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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I would like to invite you
to take a moment, a moment
within your day, to reflect.
To reflect on a word, integration.
Allowing yourself
to find a place,
comfortable,
finding a place removed from distractions,
To think about the word integration
and what it means to you.
As you settle in, taking a breath in and a
gentle breath out, softening the thoughts
with each breath in and with each breath
out, removing any obstacles, simply be.
And as you do so, allow the idea
of integration to take hold.
Wondering what you are integrating.
What you are taking from
your lived experience.
Breathing in and breathing out.
Maybe it's your day.
Maybe you are integrating what has
happened today or within the last week.
Maybe it's a deeper sense of
connection to your higher power.
Whatever this is, The idea of
integration is connection is making whole
breathing in and breathing out.
Allow yourself to find a deeper
connection first and foremost to yourself,
allowing yourself to wonder, to explore.
Breathing in and breathing out.
As you continue to find
what you are integrating,
I ask you, where is your heart?
How are you integrating your emotions?
Breathing in and breathing out.
And as you do so, allow yourself to
start to feel your physical body,
how you're integrating
your physical sense.
With your emotional heart,
with the subject that you are,
constantly seeking wholeness.
Breathing in and breathing out, now circle
back to the thoughts of integration.
Once again, being ever so gentle,
letting everything flow through,
emotional, physical, and cognitive.
Witnessing the puzzles being connected
and the wholeness coming to the surface.
In this moment, within this minute,
taking the opportunity now to recenter,
breathing in and breathing out,
finding your body, finding a deeper
connection to the elements around
you, your five senses, and opening
your eyes when you feel called.
Welcome to a special episode of
the second Alex psychologist.
Today I am celebrating the
fifth anniversary of a book.
I authored called the psychedelic
integration handbook, celebrating
revised re edited and repackaged
book that is now on amazon.com.
Both paperback.
Hard cover.
And we'll be digital on
the first week of November.
I'm humbled by this opportunity
to really build upon.
What I feel as an organic
substance and an organic matter.
Psychedelic integration.
Is something that I want to invite people.
To make it their own.
Create a space of their unique
fingerprint, often called universal
fingerprint of healing and transitions
and transformation to wholeness.
Everybody has their own unique
path, specific plant medicines
and psychedelics that they use.
And what I've found within this book.
Is an opportunity for everybody to come.
Into healing into psychedelic
integration within their own framework.
And I'm humbled by the opportunity
to share this book with everybody.
Deeply grateful for people listening.
And at this moment, I will
turn to Jill who interviews me.
And give a opportunity to
really explore my personal
opinions on what the latest is.
And harm reduction,
psychedelic integration.
Potential challenges.
As well as the deep opportunities
of what's on the horizon.
I bow and ask everyone to be gentle.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly dose of
the Psychedelic Psychologist.
Where I invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experiences.
We cover a variety of topics
from overcoming addiction and
severe depression to finding
wholeness and spiritual emergence.
Today I'm very, very grateful
and honored to have Jill.
Jill and I are going to talk
about a very important subject
matter, which is integration.
I'm here to celebrate and honor
the fifth anniversary of the
Psychedelic Integration Handbook.
And along with Jill, we're going to
explore the importance of integration,
dive into deeper subjects about
integration, and most importantly,
highlight a little bit about , the
Psychedelic Integration Handbook.
Jill, it's great to have you.
Thank you for joining me.
Hi, Ryan.
Thanks for having me.
Super happy to celebrate this
very significant milestone.
Been following Your work, has been
a beacon of support and knowledge
for my community, which is more
along the lines of provider academia
hoping to be able to dive into the
latest insights in your addition
and just what you mentioned around.
Some of the changes in integration.
So I'll start by opening with just a
really general question before we get
into some of those specifics, how has
your practice of integration and just
your knowledge of integration evolved
over the years since you first wrote
the first edition of your handbook?
And maybe tell me a little
bit about that timeframe.
What has changed in psychedelic
integration throughout those five years?
It's a really good question,
and I'm super thankful for it.
I'd love to start by explaining
the original reason I wrote the
book, which is, I think it's a
book that needs to be organically
created and held by each individual.
So to answer your question more
specifically, over the course of the
last five years since The inception of
the psychedelic integration handbook.
I've noticed the importance of
everything always constantly changing.
So one of the things that I've been most
surprised at is the idea that integration
is actually constantly changing.
It's ever evolving.
And so for me personally, what I noticed
both with my clients and within my own
personal narrative is this idea that.
What worked last year or what
worked last month or even last week
might still have Significance to my
practice or my process, but I need
to be aware that there's other tools.
There's other modalities and there's
other Perspectives to take on so the
idea of psychedelic integration over
the last few five years has been ever
evolving and Due to the renaissance,
the newness and the communities that
are giving safe space to being able
to process and actually talk about it.
Thanks.
Yeah.
Wow.
That's so happy that you
went down that route.
I wasn't expecting that.
And that makes a lot of sense in
terms of it feels like it's just a
very personal journey as well and
that everyone connects differently
with the handbook and also changes
constantly throughout their experiences.
So that's really unique almost that
this edition could have been put
out maybe right away after the last.
Is what you're saying, but can you
maybe elaborate a little bit more on
how individual intentions or individual
experiences, maybe shape how they
interpret Or use your, use your handbook.
That's really important.
And Jill, I'm grateful that you
brought that to my attention.
The idea of the handbook is to
actually be able to open it at
any given space or any given part.
So when someone is
integrating or in process of.
Building an intention as you alluded to,
I want to make sure that the individual
has access to a place where they
feel safe entering into psychedelics.
One of the things that I've witnessed
within my experience, professionally,
is everybody is coming into this work
In a different way, and if we don't
acknowledge that people are coming in
with more knowledge, less knowledge, more
experience, no experience, we are going to
put the proverbial square peg in a circle
hole, round peg in a triangle hole, and
never really match the person's interests.
And so to your point, the book actually
helps the individual crystallize
what their intention is, what their
true motivations for working with
psychedelics are, all the while engaging
in preparation to a psychedelic journey,
then following it with the bookend
of helping them land the experience.
Thank you.
Thanks for that answer.
It leads me into, I think you know, it
may be more of the challenging aspects
of integration for individuals, right?
Because it is so like there isn't
like a cookie cutter approach or
framework for people to follow.
And it's wonderful that you have such
a robust handbook that people can pick
their own adventure, but kind of curious,
what do you see as the most challenging
aspect for people in integration
after their psychedelic experiences?
And maybe that's a wide range,
but is there anything specific or
common in some of the challenges?
The idea of challenges is
a really wonderful concept.
I talk a lot about challenges
in the book, in the idea that
we often have expectations.
So the largest challenge that I've
witnessed, both practically as a clinician
supporting people in integration, and
then people that have reached out to
me, is this challenge, Jill, that They
thought they didn't have expectations,
but lo and behold, either unconsciously
or because they put so much emphasis
on the desire to be healed, they
find that the expectations are always
kind of left with more to chew on.
And in the book and also in practice,
I often talk to people about, you know,
releasing the grip on in order to be
able to be open to the experience.
In psychedelics, we often say you get what
you need, not necessarily what you want.
Another challenge that I find that's super
important for the psychedelic community to
be aware of is this isn't a silver bullet.
This isn't a one and done.
This takes a lot of practice, a lot.
of real intentional effort.
And when I say effort, it doesn't
mean work, but more so you have to
be devoted to your mental health,
to your healing, and to the fact
that you know that this isn't going
to be over after one experience.
So between, holding on to too much
control, holding on to expectations,
and holding on to this idea that it
could be one and done, those are pretty
high level ones that I hear often.
Thank you.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and I feel
like I've seen a lot of that in just in
how you're guiding through your handbook.
Curious, how can people, lower those
expectations or maybe, assess if they
are ready for their experience knowing
that they have to lessen their control?
Are there any signs that maybe indicate?
Who's ready or, or who might
need more support or guidance
prior to taking an experience.
Phenomenal idea is for people
to really get a better sense
of their internal process.
I say to people that
I'm not the gatekeeper.
I can't tell anybody
what's appropriate when.
Often I meet people after the fact.
So a large aspect of my hope is that
this is a harm reduction manual.
So to put the cart a little bit before
the horse, I want to make sure people
understand that this book is out
there in order to educate themselves.
So I'm going to take a little bit
of time to remind people that.
You really don't know when you're ready
until there's two ways of recognizing it.
Your intuitive sense, your body is
just alarmingly calling you to this.
It's almost as if the invitation
is being given to you.
And the second one coalesces with
the idea of the education, the proper
research, the proper due diligence.
And in my book, I often remind people
that it's like jumping out of an airplane.
You want to go to the drop zone.
You want to talk to the instructors.
You want to get the appropriate knowledge.
And at the same time you want to
watch others and you want to hear
of other people's stories in order
to make your own informed decision.
So it is a very nuanced again, question
to say when people are ready, when
people aren't, but the two pillars
for me, Jill are psychoeducation,
making sure they have enough.
info.
Number two, is their intuition
really connecting with them?
And then the third part, which is vital
that I speak about in the book, is one's
mindset and the setting, the environment.
There's a funny story in the book
about a couple where they put cleaning
supplies, they put cleaning supplies
out and they've cleaned their entire
townhouse, but they have left them out.
And what ends up happening in that
story is, it becomes part of their
experience because They've been
so over consumed with cleaning.
So in that we have to be conscious
of what's on our mind and what
we're bringing to the table.
Thank you.
That, that makes me happy kind of in more
of the education space to hear you say
all of that and weave it so eloquently
with other, you know, intuition and you
know, spiritual, maybe feelings around it.
So it's very nuanced.
I'm curious, maybe if you could share
a personal story of a psychedelic
experience or an integration experience
that you've had and how it influenced.
Your perspective on integration
and maybe even the updated
edition that you've just released.
Thank you.
I'm, I'm really
enthusiastic to share that.
So I often say that part of my career
is obviously my own self exploration.
And within the last year, I've
been really, really informed to
this experience that came through
an experience of psychedelics.
I was dying each and every
moment within the experience.
And so it was what I would call a
challenging and very, very noble
opportunity for me to reflect on my life.
And in that I came closer and closer
to what is now identified as healing a
death anxiety and being more and more
comfortable with the idea of end of life,
which then I ended up weaving into this
5th anniversary edition with the last
chapter of the book being designing one's
own death and the idea of ascension, one's
opportunity to explore their own spiritual
path, and all in both my experience
with the medicine and the unfolding
of the last chapter being changed, I
witnessed a real new birth of life.
a recognition that death is coming and
yet I can create it, I can rehearse
it, I can explore it, and I can play
within the realm of being clear with
my spirituality, being clear with
what I hope my family understands, and
really honoring each and every day.
Now that's been a challenge because life
gets in our way, but for the most part,
It's really been a wonderful confluence
of two merging ideas of both death, life,
and then being able to write that in the
final chapter, designing one's own death.
Wow.
Thanks so much for sharing that.
If you would.
Think about your book broadly if someone
were, if you could just have someone
walk away with one big lesson or big
idea from your updated handbook, what
would you want that key takeaway to be?
The key takeaway that I often say,
and that I'm really enthusiastic
about is, One, making it your own,
and in making it your own, going back
to the earlier conversation we were
having, is recognizing how organic
and how transformational it can be.
So this book is designed to be a
living, breathing subject matter that
you're going to be able to engage with.
reflect back on and Visit in
the space that could be totally
different six months from now.
You could read the same book You
could be in the same chapter six
months to one year and because you've
made it your own you'll see your
own Transformation within the pages.
Is there anything that excites you
about the future for people and Where
psychedelics is going or where it's
not going from a therapy perspective,
I know there's been a lot of, , ups
and downs, but just kind of curious
as you talk about, particular keynote
what, what does the future look like
for people who are, you know, actively
seeking psychedelics and therapy?
As I see the horizon of psychedelic
therapy and the movement of the
psychedelic renaissance, I feel
that one of the most luminous
and enlightening things that's
happening is the conversation.
This idea that it's becoming less and
less taboo to have a conversation about
the healing of mental health, the healing
of mental illness, the connections of
all these different complex traumas being
supported by the healing of psychedelics.
Thank you All of this to say,
having this wonderful forum of open
conversation, we have to be conscious
of the fact that if we go too fast,
too much, too soon, that it might be
a difficult container to be holding.
And what I mean by that, Jill,
is it's beautiful that It's
across all social medias.
It's across general news platforms.
I'm even seeing it locally in wonderful
stores, creating legal mushroom
stores and the advent of all these
recreational ideas of decriminalization.
And yet we have to remember if we're not
educating the general public soon enough
and with enough information that too soon,
too much, too fast, couldn't put it in
the hands of people not ready to use it.
So as beautiful as it is to help with
mental health and mental illness, we
have to be consistently conscious of
our educating of the general public.
Thank you.
Well, I've been a follower of
your podcast for the last year,
and I know that you always end
your podcast with this question.
So I'm going to ask you
this question because.
Maybe you don't get asked it very often,
but what are you doing to be gentle with
your mind, body and spirit as you launch
a new book and continue to do this work?
What am I doing to be gentle?
Wishing for more sleep.
Releasing the grip of attachment.
That is the largest thing
I'm doing right now.
I was humorous about the sleep, but
Jill, I, my lesson with my beautiful
family, beautiful children is releasing
the outcome, releasing the control.
And it is a daily, daily, daily exercise
of finding myself attempting to breathe.
Attempting to slow down, and honestly
attempting to say the same mantra I
ask of everybody else on the planet.
So, I'm really grateful that
you bring it to my attention.
One of the ways I do it is put
a silly fake robot tattoo on
recently over the last month and
I recognized by looking at that.
fake tattoo on my arm.
It gave me pause