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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: Have you ever been trying to solve a problem with other people and found that their contributions are not that helpful? Well, it could be down to the quality of your questions. Our guest on this episode of We, not Me, human Potential and Learning expert, Jeff Wetzler, can help us change that. He talks about his new book Ask so that we can all take simple steps to tap into the expertise of those around us.
[00:00:26] Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
[00:00:33] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.
[00:00:35] Dan: And today's show, Pia, goes quite to the heart of some things that we have spent a lot of our lives trying to improve for ourselves and others, I think, which is about being a little bit more about asking and a bit less about telling. I think that's been a red thread that's run through a lot of our leadership consulting and coaching, hasn't it?
[00:00:55] Pia: Oh, and I think it's also a bit of a thing in life that we sort of seem to want to comment. Now with a full opinion about things and we don't seek to get any understanding. And I think that's, I think the nature of discourse and the nature of conversation in the workplace is depleting. You know, I think that it would be very interesting to get some studies on that. Like, what are we talking about? And how are we talking to one another? Because I think it's become very task orientated and we've lost that ability to ask good quality questions and actually seek to build a broader level of discourse.
[00:01:29] Dan: Yeah. And actually, as the pressure piles on, I think people are feeling, you know, more vulnerable and the precarity continues. I think it seems to drive a need to be more about making statements than having that vulnerability to ask questions. So we're, yeah, we're probably heading slightly in the wrong direction. But the good thing is that our guest today, Jeff Wetzler, has written an amazing book called Ask about this. And in our conversation today, we'll dive into that and see through his research and his really great insights, how we can do a better job of understanding each other.
[00:02:04]
[00:02:08] Pia: And a very warm welcome to you, Jeff.
[00:02:10] Jeff: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:02:11] Pia: It's an absolute pleasure to have you on We Not Me today. And yeah, we are really looking forward to diving into your conversation, your upcoming book, which is very exciting. Prior to that though, you know the drill and I'm going to hand you over to Dan who's going to ask you an excruciating question, which is all part of a, sort of a ploy to get to know you better. I think.
[00:02:33] Dan: It's pretty transparent, isn't it? Now this one we haven't had for a while. It's the best film ever made.
[00:02:41] Jeff: You know, I'll tell you, the first one that jumped into my mind, which is, will tell you something, is a film called Forrest Gump. I don't have like my number one list that I always go to, but that was the first one. And I would say that was one I would watch over and I have watched multiple times.
[00:02:53] Dan: Oh, brilliant. So what what appeals to you about Forrest Gump? Yeah, it's a legendary film,
[00:02:58] Jeff: Of course there is. There's the music. There is the, just the taking you through the eras. Uh, and then I think there is the, you know, there's the most famous line from that movie. Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get. And I think that's really speaks to it's, you know, it speaks to a truth that we, that's, you know, that we all, uh, live by.
[00:03:18] Dan: It's a heartwarming film and that, uh, that little saying is good to have at our side, isn't it? Nice choice, Jeff, and says something about you as well. So let's stay on that theme. Tell us a bit about you, Jeff. What, uh, what's, give us a mini bio.
[00:03:31] Jeff: Yeah. So my professional life has toggled back and forth between the business world and the world of education, uh, and the common through line. Through all of it has been just a real passion for learning, not just my own learning, but developing learning experiences that are deep and powerful and sticky for others, um.
[00:03:53] I started my career in the world of management consulting at a very special place called Monitor Group where I worked for the first decade of my career. And one of the people who brought me to monitor was someone named Chris Argyris, who is a legend in the field of organizational behavior, organizational learning. And he studied why it is that smart and successful people are sometimes the worst at learning, and in particularly the worst at learning from one another. Uh, and he also developed a whole set of tools and methods that really my book builds upon, around how do we help people to get far better at learning from one another, especially when through interactions.
[00:04:31] And then, uh, but in 2015 I launched an organization called Transcend, which is an innovation organization that works with communities across the United States who wanna reimagine what education can be, who wanna build learning experiences for young people that move beyond the industrial factory model that shapes most schools, and that really put kids at the center. Uh, and put kids in charge of their own learning and make learning relevant for the 21st century. And we use, uh, you know, design thinking and participatory methods to support communities to really take themselves on journeys of reinventing what education can be.
[00:05:04] Pia: So what's been some of your major findings and discoveries along the way?
[00:05:09] Jeff: I would say that one of the biggest ones that started at Monitor, but was also very present for me sometimes th the hard way, learning the hard way, was the fact that every single one of us is surrounded by people in our lives, whether that be our colleagues or our managers or people who work for us or clients or you know, investors, who have a treasure trove of insights. They have ideas, they have feedback, they have perspectives that if we knew what they were actually really thinking and feeling, we would be far better off together. We would make better decisions, we would innovate better. We would save time. We would be closer in our relationships. But far too often they don't actually tell us so much of what they're thinking and feeling.
[00:05:54] I learned this originally at Monitor where some of the methods of Chris Argyris who I mentioned earlier, included this methodology he used called the two column case methodology. And what we would do is we would ask people that we were working with to take out a sheet of paper and draw a line down the paper from top to bottom, and on the right hand side just capture some snippets of dialogue from a recent challenging interaction, almost like lines in a play. I said this, she said this, I said. And on the hand side, capture what were you thinking and feeling, but not saying during that dialogue, we call that the left hand column.
[00:06:28] And the left hand columns were so colorful, as you can imagine, and so rich, and once you know, see past some of the, you know, the emotion and the cursing and all that kind of stuff, there was actually so much real information in the left hand column. Things like don't you see why your plan is about to fail? Or here's a, yeah what have you thought about this? Or now you can, you know, I can tell you why you're demotivating your whole team. All these pieces of information that the person who didn't get access to that never actually found out. And I saw that over and over again.
[00:06:56] I also discovered a set of tools for hell to help people learn what's what, you know, what others are really thinking and feeling. But when I left Monitor and I went to Teach for America in my first operating role, and I was managing hundreds of people I thought, you know, I've been trained in this stuff. I know how to ask questions, but it turned out that I also missed a lot of what my own team was thinking and feeling.
[00:07:16] I remember one episode where we had this massive event that was about to implode, that my team knew for months and months was not going well, and no one was telling me, despite the fact that I thought I was asking all the right questions. And thankfully, we got it on course just at the very last minute. Had I known that they were struggling all along, I could have helped them and I would've wanted to help them. But they didn't tell me.
[00:07:37] And so I have both seen this in other people everywhere and suffered from this myself. And so I think p to your question, uh, one of the biggest patterns that I observe is this pattern of unspokenness. What people are actually not sharing with one another and how much richness there is in the unspoken.
[00:07:53] Pia: That, that resonates with me. I had a conversation with someone yesterday who was telling me that whilst they're in the meeting, they have a WhatsApp channel. Which is where all that information goes so that you know, and they're trying to express themselves behind the scenes for the information that they're receiving in the meeting, and then trying to work out what's the best response, I'm not sure entirely functional but there we go.
[00:08:18] Jeff: Think of how muchh energy.
[00:08:19] Dan: You've got, then got three columns, haven't you? The conversation in the room, the WhatsApp, and then The things are not being said in the
[00:08:25] Jeff: That's incredible. Mean, Just think about the psychic burden and the energy to manage all three of those columns and how much is being lost. That's actually not happening in the room.
[00:08:35] Dan: I suspect, Jeff, this is a nice cue to talk about your book and your latest research. So do you want to give us big, it sounds like that's a very nice lead in. So do you wanna give us a, an opening for you paragraphs about, uh, about what you've been up to and what's coming out.
[00:08:50] Jeff: Yeah. So the book is called Ask: Tap Into the Hidden Wisdom of People Around You for Unexpected Breakthroughs in Leadership and Life. And it really starts the whole first section of the book. It's literally called the Unspoken. It starts by shining a spotlight right on this phenomenon and saying there's a lot that people are not telling us. And then goes into what are the top things that people are not telling us.
[00:09:12] One of the most common things that people don't tell us, as I suffered when I, through that story I shared with you is what they're struggling with, what they're up against, what challenges that they're dealing with. All of that stuff often stays hidden and it's too bad because we could really help people if we knew that.
[00:09:26] Uh, a second thing is their observations and feedback for us and how we could do better. What the, you know, how they see us coming across ,the ways that they see us having impact on other people, their, you know, their suggestions for how we could raise our game and be better. That stays unspoken too.
[00:09:43] Third is what they really think about a topic and an issue and why, I mean, so often what they really think is in that WhatsApp chain as opposed to in the meeting. And what they really think and also where that comes from, uh, is often hidden.
[00:09:56] And then I would say the last one is their biggest, wildest, most audacious ideas that could be truly game changing for the team or the organization, but that they think might sound too crazy, uh, to say. So those are four of the most common things that stay stuck in the left hand column. Stay unspoken.
[00:10:13] Dan: So Jeff, what motivates us not to say things? I know you, you mentioned earlier you've been listening to Betina on the show at the end of the last season, and, uh, it possibly relates to that, but what holds us back?
[00:10:25] Jeff: Yeah, I, and so I was really obsessed with this question, especially as a leader who failed to learn things that were relevant. I was thinking to myself, well, why don't people just tell me? Why don't we tell each other? And by the way, these things are so, you know, it's so pervasive that people withhold.
[00:10:38] I came across one research study that said between 60 and 80% of Americans withhold information from their own doctor, information that could help them be healthier. And to your question, when they were asked, well, why didn't you tell your doctor? There were a few reasons. One is, I didn't wanna burden the doctor. I didn't want to be judged. I thought I'd be embarrassed if I told the truth. I didn't wanna waste the doctor's time. All of these are reasons that people withhold information that literally could save their own life.
[00:11:05] And in my own research for this, uh, the number one reason that I found that people withhold from us is they're afraid of the impact of saying what they wanna say, and what they actually believe. It could be that how it's gonna make us upset, it's gonna make us defensive, it's gonna make us judge them, it's gonna put tension into the relationship. All of those are categories of fearing the impact.
[00:11:24] A second barrier that holds people back is sometimes they just don't have the words to say it. They don't know how to express what they're thinking. There's a lot of stuff in people's left hand columns that's toxic and that they know if I say it, it's gonna make things worse, and they just don't know a more constructive way to say it.
[00:11:42] But also sometimes not having the words is more of a mathematical thing. I found this interesting research that says the human mind thinks at 900 words a minute, but can only speak at 125 words a minute. And so just for the math alone means that people are not telling us all that they're thinking because their mouth can't get the words out fast enough. So we're only hearing less than 15% of what's actually going through people's minds, just based on the way that the brain and the math works.
[00:12:06] Some of it is that they worry, they don't have the time. They think, oh, I'm too busy. If I raise it now, then we're gonna have to have a whole conversation about it. It's gonna burden me. But I think the most interesting reason why people don't tell us what they're really thinking is they don't realize, we wanna know. They don't actually believe that we're interested in hearing what they have to say. So those are the top reasons.
[00:12:27] And I would say none of this would be a problem if we could somehow read their minds. If we could just intuit what have, what do other people really think and feel and know. But really fascinating research by Nick Epley and others. Basically says, we're terrible at this. We are really bad at reading other people's minds and knowing what they're really thinking. And some of the most common advice that we get, things like try to put yourself in their shoes does not work. Try to read their body language does not work. The only thing that he found that works, reliably is asking them what's on their mind, what they're actually think and feeling.
[00:13:00] Dan: Just on that one quickly, Jeff. I know I think Pia's played this game with groups when you sort of, if you Are talking to leaders and they're learning management skills and leadership skills, and you sort of in the group say, right, uh, how could you find out if someone's x not very happy or what they're feeling or, or all these things. And it's amazing how many workarounds people can come up with to avoid asking the question.
[00:13:24] Jeff: That is really interesting.
[00:13:26] Pia: And, I mean, and do we also, do we fear upsetting people with that information? So whilst we're not being asked, I think sometimes the recipient is worried about how, what they might say might land and then the impact it might have on them, their career, you know, their position. I think there is a little bit of, there's a moment of thinking, you know, if I tell them, is it gonna be worth it or is it gonna make my life more difficult?
[00:13:51] Jeff: I do think people make that calculation. They say, what are the chances that they're going to hear it? What are the chances it's gonna land well? What are the chances it's gonna make a difference? And I, and compare that with what is the risk to me and what is the time cost to me and what's the emotional cost to me? And they, and there's a trade off.
[00:14:06] Dan: So it sounds like there's a sort of mixture, in terms of barriers, thinking about the doctor and those other things. There's a mixture between fear, which is that one, what will the reaction be and consideration, which is maybe it won't be good for the other. So it's either, this might not be good for me, or it might not be good for them.
[00:14:21] Jeff: Or it might not be good for us in our
[00:14:23] Dan: Yeah, together. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I'm guessing that it's not as easy as saying. Just tell me what you're really thinking. So how do you go about just borrowing into this to see what's in that left hand column?
[00:14:35] Jeff: Yeah, so this is the heart of the book. And I introduce a methodology that I call the Ask approach. And the Ask approach is five practices, all of which are based in research, that, and tested in practice that when put together, give us the greatest possible chance of truly learning from the people around us.
[00:14:54] Number one is choosing curiosity. And so if we can't really ask questions if we're not genuinely curious, and if we try, people will see through that. And so I'm posing the, possibility that curiosity is not a trait that some people have and other people don't, or a state of mind that we might be in, but curiosity is a choice. It's a decision that is always available to us. And when we make that decision, what we're doing is we're putting at the center of our minds. One single question, which is, what can I learn from this person? What do, what do they have to teach me? And inside that question are all kinds of other questions. Like, what do they know that I don't know? What experiences have they had that might be interesting to me? What might I be missing? How am I impacting them in ways that I can't see? There's all kinds of things that we can learn from other people, and when we center that question what can I learn from this person that helps to awaken the curiosity.
[00:15:48] And it's not the kind of curiosity that is like, what's the history of Russia? Or why is, why do trees grow this way? I call it connective curiosity. It's the kind of curiosity that's the curiosity about the thoughts and feelings and experiences of other people. And when we live into this curiosity, it actually creates a connection between us and the other person. So all of that is number one, choosing curiosity.
[00:16:08] So then no matter how curious we are, if the other people don't feel safe to tell us what they really think, feel, and know we're not gonna learn from them. And you know, Pia, to your point about the calculations people make, if they're thinking it's too risky or they might fire me or they might judge me or whatever, it doesn't matter how curious I am.
[00:16:26] And so number two is called make it safe. And this is really all about lowering those barriers and helping people change the equation so it feels more appealing than risky to tell us what they really think, feel, and know. In many ways, this builds off of the research of Amy Edmondson on psychological safety at the organizational level and says, what does that look like at the interpersonal level?
[00:16:46] And there's various things that we can do to make it safe, to help other people feel more comfortable. Some of that has to do with even just the place and space of connecting. I interviewed iconic CEOs for the book, and CEOs are notorious for being insulated from the truth. And I said to them, how did you, how do you actually learn from other people? And the first thing that they said is if I wanna learn from someone deep in my organization, I'm never going to invite them into my office and make them sit across the big CEO desk from me, and assume that they're going to feel safe and comfortable. I'm gonna go to them. We're gonna have lunch together, we're gonna go in their car, and we're gonna go on a sales ride together. We're gonna sit on a couch, take a walk.
[00:17:22] So even the space and place of connection matters, and there's no single right answer to this other than to say whatever makes the other person most comfortable is the right answer. And some of that involves asking them that question. So some of it's that some of it is before we just launch into the questions we need to share ourselves, we need to open up, we need to explain, here's why I'm asking the question. Here's why you can help me. Here's what I'm uncertain about. Even, here's something that I might feel vulnerable about as well to introduce that reciprocity.
[00:17:48] And then I also talk about this idea of radiating resilience. We need to. Just tell and demonstrate through our actions to other people that we can handle their truth. That if they tell us something hard, we're not going to crumble, we're not going to punish them, we're not gonna hold them responsible for our own reactions that we are radiating that kind of resilience. And so those are some different strategies that are all part of making it safe.
[00:18:10] Once we've done that. The next piece is the heart of the Ask approach, which is what I call pose quality questions. And quality questions. I distinguish quality questions versus crummy questions. Quality questions are simply questions that help us learn something important from someone else. Crummy questions are all those things that we say that have a question mark at the end, but are not really questions. Those might be things like when I tell you my view and then I say, isn't that right? Or I say, don't you think we should do this? Or attack questions like, why would you ever do that? They all, we use questions all the time in ways that are not quality.
[00:18:43] But quality questions, I kind of think of the same way that I would think a surgeon might look at all of their different tools and scalpels and instruments to say, I have a whole repertoire, a whole taxonomy, a whole set of things that I can draw upon depending on what I'm trying to get to. And so in this part of the Ask approach, I introduced that taxonomy and I say, what are some of the most overlooked question strategies that can really help us learn from other people?
[00:19:05] Uh, and just to give you one example, one strategy is called request reactions. And that's simply to say to someone, you know, here's what I think. What's your reaction to that? What does that make you think? How does that land with you? What might I be missing? What thoughts does that prompt for you? And so often I think we, we don't do that because we assume, well, if they have a reaction, they're gonna tell me their reaction. But especially if they're not feeling safe, if we don't actually request their reactions, chances are we're not gonna get their reactions. We might get a head nod, we might get a, you know, maybe. But if we really wanna know, not just what do they think, but what do they think about our thinking? We've gotta request reactions in that way. And so that's just one of the many different strategies in the taxonomy.
[00:19:45] Dan: And Jeff, it is, it seems like there's a subtle difference between, requesting reactions, the way you've posed it is a little bit different from what you think of that thing I've just said. It seems that you are digging for something a bit more emotional than a rational sort of, yeah, it's a good idea. It sounds like there's a wording there that's going to just get below the skin. Is that right?
[00:20:07] Jeff: Right, and in particular, I'm trying to create an opening for disconfirming reactions. So often when we say, you know, does that make sense? Or What do you think of that? People will just be like, yeah, that's pretty, that's okay, I could go along with that, or whatever, but I want to, I want the totality of what they're really thinking and feeling. And so I'm trying to construct a question that is really enabling the fullness of their experience, whether that's a thought, a feeling, an intuition that they have in it. So that's number, that's that's number three.
[00:20:33] And number four is basically what happens after we ask the question, which is we have to listen. And so four is called listen to learn. And listening to learn. It's very different than listening to respond, listening to look good, listening to prove a point, uh, listening to get back at the other person. It's really a very particular intention that we're setting, which is to really learn from the other person. And when we listen to learn, we're trying to hear what's most essential that the other person is saying and not saying.
[00:21:02] And one of the best ways we can do that is to. Broaden the range of information that we're taking in. And so I talk about three channels that we need to listen through. One channel is the channel of content. What are the facts? What are the data? What is the information? What are the claims that they're making? That's my personal go-to, and what I think I, a lot of us have been trained to do when we listened. But really, that's only one channel.
[00:21:25] A second channel is the channel of emotion. What are the feelings that are being expressed? What are the feelings that are being displayed in the conversation? And a third is the channel of action. What actions are people taking, uh, in a conversation? Maybe they're repeating themselves, maybe they're pushing back, maybe they're offering support, maybe they're asking for help. Those are all different kinds of actions, and when we can be listening and observing and seeing, oh, these are actions they're taking, and so we've got content, emotion, actions, we get we essentially triple the range of information that we take in.
[00:21:56] And I think about it a little bit the way that I think musicians think about, you know, I can listen for the harmony, I can listen for the percussion, I can listen for the vocals. And when I train myself to hear, he showed these different aspects of the music, and then I put it back together. I just have such a richer sense of what's actually happening. And the same thing is true in listening.
[00:22:14] Pia: And you, you're also looking for distance because you might end up with, you know, somebody telling you something, but what's written on their face, what's, what their emotion is, or their their degree of efficacy about wanting, to be in action. They can all be mismatched. So sometimes you are as the listener looking for the answer you want and then shutting down the conversation 'cause it kind of fits. That's not helpful.
[00:22:39] Jeff: I totally agree. And when you start to distinguish these three channels, exactly, to your point, Pia, you can ask yourself, are they congruent or are they dissonant? And if they're dissonant, that's something to get curious about. You know, hearing you say this, but when I look at your eyes, I'm wondering, how are you feeling about this? What's going on? We can actually make that part of the inquiry that we ask as well.
[00:22:59] And then the fifth, fifth step of the Ask approach is my favorite. It's called Reflect and Reconnect. And it's my favorite because as I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, my biggest passion in life is learning. And it's reflection that enables us to convert experiences into real learning. Because it's reflect, you know, we can have an experience, but if we don't process it in some way. Reliable to miss the meaning. And I think a lot of people think reflection is mysterious or hard to do or something that you have to go on a meditation retreat to do, but it can actually be very practical.
[00:23:31] And in the book I introduced a methodology called Sift it and Turn it to help us reflect. Sift it is just simply to say, you know, if I heard a hundred things from someone, which are the three that are most important, and what are the rest that I can let go? Because they're not all gonna be equally important and I can't pay attention to everything. And so sifting it is really zeroing in on what matters most. And then turning it is just asking ourselves three reflective questions. We turn it over three times in our minds.
[00:23:53] The first is to say, based on what's most important, what can I adjust or learn about the story I've got going on in this situation? The story about myself or the other person, or the issue happening here. The second is based on how I'm adjusting my story, what steps can I take? Maybe I want to apologize, maybe I want to double down on my strategy, maybe I want to try something new. And then the third is what I call the stuff level reflection. This is the deeper reflection on our deeper stuff. Is there anything here that would shed light on some of the deeper assumptions I'm holding or biases or ways of being, or my worldviews? And so we can sift it and then turn it. And it's often helpful to get a thought partner to help us do this so we're not doing this reflection inside our own bubble of assumptions.
[00:24:35] But I then call it reflect and reconnect because the reconnect part is equally important. That's the closing of the loop, that's going back to the other person and saying thank you for sharing that. Here's what I heard and here's what I learned and here's what I'm gonna do about it. And by the way, you know, did I get it right? And how does that match what you were hoping that I would learn from this as well?
[00:24:56] And I think it's extremely rare. To have to have that happen. How, you know, how rare is it that someone will actually come back to us and say, I learned from you and here's what I learned and here's what I'm gonna do, and thank you. And so it just has this amazing impact, I think, on the relationship, which is that it lets the other person really see how much you value them. It gives them a chance to correct what you took away. And I think it really radically increases the chances that they're gonna wanna share with you over time, because they realize they're not wasting their time. You take them seriously. And so it, it essentially deepens the entire relationship.
[00:25:28] Dan: Just because most of these aren't isolated, sort of set peace conversations, they're part of an ongoing, uh, ongoing relationship. So each one is, can be used as a stepping stone, or equally, if you do it badly, it can be used to sort of send you back to, uh, go straight to jail or go yeah, go to the start again.
[00:25:45] Pia and I've spent a lot of time with groups helping them to ask better questions, but I really think you've created something research-based, pragmatic and fresh here. So I'm, I've really enjoyed your going through those. You've mentioned a couple of episodes that you've listened to in the past, but, and last season we had Bastian Overgaard on the show talking about the power of silence, and we sort of, despite the fact that everything we do is about talking we found that sometimes talking is itself problematic. You mentioned the sort of rate of thinking versus speaking, but how we are, Bastian said that these conversations are often actually multitasking. We are hearing, thinking, processing, thinking about the thing to say next. Do you have it without having to sit in silence? Are there any tips you have for sort of trying to help us to process all of this stuff that's coming at while we ask these things?
[00:26:36] Jeff: I do talk about this in the book, in the section on listening to learn, because I think that, uh, uh, well I actually talk about the Quaker religion. And uh, I had the opportunity to spend about 10 summers of my life in a Quaker camp. And so I learned a lot about the appreciation for silence and the ways in which, uh, silence can actually almost be a member of the group, uh, and how much can come out of silence. And so, uh, it is truly magical.
[00:27:03] In the chapter on Listening to Learn, I talk about various strategies to use, and one of them is called Shut the Heck Up and allow that silence to be there. I have a mentor of mine who literally writes that at the top of her pad. When she goes into a meeting, she just reminds herself, shut the heck up in order to just allow that silence to be there, because sometimes in the silence more will come out than if we just try to probe and ask and react and so on.
[00:27:25] Pia: And what's the impact? What do you finding the impact for leaders when they are adopting this, so what are they able to create for the people that they lead?
[00:27:34] Jeff: So the there's three kinds of impacts that I have seen that, uh, I think are profound. One is impact related to just results. Better results. They avoid mistakes. They find out before it's too late where their plan was gonna go awry. They get better ideas from people and so they can innovate better. All of that, I think comes directly out of tapping into the collective intelligence of their teams and organizations to get better results.
[00:27:58] The second impact is relationships. When we give people a chance to tell us what they really think, feel, and know, this is not about us just doing something that's extractive for ourselves. This is mutual. It creates mutual benefit. It allows them to be more self-expressed. It lets them know how much we value them and care about them. It gives us new insights about each other. And all of that really deepens and transforms relationships.
[00:28:21] And the third impact is the impact of learning and growth, because when I hear from you your thoughts of what I'm doing well and what I could do better, when I hear your provocations and challenges to me, when I learn about how I'm coming across to you and the impact I'm having on you, that all gives, and then when I reflect on it, all that gives me a chance to grow. So I would say results, relationships, and growth.
[00:28:42] Dan: It is. It is. It's fantastic. And Jeff, you, you mentioned earlier that you'd had this situation where, with this project, which got near the end with your team, with the unspoken word. What in that situ, looking back, which of these five or combination do you think would've saved you?
[00:28:59] Jeff: Make it safe, undoubtedly. Um, I was blind to the power of my position, and the identity and how my identity was playing out. And I actually was curious. I thought I think I was asking good questions. I was ready to listen, but I didn't make it safe for people to actually tell me their truth. And that it was actually that experience and other experiences around that time that helped me to see that we can't use these tools if we're not accounting for psychological safety as well.
[00:29:25] Pia: Which is the bedrock. I mean, that, I think that is the bedrock of all of relationships, particularly within groups because and that's what we've heard time and time again, people hold back. And there's a big cost. There's a big cost to the relationship. There's a big cost to the outcome. And yeah, so that, that's a, I think that power of position is, is really important.
[00:29:45] Jeff: It can be so easy to think, you know, who would be intimidated by me? I'm, you know, I'm just a schmuck who I'm in. I'm insecure. I've got my own problems. Like I would be the least intimidating person you should meet, but that's not necessarily how other people experience us.
[00:29:57] Dan: That's great. So Jeff, where would you think someone could start here? What's an easy place where someone might get some quick wins if they wanted to, without trying to take on all five. Obviously they should buy your book and they should read it and they should start to implement it, but there's was something in there that, that could give people a fast start in changing their habits around this, what would you recommend?
[00:30:17] Jeff: So I encourage people to think about, for them in particular, which of the five practices is gonna make the biggest difference. On the website, I actually have a little assessment where people can find out which one are they stronger in, which one do they need to grow in as and so there's, that can help you zero in and where you wanna start.
[00:30:34] But if I were to pick out one concrete thing, if there was just one thing that I would say for people, everyone could try this. And we would all be better off if we all did this, it would be inside of Listen to learn, there's a strategy that I call paraphrase and test. And that's just simply saying back to the other person, this is what I think I heard you say. Is that what you meant? To, you know, how well did I get it, what you're saying?
[00:30:55] That strategy alone could clear up so much because so often, I mean, when I do that strategy, at least 50% of the time. The other person says, well, no, not exactly, or, yeah, that's right. But then there's more, or you know, that kind of thing. And so doing that, it has so many benefits. We, one benefit is it just slows down the conversation. We can all take a breath and take a beat. Two is it actually signals to the other person how much I care about them because I'm taking the time to literally say it back to you and then check that I get it right. And three, of course, it increases the chances I'm really gonna hear them right.
[00:31:27] Dan: Yeah. I was in a call this morning with someone and he used that exact phrase and it just stood out as being, I thought, whoa this is this guy's good. And it was, yeah, I had all of those impacts that you're talking about. So yeah, really interesting. Literally today it happened, so.
[00:31:42] Jeff: I have a mentor, Phil MacArthur who actually studied teams and what he found that distinguished the higher performing teams versus the lower performing teams was the frequency with which people paraphrased and just checked did they understand one another?
[00:31:54] Dan: So Jeff, one final question from us, and it's about, it's our sort of, you know, a book recommendation. Obviously the details of your book will be in the show notes and, uh, hopeful people will go, I'm sure they will want to get their hands on that, but what from you, a book or a media recommendation, a podcast series, what's some?
[00:32:11] Jeff: So there's a new book that just came out last month by Diana McLean Smith called Remaking the Space Between Us. Diana has been one of my most influential mentors over the years, and she is essentially taking a lot of the same material and applying it at the level of society and democracies. And she's basically saying if we could all learn from one another, what would it look like to start to bridge the polarization that we're seeing in our country and around the world, to heal the divides? And it's just a brilliantly written book of very accessible essays on that topic.
[00:32:43] Pia: Very timely too. We need a bit of bridging.
[00:32:47] Dan: We definitely do. Jeff, thank you so much for being on the show today and um, just bringing this really amazing work. And I have to say the listeners won't be able to see you, but I can see looking at the listening to learn, you've been, you've been congruent, totally congruent about this, so I can tell that you are really committed to this and very happy to be talking about it and, uh, it's been a joy to have you on the show
[00:33:09] Jeff: I've really enjoyed the conversation and I love your podcast, so thank you for having me on it.
[00:33:16] Pia: What I found interesting was listening to Jeff, was a number of the things that he talked about. Well, we have been talking about that. It's not sort of trying to up ourselves here, but they weren't brand new. It's not like Woo-hoo, never heard of curiosity. It's actually really interesting because a lot of these concepts have been around for some time, but he brought them all together. He packaged it really well, and made it really pragmatic so that it could be used by anyone. So it was actually really valuable to see it all under one house as it is.
[00:33:53] Dan: Absolutely. And I, I, I think that's quite telling and actually in a way reassuring that we can stop looking for some magic bullet coming outta the research or science or some amazing question that we can just ask everyone. The thing is that it's, it's a sort of an eternal art, I suspect that since the days of Aristotle and before that a lot of these things have been around us and done well or done poorly. But I really like, as you say, that packaging of these things, this is genuinely a step forward in the way that he's brought this together and, uh, with a lovely spirit as well. I think it's such a positive approach.
[00:34:28] Pia: I, I did like his quality versus crummy questions. And, And that was a great professor. Taught me about that. The quality of the questions creates the quality of the conversation. And you really do have to think hard. So in that curiosity, you frame your questions to dig deep into somebody's psyche or thoughts or experience in a way that pulls out some new information. Whereas crummy questions are just kind of easy to get away with.
[00:34:56] Dan: Yeah, definitely. And I saw when I was at TEDx, uh, not so long ago I saw Charles Duhigg speaking and he has a book, not nearly as deep as this, but he's talking about ask deep questions. And he, his question that he gets people to, he challenges people to ask is when did you last cry in front of someone? It's a real belter and, uh, it elicits, as you say, so much more.
[00:35:20] And actually in our, in my social. Dealings now. I'm really trying to avoid those. So how the kids, you know, these sort of really sort of procedural sort of everyday questions and trying to ask that. So, you know, and his, he said, you know, instead of saying, so where did you go to university? You know, what did you most love about university? What really, where did you hit your challenges? You know, there's a same question, but just framed in a more interest, a deeper way. I think that's the quality of the question needs to be definitely raised. But it's a, it's an absolute practice that, isn't it? I find myself asking some very poor questions sometimes.
[00:35:56] Pia: I thought it was interesting about the position of power and making it safe, and really reminding ourselves that when you have any type of title, it does shift the dynamic. And, you know, we've had that as a bit of a repetitive theme in these podcasts, you know, where people aren't, are choosing not to speak up. So I think we've gotta be really cognizant of that and, uh, and remind ourselves, and particularly if there is vulnerability, and there is stress in the system, that will amplify. So making it safe.
[00:36:24] And I think sometimes self-deprecating humor is a fantastic way of doing that. You know, just taking the mick out of yourself a little bit and actually just helping people to even just to laugh a little bit, to, to feel comfortable. I think that's such a great way to warm up a conversation and warm up the space between you.
[00:36:45] Dan: Agreed. I think that's good. And my final thought for me is that I just liked that it's sort of how you ready yourself for a good conversation is to ask, what can I learn from this person? I have to say, I think our default state very often is, how can I look good in front of this person? How can I make my, my own point, get my own point across? And a lot, actually, a lot of the reading you do in business books is about when people talk about communication, they're talking about outbound. How do you impress other people and perhaps your personal brand? Whereas I love that, I felt like that's an opening of a door, isn't it? To say, what can I learn from this person? As you go into the, into it, it was, yeah. So I thought that was very refreshing, actually.
[00:37:26] But that is it for this episode. We not Me, is supported by Squadify. Squadify gets your people working as a team and delivering more. You can find show notes where you are listening and at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. We Not Me, is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:37:47] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.