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This week, Krysia, Ian, and Zoe discuss navigating academic conferences as neurodivergent people. They share how often it can be hard to know the social expectations, as well as tips for avoiding burnout. They also tell some of their own stories from conferences.
The transcript of the episode is available here: https://share.transistor.fm/s/c77c5a12/transcript.txt
Register for the Centre for Autism and Theology webinar, 6th June: Kinship in the Household of God with Cynthia Tam (office.com)
Register for the Centre for Autism and Theology webinar, 6th June: Kinship in the Household of God with Cynthia Tam (office.com)
If you have any questions, or just want to say hi, email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on twitter @autismtheology.
This podcast is brought to you by The University of Aberdeen's Centre for Autism and Theology.
The artwork for this podcast uses the Centre for Autism and Theology Logo, created by Holly Russel.
Creators & Guests
Host
Ian Lasch
PhD candidate at the university of Aberdeen researching autism and the Imago Dei
Host
What is Autism and Theology Podcast?
The Autism and Theology Podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways in which both faith and non-faith communities can enable autistic people to flourish.
Our episodes are released on the first Wednesday of every month. We have a variety of guests who are related in some way to the field of autism and theology. Some are academics, others are people with life stories to share, and some are both!
We also release CATChat every third Wednesday of the month. These are shorter and more informal episodes where your hosts will share news and give you as listeners an opportunity to ask questions and share your stories.
Zoe: Hello and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology podcast. I'm Zoe and for this CATChat episode I'm with Krysia and Ian. The podcast is a space where we will be engaging with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways to help faith and non faith communities enable autistic people to thrive.
Conference season is coming up so today for this Cat Chat episode we wanted to speak about navigating conference season as autistic or neurodivergent people. So we thought we would start by sharing a little bit about our own experiences at conferences and then chat about some tips that'll hopefully help some of you if you're unsure about how to navigate conferences.
So I wonder if anyone wants to kick off by sharing any experiences they've had at conferences.
Ian: Sure, I am happy to share an experience. I, um, I once, so conferences are very much a mixed bag for me. I'll just start by saying that, and this is the perfect illustration of it. I have been to conferences where I attended every single thing that I could possibly attend.
And then I have actually attended a conference. I'm not proud of this and I probably shouldn't. Uh, say too loudly, which one it was, but I have attended a conference where I went to like two of the events at the start and then spent the rest of the time in my hotel room because it was just so overwhelming.
And so, uh, it was just, it was just too much. Right. And so for me, the dividing line is like, and I have been known to do that. Like, there are times where I go and attend a conference, even something that I'm excited about. I, I really have to be selective because I, I cannot attend everything right? Um, I can't be present for all of the, the whole session.
If it's two days long, three days long, I just, I just can't do that. Um, so I have to like pick what are the things that I want to make sure that I do not miss, um, and show up for those and then maybe just chill in my hotel room the rest of the time. And the, and for me, the, the, the biggest. I think the biggest dividing line is, is this an actual autistic special interest, right?
And if it is, then maybe I can hang in there for like a day and a half, two days. Um, or if it's just something I'm sort of interested in or curious about, then there is no way I can, I can hang in for, for 12 hours at a time for days on end. It just doesn't, it doesn't work for me.
Krysia: I completely follow that, Ian.
I guess when I go to conferences, I try and make sure I build in as many breaks as possible. And I guess sometimes that does mean that I miss some panels or activities. And I find sometimes the evening activities that people put on, they might be really, really fantastic and well thought through and help kind of foster community, especially for postgraduates and early career researchers.
But by the end of the day, I'm exhausted. I just need to rest and knowing how to kind of moderate my own kind of energy battery is quite important. And I guess also when I started my PhD, it wasn't COVID. I started in 2018. I went to in person conferences then, um, and then everything just went online. And personally, I found attending stuff online quite useful in terms of it was really good for my kind of own access needs and making sure that I paced myself, but it wasn't quite as good.
Good in terms of going meeting people and talking to people. Um, and just those informal conversations, which I found for me in going, so I often go to conference with one or two colleagues, so I don't go completely on my own so that we can actually support each other and insert kind of insert each other's research interests into conversations.
I often find that's the most useful time for me. Having that peer support to be able to all encourage ourselves. Because I think if I just went panel, panel, panel, panel, panel, I wouldn't, I'd have learnt lots, but I'll be absolutely exhausted. So that's kind of how I manage conferences now.
Zoe: Yeah, and that thing of conferences, it's not just about the content, it is about the sort of social side of things and the networking and meeting people and getting your name out there a little bit.
I don't know. That's something to factor in as well, like, just because you're not going to every single panel, it doesn't mean that you're not still talking to someone at every minute of the day, which can be really draining and exhausting, especially when no one really teaches you the right things to say, or like, how you actually go about some of these networking conversations, and yeah, I know that's something I've found quite difficult, like, not knowing Not having, like, a sort of, okay, this is what I say to this person, and this is how I do this side of conferences, I guess.
Like, no one really teaches you these things, and that can be tiring in itself, trying to work out, like, how I'm meant to act in each situation. I think one of the, like, well, the best conference I think I attended in terms of accessibility was the It Takes All Kind of Minds conference.
Um, yeah. And it's, it was about neurodiversity and you could see that in the way it was set up. There was a lot structured in there for like, um, kind of it being okay if you needed to take a step back or being designated spaces that everyone knew about. Um, and yeah, they also did a hybrid so people could go online or in person.
And yeah, that was a really, really helpful conference.
Ian: I think, I think one of the things that you said about, uh, sort of not knowing how to approach this, not knowing how to go about it is really true. Um, especially because like, you know, I still feel, I still feel guilty about those conferences that I've attended where I've not gone to everything or I've spent significant time in my hotel room because the only pattern I have for thinking about that is like school, I guess, where like, If you're not there, it's because you're skipping school, right?
And you're a truant and possibly criminal, right? So the, this idea that you sort of have to be there is a hard one, I think, to get out of your head. And yet I don't think. I get the impression that that's not a neurotypical expectation, right? That neurotypicals approach this as though it's an opt in model, right?
You go to what you want to go to, and it's there, you're there for the networking, and whatever happens, happens. And yet, that's not a model that I had in my repertoire coming into it, right? That's not, that's not something that I had as an option. And so it's taken time for me to realize, oh, this is, this is how I'm meant to approach it.
Zoe: You're also paying a lot to go to these conferences, so I think it's then hard to get into the mindset of like, oh okay I've paid like however many hundred pounds to attend this, but I don't feel comfortable going to everything, like it's just too much, um, and that's a really hard mindset to actually just like, let yourself be okay with like, getting, like getting the most out of that conference.
For you maybe won't look like going to every single session and that's quite hard when you've paid for it. But I guess it's like assessing what's actually going to be helpful for you. Um, I know for me if I attend every single session at a conference, I won't remember any of it and like because I don't have that time in between to process what I've learned to kind of let it sink in.
So for me it's not actually helpful to go to every session.
Krysia: Same here, and I guess also what Ian was talking about with some of us not necessarily knowing it's an opt out model is really interesting because certainly that's something I felt when I started first going to conferences. It almost seems there's a lot of implicit rules about kind of what is expected of you and it's not.
It's much like some of the other aspects of academic life, like responding to peer reviewers and making posters, there might not be explicitly expectations about what we need to do. I guess the thing I found really helpful, I mean, I, the conference that I found the most helpful and the most useful, I guess, for my career, but also just the most friendly is the BSA Sociology of Religion Study Group Conference.
Basically, I think, because it's It has, although it hasn't, doesn't have necessarily some of the things that it takes all kinds of minds had, which I thought was really good. When it was in person last year at Bristol, there was lots of breakout spaces and I could go and I could just sit with my laptop and get on with something else for half an hour and not feel like I'm sitting in a classroom and blocking up kind of someone else's teaching space or, um, and everybody there was friendly and actually encouraged you to take part as well.
So I guess one thing I found really. Although I guess I enjoy the networking bit, it's actually getting that initial bit in because I get so anxious about approaching people and knowing exactly what to say without a script or what the expectations are, because there's just such a, almost like a ritual in initiating that contact and initiating that those approaches to other more senior academics.
Especially those who you perceive where there is a perceived hierarchy. And I think that's why I quite like the Socrow conference, because it feels a much flatter hierarchical conf flatter conference. It doesn't feel like Professor so and so is doing this, and Reader so and so is doing this with lowly PhD students over here.
It feels a lot more mixed, which is another thing I really appreciated at Ittercom, that it was just so mixed.
Zoe: Yeah, but you know what's so funny about that, Krysia? So I had never met you before ITAKOM, and I remember spotting you, and I was like, Krysia definitely has no idea who I am, because we'd attended like, um, Centre for Autism and Theology stuff together.
And I was like, I really, like, I remember saying to one of our friends, Harry, I was like, I really want to introduce myself to Krysia because we kind of know each other, like, I really think it's cool, like, all the work she does, but I was too scared to for that exact reason because it's so hard to know how to go about that.
I didn't want to be like an absolute weirdo and you're like, who is this? And in hindsight, that's ridiculous. I should have just been like, oh, we vaguely know each other. I'm Zoe. But it's that kind of like, These like that kind of like social anxiety of conferences when you're in a room of loads of people It is hard like it builds up and I think that's when like you're saying It's so helpful when you're in environments where it's okay just to like talk to anyone
Krysia: Yeah, and I guess the other thing I did at ITACOM, which is a little naughty, I put a picture of my cat on my poster for the poster session.
And I found that to be a really good icebreaker because it takes away a lot of the academic convention. People come to you and go, Oh Fudge, she looks so cuddly, she looks so cute. And I'm like, yeah, she's a madam. She won't want to give you a cuddle. She'll let you stroke you, but not give you a cuddle. And it actually just makes, again, took away that hierarchy and made it a lot more informal.
Ian: Think this one of the things that conferences really bring to the fore, uh, especially if you're an early career attendee of a conference or someone who's sort of on the periphery without being an established figure in the field. Can be this idea of imposter syndrome, right?
Like, do I really belong here? Am I, am I, am I really part of this community? Or am I just sort of observing and, and to what degree am I allowed to be involved? Um, and that's like, That's something for an autistic person that's really difficult because none of that is explicit, right? It's never spelled out.
You are welcome here. You are a part of this community. There isn't a sort of moment where the heavens open and the angels sing and you realize I've arrived. Right? Um, and yet most of the time, if you're attending conferences, at least in my experience, the, the people who are there presenting want to engage with people about what it is that they're presenting and, and, and want to hear even from people who aren't necessarily experts.
Now, obviously there are limits to that. I've seen people like try and monopolize the time of a prominent professor for like, you know, hours at a time after they presented that it's like, maybe. Maybe not that much, but this, this imposter syndrome is, I think, a big part of it, and for autistic people in particular, because none of those rules about belonging are ever explicit.
They're just sort of socially implicit. Categories of belonging. I think that I think it's worse for us. I think it's harder to know to what degree can I engage where does the line lie based on where I am in my career, you know,
Krysia: 100 percent agree, especially about the lack of kind of implicit ness as took so much is just what I find is when I present at a conference. I much prefer going to present rather than just going along without anything, because it actually gives me some sort of structured kind of inlet to talk to people, and people then have a structured inlet to come talk to me, whereas if I just go, I don't really know how to go up to people, so then I just end up kind of just bobbing about on my own, which is fine in principle, but obviously if it's one of the bigger ones where you've paid Three to five hundred pounds to go, and it's really big, and you want to make use of the time you have, then, absolutely, You know, having that structured in that it's really helpful.
Zoe: Yeah, and I think tying that, like, both those things of, like, imposter syndrome and presenting together, like, every single conference I've been at that I've not presented at, I've really regretted it. Because I've built it so much in my head beforehand, thinking I'm not going to be as good as other people presenting, my research isn't going to be as good, I'm just going to sound stupid, I'm going to answer the questions really badly.
And then I go, and I think, actually, I could have done this. And then That's something I've learned is like, I'm not good at doing this still, but that kind of like, if I feel like I'm not good enough to present, I probably should present because it's not helpful to have those kind of thought patterns, especially as a PhD student.
Um, and I think that probably is like intersects with like my experience as a PhD student as a dyslexic person and just that feeling of like not being as smart as other people or not knowing as much as other people. And that comes out at conferences, but it can also be a place where you can become slightly more secure in yourself and your own research by presenting and getting that confidence from saying, actually, yeah, I do have something quite cool to contribute.
Um, but it's hard to actually do that.
Krysia: And you know what, I feel the same way with a lot of bursary forms, where you can have kind of the low income ECRs or PhDs, or if you're in your write up year, or if you're an independent researcher, sometimes there'll be funds to help you go to a conference. And it's only this year that I've started applying for these bursary places because I just had such imposter syndrome.
But why would I get picked? Or I don't know how to answer the question. That's that's usually the one I have. It's the questions are too wide. I don't know what they want. I get so stressed and then I don't fill it out. Therefore, I'm then having to use what I used to do last year in the year before that she paid out of my own stipend because there wasn't necessarily the the funding of the institution I'm at because I was part time and all my own fund kind of thing.
funds I had, went on kind of reimbursing participants and all the other parts of my research, that there wasn't necessarily the space for the conference packages, especially where they're quite expensive and I was part time. Um, but actually having that confidence because I've recently just been accepted for two bursaries for two different conferences and six months ago I never would have filled them out because I just didn't think I could do it because Forms my absolute nemesis and I'm sure you both feel exactly the same way.
Zoe: Yep, absolutely. Not fun. And that's also in terms of like calls for papers, because they're not often very clear of what you're actually meant to send. And I didn't realize that you don't need to be massively specific to the topic. Um, And yeah, that's something I found quite hard to navigate as well to begin with, and then I realized you can basically present on wherever you want as long as it kind of ties back to the topic.
But again, no one tells you that.
Ian: I, um, I have one other fun conference story to share that relates to imposter syndrome. I went to a disability ministry conference. Relatively soon after I was diagnosed autistic, um, and was still, you know, I still have moments of imposter syndrome around my diagnosis, right? Like, am I really autistic?
Like, you know? Um, and so I was attending this conference and I, Um, I saw someone, I overheard someone talking about some research that they were doing around autism and theology. And he was, I'll say, someone whose autism presented more stereotypically, right? He was wearing headphones during the conference.
I saw him hand flapping at one point. So like, I knew just by looking at him that he He was autistic. Um, and then I heard him talking about this and I went up to him afterwards and I said, I'm, I'm, would you mind sharing that with me? I'm really interested in this. Cause I I've recently been diagnosed autistic and he looked at me and he said, yeah, I can tell.
I was like, it was just such a, it was such a funny moment for me because like, I, here I was still thinking like, am I really, I don't know it, it, it, this, this is, this makes sense of a lot of things, but I just don't, I don't know if I, if, if I'm comfortable taking on this this label, this, this sort of status, I guess, and, and here's someone who's like, yeah, we recognize our own.
Like, yeah, you're in, you're in the club. It's just like, I think that's what I think that's the way conferences are meant to be. Right. Is that. If you belong there, you belong there, and whether you realize it or not, the people who are there will recognize the value of what it is that you're studying, even if it feels niche, even if it doesn't seem as though this is something that you, that, that, that you don't feel like a heavyweight in the field or something along those lines.
The people who are there to study what it is that conference is about will recognize the value of what it is you're doing.
Krysia: I, I definitely agree. So that was a fantastic conversation and we hope you've gained from our experiences and also horror stories of conferences.
Thank you also to you guys also for listening. It wouldn't be a podcast without you. If you have any questions, you can message us at @autismtheology on Twitter or X as it's now known, or Instagram, or you can send us an cat@abdn.ac.uk. We'd love to hear from you. Any other people who've put cats on their posters as well. We'd love to hear from you as well
our next webinar for the Centre for Autism and Theology will be taking place on the 6th of June and you can find the link to register in the show notes.