99: How to create motion design side projects that complement your day job w/ Charli Marie

Show Notes

Sign up for our free training, Balanced Business Masterclass here! https://motionhatch.com/pod

Looking to pursue motion design side projects but unsure how to find balance with your day job? In today’s episode Charli Marie explains how side projects can help motion designers to improve their craft and process.

About Charli Marie

Charli Marie is a Youtuber, podcast host and Creative Director at email marketing company ConvertKit. 

Throughout her working career, Charli has always pursued some side projects outside of her 9-5 role. Currently she creates weekly content on her YouTube channel and podcast, Design Life, sharing insights into life as a professional designer alongside tutorials and advice on design tools and concepts.

Read the full shownotes 

What is Motion Hatch: Helping Motion Designers Do Better Business?

Motion Hatch is a bi-weekly podcast hosted by veteran motion designer Hayley Akins, discussing the business side of animation and motion design that so many creatives struggle with.

Offering quality practical advice and insight for freelance, full-time or aspiring animators, illustrators and motion designers, hear from a wide range of voices within the industry, including how leading animators started out, tips on managing your business and career advice.

For more info on how to take control of your motion graphics career and to join our community of amazing, talented designers, head over to http://motionhatch.com.

[00:00:00] Charli: Yeah, I definitely think that you can't consider management as the only path to growth. I really saw taking on a management role as really being able to have an impact on a certain group of people, right? And help them with their careers, which is what I do through my side hustles through my YouTube channel.

But by managing a team, I can have this like one on one relationship with people to be helping them progress in areas that they want to move into.

[00:00:25] Hayley: Hey Hatchlings, welcome to the Motion Hatch podcast. I'm your host, Hayley Akins.

Hey Hatchlings and welcome to episode 99 of the Mission Hatch podcast. I can't believe that the next episode is actually episode 100. We've got a really fun episode coming up for you with lots of contributions from listeners, which I'm very, very grateful for. So please make sure you subscribe and keep an eye out for episode 100.

Today on the show we have Charlie Marie. Charlie is a YouTuber, podcast host and creative director at email marketing company ConvertKit. We actually use ConvertKit at Motion Hatch and we really do love it. If you want to check out ConvertKit go to motionhatch. com forward slash ConvertKit. You can get a free account up to 1000 subscribers.

This is an affiliate link. So if you do happen to reach 1000 subscribers and pay for the platform, we will receive a small commission, but it's no extra cost to you and it does help support this podcast. Charlie and I spoke about how to create side projects that compliment your full time gig. How to manage your time.

So you don't get burnt out, which I know is very, very important and how to hire people when you have a side hustle. So I really love all the content that Charlie is putting out in the world and I think that you're going to be very inspired by this episode, so let's get into it. Hey Charlie, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Yeah, thanks for having me here. I'm excited to talk to you. So do you want to start by telling the audience a little bit about

[00:01:57] Charli: yourself and what you do? Yeah. So, I mean, I always find introducing myself really hard because this is so many things that go into like who I am, what I do, but I'm the creative director at ConvertKit, we can start there.

So that's where I work full time. I lead the brand team. Um, and then on the side, I have a YouTube channel called Charlie and Marie TV. I have a couple of podcasts, Design Life and Inside Marketing Design. Um, a blog, a weekly marketing design newsletter. I'm currently writing a book about marketing design.

Um, so you can tell that I'm a little obsessed with, you know, marketing and brand design in general.

[00:02:30] Hayley: Yeah. And I mean, the reason why I wanted to bring you on the show was because you're doing so much and I'm like. How's Charlie doing with stuff? It's pretty incredible.

[00:02:39] Charli: I'm like, tell me all your secrets.

Yeah. I wish there was a secret that would be, I like, I feel like I could, um, charge people for that, you know, if there was an actual secret to it, maybe that could be a good moneymaker.

[00:02:49] Hayley: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Let's all, let's all know about that. Well, so, um, yeah, I wanted to say that I'm just really impressed.

And especially the fact that you, you know, obviously have a job and you, um, do your YouTube channel and then like two podcasts. And all of this stuff. So would you mind sharing a little bit about how you manage your time and how you kind of juggle all that together?

[00:03:12] Charli: So I think one important thing to note when we think about like how I juggle my time for things is that I didn't go from zero to like how, how it is today.

In an instant, you know, these are all projects that I've slowly like added to over time and like some projects have come in and faded out. Um, cause I think that once a project is like. Maybe once you're used to doing it, once it becomes second nature and it's like more mature in a way, it, it becomes easier to fit in the time for it.

So I just want to clarify that, that it didn't go from having no side projects to suddenly having a couple of YouTube channels, couple of podcasts, streaming, et cetera, overnight. But the main way that I structure my time, because the company I work for, ConvertKit, is a U. S. company. So I find I'm working generally until like 7 or 8 p.

m. Most evenings. Which is, uh, you know, pretty late for me here in Spain, but it does mean that I start my work day later. So I have my mornings pretty free for like, you know, my own personal time, doing a workout, things like that, but also working on side projects. And even when I worked in an office, you know, back in the day, before I was in this remote work life.

I would still work on my side projects before work. That was my habit and my pattern that I got into. Um, back then it meant getting up at like 5 a. m. to fit in a couple of hours editing before getting on the tube in London. Um, so I'm thankful that now it can be a little bit more of a civilized hour that I'm working on my side projects.

But that's, that's basically how it fits into my day is I make sure to dedicate an hour or two each day to the side hustles before I start my full time job. Cause I find that afterwards I am exhausted and just ready to like, make some dinner and sit in front of the TV for the evening.

[00:04:53] Hayley: Yeah. I, I just wanted to ask you about like, cause that's so much time and effort to put in, you know, what, what kind of drives you to do this extra stuff?

Because I'm sure you could just be quite comfortable. Working at your job, you know, I use ConvertCat, I think they're a really cool company, and like, that's also an exciting thing to do, right? It is! But, um, yeah, like, what drives you to do all of the, I guess, the kind of extra stuff, and how do you think that plays into your career?

[00:05:21] Charli: Yeah, I don't know if this sounds bad for me to say, but I don't think I would be happy just working my full time job. I just cannot imagine doing that. I, ever since university, and even before that, maybe, I guess, like, if I look back on, my always starting up a project or another, it's just second nature to me.

I like, I have to do it. I have to be building my own thing and like bringing my own ideas to life. You know, I, I'm afraid I don't know any other way. Um, and there is obviously times when the motivation dips and you don't feel like doing the thing that day, but I kind of see it as like, I owe it to myself to work on this, you know, and to be moving things forward, even if it's only a tiny bit each day, because I know that.

within me, like, this is what I want to do. And so, I'm the only one, when it's my own project, who can make that happen. And so, if I choose to, like, be lazy and not work on it, then I'm only letting myself down, really. And so, I guess it's part of that what drives me, um, but also just, I I feel this calling to it, you know, I don't know how to not be a creator.

[00:06:26] Hayley: Yeah, totally. I, I wonder, cause I think many people listening to this show, you know, we're always talking about work life balance and stuff like that. How do you personally like negotiate that, I guess? And, you know, And do you try and make more time for yourself as well, and how do you get around that stuff?

[00:06:45] Charli: Yeah, I feel like when I was in my 20s, I had so much more energy to give to my side projects. I could do the early mornings, the late nights, the, like, working all the weekend, and I was totally fine, and, like, I loved it. I loved spending my life that way. Like prioritizing projects. Now that I'm in my 30s, like, I don't know if it's just I've been doing the projects for a while or if it is just getting older, but I definitely don't have as much energy.

Um, I try to always have at least one weekend day where I am at. Not even thinking about projects at all. I'm not even turning on my computer. And ideally both days on the weekend is I'm doing that. Um, it depends what I've got on. So I try and like make sure I'm fitting in the side hustle work on the weekdays so that I can still have that weekend.

Um, I think as I've, you know, been doing this more and getting older, I've learned what's important to me, what I should prioritize. There were times. In my twenties, where I think I prioritized the YouTube consistent schedule above all else. And I would like choose to not go hang out with my friends that day because I knew there was a video I had to get up and I hadn't edited it yet and I had to do it, which is really fricking sad, you know, to think about now.

But, um, that was how I handle things and, you know, how my channel grew back then. Nowadays, I would choose to go hang out with my friends and I would just skip the upload for the day. Um, You know, swings and roundabouts, it all changes.

[00:08:08] Hayley: Yeah. So do you use, cause I saw that you did a video about Notion basically.

So I was wondering about, is that the main tool that you use to organize all of this stuff? Is there anything else that you use or would recommend for people trying to set up projects outside of their work?

[00:08:24] Charli: Yeah, I found Notion works really well for me, but honestly, so does pen and paper. So every week I use, um, Oh, what's it called?

It's called Analog by Augamonk. It's this little system that audio listeners won't be able to see, but video ones can, that I'm holding up right now. It's like a little note card that sits in this lovely wooden thing on my desk. And, um, every week I write down a list of what is all the side hustle stuff I need to do this week, and it goes there.

And it's sitting in front of me. It's not hidden away in an app, um, or, you know, it's there. And I'm looking at it every day when I look at my computer. I also use a bullet journal every day to plan out tasks for the day. And, um, I found that works better for me than a digital to do list because. I find the task get lost.

If I'm not actively looking at the app, I'm going to forget to do it. So I love Notion for like higher level planning of like a schedule of what video will go out when and what the script is for that video and to work with my VA as well, which maybe we'll talk about later. But, um, for my own, like things I need to do each day, I'm all about pen and paper.

[00:09:24] Hayley: Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. I think that, um, Because I interviewed Matt Ragland, which I know that you worked with him for a bit. He's a

[00:09:31] Charli: big bullet journal enthusiast. Yeah,

[00:09:33] Hayley: exactly. And then I watched some of his videos and then I interviewed him and I was like, wow, now I'm going to do this. And it really helps to just like, use the digital stuff for that kind of higher level.

Kind of thing like you were saying and then have like your weekly task and then every day go back to them and like drawing little arrows to make sure that you're putting, you know, Oh, I haven't done those ones. I need to do them tomorrow and all of that kind of stuff. Like, yeah, I've started doing that too.

It's really, really helpful to make sure you get things done.

[00:10:01] Charli: Also, isn't it so So much more satisfying to mark something off with a pen, like cross it off the list rather than just like check and like click the little tick icon in an app. I don't know, maybe that's just me, but I find it so satisfying.

[00:10:14] Hayley: Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, in Asana they do have like some sort of unicorn or weird thing that like goes across the screen when you take something off, a lot of things off sometimes. So, you know, like. I do want that to happen more in my life. Yeah, yeah. Everyone's gonna be like, it's not a unicorn. I know it's not a unicorn, it's something with a horn on its head.

I don't know what it's called. Whatever it is, it's satisfying. Yeah, exactly, but no, I agree with you. Doing the scribbling, and I'm always like, I've done that, and just scribbling it out so much, especially when it's been on your list for a little while, so. Yeah. That's great. Um, you know, I really appreciate you talking about this because I think that everybody listening is Al always asking about this, like, how can we be more productive?

How can we do our personal projects on the side and um, you know, how can we organize it and all of that kind of thing. So, um, I wanted to talk about as well, like how important you feel it is for like you or and other people to do these kind of creative things outside of your work.

[00:11:14] Charli: Yeah, so I think there's two reasons to have a, like a side project, creative projects outside of work.

One is because it will fulfill you creatively, you know, maybe at your full time job, you don't get all of your like creative fulfillment needs met. You know, like as part of my job at ConvertKey, I definitely get to do a lot of design, which I love, and it was really important to me in feeling creatively fulfilled, but I also really like To teach, right?

Um, and I like making videos and like making content, building an audience. That's not really what I'm paid to do at ConvertKit. You know, maybe there's a little bit of it now and then I do run a podcast, um, at work called the future belongs to creators, but I, Need to get that creative fulfillment from somewhere.

And so it comes from the side projects. Like I was saying, it's just something that I need to do and that I need to exist. But another side to it, and I would not recommend this being the only reason you have a project, but it can go a long way in building your reputation. So if you're a freelancer, or even if you're just trying to make a name for yourself in a certain industry to get a full time job, having projects on the side of work can help showcase your skills.

It can help get. in front of the right people who might be potential clients or potential employers. And it can go a long way towards building a reputation. So you have more to you than just your portfolio and your CV.

[00:12:37] Hayley: Yeah, I think that's true. And I mean, especially like with this podcast, almost sometimes it's just like, Oh, an excuse so I can talk to people, you know?

Um, but I mean, yeah, like after, I mean, we're almost, uh, this might be episode 99 or, 98. I'm not sure, but we're almost going to be at a hundred. And I just think, wow, that's like a hundred people that I got to speak to and build relationships with, you know, which I think is really important. Do you feel like some, well, obviously you do a work podcast and then you've got a couple of other ones.

Do you feel like that helps you to build relationships? With people and things like that.

[00:13:14] Charli: Yeah, for sure. It can like, um, my inside marketing design podcast is when I started last year, because I honestly just really wanted to learn about how other companies ran marketing design. I was like, who is on their team?

How many people are working on a project? What timeframes do they have to work on a new like web design? I just wanted to know all these details and there's no way you can find that out. Online, I, believe me, I searched cause all this was going into like trying to figure out my own team structure and how we should do things at ConvertKit.

And so I decided to start this show and it has given me a chance to learn myself from people, right? Like these are calls I would love to be having anyway, and like questions I would love to be asking people anyway, but I'm recording them so that I can share the information with others, you know, and maybe if there's anyone else out there who was looking for the same information I was, Now they have a place to find it, right?

[00:14:03] Hayley: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think it's just so true, and especially of podcasts. I mean, I think you do get a little bit of that with YouTube as well, like, depending if you're, how much you're doing collaborations and, and all of that kind of stuff. Um, so yeah, I wanted to talk a bit about the channel cause, um, You know, I think you've got about 200, 000 subscribers now, which is amazing, congrats!

Yeah, thank you! That's awesome. But I wanted to talk about, like, when you first started, and a bit about your mindset then, and what you kind of, your expectations were from YouTube. So, Um, did you think that you would ever get to 200, 000 and what goals did you have in mind when you first started out, if you can remember?

[00:14:44] Charli: Yeah,

[00:14:44] Hayley: I definitely

[00:14:45] Charli: remember because YouTube does this thing that you probably know about when, when you reach a hundred thousand subscribers, you get a silver play button that they send you this little plaque. And right from the start, like before I even had a channel, like when it was just an idea. That was my goal.

I was like, I want that super play button. That seems so cool. All the YouTubers I admire have one, and that just felt like that would be the height of success, you know? Like, if I could get there, that would be incredible, and I would be so proud. And so, I definitely took YouTube. I took it seriously, I would say, like I, I was doing it for fun, you know, um, because especially in the beginning stages, making zero money from it, you know, like, the only reason to do it was because I wanted to be doing it, but I was also trying to make an effort, you know, I was really consistent with my schedule, I was trying to learn from like, oh, what's the right way to run a YouTube channel, how, how should you edit videos to keep people watching, and I was putting time into learning all that, because I did want to build an audience on there, um.

And so, yeah, then I reached that 100, 000, I can't even remember what year it was now, a couple of years ago, and got the silver play button. And, uh, that was amazing.

[00:15:52] Hayley: Yeah. So how, do you know how long it took you to do that? I, I, cause I think I saw you said you've been doing it for like seven years or something recently.

That's

[00:16:01] Charli: so long. It's crazy. I can, I can pull it up. So, cause I keep all these stats in Notion, you see, of when I hit certain milestones on YouTube. Um, so it took me four years and nine months on YouTube to reach 100, 000. Um, and then another year and, nope, another, about three years after that to hit 200, 000.

Cause I've been doing YouTube for, yeah,

[00:16:24] Hayley: eight years this month. Wow. Well, congratulations. It's awesome. Thanks. I just wanted to bring that up because I think that, um, sometimes people are expecting like immediate results from stuff. You know, even like when you're maybe trying to reach out to clients, or you're trying to like, improve your social media, and like, you know, connect with people on there, and all that kind of thing.

I think everyone's like, expecting it to work, like, overnight. Like, oh yeah, if I just put like, like, three tutorials out, like I'll get 100, 000 subscribers. Or if I, you know, just that

[00:16:57] Charli: easy,

[00:16:59] Hayley: if I just like email three clients, I'll get a job. And, you know, that kind of thing. And, and I just, I like to, you know, be realistic and talk to people about, well, you know, these people got to that place, but it did take them a long time and it wasn't like an overnight success.

Cause I think that's, that's, you know, you know, the worst thing, because it kind of doesn't really exist. And even if it does, there's usually some sort of like, behind the scenes thing happening, like, that person already had an audience, or they did something before, or, you know, that kind of thing.

[00:17:28] Charli: Yeah, absolutely.

And I think that's why I say that if you're going to have a project on the side, like running a YouTube channel, it cannot be just for the reputation building side of things. It is so hard to keep up with something consistently for literally years on end, which is what you need to do, you know, to have success on YouTube.

If you don't have a passion for it, and if you don't just genuinely want to be doing it, I mean, all power to you if you're able to push through that and do it despite not wanting to, but I, I just don't see how it's possible. And so that's a really important part of the like side hustle formula.

[00:18:00] Hayley: Yeah, it's really interesting cause I think it just plays into this, um, us making our personal projects.

There's motion designers and stuff as well. And like, we're always trying to make these really long films and that kind of thing, you know, and it's like, it's taken years. And sometimes I always tell everyone to like, well, you should break it down, you know, into more, either easier steps or maybe just smaller projects that you can eventually make into a bigger project and things like that.

So I think there's kind of. Ways around doing stuff too to make it a little bit easier, so we don't have to just sort of like brute force it, I guess. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, so I want to know what you kind of wish you knew when you first started your YouTube channel that maybe you know now.

[00:18:44] Charli: I think that when I started on YouTube, I made content around So many different things.

Like, you would go on my channel, and you might find a video about design, which was, like, the reason I started the channel in the first place. You'd also find fashion videos, maybe me talking about makeup, maybe me sharing a recipe, maybe me doing a DIY project. Like, there was a lot of different stuff on there.

And I don't regret that. I think I needed to do that. Like that was what I was finding fun in the early days was making all those different types of content. But I really did notice a like steeper growth curve, I guess. Um, once I committed to the niche of design and once I focused on making design videos.

So. Maybe that's something that I would go back and tell myself. I mean, I don't know if I would have listened, though, because everyone always says, like, pick a niche, go after a niche, and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it, I get why it's important, but I've seen firsthand the power that it had, right, in committing to a niche.

It changed not only my growth trajectory, but also my reputation and the way people would describe me, you know, um, which is essentially what your reputation is, right? It's like, how would people talk about you if you're not in the room? Because beforehand I was seeing people talk about me as a fashion YouTuber, as a vlogger, as a DIY YouTuber.

I was on a bunch of DIY panels at video events as well. But after I made this change, and it took a while to filter through, but now I get talked about as a designer, or as a design content creator, specifically. And it took that niche focus for me to make that happen. Even though I was always a designer, I was always a design content creator, but that's just not what people saw me as.

Cause I was also making this other types of content. So maybe I would try and like, drill that into my early self's brain to like, not be afraid to make that commitment to a niche earlier on.

[00:20:31] Hayley: Yeah, I was, uh, I'm always wondering like, if you feel like, or you've seen examples of people do it the other way around as well, because, um, You know, say, like, for example, this podcast, you know, is very, like, focused on the business side of motion design and stuff like that.

Like, eventually, I think what I would like to help other people, because a lot of people, like, graphic designers and illustrators, I know, listen to this show and then they email and say, Oh yeah, it's, like, still applicable to us because it's It's mainly about freelancing and business and that kind of thing rather than about just motion design.

Like we're not talking about, you know, what we're creating on After Effects or whatever. So, um, I just wondered from your point of view, whether you've seen a lot of people do it the other way round as well, or, you know, instead of going, um, really broad and then niching down or like niching down and then.

Using that and widening, oh, does that even make sense?

[00:21:25] Charli: No, it does make sense. And I think that's sort of a thing that you earn the right to do once you've already built momentum, you know?

[00:21:31] Hayley: Yeah.

[00:21:31] Charli: Uh, it's kind of like, like now I can post, I don't know, the other day I posted a very just chatty random update video about my summer and I was like, Had my cats in it and things.

It was not really providing design value, but it got a lot of views and a lot of comments and people enjoyed it because they're my audience, right? Um, so you can definitely open, open things up. But I think often people look at, I would say it's the exception rather than the rule though, to be able to have Fast growth and like build a reputation while still being super wide.

I think a niche can really help make things easier for you. And with, with your case, I mean, the opening up you're talking about doing isn't really that far removed from, you know, the initial thing. So it's kind of different compared to like, maybe if you were to start posting fashion videos, on the channel, things would be a little different, you know, and maybe that would be a broadening up that I wouldn't recommend.

[00:22:26] Hayley: Yeah, true. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I'm not going to start doing something crazy like that for sure. Um, no, totally. That makes loads of sense. I just find it really interesting. We're always talking about niching down on this podcast and everyone's always like, No, I don't want to do it. I'm so scared. I'm scared that if I do that, I'll lose like, cause it's mainly about niching down when it comes to clients and things like that, and being an expert in a certain area, but they're scared to like lose the clients that currently have.

So did you feel like that applied to you when you were. Maybe creating lots of different videos and then you were like, Oh no, but if I just do design stuff, maybe like I'll lose some of my audience or something like that.

[00:23:05] Charli: Absolutely I did. Yeah, that was why I put it off for so long, honestly. I was like, but I know that people are like coming for the DIY videos.

Um, that was the main one that I was like afraid to drop off, but I just didn't feel the passion for that anymore either. I was like, I don't want to be doing this long term. And so. It's like, okay, well, are you so afraid of losing out in this section of your audience that you want to keep doing something that you don't enjoy and that isn't your true passion just to keep the audience?

Or is it better to commit and like, you know, believe in yourself that if you go all in in the thing you are passionate about, so in the freelancing case, in the type of work that you really want to be doing and that you feel you're really the best at. If you commit to that. The audience and the clients will be replaced eventually, you know, because of the reputation you're building.

So it's sort of like, maybe there'll be a short term loss, but it'll help you get much higher gains in the long term.

[00:24:04] Hayley: Yeah, definitely. I agree with that. And I think, I mean, just as a side note, when everyone's starting out, Um, you know, in an industry or something like that, I think it is good to try different things.

Yeah. But, um, you know, especially like you must have this too with like designers, right? Like you can be a designer of a lot of different things. People start out pretty general, don't they? And like graphic design type things. And then, but now we probably, when you're looking to hire people, you want people who are very specific in a kind of.

Design type of area, right?

[00:24:36] Charli: Totally. Yeah, and I think that's really important to have that early exploratory phase And that's why I don't I say that I don't regret the way I started my channel You know in the fact that I did try all those things because what if I discovered that actually design videos weren't what I was Passionate about you know Could have been a way it went, could have went on a completely different trajectory.

But that's, that initial exploration helps you figure out what you're best at and what you enjoy so that you can feel more confident committing to it later on. You know, like if I think if I had entered the design industry and I'd started with web design and that was the only thing that I'd ever done, I might be wondering what else was out there, you know, being like, Oh, well, what if I focused on this instead?

And so it paints to have explored other things in the early stages. Yeah, definitely.

[00:25:18] Hayley: So now you've got a VA helping you with your side hustle, which I think is awesome. That's really cool. So, do you want to tell us a bit about like how you found her? How, maybe how you recommend people might work together if they could get a VA to help?

Um, with some tasks and delegates and stuff.

[00:25:36] Charli: So I actually put a call out on Twitter saying I want to hire a VA, like, I think I'm ready to outsource some things. There's a bunch of tasks to do with my, like, content schedule that I just, like, that drain me and that I dread doing. And it's making money now.

I feel like I can afford to, um, You know, invest in some help and Chloe, my VA actually reached out to me. So she was like a cold email and it was the best written cold email that I've ever seen. It was super like personable and I just got a good vibe from an email, which is weird to say, but we hopped on a call and she asked me really great questions about like what I was interested in outsourcing and, uh, you know, how, how she could help.

So I think if you're looking to hire a VA yourself, You definitely want someone who has VA experience and who knows how they can help you, essentially. Um, I think that's better than hiring someone where you would have to tell them what you needed and, I don't know, tell them how best to do their work. Um, because a VA is different from a personal assistant in that with a VA, you're hiring someone to take on specific tasks.

With a PA, they're more There to help you with whatever you need. Um, so that's a really important distinction to keep in mind as well. If you're looking to outsource is, um, knowing what it is you need. Do you need someone who can just be really flexible and jump on anything in the moment, or do you need someone for a specific list of things done usually around a specific timeframe and they can just get it done really efficiently.

[00:27:08] Hayley: Yeah, that makes sense. I always think it's best to hire people that they, they kind of really know their job and you don't have to do too much training and things like that because sometimes, um, you know, that can be hard. Like there are benefits of doing that, obviously, of course, as well. But especially if you're like new to hiring as well.

Um, I think, you know, you want someone who can take control of that conversation and be like, Hey, Okay. This is what I'm an expert at, and this is how I can help you, which I, I really like that. And also I appreciate you making the distinction for everyone between PA and VA. It's like virtual assistant and personal assistant sounds kind of similar, but

[00:27:50] Charli: One thing I'll say too is that my VA is, um, Chloe, she works with me on a contract basis.

So she's not a full time employee. So I've, I feel like I've taken on very little risk in outsourcing. And like, maybe down the line, if my business is at a point where I want to commit to a full time hire, that might be something I do. But for now, I basically have this team of contractors helping me with the content uploading, with editing, and things like that.

And that's working out really well, and I think is a really great way to dip your toes into hiring without having to actually become an employer, you know? Hehe.

[00:28:24] Hayley: Yeah, of course. Like, I definitely started doing that and now I have, like, a mixture of, like, an employee and then, like, some freelancers that help me on a regular basis and stuff like that.

So, I definitely think that's the way to go, is always go with freelancers first so you can be like, is this right for me? I don't, you know, it is scary. It is, it is scary and it is very hard. I'd say. Probably managing people, I reckon, is one of the hardest things to do in a business.

[00:28:52] Charli: Yeah, I mean, this, I've stepped into a management role at ConvertKit in, uh, October last year, so I've been in this role for about a year now.

And yeah, it's been a super interesting challenge, you know? Definitely a fun one, and I'm glad I took it on, but a challenge all the same to, to be managing people. It's very different from managing projects, you know? People, people are people. So just by the nature of that, there's a lot more unknowns and unexpected things that you have to be flexible and like learn to learn to manage through.

[00:29:23] Hayley: Yeah. Do you have any advice for anyone? Because I think like the problem we have a lot is everyone's like, okay, I want to do the work and it feels like sometimes the growth is like going into a more management position. Do you feel like, um, I don't know, like. You wanted to go in that direction. Do you feel like you've lost anything by not doing as much of the work anymore or do your side hustles kind of help you do that?

I don't know. I just thought there might be something in there that might be helpful for people listening if they're thinking about, Oh, maybe I want to be a manager, but I'm not sure, you know.

[00:29:58] Charli: Yeah, I definitely think that you can't consider management as the only path to growth. I really saw taking on a management role as really being able to have an impact on a certain group of people, right, and help them with their careers, which is what I do through my side hustles, through my YouTube channel.

But by managing a team, I can have this like one on one relationship with people to be helping them progress in the areas that they want to move into, and also having more of an impact on ConvertKit as a company, you know, in terms of strategy and, you know, executing on things. I think I'm in a really good spot at the moment because my role is a mix still of hands on design and production.

management and that's how I want it. Like I'm not ready to, you know, not be in Figma myself. Um, I still want to be taking on, on projects, but I also find a lot of joy in like art directing and in creative directing on other projects too, and where I can like, Set up, set the scene and watch another designer just like take it and run with it and bring their own ideas to the table is also really inspiring for me.

[00:31:00] Hayley: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I love collaborating. It's really nice when you've been working on your own for a while and then you're like, Oh no, I get to like work together with people again. It's really nice. Yes. So if someone was looking, um, to get a job at a tech company, do you have any advice on things that they could look out for or maybe things that they could try and do or anything like that?

[00:31:22] Charli: Ooh, I, I would say that whatever you do, tailor your application to the role, because Tech companies, especially remote companies, we get an extremely large number of applications for each role, especially any role that isn't like a, you know, like a VP kind of role. It's kind of less for that. But, um, yeah, senior roles, mid roles, junior roles, they all get a ton of applications.

And so if you can show in your application that you've read the job description, like by calling out similar language that they used or particular things about it that excited you. It'll honestly go a long way and instantly make you stand out from the ones that have just done quite a many jobs approach rather than like a focused application on several.

And I know there's, I don't know, a lot of talk in the industry about whether you should have to do that or not, but the reality is you do if you want to stand out. That's just like, that's the reality of it. So let's embrace it. And, um, recognize that and it can be a way for you to get noticed.

[00:32:18] Hayley: Yeah, I just saw you hired someone recently.

So I was like, Oh, I bet Charlie's got some like good, good advice around, around that kind of thing. And I think it's, you know, it's definitely like an exciting thing to do now, like work for a tech company remotely and all of that kind of stuff. So I thought it'd be good to help some people out if they're thinking about doing that.

So, um, this is great. Just before we go, do you want to tell the audience where they can find out more about you or, or different channels that you want them to go to and things like that?

[00:32:46] Charli: Yes, I guess you can get links to all of the things at charliemarie. com. That's my website. Um, and if you have any sort of interest in branded marketing design, then definitely check out insidemarketingdesign.

co. There's links to all the videos of the episodes and the audio feeds as well. But yeah, that's my current pet project that I'm very proud of.

[00:33:06] Hayley: Yeah, it's really good. It's really exciting too. So yeah, and obviously we'll put all the links in the show notes and everything as well, so you can all find them.

And yeah, thanks so much for coming on the show, Charlie. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Thanks again to Charlie for coming on the show. Remember, you can always check out all the links. It's in the show notes at motionhatch. com forward slash 99. We would love to hear from you. Did you enjoy this episode?

If you did, I would love for you to message us or tweet at us or share it in a story. We are at motionhatch on Twitter and Instagram and let us know what you thought of this episode. It's always great to get feedback from all of you and I really appreciate it. So thanks so much for listening. See ya.