that.

Yeah.

Well, one last
thing I have here.

Yeah.

That was actually going
to start with this, but

we kind of went through
and are in a route here.

But when I look at the
podcasts that you've been

doing right recently,
I, you see the number

of podcasts and places
that you've been, uh,

you've been speaking.

It strikes me that
it's similar to working

out it's similar to
JiuJitsu and that you're

training for something.

Am I correct in the, in
that casual observation,

are you training for
a, uh, for something?

A podcast marathon.

Your, your own podcast
or to be on certain

podcasts, hopefully
in the future?

Or is there, do you
have a goal in that?

I mean, it would be
semi disingenious to

say I don't have a goal.

I mean, my goal is
always to get better.

Right.

And I like to be, I like
to have conversations.

I love to have
conversations.

It's especially
productive to way,

you know, bilateral
communication

conversations.

Um, and I like to
do it because I know

that, um, I, I have an
ability to generally

connect with people.

So I, I know that
there is value to it.

So I, I really
enjoy doing that.

And I don't overstate
the value of it.

I don't think I'm
critically important

or anything like that.

But what I do think is
that there are certain

conversations there ought
to be had that we're

not having, that I would
love to be a part of.

And if going on bigger
and bigger platform is

something that's down
the road for me, I

would, I would love that.

I would love that.

Here's the other thing.

And that's something
that surprised quite

a few people, but I
also would be totally

okay with going a
podcast and not speak

about policing at all.

Right.

At all.

I can, I can have
conversations about a

million different things,
and I'm not suggesting

that during an entire
three-hour podcast,

I'm not going to refer
to an experience that

I had or something,
you know, because

it's been a part of me
for so long and it's

taught me some valuable
lessons, but in terms

of the actual topic.

Uh, it could be
absolutely anything.

I just love to have
conversations and I,

and being on podcasts
really feels good.

Like I love to do it.

I love to do it.

I think it, I think
it's, and so people

have suggested, you
know, you, maybe you

should have your own
and all these other

things, I really don't
want to do any editing.

And I, and I don't
think I'm that great

of an interviewer's
to be honest with you,

and maybe I become
better or, you know.

But I just, um, I just
prefer, I just kind of

prefer being a guest,
if that makes any sense.

Oh it does.

You know, when I started
this podcast, I hadn't

listened to it really,
any podcast prior.

I was on a podcast, a
friend of mine had me

on his podcast, he's
got a local business

here in these, uh,
teaches new hunters and,

and, uh, that was fun.

And then I, uh, went
down, I saw Steve

Rinella, he's got a
Netflix show called

MeatEater, and he's a.

Yeah, I follow the show.

I watch it, Joe
Rogan and everything.

I just love the show.

So got to meet Steve
and Janice and a few

of the other people
on there and actually

became good friends with
one of the people who's

with MeatEater there.

And, uh, I thought,
well, this is kind

of neat, but entirely
outside my comfort zone.

I've got ADHD, I have
a conversation up until

a point where I loose
interest and usually

that's why I just
get up and walk away.

That's so this has been
a for me something to

share my positivity, and
it's been a very positive

outlet to try and support
others in the, uh, who

have similar interests.

And I've specifically
not called this the,

like say the MeatEater
podcast, or the, uh,

the firearms podcast,
because those are only

small portions of things
that interests me.

And it's kind of, in
some ways, um, it can be

detrimental in the short
term because people look

at the title and like,
what the hell am I going

to be listening to here?

But I'm hoping that in
the longterm, the breadth

of the guests and the
breadth of what we're

bringing in with the
underlying positivity, as

well as, as we do this,
I can feel, I feel myself

very slowly getting
a little bit better,

less um's and ahh's and
better able to engage.

So similar to where
you're at, uh, not only

as a positive thing,
I found I've found the

podcast to be a challenge
and something that

requires constant study,
constant concentration,

research on people.

How, how do I engage
better or better

equipment or whatever
it might be so.

It's, um, definitely
a different experience

hosting the podcast
than being on a

podcast as a guest.

I don't know, I think,
uh, if you ever do

want to, uh, take
on that challenge,

I think he would do
very, very well at it.

Yeah.

I've, I've heard that,
I've heard that a few

times and I, I, you
know, it's almost like

something, something in
me says, um, now is not

the time type deal, you
know, like it just, just.

Trust your gut.

Yeah and I've yeah.

The reason why I really,
really believe that

is that I've pretty
much run my life

like this, and it's
always paid dividends.

And sometimes I could be
having this conversation

with you and tomorrow
morning, I'm ready to

have my own podcast.

Right.

You know what I mean?

Like it, it changes.

Click.

Really quickly.

And then it's like,
okay, the time is

right, knuckle down that
let's get this done.

So it will be interesting
right now, of course

I'm floating, right.

And at very living
very organically

since retiring from
a very structured and

regimented, you know,
um, lifestyle over the

course of my military
and then RCMP career.

Essentially, I've been
institutionalized for

the better part of my
adult life and so now I'm

learning to, you know, do
things very organically

and I really enjoy it.

So we'll see, it's
not outside the

realm of possibility.

I would love to hit,
you know, the, the, the

Jordan Peterson to Joe
Rogan's the, the, the,

the Jocko, if there's a,
uh, you know, if I can

contribute something,
if, if there's a, if

there's a feeling a
true, a true feeling

that I can contribute
something positive.

Right.

And that's that's that.

I wouldn't want to
just go there just

to go with there.

You know, you look
at me, I'm on the

Jocko podcast and what
am I talking about?

Well, whatever.

Oh, you'd look back
and you wouldn't

be proud of that.

No, exactly.

So, yeah.

Very cool.

So maybe we'll just wrap
this up with, if we did

another podcast, what,
if you could do a podcast

about anything, anything.

Pull it out of a
magic box and say,

this is what we're
going to talk about.

What would you
want to talk about?

Wow.

That's um, that's
a tough one.

If we could do a podcast
on absolutely anything.

Or would that just change
day by day, depending

on what's currently?

No.

There is so many subjects
and so many things

that I'm interested in.

Um, and I think we have
a vested interest in

absolutely everything
that surrounds us, right.

And so we could talk
about, you know, kids

and raising 'em and we
could talk about outdoors

and, and, and, and we
could talk about travel.

We could talk about,
you know, like, I mean

the animals and the list
just goes on and on, you

know, animals might get
weird though here, it's

a hunting podcast, right.

So we'll leave the, leave
the animals out of there.

You know what I
think it'd be fun

to talk about?

What?

Your new business
and starting it and

the challenges of
running a business.

Sure.

The other thing that'd be
kind of interesting cause

I got a sense I could
be wrong, but I think

there's a spirituality
to, uh, to the martial

arts and to you and
what you do and how

that guides the mental
management process, which

we didn't even touch on.

And I think that whole
aspect would be a very

interesting one to talk
about, but maybe, um,

maybe we just put a pin
in this one for now and

uh, go get some food.

Yeah man.

I'm all for spirituality
podcast down the line.

Thanks for having me.

Thank you very much for
being on this podcast.

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What is The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader?