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Where we share our weekly news debriefs and discussions with industry experts. These are lo-fi recordings aimed at giving our readers more opportunities to engage with our analysis and a view into some of the conversations that shape it.
Martin: This week's show is
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Kevin: Will Johnson joining us from Guide.
Uh, Will, welcome to the show on a day
where, uh, you have some fun and exciting
news that you announced this morning,
um, the acquisition of We Know Medicare.
Uh, excited to chat with you about
that brokerage space more broadly.
I thought I might start, um,
with this question about...
So read the press release this morning.
Looks like We Know Medicare itself was on
an acquisition spree recently, growing 4X,
I think, over the last eight months, which
sounds like wild growth, so, um, awesome
for them, awesome for you guys, primarily
via the acquisitions of other agencies.
And you noted in the press release
that you expect Guide and We
Know Medicare to, to, for that
pace to continue of that growth.
You've also acquired two other
practices in the last two months.
Sounds like a ton of growth going on.
I, I'd be curious to hear kind
of how are you thinking about
that growth structurally?
What's going on that's leading to, to
growing so quickly behind the scenes?
Will: Yeah.
So first off, thanks for having me, guys.
Uh, longtime fan of HealthTech Nerds.
Kevin, I think I was telling you when
we, we connected previously, I might
have been a reader since newsletter one.
Uh, I, I don't know how many guests can
claim that, but, uh, long- longtime fan.
Nice to be on the, uh, on the show.
Uh, so a couple things.
I mean, one, as you mentioned,
uh, Mike and the team at We Know
Medicare are now a part of Guide.
They have grown rapidly through
acquisition, and I think one of the
things that gets us most excited is
both being able to help fuel that
model but also really drive organic
growth on a post-acquisition basis
of the partners that they acquire
into their own kind of ecosystem.
And so, you know, We Know
Medicare itself is a relatively
sizable agency to begin with.
We think there's a lot of opportunity
through the Guide platform, uh, and AI
enablement to help them drive organic
growth, superior customer experience,
and ultimately, you know, help those
Medicare beneficiaries that they serve
today get into the right product, uh,
a- and ultimately help their teams
service more of those consumers at a
scale that right now, you know, they
might argue is, is kind of limited
from a capacity perspective, um, and
also deliver white glove customer
service against a backdrop of, of
even more capacity on a service basis.
So we're excited about those dynamics,
uh, and the ability to partner with
Mike and his team, who, you know, have
gone through an acquisition before,
and I think we're humbled to kind of
be the partner of choice for somebody
that's a relatively informed seller.
Kevin: We know Medicare mentioned
in, like, being ex-- in the press
release being really excited
about the AI transformation.
They talked about adding
rocket fuel to the growth.
We were talking earlier offline a little
bit about some of the challenges the
industry seems to be having broadly
in digesting and metabolizing AI
into actual sort of, uh, returns.
Um- Yeah ... we have seen the big AI
frontier labs launch consulting arms,
excuse me, for deployed engineers.
Doximity and Health Catalyst are
shutting down significantly today.
Uh, can you describe like what
the, the rocket fuel is that is
a, a, a sort of, um, in, in, in...
for the, the brokerage, uh, rocket?
For sure.
Will: And, and maybe I'll kind of connect
it to something, Kevin, you just asked
me about, which was like, "Oh, wow,
like you guys have done, you know, three
deals in relatively quick succession.
How do you guys handle that from
a, you know, scale perspective?"
And I think, you know, one of the things
that we decided early on was we really
needed to build a platform or almost an
automation suite, if you will, for the
agency owners that we're partnering with.
And so what we will do is both a
combination of leverage our platform
to drive renewal automation, you
know, cross-sell opportunities,
client service scalability that's
truly horizontally delivered
across every business we work with.
And so, Kevin, that helps to get us
some scale, and then we'll actually
send team members on the ground, which,
you know, come from backgrounds like
Scale AI or, you know, a bane from a
consulting perspective, and either build
automations on site, of course, which
is something that, you know, you've
probably seen lots or read lots about
with respect to kind of our other peer
groups and other industries or verticals.
But we'll also just help the teams, right?
Day-to-day operationally say,
"Hey, look, guys, here's a huge
opportunity that we might be missing."
And so you're just another set of kind of,
you know, eyes and ears on the ground, uh,
in partnership with those organizations.
I, I think there's lots of fair
criticism out there right now around,
you know, look, what are we actually
seeing from a returns perspective with
the AI deployments that, uh, that have
actually gone on outside of CodeGen?
We're already seeing the results
of some of our AI deployments
in these environments.
Uh, you know, won't get into too many
details on the show, but they are real,
and they are quite pronounced, uh,
particularly on the revenue side of the
equation, and even those that are kind
of actively trying to get access in
some way, shape, or form to the guide
platform, either through a partner like a
We Know Medicare or a Benevest or using it
day-to-day in their operating environment
on a more retail basis similar to Avid.
Uh, so for us, I think uniquely, I
think in, in the insurance brokerage
sector, which has been increasingly
well reported on, we are seeing some
of those returns come through already,
even in some cases, thirty to forty-five
days of working with a partner.
And I think the ability for us to take
both a platform and a forward-deployed
approach gives us the opportunity
to perhaps have a little bit more
scalability in the model, uh,
you know, almost out of the gate.
So we're, we're really excited
about that, to say the least.
And I think I would be remiss if I
didn't point out the team that we've
been able to bring on to kind of- Build
the business and go on this journey.
There's a lot of folks with healthcare
insurance and fintech in their DNA, and
also admittedly private equity, right?
So you have a nice combination of those
that come from the Oscars, the Stripes,
uh, of the world, et cetera, and those
that come from the Alpines, the Vistas,
uh, you know, Francisco-backed, uh,
platforms that are ultimately delivering
some of the domain and almost functional
and operating rigor that you would need
in order to run these businesses well.
And so I think we kind of have
a nice, unique combination of,
you know, industry expertise.
My co-founder, of course, was formerly
EVP at Spark, now, of, of course,
our COO, and those that have also
understood the M&A motion and the
domain expertise and nuances that,
that are required to execute that well.
Kevin: Well, you and I have talked
before about the, the journey the
broker market has been on over the
last several years from a reputation
perspective as MA has kind of shifted
writ large, and there's been questions
of, of the role brokers are playing
in acquiring members and the lifetime
value and churn and yada, yada, yada.
Totally.
It seems like we're at an interesting
point in time where we are now starting
to hear more on the, on the opposite
side of that pendulum of the strategic
value that a, a well-positioned broker
can play in the market with the trust
that they can build with a member and
how they can drive that lifetime value.
I, I'd be curious what you're, you're
hearing on the ground talking to these
brokerages about that strategic value,
about what the winning value prop is.
And I'd be curious how, how Guide plays in
that conversation with payers potentially.
Like, we're seeing Scan out doing some
interesting stuff with brokerages.
Totally.
How are you thinking about
conversations with payers, those
strategic relationships, and how
that evolves over time in the space?
Will: Yeah.
I think first, you know, you've got to
give Sachin and folks like Michael Blay
a lot of credit for, for what they're
trying to do with respect to industry
and kind of sector transformation.
Um, so a real shout-out to really
that entire leadership team and
organization for, I think, pushing that.
I think for us, the thing that's
been most exciting is actually how
many of the partners we're working
with are already doing some of
these things naturally already.
So as a good example, you know, and
I think you have to give a lot of
credit to Garrick and his team in Avid.
One of the things that we saw even
early on that was a huge light bulb
moment for us is even how they,
they position themselves as a real
advisor, uh, or a guide, hence the
name of our business, to the members.
Like, they are even calling
themselves that oftentimes, right?
When they're answering the phone,
"Look, we're, we're really a more
comprehensive advisor for you.
And yes, we're gonna help you pick the
right product for your needs, but when
you have a pharmaceutical issue, if you
can't h- you know, find a physician,
like, call us and we'll help you do that."
So in many respects, we're partnering
with those that I think already have
what we would call both mission and
deep commercial alignment with respect
to what we're trying to accomplish.
And so, you know, I think the thing
where we've been fairly fortunate on
is not only our own team construction,
but if you look at our partners as an
extension of that team, and we really
feel that way about them, many of these
folks already feel and are kind of
conducting business in that vein already.
You know, when I, when I was
first starting the business,
you know, I was working with
our, uh, now head of marketing.
She was working with us fractionally,
and I, I used to joke that if I was
gonna write an article to, you know,
start the company, I'd call it In
Defense of the Broker, because I think
one of the unfortunate things about
the industry today is we tend to only
read the stories about the bad actors.
We never really read or see published
the stories of the good ones.
And so a big part of what I think Guide
is trying to achieve is both, you know,
deep and highly integrated partnerships
with those good actors in the business,
and then ultimately give them the tools
technologically, operationally, and from
a partnership perspective, you know,
Kevin, as you mentioned, to help to
fuel their model that again is already
aligned from a mission and kind of
commercial vision perspective with ours.
Uh, you know, I think with
respect to where carriers are,
it's a unique point in time.
You know, I think the last kind
of quarterly vintage from all the
carriers was pretty favorable,
so I think that was great to see.
But I think, you know, broadly between
what you're seeing from the rate increases
on a rate reimbursement perspective, uh,
for Medicare and just what's going on, you
know, for the last, let's look at twel-
like on a trailing 12 months basis with
our own P&Ls, it's a unique point in time
where I think everyone is asking, "How can
we work together to solve these issues?"
And, you know, we are simply a party
that is raising their hand and being
very vocal about the opportunity to
wanting to lean in and support them.
How that manifests, I think, is
gonna be different with every
partner, as you can appreciate.
I think Scan has been the most kind of
front-footed about what that looks like
and, you know, kind of how to play.
Um, but nonetheless, I think you've
gotta give a lot of credit to, you know,
the carriers that are trying to look
for ways to both support these members
but kind of beyond just enrollment.
That's obviously happening.
We'll be a part of that a- as will others.
Kevin: I'm curious to hear, you
know, we had the folks from, uh,
Bailey & Company on a couple weeks ago.
They had just gotten back- Big
fan ... yeah, Medicarians, and they
talked about this as an emerging area
of interest in the, among the, the sort
of middle market private equity world.
You are, you know, sort of going out,
knocking on doors, meeting brokers.
I'm curious what the conversation
looks like when you're approaching a
partner and what, uh, what that, the
dynamics of that conversation look like.
Will: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the
things that was interesting about our,
you know, our space is, one, this was
not like a fly-by-night idea for me.
I'd been trying to do some variation of
Guide for about six years, and, you know,
I think what's been most interesting is
one of the biggest headwinds we thought
we would face is this notion that the
industry is fairly transacted, right?
I think it's like RIAs are, you
know, the only industry that is more
transacted than brokerage right now,
and so there's a lot of competition.
I think what has been interesting and
probably humbling for us is we try
to come in with a different model.
You know, I think historically, and even
when I was doing research on this, you
know, in the six years leading up to,
to going this direction, many of these
owners typically when they sold had kind
of run into three distinct challenges.
One is they never really got much in the
form of resources post, uh, transaction.
Two, to varying degrees, the team
was, uh, reorganized, you know, into
a different structure not so long
after the business was acquired.
And then three, they had like
even more administrative, uh,
challenges because they just
have more reporting requirements.
And so they were kind of like after
the two-week period of elation subsided
after the check hit, I realized I just
had these three kind of really gnarly
and thorny issues that I was dealing
with for the rest of my commercial life,
unless I just chose to exit the business.
And so what we kinda did is said,
"Hey, look, what if we could kind of
be door number three for the owner?"
All right, door number one being
sell to kind of what you know exists.
Door number two being kinda
bootstrap your own purchase of
software solutions, et cetera.
Or door number three, which is
what if you could present an
opportunity for the partner to kind
of buy in to a different model?
One that not only provides a platform,
but provides a team of operators who
came from the domain, have a lot of
empathy for the challenges these agency
owners go through, and really understand
that they are the entry point to the
system for many of these consumers and
even small to medium employers and say,
"Look, let's go in arm in arm together.
Let's find a, you know, M&A structure
that's highly aligned with respect to our
own economic incentives, and then just
be relentlessly focused on deep kind of
member experience, uh, solutioning for
any of the challenges that the members
ultimately experience, the client in the
case of our partner, and also be a deeper
strategic partnership to the carrier."
And I think if we can look at this
system as something that is more,
you know, interconnected from a value
chain perspective versus, you know,
disparate, you start to see much more
productive conversations, uh, emerge,
and ultimately, I think it's gonna
manifest in returns across the ecosystem.
So for us, we, we come very much
front-footed on this notion that,
hey, we're kind of a different model.
You know, I, I believe quite firmly that
we've got the best team in the market.
Uh, and if nothing else, you know, my
number one job is making sure that I put
the best team on the field I possibly
can, not just for our investors and our
other employees, right, I think it's a
duty to them as well, but for the partner.
You know, in many ways, access to talent
is a big part of the value proposition
for these agency owners, and so, you
know, I think for us to come with kind of
that team, an AI platform that actually
solves their day-to-day problems,
which we were very much focused on,
and then three of those that are like,
"Look, we're all in this with you.
We're not doing a thousand transactions.
We're gonna do some fraction of that,
so you're gonna get a lot of our time."
Uh, and we're looking for owner partners
that are, you know, kind of long-term
in orientation as a part of that.
So, you know, if we take Mike as
an example, right, uh, from We Know
Medicare, he's in his early thirties.
You know, Garrick, not so
different on an age bracket basis.
Joe and Regina, very much ten years of,
of, of, of work ambition in them for sure.
And then if you look at the other
deals that will be announced later
this year, the owner profiles
are not so dissimilar in nature.
So I think you've got this interesting
combination of what I believe is a truly
world-class team, an AI platform that's
already showing demonstrable changes
In the economic, operational, and kind
of NPS of these businesses and for
the clients, and then an owner profile
and even deal structure that is really
orienting these folks around long-term
partnership with us, we believe is a
recipe for comparative and differentiated
advantage in the space and ultimately
long-term returns for all parties,
including the carriers, which we're
very intentional about trying to foster.
Kevin: Well, one of the interesting
sentences in the press release to
me was that, um, uh, you're, you're
helping provide guidance across
insurance, health, and wealth
decisions, which I, I traditionally
have thought of guide as, you know,
Medicare Advantage brokerage type play.
Uh, can you, can you expand on
the groups that you're acquiring?
What do they...
Go a click deeper in what they look like.
How many employees do they have?
Who, who are they serving?
And what- Yeah ... decisions...
When you say insurance, health,
and wealth, like, what does that...
What does their book
of business look like?
And are you doing all of it?
Are you doing just a slice of it?
How does that play out?
Will: Yeah.
So, I mean, maybe we'll just start
with, you know, what do I think is
a is a different way to think about
how to serve these populations rather
than talking about even our partners.
But if you think about some of
their challenges, it is not just
unique to insurance product access.
Right.
This notion of picking the right insurance
product, you know, going down the
appropriate and correct kind of healthcare
journey and having an experience that
is, you know, truly optimized for their
unique needs, and then ultimately making
sure that from a wealth and kind of
financial health perspective, they are
able to access these services, which
oftentimes is, is sometimes a financial
issue more so than anything else,
are all kind of connected in nature.
And so for us, we kind of put
ourselves in the shoes of the consumer.
Wow, it would be really great to have
a partner to help me pick my plan, help
me navigate this ridiculous healthcare
maze that we have in the United States.
God love it.
And then ult- ultimately manage kind
of the financial health of, of my own
personal P&L to make sure that I am
not only protecting my downside, right,
which is largely what insurance is for,
but also managing some of the upside.
And so, you know, when I, when I
started thinking about what the
right business kind of vision was, it
was much more about kind of dealing
with these highly c- interconnected
issues for the consumer, right?
So just putting yourself in a
kind of customer-centric lens,
that's kinda what we landed on.
Most of the agencies today are
just doing one product line, right?
I mean, they're just selling
Medicare Advantage, et cetera.
So a big part of, of the offering
and ambition is to say, "Hey,
could we help you do something
just beyond Medicare Advantage?"
I think there's a unique point in
time opportunity to do this because
I firmly believe that we're going
through really a broader what I call
unbundling of insurance products.
If you think about Medicare Advantage
as the tip of the spear for this issue.
You know, over the years, I think the
carriers Very fairly so, had quite rich
benefits, uh, within the base major
medical product and Medicare Advantage
product they offered, largely because
they were able to do so economically.
I think now what we're kinda seeing is
a, you know, rationalization of what
is an appropriate spend on Medicare.
I think Chris Clump and the
broader organization are
doing a great job with this.
You've really gotta give them credit for
trying to create stability in the market.
And what I think that does is
bring everybody back to a place
where the major medical product
is for major medical expenses.
And then beyond that are things on top
of that, you then get to a place where
consumerism and more individualization
of choice of product ultimately rounds
out the rest of that coverage portfolio.
And so I think in particular in Medicare,
it's a nice entry point for, I think,
that vision because of what is going on
in the market, and very bluntly, we just
have a lot of experience in that space.
Uh, you know, shout out to Sam
in particular, who has a lot
of domain expertise here and
a large network, et cetera.
Um, but if you think about, you know,
what could happen with that unbundling,
I think you're gonna see consumers need
more comprehensive and broader portfolio
guidance within insurance, but then that
ultimately cascades into other elements of
their life that we will ultimately touch
as well in the not-so-distant future.
Kevin: This was a hugely helpful overview.
I'm looking at my notes.
It is also, uh, coming up to me.
You mentioned six years, but the official
one-year anniversary of, of Guide-
Yeah ... is tomorrow, so happy- Tomorrow
... happy almost birthday to Guide.
Um- Thank you ... where, where
can folks get in touch if
they, they wanna learn more?
Will: Yeah, I mean, look, I would always
say just reach out to me directly.
I mean, you can always of course
visit the website at guidehealth.ai.
But look, I think we, we love to hear
from anybody that's passionate about the
space or, you know, believes we could
help them in some capacity, so feel free
to reach out to me, will@guidehealth.ai,
or use any of our social channels across,
you know, X, LinkedIn, or otherwise
to, uh, send us a DM and, you know,
we'll get back to them immediately.
Kevin: Thanks so much for
your time today, Will.
Good seeing you.
Thanks, guys.
Will: Love being on the show.
Yeah.
Kevin: See ya.