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The Build a Vibrant Culture Podcast explores the real-world strategies behind building strong work culture, improving organizational culture, and leading with clarity in today’s fast-changing business environment.
Hosted by leadership expert Nicole Greer, this podcast features conversations with business leaders, executives, and entrepreneurs who are shaping modern business culture through effective communication, leadership development, and intentional management practices.
Each episode delivers practical insights into leadership and business, including topics like team communication, project management, career growth, and creating workplaces where people perform at their best.
You’ll gain actionable tools, frameworks, and leadership skills you can apply immediately through coaching concepts, real-world examples, and professional development strategies, whether you’re a manager, executive, business owner, or emerging leader.
If you're looking for guidance on building a thriving organizational culture, improving communication, or advancing your leadership career, this podcast is designed for you.
Learn more about training, coaching, and courses at https://vibrantculture.com
Connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/build-a-vibrant-culture-nicole-greer/
For speaking inquiries: https://vibrantculture.com/speaker-kit-request/
Download our training catalog: https://vibrantculture.com/catalog-request/
Want to be a guest? Send your request to podcast@vibrantculture.com
[00:00:00] Nicole Greer: Welcome everybody to the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast. My name is Nicole Greer, and they call me The Vibrant Coach, and I have another amazing vibrant guest on my show today. Her name is Brenna Fitzsimmons. Let me tell you all about her.
[00:00:11] Nicole Greer: She is a dynamic compensation and human resources leader with 18 years of experience driving strategic people initiatives and organizational success. She brings deep expertise in the compensation area. Nine-plus years she's been figuring out what to pay people. I mean, it's a miracle she's even standing upright.
[00:00:30] Nicole Greer: This is great, okay? All right. She knows all about benefits, and of course she has this wonderful background of a full-spectrum HR person with the proven ability to align talent strategies to business goals. She holds the SPHR, the PHR, and the SHRM, S-H-R-M, hyphen SCP, whew, I'm running out of breath, and CCP certifications, which means she's taken all the tests, she's studied all the stuff.
[00:00:56] Nicole Greer: She could run SHRM if she wanted to. Along with a, a [00:01:00] master of science in human resources, an associate certified coach from the International Coaching Federation cred- credential, and she's known for a balanced people-centered and data-driven approach across employee relations, compensation design, labor relations, benefits administration, oh, and this one, FMLA.
[00:01:19] Nicole Greer: That's a thing- Yeah ... to understand. And ADA compliance, along with workforce planning and recruitment, and still is passionate about developing people, which is really what it's all about. Strengthening organizations and creating meaningful impact through thoughtful HR. I'm so glad you're here, Brenna.
[00:01:36] Nicole Greer: Thanks for being on the show.
[00:01:38] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yes. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here. So wow, what a warm welcome you gave me there. Wow. Thank you.
[00:01:44] Nicole Greer: Oh, of course. Yeah. We love our HR folks. We're trying to help the a- HR world get a handle on things. People are thinking, "Oh, you're in HR."
[00:01:52] Nicole Greer: We touch everybody, we touch everything. Yeah. So we, we, we need help, and so that's what we're trying to do at the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast. [00:02:00] So The Human Side of Compensation: Why Great Pay Systems Still Need Great Leaders, right? So first of all, you need a pay... Don't mishear that language, pay system and great leaders.
[00:02:11] Nicole Greer: So Brenna, when most people hear the word compensation, they picture spreadsheets, salary surveys, numbers, but after getting to know you, I realized your work is really about people. You wouldn't go out and get a coaching certificate if that wasn't true. So let's start here with the starter question.
[00:02:29] Nicole Greer: What does a day in the life of a compensation professional look like? Will you share about your world?
[00:02:35] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah, absolutely. I think that, a lot of, there is a lot of data analysis, so you do have to, you do have to like math at some point, right? That's right. There's that- involved, but really what it's about, which is any HR person, it's really about the people and being connected to the people, and it's about connecting the pay to people.
[00:02:55] Brenna Fitzsimmons: And I think a lot of times my, most of my work is really about communication, right? It's [00:03:00] about communicating what it means, what it is, explaining it coaching the managers on how to have those conversations with their associates, making them feel comfortable. And so it is all about pay systems and structure and a lot of data and numbers, but really it's truly about the people, and it's about connecting the people, and a lot of that, I think, is really about communication.
[00:03:22] Brenna Fitzsimmons: 'Cause I see that's where things are really successful or not, is being able to communicate those things to the associates, and then coaching the managers on how to have those conversations with the people. Yeah.
[00:03:33] Nicole Greer: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It, I mean, and that's it, right? We can't get this work done at this company, at this organization if we're not talking to each other.
[00:03:41] Nicole Greer: And for whatever reason, people are very scared of that compensation conversation, right? Yeah. So don't miss, everybody. She's saying you have to have some training for your managers.
[00:03:50] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Mm-hmm. I totally agree. I think a lot, I think you hit the nail on the head. I think it depends on the person, but some managers either don't feel comfortable with the numbers side, or they just [00:04:00] don't like the feeling of having a crucial conversation, so that's uncomfortable, or it can be awkward for people. Yeah.
[00:04:05] Nicole Greer: Yeah. That's right. That's right. Okay. So your career is a little unusual which, HR, it- everybody's got a different story.
[00:04:13] Nicole Greer: I, I kind of- Yeah ... fell into it. I was doing HR stuff, and it wasn't even called HR yet. We were called personnel. That's
[00:04:20] Nicole Greer: what we were called.
[00:04:20] Brenna Fitzsimmons: I re- I remember
[00:04:21] Brenna Fitzsimmons: that too.
[00:04:22] Nicole Greer: But I mean, it was like, "Nicole, take care of this person. They're new. Get them signed up," is what people used to say to me, and I'd be like, "Okay," but your career is unusual because you spent many years as an HR generalist, right?
[00:04:32] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah.
[00:04:32] Nicole Greer: And- Yeah ... before you did compensation. So how, how has that changed your journey, because you did kind of your, your- Yeah ... stint as a generalist?
[00:04:40] Brenna Fitzsimmons: I think it really helps me see the whole picture and how all the pieces connect together is because it's truly about, if you think about it, it's not a tiny little siloed box, right?
[00:04:50] Brenna Fitzsimmons: It, it merges into everything that we do. Our philosophy organizationally on benefits, or it can be how that affects recruitment and being able [00:05:00] to retain people for the life of the employment cycle. Yes. And I think it also says a lot about the organization and the culture of the organization on how their compensation philosophy is as an organization, 'cause it's gonna tell you what they value, right?
[00:05:16] Brenna Fitzsimmons: It's gonna tell you kind of who they are in a sense.
[00:05:19] Nicole Greer: That's right. That's right. And and being a generalist, it, it's just what it says.
[00:05:25] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah.
[00:05:25] Nicole Greer: This needs taking care of. Give it to Brenna. Yeah.
[00:05:28] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah. Yeah. It's honestly, it's so fun. I loved, I loved working in that space. It was so fun. I got to work at a lot of different types of organizations throughout my career, and so you really learn a lot about business and about how different businesses operate.
[00:05:44] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yes. And so I think for me is just there's always something to learn in each in each situation. And so yeah, I've always I've enjoyed getting to work in every space, I guess, in HR. But people that do HR, as a fellow HR person, is you do it because you [00:06:00] love the people, right? And I can tell you- That's
[00:06:01] Nicole Greer: right
[00:06:01] Nicole Greer: love, I love
[00:06:02] Brenna Fitzsimmons: the people.
[00:06:02] Nicole Greer: If you don't love people, don't do it.
[00:06:03] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah.
[00:06:03] Nicole Greer: Yeah. Don't do it.
[00:06:05] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah.
[00:06:07] Nicole Greer: Yeah. And she slipped a little something in there that I don't want us to just gloss over. She said, I touch every part of the employee life cycle, so- Yeah ... may- maybe some of you are like, "Wait, wait, what, what?"
[00:06:17] Nicole Greer: So ... everything from placing the job ad, what does it say w- about us as a company, what does it say about us- Yeah ... as an organization, to, the actual pick up the phone and call, meet this person, go through the recruiting process, give them an offer. There's compensation first.
[00:06:33] Nicole Greer: Yeah. And, and the, and when we place the job ad, what are we gonna pay this person?
[00:06:37] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Right. Right.
[00:06:38] Nicole Greer: Right? So compensation is woven into that employee life cycle, too. So the generalist touches all that, but really d- I see the compensation person, they're in there at promotions and raises and all that kind of stuff, yeah?
[00:06:49] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah, it's the annual process and really if you think about it, too, the retirement. So when someone is at the end, the beginning or the end, or in b- everything in [00:07:00] between, it's kind of making sure it's in alignment and how you align the strategy with budgets, and I think a lot of people are feeling that now too, just, with the state of the world and where it is right now as everybody's, I think, feeling that somewhat too.
[00:07:14] Nicole Greer: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. All right. You s- you said that Compensation, it, it can be kind of like an emotional topic, yes? Mm-hmm.
[00:07:23] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah. Right?
[00:07:23] Nicole Greer: Yeah. Right, so people are scared of it. There's an emotion. Yeah. Or people are hopeful they'll get a raise, right? Yeah. There's all sorts of fe- feels that go with the emotion, right?
[00:07:32] Nicole Greer: Oh, yeah. So you said compensation is an emotional topic when we talked before. Yeah. What do people underestimate just how emotional compensation really is?
[00:07:41] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah. I think that where I see it is where people don't realize is it's almost like a job title, where I see this happens, too, and that's in compensation, is they assign their value as a person or who they are to this, like, how much I make, how much I got a raise for, what my job title is.
[00:07:58] Brenna Fitzsimmons: And so it becomes, in a [00:08:00] sense, it can be- become part of their identity. And so if something is misaligned, or it's not what the person was expecting, or they don't understand why, things are evolved or why they are, it can feel very personal, right? It can feel like a, something that is ... It does affect them personally as far as from a financial, but I think it's more than that.
[00:08:22] Brenna Fitzsimmons: It maybe affects them personally who they feel like they are as a person.
[00:08:26] Nicole Greer: Yeah, yeah. Well, there's this thing that we like in this world, and it's like- Yeah ... status.
[00:08:31] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Right.
[00:08:32] Nicole Greer: Right?
[00:08:32] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Exactly.
[00:08:33] Nicole Greer: Right. So and, and, and really, if you went to school in America, 'cause that's where I went to school.
[00:08:37] Nicole Greer: I was always encouraged to be on the honor roll and to get an A. Right. You know what I mean? That's
[00:08:42] Brenna Fitzsimmons: right.
[00:08:43] Nicole Greer: So we're all achievement driven in terms of-
[00:08:46] Brenna Fitzsimmons: I
[00:08:46] Brenna Fitzsimmons: totally agree ...
[00:08:46] Nicole Greer: or, or we're brainwashed maybe. But, I think- Yeah ... it's good to be an achiever, but-
[00:08:51] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah
[00:08:51] Nicole Greer: But then along with it, you should be rewarded, so the trophy is the salary, right?
[00:08:55] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Right. It's- Exactly.
[00:08:56] Nicole Greer: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:08:57] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah. I totally agree with that. Yeah. And [00:09:00] so I think yeah, the emotional part of it is, yeah, 'cause it's personal, right? It's personal to the person. It's personal to who they are, how they live,
[00:09:08] Nicole Greer: yeah, absolutely. Okay. All right. So what is the biggest misconception that leaders have about compensation? Because don't miss this everybody, Brenna, the, the leaders are talking about, "This is how we're gonna run our department." Yeah. "This is how we're gonna run our deal." And then they're like, "Get Brenna in here.
[00:09:26] Nicole Greer: What should we pay this person? What makes sense?" Well- 'Cause it's really Let's Make a Deal a little bit. But like- Yeah ... what, what are the... When you talk to leaders, what is like the thing that they don't get or they don't understand?
[00:09:37] Brenna Fitzsimmons: I, I think they... So I'm not saying that paying compensation isn't important, 'cause I know how important it is.
[00:09:42] Brenna Fitzsimmons: However, I think that we underestimate how many other factors that are really truly a motivator for people that are not related to pay or compensation. One of my favorite stats is that the biggest predictor of someone staying in an organization is [00:10:00] how how good of a manager that they have. Yes.
[00:10:03] Brenna Fitzsimmons: And I think that says a lot. It's not about pay, it's about, it's about all the, it's about the whole package, right? It's do I feel valued? Do I see progression that's available for me? Do I see that the company's making ethical decisions, and that it aligns with my values as a person? And so I think that sometimes we overestimate just...
[00:10:26] Brenna Fitzsimmons: I'm not saying that it isn't very important, but it's not the only thing that's important. 'Cause I think sometimes managers, they'll go see someone and they may, the person is like, "I'm not happy," but they don't dig into why the person may feel that way, and they're like, "Let's just, let's throw money at it," or, "Let's..."
[00:10:43] Brenna Fitzsimmons: That's maybe a what, a target, but I don't think it's the only target, right? I don't think it's the only thing that may be going on.
[00:10:52] Nicole Greer: Yeah. I, I totally agree. Yeah. In fact, I ha- I, I, in my business, Brenna, I do recruiting. Okay. Right? So a [00:11:00] lot of my, a lot of my clients, they're like, "Nicole, you know us.
[00:11:03] Nicole Greer: We have this position. We need somebody you know will fit," 'cause I know their culture. And a lot of times I'll have people who are making big money.
[00:11:13] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah.
[00:11:13] Nicole Greer: But like they don't wanna work for this kinda corporation anymore. Right, they wanna work for something smaller. Mm-hmm. They wanna go home at 5:00.
[00:11:22] Nicole Greer: Yeah. They want, they wanna have a shorter commute. They've already... Sometimes people have already made a good m- good amount of money. Yeah. They've been wise, and now that, like they're mid-career and they're like- I still wanna work. I don't wanna
[00:11:34] Brenna Fitzsimmons: be anymore.
[00:11:35] Nicole Greer: Yeah. But I don't wanna be a crazy person anymore, yeah. Yeah. It's really important. Yeah, so I, I think you're 100% right. And, and, and what you're also talking about, I think, is like some companies have such a great reputation. They do. It's like, "Oh, if I could get on with Bank of America, if I could get on with Google- ... if I could get on with whoever, that would change everything."
[00:11:55] Nicole Greer: Yeah. "And I'll, I'll do anything to be- ... at that place."
[00:11:58] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah. And I think [00:12:00] some of the companies, if you think about it too, is they have, may have extensive family programs, or they may have very flexible remote work. And so it's a, it's the whole picture, right? And it may be about the values, exactly like what you said there, is I think we as a society, I think I've seen a big shift in that, is there's a real shift in does this align with my values as a person?
[00:12:24] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Is this where I wanna be? Is this where- Mm-hmm ... I feel I can add the most value?
[00:12:28] Nicole Greer: Yeah, yeah. So I'm working with this company right now, and we- we're revising their core values. And like a lot- Oh,
[00:12:35] Brenna Fitzsimmons: okay ...
[00:12:35] Nicole Greer: and like a lot-
[00:12:36] Brenna Fitzsimmons: That sounds
[00:12:36] Nicole Greer: fun. Oh, it is. It's the funnest thing to sit around- Yeah ... and chat this stuff up.
[00:12:39] Nicole Greer: But their core values were like a lot of companies, like integrity, honesty, which- those aren't values, those are traits- ... that we should hire for. We should hire people of integrity who are honest. That's what we should do. So we looked through, like, all the the, the core values and I'm like, well, I pointed at the president who's a female, and she's awesome, and [00:13:00] I I asked the other people, I said, "What comes out of her mouth all the time?
[00:13:03] Nicole Greer: What's the thing she says all the time?" And they're like, she's they're like "Get the work done." That's what she says, right? And so it's oh, well maybe that's the core value. You know what I mean? Y- Yeah ... if, if the work is done, you're done. But if the work isn't done, keep working, you know this whole thing about what hours do I work, how many days, do I work remote? It's I don't care, just get the work done. Yeah.
[00:13:27] Brenna Fitzsimmons: That's refreshing to hear. They have a different... 'cause some people, I call it, maybe this is the wrong way to describe it, but I, it's like the butts in seats mentality, and that's not necessarily the, the, the only way and the predictor of success or if the work's getting done, right?
[00:13:42] Nicole Greer: That's right. That's right, yeah. And, The, another one was no drugs and no dumb stuff. Yeah, it's that's our core value. No drugs and no dumb stuff.
[00:13:52] Brenna Fitzsimmons: That's too funny.
[00:13:52] Nicole Greer: Yeah, like-
[00:13:53] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Little t- little tongue in cheek. That's really, that's funny.
[00:13:56] Nicole Greer: But that's the stuff that comes out of our mouths, and it's really [00:14:00] authentic, so why would we pick some fancy words when we're just like, "This is what we believe. No drugs and no dumb stuff," and and then we have a list. "Here's the dumb stuff you cannot do," that's funny. That kind of thing. So anyways, core values, big deal, right? So we'll, we'll, we wanna work somewhere there where there's no drugs and no dumb stuff, and we get paid- That's right
[00:14:16] Nicole Greer: a decent wage. That's good. Okay. All right, so here, let's do this. Let's demystify compensation. When you build a compensation structure- Mm-hmm ... career ladders and market ranges, what are you really trying to accomplish for the organization?
[00:14:30] Brenna Fitzsimmons: I think that it creates a structure that creates equity across groups because everybody kn- I think there's a tendency to have some maybe blindness, for instance.
[00:14:42] Brenna Fitzsimmons: I think it really helps having a structure to keep things aligned between departments and their divisions, because a lot of times leaders may not have, specifically the directors and individuals in the particular business areas or programs, they might not have real insight into what the other people in [00:15:00] the other groups or divisions are doing, but they may be doing same or similar work, meaning they're parallel roles, but they may not see it that way.
[00:15:07] Brenna Fitzsimmons: And so without that structure in place, it's very easy for the roles to be misaligned, right? As meaning- ... one director may fight harder for their group than maybe another one, or from a personality standpoint, different things, and it really keeps an even playing field to keep the equity in terms of parallel positions and roles.
[00:15:25] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Are they in the same market range? Are they in, s- similarly placed? And I think that's really important. I think as we talk about career progression, which I mentioned too, is that having a career, a clear career ladder helps the associates, it helps the leaders, it really helps everyone because the person knows where they are, what opportunities are available to them.
[00:15:48] Brenna Fitzsimmons: And if it's not even in their group, I think it helps retention, right? As meaning if this if where I'm at in my career ladder, maybe I can move, learn new skills and move to a different area or a [00:16:00] different group. And so I think it gives visibility and transparency in terms of where people are, and then I, I think it also helps with equity, like in, equity across an organization and positions.
[00:16:13] Nicole Greer: Yeah. And it, here's this thing of f- salary transparency.
[00:16:18] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yes. Yes.
[00:16:20] Nicole Greer: It's coming, people.
[00:16:22] Brenna Fitzsimmons: It's coming. It is coming.
[00:16:23] Nicole Greer: It is coming. It's co-
[00:16:24] Brenna Fitzsimmons: I think it's a wonderful thing. I mean, I know I'm in Virginia right now, so we just, Yep ... it just came into place on July 1st And I think it's gonna be a great thing for people because it really lets...
[00:16:37] Brenna Fitzsimmons: People are moving away from some of the broad, a broad band, right? 'Cause it's such a large range, and moving more towards a small, a smaller range to really let people know what, what's the life cycle position that I could expect the range to be, and I think that it helps equalize pay, and what you'll find is that it may start to close the pay g- [00:17:00] the gender pay gap for people.
[00:17:01] Brenna Fitzsimmons: It may start to, I think that's really the intent is to keep things equitable and equal and fair,
[00:17:07] Nicole Greer: oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:17:09] Brenna Fitzsimmons: And,
[00:17:09] Nicole Greer: and some companies have been doing this for, I mean, like decades. Oh, yeah. And everybody thinks it's brand-spanking-new, but it's just- Oh, no.
[00:17:14] Nicole Greer: No, no, no ...
[00:17:15] Nicole Greer: no, no. Yeah. People have been doing it. And, and here's the thing people who wanna work- Mm-hmm ... wanna do a good job, if you say, right now you're making a dollar an hour, but you could make a buck 50 if you learned these, these competencies-" Yeah. "... you had these skills in place," and guess what they'll do?
[00:17:34] Nicole Greer: They'll go get those things in place- Yeah ... and then, don't miss this everybody, then you have a more valuable-
[00:17:42] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Right ...
[00:17:42] Nicole Greer: employee.
[00:17:43] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Absolutely.
[00:17:44] Nicole Greer: And then you put that person to work on harder stuff.
[00:17:48] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah. It's, it's upskilling. A- a- Right there. Yeah. Upskilling your workforce. It gives them, yeah, I think it gives them a means to do it and a, and a motivation to do it right.
[00:17:57] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Like-
[00:17:58] Nicole Greer: 100% ...
[00:17:58] Brenna Fitzsimmons: if you know that something's [00:18:00] there and available to us, you're more likely, I think, to go and gain skills or get more training or, kind of push yourself outside of your box a little bit.
[00:18:08] Nicole Greer: And and when you were a generalist, okay- Yeah ... and when I was in the HR office kinda thing- Yeah
[00:18:15] Nicole Greer: People would c- come in, and they'd be like, "I want a raise."
[00:18:18] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Right.
[00:18:19] Nicole Greer: And it's like- Yeah ... if you have that stuff in place, it's like, "Oh, that's no problem. I'd love to give you a raise. You just need to move yourself from here to there."
[00:18:26] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah.
[00:18:27] Nicole Greer: You
[00:18:27] Brenna Fitzsimmons: know? It's true. I think I would
[00:18:28] Nicole Greer: agree
[00:18:29] Brenna Fitzsimmons: with you. That's not a
[00:18:30] Nicole Greer: hard conversation. Yeah. Just, "Oh, you gotta do more."
[00:18:33] Brenna Fitzsimmons: It doesn't. It creates a pathway, right? 100%. It creates a pathway and transparency to the conversation, yeah.
[00:18:40] Nicole Greer: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. All right. So let's go, let's go to our next question. Okay. We hear a lot about, well, we're talking about it, pay transparency.
[00:18:46] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Oh, yeah.
[00:18:47] Nicole Greer: Okay, what do we need to learn about this pay transparency before what every leader and manager needs to understand before we start doing this? What do they need to understand?
[00:18:56] Brenna Fitzsimmons: I think that where I see a lot of people where I would love to see them [00:19:00] more is more knowledgeable is that each organization, just like what you talked about, each organization has a culture, right?
[00:19:07] Nicole Greer: Yes. And
[00:19:08] Brenna Fitzsimmons: so-
[00:19:08] Nicole Greer: Good or bad ...
[00:19:09] Brenna Fitzsimmons: this is, yeah, good or bad
[00:19:10] Nicole Greer: Intentional or not.
[00:19:11] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Good or bad. And but I think that also plays into compensation too. It's the same as every organization has a compensation philosophy, whether it's written on a piece of paper or not, right? They have a- Oh, yeah ... organizational philosophy, like what that is, and managers really would benefit from becoming immersed and confident in what that compensation philosophy is at an organizational level.
[00:19:37] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Because without that, they can't really explain or talk to it. And I think that's where I see, and see the gap is, and also there's a misconception that the pay philosophy is the same at every organization. Just like the culture is different, the culture is different, therefore the pay philosophy is also different by each organization, and it's not gonna be the same in each organization.
[00:19:59] Brenna Fitzsimmons: That's what [00:20:00] I would say is to Define it, learn it, understand it, be able to communicate it, 'cause that's what's gonna help you be able to talk to the pay transparency is that without having the background of where the organization is will be able to help people communicate their, their pay philosophy, right?
[00:20:18] Nicole Greer: Yeah, absolutely. And I just had a conversation with a leader yesterday, Brenna, and they had this individual, and they finally retired. Oh.
[00:20:27] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Okay?
[00:20:28] Nicole Greer: Oh. Okay? Okay. I'm getting,
[00:20:30] Brenna Fitzsimmons: I'm getting the- ... the backstory already.
[00:20:33] Nicole Greer: So it's oh my gosh, why, why didn't somebody coach this senior leader? I mean, I don't- Yeah
[00:20:40] Nicole Greer: even know what's going on here. But anyway, so the senior leader would give her people the max. She would- Mm ... do all the stuff. But her pay philosophy, and they were letting her do it, inside her department was- Yeah ... different than other leaders- Other leaders ... , "we pay for, for performance."
[00:20:56] Nicole Greer: But she was pay, she was paying to make friends- Ooh ... [00:21:00] and to keep peace- Gosh. Woo ...
[00:21:02] Brenna Fitzsimmons: and
[00:21:02] Nicole Greer: to, w- it was, and the new guy, he's just "I've got a mess."
[00:21:06] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yes.
[00:21:06] Nicole Greer: Yes, you do. So here, here they're coming, 'cause their, their year is July to June, and so here- Yeah ... here it's coming, and he's got to have all these hard conversations with people- Oh
[00:21:17] Nicole Greer: about, "No, we're gonna, this is gonna be based on merit and-
[00:21:21] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Right ...
[00:21:22] Nicole Greer: key productivity indicators." Yeah. And they're like, "
[00:21:25] Brenna Fitzsimmons: What?" Pay to the skies, yeah. It's always the... Whew, goodness. Yeah, I think that exactly like what we talked about, the communication thread or loop through again, right, is that if they had had a conversation with her as a leader in how she should be approaching the subject, it may have changed them having to kind of come in and overhaul, and,
[00:21:44] Nicole Greer: when those things happen- Oh,
[00:21:45] Brenna Fitzsimmons: it's gonna be not good
[00:21:45] Brenna Fitzsimmons: it, it's, it can be very upsetting To people, and that's when they usually exit, when we talk about it affecting... Some people would likely leave the organization over it when they may have been a very valuable person from a [00:22:00] skill perspective, right?
[00:22:01] Nicole Greer: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and so the, what we're saying is, you, you probably have pockets- Yeah
[00:22:07] Nicole Greer: of man- of, of things that are not quite right. So you're gonna have to do a overhaul leadership thing on all this whole thing, I think too. Yeah. Training is gonna be absolutely huge. Yeah. Okay. So there's all those good things. Now, you're also a coach, and- Yeah ... i, I gotta tell you, Brenna, when I go speak at many of the Society of Human Resource Management- Uh-huh
[00:22:26] Nicole Greer: meetings that I am invited to, and listen y'all, I'm grateful when I go to these meetings I al- I almost beg, I get on my knees, I literally do. You can ask people. I'm like, "Would you please go get a coaching certificate? It will change the way you do HR." Yeah. And even the numbers gals, right?
[00:22:43] Nicole Greer: Yes. And guys like Brenna need to be- Yeah ... a bit of a coach. W- what, I love the fact that you're a coach. So tell me this, how has coaching made you a better compensation leader?
[00:22:53] Brenna Fitzsimmons: It's honestly trans- been transformational. Like-
[00:22:56] Nicole Greer: Don't miss that.
[00:22:57] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah. Transformational, I would [00:23:00] say. Because it's really about the individual, right?
[00:23:03] Brenna Fitzsimmons: The person's experience toward it, what is the person struggling with, what's the leader struggling with, where's the person at, what's the business challenge? And some of it is about questions, right? Which questions you ask, what information is shared. Exactly. It's all about coaching. It's about the questions, really.
[00:23:23] Brenna Fitzsimmons: It's about what questions you ask, and the information, and how you are able to address the questions, and that's where the gaps close, right? That's where you close the gap between... I think that's, a lot of times, when you think about it, that's really what it is. Where's, how do we close the gap, between s- where someone thinks they're supposed to be, where they are. That could be a an opportunity for them to up-skill. That could be maybe a budget constraint of the organization. There's all these factors that are behind it, and without knowing what questions to ask, you'll never have all the information to really either help someone get to where they wanna [00:24:00] be, or maybe level set in terms of maybe there's a gap between, like organizationally, what budget they think they have to work with versus really what it is, right?
[00:24:11] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Right.
[00:24:12] Nicole Greer: Where there's just ex- there's some sort of- Or we could go ask for some money.
[00:24:14] Brenna Fitzsimmons: I know, right? There's only-
[00:24:15] Nicole Greer: If we had a business case for why this- Yeah ... guy or gal needs more money.
[00:24:19] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah. And so coaching is, I think, very much that too, is closing the gap or, and I think in compensation that's the case too, is that it's, there's more than just the initial concern that's brought up, right?
[00:24:35] Brenna Fitzsimmons: There's always usually something behind it that's unseen, and without knowing what questions to ask, you never really get down to the heart of what the concern is to be able to help the person where you need to.
[00:24:45] Nicole Greer: Yeah. And everybody that's listening, you know what this word means: assume.
[00:24:50] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yes.
[00:24:50] Nicole Greer: Right? Everybody knows what that means. Yeah. Wink, wink. Okay. And so here's the thing. I think a lot of times, again, compensation is di- there's a dialogue. Sometimes I'll [00:25:00] tell people this, Bryn, I'll say, "The most-" Yeah ... "important conversations about you-
[00:25:03] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Mm-hmm ...
[00:25:04] Nicole Greer: are at work, are when you're not in the room."
[00:25:07] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah. '
[00:25:08] Nicole Greer: Cause we're talking about your promotion, your opportunities, your future- Yeah ... your money. Mm-hmm ... and so there's a lot of assumptions when they say, "Let's give her this much money." There- Yeah ... there's all these assumptions, but what you're saying is, "Sit down with this human." Yeah. "Ask a lot of questions.
[00:25:24] Nicole Greer: Make sure you know the whole story."
[00:25:26] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah. Yes.
[00:25:28] Nicole Greer: Yes. 'Cause it could be they were working for a leader that didn't allow them to use this whole skill set, but they've got it.
[00:25:35] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Exactly, and you don't know until you talk to the person. I had a recent situation that the person, understandably it's emotional, and sometimes people need some time to process, right?
[00:25:45] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Absolutely. The person was upset over the outcome. They didn't get the raise or the promotion that they were expecting. But the person came back later and with creating that safe space is really... They came back and they said, "You know what? Thanks for the [00:26:00] conversation. I was upset because, not because of what happened here, but because when I was at a previous place, I was treated unfairly in terms of how they paid or did pay."
[00:26:09] Brenna Fitzsimmons: So some- you don't know necessarily, unless you open it, what's behind it,
[00:26:13] Nicole Greer: No, they're having a flashback to the bad company.
[00:26:15] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Right. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. You just
[00:26:17] Nicole Greer: don't know. Right. Yeah. Okay. Well, let, let's do this. Okay you ha- you ha- I have to tell someone they didn't receive the raise they wanted.
[00:26:25] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:26:26] Nicole Greer: Okay? How would you coach the manager to prepare for that conversation?
[00:26:32] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah. I think that it's honestly a kind of a lot of what we were already talking about, is that you can speak to the... I think it... Well, let me start off this, is coming into the conversation there needs to be a safe space of empathy, clarity, and confidence, like on the manager, to create the space for the person to tell you about how they're feeling and, what's going on with the [00:27:00] person.
[00:27:00] Brenna Fitzsimmons: And I think it's about, open communication. Sometimes there are instances that you have to communicate things that they don't, that's not preferred. Maybe, the budget this year was less than last year, or maybe the person from a performance standpoint didn't perform as well as they thought that they did.
[00:27:18] Brenna Fitzsimmons: And so some of those messages is clear, is kindness. Sometimes that doesn't always mean the conversation is the way the person wants it to go, but if you're clear and very open, have that openness in the conversation, I think that's really a lot can be what it's about, is creating an openness to have the conversation, and not avoiding it.
[00:27:41] Brenna Fitzsimmons: That's what people I see a lot of the time do that. Yes. It's, it's... I'm not saying it's not tough. It's tough. But-
[00:27:47] Nicole Greer: Of course it's tough ...
[00:27:48] Brenna Fitzsimmons: avoiding it is actually worse because the person, we make up these stories in our own head, right? We ma- we kind of fill in the gaps. If you don't, if you're not clear about the reasoning, [00:28:00] the person may, kind of make up their own story, which may have n- it may have nothing to do with the re- the true reasons.
[00:28:07] Nicole Greer: Yeah. That's right. That's right. And, and I think also too th- the, the conversation is I, I wanna back our train way up. So everybody listening, this is something Nicole talks about all the time.
[00:28:19] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah.
[00:28:19] Nicole Greer: We need in our... Or going back to the employee life cycle, is we need to upfront in the onboarding process- Mm
[00:28:26] Nicole Greer: even if the person never touches a budget, never looks at a budget, we still have to d- ha- teach people business acumen. Absolutely. If, if somebody really understands how a business works and you say, "We're not doing so great. Sales are down."
[00:28:43] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Right. Yeah.
[00:28:43] Nicole Greer: Expenses are e- the electricity bill went up, whatever, we just don't have the money.
[00:28:50] Nicole Greer: And, and here's the thing. If people understand how a business works, they'll be like, "Well, how can I help?"
[00:28:56] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Absolutely ...
[00:28:57] Nicole Greer: what could we do to get [00:29:00] sales? Let's turn off the light in the bathroom. Whatever the things have to be. Yes. People can help you, and then once we're back in the, in the black, we're back in the in business here, then the leader can, can rally and g- you know, pay you a portion of, of what w- what we've done to change things.
[00:29:16] Nicole Greer: Yeah. So I, I just think business acumen's a big part of compensation. People understand i- if the stock is down, we can't give huge raises.
[00:29:25] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah, and people want to. That's the thing. Right, right. Not only that, they want to. I don't know anyone without that openness in conversation. They wanna do those things.
[00:29:34] Brenna Fitzsimmons: What can I do on my end? And I think it's about some level of vulnerability as a leader, right? Is being vulnerable- 100% ... enough to have that conversation that you may not wanna have, but with that vulnerability I think you can get down to a lot of it is they would more readily understand, hey, we can't give these this year, and then they know the reasoning why.
[00:29:54] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Doesn't mean they like it, doesn't mean-
[00:29:57] Nicole Greer: Oh, no ...
[00:29:57] Brenna Fitzsimmons: right. But they understand it,
[00:29:59] Nicole Greer: that's [00:30:00] right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So I think u- understanding the profit and loss statement.
[00:30:04] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah.
[00:30:05] Nicole Greer: Teach it to- Yes ... everybody, everybody. Okay. All right. Let's talk about AI for a second because- Oh, yes
[00:30:11] Nicole Greer: I'm assuming everybody and their brother is going to ChatGPT and saying, "We have 500 employees and I'm promoting this person to manager, and they've got- Yeah ... this kind of experience. What should I pay them?" I mean like, you, you need to have a little more background than that. Yeah ... but I think probably AI could be helpful.
[00:30:27] Nicole Greer: What are you doing? Where do you see it helping compensation- Yeah ... professionals, and where, where is the human Brenna brain always gonna- Yeah ... be needed?
[00:30:37] Brenna Fitzsimmons: I would say, which I think anybody would say this with any advice, don't... If you don't know what you're putting in and can't replicate it outside of the application, don't use it don't use it as the final decision-making mechanism.
[00:30:50] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Use it as a tool just like anything else. It should be used as a tool, not the decision-maker. So that's something with any good advice. And then if you can't [00:31:00] validate what you're putting in, that what it's spitting back out, meaning if you're not able to replicate it outside, you can't, you can't check if it's doing the calculations correctly, right?
[00:31:11] Brenna Fitzsimmons: So that's what I would say is just to be mindful of that is that AI is, kind of structured to give you an answer regardless if it's the right one. Right. So just be, just be mindful of that. I found it very useful to in terms of making work... Remember how you said upskilling and making us do more important work?
[00:31:34] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yes. I think that it's helped make things more- efficient, and I love to use it for things like job descriptions or things- Yes, yes ... words missing, love to use it for all that. I use it for- Mm-hmm ... a lot of different communication things. Sometimes it can help you if you can write the s- how you write the script or when I say script I'm meaning what words you use and what order and what you're asking for the output to be.
[00:31:58] Brenna Fitzsimmons: So I think that's [00:32:00] probably one of the most important things that you're asking it to do what you want the output to be. So the input that you're putting in is gonna r- reference or influence how good your output's gonna be when you're using AI. But I use it a lot of for that. I think for i- ideation it's good for like for instance, "Hey, I have this job title.
[00:32:19] Brenna Fitzsimmons: I would love to have some different options and maybe different alliterations of what it could be." And so you may not use the final output, but it may give you some insight or ideas. So I, I kinda using it for th- those are the types of things that I've been using it for.
[00:32:33] Nicole Greer: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I do the same thing.
[00:32:35] Nicole Greer: But it's- Yeah ... the quality of the prompts.
[00:32:37] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Right,
[00:32:39] Nicole Greer: exactly. It's the quality of the prompts. It's the quality of the prompts. All right. Yeah. Okay, all right. So let, let's touch on this quickly. So you, you also do change management, so- Yeah ... you've got like the cool little toolbox, right? Whenever organizations reorganize jobs, redesign- Mm-hmm
[00:32:53] Nicole Greer: career leader- ladders, change compensation structures, what mistakes do leaders make with the people side of [00:33:00] change? Oof. Oof. We could... We don't have time for this question. We don't have a lot of- We don't have time
[00:33:03] Brenna Fitzsimmons: to go, I know, to go through all of that, right?
[00:33:06] Nicole Greer: Right.
[00:33:06] Brenna Fitzsimmons: What I would say is that I think it's all about the communication and the beforehand, because a lot, I think what they discount is like- By the time the leader gets to making the decision, they've been marinating in this, these decisions for three, six months.
[00:33:22] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yes. Sometimes a very, very long time. Yes,
[00:33:24] Nicole Greer: yes. So
[00:33:25] Brenna Fitzsimmons: I think what they have a blind spot sometimes is that when by the time the as- you're communicating the associate, they're just now getting... They're just now at the table, so they're just hearing it for the first time. So they're gonna need... You've gotta give them some time to process it.
[00:33:39] Brenna Fitzsimmons: You have to make a structure around the communication where it's not just communicated one time, but multiple times where the person's able to accept it. I also think it's important, a lot of times leaders, they have this such strategic mindset and vision of an organization, but the associate may need something to walk [00:34:00] away with.
[00:34:00] Brenna Fitzsimmons: How is this gonna affect me personally? What's this look like for me? I understand the vision, but how's this gonna make my job different? What's this look like? And so I think having visuals and something, a plan for how it's gonna look and affect their work is really important, and it gives the person a roadmap, right?
[00:34:17] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Giving the person a roadmap of what it's gonna look like.
[00:34:20] Nicole Greer: Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. All right. So I have this coaching methodology called SHINE.
[00:34:26] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Oh, perfect. I love that.
[00:34:27] Nicole Greer: Yeah. And so we're gonna go into our SHINE segment now. So if every CEO in America truly understood one thing about compensation, and this is all about leading with clarity, what would you want it to be?
[00:34:40] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Oh, that's good. I think maybe it would be to think about just what they... I think it, probably back when we talked about the compensation philosophy- Yes ... is maybe defining that, defining what you want that to be for the organization, and also communicating it. I think that's the [00:35:00] biggest. Defining it and then communicating what it is, and then everyone kind of understands it, or generally speaking would understand it.
[00:35:07] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah.
[00:35:07] Nicole Greer: Yeah. And since we have been talking, 'cause we had the, a previous conversation, now we're having this conversation-
[00:35:12] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah ...
[00:35:12] Nicole Greer: I'm like, "That should be in the handbook."
[00:35:15] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yes. I agree.
[00:35:17] Nicole Greer: I have never- Yeah ... read a handbook where it said, "Here is our leadership compensation strategy," or- Yeah ... or, "our philosophy."
[00:35:25] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah.
[00:35:25] Nicole Greer: That's not I think it's a game changer. Okay. I
[00:35:27] Brenna Fitzsimmons: agree.
[00:35:28] Nicole Greer: All right. So SHINE, let's go through the letters. It's an acronym. The, the S stands for self-awareness. How should leaders think differently about compensation?
[00:35:37] Brenna Fitzsimmons: I think that they should realize it's not the only motivation and motivator, and while it is one piece, a lot of times most, not all times, a lot of times when people are misaligned or maybe emotional or not happy with the outcome, it honestly is a lot, most of the time not to do actually with the compensation itself, it's something [00:36:00] surrounding it, like career progression or how they feel valued or their perception may be misaligned.
[00:36:07] Brenna Fitzsimmons: I think it's a-- So I would say, it's more than just about the numbers.
[00:36:11] Nicole Greer: Okay. All right, so the H in SHINE stands for habits. What habits separate excellent compensation leaders from average ones?
[00:36:19] Brenna Fitzsimmons: A lot of times it's so easy to get in a silo, right? It's so easy to get in your little silo and box and not understand other people's perspective, is because it's about data, right?
[00:36:31] Brenna Fitzsimmons: It's about data and numbers. And I would say almost any person I've ever... It's all about benchmarking, right? We benchmark everything. Everything's benchmarked.
[00:36:39] Nicole Greer: Benchmark to death.
[00:36:40] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Ben- yeah, exactly. But that doesn't, I think the people, people that it affects personally, they don't care about the benchmarks, right?
[00:36:49] Nicole Greer: No.
[00:36:49] Brenna Fitzsimmons: They don't care about the
[00:36:50] Nicole Greer: benchmarks. Benchmark,
[00:36:51] Nicole Greer: schmarchmark.
[00:36:51] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah, exactly. Like, how does this affect, how does this affect me? What's, what's in it for me? That's right. So I think it's about, cl- tying those things together, is [00:37:00] what I would say.
[00:37:00] Nicole Greer: Okay. All right, so the I in SHINE stands for integrity.
[00:37:04] Nicole Greer: How do you maintain fairness while balancing budgets?
[00:37:07] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Mm-hmm. I think some of it is around transparency, right? Like- Yes ... meaning if the budget is less this year, you probably need to tell people that upfront, and maybe they, they... it's gonna change how they're gonna approach what they receive or not, right?
[00:37:24] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Because let's say, a few years ago when the... everything was, the economy and the job market was a little different, they may have been able to give a higher increase than maybe, "Okay, this year's tough for us, it has to be less." If you don't communicate what's going on, a person is gonna say, "What did I do wrong?
[00:37:42] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Why is it different than it was before? What's behind this?" And so I think it's about, I, I think it's a lot about communication, openness, transparency, right?
[00:37:50] Nicole Greer: Absolutely. Okay, the N in SHINE stands for next right step. What is one thing every HR leader, no matter what role they're in, should improve [00:38:00] this week?
[00:38:01] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Ooh, I love this one. Empathy. I, I would say empathy. Yeah.
[00:38:06] Nicole Greer: Yeah. T- f- figure out what shoes you're trying to understand across from you. Yeah. All right. Energy is the E in SHINE. How do you stay energized in a profession that often involves difficult conversations? How do you take care of Brenna? Yes.
[00:38:19] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Oh, I would think it's really about integrating things that invigorate you as a person, and about giving back to your soul, like, in some ways, right?
[00:38:29] Brenna Fitzsimmons: And so I think for me it's different things. I love being outside. I love, being with my kids, playing with the... So I think it's about integrating those things in, things that you love, and also stepping back. Sometimes even when things are hard, is that stepping back to understand why you're doing it.
[00:38:46] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Is you're doing... Well, for me, personally, a lot of times it's about the people, right? You're doing it for the people. You're doing it because you wanna do the right things. You wanna make a difference. And so I think it's about almost revisiting your own values, right? How is [00:39:00] that aligned?
[00:39:00] Nicole Greer: Yeah. Very good.
[00:39:01] Nicole Greer: Very good. Okay, so we're at the very end. We're gonna have our rapid fire round with Brenna. Okay. Okay, Brenna Fitzsimmons, are you ready? I'm ready. Okay. All right, one word that describes great leadership.
[00:39:14] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Gosh, integrity I would say.
[00:39:16] Nicole Greer: Okay. Coffee or tea?
[00:39:18] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Oh, definitely coffee.
[00:39:20] Nicole Greer: Okay, me too. Yeah. All right.
[00:39:21] Nicole Greer: Spreadsheet or whiteboard?
[00:39:23] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Ooh, probably spreadsheet. I know, I'm a spreadsheet person.
[00:39:27] Nicole Greer: Okay. Favorite busi- business book of all time?
[00:39:30] Brenna Fitzsimmons: So probably Dare to Lead. I'm a Brene Brown fan. Mm. Love her, so yeah.
[00:39:35] Nicole Greer: Sh- so good. Okay, one leadership lesson you got you'll never forget.
[00:39:40] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Let's see. That's a good one. I think it's about s- understanding what's important to people.
[00:39:48] Brenna Fitzsimmons: That's what I would say. Yeah.
[00:39:49] Nicole Greer: Okay. All right. What is the most rewarding compensation project you ever worked on?
[00:39:54] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Ooh, that's a good one. I think it was one that I did where there was no structure, so I [00:40:00] love where the part where you create structure and ranges and make it all nice and neat and easy to understand, so I think for me that was probably that was probably the best one.
[00:40:08] Nicole Greer: Okay. We'll bring it home with this final question. One thing every employee misunderstands about their pay.
[00:40:16] Brenna Fitzsimmons: This is gonna sound silly enough, but a lot of times it's not, it's not personal, right? I mean, that can be tough to understand 'cause it's personal to the person, right? If the organization is doing it correctly, so let me just say that.
[00:40:30] Brenna Fitzsimmons: If they're doing the right things equitably across, they're doing it for fairness. Yeah.
[00:40:35] Nicole Greer: N- that's fantastic. All right. Very good. All right, Brenna, it's been so good to hang out with you. Yeah. I loved meeting you a couple weeks ago, and I'm like, "You gotta come on the show and talk about compensation," and you were so generous to give us a, an hour of your life.
[00:40:48] Nicole Greer: If people wanted to find out about you, where do they find you? How, how do they get up with you?
[00:40:53] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Yeah, so look for me on LinkedIn. I'm under Brenna Fitzsimmons on LinkedIn, and so you'll find me there, and [00:41:00] I'm on various boards and different organizations, and I also have my own coaching and consulting company called Infinite Possibilities, so you can just imagine kinda where my mind was with that.
[00:41:13] Brenna Fitzsimmons: So yeah. So thanks for that.
[00:41:14] Nicole Greer: Yeah, you're welcome. All right, everybody, it's been another amazing episode of the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast. And so do us a favor, will you just take a hot second, go to the bottom, click and leave a love note for Brenna and myself. We need encouragement. I'm just saying.
[00:41:28] Nicole Greer: Doesn't everybody? All right. Good to be with you, Brenna. Thank you,
[00:41:31] Brenna Fitzsimmons: Thank you. Bye.