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The Navvai Shift – AI & Business Insights
Welcome to The Navvai Shift, the podcast where business leaders in finance share their journeys, challenges, and unfiltered thoughts on artificial intelligence. We dive deep into how AI is shaping industries, uncovering real-world insights from those driving innovation.
Subscribe for expert conversations on AI, automation, and the future of business.
Welcome back to the NBA shift. Today
we're joined by a very amazing man. His
name is called Paul. He's the co-founder
of My Times Pensions. And today we're
going to be taking a deep dive into, you
know, artificial intelligence within my
shift. So Paul, I mean, well, it's a
pleasure to have you on. How are you?
Good. Thanks for having me. Pleasure to
be here. Paul, wanted to start by
asking, can you tell us a little bit
about yourself and you know, my time
pensions and what's the real you have?
Yeah, I'm an apprentice boy in the
pensions industry. So I kind of started
at 18 and in define benefit
administration and went went through the
ranks. Ended up in the last bit of my
career I was director of business
development at Nest. We put about 6 and
a half 7 million people into that. And
then I was doing a similar sort of role
for smart pension and we we put a couple
of billion in into that whilst always
looking at tech, always looking at
innovation, always thinking about the
problem, the solution and and where the
market failure was. And about I I hit a
certain big birthday. I I'll let your
listeners work out how big that was. And
uh I took a year off and I went to study
full-time at university. And during that
time I came up with the business plan
and idea for my time pension. It's it's
actually two two businesses. It's retire
technology which produces the kit that
sits on top of my time pension. And uh
yeah that was about gosh about 18 months
ago. I wanted to ask what university did
you go to? I went to Cambridge. Smart
lad. Definitely a smart lad. I went
there a lot a lot later than you were
supposed to go there. So let's let's not
get too carried away but yeah no I
Cambridge now than it was back then. So
I mean well I just had to say
congratulations on that. So tell me
something. What's a typical day like as
a co-founder? How do you balance
obviously the work that you dayto day
versus the vision that you have for my
type pensions and retire world? That's
that's a cracky question. So I'm going
to say something really cheesy. There is
no typical day. I I would also say the
way I'm put together and built, I quite
like that. So, um I do everything from
from from the really boring stuff like
finance and and paying invoices to the
interesting things like podcasts and
conferences and and and and everything
everything in between. Um I would make
the point though to two well maybe two
or three points. Firstly,
um enjoy it. So, so I specifically said
in my head, enjoy this. Even the boring
stuff, enjoy it. It's your baby. It's
your creation. So, to so do that. Number
one. Number two, um, discipline and
turning up is your superpower every day.
An hour, two hours, seven hours, eight,
whatever it is. Um, be disciplined. And
I'm in my garden office or as the more
juvenile friends I've got the shed in
the garden. Um, and if I was to swing
the camera around, you would see I've
got a couple of whiteboards. I've got a
big plan app. I've got lots of little
post-it notes on it. So, I've got got a
good idea what my northstar is and
what's going to happen when. And that
helps me turn up every day. And my
co-founder and I always have this little
little saying, we just need to
be 5 cm further forward than we were
yesterday. And if you keep doing that
the old compound effect of that just
just pays pays amazing dividends. It's
only when you step stop to look
backwards you suddenly go criy you know
we have we have done done quite a lot
but yeah be being disciplined enjoying
it and just making those little steps
forward all all the time is is what I
would call the typical day of a
co-founder. I wanted to ask how did you
and your co-founder you know how did you
guys link? Have you always known each
other? Criy what a question. So about 20
years ago um I was playing Sunday
football on the Pearly Way in Cryen
which if anybody knows it's like it's
it's like a BTech version of Hackne
Marshes. It's not not as glamorous. I
know exactly I know exactly what you're
talking about. Excellent. Elliot. Yeah.
Elliot, my co-founder, was trying to get
past me. He he wasn't going to get past
me. I clattered him and we have been sat
next to each other at Crystal Palace
receiving tickets for the last five or
six years. and we'd known each other for
the last 20 years in the
industry. It it it question what we get
about co-founder but my co-founder and I
I trust him. I know how he thinks. I
also know what he brings to the party
and what I bring to the party and it's
kind of 2 plus two equals six. You know,
yes, there are some overlaps there.
There always will be. But he's really
good at let's say regulation. I'm really
good at product in a regulated product
environment. It's it's great you have
both those bases covered. Yeah. No,
without a doubt. So Paul obviously you
know you've been at this for a fair
while to be said. What would you say are
the biggest shift you are seeing in the
pension industry right now? Criy that's
a good I mean there's a lot of stuff
coming down the pipes from the regulator
looking at targeted support which is a
brand new regulatory regime at the
moment. We've got advice, not advice.
Targeted support is the bit in between.
We'll know more about that Q4 this year,
maybe Q1 next year. I think that's a big
thing. Government are putting scheme
trustees and insurance companies under
pressure to invest more in the UK. So
there's there's there's there's hundreds
of billions of pounds invested. The
typical pension scheme is invested in
less than 5% in the equity market of the
UK. the government would like to, you
know, get get that up to 10 15% and
looking at partnerships on how it how it
can do. Those those are the two big
regulatory and legislation types of
headwinds. But but the the one I'm
focused on which which I see enormously
is every year over
350,000 people with 30 billion access
their pension savings for the first
time. It is not an exaggeration to say
there's a wall of money coming onto the
market and they're looking for sensible
products and s sensible solutions and so
so what you're seeing now is people now
thinking about that situation but I
would argue more importantly thinking
about the what problem they're trying to
solve. I see. So on the topic of
solutions in the pension industry, how
do you think um digital transformation
and including AI is changing the
retirement space? It's everything. it. I
mean, I can't I know I'm preaching to
the converted here, but you are as good
as the kit that you build your product
or idea on. And and and you just are.
So, when you're thinking about I want
this problem to be solved, how good your
kit is is going to make the difference
between having a great idea and it going
nowhere and having a great idea and
getting it into the market and making it
effective. Now, so far in the last 18
months, two years, I would say AI has
been the fifth man of person of our
team, doing a lot of the heavy lifting,
a lot of the basic stuff that we maybe
previously would have to employ someone
for. Um, and I think we're just
scratching the surface. I I the cost of
cutting code has come down by a third.
Our lawyers bills have come down because
we don't need to do the basic stuff with
with them anymore. And I'm I'm really
thinking about the next 2 3 5 years.
Where's it going to be? Jumping to
solution mode or being a wishful
thinker. You have to think what it's
going to be like in 2 three years time
and where you going to put place place
your bets. Um and so uh I I I would
probably characterize this. We're on the
cusp of of kind of a digital revolution
2.0. We've had the first bit. we can see
what we can do. Now with
AI, you know, suddenly you're going to
be able to bring all all these all these
ideas to market and you have an
embarrassment of riches of good tech to
go and choose from to help you do it.
Yes. With all the tech that you pretty
much you've implemented within your
business, you know, with the artificial
intelligence, you've saved a lot of
time. And we've come across some people
who have, you know, not yet implemented
within their own business. And it's
somehow hard for them to see how AI can
save time. Paul from yourself, how much
time do you reckon you've saved, you
know, within a week of, you know, at
least at least a third. The way I would
describe it is it does 80% of the job.
So if I want a new website, I go onto a
bit of AI kit and I put in what this is
what I'm thinking about. I have a little
play and then I've got possibly the best
brief I can then throw at a tech person
and say build that. And and whereas
previously they said, "Oh, that's a
fiveday job." Now, it's a day because
because I've done half a day using an AI
tool and and um that they're just
they're adding a bit of 10%. You know,
that that's great and a bit of a bit of
good judgment and wisdom to it, but it
makes a difference. I
I mean, I am gobsmacked that nobody's
putting it in their business. I mean,
but but kind of nothing surprises me
anymore. People are absolutely entitled
not to not to use AI. You're absolutely
entitled not to use AI and you're
absolutely entitled to use Doveare. The
market makes up its decision as to
whether it's not going to fund you,
whether it's going to buy your products
or or whether you're you're you're going
to be going to be late to it. Okay? I
don't know any business plan where they
say, "Do you know what? We're going to
go for secondary kit. We're not going to
use AI and and we're going to have this
biggest best proposition in the market
and it work well." So yeah, my challenge
back to folk who were telling using AI,
knock yourself out. You know, I I'll
give it 12 18 months and your bills will
be five times mine. You will not be able
to run your business on that basis.
That's incredible. I know we did speak
off camera, but you you mentioned using
AI for a sermon. What inspired that? So
So yeah, I am probably the only person
on this podcast that actually does
deliver a sermon, and I do that in the
Church of England under the license as a
bishop. But um um it takes the heavy
lifting out. So a sermon generally would
take me about a week to research and and
to think about and and and to mind map
and and create. Now now it takes me a
couple of hours and I'll use AI to do
the framework and then I'll put it down
and then every every day I'll do 15 20
minutes just kicking up to a Sunday. So
I I find it more pleasurable. I find it
much easier and I can engage much more
with what I call the the relatable bit.
So, so I I write sermons with one hand
of the Bible, one hand of the newspaper
and and I smash them together and I try
and interpret things like that and AI
makes it super easy, but I I enjoy it
more and therefore it um it enables me
to work on the nice bits or the bit the
bits that make it relevant, but also
then on my delivery and you know, if you
just put that into a work context when
you're thinking about drafting a
shareholders update or if you're
thinking about drafting a memorandum of
understanding. You you kind of know know
what you want to do, but AI does it so
quickly. You can put it down, you can
share it. It's a very collaborative tool
as well. And I I've challenged all the
people that work with me that, you know,
that they should be they should be
thinking at least a third time saved and
cost saved in using AI. And and I I I
think that's light. I think the figures
probably 50% if not 60. Yeah,
definitely. I think uh when it comes to
AI people tend to be quite conservative
for how much time it can save but really
and truly I mean we we use it. I mean we
are an AI grow consulty company and
obviously I think even the tools that
we've seen coming out is just and they
coming not even just the tools that
coming out but they come out so rapidly
as well. I think that just literally
surprises every day but um Paul I know
you just kind of went over the usage of
AI in terms of a sermon. Great story by
the way. So I just wanted to dive deeper
in terms of AI used in your business. So
yeah, where do you think it's like
making the biggest dents?
Oh. Oh, that's a So um in financial
services, a big element of whether or
not I am going to work with you is
trust. And to that extent, I need to
know who my customers are. And the bit
of kit that we work with to identify the
customer uses a bit of AI to spot
fakes. So the last thing I want is
uh a newspaper article or a press
article going across the wires
saying my time has been targeted by
fraudsters. It's terrible. You will see
people not use you. You'll see people
see people leave you. So to be a safe
proposition, we have to know the people
that we're bringing in onto the platform
and that the kit we use uses AI to spot
deed fakes. So so the human eye cannot
pick up some of these fake passports,
some of these fake driver's license, but
the AI can spot it. So it's a bit dry,
don't get me wrong, it is dry, but I
think it's so important. And if it goes
wrong, criy, you you're you're in a
world of hub. That that that's point
number one. Point number two though, if
if you think of our customer service and
how we're delivering it, what we're
noticing is more people want to kind of
get it done one and done. Yeah, I've got
a problem. How do I fix it? Um, and to
that point, we are feeding and training
up our customer service AI bot to take
away some of those really simple quick
questions that people have so they can
so they can get back online and and do
what it whatever it is it does. And the
irony being is that when when they do
come through and if they can't get it
resolved, they pick up the phone, they
are already five or six paces ahead of
where they were because the customer
service AI bot has asked them the right
questions and they've answered it and
and and for whatever reason not been
able to resolve it, but they are much
further forward. You're not starting
again from zero and tell me the story or
anything like that. You you can see what
it's see what it's doing. So from a
customer experience perspective, but
from from a safe place, those are just
two of the I think the big things that
our customers will see when using AI.
Definitely. I think that's what some
people forget is that it's mutually
beneficial not just on the business
side, but on the customer side as well.
So even obviously an example, not only
has a customer improved their
information by literally just entering,
you know, questions in the chatbot, at
least when they pick up the call, they
already have a significant amount of
information and that just makes the call
time frame a lot shorter. But uh I did
want to reverse a question to you Paul.
So what would you say has been tricky
and maybe has it been like kind of still
maintaining the human touch using AI and
digital transformations? I guess my
question to you is how do you keep it
authentic? We are a digital first
proposition platform. So everything
should work online. However, we're we're
super conscious that when people come to
buy products, they will want to talk to
somebody. you know, some of our
customers will be introduced by an IFA
or wealth manager, so they've got that
person to talk to and that and that's
fine, but
um having having tone and voice of a
person at the other end is I think a key
part of our service delivery. Now, I've
really struggled to try and get the tone
and the
content specific enough for our customer
set in so far as we have deliberately
recruited folk who are over the age of
50 to talk to other people who were over
the age of 50 who were trying to take
their their pension savings. and and we
do it for the right reasons because
there's the there's a tonality and there
there's a you know an empathy that you
will have as a 50-y old that you just
won't have as a 20-year-old um which we
want to we want to capitalize on you
know if I've got an AI bot that can do
that and and give that reassurance then
then I would use it tomorrow but at the
moment we don't we don't have that so I
wouldn't say necessarily tricky I think
it's more like you know just
acknowledging it does it the AI this
stuff really really really well but for
this bit it doesn't do it well so let's
not try and pretend let's put the thing
in that that does work well but at the
moment I would say it's 2 plus two
equals six you know we've got a service
center and a service experience on
compared to others for for for peanuts I
did want to ask how how do you get in
front of your target audience uh it's
it's a good question actually so I
probably take a step back I I I see our
audience as kind of like a bell curve so
you've got your early adopters you've
got your early majority and the elite
majority and at the moment I'm using my
little black book of personal contacts
as well as my co-founders and we're
talking to folk who we would recognize
as early adopters. Now early adopters
are folk with the customers have got the
problem. They're looking for the
solution and aren't afraid of
technology. That's not everyone and that
and that's fine. But we'll we'll find
we'll find the ones that are like that
and we'll work with them first
and through a a period of time we will
then start thinking about moving into
the early early majority. Appreciate the
insight on that. Paul, anyone asks as
well what metrics are you tying down on
you know the most? I feel like you've
answered a little bit of this but you
know things like efficiency or you know
customer trust you know what's the
toughest to measure? Um, the toughest to
measure is feelings and and I I'm a big
believer in emotions by. So, you know,
you can work it out on a spreadsheet and
do a sideby-side comparison, but brand
and
expectation plays a lot more to to the
emotional side and and a good brand will
reduce your cost of acquisition and will
reduce your cost of cost of retention.
Um, it it's also kind of easily lost as
well if it if if it does go. The big
metric with at the moment is uh num
numbers on the platform, assets on the
platform, um cost of acquisition, and
then cost of service. Th those are the
the four big key measures that we're
looking for. And we're so early, you
know, we're just establishing a kind of
baseline first. I mean, I I've got a
rough idea what what good looks like,
you know, and I and I know what I want
to avoid. I know what my minimum is. and
know what my ideal is. Um, but it's only
after a few quarters of trading are you
really going to be able to get any
meaningful traction on those metrics and
say right this is what we need to look
at and we need to fine-tune this. That
makes sense. That makes sense. So Paul,
I did want to ask so we've done like our
research into your industry and we seen
that one of the biggest issues facing
your industry is the advice gap and
people can't afford or access
traditional financial advice. So from
your perspective, how can technology in
general change that? So I'm going to be
a little bit contentious here. It
doesn't. And the reason I'm being
contentious is because you've asked me
about the advice gap. So at the moment
in the in if you take a step back,
you've got two regimes. You got
non-advice and you've got advice that
they are quite specific in their
boundaries. Someone says, I recommend
you do this having taken in
consideration everything. And over here
you've got me as an individual going on
and buying a product. Okay. Now, one of
them is do it yourself. Advice is do it
for me. I think the future of financial
services is that bit in between which is
do it with me. So, I'm if I'm atypical,
I'm not stupid. I'm not a PhD, but I
really don't need to go through 26
questions on a questionnaire to buy life
cover or to buy an annuity. These are
relatively straightforward products. But
because I don't fit in in the do it do
it for me or do it do it yourself or do
it do it for me categories, I'm forced
into doing one of these. Hence the
advice gap. Now I I would argue until
you've got three ways of trading. Do it
for me, do it with me, which is the
missing bit, and do it for me. You can't
really claim there's an advice gap. I
understand where it comes from, but I
would say understand the problem you're
solving. Most people don't know the
difference between targeted and advice
anyway. They know roughly what they
want. They want to buy it and they might
need a little bit of help in selecting
certain things on it. Therefore, I I I
would argue the regulator has a role to
play to to promote these three things,
but underneath it, you've got to have
good tech, you've got to have good AI.
How does my time and pensions provide a
a tailored affordable guidance in a way
that works without, you know, onetoone
advice?
Yeah, if I was going to recommend your
listeners to do anything after this
podcast, well, other than contact me,
but is to read read the book Nudge.
Nudge was the back. It's a behavioral
science book. It was the backbone of
Nest. Nest understood the problem it was
solving. It came up with a solution. It
used nudge theory. The way to think
about it is I will present back to you
some options.
It is up to you to decide to select one
of those options. And the phrase we use
in our business is it's much easier to
mark someone else's homework than for
you to sit down and write the essay. So
a big part of my time is we take complex
make it super simple play back to you
four options you buy one and then we do
the governance around it. And I think
you will cover I would 80% of the market
relatively cost- effectively. I mean a
lot a lot cheaper than a lot of and the
outcome of that is I think you're going
to get more you're going to get better
outcomes from individuals buying better
products that way. I was say Paul you've
got a you've got a a dictionary full of
analogies. It's really helpful to
understand where you put things in
perspective. So thank you. We appreciate
that. It's almost like I do sermons
Paul. I did want to ask you kind of
highlighted it, you know, a few moments
ago, but where do you see my time
pensions in the next 6 to 12 months, you
know, like what's your dream outcome?
Wow, what a question. I want to be the
go-to to be the trusted brand in the
market that people want to use, but it
also
um the ripples effect keeps every
everyone else honest in the market. So
um that you know let's you know we we
live in a free we live in a market
economy it's it's relatively free might
be regulated but um if you're the
shining light you then you're going to
attract people to you and we don't need
that much traction to to have a lovely
little business and that's great but
that is an outcome of our business. The
number one thing is be the go-to
retirement platform, be known for doing
the job really, really really really
well and and to be trusted. And if I can
do those three things, then then
everything else will fall into place.
And Paul, so if you if you could solve
let's say one challenge a day, say
simplifying pension for example, what in
your opinion, what what would it be and
why?
Um all these are all good questions. Um
I need to think on this one I
uh the problem uh people talk about
adequacy in pension savings. Okay. Um
pension savings is super easy. There's
only four things you do. One is join the
scheme. The other one is put as much
money in as you can do. Then keep an eye
on charges and get above inflation
returns. You do those four things.
99 times out of 100, you'll be fine.
Automatic enrollment does three of those
things really, really well. The one that
doesn't do well is the contribution. And
and the problem we've got is people
think, I'm in an automatic enrollment
scheme, therefore I'm okay. And they're
not. It's starting. It's a starting
place to get you into the savings habit
to to to to understand the difference
between gross and there. And and you see
a little statement.
Um, I know this might my I I'll put my
pensions priesthood h hat hat on now,
but I would double the amount of money
that folk are putting into their pension
schemes and I would start them from age
zero. As soon as they're born, I'd put
10 grand in to their own little separate
pension pot that they they can't touch
for for 30 40 years. And within about 20
and and double everyone else and within
20 30 years we will be a completely self
sufficient society off the back of that.
Would you plan on getting that in you
know in front of people or getting
getting that installed into a lot of
people to do a lot of people are set a
lot of people are setting their ways on
certain things but it'll be interesting
to know your point of view of how we
would I I'll give you a fact. uh before
automatic enrollment was introduced in
the UK, even the most well-funded
pension scheme had a participation rate
of about 30%. So, so you could you could
have 10% employer contribution, people
didn't join it. The the the John Lewis
scheme at the time, I think it's a DB
scheme, non-contribut, 5% of the people
still don't join it. It it's it's nuts.
Automatic enrollment says we're going to
put you in. If you want to jump out, you
can do, but but if if you're out after
three years, we're going to stick you
back in again. And we had a we got a
partition partition uh we've got over
90% of people in in in pension schemes.
So unfortunately, whilst it's a really
good thing to do to save for retirement,
we have to we have to use legislation to
do it. And and it you know that there's
there's no getting away from it. And and
if you want you want to look at what
good looks like, look at Singapore.
Singapore has a cracking welfare benefit
system based on compulsory worker
contributions. It it's a great model
that that we could copy and we could
solve a lot of other things like how do
we pay for universal health care and and
and housing and things like that. So
legislation is number one, but um
ringing in my ears is it's it's very
easy to be right or wrong. It's very
difficult to be effective certainly in a
five-year parliamentary cycle. So how do
you get long-term stuff signed off? do
what the former prime minister Tony
Blair did which is he took pensions
planning out of the mainstream. He asked
L now Lord Turner to look at it. He
spent a few years doing it looking
around the globe came up with automatic
enrollment came up with a basic state
pension then brought it back into the
political mainstream got cross party
support and then took it through
parliament. So you have a really bright
person outside thinking yeah
understanding the problem coming up with
solutions then bringing it back into a
democratic policy to then get voted on
them and and be made law. I can't see
how we're going to do any big changes in
welfare or social care or pensions
care with the way that we're you know
you put it straight into parliament as a
private members bill. It'll be shut down
in flames. So, so I would spend a couple
of million quid getting that report done
and then getting cross party support to
to to implement it through parliament.
Nice. Yeah, I feel that ties back into
your dream outcome of becoming that
trusted brand. I like the element of
when you said honesty because similar to
us and we like to be really transparent
on a lot of things and it's seems like
there's a few synergies. Um, I wanted to
ask how do you think AI and retirement
as a service will, you know, evolve in
the next 5 years?
Yeah, it's interesting actually. Uh the
FCA asked me a similar sort of question
and and the easier answer is got no idea
because you know anyone who predicts
what happens in five years time you know
5 years ago would you predicted COVID?
No lockdowns. No. So you know you got to
you know um I I suppose the lesson
learned I would I would take there is
think think back to Google. So on the
and think of healthcare. So on the one
hand, people are googling, oh, I just
need to take some ibuprofen. Oh, I've
got a sprained ankle. I need I need to
elevate it and put some some frozen peas
on it. That's good. And then on the
other hand, you've got people self
diagnosing. I've got schizophrenia,
right? I'm going to go on to the dark
web and start medicating myself, you
know, and and that's obviously
undesirable. But in financial services,
if we get the AI bit correct and and we
go up a few levels from it, I think what
we have is very well informed people
that are able that are empowered to make
good decisions. So, so really easy
example, I know we do it in some ways,
but when when you look at your bank
statement or online, you've got the bot
telling you, will you pay off this bit
of debt that's really expensive? And you
could either pay it off with the money
you've got in your current account or
there's an interest free loan or an
interest free credit card balance over
here. You know, move it around. Let's
make the most efficient use of our
money. That's something I I I would I
would like to see. I don't want to see
people doing DB transfers off the back
of what an AI bot says because that, you
know, there's too much nuance and gray
area around that. So, and I think the
key is having a good regulatory
framework that acknowledges that being
based on outcomes is is a really good
idea. What does good look like? What's
the idea? What do we want to avoid? And
then work back from there. I see. So,
Paul, you kind of spoken about obviously
your predictions in it as well as
obviously like your current state of
what my time has been doing now and what
you hope to achieve in the future.
wanted to ask what has been your biggest
kind of learning curve so far as a
co-founder obviously if you could share
to our viewers if they were to I don't
know implement some sort of their own
pension business own like could you give
them any sort of advice uh I can't give
advice
[Laughter]
so the financial advice comes back on um
the biggest co-founding is a lonely job
co-ounding is a tough job you you do
have to turn up every day and keep keep
keep at it. Uh if you've got a
co-founder who you trust, who you know
how they think, you know, you've got
complimentary skill sets, you both got
the same north star where you want to be
makes all the difference. It really
does. I've seen I've seen a lot of
people struggle when when they want to
keep 100% of the equity and and they see
like giving up 50% is is a 50% loss. It
really isn't. It means it means you're
almost certainly going to get the 50%
that's yours. Um because doing it all on
your own is is is tough. So I
I that that's the first thing I say. Um
sorry, what's the second part of your
question? And if you were to give like
any anyone else in your industry, maybe
they're doing some type of like pension
orientated um oriented business or even
just a business in financial services as
a whole like if you could give them a
piece of advice. Yeah. Two two things.
understand the problem you're solving
and know where the market failure is.
Two of the biggest two of the biggest
lessons I learned at Nest. And I I you
know, very quick story, I got ridiculed
in a pub when I first joined Nest by all
the big providers saying, "Oh, you know,
you need to do this, you need to do
that." And at Nest, we decided it was a
software problem, it was a payroll
problem, it was a compliance problem, it
was never a pensions problem. Five years
later, there were eight million people
enrolled in in automatic enrollment in
different pension schemes. Nest picked
up about seven million of them. It was a
huge huge percentage because we
understood the problem that we were
solving and we knew where the market
failure was that there's what I've
noticed is there's lots of products out
there doing the same as everything else.
That that's not innovation. That's just
replication. If you want to do genuine
innovation, leave your preconceived
biases at the door. Tough. I know but do
that really understand the problem that
you're solving with the people you want
to ser solve it for and and and really
think about where where there is market
failure. We we haven't gone for
accumulation. We haven't gone for ISIS.
We haven't gone for any of that stuff
because people can do that on their
phone. There is no market failure there.
But there's a massive market failure in
how you take your savings out safely.
And that's the bit that we concentrated
on. I have to say, Paul, this has been a
brilliant conversation. And if they want
to find you, where can they find you?
What's your LinkedIn? Find me on Yeah,
find me on LinkedIn. Yeah.
Unfortunately, um, my name's Budgeon, so
I get called Budgie on the football
field and and and things like that. And
and so when I was working, I was Budgie
from Nest, you know. So like this this
stuff just writes itself. But no,
LinkedIn is the easiest thing. Contact
details there. And genuinely um I'm a
massive massive fan of mentoring
um coffee chats or all of it. I've
written articles on on on the role of
mentoring and this type of stuff this
format of chatting if if one person gets
one idea from it that makes a
difference. We we we've all done our
job. You know if we can get more folk
doing that then then brilliant. So, you
know, I don't want to be cheesy and say
there's no such thing as a Darth
question because there is no such a
thing as a Darth question, but you know,
give it a go and let let's let's see
where we get to. Brilliant, Paul. It's
been a pleasure. Thank you so much for
joining our podcast. Thanks for having
me. Great questions, by the way. I'm
exhausted. Thank you, Paul. Thank you.