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Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
I have Amanda, Dr.
Amanda Minervini here
who does many things.
But she runs, when she's not being a
professor at Colorado College, she runs
something called EAGLE out of Colorado,
which I'm gonna let her talk to us
about, because it's a very interesting
mix of, I'd say, the various types
of best practice for equine-assisted
emotional support and equine welfare.
And I've known Amanda, gosh, since I
first talked, was it 2022, at Warwick
Schiller's Journey On Summit in Texas,
and she was there and we chatted.
And I later went out and saw her work
in Colorado, and I've been sort of
following it for the last few years and
thinking, "Oh, this is gonna, this is
gonna develop into something interesting."
And then I sort of looked at it
this year and realized it had really
developed into something interesting.
Because there's all sorts of elements
in there like liberty work and
equine communication, but not in
the woo-woo way, and classical work
and working with vulnerable human
populations that just is all coming
together in a really interesting
way here in Colorado Springs, and I
think Amanda should tell us about it.
So Amanda, thanks for coming on the show.
Amanda Minervini: Hi, Rupert.
Thank you so much for having me.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it's-
Amanda Minervini: It's such a pleasure
to be exchanging this conversation
with you and to be here today.
Yes, EAGLE is Equine Guided Learning
And Healing Experience, which I started
putting together a few years ago now.
I started thinking about it during
the pandemic actually, given the sheer
mental health crisis that was, I mean,
getting even worse with the pandemic.
Not that before there wasn't.
And so I had known your work since 2009.
It was sent to me by a
friend, Jane Richardson.
And so I started thinking about the
healing power of horses and all these
ideas that, you know, horses have
a lot to teach us sapien sapiens.
And then, you know, slowly I also
continued my academic career.
I finished graduate school, got a
job, got another job where I stayed.
And once I was more stable I got a
horse, was the first thing I did.
So I started looking at different
approaches and Warwick Schiller's
consent-based attuned horse-machine
approach was one that gave me
really a lot of ideas and also
a lot of materials to work from.
And then basically through the guidance
offered by my off-the-track thoroughbred,
Jimmy we, Jimmy and I, actually really
put together this method and now
it's evolving to include more horses
and more different kinds of people.
Whereas at the beginning, I intended
it primarily for students here at the
college, but it seems like there is so
much need for activities of this kind
that, you know, it's open to everybody.
And then the other aspect that I saw that
you also talk about is the well-being
of the horse, a horse who's happy to
move that feels good in their bodies,
and horses that also there can be
something fun and rewarding for them as
well in the relationship with humans.
So I'm trying to show humans that
they don't have to be in charge
with horses, that it can be a shared
enterprise, enterprise, let's say.
And that horses actually are happy to
give their input and share their opinions
and ideas when they're allowed to.
Rupert Isaacson: I saw recently
a video that you sent me of you
with some clients in the woods the
pinewoods of the foothills of the
Rockies, and your ex-racehorse,
Jimmy, at liberty among them.
You got ⦠Everyone was walking
through the forest, and he was following
free, and playing and bringing that
play to these clients who were there.
And I thought, "What a breath of fresh
air," because I'm used to seeing horses
at liberty in the equine-assisted
thing when it's, say, equine-assisted
psychotherapy, where let's say
it's a very controlled situation.
Not controlled in that the horses have
halters on, but controlled in that
it's usually taking place, you know,
in an arena, and the horses usually are
not expressing a whole lot of energy.
And the, nor the people, and there
isn't really an element of play.
It's quite serious.
It's psychotherapy.
It's examination.
It's this, it's that.
And I'm a great believer
in horses playing.
You know, in our programs we have
this thing called crazy time, which
Amanda Minervini: we- Anarchy phase
⦠Rupert Isaacson: anarchy phase, et cetera,
where we know that horses, they're so
playful, you know, if we want them to be,
quote-unquote, good and our colleagues,
it's just very fair and a very practically
efficacious thing to let them
express their playful energy.
And then of course we realized, oh, we
could do this with clients, you know?
And we, so we do this with children
and we work out horsemanship ideas,
and we measure the speeds and
the distances that the horses go,
and we free jump them and da, da.
And for a long time it was like,
well, I don't see anyone else
really doing this kind of thing.
And then you sent me that thing,
and what I loved about it was
here's an ex- ex- racehorse, a
Thoroughbred Again, the sort of breed
that many people rather stigmatize
within the equine-assisted world.
And here he is at liberty- Oh, mm-hmm
jumping around and in the woods
with these people who are jumping
around with him, and everyone
is safe, and everyone is happy.
And I could just see the sheer joy in
the horses and the humans, and I was
thinking, "Yeah, if I was a student at
Colorado College where Amanda's teaching,
and I was having, you know, anxiety
issues or whatever, and I came out
for a day doing that, I would probably
go home feeling an awful lot better.
Yeah, I probably would."
And I was thinking, "Oh, we
should get her on the show."
So talk to me about that day, and talk
to me about what the evolution has
been to kind of bring it to that point,
'cause it's an easy thing for me to
describe, but you and I both know that
it's a very difficult thing to pull
that off with any degree of safety.
So talk to me about that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Amanda Minervini: Oh,
it's, ⦠Where do I start?
And please stop me if I go for too long.
But Jimmy has a bit of a complicated
history because, as you were
saying, as a Thoroughbred, he
was stigmatized and defined a, a,
quote, unquote, "dangerous horse."
He was a stallion on the track, and he was
gelded late, after he was nine years old.
And so, you know, being physically and
mentally fried from the track obviously he
had some behavioral issues that I thought
were perfectly reasonable for what I had
been able to uncover about his history.
And basically the whole thing started with
me just giving him a voice and some space
for expression, and really pretty quickly
he started trusting me and calmed down.
People at the barn where we are,
you know, I board my horses.
Unfortunately, I don't own a ranch.
Maybe one day.
They actually noticed how much he
changed in just the span of a few months.
In fact, they sort of gave me a
little bit of a timeline because
people there were worried that he
could hurt other people and horses.
He never did.
He only always hurted
himself, hurt himself.
But then he from being a stallion
separated from other horses, I was able
to socialize him, put him in a herd
where he learned just to be a horse with
other horses on a big pasture with, you
know, a good management, free choice
hay, and, you know, just good care.
So management was most of the care,
and then, you know, just we had these
interactions where I was just letting
him express himself and no judgment.
Like, you know, for instance,
he was a big, big rearer.
He would rear in hand.
At the time, I wasn't riding him when
I got him because I I just got surgery.
I was in a cast after a freak
accident, so I couldn't physically.
And so we did a lot of groundwork
also because I couldn't ride.
And, you know, just no judgment, just,
you know, "I see you, I understand,"
and, you know, "It's okay, you be you."
And I saw him kind of looking at
me like, "Whoa, you're different."
It was really, really interesting,
and he's so expressive.
And then from there, you know, we
started your classical dressage
and all the basic patterns that you
taught me once in a while he would-
which he would do very happily.
And scent work Raquel Dreissmans' study
on olfactory power for horses and the fact
that if you let them seek, you know, the
seeking motivation and use their olfactory
senses, they actually get more forward and
also more confident, and confidence was
something that Jimmy needed at the time.
He was very spooky, a
little unpredictable.
So there was one phase.
And then I also saw that he
was very good with people.
He's not an easy horse to ride, so riding
was out of the question for people.
But around people, he can be very
mindful and playful, expressive.
So I noticed that he had an inclination
for being around people, and so I
created a nonprofit basically around
him and his preferences in mind.
Then what you saw that day is a
result of a few years of him knowing
that he has a voice, he has an
expression, and that, you know, there
are guidelines of safety at the ranch
because it's not mine, and obviously
there are other people, other horses.
But so as long as he doesn't go, for
instance, you know, to too close to
horses on the pasture or, you know,
doesn't do anything kind of, you know,
mm, unsafe, he knows that he's free and he
understands the guidelines very well now.
So that day, actually, what was pretty
extraordinary was that another horse
who's not technically part of my nonprofit
decided to join us spontaneously.
She saw the group of people, she saw
the probably the, you know, mood.
And she's an older horse,
she's a paint horse.
She's in her late 20s and she just lost
her best friend a few days before, so
I knew that she was sad and mourning.
And I had never seen that horse canter.
She was always walking allow- around
with her best friend around the property,
free to do whatever they wanted.
You know, old wise ladies.
But that day she saw us and she
decided to cross all the ranch and
come play with us, and it was very
touching because Nobody asked her.
She really didn't have to.
She didn't have to run around, but she
felt like she could canter and play
and just she follow us the whole time.
So that was another extraordinary gift
that, you know, I see the horses actually
want to join and do what we're doing.
Like, like, "Oh, this thing seems fun."
Rupert Isaacson: You talk about,
let's talk about the issue of safety.
A lot of people who
Would hear this naturally will
think, "Yeah, but how on earth
could you make that safe?"
You've got horses leaping about.
You've got people, trees.
When horses leap about, they
throw their hind legs around.
Yet I know you and I know your
relationship with Jimmy, and I
know Jimmy a bit, and I could
see from the video it's grand.
However, if you were looking at it
from the outside and thinking, "Well,
I'd like to do something like that,
but I'm a bit nervous to do something
like that," what made you ⦠Y-
so you talked to us a little bit
about the progression with Jimmy.
So of course, perhaps a year ago you
wouldn't have made that decision to
have that kind of a day with him maybe.
What point in the development of the
training and the relationship with him
and so on did it become very clear to
you, "You know, yeah, this is, this is
something that we could do, and this
is something that we could do safely"?
I think that's a really interesting
horseman's question and not
something which a lot of people
in the equine-assisted world get
to, get to entertain or play with.
Amanda Minervini: So I never assume.
I work with the horse I have that
day, so I keep in mind their moods
and, you know, maybe different states.
So what you saw in the wood was
also the end of a progression.
It was a two and a half hour long session.
We started by observing the herd
from outside of the fence, and then
I brought Jimmy in the indoor arena
in a very protected environment.
And also, you know, these people, 99%
of the time, have no exposure to horses
so they're also a little afraid of the
big animal, and maybe they've never
seen a horse close like that in their
lives, es- which is extraordinary.
You know, I actually gave a questionnaire
before and after so that's how I know.
And so, I noticed that after
a while you know, we did some
liberty work in the arena.
Jimmy was happy to go.
He actually walked and trotted,
following student to liberty and doing
just little circles and kicking a ball.
Like, you know, little
thingies that we do for fun.
Working on a tarp.
And he was in a especially good mood.
He was focused.
And also, I checked with the students.
It was a small group, really
easy for me to manage by myself.
And they were not afraid of him.
They re- I saw their eyes, you
know, kind of becoming shiny.
And so then we went for a walk together on
a rope, on a lead line around the ranch.
Observed his mood again and what he wanted
to do, and then he headed to the woods.
And, you know, at that point I
realized that he was complete-
w- was gonna be completely safe.
To just let him loose and do whatever
he wanted to do, and also suggest,
you know, sometimes he just goes and
does little jumps because he feels
like it, and you know, he hears people
giggle and say, "Oh, how good you are,"
and he seems to really enjoy that.
So, a bit is observation.
I think a little bit is a gut
feeling that you know your horse,
and these were my students.
I was teaching my animal class in
summer, so I also knew them well enough
to think that it would have worked.
And and then, you know, the jolly
was the fact that the other,
the paint horse joined us and
actually that was a surprise, but
it worked very, very well as well.
Rupert Isaacson: It's a good ⦠I
mean, that's a very good explanation.
I think what's so often missed is that
if one wants to go outside the box and
frankly, if one isn't going outside
the box, then it's quite unlikely
that one is going to be able to serve
people that are outside the box.
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But if one's going
to go there with horses, it has
to be this layered progression of-
A sort of a brain development
of the horse, and an em- Mm-hmm
⦠emotional intelligence- Nervous
system ⦠development of the horse,
which I think- Yeah ⦠just isn't
talked about in- Mm-hmm ⦠training.
So what you- Mm-hmm ⦠just described
there, you know, I could hear it.
It's like, yes, he started here with
these behaviors from this background.
Then you expose him to, as you say,
the good management, the herd, the
stuff that horses need just for
their nervous systems to be horses.
Then you expose him to Warwick
Schiller's Attuned Horsemanship.
Then you expose him- Yes ⦠to the
classical in-hand stuff through us.
Then you expose him to, and I want to
go back to this and ask you questions-
Amanda Minervini: Trail rides
Rupert Isaacson: about
this olfactory work, yeah.
Amanda Minervini: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: And the trail- Scent
Amanda Minervini: work
⦠Rupert Isaacson: the scent work that we're
gonna get, return to this in a moment.
I'm making a note.
All of the trail riding,
you also, you know, te- you
went, you hunter trialed him.
You, I think, even took him hunting a bit.
And so,
Amanda Minervini: Hound exercise
⦠Rupert Isaacson: hound exercise, okay.
Yeah.
But nonetheless, that's, that's still-
Amanda Minervini: It was a
Rupert Isaacson: huge- ⦠there
are other creatures around, and
you gotta not kick the hounds, and-
Amanda Minervini: Yeah,
yeah, yeah ⦠great.
Kind of- Yeah.
It was a huge simulation,
and he did great.
Did the- But I also, again, I do slowly.
I add one thing at a time.
Rupert Isaacson: And so- And this
process over a couple of years or more.
Amanda Minervini: More.
And
Rupert Isaacson: then-
Amanda Minervini: More like a few
⦠Rupert Isaacson: right.
And then you talk about how on that
part- even on that particular day,
there was a long session with these
clients, and it started with observation.
Then it went to the arena.
Then it goes to the ramp, and
then it goes to liberty work.
Then it goes to the walk on the, the rope.
Then it goes to, and then at the
end, there's this fruit, which
is this emotionally mature moment
that you can only really pick if
you've gone through all those layers
over the years and over the day.
This is something which the reason I'm
drawing so much attention to it, and the
reason why that video made me sit up was
the layers of horsemanship that have to
go into it are something that is worth
dissecting from a practitioner's- Mm-hmm
point of view.
So for those people who are listening
and watching, what isn't talked
about with horse training much is
the emotional intelligence side of it
and the neuroplasticity side of it.
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: We talk a lot
about biomechanics, if it's riding
or sport training and stuff.
We talk a lot about subtleness.
We talk a lot about horsemanship
and making horses functional.
But what is often not known,
because horse- you know, most,
with the exception of Dr.
Steven Peters, most horsemen are not
neuroscientists, and perhaps Chantelle
Pratt at the University of Washington.
Both have been on this show.
There is this process called
neuroplasticity, and- Mm-hmm
when any mammal moves in these novel
ways that are also semi-pattern
based with lots of crossing of
the midline, their personalities
change just as human personalities
change when they do the same thing.
When humans do a lot of dance, yoga,
martial arts, and they get into this
sort of ability to marry discipline and
self-control with joy and spontaneous
expression, and for those two things
not to be at odds with each other, but
to become into harmony with each other.
Well, the same thing happens for
horses, and that knowing, having seen,
I think the last time I saw Jimmy was
three years ago or four years ago?
Amanda Minervini: No.
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe.
Amanda Minervini: Two, three.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
You were here at Korodo
College, invited to give a talk.
Rupert Isaacson: Right, but it
wasn't, it wasn't, let's say it's
between two and three years ago.
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: The horse that I saw in
the video had gone through that change.
I could see it.
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And I thought, "Oh,
that's good horsemanship on Amanda's part.
She's, she's brought him there.
She's, now she's recognized that this
emotional intelligence has kicked
in with him, and now she can really-
Do, you know, g- go o- to sort of
unlimited places with this horse.
When, you know, you and I both know that
the average equine establishment, whether
it's therapeutic-based or sport-based or
whatever, doesn't allow for this at all.
There are some- Mm-hmm ⦠who do, of
course, but the vast majority, it's
about staying within a very preexisting
structure that you do not deviate from.
And- Mm-hmm ⦠it's always said, "Well,
if you deviate from that, it's not safe."
And it is true that there is a risk
to deviating from it, but there's
a risk of staying within it because
horses get sour, and break down,
and shut down, or explode, or bite
their handler- Yeah ⦠or whatever.
And if you do go outside it, you
have to go through the exact kind
of dedicated obsessive sort of
horse voyage that you've done- Mm
with, with Jimmy.
But the fruit of it means that
you actually do really deliver
wellbeing, and I could see this
loud and clear in that video.
Amanda Minervini: Thank you.
Well, I do think that some horses do
better with a routine but Jimmy doesn't.
He's a very inventive horse and, you
know, he just gets things immediately,
and then he wants to do new things.
So he kept me really on my toes to always
find something that would engage his
brain and his body in a, in a way that
would feel good for him, considering
his injuries, his limitations, you know.
So what you said about the martial
arts, for instance, you know, I really
think that harmonious movement and
a sort of a willing- happiness and
willingness to learn go together,
like in your movement method and all
the research that's coming from it.
It worked for me because when I started
doing martial arts, I practiced kung
fu for 17 years at, pretty intensely.
That's when I became a better student
and I could go to graduate school.
Because the way I was in high school,
I couldn't really sit, you know.
If I didn't have my dog
with me I couldn't focus.
And you know, at the time I
never thought about those things.
I'm only thinking about it now.
So when I actually gave my body
a way to express itself and
you know, I felt really good.
Then also mentally I was focused and
ready to learn, you know, brain-derived
neurotrophic factor that you talk about.
And so for Jimmy this applies also very
much as a horse who was used to, you know,
exercising very heavily, very intensely.
But his mental health and
his nervous system was never
consid- considered before.
So, yeah, I do think that putting together
his energy with the maturity of a nervous
system development was the- golden
thing, you know, the sweet spot that
helped him become the horse he is today.
And you know, he's just mellow and happy,
and doesn't even need to work that much
anymore, even mentally or physically.
He's just very stable
Rupert Isaacson: You, thanks
for bringing up brain derived
neurotrophic factor, which is-
Amanda Minervini: Yes
⦠Rupert Isaacson: what neuroplasticity
actually is, for those
listeners who are not familiar.
This is the protein that your
brain produces, an amino acid, a
protein, when you move and problem
solve and do novel movement.
And this is, if you like, the raw material
that becomes the stem cell, that becomes
the neuron, the brain cell, that billions
of them, that is the neuroplasticity.
So if you don't do these types of
movement, you don't get this brain derived
neurotrophic factor amino acid protein
that then becomes all these things.
So that's why you gotta move
your ass, and horses do too.
But not just in a, in a, in a routine way.
And you're, you're right,
some horses do like routines.
I mean, my horses have routines, but
they- the routines are not set in stone.
No.
And the routines are endlessly
tweakable, and the routines areâ¦
You know, it- it's a, they're like us.
They love- Variety, but
they don't like surprises.
They love change, but they hate change.
Mm.
It's all about how it's presented.
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm,
how it's presented
⦠Rupert Isaacson: but the more of
this BDNF they have in their brain,
just like people, the greater their
comfort zone can expand and the more
they can actually deal with change.
So that when you are in some situation
with a horse, if you think about
ancestrally, historically, the sort
of situations we would end up with
it on horses, where the cannons are
firing at you or the Mongol hordes are
coming down on you, or you've got to
go catch that cow that's standing on
the edge of the cliff, or the things
that people have done w- on horses.
This can only happen with this
kind of BDNF where the horse and
the human really come together.
But to see it in the therapeutic
context like that was very beautiful.
So I'm taking off my hat.
There it is.
Well done.
Amanda Minervini: Thank you.
Can you- Much appreciated.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh,
it, it's so my pleasure.
I mean, you, you've, you've
really put in the work, Amanda.
It's impressive.
Can you talk to us about the scent work?
This is something which I think
is new for a lot of people,
and it's, it's new for me.
I think we're all aware that horses
obviously have this great olfactory life.
Amanda Minervini: Sense.
Yes.
So they have the nasal
and the vomeronasal.
So even as a forest organ,
they have an immense potential.
And it's dependent on how you judge it,
it can even be more developed than dogs.
So yes, there is this Dutch
lady, Raquel Draaisma, who
has, Raquel Draais- She comeâ¦
Rupert Isaacson: Draaisma.
Amanda Minervini: Ra- Is it-
Yeah, I was able to meet her.
Is that with a D, Draaisma, Draaisma?
Yes.
Yeah.
D-R-E-I-S-S-M-A.
D-R, D-R-A-A-I-S-M-A.
Okay.
So she, D-R-A-A-I-S- A-A-I-S-M-A,
Draaisma ⦠Draaisma.
Okay.
Raquel Draaisma.
The- Okay.
Raquel, yeah.
Talk, talk to us about her.
So she actually started from dog training
and she's done some research on, you
know, learning and, and behavior.
I met her, she was invited at last year's
edition of the International Society
for Equitation Science conference that
happened in Colorado, so I was able to go.
It's happening in Denmark next
week and I don't have funding
to go, but, It- So she was there
Rupert Isaacson: sorry, what, what,
what was the name of the conference?
Amanda Minervini: International
Society of Equitation Science,
of which I am an academic member.
Rupert Isaacson: International
Amanda Minervini: Society- and
they have this wonderful conference
every year and it's it's great.
It's all, you know, obviously based on
science, but then, you know, we were
at CSU, Colorado State University,
at the Temple Grandin Center with
Temple Grandin, and there were some
demos as well with horses therein.
And Rachel did a demo with a
beautiful pony who did amazingly well.
So, basically in, ⦠Sh- she has
a book that's called Scent Work
for Horses, which I recommend.
So I, I don't have my copy with me
right now, but I do own my copy.
Rupert Isaacson: Scent Work for-
Amanda Minervini: For Horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
And so, basically according to her
studies the olfactory stimulation
develops and simulates some areas
of the brain that then will also act
on seeking behavior, motivation and
mm- make horses a little bit more
confident and exploratory, you know?
They're not afraid of something,
they want to explore, even with,
with, with caution sometimes.
And this is something that my, actually
my other horse, Haka, my therapy
horse, is doing also very well.
So for instance, in the demo that I saw
and a little bit how it's explained in
the book, you can hide little treats
or pads that have been maybe treated
with some aromatherapy or essential
oils and different herbs in an arena.
Like, you know, she has these little
pockets where you can put things and
seal and hide them, and then, you
know, you teach a horse that they
can look for them, like a dog really,
and then get a reward, and they get
so happy to do this kind of work.
And now, you know, they're also
training horses for search and rescue.
Like, they're actually smelling,
they're not just carrying people
in you know, impervious locations.
So yeah, I thought it was a great
book, and then I was so happy to
meet her and see her work, and I I
try to tell people about her work.
It needs more attention.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm busy
researching it, that's why my
eyes are down here while you talk.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
You're good.
Rupert Isaacson: So I've got here j- j- j-
j- I'm, I'm reading the blurb on the book.
It's, it's, it's pretty fascinating.
But what I'm- Mm-hmm ⦠looking for
is what are the essential oils ⦠is
there, like, a go-to set of eight
essential oils that are, like-
Amanda Minervini: I think
lavender is used ⦠the
Rupert Isaacson: starter pack
for any horse or whatever?
Like, what did she show you?
Amanda Minervini: So I don't
remember what she used that day.
I think it was different kind of
treats, pieces of carrots, alfalfa.
I do use lavender because it's something
that, you know, Jimmy happens to like,
and I know that it's safe with horses.
Just, you know, maybe like
a micro drop on a, on a pad.
And yeah also like the lemongrass- So you
Rupert Isaacson: hide that in the arena?
You, you would, you would scent
something with lavender and then
hide it somewhere and have him- You
Amanda Minervini: can hi- if you only
have an arena, yes ⦠seek it out?
Or how do you- But, yeah,
you excavate a little.
You try to remember where you put things
so that in case the horse doesn't find
them, they don't stay there forever.
And then, you know, the
horses will dig them up.
But also you can, I also have, for
instance in liberty I have spread
alfalfa pellets on a rock or by a
post and, you know, so they know that
they have to look and they will find
a reward, but they have to smell.
They will smell.
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, what you're
talking about there, of course,
sounds an awful lot like enrichment.
You know, what people in, in zoos
would call en- enrichment and so on.
But it sounds like you're- Sure ⦠doing
something beyond that, and that's,
I guess, what I'm trying to dig for.
Amanda Minervini: Well, it's
because it's not just playful.
Mm-hmm.
It builds horses confi-
confidence and inquisitiveness,
so they know that they're safe.
And then if they explore
there is a positive reward.
So this also happens in
the situations of anxiety.
If they see something that is a
little worrisome, instead ofâ¦
You know, Jimmy used to run
backwards, which wasn't a
great behavior to deal with.
Now he will freeze for a little
bit and then think about it.
I don't push him.
Look at me.
If I say it's okay, he will go
and touch the thing with his nose.
Rupert Isaacson: Ifâ¦
Let me just dissect this a bit,
because people- Mm-hmm ⦠will be
saying, "Well, you know, what, what's
the practical one, two, three?"
So is the practical one, two, three
that you first test out certain,
apart from the treats that you
know that they like, but itâ¦
let's say you're working
with essential oils.
Do you test out certain essential oils,
or did Raquel say, "Look, there are
these ones that are sort of known for
most horses to have a good reaction to?"
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
She she has a set of
recommended things, smells.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you
remember any of them, Sam?
Amanda Minervini: I, I do remember
that probably lavender is one.
I don't remember if it's in, in the book
or in some other thing on the website,
but I think maybe you should talk to her.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
We should get her on the show.
I'm justâ¦
Okay,
Amanda Minervini: and- She
will be happy to, I'm sure
Rupert Isaacson: And then is
the second phase then, I'm just
typing recommended essential oils
and see what comes up from her.
Is it then, is the next stage that you
h- you let them smell, say, a cloth
with one of those scents on, and then
you hide that cloth under the sand
in a round pen where there's not too
much area for the horse to explore?
N- no.
Amanda Minervini: What I've done
and what I've seen her do is not,
the horses have not smelled before.
They don't need that.
You just hide things, and they
will go and research the things
that are interesting to them.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But for example, are we
talking a 100-acre field?
Are we talking a 20-meter round pen?
Are we talk- what, what,
what are we talking here?
Amanda Minervini: So, she was working
in the Temple Grandin Center's
arena, which is a fairly big arena.
And I've done it in bigger
spaces on a, on a field.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Amanda Minervini: So it works,
and it also depends on how much
the horse has been understanding.
So if you start in an arena,
you have a little bit more
control, but then you can extend.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Amanda Minervini: And I think
there is no limit to the distance.
You can even probably think of a
longer trail ride, one, two-hour
long, and if you have time to
disseminate things along the way.
It will work
Rupert Isaacson: But what, how
would you, how would you incorporate
that into your trail ride?
You would, you have, you would,
you have pre ⦠You would
have put things out first?
Amanda Minervini: I have not had
time to do that, but like in the
little woods where we s- you, you
saw us working, you can do that.
Mm-hmm Because it's you know,
it's not a huge amount of land.
And if you had time you could I
don't know, bike through a trail and
put the treats and smells and then
ride and see what your horses do.
And, you know, for sure let
always horses smell the text
messages from the other horses.
So manure that's on the way, I always
let my horses smell it and engage.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm yeah, I'm just
thinking this is, this is, this is
huge because let's say, for example
we, you're working a sensory trail.
I'm just thinking- Mm-hmm ⦠of, of, of
one of our projects which is Child Vision
in Ireland which is an- Mm-hmm ⦠urban
horseboy a movement method practice at St.
Joseph's School for the Blind
in the middle of Dublin.
And they have a-
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: sensory trail that
they take the horses on which is
largely tactile because a lot of the
kids are vision impaired or blind.
And I could totally see-
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, why not smell for
Rupert Isaacson: people and horses?
Why not smell for, for both the
people and the horses through that?
But I'm, what I'm looking for
is the structure of, or at
least a structure to begin with.
So I'm also familiar, for
example, with bloodhound hunting.
So-
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: with that, you
know, we'll sometimes we hunt a
person, sometimes we hunt a horse.
So let's say I'm the
quarry on the hunting day.
Mm-hmm.
I will ru- take a handkerchief,
rub my horse's legs down, and
then give that to the huntsman.
And then I'll go ride what's gonna be
the trail, and then at a certain point
he will take that out of his pocket, let
the hounds smell it, and let them go.
And I think we're all familiar
with that kind of process, but
at least theoretically, right?
But you're talking about something a
little bit different, and I- Mm-hmm,
Amanda Minervini: yeah ⦠think
Rupert Isaacson: I'd like to
try it, and I think other people
listening would like to try it.
So forgive me for being pedantic.
I'm just gonna try to
dissect it a little bit more.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: no, it's fine.
Let's, let's say I want to, I want
to bring this into a trail ride.
Let's say I discover that my horse
likes lavender, my horse likes
Amanda Minervini: oregano.
Lemongrass.
Rupert Isaacson: Lemongrass.
Oregano.
Yeah.
And so then I've discovered this because
the horse has kind of gone, "Hmm, hmm,"
you know, somehow- Mm-hmm ⦠when
I've given that to him to smell, and
has maybe rooted up some things in
a small area which have that smell.
So now I want to go to
do it with a trail ride.
Talk about the preparation of that.
Amanda Minervini: I was starting in arena.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
Amanda Minervini: Controlled environment.
And I started putting treats onâ¦
We had some barrels from the barrel
racers, so they were not hidden under.
They were visible but smellable
on top of a blue barrel.
And so the horses got the sense
there were things to find.
And then, you know, from visible
you go to invisible in a controlled
environment, and then progressively
you can extend the area.
You could teach the horse
a command or a request.
Sorry, not a command, but, like,
you know, go seek or search.
And the thing, yeah, that is different
from you know, the bloodhound is that
they are searching for one thing,
which I think is the same thing
they d- they do with horses who are
doing search and rescue of people.
They're looking for the one person,
whereas this one is very horizontal
and open, so which I think is
also part of the playfulness.
And then you can expand on a trail ride.
Rupert Isaacson: So-
Amanda Minervini: I think
⦠Rupert Isaacson: when you're, when you're,
the horse is in this arena doing this,
is it at liberty, or have you gotâ¦
are you riding- Yeah
on top of the horse?
Amanda Minervini: Liberty
you can ride if you want.
Yeah, we've done both, but, Yeah
⦠I've seen the demos at liberty.
Rupert Isaacson: I could see that being
quite fun to s- to sit on the horse
and- Yeah ⦠drop the rein, perhaps
after they've done it at liberty
to sort of introduce the idea that
this is what we're doing right now.
And then-
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: get up, and then
ex- experience where the horse
takes me from his sense of smell.
I could see-
Amanda Minervini: Yes, and
you know that I, yeah, I like
doing that with Jimmy a lot.
You know, I have a rein keeper.
I don't touch the rein.
He can go wherever he wants.
So he will find treats, and then in
the meantime he will go on poles, drop
poles just because they're there and he
wants to do them, and I don't ask him.
So, you know, these are, this is the
fun part of doing this kind of work with
a ridden horse, that then, you know,
there is this motivation for movements.
You're not even using
your calves in the least.
They offer, and, you know, obviously you
have to be comfortable, that there can be
some mm, mm, change in balance for you.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Minervini: But also, you know,
Jimmy knows that I'm okay, and he do- he
doesn't do anything too sudden or quickly
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I'm, I'm thinking in a therapeutic
environment, you know, you could even
do this if, if the horses and the
handlers knew each other very, very well
with certain clients where you could
perhaps have people walking alongside
but not side-walkers, but ready to, I
don't know, bring you down if- Catch
necessary or, or whatever.
Mm-hmm.
There is a sort of a ground crew,
but one would have to train oneself
to be really discreet to not
distract the horse from its search.
Mm-hmm.
But I could see that being
really fascinating as a
perspective-taking exercise too.
Like, if you're trying to establish
things like theory of mind, you know?
Mm-hmm.
That other people think
different things to you or-
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: that, that a horse
carrying you along while kind of looking
after your weight, but while actually
doing this job of trying to locate these
things, I think would serve as a very
good metaphor, while at the same time
delivering a lot of neuroplasticity
to the person sitting on top.
Mm-hmm ⦠also perhaps one
could do that on foot, right?
You could try to follow the horse
at a distance not trying to-
Mm-hmm ⦠predict where he goes.
Now, if you take it to the trail
ride, again, are you creating
scent stations that you see if
the horse wants to go between?
Or are you carrying scents in your pocket
to calm the horse should there be an
issue, or is it both, or what is it?
Amanda Minervini: What am
I carrying in my pockets?
Rupert Isaacson: Well, so
are you ⦠If you do it on a
trail ride- Mm-hmm ⦠have you
Amanda Minervini: created
Rupert Isaacson: scent stations?
So the scents are, I don't know,
on the ground by this tree, and
then perhaps 100 yards over there
there's another one by that tree
or, or by that boulder or something.
Or- But
Amanda Minervini: it's always different.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
T- talk to us how you'd structure that.
Amanda Minervini: It would be, like,
I know where things are, and the horse
and the other students do not know, so
they're involved in the search with the
horse, and they see that the horse can
smell things that they have no idea.
They, you know, because, you know,
humans cannot smell at that level.
So I think it's interesting also
to have students follow the horse,
because the horse knows a lot more
than you in that circumstance.
So on a trail ride, it was just
scatter things in a always different.
No, I don't create a reliable station.
Maybe at the beginning just to say, "Okay.
Just to be clear, this is,
we're gonna look for things.
You're gonna smell."
And then simply I try to count how
many and more or less remember where,
so that we don't leave stuff out.
But that's all.
And then it's pretty spontaneous
and it's not linear, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then,
Amanda Minervini: You may go for- forward,
you ca- maybe the horse decides, "Oh,
no, now I smell something here, but
that's more interesting, so I'm gonna go
further then and then come back here."
You know, they don't think like we do.
Right.
We would probably do a bit more
linear, but also that's interesting
to move like a horse would move Hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Okay, and then you said a few minutes
ago that if a horse was perhaps
nervous about something you could-
Yes ⦠use this olfactory thing
to help them build confidence, so-
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, for sure
Rupert Isaacson: Let me ask
you how that would play out.
So, for example, would that
look like the horse is afraid
of the, of the rubbish bins.
I'm riding up the road, there's
my neighbor's rubbish bin,
and the horse says, "There's,
you know, I'm afraid of Mr.
Rubbish Bin."
What I tend to do when it's that situation
is I have a pre choreography in my head.
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: So I've
picked that battle that day.
So I'm not surprised by it, and what
I will not do is sit up there and try
and kick and make the horse go past it.
I will automatically dismount, and I'll
start- Mm-hmm ⦠my hand work as if I
was in the arena, like, "Oh, okay, fine.
You don't wanna go forward
here, so let's have- Yeah
some shoulder in and the eh, and
let's have some counter shoulder in."
Sure.
Eh.
And we just find ourselves
moving closer to Mr.
Rubbish Bin, and then I'll beâ¦
And then he'll be like, "Oh."
And I'll be like, "Oh, yeah,
look, this is my friend Mr.
Rubbish Bin.
This is my friend Pony.
Pony, this is my friend Mr.
Rubbish Bin.
Tell you what, Mr.
Rubbish Bin actually quite likes
shoulders in, you know, I've found.
So let's do some shoulders in around the
rubbish bin," and da, da, da, da, da.
And but I will, of course,
also use treats in that.
Mm-hmm.
And it, I- Yeah ⦠I'm always astonished
when people say, "Don't use treats."
It's like but," like-
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, I'm Italian,
you know, we're all based on food
in my culture, so I don't get it.
Yeah, I don't get it.
I also treat my friends, and I think
my friends like me, that I give
them treats- Indeed, indeed ⦠or
bring snacks to students, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed, indeed.
So, We all like to be paid for
our work, you know what I mean?
So- ⦠without having to wait for the
invoice to be, you know, a year old.
So, and you know, David Lichman, who Iâ¦
There was aâ¦
We did a really great interview
with him over on Live Free
Ride Free not so long ago.
He uses treats a lot.
He's one of the best liberty trainers
out there, and he says, "Rupert,
just come bearing gifts," you know?
If, if you show up at somebody's
house to stay, come bearing gifts.
If you show up to your
horses, come bearing gifts.
If you show up to your
dog, come bearing gifts.
You show up for a date- Yes
⦠Amanda Minervini: just bring flowers.
I call them offerings
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
this is just basically-
But so I could see how
when I pull out the treat-
Amanda Minervini: Mm
Rupert Isaacson: I'm getting
into the olfactory seeking thing.
When I'm in- As
Amanda Minervini: well
⦠Rupert Isaacson: shoulders in-y things,
I'm in the brain change-y thing.
And so I'm trying to marry brain change-y
thing with seeking thing, and you know,
next week the horse is like, "Yeah
garbage bin, shmarbage bin, it's fine."
But you're talking about doing
something slightly different, I think.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, yeah
Rupert Isaacson: So can you explain-
Amanda Minervini: So basically,
with a garbage bin, at that point,
hopefully you have a horse who, by
having practiced spontaneously the
scent work, will have developed a
curiosity even through some fear.
So if the fear is too big, I don't
ask the horse anything at all,
and actually I turn them around.
Yes, I dismount, I turn them around.
They don't have to go close.
I just don't want to put-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
sure ⦠too much pressure.
And you, and you must understand
that in the situation I'm describing,
if I feel the horse is genuinely
really afraid, we're not doing it.
Amanda Minervini: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Minervini: There is, there
is no learning in that situation.
Yeah.
The horse has to be- Yeah ⦠regulated
enough- Yeah ⦠for learning, so that's
a- Mm-hmm ⦠also golden principle.
I never break this rule.
It doesn't matter, you
know, what's happening.
Sure.
Well, even if they- So because also I-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Amanda Minervini: promised my horses
I will never put them in a freak-out
situation, so they keep trusting me.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Amanda Minervini: So it also depends a
little bit on the horse, because they
have different characters, and maybe that
day they're feeling a little different,
so I try to gauge how they're feeling.
So if they're feeling, you know, the hue
stress, so the positive stress of this
thing I'm not sure about- Mm ⦠but they
check with you and they feel willing, then
I will take a step forward and name the
thing They know we're verbal creatures, so
actually they do rely on listening to us.
So when I say the thing, I have in- I
have this relationship with my horses,
"Okay, you know what it is and you're
going forward, so I can follow you."
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Minervini: And then when, whatever
time it takes, when, if they touch it with
their nose, I do give a treat, but again,
I want them in a state that it's like,
you know, just enough stimulation, but
not too much, and certainly not pure fear.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Minervini: So in that case,
the sand work would have given
you the foundations to have a
horse who's already pretty well
self-regulated and trusting you.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Minervini: And then at
some point- Yeah ⦠the horse
will don't even trust you.
So now I have a little bit of the
opposite problem with my Korab, because
he's actually way too forward to go- Mm
towards things he, that scare him, and
I have to kind of slow him down and say,
"Just take some time and think about it.
You don't have to go-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Amanda Minervini: so fast."
'Cause he's- Okay ⦠you know, he's
young and, you know, he wants to perform.
But I'm like, "No, take it easy."
Rupert Isaacson: This makes perfect sense.
And yes, it's a good- Thank
Amanda Minervini: you
Rupert Isaacson: it's good that
you make the distinction of-
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: if a horse is in-
Amanda Minervini:
Adjustments for personality
⦠Rupert Isaacson: total fear,
because I would, I was sort of
taking that as read, you know?
But it's good that you point it out,
because, yes, there are people, of
course, who will force the horse
to go towards the thing that isâ¦
You know, so if I'm doing the garbage
can thing, I'm certainly not doing that
with any horse that I think is genuinely-
Mm-hmm ⦠genuinely, genuinely afraid.
Right.
Then I've got- Yeah ⦠a whole
other bunch of strategies where it'll
be some time before we get there.
I'm just talking about a horse that's-
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: minorly spooky.
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Amanda Minervini: So
people who will do that-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
⦠Amanda Minervini: force a horse too
quick, too fast, will just destroy the
connection and the trust with their horse.
Exactly.
And you know, I just was in South Dakota
at a Lakota sun dance, and I saw, I was
there because I wanted to see how they
use the s- the horses, paint medicine
horses in the ceremony, and so you see
what these horses are able to do, which is
an, a- any horse person will understand,
it's an extreme feat, because it's an
extremely chao- chaotic situation with
more than 250 people dancing barefoot,
and people being pierced, and ch-
ropes hanging from the trees with the
eagle dancers connected to the tree.
And so these horses have to go in, and
there are drums being played incessantly.
So you know, it's not just the
noise, it's also the vibrations.
And these horses are- Scared, but they
understand they're pretty balanced.
They're like, "Okay, this is what we do.
It's a very short time.
We know these people," because it's always
the same people riding the same horses.
They travel through different
ceremonies where there are horses.
And they do it, you know?
They pull the rope and they pierce people
who chose to be pierced by a horse.
And what I've seen, I
could have never imagined.
Rupert Isaacson: Pierced by a horse?
Amanda Minervini: By.
So the horse is pulling the
rope that's piercing them.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So yeah, okay.
So let's, well, I think- People
are still probably thinking
in the scent thing, and we've-
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: I did want to go
to your recent experience at the
Sundance, the Lakota Sundance.
But remember, a lot of people
don't know what that is.
So just pause quickly-
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and then
we, we're gonna go there.
Let's just wrap up the scent
thing, because I, I'm, I think
this is really useful information
for any of us that are in this-
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: in this business.
So what you are talking about is in
that situation where you're trying to
build confidence towards scary object
or scary stuff, you're saying that
it's a bit more like the BDNF process,
the, the, the neuroplasticity process
that we were talking about earlier.
That by having the horse in a habitude
of this sort of seeking work, it just
generally builds a sort of confidence
that the, "I'm scared of a rubbish
bin," becomes less and less of a thing
because they, the horse's personality
and brain has kind of evolved away
from that type of eh, emotionally
juvenile response, let's say.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, that's my
interpretation of Rachel Dreissman's
theory by having, you know, read
the book, see her working and
discussed her, with her a little.
So but I do think that she would be the
perfect person for you to talk to about
more details, because I would beâ¦
Like, I haven't reread the book
in the last year because I just
started using it, and it works great,
and it makes perfect sense to me.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Amanda Minervini: I wouldn't
want to be, like, you know,
maybe misinterpreting things.
Also, yeah, I, I, I don't have the
copy with me, otherwise I would have,
you know, read quickly a few things.
But so her theory is that it
stimulates parts of the brain that
then now make horses more confident.
Yeah, it makes- And she
has, you know, ran some
Rupert Isaacson: studies
it makes perfect sense.
Be- it makes perfect sense, 'cause
I, I also use a lot of trick training
with my horses for exactly that,
exactly that- Mm-hmm ⦠thing.
So generally, any horse that, say,
is going to be introduced to Mr.
Rubbish Bin by me, has also gone through
quite a lot of targeting training.
Like, we get them to pick up- Yes
socks with a treat in them and
then hand you, hand you the sock,
'cause it's fun with the kids.
But we've noticed that when the
horses are in that seeking mode,
they're very, very far from any
kind of panic, and just like us.
So- We, we use that.
And then of course I wouldn't be above
taking a pair of socks and putting it
on one of those rubbish bins and da,
da, da, you know, maybe doing that-
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: in a controlled
environment, and then doing
it on the street, and then the
horse goes, "Ooh, well maybe
there's something there for me."
So all of that makes perfect sense to
me, and I could totally see how one
could bring that into therapeutic work
also with certain types of client.
Yeah.
With certain types of horse.
And while you were talking, I was
thinking, "How much of a thing is this?"
So I started looking up while you were
talking you know, the, the search and
rescue stuff that you alluded to, and it's
definitely a thing, and there's people
out there certifying horses and people.
And there's something
called the Novaki- Yeah
train- Novaki training method.
Mm-hmm.
So this all bears further
inquiry from us, I think.
Mm-hmm.
Amanda Minervini: And
Rupert Isaacson: so I'm grateful
that you brought it to my attention.
Thank you.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, me too.
Because I mean, for Jimmy,
being a massively spooky horse-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Amanda Minervini: it did great.
It really, really helped.
And, you know, I started playing
with those things just to play.
I wasn't, like, going with the agenda,
"Oh, I need you to be more confident,"
but it happened, and it's a little bit
like students doing the ego sessions.
I wasn't expecting them to repeat over and
over in the post-session questionnaires
that they felt more balanced, more
focused, more even willing to do homework.
I wasn't doing it for that reason,
but I'm happy that it's, you
know, very pleasant side effect.
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting.
You know our mutual friend, I think
you know our mutual friend Kez Kez
Sullivan, University of Bournemouth,
who does a lot of research.
She's now become Dr.
Kez Sullivan as of last week.
Who
Amanda Minervini: has- Congratulations
⦠Rupert Isaacson: done extensive
work into equine-assisted stuff.
And she ⦠Oh, where do-
Where's my brain going with this?
Why did I bring that up suddenly?
Oh, yes, because she has found in
all of the studies that they've done,
mostly through the University of
Bournemouth in the UK, that the side
effect that pretty much all of the
equine-assisted things have, and she,
she studied a wide variety of them.
Mm-hmm.
That it ⦠That, that people are
never going out specifically for this,
but it's massive, massive increase of
confidence and self-belief in the people
that engage in these equine activities.
And I think we know this
from ourselves, right?
That we've all been scared little
bunnies, and that horses made us braver.
But it's very
Amanda Minervini: interesting, you know.
I've seen, I've seen bunnies fight hard,
having had bunnies in my life, but yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, and just-
Just- ⦠'cause you're scared
doesn't mean you don't fight.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Sometimes you
fight because you're scared.
You-
Amanda Minervini: With those big feet.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
But it's, it's interesting that
that is, seems to be always a
really consistent side effect.
And if you- Yeah ⦠are in fact
deliberately building confidence in
horses through the therapeutic thing
that you're doing, you know, h- this
olfactory work is definitely building
confidence in the horse, w- how could
that not be transferred to the human?
To
Amanda Minervini: people.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
So I think that's a fascinating insight.
So Dr.
Minervini, we are
grateful for your insight.
Now, now I want to move to where
you've just come back from.
So I know that you have just been
attending ⦠You live in the
western States even though you're
from Ba- Bari in in beautiful-
Amanda Minervini: Southern Italy
⦠Rupert Isaacson: southern Italy where
I've been with you to run a retreat.
Mm-hmm.
And it was amazing.
Mm-hmm.
You are there in the western states
and you have just come back from
attending one of the most iconic
spiritual expressions that horse
cultures on the planet have, and that
horse culture is the Lakota who areâ¦
people know them also as the Sioux.
Which are a great confederation of tribes
in the Northern Plains area of the USA.
And when peopleâ¦
if you're not American, if you think
General Custer's Last Stand, well, the
last stand was against the Sioux, the
Lakota, and they were the ones who oft-
Amanda Minervini: Little Bighorn.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Battle of the Little Bighorn.
They and the Comanches down in Texas
and the Nez Perce in what is now
Yellowstone National Park, were sort
of the three big horse cultures of
Native America that managed to keep
the whites out for quite a long time.
And only when the whites really kind of
industrialized the warfare did it shift.
And theâ¦
I know because I've, I've worked
in Native America a fair degree.
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: I know that because of
that the reservations that the Lakota
sit on, particularly the Rosebud, where
I think you've just come back from-
Amanda Minervini: Yes
Rupert Isaacson: Are the most poor and
deprived areas of the United States.
Wow.
That poverty is on a level there
that one would normally associate
with very, very underserved areas
of India or that sort of thing.
And most Americans don't
see it because it's remote.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, you don't go there
⦠Rupert Isaacson: and there are native
there are Amer- you know,
Indian reservations which
are not like that at all.
Obviously, there's always poverty and so,
but there are some that are, you knowâ¦
For example, like, you know, spent a
lot of time on the Navajo reservation.
Very different story down there.
Very organized, very
progressive, and so on and so on.
And very culturally intact.
The Pueblos, you know, the,
in New Mexico, et cetera.
But be- partâ¦
You know, what happened to all of those
groups that stood up really, really,
really hard to the to the whites, well,
some of them barely exist anymore.
The Comanches, I used to-
Amanda Minervini: Vanished, yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: you will
not find a Comanche in Texas.
They don't exist in Texas anymore.
You when you ⦠the Nez Perce have
a, their foothold in Idaho, butâ¦
and they've got a casino now, but
they were pretty much almost erased.
And then the Lakota.
And the Lakota, the history of the
sort of deliberate creation of-
them as an underclass to basically
make sure that they just didn't do
it again, they didn't organize again
has- was really effectively done.
So it's one of the most
troubled areas of America.
So what ⦠But they do have this thing
called the s- Their warrior tradition,
their- their mounted tradition has never
died, and the Sun Dance- Yeah ⦠is
known by a lot of people, and they know
it because it's a ordeal that people
put themselves through physically
where they allow themselves- Mm-hmm
pierced and dragged or drag
themselves or drag things
Amanda Minervini: Or drag, Up a
hill ⦠many, many buffalo skulls.
I've seen up to 21, multiples of seven.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Minervini: And it's a four days
of 16 hour a day from sunrise to sunset
of dancing, singing, playing the drums,
depending on which role you're on.
No drinking, no food.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Amanda Minervini: Men and women.
Rupert Isaacson: So-
Amanda Minervini: So medically
impossible, but I can guarantee you
most of these people do not touch any
water or food for the whole time Right.
Rupert Isaacson: So I believe this-
Amanda Minervini: You know, they
do collapse and- ⦠because
Rupert Isaacson: they go into an
altered state of consciousness, yeah.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, and it's a group
thing that wouldn't be possible alone.
You know, there are all these
other- Indeed ⦠states there.
Indeed.
It's it just should not be possible.
Rupert Isaacson: So, so
here's the questions.
Why are, were you there, and what
Amanda Minervini: was your role?
I know, good question.
What
Rupert Isaacson: was I
Amanda Minervini: doing there?
What
Rupert Isaacson: were you, what was Dr.
Minervini from Bari
doing at the Sun Dance?
Amanda Minervini: E- excellent question.
There was a, a Sun Dancer
from Puglia as well.
I was never able to talk to him
because, you know, they cannot talk.
Puglia
Rupert Isaacson: being
the area of Italy where-
Amanda Minervini: My region ⦠Bari
Rupert Isaacson: is, yeah.
Amanda Minervini: So I know that
this guy was there, so I need to
investigate how in the world you end
up dancing, because I wasn't dancing.
I was just a supporter.
But so basically, so there are
a few things that coincided.
One is that at the moment I am
working, because academically I also
work on human-animal relationship
and, you know, representations.
So I a call for paper, by the way, dear
colleagues representations and uses
of equines in sacre- sacred ceremonies
and, you know, sacred circumstances.
So at one of the summits I met Misty
Dawn, who is the daughter of Chief Marvin
Swallow, who's the guy who breeds and
keeps the genealog- the genealogies and
rides the horses in these ceremonies
so completely by chance we started
talking and she mentioned the horses,
that her father was the person.
Like, you know, what are the odds?
But it happened, and
so we stayed in touch.
And then she said, "Hey, by the way, there
is a sun dance in Colorado, but I'm gonna
go and dance at the one in South Dakota."
And then I had other friends who
wanted to go, so we ended up meeting
in Colorado Springs, and I drove
everybody up, and we went together.
And I just, you know, basically by chance
I was invited and this is a very inclusive
Rupert Isaacson: sun dance.
It was- But getting invited to a sun dance
is not something that normally happens.
People are notâ¦
outsiders are not often invited to sun
Amanda Minervini: dances.
Exactly.
It's usually very strict because
in the 1800s in the effort from
the White colonizers to completely
crack all the indigenous cultures,
the sun dances were very forbidden
and there were serious consequences
if they were caught practicing.
So they became extremely secretive,
and they don't even tell you exactly
where they would happen until the
'70s when Leonard Crow Dog, Lakota
medicine man decided that in order
to, you know, react against the
government the different tribes had
to unite, and so be more inclusive.
So first of all, he created a
dance that was open to other
tribes, not ex- exclusively Lakota,
because it was so exclusive.
And then he created this place Crow
Dog's Paradise in Rosebud, South Dakota,
where the dance happens every year.
And White people are allowed.
There were White people dancing, and it
was his decision to make it inclusive
with you know, lots of resistance.
And I do understand if they want to do
dances that are not open at all, I think
it's completely their right and they
should be doing it, but there is value
in at least having one where people
who are interested can collaborate and
support and, you know, make donations.
And also you support
emotionally the dancers.
There are the cedar women who you
know, burn cedar to support emotionally
and spiritually the dancers.
The dancers are men and women.
Misty was dancing for four days and, you
know, it's, it's incredibly exhausting in
a marvelous way, even just being there.
And I didn't dance more than eight
hours a day, and I was like so done.
But, The people do it, and there are
so many people who are willing to
sacrifice so much including white people.
And so I think if more people
were able and willing to make some
sacrifices, even less than this
one, we would have a better world
Rupert Isaacson: What is the point of
the self-torture that goes with it?
Because there are so many
expressions of the shamanic-
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: in the world.
Of course one can understand a test
of endurance, particularly if you're a
Amanda Minervini: No,
but it's the offering.
Yeah.
But- So have you read Rene Girard,
The Sacred, Violence and The Sacred?
It's a great book that I studied
Rupert Isaacson: in
Amanda Minervini: my- I
Rupert Isaacson: haven't, but
I've, I'm asking this question
rhetorically because I haveâ¦
I know many Lakota and I-
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: do understand it.
However, I want to hear it from you.
What do you- Oh ⦠what is the point
of sticking stuff into your back and
your chest, and hanging back from a
tree, or dragging buffalo skulls, or
letting yourself be dragged by a horse?
Why?
Amanda Minervini: It's the sacrifice
with blood that's described in in
a lot of literature about religion.
So it's this controlled violence
that's an offering, which is a prayer.
It's an offering to the gods,
'cause you're praying for something.
So in one way it's a, a
level of exchange there.
But I also think there is an
aspect of endurance of pain that
has to do with some societies.
But, you know, like when I was at the
Sun Dance, I am culturally Catholic.
I was raised in Italy for 25 years.
My family is Catholic and they practice.
You know, they-
Rupert Isaacson: So you all used
to flagellate yourselves regularly
up the street on a Sunday.
Amanda Minervini: Basically.
Yes.
But then we have a big meal
and everything is okay.
'Cause you know, it's actually,
there are some structural
components that are very similar.
Yeah.
For instance, they go out and
cut a tree, a sacred tree, and
they dress it with cloths with
tobacco, then that's the prayer.
So we're dressing a tree that looks
like a Christmas tree for Catholics.
And they carry this tree, you
know, men do, and it looks
like they're carrying a cross.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Amanda Minervini: And then the kids have
gifts during the ceremony on the last day.
So just like Christmas trees for us.
And the sacrifice of Christ is
always the flesh and the blood.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Amanda Minervini: So it's minchah and
sebak as described in the Old Bible,
where one is a off- dry offering, like
you have something that doesn't in-
involve spilling blood, and the other
one is more powerful because it is blood.
They're typically in Christian ceremonies
is blood from animals, which, you
know, obviously still happens in
various ways, the lamb and so on.
But for them, you know, it's their own.
So, which is probably the strongest,
most powerful offering you can make.
Rupert Isaacson: And for the people
who don't understand the Sun Dance, the
Let's just-
Amanda Minervini: I don't know
that I do, but this is the
Rupert Isaacson: idea.
You understand it a little bit more
than they do 'cause you've been there.
So, when the person is dancing and
they're offering their blood and their
flesh and their pain, are they doing
that as an act of penitence, "I wish
to be redeemed from bad thing that I
did or thought," or are they saying,
"I offer my, the energy, the emotional
energy of my pain to the general good.
I suffer like Christab-
you know, Christ-like for
those who are not dancing"?
Or are they saying, It's really just who's
going to be the most kickass warrior,
or is it a little bit all of the above?
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
So I read in an article on the Sun
Dance, on the history of the Sun Dance,
that originally there was no penance.
It was a act of valor for the
community, for, you know, also
to show how strong you can be.
But then with the contamination of
Christian thought, which, you know,
obviously entered those worlds as
well, the penance became a component.
So I think that nowadays all of
the above, and people may have-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
Amanda Minervini: slightly different
motivations and also maybe a mix of many.
What I heard from some people, and
remember, you know, the dancers cannot
talk during the four days, so you can
talk before or after with some of them
for some of them it's for the community.
But also for a better world
in general for everybody.
So it's not personal.
I, I see a lot of collective.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Minervini: Which is beautiful,
and we do, do, we do really need a lot
more of collective things, especially
in the so- in the US society right now.
But I'm not- Yeah ⦠saying that
people should go and, you know,
necessarily spill blood, but, you
know, there are o- other ways.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Let's not go there.
And-
Amanda Minervini: Just
to be clear, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: When I've been at the
trance fires of the Bushmen- Mm-hmm
⦠the Khoisan in, down in Southern
Africa in the Kalahari, the healer will
often bleed- Mm-hmm ⦠when they're
spontaneously from the mouth, from the
nose, I've seen it from the eyes when they
take on the pain of somebody that they
It is not ⦠It doesn't happen
every single time, but it can happen.
But basically the, the healer suffers on
your behalf if you ⦠And for you, the
supplicant, if you like, the patient the,
the experience is, is, is very peaceful
because y- you have a sense of ⦠You
feel a great sense of calm come over you.
You're being sort of loved and taken care
of, and this thing's being taken- Mm-hmm
out of you, and you sort of see it pass
dramatically through this other person.
You've spent time in the Amazon and
explored the ayahuasca tradition, which
can be quite violent for the person
doing it, but that person is hopefully,
if it's done well, you know, guided
and taken care of and so forth by the
trained shaman who, you know, does it.
And then all these different
traditions have their different ways.
And when I was with the h- sort of
original horse shamans in Mongolia-
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: with my son looking
for healing- Mm ⦠it was a mixture.
It was a mixture of them suffering a
bit on your behalf, but also you had to
suffer too to let ⦠as a catharsis.
So I got whipped.
Mm-hmm ⦠and I remember seeing this
guy coming towards me with the horse
whip the, you know, the raw hide thing.
And he's in trance and so on, and I'm
like, "He's gonna whip me, isn't he?"
And my guide is like maybe a little bit.
It's important not cry out."
I'm like, "Oh, God.
All right.
Here we go."
And my God, did it hurt.
I got one, like, right across-
Amanda Minervini: Oh ⦠the
Rupert Isaacson: groin, and left my
body for a second and then came back.
But what was interesting just they
certainly didn't do that to, to Rowan.
It was, it was to me, the parent,
and my ⦠To, the catharsis
of whatever negative energy.
And- There was no sense at any point
that there was anything abusive going on
towards me or that i- I was absolutely
It, it was clear, clear that these people
were just doing what they could to help.
And what was very interesting too was
that immediately through and after that
ceremony, Rowan made his first friend
during that ceremony that he ever made,
that he ever reached out to another child.
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And I
could feel this catharsis.
Then when we went up to the
reindeer people, different again.
Much more like the bushmen, much
more the shaman taking it on for you.
So it's just interesting to me that we
have all of these different traditions,
but the ones that come out of the horse
tribes often seem to have some element
of endurance and test and suffering- Mm
for the person engaged in the
ceremony, and I wonder why that is.
You know, because horses do challenge us.
Or, you know, you've got to take
a lot of risk to get on a horse.
You've got to be prepared with the fact
that you might die every time you get on a
horse or every time you're around horses.
Uh-huh.
What, do ⦠I just want to
speculate a little bit here.
Yeah.
What, what do you think is going
on with this, that, that, that
it's so good for us as humans?
It does seem to bring
out, as you said, valor.
That's a good word.
But that we do, just as we ask the
horses to go past the rubbish bins or
accept us on their back or go into battle
or whatever, we have to accept that
we're terrified when we're up there.
Anyone who's taken enough
injuries on a horse-
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: knows what can happen.
Yet we, we do it.
We, we continue to do it a-
as a sort of act of love.
What are your th- th- ⦠Talk
to me about this, Dr.,
Dr.
Minari.
Amanda Minervini: Well, it's,
I am slightly outside of my
field of specialization, so
this is more speculation.
But I think there is a level of
expenditure and gift that we as
humans have been doing to keep
going as a community of people.
Because we realized pretty early on that
despite the fact that some of us may
be on the spectrum and interested in
different things, if we want to survive
as a species, we have to collaborate.
So the blood, the suffering is also an
exasperation of, you know, many acts
of self-sacrifice that we have to do
on a daily basis for our children, for
our partners, for our animals, at work.
And so it just ma- maybe, maybe a
paroxystic manifestation of something and
then, you know, everything else compared
in everyday life seems so easy and tame.
With horses specifically, I, I don't know.
I think that the horses have-
A really central role in the
Sundance, but it's also good
for them that it's very short.
They only go in and out for a few minutes.
So when you compare with what the
humans are going through, you know,
for the first time you want to
think, "Oh, well, the horses have
a better deal in this ceremony."
What do you think?
Rupert Isaacson: Me?
Well, we don't ask the horses to go
through the suffering unless we're-
Amanda Minervini: No, only to
go through the- Only when we're-
extreme chaos, which-
Rupert Isaacson: If we're ri-
if we're riding them badly.
But horses- One of the things I find so
interesting about horses is horses are
really okay with that kind of chaos, and
I think ⦠I've often asked myself why.
I mean, not, not the first time they
encounter it, but it really doesn't
take a horse long to accept, "Yeah,
I can take explosions going off.
Iâ¦"
And, you know, I used to ⦠I grew up
in the hunting field, where you're just
encountering funky stuff all the time.
You know, you might have to-
Mm ⦠ride through the McDonald's
parking lot and jump onto the freeway
and then jump out, and the horse is
like, "Yeah, yeah, I can do that."
And then I also, through, through
university, worked a lot on movies
with horses, and it wasn't- Mm-hmm
that difficult to get horses used
to battles, explosions, fire.
You know- Mm-hmm ⦠it, it was
just a habituation process, and then
they'd stand there calmly eating,
you know, while stuff was going
on, and they'd actually enjoy it.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: They'd, they'd,
they'd be like, "Ooh," when they came
off their water, watering trough.
Amanda Minervini: And now, now we go.
Rupert Isaacson: But they're, they're
⦠You know, so- Yeah ⦠and I've often
asked myself, "Well, you know, why
are horses kind of okay with this?"
And I suppose maybe they're that
interesting ⦠They, they are a prey
species, and they will run away from
danger, but they also will fight, and they
also will stand and investigate, and they
are curious and playful in a way that- Mm
like, say, deer are not.
Like, you know, even domesticated deer,
like reindeer, which I've been around
quite a lot of domesticated reindeer.
They're ⦠I mean, they're cool when
there's stuff going on, but they're not
gonna, like, actively go seek it out and
want to kind of- Mm ⦠mess with it.
You wouldn't go bull fighting
on the back of a deer, right?
No.
But a bull-fighting horse
wants to mess with that bull.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, and
we selected them, right?
Rupert Isaacson: They, they
have this sense of mischief, and
they can be quite aggressive.
And they're highly intelligent.
So there's something in those
chaotic situations that's fulfilling
for a horse, or those horse-human
situations could never have evolved.
Mm-hmm ⦠it just wouldn't have happened.
So-
Well, I think horses enjoy the challenge.
Provided things are made
gradually safe for them, they
can actually take lack of safety.
So if you think about war horses
in previous generations, they would
take injuries, and they wouldn't
have to be forced- Yeah ⦠to
go back into that situation.
They'd go back with enthusiasm.
You cannot force a horse to go against
fear because he's just stronger than you.
So,
they bring out valor perhaps
because they have valor.
And I think anyone who watches a
horse go through that process of
being afraid and getting over its
fear, given that the horse really
doesn't understand that that rubbish
bin might not contain a lion, or the-
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm
Rupert Isaacson: plastic bag, you
know, blowing across the street might
not be some sort of predator, and
truly they don't, and if, if they
didn't react to it that way, their
species wouldn't survive, right?
They need to keep that fear response.
So to, to watch them get over that through
some sort of neuroplasticity and innate-
I, I can't use these bad words on
YouTube because they'll demonetize me.
But- Mm ⦠m and effery, let's say.
The first word begins with mother,
and the second part of it, b- rhyme-
Amanda Minervini: Okay, I got it
⦠Rupert Isaacson: duck.
Amanda Minervini: With me.
Just a- And
Rupert Isaacson: then you
add a ry onto the end of it.
It's definitely there.
And so, you know, even, like, the
concept of chivalry in humans, l- it's
all to do with the mounted person.
Largely, I think comes
from emulating horses.
Mm-hmm.
Be as brave as your horse.
So- Yeah.
I th- th- that is perhaps why equine
therapy, one of the reasons why it's so
effective for people, because people, I
think, do learn courage, and they learn
how even when you have a pretty
rigid fear-based, amygdala-based,
cortisol-based- Yeah ⦠way
of interacting with things that
are new- Yeah ⦠yet you can.
And more than that, you have to.
Because if you can't do that,
you'll never, if you're a
horse, go and get new grazing.
And if you're a human, you just
cannot survive on planet Earth
unless you can cope with new stuff.
So I, I wonder w- i- if, if, if the,
the sort of endurance type, almost
pain type rituals that test courage,
they test to the limit of endurance
that you see in these shamanic
ceremonies of horse tribes- Mm-hmm
a- a- have all evolved a- across
the horse cultures of the world a
bit because, because of this maybe.
And does this- Well- ⦠pop
off in a small way, in an
indirect way in the therapy work?
Amanda Minervini: Probably.
You know, I was very honored
to spend two days with these
ceremony horses at the Sundance.
They show up two days out of four.
And I can confirm, I noticed, you
know, what you said, that there
is a great connection with the
humans who then take them out,
take care of them the whole year.
And they're very chill,
they eat, they're fine.
And then when they know that it's
time to go, they get heightened.
Like, they want to go, and they know that
the task is coming, and they feel- Yeah
probably proud- Yeah ⦠about it.
And, and they are also bred
and selected for this purpose.
So you know that not any horse
could do it, but they, medicine
paint horses, they will do it.
And then also, you know, horses
are fantastic herd animals.
We should always consider
that they are herd animals
like we are also herd animals.
Mm-hmm.
And so the fact that we're both
functioning in a herd, that we have to
give and show in order to be part of
the herd- Mm-hmm ⦠means that we will
go for expenditures and sacrifices- Mm
⦠because we want to stay in the herd.
And- Mm ⦠so I think they're so
collaborative also because of that.
And,
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
⦠Amanda Minervini: they are, they,
they are teaching us lessons in, you
know, being good members of a herd.
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little
bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
Mm.
Mm, mm.
Amanda Minervini: Or
tribe, as you would say.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I think, I think you've ⦠I
think you've, you, you've nailed it.
And this brings us to the whole
idea of the sacred, you know,
within the work that we do.
I think everyone who-
is involved in the equine-assisted
thing knows that it is a sacred thing.
There is no doubt that all of us, I think,
routinely experience frankly miraculous
seeming transformations in humans, in
horses, in interactions in nature when
you're out doing this kind of work.
Like, I've had encounters with nature
while, say, riding with autistic children-
Mm ⦠that I haven't had when I haven't.
I'm thinking about, like, times I've
surprised whole packs of coyotes lying
down in the grass in Texas who I've never
encountered that ever riding by myself.
I've been riding with autistic kids,
and quite a few times they've let
me ride right up on them before
they get up and, and go away.
Mm-hmm.
Something else is going on, you know?
Let alone the interactions that happen
with the horses, let alone the reactions
that happen with owls and birds.
You know, our great friend, our
mutual friend, Lianna Tank, you know,
who does that amazing work up in
Michigan- Yeah ⦠she does with it.
Amanda Minervini: She really does.
Rupert Isaacson: She's always getting
visited by these huge barred owls
that you- Ah ⦠almost never see in
daylight, and she's like, "There's
another one," and she's just sending me,
you know, pictures of them all the time.
Mm-hmm.
You know, it, the miraculous shows up,
and then, you know, horses do these
things that we normally don't see them
do unless they're in that situation.
I, you know, I can think of the, you
know, the extreme modifications of
behavior that they will spontaneously do.
I remember my horse Clue with this
child that had drowned- Mm-hmm ⦠and
who seemed to be vegetal, and Clue
saw this child in the wheelchair, left
the herd, came all the way across the
field to this child, sniffed him all
over, and then licked him all over.
Amanda Minervini: Wow.
Rupert Isaacson: Why?
We don't know, and the, and the
child- Mm ⦠did become responsive.
What was going on in Clue's brain?
We don't know.
But we know sure as hell that if
that kid hadn't been there, he
wouldn't have shown that behavior.
So we all see the sacred all the time,
and yet we don't pay much attention to it.
And I know that there's quite a lot
of, you know, Christian therapeutic
riding organizations in, in the USA.
Amanda Minervini: Wow.
Rupert Isaacson: In a more generally
sacred way, I wonder if we should
be paying more attention to this.
I know I certainly pray a lot when I'm
in the course of my sessions because
I'm looking for guidance, right?
I'm dealing with people that
are- Mm-hmm ⦠not verbal.
I- please guide me some, you know.
So I pray.
Yeah.
I pray for guidance.
But the more we look at these
things, the more I wonder if
we should be really much more
mu- much more deliberate about it.
You know, obviously I was when I went
on those journeys on horseback with
my son, you know, that are the books
The Horse Boy and The Long Ride Home.
But do we bring it into
our daily practice enough?
And if we don't, how might we?
What do you think?
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
Well, you made me think of me being
culturally Catholic and not being
somebody who prays, but I did write
a book about Saint Francis of Assisi,
the patron saint of Italy, who's also
recognized for his incredible connection
with animals and all things created.
Also, the first recognized text in
Italian literature, The Canticle of
Creatures where Saint Francis said that
we are connected to everything created
because everything is a brother or sister
because we come from the same creator.
So, that could be religious, but
it can also be a cultural way of
considering that without these
connections we really wouldn't be alive.
And it's not exactly that everything is
connected to everything else, but it's
true that we live in ecosystems that
are connected and chained to each other.
So one thing that I like to discuss
with my students is that, so without
all the microbiome that we carry
around all over our bodies and the gut
microbiome, we wouldn't even be alive.
So we're working, we're walking around
on this earth thinking we're individuals,
and in some cultures individuality
is stronger, but we aren't at all.
We are like walking
holobiomes that then connect
Rupert Isaacson: and- Yeah, we're
like walk, walking beehives.
Yeah.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
So you know, this is an illusion of
individuality, but there is no such thing.
And actually swarmy, swarmy beings are
a lot more aware that they are together
connected and, you know, they wo- they
are able to fly around harmoniously.
How do we- they even coordinate at
that level so that, you know, you have
a swarm of bees or a swarm of birds.
They're so intelligent, and really
we do need to look more at nature and
different creatures as an example of
becoming how to be better humans and
better humans in this world right now
Rupert Isaacson: I, I wonder for
me it's, it's more paradoxical or
more ambivalent in that I think
that we are individuals and we are
also collections of individuals.
I think both of those things
can exist simultaneously.
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: That, that we can be a
collection of bazillions of individual
gut bacteria perhaps each one's called
Bill and one's called Bob, and then
there's Dave, and then there's Tracy,
and then there's Amanda, and then
there's Rue, and they're all, we're
all living down there in Amanda's
gut.
And perhaps we all have a personality and
we meet down the pub in her duodenum, you
know, every Friday and play cards, butâ¦
And we don't l- and we play
football against the ones in
her large intestine, you know.
That could be true, and at the same
time I don't see how that wouldn't
also there couldn't be a parallel
truth that Amanda is still Amanda,
even if I'm an individual that lives
in Amanda's gut with other, you know.
And that, A- Amanda could be a, an
expression of all of us, you know?
I'm just-
Amanda Minervini: But in a, in a
porous way because, you know, in one
way we are very relational, so as
human beings we can appear to have
different personalities in different
circumstances with different people.
This is something that Italian culture
has very strongly also because one of the
Italian authors called Pirandello wrote
a novel called Uno Nessuno Centomila,
One Nobody 100,000, meaning that people
wear all these masks, but it's also
like the reality that it's projected
upon us by people and circumstances.
And also there are new studies
on the mind-brain axis.
It started because patients who
underwent an intestinal resection
changed their character completely.
And so basically when you say we are
what we eat, it's actually profoundly
medically true- Yeah ⦠and we're
only starting now to understand that.
So if I change my diet entirely or
if, yeah, my ma- gut microbiome should
have a, you know, revolution and, you
know, become suddenly very weak or very
different, I think I may also maybe my
moods or my personality may be affected.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, without a doubt.
So, yeah.
I mean, I, I think we see, we see
this in ourselves all the time.
Like for example when I go off
the beer, which I usually do
for- Mm ⦠a few months a year.
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: What I do is I
effectively reduce the inflammation
in my system, and I notice that
my thoughts are less inflamed.
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: I love beer.
And
Amanda Minervini: probably your
behavior and your reactions.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and it, and
it reflects in my personality and
I'm probably nicer to be around.
But-
The core of me
is still there even if I
change with the seasons.
Like, you know, if a tree is full of its
summer foliage, or it stands bare for the
winter, or it's budding, or it's autumnal,
those are radically different moods
But it's still the same tree.
And the tree is also
composed of many things.
But I guess now we're sort of s- straying
into that area of consciousness then.
So if all of those little ⦠If, if
Dave, and Gianni, and Amanda, and Kim,
and all the other gut bacteria that are
living inside the bigger Amanda, are
playing football against each other every
Saturday that's when you have diarrhea.
Are being affected, becoming better
Giannis, and better Dorises, and better
Daves when Amanda drinks less beer,
and become m- more mischievous when she
does or whatever, but they're still who
they are and you're still who you are,
rather like the tree going ⦠now but,
but I think what's interesting with
that, and this brings us down to say
what was going on with my horse Clue
when he came over to lick that kid- Mm.
Mm ⦠or what was going on with that kid
Back then when that happened,
that was about 16 years ago
Amanda Minervini: Mm.
Rupert Isaacson: My thought I
think would've been that child
was perhaps not so conscious.
Now I think completely differently, and
I think that that child is completely
conscious because consciousness
is ⦠I no longer believe that
consciousness is something that
is formulated by the human brain.
I, I now very strongly believe that
Amanda Minervini: That
there is a consciousness.
Rupert Isaacson: That there is
consciousness, and that we are all
expressions- Mm-hmm ⦠of consciousness.
And I actually find that-
Amanda Minervini: Well, which- ⦠thought
very- ⦠doesn't regard only humans,
but lots of other creatures too
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
Although Dave, and Gianni, and all
those little creatures down in your
gut biome, if they're conscious or-
Amanda Minervini: And, and Clu who
performed a medical procedure on that boy
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And that boy who somehow
reached out to Clu
To what degree of
consciousness, I don't know.
But the, there was an interaction.
It wasn't just one way.
Amanda Minervini: Was the Libra, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
You're familiar, I'm presuming, with
the work of Rupert Sheldrake, Dr.
Rupert Sheldrake?
Amanda Minervini: Somewhat, yes.
I read some parts.
Rupert Isaacson: So for those who
aren't familiar, he was an eminent
physicist who had his career destroyed
pretty much for coming up with
this idea of morphic re-resonance.
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: That there seems to
be a field in which, say for example,
and they did this with rats initially.
You could have a number of rats having
to get their way through a maze, and
each generation of rats got better.
So that was seemed to be genetic memory,
but then what surprised them was that rats
in labs in other countries at the same
time unrelated started getting better.
Mm-hmm.
And so we talk about things like
zeitgeists and ideas of the time, and
so it seems that there's a mor- that
there's a morphic resonance in the field
where things can change and shift if
enough people begin to have the same
ideas or enough animals begin to have the
same ideas or enough trees begin toâ¦
And it can be positive or negative.
It can be susceptibilities to things
or it can be skillsets and whatever.
And that does make sense to me.
And so when, when you'reâ¦
Let's assume that there's a,
a general conscious field.
So you're there with your two horses
and your minis, which we haven't
talked about, and you're there with
your students and your clients-
How do you feel that this
general consciousness
affects the work
Amanda Minervini: Wow, what a question.
So I am an academic, so I'm
trained to be very analytical.
Rupert Isaacson: So
Amanda Minervini: it's- But then-
⦠Rupert Isaacson: children.
Amanda Minervini: E- exactly, and
actually we're seeing more and more
today that the so-called Western science
is one mode of investigating the world.
It's not the only, and that more and
more scientists such as Monica Gagliano,
formidable Italian botanist biologist,
who wrote Thus Spoke the Plant, who
became an international bestseller.
Rupert Isaacson: Monica Gagliano.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, G-A-
Rupert Isaacson: Thus Spake the Plant.
Amanda Minervini: Actually Thus Spoke.
It's, Thus
Rupert Isaacson: Spoke the Plant.
I'm writing it
Amanda Minervini: down.
Yeah.
Thus Spoke- I know there is the
Nietzsche translation thing going on
there, but the, she didn't go for it.
So she's talking about plant
intelligence and she also did various
discoveries thanks to the fact that
she was working in Australia and she w-
learned from indigenous people there.
And you know, my yachka in the Amazon,
he's a trained pharmacist, but he's also
the yachka, what people call shaman.
Say what a
Rupert Isaacson: yachka is.
People don't know these terminologies.
Amanda Minervini: What people would call
a shaman, quote-unquote, but it's the
local definition that they have for their
healers who know plant medicine- Got it
and they know everything about the plants.
So everybody there can
have a PhD in botany.
But so what I'm saying is that we are
seeing Western science more and more
becoming better as they approach the
fact that indigenous knowledge has a
lot to teach Western science, and vice
versa, that it could be a very fruitful
contamination and collaboration.
So I would put myself in this
field of, you know, inquiry that's
academically trained, but I am open
to other ideas because I don't think
I have to judge everything and I don't
think I can understand everything,
and there is a benefit of the doubt.
So is there a collective consciousness?
I don't know, but it's possible,
and many people believe it, so who
am I to say that it's not true?
And when I'm working, for
sure I study, I work hard.
I don't, I didn't grow up being very
self-confident and not very nurtured,
so I have this amount of self-doubt
that's been devouring me for years,
but that may became my superpower
because I really learn and I learn from
everyone, and I ask questions all the
time to the point of being annoying.
But then, you know, when I'm doing
things, it's like everything congeals,
but there is also a gut feeling of the
moment, like when you're working with
animals, it's the only way that it can be.
You cannot sit down and run the data.
But I sort of run the data in my
mind and I ha- I know that I have
a connection with this horse that's
very strong, and he has it with me.
There have been moments And I have shocked
friends who have seen this, where he was
communicating with me from a distance
And people say all the time, "Oh,
I was just thinking about you.
I was about to call you."
So these things happen maybe
coincidentally or maybe there is, there
are ways in which people were making
phone calls before the phone was invented.
I don't know.
Rupert Sheldrake says it's possible.
The sense of being stared at
that he discusses in his book,
we still don't understand exactly
how it can be, but it happens.
Almost everybody has had an experience
where you feel like you're being stared.
You turn around and somebody
stare- staring at you.
So it cannot be a coincidence only.
And well, I don't know, maybe when people
didn't know what electricity was, they
thought it was some magic weird thing,
and now we, we have electric engineers.
Maybe one day we'll have
consciousness engineers.
Rupert Isaacson: Or perhaps we've
always had consciousness engine-
engineers, but unfortunately the
church put most of them to death in,
Amanda Minervini: Yes
Rupert Isaacson: culture over
about- Yes ⦠a thousand years.
So when we go out to places like
the Kalahari or the Amazon and we
observe people behaving in this way,
we have, we are either skeptical
or, or we consider it a miracle.
And they say, "Well, this
is kind of what we do."
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
Yes, and I agree that the church has
like, you know, tried to eradicate
Because Italy also, and Southern Italy
especially, had a huge, very deep
tradition of so-called magic and rituals.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Amanda Minervini: Look at Ernesto
de Martino, Lettere dei Morti
is one of the, you know, most
famous anthropological books.
And people still practice magic, but
it has to be very secret because the
church doesn't want that to happen.
So we just have to be rediscovering
things and understanding how people
were going about certain problems.
Rupert Isaacson: When w- The Horse
Boy movie was first out, I gave a, a
little private showing to my family.
And that included my uncle Peter-
Yes ⦠Isaacson, right, who-
Amanda Minervini: The doctor
⦠Rupert Isaacson: Dr.
Peter Isaacson, eminent,
what's Rupert your brain?
Amanda Minervini: Was he a
cardiologist, pneumologist?
Rupert Isaacson: No, no,
no, he, ⦠Oh, gosh.
When you open dead people up, come on.
Amanda Minervini: Autopsy,
so a forensic doctor?
Rupert Isaacson: Not forensic research.
Amanda Minervini: Oh legal medicine.
Rupert Isaacson: No, it's, it-
How come- ⦠re- re- research
into cancers and so forth.
But it, but it can be- Okay
also be forensic, and I can't believe
that my brain has just shut down.
And it's, it's ⦠Anyway
Amanda Minervini: so- We'll
be on for a few hours.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Anyway, he's one of them.
And, he isn't always a particularly
nice man, and if, if he feels that
you're full of it, he'll tell you.
Mm-hmm.
And with some enthusiasm.
As he should.
And,
Amanda Minervini: I love these people
⦠Rupert Isaacson: so at the end of it, all
the shamany stuff, I thought, "Well, he's
gonna take a big old poo all over me."
So I walked up to him, and I
opened an imaginary umbrella.
And I said, "Go on.
Surf's up.
Do your worst.
Sitting target.
Come on.
Have a go."
And he said, "Actually, Rupert,
today I'm not gonna take a poo."
And I said, "That's unlike you.
You know, why?
It's ⦠This is a God-given opportunity.
I mean, it's like shooting
fish in a barrel, you know?
How, how can you resist?"
And he said, "Well, two reasons."
Remember this is almost 20 years ago now,
so he said, "You know, where attitudes
around autism were very different."
And he said "The first thing is you're,
you, y- you're suggesting that there
could be certain gifts associated
with autism, and it's ⦠that
it's not some sort of disaster.
And that I find actually
quite interesting."
Pathologist.
Mm.
Thank you.
Amanda Minervini: Pathologist, okay.
Yeah.
Well, a smart man.
Rupert Isaacson: Head of pathology at co-
University College Hospital in London.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
And came up with a rather iconic
series of researches into things
that became certain treat- effective
treatments for cancers and so on.
And, He s- I, he said,
"Well, that's interesting."
He said, "But, but the other
thing, Rupert, is that you have
produced a very interesting piece
of work about the placebo effect."
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And I said-
Mm-hmm ⦠"Oh, what do you mean?"
And he said, "Well, Rupert, most people
misunderstand the placebo effect.
They, they, they will dismiss something
or relegate something and say, 'Oh,
that's just the placebo effect.'"
And then he says, "Rupert, that means
they fundamentally misunderstand
what the placebo effect is."
And I said, "Well-
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: what is it then?"
He said, "Well, Rupert, our entire
system of modern medicine rests upon
it, and it's completely irrational."
And I said, "Go on."
He said, "Well, Rupe, when you go to the
doctor and you get a prescription, you go
to the pharmacy and you get it fulfilled,
and you take the drug and hopefully you
feel better, and so therefore you feel
this is a completely rational process."
But he said, "Rupert, it's not.
What happens is that drug before you
ever bought it went through a series
of trials, and in those series of
trials there were people who got the
placebo, who had the thing that the
drug is supposed to make better."
And said, "Rupert, to begin with, most
people do not get better on the drug.
Most people get better on the placebo."
And he said, "Rupert, they don't
just think they get better on
the placebo and then go off and
die later 'cause they're stupid.
They actually get better,
and we don't know why.
And in almost every case, more people,
considerably more people, get better
on the placebo than on the drug.
And it's not until the drug overtakes
the placebo by a certain factor that it's
allowed- Hmm ⦠to go on the market.
And this often takes several trials."
And he said, "So the entire system that
you're, that you think of as so rational
rests on something very irrational."
And he said, "Is it possible that over
millennia indigenous people have learned
a way to activate the immune system
through, or activate the placebo effect-
Amanda Minervini: Right
Rupert Isaacson: um, through ritual?"
Amanda Minervini: It's
self-healing, right?
Indeed.
People are healing themselves
thinking that they can.
Rupert Isaacson: And he said, you
know, "It's entirely plausible."
He said, "You know, m- probably
one day science will catch up with
it as to what the mechanism is."
But he says, "Until it does, I myself
as, you know, eminent-" pathologists
of University College Hospital have
no pr- trouble with that as a concept.
And that was enlightening for me, because
I think- Mm ⦠until that point I'd
always made a separation in my mind
between, say, the indigenous wisdom and
the allopathic medicine or- Mm-hmm ⦠the
Western and the Eastern or the, you know,
indigenous and the Western or whatever.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, we shouldn't.
Yeah.
But also we should give credit to these
people because, you know, for instance,
I have been taking my students to the
Amazon forest as part of, you know,
my human animal relations class, zoo
anthropology class, and what this is
a Quichua family in the Ecuadorian
Amazon and, you know, what they teach
my students is that they have everything
they need because the plants there have
everything, and they know the plants.
But then pharmaceutical companies
go isolate one principle, so
one molecule from one plant-
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely
⦠Amanda Minervini: and never give
them credit whenev- when instead, you
know, they understand a lot better
how the whole synergy of different
molecules in the whole plant works.
So there has been a robbing from
the pharmaceutical companies of the
traditional knowledge of these people.
And then how long we've
had Western medicine?
150 years, 200 years.
For thousands of years we survived
with plant knowledge and indigenous
peoples practices and rituals.
So that's-
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.
Yeah, and I mean, if there was
nothing in it, all these people would
be dead 'cause they, they live a
long way from Western medicine and
they get sick and they get better.
Amanda Minervini: We,
Rupert Isaacson: we
Amanda Minervini: have survived as a
species, the only species of humans-
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, exactly ⦠of
Amanda Minervini: the five original ones.
So, you know, I do think of all the
people who had to live for me to
be born and be alive today, I think
about it often and it's a miracle
Rupert Isaacson: We haven't really
talked about your actual work outside
of the, the equine assisted thing.
So we've alluded to the fact that you
are a professor, we've alluded to the
fact that you're an academic and that
you're at Colorado College, et cetera.
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk, talk to us about
your actual academic work, and then
maybe we can bring it back to how it ties
in with your equine assisted practice.
What do you
Amanda Minervini: do?
Rupert Isaacson: What do
Amanda Minervini: you study?
Yeah, I, I work in the field
of zooanthropology, so where
it's human-animal relations,
and my specialization is
more on philosophical lenses.
So not really s- I don't do ⦠I
don't lead scientific research, but I
do read a lot of scientific research,
and I try to th- then translate it
in simpler terms to be something
shareable with larger audiences.
And my goal has always been
to communicate broadly.
So once I finish with my PhD, basically
w- put a PhD here to show that you
can use the lingo, the academic wor-
language, and then, you know, once
I did that, I'm like, "I'm done.
I want to talk to
everybody in simple ways."
And I am in an Italian program here,
which you know, this college has
been a treasure trove of creativity.
And so it's also the block plan, and so
where we basically shrink one semester
in three and a half weeks, and students
take one block, so one class at a time.
So there is full focus on this one
topic, and it's great for people who
really like to go down rabbit holes.
Like me.
So it's perfect for me- Like me
and students tend to be,
yes, you self-selected.
You know, we have a small student
body, about 2,000 students.
They're very self-selected, and
so there is amazing work that
you can do in the classroom.
But then my philosophy is experiential
learning and just going away with
students, you know, traveling Italy,
Ecuador, Galapagos, Amazon, as much
as I can because there is so much to
learn from, you know, being outside
of the classroom, being also immersed
in different cultures, especially
for American students right now.
Things were going great until this
year, then, you know, there is a bit
of a shrinking in academic funding,
and there, there is a lot of fear.
So, I don't know how things are
gonna look like in, you know, a
couple of years and, you know,
lots of colleagues are being cut.
Their jobs are being cut.
So there is a bit of maybe- Insecurity
insecurity, yes, some worry.
But, you know, I, I try my best.
I do what I can.
But I also work in the Italian field,
but the Italian philosophy is very strong
in the field of human-animal relations.
We have many philosophers that
are internationally known and
seminal in their research, Roberto
Marchesini, Rossi Bradotti.
And also one of the ideas is that Italian
culture wasn't influenced that much
by Descartes and the French philosophy
and the continental philosophy that
Americans look at, so French, German.
But we had our own field, our own
branches that stemmed from Saint Francis
of Assisi, who instead of talking of
dualism, mind, body, of separation
in a Descartes way, Cartesian way,
talked about unity and connections
and basically equality of creatures.
So even though Italy created
fascism, then, you know, at a
basic level culturally, it's
it's a culture that thinks a lot
about connections and equality-
Rupert Isaacson: When y- you talk about
zoo anthropology and it makes me think,
well, obviously when any of us are out
there doing our equine-assisted work,
we must be relatively good s- subjects
for study from zoo anthropologists.
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
Absolutely
⦠Rupert Isaacson: you must have your
academic eyes open when you're doing
your work and observing- Mm-hmm
other people doing the work.
Yes.
What insights, what insights do you get?
Amanda Minervini: Have to, would have to
think of specific examples, but I, my,
my insight usually is of great openness
because I can see the struggles and the
journey in many different methods and
the merits of many different approaches.
And then basically what I'm trying
to do, I'm a figure who connects
different fields and makes people talk.
Also, I'm a bridge.
That's why, for instance, I
curate collections of essays
that are multidisciplinary.
I work a lot with
veterinarians, for instance.
So I just don't take anything
lightly or for granted.
I try to go really deep at the roots
and also ask questions, and I see
that there are a lot of motivations
and reasons also for things that
maybe at first seem odd to me.
But then when you talk to people,
there are always really good
reasons and really good intentions.
Then maybe everybody can make efforts to
do better and, you know, I just try to
learn every day and do better every day.
But then, you know,
probably that's what I get.
Trying to be helpful, like
if people ask questions.
Like, you know, I had really great
conversations with the caregivers
of the horses in the ceremony.
I was invited to care for the
horses and spend time with them
So I don't know, I try my best.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I, I think, I
think ⦠Let me, let me offer something.
Mm-hmm.
Back to what prompted me to say, "Okay,
now I think I want you to come and
talk to us," was that video, right?
Okay.
Amanda Minervini: Well-
Rupert Isaacson: That
particular one, right?
Because in that I could see a synthesis
of a multiplicity of approaches that
I think very few people in the horse
world, certainly very few people
within the therapeutic end of the horse
world, many of whom are stuck rather
rigidly with certain ideologies and-
Amanda Minervini: Mm
Rupert Isaacson: regard other approaches
as anathema or heresy or whatever.
Mm-hmm.
And
Amanda Minervini: you- That's,
that's wrong, because horses don't
respond to one cookie cutter, right?
Rupert Isaacson: You got it.
So- And, and nor do people, right?
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
So Jimmy taught me, and other horses
taught me, so I can't be square,
I have to be porous and open.
Rupert Isaacson: So I could see, just
when you sent me that short video,
I could see Warrick's work in there.
Mm-hmm.
I could see my work in there.
Amanda Minervini: Yours,
Rupert Isaacson: yes.
I could see-
Amanda Minervini: Absolutely
⦠Rupert Isaacson: other things
in there that I would think
⦠That's why I wanted to ask.
I was like-
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: is ⦠There's
something else, there's some
other things going on in there.
I want to find out from
Amanda what she's been up to.
And then you sent the video- So Rachel's
this, here's the scent
work, and here's this.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, this
Amanda Minervini: all makes sense.
And the latest studies on equine
cognition, McLean and all the
other researchers connected.
You know, there is a lot of incredible
work going on right now, so I am
connected through the International
Society of Equitation Science.
So- So that may change things also from
year to year as we make more discoveries.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Let's just return to that in a couple of-
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: just
hold the thought there.
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: It's only the possibility
of pulling all those threads together
that could create a session like that one
which you showed me, which I went, "Damn-
Mm-hmm ⦠that's cutting edge shit."
And-
Amanda Minervini: Thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, t- h- I mean, no
question But it takes a particularly
discerning inquisi- inquiring,
but also, yeah, but discerning.
Being able to say, "Well,
I c- I will takeâ¦"
It's not, it's not what people often
say is, "I take what I think is good
and leave what I think is bad," because
I don't think that you think there's,
like, this good thing in Warwick's
work and this bad thing in Warwick's
work, or there's this good thing
in my work or this bad thing inâ¦
I don't think you think like that.
Mm-hmm.
I think, I think what it's
discerning, that's judgmental.
Discerning is where you say, "In
this moment, in this situation-
Amanda Minervini: I need this
⦠Rupert Isaacson: I need this bit of
Warwick and I need this bit of Rue
and I need this bit of, Yeah ⦠of,
of Rachel Driessens, and I need
this bit of some of the other people
you've been talking about, and I
need this bit of Francis of Assisi.
And I also need this bit of
myself and the general- Of
Amanda Minervini: me
⦠Rupert Isaacson: morphing
field, and I need this bit.
Yeah.
And I need a whole lot
of, of, of J- Jimmy.
And-
Amanda Minervini: Yes
⦠Rupert Isaacson: now you- It's
Amanda Minervini: 90% Jimmy
⦠Rupert Isaacson: the Jimmy pizza.
Which-
Amanda Minervini: Or salad Is, is
Rupert Isaacson: r- You prefer
salad ⦠right, exactly.
It's really rare to see that kind of
alchemy going on, because usually people
learn a method and then die on that hill.
Mm-hmm.
And that's why when we, for example,
train people in our methods, we always
say, "Don't just do our methods."
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Don't just learn that.
Amanda Minervini: Right.
You know?
That's the best thing
that you can tell people.
Rupert Isaacson: Y- 'cause you're
gonna need a whole bunch of spices up
there in your spice rack, you know?
Learn to use them all.
But it, as you know, it's not the norm.
And, and perhaps that zoo
anthropology lens that you look
through really helps you with that,
and I think that helps moveâ¦
It's another reason why I wanted you
on- Yeah ⦠with this conversation.
A- it helps move our field forward.
Mm-hmm.
Which means, for me personally,
more people like my son get helped.
Now, when I said hold that thought
a, a, a mi- a minute ago, so you went
back to the International Society of
Amanda Minervini: Equitation Science.
Society of Equitation Science.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And you said new things about
e- communication coming through
them that may change what we
do in the next couple years.
Extrapolate please.
Amanda Minervini: And Nina, Nina
Ekvall-Fry is also working on this.
So for instance- Great.
Really love Nina Ekvall-Fry, yeah
⦠there is a, yeah, wonderful academic
horse person, farrier, beautiful soul.
She's everything.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Amanda Minervini: For instance, she
has been able to produce and publish
comic book in Swedish and English on
equine cognition to basically it's
the problem of the riding school.
And the lack of horsemanship in
riding school, so how do you teach
children directly and maybe as a
side effect also their so-called
instructors about equine cognition?
So for instance, when we were talking
about the garbage bin, how do we explain
the science behind what I am doing to all
these people who are involved with horses?
And, you know, there is more and more the
young people, they see through the BS.
They don't want the dominance approach.
They don't want coercion.
They're very smart.
And even if they have not been around
horses, I've heard a lot of people,
young people come to me and say, "Oh,
I've seen this person doing that.
What do you think?
And what should I do?"
Also, you know, basically, I think I'm
doing what I was doing spontaneously
as a thir- 12-year-old around horses,
happy as a clam, just playing with
horses, having these horses that were
of mine, but they were connected to
me because I was doing the 12-year-old
girl thing, to the academic I am today.
And also, as an academic, I am a
little bit atypical academic because
in our fields we tend to specialize in
our two millimeters of knowledge and
not move because we're so afraid of
making mistakes, of being criticized.
And I'm like, "No, I am a bridge, bridge."
I put fields together, I make them
talk, and maybe I don't know everything
about each field for sure, but I
know enough that I can connect.
I'm taking risks also
professionally, but I think it's
the only way I want to do things.
And I think it's the best way
right now for, you know, we, we
need these connecting figures
as we need the ultra specialists
Rupert Isaacson: It's ⦠I had no idea
that Nina had produced this comic book.
Thanks for-
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, it was at
the, at the conference in Colorado
of the ISES So I'm just, I'm just,
International Society of Equitation
Rupert Isaacson: Science.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just looking it up.
Yeah, I think I need her back on
the show to talk about this more.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
She does a lot of marvelous things.
Rupert Isaacson: Although I
do see that that's been you.
Amanda Minervini: I, I wish
to be Nina when I grow up.
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe
she'd like to be you.
You know, in, in, by the way, for the,
for the re- for the readers, for the,
for the listeners and the watchers
who don't know who Nina Ekholm Fry
is, also in Colorado, not far from
from Amanda Mm At Denver University.
It's the- Mm-hmm ⦠I always get the
name wrong, but it's, it's effectively
the, the School of Human-Animal I-
Amanda Minervini:
Interactions ⦠Interaction.
And then she's the director
of the Equine Assisted-
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Amanda Minervini: And- ⦠something.
School of Equine Assisted, yeah.
She, she leads the
Rupert Isaacson: program- This is, I
think this was- ⦠and she teaches
the first such academic body in the
USA to start actually giving out
degrees and graduate degrees in this.
Now there are quite a few.
But Nina really was the pioneer, and
I remember meeting her when she was
at Prescott College in in Arizona
before she went across to Denver and
she was just beginning with this work.
And then- Prescott College,
yeah ⦠w- watching it really
flourish and become mainstream now
when everyone, you know, was raising
their eyebrows at her back then.
Do not raise your eyebrows-
Mm ⦠at Nina, my friends,
'cause you will be wrong.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: so yeah, it, it's
interesting how this whole field
has developed, opened up, and also
to the point now where it's like a
credible a career path for people.
You know?
Mm-hmm.
When, when I first began it,
you were paying to do it.
And- Mm-hmm ⦠now, you know- And
Amanda Minervini: much needed
⦠Rupert Isaacson: you can-
Amanda Minervini: In certain
countries, as you were saying, Ireland-
Ireland ⦠the state will also
provide ⦠Yeah, because it's, State,
the state ⦠it's like acupuncture.
At some point, we- Indeed ⦠realize
that it works, and oh, okay.
Well, so if it's work.
Rupert Isaacson: We're, we're in August
2026- Yeah ⦠as we record this.
Next week, August the 11th, there's a new
Horse Boy place opening in County Cork,
and the prime minister is turning the sod.
Amanda Minervini: Ah, Ireland.
You
Rupert Isaacson: know?
Oof.
When I was standing in
a, in an arena- What an
achievement ⦠well, not an arena.
When I was standing in a field in Texas
in 2004 wondering what the hell to do,
and Betsy had that amazing relation-
you know, connection with my son- Yeah
and things went from there,
I couldn't have imagined that
things would go to that degree.
But they honestly wouldn't have happened
like that without people like you and
Nina bringing the academic eye on it
because government only, and insurance
companies only, fund and support what
the academics say is worth supporting.
And so you all have
We have, we, I think all of us Who've
been in this role have, have a, have
a bit of a debt of gratitude to your,
people like you and people like Nina.
Because if you hadn't done those
studies and were not consistently
doing them and consistently bringing
that academic focus to what we do we'd
still be floundering around in the
mud, paying to do it, and not reaching
the numbers of people that we need to.
Amanda Minervini: I wish I had a
more active role in that progression.
I really didn't, but I, I do
understand that yeah, it's important
for academics to, you know,
embrace certain nuts and- More
Rupert Isaacson: if, as a-
⦠Amanda Minervini: things
and see what's, you know,
Rupert Isaacson: what's there ⦠the,
the very fact, the very fact that
you're going around it, having these
conversations at the conferences
and publishing around it is- Yeah
part of the solution.
And publishing.
For me, Amanda, it,
it's invaluable service.
Everybody must do their part.
And you're not just the wonk doing
it in Wonksville in, at Wonk College,
you are also running your own program.
You're running your own equine-assisted
program, so you have your own
laboratory in which to test
out what is the cutting edge.
Yeah.
And I would say that that thing
that I saw you do with Jimmy made
me ⦠And you gotta, you know,
I work in 40 countries, Amanda.
I go around, I see good stuff everywhere,
thank God, and then occasionally
I see something that goes, "Whoa."
Amanda Minervini: Oh.
Rupert Isaacson: And that was, "Whoa."
Amanda Minervini: Thank you.
I also have to thank
the owners of the ranch.
I don't know that they want to
be mentioned, but they have been
very gracious and patient to
let me run their program there.
They don't ask for any extra money other
than the boarding of the horses, and they
see these groups of students coming in
and out and they're just excellent people.
So I'm very grateful to them because,
you know, without their support, I don't
know that it would've been possible.
It's just a very beautiful place,
as you, you know, were lucky to see.
Rupert Isaacson: And a lot of those
students that you're bringing in who
are coming in thinking, "Well, I'm,
I'm coming in here as a service user.
I have anxiety.
I sign up for Dr.
Amanda's program.
I go out and have a lovely time with her
horses," but these, some of them will
go on to be the academics of tomorrow.
Some of them will go on- Mm ⦠to
be the decision-makers of tomorrow.
Some of them will end up- Yeah ⦠going
and working in insurance companies.
You know, it's really important-
Yeah ⦠that they get exposed to this.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
I that's what I am trying to do.
Yes, and they really see, start
seeing things in different ways.
And thanks to the nonprofit, but also
it's one of the goals of my animals
class, which is called Voice of the
Nonhuman, to just really show the
students that, you know, the human-animal
relation can happen on different
levels and in completely different
ways, and that also other cultures-
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
⦠Amanda Minervini: have been
doing it differently for a
long time, and we do have
We as Western people, American-based
people, have a lot to learn.
And
I have been receiving a lot of even
written feedback from my students
saying that, you know, these learnings,
these things that they're exposed to
in these classes are life-changing,
will stay with them forever.
They talk to their parents,
their friends about them.
So, you know, this kind of keeps me
going because there is a lot of effort
and, you know, organization to be
able to lead these classes and, you
know, travel abroad with students.
Yeah.
It's, so but it's very rewarding.
And so to hear them constantly,
almost every week, even after years,
you know, sending me a message or an
email and, you know, it's, it's great
Rupert Isaacson: One of my other
cherished memories with you is,
is taking a bunch of mini horses
onto the campus at your college.
Amanda Minervini: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: And just having them- I-
interact with and meet the public.
Yeah.
And bring out joy.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah, and cute.
Overload of cute.
Rupert Isaacson: So listen we've, we've
approached the two-hour mark here.
Mm-hmm.
I think people would probably quite
like to know how they could contact you.
I'm sure people want to know how
they could support your nonprofit.
I'm sure people would like to know-
Yeah ⦠how to engage with your work.
So could you just give us the
plugs so people know what to do?
Amanda Minervini: Yes.
So I'm an easy Google away.
If you Google my name, I come up.
There is my website.
There is my profile on the Colorado
College website, and there is also a
very easy-to-use donate button on my
website because, you know, donations
do really help because horses are
becoming more and more expensive.
So my website is amanda.minervini@weebly
or sorry, .weebly
something.
And so all the information, also
my emails and are, are there.
So very
Rupert Isaacson: easy.
And
Amanda Minervini: Minervini
Rupert Isaacson: is like
the goddess Minerva-
Amanda Minervini: Minerva
⦠Rupert Isaacson: just lots of them.
Amanda Minervini: Lots of little ones.
Lot- yes, lots of little Minervas.
Rupert Isaacson: Which, which I love.
Many little Minervas.
I love the fact that you're all
these little wisdom goddesses going
off in lots of different directions.
Amanda Minervini: All the little owls.
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
Little owls flying out from you.
So Amanda Miner- so the website again,
just do it slowly this time so for
the people who are grabbing a pen.
Amanda Minervini: Yes.
So let me look it up actually,
'cause I don't remember.
Rupert Isaacson: Fair enough.
Amanda Minervini: So
Amanda Minervini, one word.
So Amanda is spelled just like
the American Amanda, and then M
as in Milan, I, N as in Naples,
E, R, V as in Victor, I, N, I.
So amandaminervini.weebly
which is W-E-E-B-L-Y.com.
But again, it's probably
easier to put my first and last
name on your favorite search.
And
Rupert Isaacson: the
Amanda Minervini: name of the nonprofit?
It's EGLE.
E-G-L-H-E, Equine Guided
Learning and Healing Experience.
Rupert Isaacson: Very good.
Lads, listeners, watchers,
send her a few bucks.
Help her to continue this work.
It is cutting edge stuff.
Also, if you're passing through
Colorado, go check her out.
Go out and observe a session and-
Amanda Minervini: Join a session
⦠Rupert Isaacson: you'll have to, you'll
have to be, have your arm twisted to
go and spend a, an afternoon in the
beautiful foothills of the Rockies, Mm
with ponies.
And, and watch this, its synthesis
of, of all this different methodology
seen through this zooanthropic
lens, and sort of offered in a way
that I think many of us who've been
in the game for a long time can learn
from, if only also to learn to just
open ourselves to each other's methods.
There's a huge need for this.
If we want governments and insurance
companies and so forth to take
us seriously, we cannot squabble.
We cannot do the little things
that we know can happen.
It's time to go beyond that, and
the synthesis of what we all do
is the next generation, I think.
I think Amanda's really
doing it, so go check it out.
And for people who are, who are
younger, who are just starting in the
field, again, much to learn there.
So Amanda, thank you for coming on.
Thank
Amanda Minervini: you so much.
Rupert Isaacson: Always
a pleasure to hang out.
I guess we will do it again.
We will do this again.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah
⦠Rupert Isaacson: there's, there's
stuff we didn't get to cover.
I'd like to get more into
Saint Francis of Assisi.
I'd like to-
Amanda Minervini: Oh,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah ⦠I'd
like to delve more into nature
and the mind in general.
Amanda Minervini: Mm-hmm
⦠Rupert Isaacson: so
perhaps we can do that.
Amanda Minervini: Yes.
And you know, I've also for work
I've been reading a lot and there is
this wonderful book that I'm reading
now because it's the common read for
this year, so I'm also grateful that
my colleagues are going that way.
It's called Theory of Water-
Theory of Water ⦠Anishinaabe
Map- Water: Anishinaabe Maps to
the Times Ahead by Anishinaabe
author Leanne Betasamosake Simpson.
So you know, also academia in general
is opening up to this kind of, you
know, indigenous knowledge and what
we can learn, so I'd be happy to
discuss as much as I can or give
suggestion for, for other people.
But thank you so much and
I'll send you my aroha.
Aroha is the Maori word for love.
Rupert Isaacson: I send
it to you right back.
Amanda Minervini: Yeah.
Thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: All right, my friend.
Until the next time.
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