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Two longtime music pros (Sensei & Fatboi) go deep on what makes music great. A podcast for music producers, artists, and fans.
Fatboi is a Multi-platinum, Grammy nominated, award winning producer whose credits include: Camoflauge, YoungBoy Never Broke Again, Gucci Mane, Young Jeezy, Rocko, Shawty Redd, Flo Rida, Bow Wow, Bone Thugs-n-Harmony, Juvenile, Yung Joc, Gorilla Zoe, OJ Da Juiceman, 8Ball & MJG, Jeremih, 2 Chainz, Nicki Minaj, Bobby V, Ludacris and Yo Gotti, Monica, Zay Smith, TK Kravitz, Future.
Sensei Hollywood (a.k.a. Dan Marshall) formerly an instructor and chair of the Audio Production program at the Art Institute of Atlanta, is an accomplished musician, producer, engineer who's performed on and engineered multi--platinum records with Big Boi, Outkast, Killer Mike, Chamillionaire, Carlos Santana, Mary J. Blige, Snoop Dogg, Ron Isley, Lil Wayne, Trillville, Monica, and more...
Sensei (00:00)
the collision of worlds is where all the interesting stuff happens.
Fatboi (00:03)
Rockbox. I thought that about Rockbox too is like, man, how did they get the real rock sound? Like who's playing down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down down
Fuse rock in the hip hop and it sounds good as hell like, no, we ain't never heard no shit like this before.
Sensei (00:36)
Yeah.
Fatboi (01:15)
it was one of those records, man, that just had, it just blew everybody away because, and that was that first fusion.
Sensei (01:22)
Crossover.
Fatboi (01:24)
Hip-hop and rock. And it was a big one. We gotta break that down. Yeah, we gotta break rock box down. Cause that literally was the, that was that first fusion that I can recall. Hip-hop and rock. It was the first. But it was a banger. Like how did they still make that work? You know?
Sensei (01:26)
I think we got a few episodes we could do with that for sure.
Okay.
People have been playing with people and
trying to find that the sweet spot with that for a while. And definitely late nineties, two thousands, there was a whole rap rock thing. I don't know if they got it right, but they were definitely trying.
Fatboi (01:54)
Yeah,
It was a few of them that got it right. But I think the catalyst, the main catalyst in this into why Rockbox worked is Rick Rubin. Rick Rubin made it work because Rick Rubin understands the rock world.
Sensei (02:12)
Another guy is great at bringing worlds together.
Fatboi (02:14)
another guy that's great at bringing worlds together. it worked because he knew who to call to get that sound.
Sensei (02:23)
I love it when a plan comes together.
Fatboi (02:25)
love it when the plan comes together. man, boy, mean, rock to this day, man, 2025, Rockbox is still one of my favorite all time records. If I hear it right now, it's just gonna, it's gonna do something to me because I can still remember the first time I heard it. You know what mean? Those kinds of records that put you in those, in that mind. The first time you heard a record, how you felt when you heard it, it's like, man, this record is...
Amazing. And everybody loved it.
Sensei (02:56)
Well, tell you what. Same thing? This
is our year. Tell you what, let me get through this here.
Fatboi (03:01)
Run,
run DMC. ⁓
Sensei (03:04)
Well
I gotcha, might as well get through this here. I through these stupid ads.
Fatboi (03:07)
And it's the first time I heard
a rapper cuss. He said, fresh shit.
Sensei (03:13)
Someone had to be the first.
Fatboi (03:14)
Somebody had to be the first. And this was before the Luke Skywalker stuff where you had to put stickers on records. So there's no sticker. Yeah, before 2 Live Crew, there's no sticker. But Run says fresh shit.
Sensei (03:23)
The 2Live crew thing, yeah. ⁓ man. ⁓
He got away with that one got one under the radar. All right, here you go. ⁓ Let's see if I can make this work
Fatboi (03:32)
He got away with it.
Run, run, D, even the way it starts, man. That's just run, run, D, ⁓ C.
Yeah, there it is.
Sensei (03:46)
current to excite
an incandescent lamp to its proper candle power. Many people thought that ⁓ rap began in Hollywood one day when a child was born. And they called it the Andrew Sisters. It was a child of a Bayou woman. Not Bayou. A Bayou woman. Who with her ⁓ beautiful diamond rings and her store-bought hair.
Fatboi (04:21)
One of the greatest records ever recorded in hip hop.
Sensei (04:23)
I don't know if I've ever heard this before.
I never heard this intro, like, the whole thing like this. The fugue starts where, in its contra-punctual form, where we find that the melody keeps coming in. And the audience keeps going out.
Fatboi (04:28)
This is MTV. This is what had us in MTV. Michael Jackson, Prince, ⁓ and Run DMC. That's what had us watching MTV.
Sensei (04:44)
Fresh, fresh shit!
Fatboi (04:47)
And they let it play, it played. He said it.
Sensei (04:55)
⁓ I know who this is. I think this is Carlos Alomar who used to play with David Bowie.
Fatboi (05:02)
Yeah, but I don't know if he actually played the song though.
Sensei (05:05)
⁓ well the guy on the video is pretty famous, like another session-grade sideman.
Fatboi (05:08)
Yeah, yeah, I remembered him. Yeah, I remembered him.
I remembered him.
Those are real guitar licks, man. Real rock principles.
Sensei (05:40)
It's all about the articulation.
Fatboi (05:40)
The good
yes articulation the guitar and the bass all playing the same thing.
Sensei (05:47)
⁓
Fatboi (05:51)
And then you had to solo stuff.
Sensei (06:03)
Nice.
Fatboi (06:09)
I say sharp as a nail, witty as can be and not for sale. Always funky fresh, could never be stale and didn't fail. Demonstrate that I create. That's what you heard is absurd.
Sensei (06:09)
Yeah.
I've
missing all
Fatboi (06:31)
Say it anyway.
WAH!
You hear that guitar in the back? You want to? Until we're through. Now, now look, imagine this me as a little ass kid, like 83, 83, 84, I think. So me as a little ass kid, man, I'm focusing on this guy right here. Hold on. I'll show you. That guy in the very back.
Sensei (06:56)
When did this come out? 85? 83?
Fatboi (07:12)
Here's what main reason why I became a DJ. This guy in the back. And this record is one of the reasons why. Watch. Watch.
Side to side, back and forth with the two MCs and we're gonna go off, stand in place, walk or run, tap your feet, you be on the one, just clap y'all fingers and thump y'all hands. I DJs better than all these right here.
Right there, Jam Master damn J. Jam Master fucking J, man, is one of my DJ inspirations that made me want, I couldn't wait to grow up and be a damn DJ. That guy right there, man.
Sensei (07:57)
Just tasty little
scratch right there and never really heard that mainstream music until... not much.
Fatboi (08:01)
Man, it's just...
Nah,
not like that. And Jam Master Jay wasn't, he wasn't a jazzy Jeff. He wasn't that. But Jam Master Jay for what Run DMC was, his scratches was just, they were just funky, man. Like real simple. Like the first scratches that I really tried to learn was Jam Master Jay scratches. And they were simpler to learn. And then the next level I went up,
Sensei (08:28)
Some of these could... Yeah, no.
Fatboi (08:34)
was to learn ⁓ Mix Master Ice from UTF-O scratches, because he had the... He had the triplet scratch.
Sensei (08:38)
Mmm.
But it's
not necessarily about what's harder technically, it's what fits the song the best, you know?
Fatboi (08:48)
yeah, definitely
what fits the song. ⁓ And ⁓ man, Jay, the scratches that he used to choose, man, it was just, it always fit the song, man. It's just, ⁓ pull up one more Run DMC record, pull up ⁓ Jam Master Jay, Run DMC. That's the name of song, Jam Master Jay.
Sensei (09:09)
All right, and damn
Mr. J here. Damn.
today.
Fatboi (09:16)
Like
this was the record, this was the song on that record that made my little child mine. I can't wait. Okay, this is what I wanna do, man. I wanna, and I started asking my parents for turntables and stuff and they're looking at me like I'm crazy.
Sensei (09:30)
leave this place.
Fatboi (09:37)
scratches, man, just these taking from jazz and funk and all that. Man, just listen to this stuff, man. All right, the very first cut.
And then it's stabbed.
Just that's and then it's right here.
That was his staple scratch. All the letters of his name, cutting and scratching all the edges of his game. So check out the master as he cuts these jams and look at us with the mics in our hand. Then take account. One, two, three, Jam Master J. Run DMC. This. Simple scratch.
Sensei (10:07)
J-A-Y on the letters of his name Cuttin' and scratchin' on the aspects of his game So check out the master as he cuts these jams And look at us with the mics in our hands Then take a
It's simple but now it's what else could go there, right?
Fatboi (10:37)
Where? Where? Where? He used to always find these whining horn scratches.
Sensei (10:43)
Yeah, and it makes the beat go...
Fatboi (10:47)
You see what I'm saying? So just imagine you as a little kid and you hearing this record go, wow.
Sensei (10:50)
It's like
Like, you can't do that, can you?
Fatboi (11:02)
It's just like, man,
how are they doing that?
So the way he selected his scratches was just dope, man. And that's what separated him. Boom, went, boom, boom, boom, went.
Sensei (11:19)
Also, it's such a production. It's like three elements happening here. You don't need a little bit of reverb to fill the space, I guess. It was kind of an early rap thing. There's like, even reverb on the kick drum.
Fatboi (11:22)
clean. That's it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of reverb on the kick drum back then to fill up space.
Sensei (11:41)
That doesn't really happen anymore.
Fatboi (11:46)
That, hey, that's one of the most famous stabs in hip hop history, man. Jam Master Jay, wah! hey, look, if you ever hear that wah, everybody knows that's Run DMC. Yep, Jam Master Jay.
Sensei (11:58)
That's a callback to Jam Master Jay.
Fatboi (12:11)
But we talking about Jam Master Jay. ha ha. Hey, so you talking about not so now I'm a little kid man. My mind is blown. Hip hop has captivated my mind. And all I want to do, I don't care about being them two guys right there. I care about being that guy in the background.
Sensei (12:32)
Let's see, that was for me. I wanted to be the guitar player. I don't want to be David Lee Roth. I want to be Eddie Van Halen.
Fatboi (12:40)
Yeah, man. You hear this stuff? It's super simple. ⁓
Sensei (12:42)
That's.
man, I see where the Beastie Boys borrowed their style.
Fatboi (12:52)
Well,
and they were all around each other. And then their main producer was Rick Rubin, so it kind of transformed over. ⁓
Sensei (12:59)
Yeah, that makes sense.
But not the bringer of worlds together. You know, can definitely see where they're, because Beastie Boys were like a punk band before Rick Rubin got ahold of them and made them what they were.
Fatboi (13:11)
Yeah. Yeah. And he feels them.
He made, he turned, he turned Ren DMC into the Kings of rock. Cause that's what they, because of rock box, they got known for that. So every album they came out with had to have a rock infused. So it had to have it. Their biggest records though, are the rock ones. The, the, on the second album, it was, I'm the King of rock. This is none higher.
Sensei (13:26)
that rock element.
Fatboi (13:39)
and their biggest record is Walk This Way.
Sensei (13:41)
⁓ we gotta play that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
Fatboi (13:45)
Walk this way. And look, that was Jam Master Jay's idea.
Sensei (13:51)
that this was a ginormous breakthrough record. Like it's hard to overstate how much this record was played.
Fatboi (13:56)
ginormous. No matter what anybody.
man, because no matter what nobody says about Run-DMC, we don't get to where we are in hip hop culture without what Russell Simmons, Rick Rubin, and Run-DMC and Jam Master Jay did for hip hop.
Sensei (14:18)
Plus,
this was a whole new lease on life for Aerosmith. They were kinda on the way out. They were done. And they had a whole second chapter after this record came out.
Fatboi (14:22)
It brought them back. It brought them back. Yeah, it brought them back, man.
forever grateful to Run DMC for that, man. They love Run DMC for that, man.
Sensei (14:34)
I always thought those...
Look, they got a literal wall. Keeping rap and rock apart.
Fatboi (14:40)
Yep, break the wall down. That's it. I like that.
Sensei (14:44)
Literally.
Fatboi (14:52)
Ha ha.
Sensei (15:03)
you
Fatboi (15:10)
Hey, think about it, for this time right here, this video is so dope because you got that cross, you got the wall separating rock and rap. They can't get to each other. They break through the wall. And when he breaks through and says, walk this, just come on, man. Whole another level.
Sensei (15:23)
That's a whole other level.
Fatboi (15:40)
You see how everybody's turning up the volume? They're turning up the guitars. They're turning up the DJ equipment. Everybody's turning it up, making it loud.
Sensei (15:50)
Here we go.
Is that blues?
Fatboi (15:59)
Yep, blues, yep.
Sensei (16:16)
Go Joe.
Fatboi (16:19)
and then Run DMC is gonna crash them on stage.
Sensei (16:29)
you
love this look on his face.
Fatboi (16:50)
So just imagine the hip hop crowd and the rock crowd together.
Sensei (16:55)
Didn't have to imagine I was there when I was in... This came out when was in college or whatever and this was everywhere. Wait, no, no, no, this is like 86? When did this come out? I was in high school for this. But it was still playing when I was in college.
Fatboi (17:00)
in college?
You sure you in college? Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is like 80, no, not, not, this might
be, this might be about like 88, 87, 88, yeah, yeah, you right.
Sensei (17:13)
87 is... yeah.
you ⁓
you
Fatboi (18:03)
Yeah, this record brought those guys back, man, in a big way, and they had a whole other run.
Sensei (18:12)
Yeah, this brought Aerosmith back. It was ginormous record to play. Like I said, it lasted for years, the kind of play that it got. I remember hearing this, like it was like a staple even like four or five years after it came out, man. This was a huge record that very impactful. Probably led to all the rap rock stuff in the nineties and early two thousands, you know, trying to get into the metal thing. But
Fatboi (18:21)
Yeah. Yeah.
and and
Sensei (18:42)
They had that sweet spot.
Fatboi (18:45)
Yeah, it was the perfect record to bring back. And ⁓ yeah, to this day, man, this record right here crossed, really, well, Rockbox kicked open the door because Rockbox actually, they kicked open the door on MTV. Like we could see rap on MTV. That was the prototype. then King of Rock took it that next step and walked this way just.
Sensei (19:05)
That was like the prototype.
Fatboi (19:14)
just brought the whatever the lost. Yeah. And those guys were smart to clear that.
Sensei (19:15)
We're gonna dust off some old rockers and give them a second chance. Here you go. And boom, it blew up.
Yeah, no, and
they leveraged it. Notice that.
Fatboi (19:28)
They could have
said, no, you can't use our record. But they were like, no.
Sensei (19:32)
Hey, notice that Steve
and Tyler opted to bring Joe Perry, the guitar player along for the ride for the video. You, you, the guitar plot set this, the guitar part set this whole song off, you know, ⁓
Fatboi (19:38)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean,
it's a smart play, man. I mean, they might have used the sample for the song, but Steve actually came in and re-sung the lead vocal. I mean, he's so good, he's gonna make it sound like how he made it sound. He knows how he did it.
Sensei (19:57)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but he it was
even more life to it. But yeah, no it what they did that saw honor the old song. It didn't take anything away from it or like wasn't a spin off of it. But it was just like a reference. But then the the merging of the two styles was something greater than the sum of its parts, you know.
Fatboi (20:06)
Yeah.
Right, yep, didn't
And this is the thing, Run and DMC did not like Rockbox at first. They were like, ⁓ man, Rick is trying to kill us already.
Sensei (20:32)
pushing us in this whole new direction. don't know, man. This guy, don't know what he's talking about here.
Fatboi (20:36)
Russell, yeah,
yeah, he's trying to kill our career. Russell, I don't know how Russell was able to do it, but Russell got him to see the bigger picture. And sometimes it takes you to actually see what a record does to make you be like, you know what? Hey, every album, let's do that. We gotta have one rock song.
Sensei (20:58)
People don't know what they want
until you show it to them.
Fatboi (21:03)
until you show it to them. then, and then you know, there's the element. You also got to also think rock was a black genre. You know, it came from, it came from black players first. So, I mean, it's something that we've already done. So us doing it again. And then you take, you take the, you take the European guys that took the blues, muddy waters and all those guys added the distorted guitars to it.
Sensei (21:16)
Yes.
Fatboi (21:31)
and blew that thing up like that and rock became what it became. I mean, it made sense. It's like, boom, it came back from whence it was born. So something else that we created, the rap game, all right, we came back to mama.
Sensei (21:38)
Yeah, no, definitely, definitely, definitely.
Exactly. ⁓
That, there you go. The wall was broken down again because it was a flimsy wall to begin with. Exactly.
Fatboi (21:56)
We ca-
Yeah, we found mama.
we found mama. We've been looking for you. We found mom again. And man, just, yeah, it just, and you know what? Anytime you've heard that rock and rap fusion, it seems like it's always worked.
Sensei (22:20)
Most of the time, but I will say that's the high water mark though.
Fatboi (22:23)
And there are
two rebellious genres too. The most rebellious genres of any genre of music, and rap, besides blues, blues and jazz is also rebellious. ⁓ But rap and rock are the most rebellious genres ⁓ for the youth. It's like, yeah, if you go left, we're going right.
Sensei (22:27)
Yes.
Yeah, well, it got the primal energy.
Yeah. But I will say walk this way was the high water mark of like the rap rock crossover. No one doesn't like that record. Everyone likes that record. You could play it at a wedding. People get up and dance and.
Fatboi (22:54)
Absolutely still still still the apex
to this day, and it's, you know, the naysayers of rap, those that would just, ⁓ I can't stand rap. When that record came out, it was like, okay, okay. Exactly, so, you know, ⁓ they have these ⁓ ratings, you know, greatest hip hop group, know, Wu-Tang Clan normally wins the greatest hip hop.
Sensei (23:12)
Well, that one's different. Yeah, we can get with that, you know.
Fatboi (23:29)
And a lot of people forget about Run DMC, but what they don't understand is rap was dying. Rap was about to die before Run DMC came out. Run DMC, they saved rap. ⁓ And they're the first rappers to go gold, think. Beastie Boys were the first to go platinum, but Run DMC was the first to go gold. They saved rap. ⁓ And just like... ⁓
Sensei (23:39)
They found a new avenue.
Fatboi (23:58)
rap saved the career of Aerosmith.
Sensei (24:01)
Aerosmith, yeah,
no, they got a whole, they were, they were done. They dusted them off for that one. Then they got a whole new lease on life and had more success than ever had before. Really. It was crazy.
Fatboi (24:12)
And
it's probably why we, and even that, know who Steven Tyler's daughter is because Steven was so popular.
Sensei (24:17)
Right.
And now he's over here judging the America's greatest god town or whatever.
Fatboi (24:22)
What is it? Yeah, I mean,
I think the second run is where the majority of their popularity came from because more they were, yeah.
Sensei (24:34)
at least the platinum song records. I
mean, they were an essential part of like hard rock in the seventies into the, it kind of fell apart in the eighties, know, drugs and whatever. like that put them back on the map and put them back in the game, you know?
Fatboi (24:40)
Yeah.
And
I think they understood the assignment. It's like, guys, we're back. We're back. Let's do, and I commend those guys, man, because they took advantage of it and they rode it out. They rode it out into this. Yeah. No, no, no. You get that one chance and if you drop the ball, yeah. I mean, because usually when it was over, it was over. And I mean, if you got the hitch.
Sensei (24:56)
Yeah, it's a second chance. Don't blow it, cats. You know? Yeah.
You don't get a lot of second chances in this business. But everyone likes a good comeback story. ⁓
Yeah.
Fatboi (25:18)
You spend the rest of your life touring, but they had, they caught, they caught a second win and actually made new hits.
Sensei (25:22)
But see, but
see this is, yeah, no, they definitely, but this is that hip hop ethos. You're going through the record crates. Hey, I always liked this song and it goes over these drums pretty good. And the, the idea was born. Then they brought it to fruition and actually got the artists themselves to like be on the record and in the video. That was kind of groundbreaking at the time.
Fatboi (25:30)
Yeah. Yeah.
It was and it's,
Sensei (25:49)
It was shocking
to see Steven Tyler in that video the first time.
Fatboi (25:53)
Cause to the, to this point, Run DMC had done the rock songs. Okay. We know they're that they are the kings of rock. was, that's their Run DMC. Who are they? Oh, those are the kings of rock. So you know who they are, but you hadn't seen them with actual rockers yet. And when walk this way came out, even though they were on their last leg, and, and, and Steven Tyler, he's such a
character. It just, I mean, it was the perfect guy to do, it was the perfect group to do a song with because you got Run DMC, their characters, all three of them, know, Run, Run, you know, he has his character, DMC is him, Jay acts like him, but they all have, they all wear the hats and all that, the black leather and all that. His flair, his...
Sensei (26:23)
Yeah.
They got their look together. But Steven Tyler brought his own personality character to stand
toe to toe on that. Yeah, it knows.
Fatboi (26:51)
Man,
and it was just, man, it was the perfect pairing, man. It was the perfect pairing.
Sensei (26:57)
Yeah,
that's the high water mark of the rap rock crossover. like, it's lightning in a bottle, Yeah.
Fatboi (27:02)
I think it was brilliant for Jam Master Jay to think of that, man. I think
Jay just, where that idea came from, I don't know. But him being a DJ, I'm sure he was just on his DJ shit and he was like, hey man, I think us doing this record is, we're already the kings of rock.
Sensei (27:15)
I just heard that beat.
Fatboi (27:25)
So, hey, boom. So, and it came, man. Yeah, it was a thing, man.
Sensei (27:27)
There you go.
They took it to the next level.
Fatboi (27:34)
It went to the next level. Next level.
Sensei (27:36)
Cause you know...
Fatboi (27:38)
levels to this
Sensei (27:39)
Thank you. Thank you for watching.