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Join NYSBA’s 118th President David Miranda each week as he interviews some of the biggest names in law and politics. Each week he discusses all things legal – and some that are not. You have the right to remain listening.
Dave Miranda:
I'm Dave Miranda, past President and General Counsel of the New York State Bar Association. Welcome to a special edition of Miranda Warnings, highlighting the history and influence of the New York State Bar Association. We're here today with a special edition of Miranda Warnings where we're talking about the history of the New York State Bar Association. We're joined today by Hank Greenberg, who's a shareholder at the law firm of Greenberg Traurig, and the 122nd President of the New York State Bar Association. Thank you, Hank.
Hank Greenberg:
It's a pleasure to be with you, David.
Dave Miranda:
It's great to have you. Hank has just written an article for the New York State Bar Journal that will appear in the March April 2023 edition. It's called The New York State Bar Association's Noblest Act, Preventing War and Establishing a World Court. This is a series of historical interviews that we have with Hank, about the New York State Bar Association. We talked about the birth of the Bar Association, in 1876. And then very quickly, the New York State Bar Association began projecting influence nationally and around the world, and by the 1890s, was working with US presidents on international matters. How did the New York State Bar Association get involved on such a high level, so quickly after its formation?
Hank Greenberg:
Well, first keep in mind, in 1896 and '99, the years we're talking about, New York is unquestionably the center of economic power in the United States, the largest state by population, the most powerful state. It had the most extraordinary bar selection and collection of lawyers in the nation. It still does. But the economic and political status of New York was so large that by extension, the statewide association representing the most consequential profession, the law, was of great influence nationally and internationally, as we'll discuss.
Dave Miranda:
Yeah. So your article talks about the New York State Bar Association's role in establishing a world court for international arbitration, which is known today as the International Tribunal of the Hague. What was the international situation that served as the protagonist for the New York State Bar Association to get involved in the cause of an international world court?
Hank Greenberg:
It's known today as the Venezuelan crisis of 1895. Somewhat lost to history, but it was the front page lead story in newspapers across the nation and the world, for months. In 1895, Great Britain had a colony, then known as British Guiana, today Guyana, in South America, that it wanted to extend its borders. There had been a dispute over the exact boundaries of British Guiana for nearly a half century. But in 1895, Great Britain wanted to push those boundaries even further, and have a larger footprint in Venezuela. The United States didn't agree. The President of the United States, Grover Cleveland, a New Yorker, a former Vice President of the New York State Bar Association too, was unalterably opposed to Great Britain extending its geographic footprint in Venezuela, because in his view, it violated the Monroe doctrine. That was the principle established as far back as George Washington, that European powers should not attempt to colonize in the Western Hemisphere of the globe.
So initially, in July of 1895, the Cleveland administration told Great Britain, "No, not a step further." Great Britain didn't flinch. And that led in December 1895, to the President to send a message to Congress, saying, in words or substance, if Great Britain doesn't resolve this dispute, if they try to extend their geographic territory in Venezuela, the United States will do anything within its means to stop it. Politicians, newspapers across the globe were aflame. War drums were beating. They viewed Cleveland's statement to Congress as either a threat of war at minimum, or a declaration of war. So in December of 1895, the world, the United States, and New York, a governor of New York is now the president, is fearful that there will be war, because of this border dispute.
Dave Miranda:
Right. So the New York State Bar Association, in January of 1896, shortly after this, it's having its annual meeting. And a famous order, Chauncey Depew, gives a speech at the New York State Bar Association's annual meeting. First, tell us about Chauncey Depew, and why he was so renowned in the 1890s.
Hank Greenberg:
Well, Chauncey Depew for several decades in American life was one of the most prominent figures in the country. Today, largely lost to history. But in 1896, when he addressed the state bar, he was the President of the New York Central Railroad. That would be like being the President of Amazon, AT&T or any Fortune 50 corporation in America, and then some. The railroads were an extraordinarily powerful force, and he was its president. He was also one of the most well-connected, if not the most well-connected political figure in the country, although he did not hold public office. For decades, especially within the Republican Party, where he had his early years as a office holder in the 1860s... He actually came to prominence in America in 1860, because he campaigned for Abraham Lincoln in the successful presidential election.
And in the years and decades to follow, Depew kept his relationships and connections with the Republican Party. He knew every president, from Lincoln all the way through Calvin Coolidge, on a personal basis. He was at every Republican National Convention, from 1860 through the 1920s. And in addition to his power as a industrialist and as a businessman, his political prominence, he was unquestionably the most prominent order in America. He estimated in his 80s, looking back on his life, that he delivered as many as 8,000 speeches at banquets and dinners and the like. When the Statue of Liberty was first dedicated, he delivered the primary oration. In the 1890s, when the World's Fair was held in Chicago, Chauncey Depew delivered the primary oration. 15 volumes of his speeches were ultimately published during the course of his lifetime. So all of those things came together. And the events of 1895, bringing Chauncey Depew to give the opening address at the New York State Bar Association, just the fact that he would be delivering the opening address, made newspaper stories across the country.
Dave Miranda:
So he comes to the New York State Bar Association for the annual meeting. The president at the time defers to Chauncey Depew, to give the keynote speech. And Chauncey Depew talks about this crisis, and what the Bar's role can be in trying to alleviate it.
Hank Greenberg:
Depew gave a speech that was reported on across the country, the following day. Keep in mind, he is one of the most prominent Republicans in the country, and he is talking at least obliquely about Grover Cleveland and his administration, which was a Democratic administration. Depew's speech, looking back on it, it's not only, save some of the biases of the 19th century, one of the most extraordinary orations in New York State Bar had ever heard, extraordinary on many levels. One, in terms of its oratory and its eloquence. Even from the printed text you see that. But the message he delivered was pure pacifism. This is coming from one of the leaders of the business community. They were not swept up in the war craze, although the rest of the country was. Wall Street descended into a near panic. Corporate lawyers in particular did not view war with Great Britain over a boundary dispute in South America as good for their clients.
International lawyers debated with the Cleveland administration about whether in fact there was a violation of the Monroe Doctrine. And Chauncey Depew gets before the State Bar Association, and in the course of his speech, identifies a multitude of reasons why war is in general bad, and in particular absurd, in the context of the dispute in Venezuela. First of all, he recites world history, from Genghis Khan, to Attila the Hun, to Julius Caesar, to Napoleon, and says, "Dictators exploit war to destroy democracy." And of course, he describes the horrors, and the loss of life, and bloodshed, and devastation that America had experienced just a few decades, earlier during the Civil War, still fresh in the minds of people like Depew and many of the people in his audience. And of course, he described the economic demands it would make on the country. So for all of those reasons, Depew condemned the idea of war, condemned violently politicians who exploit war to achieve their political purposes, a backhanded slap at Congress and the Cleveland administration. And then, he proposes a solution.
Dave Miranda:
And the solution is, as lawyers are often want to have some sort of court, where the dispute can be discussed with arguments by both sides, and decided by an impartial panel.
Hank Greenberg:
Keeping in mind, this is one of the most serious people in America, the leader of one of the largest corporations in America, and his cure for war is a world court. Nations could use law, judges and lawyers and resolve disputes that might otherwise devolve into bloodshed, by having those disputes brought before an international tribunal, that would apply the rule of law, and decide those disputes, which would be recognized by the countries that were locked horns.
Dave Miranda:
And the New York State Bar Association hears his speech, is inspired by it, and forms a committee to actually go through the process of what it would take to create this type of world court.
Hank Greenberg:
Correct. The Bar Association did what bar associations did. It formed a committee. But this was not just any committee. It was the bluest blue ribbon committee you could possibly imagine. Not just past, present and future Bar Association presidents on it. And by the way, they all had vast experience in government. Virtually everyone on this 11 person committee had been in government, had held office, or were deeply steeped in public policy. So these were political players, with deep connections in the Cleveland administration, and state government, and across the world.
Furthermore, they had vast experience in terms of foreign policy, in international relations. The primary outside advisor to the committee was a professor at Columbia, a former State Department veteran, who was the nation's leading expert on international arbitration. Members of the committee as well, as the primary author of the report the committee produced, was a former personal secretary to a Secretary of State, William Seward, and himself a State Department veteran. So this was the dream team of international law expertise, domestic American politics, government experience, and intellectual acuity. And the Association tasked them, double quick, to produce a report that gave life, that put flesh on the bones of Depew's proposal of creating an international court.
Dave Miranda:
And they worked very quickly. Within a matter of a few months, they came up with a report and recommendation, that was then brought back to the association, that was considered and approved. And then, they had this report and recommendation, and they also had their old friend, President Grover Cleveland, who was a former Vice President, and served on the executive committee of the Bar Association. So there was a connection, a direct connection to the White House. And what I found so remarkable in your article, was that they approved the report and recommendation, and within a matter of five days, had an audience with the President of the United States,
Hank Greenberg:
A three member delegation of the committee, along with the President of State Bar, traveled to Washington DC and went to the White House. And on April 21, at 3:30 PM, had a meeting with President Grover Cleveland, that lasted nearly an hour. They actually politely tried to leave earlier, and Cleveland asked them to sit down, and continued the conversation. It's extraordinary.
Dave Miranda:
But they were old friends, presumably, right? Because he had served on our executive committee a few years before. So he had this direct line, where he was happy to see his brethren from New York state.
Hank Greenberg:
And he said so. He said he was delighted that his fellow members of the bar and the New York State Bar Association had produced this recommendation. And just one quick footnote, in terms of his own service on the State Bar, when Cleveland was governor of New York before becoming president, he actually presided over an annual meeting of the State Bar Association, which gives you some indication that that period, at least in New York history, of the connection between the Bar and state government.
Dave Miranda:
So at the time, as you indicated, there was some concern over whether we might go to war over this, to protect our interests, the Monroe Doctrine. And there was... I'm going to say the President was looking for a way to address this fairly. And what he said to the Bar Association representatives that presented to him, he said, "You are the first ones that have a plan. You have a plan." And the Bar Association presented the plan to him. And maybe you can give us a little detail about what precisely the plan was, that the Bar Association proposed.
Hank Greenberg:
David, that's very insightful. Cleveland was looking for a way to avoid war, and didn't know how. And the State Bar just came to Washington, and put on his table a complex, sophisticated plan that was the solution. International arbitration, a tribunal, that would sit in judgment of the border dispute, submit that claim to the judges of this international court, and arbitrate their differences. And both Great Britain and the United States would agree to accept the outcome of that resolution. As the State Bar delegation was leaving, Cleveland not only thanked them, but winked and nodded aggressively. And the press soon reported on how taken he was by the State Bar Association proposal. And in a matter of days, he instantaneously became a proponent of arbitrating through a court like tribunal, the dispute in Venezuela.
Dave Miranda:
And Great Britain agreed as well. So they agreed to create this new decision making body, over this dispute, two representatives selected by the United States, two selected by Great Britain. And then, who was the tiebreaker?
Hank Greenberg:
Well, it turns out the actual tribunal that was created came from Russia. But it was this five person body. Cleveland announced to the world in November, he was elated that he had resolved the issue, that they were going to submit it to the tribunal. And ultimately, a few years later, the tribunal issued its decision, accepted by Great Britain, the United States. Essentially accepting most of Great Britain's claims, although a few points raised by Venezuela was also adopted.
Dave Miranda:
So springboarding off of that success, the Hague Peace Conference, talked about some method of kind of formalizing this process for other disputes, not just the US and Great Britain, but for countries around the world. And again, the New York State Bar Association's report and recommendation played a crucial role at the Hague Peace Conference in 1899.
Hank Greenberg:
Hard to believe, but that is exactly right. In 1898, the Czar announces to the world that the world's leaders, 26 nations, would come together and discuss ways of reducing arms and resolving disputes, short of war. They needed a plan. The president at the time was William McKinley. He told his delegates to the Hague Peace Conference to embrace and advocate for what was, for all intents and purposes, the State Bar Association proposal.
The actual proposal that was put on the table by the state bar was as many as nine nations would constitute this world court. Each judge on the court would be selected by the high court of the nation from which they came. They would be open permanently. They would have a full-time staff. Jurisdiction would be established by treaties between those countries that submitted their disputes. And America's commissioners advocated for that at the Peace Conference. Ultimately, there was some resistance, most notably by Germany, that didn't accept the idea of obligatory arbitration. They were willing voluntarily, in appropriate cases, to submit a dispute between nations to this body, but wouldn't in every instance agree to that. For all intents and purposes, that voluntary proposal was embraced by the Hague Peace Conference, and recommended, that there be a World court. And that court was soon thereafter established. It's known as the Permanent Court of Arbitration. It sits in the Hague to this day. And the idea for it came from the New York State Bar Association.
Dave Miranda:
And it remains active. It's still resolving disputes between countries. Obviously, it doesn't resolve every dispute. We've had two world wars, since that time. So it's been productive, and it remains productive. Mostly with border disputes, or with other issues as well?
Hank Greenberg:
All manner of disputes between countries. The PCA, that's an acronym for it, has been in business since it was founded. It sits in the Peace Palace at the Hague, still very active, still a vital force for resolving international disputes. What strikes me is that the dreams of the leaders of the Bar in 1896, and then in 1899. You're exactly right, those dreams, the vision, looking back on it from today, seems utopian. It died, it was shattered. The illusions were shattered by World War I, and World War II, and countless other wars in the 20th century. That makes it, looking back on time, as how could they have thought that nations would resolve their disputes through world courts, rather than force of arms.
But I think the thing that lingers with us today, what's most impressive about their achievement that I think current generation of bar leaders do well to emulate, is the spirit and purpose that inspired what they did, the high mindedness, the altruism, and the willingness to think big, and act not just on a local scale, or a state scale, or a national scale, but to make their influence felt around the world.
Dave Miranda:
I'm going to say, from a Bar Association's perspective, I found your article to be both inspiring, and also disappointing. In that, inspired by the greatness that the Association has had, its connection with, in this case, two presidents. And disappointing, in that perhaps we don't have that same level of connection to national and international leaders. In recent years, certainly we've taken a strong stand, regarding the war in the Ukraine and right. And we've prepared reports, regarding those atrocities, and have in fact supported them nationally, at the American Bar Association, shedding light on many important issues. But I would say from your article, it seems as though perhaps there's a message that you'd like to convey, to not just leaders in the State Bar, but to the legal profession.
Hank Greenberg:
I think there are a few messages. One interesting thing, not just in the 19th century, but through much of the 20th century... And we have today a very vital and robust international law section that does really extraordinary and important work. But the Bar as a whole, the entire Bar, care deeply about international law issues. Routinely, at annual meetings, ambassadors, world leaders, secretaries of state of the United States would come and speak at state bar annual meetings. We've had two former presidents who are actually secretaries of state. Charles Evans Hughes and Elihu Root. Joseph Choate was an ambassador to the Court of St. James. And that extended through the '50s, well into the 20th century, with every annual meeting bringing in people from around the world. So the Association, as a whole, thought globally, and thought of itself as capable of acting on a global stage.
I think the other message that sort of comes out of this is these people were laser focused on solving real world problems, not abstract problems. They were trying to solve, and resolve, and prevent a war. And the other thing they understood by thinking big, is assembling committees that were the best and the brightest, wherever they could find them. Even if they weren't tremendously active in the state bar, drawing the smartest people they could to produce reports, with not just good ideas, but state-of-the-art, cutting edge ideas.
And then they were willing to flex their muscle, and assert their influence powerfully and persuasively, and in a multitude of ways. One thing we didn't talk about, which is so extraordinary about how they rolled out this report, is one of the things the State Bar did as it was producing its recommendations, was write letters to every state bar association in the country, asking them to support the State Bar's position, and help them lobby with the State Bar, the President and Congress. And across the nation, 20 bar associations instantaneously wrote letters back to the State Bar, saying they would create their own committees, and do what they could to help.
So, what's impressive is not just the substantive of wisdom and insight that produced the report, but the political acumen and judgment to figure out how to sell the recommendations and the report, and the political heft and influence to get a meeting at the White House, and help this policymaker solve his problem. He didn't want to go to war, Grover Cleveland. The President was assisted by the State Bar Association. So to me, the message for future leaders could not be clearer. Think big, act big, and the world is your stage.
Dave Miranda:
Well, Hank Greenberg, I want to thank you for sharing your insights about what's been called the New York State Bar Association's noblest act. Thank you for the research that you've done on this article, which is terribly impressive, and for the work that you continue to do regarding the history of the New York State Bar Association, the tremendous history that the Bar Association has. We talked about its birth, and the interesting way that it was formed in 1876. And now, a few short years later, it's a player in international affairs. And I think it's important, this Bar Association at 1 Elk Street has a tremendous history. And Hank, of course, you are both the curator of that, and a part of it. So I want to thank you again, for being with us, on this historical discussion.
Hank Greenberg:
It's a pleasure and a privilege. Thank you, David. Thank you for your service, past and present, to the Bar.
Dave Miranda:
This has been Miranda Warnings, a New York State Bar Association podcast. You have the right to subscribe, rate, and review.