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The Dallas Dirt podcast with Candy Evans takes you inside the real estate news stories you’ll find daily on CandysDirt.com and beyond, giving you more insight, juicier details, and the inside scoop from one of Dallas’ most well-connected real estate personalities.
Speaker: I'm Candy Evans,
and this is Dallas Dirt.
Today, I'm so excited to have
some out of towners on the show.
I've got Elizabeth Beck, who's
District 9 Fort Worth City Council
and none other than Wes Hoblet,
who's the managing director of
the Fort Worth Master Plan office.
So we brought in some out of towners,
but they're really not out of
towners, I'm totally kidding you.
And by the way, do you know that
CandysDirt because of Fort Worth?
Speaker 2: I didn't know that.
Yes.
Speaker: It was going to be Dallas
Dirt and a very enterprising
person said to me, you're going
to really turn off Fort Worth.
I said, okay, because I didn't know that.
So we named it Candy Dirt to encompass
all because we do cover your city
a lot and we can, we'll continue
to cause I think it's fabulous.
So welcome.
Thank you.
We appreciate the inclusion.
Oh, absolutely.
And I think one of the greatest
things that we've ever done together.
Is DFW airport.
And I think that the collaboration
of the minds and the working
together, the two cities can
really create some great momentum.
I agree.
Yes.
So anyhow welcome.
I'm gonna let you guys introduce
yourselves briefly and then
we are gonna talk real estate.
first?
Sure.
So,
Speaker 3: Elizabeth Beck, I have
the honor of serving District 9
on the Fort Worth City Council.
My day job, I am Vice President of
Business Alliance at, , the Baker Firm,
, Fidelity National Title, uh, Fee Office.
And I have two . Two children that I
raised in Fort Worth, 14 and 16, and
a three legged dog and a three legged
cat that I also raised with them.
I'm a lawyer by trade, before that I was
a transportation planner at the Council of
Government, so I have a master's in city
and regional planning, and before that I
was a sergeant in the United States Army.
Speaker: Whoa!
We are impressed.
Well, thank you.
You've got some good credentials
there to really arm you for this job.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Thank you.
And Wes, you're with MasterPlan
as in Dallas Cothram's MasterPlan.
I love Dallas
Speaker 2: by the way.
Yes.
I'm glad you do.
Not a lot of people do.
Oh, no.
Speaker: No.
He gets away with murder
with me because I adore him.
Yes.
He's
Speaker 2: kind of a, I think his
term is he's charming in small
doses is what he likes to say.
So yeah, but I'm Wes Alwood.
I live in Fort Worth.
I serve under Elizabeth Beck at the
zoning, as a zoning commissioner.
And so I actually went to TCU a
long time ago and so they decided
finally to open up a Fort Worth
office and I was the perfect choice.
So they chose me.
Speaker: Now your market, first of
all, your city was just named more
fun than Austin in the United States.
Like it's like people are really
starting to look at Fort Worth,
which we've always kind of known.
I mean, I remember going for the
real estate conferences there and
I just said, my blood pressure
goes down when I'm in Fort Worth.
I mean, it's just, it's not the traffic.
It's not the craziness.
It's just a, an easier feel.
I like it.
I like it.
I love it as a matter of fact.
And I think you've got
great real estate there too.
And you've got a lot of historical homes,
which is one of my favorite things.
But I know your market, your real
estate and development market is really
booming and you guys have added people.
How did you do that?
We lost people in Dallas,
but you've added people.
Tell me what you're doing right there.
Speaker 3: Well, Fort Worth, we gain
about 20,000 new residents a year,
and so that's a big jump annually.
And it's our job on council and
with city staff to make sure
that we're out in front of that.
And so we try to be as responsive
and helpful as possible through the
development process We've got a really
great council right now And that is
really supportive of that growth and
making sure that we do it in a way that
benefits both business and our residents
Speaker: And you had a great mayor too.
We do.
Yeah.
You do.
And so you have, I'm sure your permit
office, I'm going to be nice here, your
permit office doesn't make people wait
for 10 years to get permits through.
So what I've heard is the developers like
to go to Fort Worth because they get stuff
done probably in the same amount of time.
They can build it when they're still
waiting for their permit here in Dallas.
Well,
Speaker 3: I will candidly
admit that we have some work
to do as most large cities do.
The permitting process is not perfect
as Wes will tell you, but we are working
really hard to make sure that we are
responsive and we are pushing those
permits through at a reasonable pace.
That's great.
Speaker: So tell me about
your permitting office.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, I mean, just compared
to Dallas, it's much better.
In Dallas I had to get to
the city before it, 6 a.
m.
to where they open it.
And I'd wait outside for hours.
I was not the first person
there, uh, to do that either.
And so you don't have to
do that in Fort Worth.
You can call and they'll answer the
phone, talk to you, work through the
process, that's, it's underrated.
You think that should be the basis of
the service, but that is an underrated
trait that you see in cities now.
Speaker: Excuse me if I go
knock my head against the wall.
I mean, it's such basic stuff.
I'm sorry to interrupt you.
And that's kind of,
Speaker 2: Going back to what you
were saying about Fort Worth is,
it's just your heart rate goes
down, blood pressure goes down.
You can talk to somebody.
And, just, the relationships, it's
all about relationships at the end of
the day with city staff and developers.
And if you have a healthy
relationship that really helps.
And so, that's one of the things
that we've seen is, you still
have to work through the process.
There's, as Elizabeth stated,
there's some work to be done,
but it is a smoother process.
So
Speaker: where are the bumps
in your process, do you think?
Speaker 2: Uh, really just the time
that people think they can get it done.
Usually on the developer side.
They assume it can be
done in two, three weeks.
It's really, four to eight
weeks, uh, typically, so they
kind of have to build that in.
That's something that we see is, of course
they, they have the capital, they have
the site picked out, they're ready with
the plans and they're, they're eager
to open up and start their business and
they just don't really build in that
time as much as they probably should.
So we kind of help them tell
them that's going to happen.
But at
Speaker: least you're answering the phone.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's half the battle.
Speaker: Now you said that
you went to your TCU graduate.
Correct.
Yes.
So you've spent a lot of time there.
Although you're born in Dallas, right?
Speaker 2: Born in Lubbock, actually.
In Lubbock.
So I'm more, more akin
to the, to West Texas.
West Texas.
Then, uh, which is where the
West begins is where Florida is.
Absolutely.
So that's right.
Speaker: Now, so Fort Worth was the
fastest growing city in 2022, right?
But you lost a little bit in 2023.
You're still growing, though.
Yeah.
Oh, sure.
Exactly.
And you had about, as you said,
20,000 citizens in one year.
Now, are you having trouble
finding places for them to live?
Yes.
Speaker 3: Yes.
What we know is that rents are outpacing
the rate at which they're increasing
or definitely outpacing a lot of our
comparative cities throughout the nation.
And it's because we don't have
enough, we don't have enough product.
And so with 20,000 people every
year, that's 20,000 homes.
And one of the things I like to say is
homes are where the jobs go at night.
That's not my quote.
I got it from a book from
someone who's much smarter than
me, but it made so much sense.
Yeah.
And so we are trying to support that as
much as we can and we do that through
the development process, making sure that
whether it's single family or mixed use,
multifamily, that we're supporting that
and getting that across the finish line
so that we have a place for those jobs to
go at night in an affordable place so that
everyone can enjoy the city of Fort Worth.
Speaker: Affordability is a real
challenge now because it's almost like
this thing, this ingredient of we want
growth, you want the 20,000 year, we'd
love it in Dallas, let me tell you.
But if it, with growth comes this
problem of not enough housing
and prices going up, correct?
So what can we do to temper
that or do we want to temper it?
Do we just let it play out?
Speaker 3: Well, I don't think
we, I think we want to temper it
because what we don't want to do
is price people out of Fort Worth.
We don't want our teachers, our nurses,
the people that keep our city running.
We want them to be able to
enjoy Fort Worth, right.
As much as we all, you, those of
us sitting here enjoy Fort Worth.
And so we have to make sure that we are
building at a pace that is accommodates
that because if not, then like you
said, prices go up and they're forced
to move outward or we're forced to
build farther and farther outward.
And so, it is our job and council
has been really mindful of it.
We've had several studies to help
us really understand the nature of
what we're dealing with here in the
city so that we can best address it.
Speaker: And so what is the product
that These newcomers want most, do they
want apartments, do they want mixed use,
or do they want single family homes?
Speaker 3: So I think
you'd have to talk to them.
And what's really great about the
city of Fort Worth is that whatever
you're looking for, we can provide it.
If you want that suburban feel,
we have those suburban type
developments within the city.
If you want an old historic home,
I'd love to have you in District 9.
We have lots of those there.
Yeah if you want mixed use and
walkable, we have that in the
near south side and on West 7th.
And so, we are making sure that we have
a variety of housing options because we
understand that people have a variety
of needs that they're looking for.
Right.
Speaker: Fort Worth is located
in five counties, right?
And you're spread out because
you annexed a lot of land early.
So you still have room to grow.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
So you don't have problems
looking for the land?
Speaker 3: No.
No problems looking for the land.
And I think there's more to come as we
see a lot of those large ranches on the
periphery of Fort Worth start to develop.
They're going to sell.
Kind of like they
Speaker: did in Dallas,
but then, or more in Plano.
Actually more in Plano.
Sure.
Going up 75.
Yeah.
75 is where it was all ranch land.
Exactly.
At that time.
So that's going to come.
And where is the most area
that's left to develop?
Are you thinking or are you seeing?
Speaker 2: Probably West and South.
West and South.
That would be the two primarily.
Yeah.
North has been built out a lot.
District 7, District 10, kind of
up, uh, 35 West is very developed
out, a lot of single family homes
there, which, a lot of people moved,
I guess, in the last five, 10 years.
My family moves up there as well.
So my family, they chose to live up there.
So, it's a lot of housing and,
pretty new and nice and affordable,
so that's why they chose that.
And they
Speaker: chose that.
And do you think your
housing is affordable?
Speaker 2: I mean, I looked at
buying a house in Dallas and
I couldn't find one in Dallas.
I was looking at Farmer's Branch.
So, and I was able to find a very nice,
if not better home in Fort Worth for less
than what I was looking at in Dallas.
Price point?
Uh, under 400.
Under 400?
Yeah.
Yeah,
Speaker: because we write about a
lot of homes in that price range.
Exactly in Fort Worth.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: You know I think Fort
Worth is experiencing what a lot of
other major cities across the country
are in the skyrocketing home prices
But I do think that we are much more
affordable than some of our neighbors.
Speaker: Definitely.
And this these prices came from
not just the cost of land but from
the cost of labor and the cost of
goods which happened during covid,
you know when lumber went up.
I understand it's come down
a little bit But it's still
high and, labor is higher now.
We need to invent a whole new
generation of plumbers and people
in, in, in the building industry
because we need them to build homes.
And when there's a scarcity that,
that drives the price up too.
So.
What do you think we could do to keep
affordability up and hold prices
down for young comers, newcomers,
Speaker 2: for those
looking to buy a home in
Speaker: the 300, 000 range?
Is there anything the city could do?
Speaker 2: That's
Speaker: great.
Well, so one of
Speaker 3: the things that we're
working on and I'm proud to have it
in district nine is a land trust.
And so, as we get that going, it will
allow people to buy into a home at an
affordable rate and then act in perpetuity
so that when they sell that the amount
of profit that they earn is capped so
that the next person buying the home
also can step into an affordable home.
Speaker: How did, that's interesting.
Yeah.
Does the city buy the land?
Speaker 3: So it's a partnership
with several family foundations
and some organizations.
The Southwest, Baptist Theological
Seminary was selling some of their housing
and that's really how that came about.
And so we're really excited.
The Rainwater Foundation has been really a
key partner in making all of that happen.
Speaker: And so you buy home there and
it's more affordable and then when you
sell it, you can't make the huge spike.
Speaker 3: Correct.
Correct.
And so, you own the home.
It's yours.
You can live there as long as you
want, and you can will it to others,
but you can't, I mean, if you go to
sell, unlike on the open market, where
you can get as much as you'd like
for it, because whatever the going
Speaker: rate is, correct.
Speaker 3: But We want to make sure that
the next person stepping into that home,
that it remains affordable forever.
And so we're really excited.
And it should be the largest
land trust in the country.
Speaker: Now, will that, does that
lower the property taxes at all?
Speaker 3: Well, so we
haven't built there yet.
It's still in the design phase.
It's still in the design phase.
Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
I think that's great.
And I often think, and you guys have
the same property tax issues that we
have obviously in the state of Texas
because we don't have an income tax but
what can we do about the property taxes?
I know they've come down a little
bit, but as they've come down,
that insurance costs have gone up.
So you're really at a wash as far as
the homeowners getting some relief.
Speaker 3: I, I saw State Farm is no
longer insuring homes in California.
And several homeowners have had
their premiums increased by 250%.
We are very fortunate that has
not happened here in Fort Worth.
So, we'd like to make sure it
stays that way and we do that
by providing a, a safe space.
city for everybody to live in.
And we struggle the same way that
everyone else does and providing
adequate services to a growing city,
but also keeping your tax rate down.
And so a lot of times that a lot
of, uh, cussing and fussing amongst
those of us on city council, right?
To make sure that we're funding what
needs to be funded by, but also being
incredibly mindful of the dollars
that our taxpayers and trust us with.
Speaker: You all have added new
residents to your tax coffers where
Dallas is actually losing population.
In fact, if we didn't have
births here, we'd be in trouble.
We're shrinking.
People are not staying here.
They're going to the other suburbs
to live, to educate their children
and in many respects to work.
What are some of the problems that
are coming with growth that we may
be able to look forward to someday?
Speaker 2: Well, what I see, mostly at
zoning commission, is upset neighbors.
They, it's a lot of the growth
areas, they are tired of the traffic.
I had to go at a neighborhood
meeting, I guess it was last week.
And it took me 30 minutes to
get to where I needed to go
and then 30 minutes off the
highway to the neighborhood.
So they struggled to get
out of their neighborhood.
There's just a lot of people
that move to the city.
They live there.
They all want the same thing, a nice
home to raise their family in a safe
city, and they're struggling with
the issues of that and more and more
people are coming and they're facing
more traffic, more just everything.
They expect to buy a house out, oh Mo,
I'm out here in the middle of, nowhere.
Don't worry about that.
Then all the other homes come up
around them, and then that kind of
makes the issues compound a little
bit more than they originally
thought when they purchased the home.
Speaker: It's no longer
the quiet neighborhood.
Speaker 2: No, and they want, they
appreciate, single family and they
want some retail associated with that.
But it's more of the single family than
the retail that's coming on board, which
is kind of causing some of the problems.
Speaker: Interesting.
And when you have more density, you
have more policing issues, right?
And more crime issues or.
Speaker 3: I would not necessarily
say that with density comes crime.
I think obviously when you have
statistics, the more people
you put into an area that's
gonna skew those statistics.
But I think with density, one,
I'm a, representing the central
city, I'm a fan of density.
Going through the budget process,
I'm a fan of density because what
I know is that it's less lane
miles that we have to maintain.
It's less sewer miles or water
miles that we have to maintain.
We don't have to build police
or fire stations farther out.
But, there are some issues that come
with density and I think Wes brought
up, transportation was one of them
and we did see rapid growth in the
north and we didn't build for that.
So we paid for that quite literally
in our last bond package where a good
portion of the road dollars went to,
Fix the wrongs of North Fort Worth
where we hadn't invested at a rate in
which we saw growth and development.
And so those are the types of issues
that we really struggle with when
we bring new people into the city of
Fort Worth is making sure that we have
the municipal resources to support
them, to keep them safe and healthy.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Well, that's it.
Northwest Fort Worth is developing
faster than the city can maintain it.
So, that's a tough one.
But, getting back to density,
I know that our council also
likes density very, very much.
It's, it costs less.
Yes.
Per square foot and brings in more tax
revenue than the single family homes.
Right, correct.
Now Dallas is 86 percent
single family homes.
What is Fort Worth?
I actually don't know.
That's a good statistic that we should
have, but you have a lot of neighbor, uh,
you have Single family home neighborhood.
We do have a lot of single
Speaker 3: family home neighborhoods
and we we really started probably in the
early 2000s is when we really started to
focus on density and you saw the urban
village and that's West 7th now and
near Southside and more more residential
development in downtown as well.
Speaker: And that's where I think is key.
And you started a lot of the downtown
Penthouses and condos and I remember
going down to the opening of several
and you started early on building those.
In Dallas we did uptown and then we
did the Ritz Carlton and you guys have
your, uh, what is your equivalent there?
The Ritz?
Oh, you've got the What is the new one?
Downtown.
The Omni.
Yeah.
The Omni.
Over Kempton.
The Omni.
We've had a lot of new hotels
come on in downtown Fort Worth.
And then you've got, I understand,
an Auberge property coming.
Or do you have one?
We do.
You have it.
Yes.
The Auberge
Speaker 3: we've had two big developments.
Yeah.
One of those being the Crescent and
the other one being Bowie House.
And so we were really excited to have
that level of amenity in the city.
And
Speaker 2: another
Crescent's coming online too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then Panther.
Speaker 3: After that.
Once we see Panther Island
start to, to come up.
Develop.
I mean, that's going to
be huge for our community.
I think we're
Speaker 2: voting on that for the height.
We're increasing the height
because it's down on the cliff.
It's about a hundred
feet down from downtown.
And so they're like, we
need to make this higher.
So you can make it even
with downtown town.
Speaker: Yes, exactly.
And get more folks in there.
Well, I hear people in Dallas
talking about going to to
the new Auberge property.
Well, we'd
Speaker 3: love to
Speaker: have them.
Yes, absolutely.
That's How, big the news is
um, the traffic, you said that
the traffic has gotten worse.
What can we do about that?
What can you all do?
What are you thinking of doing about it?
Speaker 2: Well, for me, I live in
southwest Fort Worth and it takes
me 12 minutes to get from my front
door to my front door of my office.
So I hop on Chisholm Trail
Parkway and I'm there in a minute.
But you know, it's hard to really
get anywhere without a car, but
I think we are, I'm focusing on
building a new railway, new rail
station, Tex rail station down in
near Southside, the medical district.
So we
Speaker 3: are bringing Tex rail
a little farther down into Fort
Worth and to the medical district.
So we're really excited about that.
But one thing, we don't have the The
robust transit system like Dallas
does and so that's something that we
definitely need to work on because
as we bring all these people on, what
we know is that we can't build enough
roadway capacity to move them in a way
that keeps their stress level down.
We want you to come to, we want
you to still come to Fort Worth
and have that feeling of your
stress level has gone down.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: I tell people to take the TRE.
Yeah.
I used to do that all the time
when I was living in college at
TCU and then working in Dallas.
I would take the TRE every day.
Yeah.
And it was great.
So I could work on the train,
sleep on the train and I got
dropped off, downtown to downtown.
No problem.
So it was nice.
And it was a set time.
I didn't know.
It wasn't like, okay,
I'll get there 35 minutes.
Well, it's really an hour and a
half because of, an accident here
Speaker: and there.
And that's something that still, I
mean, you can still do today, right?
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's
Speaker 2: why there's still a lot
of, uh, Stars fans in Fort Worth.
So they can get to the
games pretty easily.
And come right down.
Speaker: Perfectly located.
Absolutely.
Now.
So, the neighborhoods that don't want
to see this growth, the NIMBYs, I hate
to use that word, but you got them too?
Of course.
There's, you
Speaker 2: always find someone who
doesn't want to see some sort of
development in their neighborhood.
It doesn't matter what it is.
They want the growth,
Speaker: but they don't want the
Speaker 2: change.
Sure.
I mean, it could be anything.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Change is scary to a lot of folks.
Yeah.
And so, people like their way of life.
They moved out to wherever they
moved because they liked exactly
what was around them at the time.
And so when you talk about changing
that, it can ruffle some feathers.
Right.
But if you just focus on good
quality development and make sure
you're bringing that in, most of the
time it all works out in the wash.
Speaker: I think a lot of it is educating
the consumer too and helping them
understand that this helps their property
value, not hinders it as, as much.
And I think that's something
that, that we try to do.
Yeah.
Well, I think
Speaker 3: everybody loves
their property value to be high
when they go to sell, right?
But not so much when
they get the tax bill.
Yeah.
Speaker: As we talked about.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker: Well, we unfortunately have
to wrap up this wonderful session,
which to me is I entirely too short.
So I want to do this again.
But before we leave, I want you
guys to tell me where you think Fort
Worth will be in the next five years.
Are we still going to be?
Are we going to be the fun
city that's going to surpass
Austin and everyone's talking?
Are you going to overshadow Dallas?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's
the goal, isn't it, right?
You want to be the, it's always Dallas
Fort Worth, not Fort Worth Dallas.
That's right.
So, even though in the way it should
be read, it should be Fort Worth
Dallas if you're reading as that way.
But, uh, yeah, no, I see it
a good future for Fort Worth.
I mean, there's a lot of people moving out
there, the people that I talk to there.
That'll
Speaker: continue.
Speaker 2: They're coming to come.
They want to come and they continue
where they just want to be in the city.
It's, it's more relaxing
as we previously stated.
And your heart rate goes down a little
bit when you're there compared to Dallas,
not as much traffic cheaper cost of
living, I think for housing, all that good
stuff and better restaurants, honestly,
better barbecue at least for sure.
But, I think that's something
I appreciate about it.
And I see a lot more people coming.
Speaker: I, I think that's great.
The businesses will be coming too, yes.
Absolutely.
Job, the jobs, exactly.
The job creation.
Yeah.
Homes are where the jobs go at night.
Correct.
I mean, we have so much
Speaker 3: development happening
right now with A& M coming in.
That's a 350 million
project for Aggieland North.
As we're calling it.
And that's really exciting coming
to the southern end of downtown.
Right next door.
We are spending about 90 million
to re revamp our convention center.
So wow, we're really investing
in things like that to help
bring people to the city.
And we mentioned Panther Island earlier.
That's rocking and rolling as
the federal funds finally came.
You're going to start to see that really
developing to something truly amazing.
We're West 7th is really we've had,
yeah, we've, and we have some really
great developments coming to West 7th.
People that are really investing in
the golden, there's two goldenrod
projects that are really going
to change the face of that area.
And then we've got, goldenrod
Speaker: being,
Speaker 3: goldenrod's, uh, one of
our developers, oh, a developer.
Okay, great.
Out of Nebraska.
Oh, I've got a local team and
trademark properties that they were
investing in the near south side.
They've got a 98 million development
coming in and so we are growing.
We are moving.
I think that we will continue to be the
funnest city in Texas without question.
And I think we'll continue to be one
of the safest cities as well because
we really feel Focus on your health and
your safety and making sure that you
are proud of the city that you live in.
And I know I'm certainly proud
and we stole West from Dallas
and so, we'd love to have more of
you if you'd like to come over.
Speaker: Yeah.
Well, listen, I'm proud
to be your neighbor.
So thank you.
We keep our yard cut.
You do.
You keep the fence intact.
Yeah.
Well, and the fence is lower now because
we've got DFW as a little jettison.
This is great.
I will be over there.
I want to see, I want to tour Panther
and then we'll talk about it some more.
And please tell everyone in Fort Worth
to read Candy Dirt and to send us story
ideas because we want to cover you.
you more and more.
Thank you so much.
Thank you
Speaker 2: for having us.
Speaker: Thank you so much.
And thank you for joining us because
you never know what we're going to talk
about or what community we're going
to talk about here on Dallas Dirt.
Even though it's Dallas, we do Fort Worth.
Thank you.