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Welcome to The 1909, the podcast that takes an in-depth look at The State News’ biggest stories of the week, while bringing in new perspectives from the reporters who wrote them.
It's Wednesday, February 12, and this is the nineteen o nine, state news weekly podcast featuring our reporters talking about the news. I'm your host, Alex Walters. This week, Michigan State's precarious politicking continues. Despite federal attacks, university leaders are doubling down on diversity, equity, and inclusion and guiding faculty on how to protect undocumented students. They're also striking deals with constituencies closer to home, giving a new post to a controversial former dean, and once again negotiating with persistent protesters on the divestment issue.
Alex:Here to talk about it are our new administration reporters or one new, one old administration reporters. Emilio, Owen, thanks for coming back on the show.
Owen:Thanks for having us.
Emilio:For having us, Alex.
Alex:You guys covered a crazy week last week of Michigan State both in these sort of local issues and responding to federal issues, trying to maintain a balance amid what are some threats from protesters, federal actors. This is a, you know, dangerous environment for universities. They're having a hard time navigating it, and MSU seems to be walking a careful line. Tell me, Owen, an illustrative scene of the kind of thing that MSU is dealing with these days. You covered a board meeting last week after all of this talk of DEI, DEI.
Alex:There's executive orders. There are changes in the federal government, and there was this was addressed head on. Tell me about what is this DEI issue that MSU's been facing, and what did they say about it at this kind of pivotal meeting?
Owen:Yeah. Exactly. So diversity, equity, inclusion programs and measures, kind of from the outset of Donald Trump's presidential campaign was was something that he kinda wanted to go after. And so right when he takes office, one of the first actions he takes actually was an executive order that was ending all DEI programs in the federal government. Right?
Owen:Narrowly the federal government. But that move was sort of seen largely as a signal of what's to come next. Right? And so, yes, this one's specifically about the federal government, but, you you know, more stuff is coming. Right?
Owen:Sure enough, more stuff did come. Emilio did did a story shortly after that, based on another executive order, which was Trump was essentially asking federal agencies to find him nine potential civil compliance investigations into corporations, universities with endowments over 1,000,000,000, which MSU would fit, basically asking them to look for investigations into these places, who aren't really adhering to these these two who who aren't in compliance with the DEI sort of crackdown and
Alex:stuff. We've we've talked about this in the show before, but basically saying pretty openly, like, I don't know exactly what enforcement mechanism I have to make universities stop doing this DEI stuff, but I'm gonna order my people in my cabinet to get out there and find me, you know, a stick I can use to kinda, like, beat this DEI stuff out of these universities I don't have direct control over.
Owen:Yeah. Exactly. And so MSU at that point sort of became a potential target because they do fit that category of an endowment over 1,000,000,000. And so then after that, you start seeing these, instances where MSU has these events scheduled. Well, the first was a future of DEI policy at MSU panel discussion.
Owen:And this was gonna have MSU's chief diversity officer administrators sort of talking about, what the ramifications of executive orders like that might be. They had this scheduled, and then kind of a week before it was supposed to happen, they canceled it. And they cited sort of uncertainty and concerns over the, the executive orders. Though they said that really what the intent was was to kinda make sure they had long enough to kinda look over these things and review them so that they could articulate it, as best as possible. Right?
Owen:And then after that, there was a Lunar New Year cultural event, that was also canceled, kinda citing the same reasons. But but that was sort of met with an immediate kind of backlash across campus as an example of sort of, complying in advance to some of these DEI orders. And kind of the reaction was, I'm pretty sure we could have had the the Lunar New Year event and been okay even though there's this, sort of hostility from the Trump administration. But, of course, the when they canceled it, they sort of cited concerns from students. And we still haven't gotten a ton of clarity as far as who those students were, how many there were.
Alex:So what did they say? Board meeting last week, all the university's leaders together in one room. You wrote a story about the things they said about DEI. They've canceled these events. They're subject of these executive orders.
Alex:They kinda set the tone and, like, okay, going forward, this is how we wanna handle this DEI stuff that is now under so much threat.
Owen:Yeah. Exactly. So so after all, you know, these weeks of sort of uncertainty around this and even some questions about to what extent is MSU committed to DEI DEI given the cancellation of the events. The very first thing president Kevin Guskwitz says when when he starts his president's report right at the start is, well, he says, I wanna wish everyone a happy new year and to those that celebrated a happy lunar new year, which obviously kinda takes on a new significance given the cancellation of the event. And then right after that, he says, our international students and scholars bring with them such diverse traditions and add so much to our cultural tapestry here at MSU.
Owen:He then goes on to congratulate recent recipients of MSU's excellence in DEI awards. And then, you know, he he specifically said we're experiencing a changing federal landscape here, referring to Trump, but said that, you know, in the midst of all that, for him, when when I when I asked him in the presser, afterwards, after the meeting, he said, what I've been consistent in saying is that it won't be a choice here. We will be an inclusive community and one that will always aspire toward the equity part. Yeah. And then we heard similar sentiments from from board members.
Owen:In fact, I I would say there was a sort of, consensus, at this meeting that DEI is something that matters to MSU as an institution.
Alex:Mhmm. And then what about Emilio? You know, DEI, it seems like there are these threats federally. MSU cancels these events, but now MSU's backtracking this cancellation saying, no. No.
Alex:No. No. We are committed to this DEI stuff. What about the immigration issue? Because this is something that Trump has tried to go after, affecting directly college students who are undocumented.
Alex:And MSU in the past, I guess, the university and the surrounding city of East Lansing have been on these lists of, like, sanctuary cities that are trying to be accommodating to undocumented people that, like, federal, immigration law enforcement might be trying to deport under Trump. Tell me about, what is Trump doing that would have people worried who are undocumented on campus? And what has MSU said to faculty in this guidance that you reported on about what faculty are supposed to do and what administrators are supposed to do amid all of this?
Emilio:Yeah. So absolutely. You know, throughout the campaign, right, Trump kind of campaigned on this idea that he was gonna do this largest deportation operation in US history. Right? And that he was gonna mobilize ICE to really go after a lot of undocumented people, in The US.
Emilio:And then, you know, on the first I think it was the second day of the administration, the Department of Homeland Security, which is responsible for running ICE, rescinds these guidelines, these Biden era guidelines that have sort of, like you said, placed college air college campuses in a sort of protected area status in in which ICE couldn't really operate without further permission from either their higher ups or the Department of Homeland Security. And so this really has opened up college campuses to have ICE on their campuses in a way that they hadn't really had to worry about beforehand.
Alex:So there are federal rules protecting MSU anymore from the
Emilio:ice coming on campus. MSU is essentially treated like any other public space now. Mhmm. And so, you know, MSU when we have these conversations about what MSU can do, it's important to note that because, you know, federal law enforcement just has more jurisdiction, over the country. They don't need to ask permission, for example, to come on to a university campus.
Emilio:They don't need to ask MSU. And so when we talk about things like, you know, MSU being a sanctuary campus or East Lansing being a sanctuary camp or city. Usually, what that means is that either MSU police or East Lansing police, have a sort of condition where they won't cooperate with federal law enforcement trying to, detain people solely for their immigration status.
Alex:And I've also seen stuff about MSU's policies that, like, almost the same way, like, medical amnesty would protect your in like, interactions with, like, a hospital if you're, like, doing drugs that are illegal. If you have some sort of, like, illegal immigration status, like you're undocumented, MSU police has essentially said, like, if you're a witness to a crime or you're reporting a crime or something, we're not gonna inquire about your immigration status in your interactions with us. So, like, you can still access those resources even if you are undocumented. Mhmm.
Emilio:Right. MSU police has said that it doesn't question people about specifically their immigration status. And kinda getting to this resource aspect of it all, you know, in in past week, MSU sort of announced via an internal email and now that's been shared to the rest of campus just what are those resources available to, available to, particularly, you know, anyone, but specifically undocumented students or faculty or even staff. Some of that includes, you know, ASMSU or the College of Law. They both offer certain legal services.
Emilio:The College of Law runs an immigration law clinic that people can access. And then there's also
Owen:A ASMSU has its student legal services. Right?
Emilio:Right. Exactly. And then there's certain you know, they also make clear that, for example, FERPA, right, which protects students' privacy. You know, the university isn't able to share that sort of thing unless they're provided with a sort of legal warrant or something that would sort of force them to
Alex:share that information. Nice inquiry. MSU would rely on FERPA to not give out student info unless there's, like, some sort of warrant overriding it.
Emilio:Exactly. They would kind of point to that first. And then unless shown a warrant, then they would have to comply.
Alex:I mean, sharing this guidance almost seems to represent in the same way that we talked about, like, this doubling down on DEI. I'm assuming maybe it's less empowered in this area because, like, the federal government doesn't have some sort of, like, law enforcement remedy to DEI, but with undocumented students. I mean, it feels like kind of, again, MSU is saying, like, yes. Like, the federal government would like us to operate differently, but here are the ways that we can still operate the way we wanna operate, amid these threats, which I think is interesting. Right?
Owen:Yeah. When like like we said, when you've got MSU's president talking about, you know, our international students and scholars bring so much to our cultural thorough guidance about how we can how MSU can sort of, in a sense, protect people unless they're really legally forced.
Alex:That reference in his remarks at the board meeting was a reference to this this immigration stuff, the idea that he would, like, open the meeting by saying how much international students are bringing to MSU?
Owen:I I mean, I don't wanna go so far as to say that that's what he was thinking, but but I certainly I I am confident in saying that I see a link there between these things.
Alex:And then what about Emilio? Let's shift now. We've talked about the way that MSU is sort of, like, bucking these federal trends. Right? Tell me about we're gonna get into these constituencies that MSU has long dealt with here at home.
Alex:Sanjay Gupta. We've talked about him on the nineteen o nine. He was the dean of the Broad College. Very successful in moving the Broad College up in the rankings. He courted one of the biggest donations in MSU history, was a big part of the twenty fourteen capital campaign, and then he's ousted by, then the provost.
Alex:She's shortly after became the interim president because he does not report, sexual, misconduct by one of his professors at this Broad event, and he's a mandatory reporter. He failed that obligation. And he he had a lot of supporters who said that that was unfair. That was a disproportionate, firing, basically, that he should have just gotten some training or a slap on the wrist. He shouldn't have been fired for it.
Alex:He files this lawsuit against MSU saying that this is all this, like, succession plot where Woodruff, the provost, fired him for the mandatory reporting failure because she was scared he would be the next president instead of her. And this has now become this years long fight with people yelling at board meetings and a lawsuit and all sorts of that. You wrote this week, Gupta thing is resolved. Kevin has sort of ended this in a way. What what is the the resolution to this fight between this controversial former dean and MSC's administration and board?
Emilio:Right. So, you know, two things happened last week. Right? One is you're you're right. The settlement of this lawsuit that had been going on for two years, and then simultaneously, right, Kevin announced that the sort of, the Gupta would be leading or co leading, this new initiative he calls the the Green and White Council, which is sort of like a business council meant to help Michigan State meet Michigan's workforce demands going into the future.
Emilio:And so, you know, what we come to figure out is that Gupta coming to lead this council is actually one of the terms of the settlement of this lawsuit.
Alex:And to be clear, we haven't seen the full settlement yet. We're still waiting on that through a public records records request. Yeah.
Emilio:But it was confirmed to me via a university spokesperson that that was something included in the settlement. Yeah. And so Gupta now is gonna, you know, get to lead this council alongside a former executive from Bank of America. And, again, it's a little unclear as to what the council will exactly be doing, but he's get being given, you know, after being ousted right from his dean position, now being given a new leadership position within the university.
Alex:Yeah. I mean, you know, this is widely announced. We all got the press release and they, you know, a lot of media covered it of, like, this new new MSU business council is gonna be led by Sanjay Gupta. It makes no reference of or at least the press release doesn't make any reference to, you know, why he was ousted from MSU a couple years ago. So it's interesting.
Alex:Kind of, like, welcome back into the fold with the settlement and given this, I mean, I don't know how much this post really means atop this council. I guess we'll see whether it's just kind of a thing that's there, whether it's thing that really does a lot of work and has great influence. But it's certainly a a concession to someone who was, you know, ousted a couple years ago and has a lot of supporters here on this campus.
Owen:Emilio, can you tell me, are are these leaders of the green and white council, are are they paid?
Emilio:I actually don't know if they're paid right now.
Alex:Alex, do
Owen:you know?
Alex:I don't I think it's just an advisory council. I I can't imagine that there's a compensation. But, again, I mean, we're waiting on the full terms of the settlement. Maybe in addition to this, there's some sort of compensation to him, like a just like a dollar amount Yep. But the settlement I know previously he said he's not interested in money, I think, at one point.
Alex:At one point, it was people are saying he needs to be Dean again, and that's the only way they'd settle it. But, obviously, I mean, Brode selected, a new Dean through, like, an open cert or a closed search process earlier this year or last late last year. So that's not really on the table. But it's interesting. You know, it's kinda like another one of these very precarious issues MSU's been dealing with for years.
Alex:This seems to be putting a bow on it and, kind of tying it up at this point. And then, Owen, I want you to tell me about, in addition to this deal with Sanjay Gupta, another sort of deal was struck last week with divestment protesters. This is a constituency that MSU has been dealing with for more than a year now, kind of continually protest, deal, deal, falls apart, protest, deal. Yeah. Where another phase of this.
Alex:But, again, this is another one of these issues that MSU has walked a very careful line on. Mhmm. You and I have written pretty extensively about it. Yeah. Tell me about give us the briefest rundown you can on the year or so of divestment stuff that's come before.
Alex:And then tell me about, you know, what is this new phase, this new deal? What happened on Friday at this meeting Yeah. That prompted the shift? Yeah.
Owen:So you're right. There's been kind of a long back and forth that I think as time has gone on, it's become increasingly clear that, MSU is not gonna divest. Mhmm. And I think they've, at this point, taken a pretty firm stance there.
Alex:This is an investment issue we've talked about extensively with, an Israeli bond Yeah. Weapons manufacturers, students upset about the conflict in Gaza and feeling as if MSU is sort of a part of Israel's actions there.
Owen:Right. Exactly. And, of course, you know, what you're saying there, that argument has been kinda countered by MSU in lots of ways, saying the way that the money is flowing is so that now we're just getting, like, repaid, basically. And so our money is not actively going toward Israel.
Alex:Is it the argument that this very old bond, if anything, money is flowing from Israel to MSU paying it back, not the other way around?
Owen:Yeah. Yep. That that's kinda that's what MSU's presented.
Alex:But I guess it's a broader concern about these, like, weapons manufacturing investments as well that they take in sort of an ethical issue with.
Owen:Yeah. And I I think just any connection, any financial connection to Israel is kind of raising concerns for this constituency. But, yes, MSU has definitely said that the way the money is flowing is isn't like we're profiting from profiting from Israel's war or anything like that. MSU has also kinda said with these weapons manufacturers, for example, a lot of that stuff is wrapped up in these sort of, like, pools that, MSU sort of their their investment advisors, sort of have control over these things. And these are index stock indexes where things are coming in and out on a daily basis.
Owen:And MSU, because there's contracts here with their, you know, people who make the investment, advisors and stuff, MSU can't, you know, just say, hey. Stop that, or they might have a breach of contract situation.
Alex:Well, and that's sort of been the debate for a year. Right? Is that, like, know, these activists say you need to divest from this and this and this. Yeah. And MSU says, well, it's part of this complicated portfolio that's managed by these outside people we hire.
Alex:We can't exactly choose everything we're invested in and divest from anything at any given moment.
Owen:Yeah.
Alex:And this is played out in a series of, like, protests, and then they'll schedule these sit down meetings between activists and university leaders. The university leaders will listen to them at these meetings, but the activists will feel like there's not enough action. So then there's more protests and then another meeting, and that's sort of like the cycle that we've seen.
Owen:Exactly. You
Alex:and I wrote in December that it felt like that dynamic was gonna change, that balance was gonna break Yeah. Because the protesters were threatening, like, oh, we're done with meetings. No more meetings.
Owen:We're all
Alex:it's all about disruption now. Right. And MSU two is signaling the at the hardest it ever had, we are not gonna meet these demands. Yeah.
Owen:At
Alex:this board meeting this week, we saw of course, saw that play out for the first time.
Owen:Yeah.
Alex:Is it totally different? Is the meetings thing done?
Owen:So no. We're we're kinda back to meetings. It it started out as back. Alright. Are back.
Owen:It started out as a disruption. Mhmm. And so we spoke earlier at the top of the episode about president Guskewitz's speech kind of addressing DEI concerns right at the start. A couple minutes into that, I'd say when he kind of started to shift away from DEI, just broader talking about the happenings at MSU, that's the moment when, you know, the the audience was already sort of all flooded full with with people from this pro divestment constituency. In a couple minutes into the speech is when the first person sort of stood up and they said, why did you arrest me?
Owen:And they were referencing back a couple months ago at a board meeting. There was a sort of sit in protest at the Administration Building. This was, like, another one of these, I guess, sort of more aggressive, strategies here was the sit in protest. And the it was a group of five people who basically decided to stay there, even after the building was going to close, and they were arrested. And and that was sort of, like, understood, I think, before.
Owen:You know, there wasn't a they knew that they were intentionally going to sort of stay there, until the building closed to sort of make this statement. But so this person stands up and says, why did you arrest me? And then there's this interesting sort of orchestrated pattern where people were standing up, and president Guskewitz is at first sort of trying to ignore this. He's keeping his head down. He's kinda pausing briefly and then continuing with his speech.
Owen:There's no police presence or anything like that. But, you know, people keep standing up and sort of reading a short statement, criticizing MSU for their inaction on this divestment stuff, and then they sit back down and someone else pops up. And then at a certain point, the board secretary sort of says, hey. We need to get There's public comment. We have that baked into our meetings for a reason.
Owen:We need to get through our business. And if these disruptions don't stop, we're going to adjourn the meeting, reconvene on Zoom, on a video call in ten minutes, and we're gonna ax public comment. Right? And so he had said that kind of from the start of the at the start of the meeting before it even started, and he said that at other meetings as well.
Alex:And they've done that before where they moved the meeting to Zoom.
Owen:Over the summer. Yeah. That happened. And so, basically, at that point, all these protesters kind of launch into a song, and there's all sort of chorusing and making it
Alex:that verb, chorusing in your story.
Owen:I did.
Alex:I thought that was I haven't heard chorus as a verb before. Yeah.
Owen:I mean, at first, we kinda had sang, and I was like, they chorused. I just thought it was a stronger verb. There's a chorus. And so, anyway, basically, the board at that point has sort of seen from the protesters this kinda clear stance that that they were here to disrupt this meeting. Right?
Owen:And so And, I
Alex:mean, that's what they said they were gonna do two nights before. Right? Because they hold this, like, town hall Yes. Where they wanted the board to come and listen to them. Mhmm.
Alex:Nobody from the board showed up.
Owen:Yeah.
Alex:And they said, alright. Well, we're gonna, you know, go to your meeting Friday and watch out for what we're gonna do. It seems like this is what they were planning was to disrupt it.
Owen:Exactly. Yeah. There was a lot of frustration there because with that town hall, they the organizers sort of said that four board members had had said to them, had given verbal commitments that they were going to show up, and then they didn't. And so, yeah, this is was kind of the reaction away is, okay, if you guys aren't gonna come to our thing, we're gonna sort of crash your party here.
Alex:And they do crash the party. Right? I mean, the meeting was adjourned for how like half an hour. Right?
Owen:Yeah. The meeting was yeah. It was delayed for about thirty hours. They they adjourned it most of
Alex:the day. Thirty hours, Owen.
Owen:Thirty hours? I'm so sorry. It was not that long. That would be a little bit ridiculous. Thirty minutes.
Owen:Thank you. You know, the board and the president start to sort of file out of the room. Yeah. But interestingly, a couple trustees, Rima Vassar, Dennis Denno, and a new trustee, Mike Balow,
Alex:they all These are the three that have sort of, in certain moments, voiced a little bit of support for I mean, never materially, but, like, sort of vaguely supported this movement.
Owen:Yeah. For sure. And I think with Mike Balow, I think it's it's sort of, for him, tied to rather than an ideological thing, I think it's just sort of tied to a larger idea of being responsive to constituents and transparency and good governance.
Alex:It's sort of Yeah.
Owen:I mean,
Alex:this guy I mean, he's, like, a conservative Republican. Yes. You know? I don't know if he's on it with the Israel demands, but he's very into sort of disruption and I mean, he was for years, he was the guy disrupting the board meetings. Yeah.
Alex:Exactly. Just now he's been voted on to the board, so maybe he sees a
Owen:sort of affinity there. Exactly. And so, anyway, these three board members are sort of huddled over in the corner talking to the board secretaries, maybe sort of charting out a next move for them. And what they decide to do is come back and take their seats, even though the meeting's adjourned. And then they basically engage in a back and forth conversation with, the protesters.
Owen:And it's it's pretty heated for a moment. Rima Vassar, in fact, I think matches some of the heat in this and says, like, hey. We wanna work with you, but you need to let us do our business. Right? Mhmm.
Owen:And then, eventually, president Guskewitz sort of comes back in the room along with board chair Kelly Tibe. And then the last person to kinda come back is Brianna Scott. So that leaves Renee Kanacki Jefferson, Rebecca Bahar Cook, and help me out. Pierce? Pierce.
Owen:Sandy Pierce.
Alex:Well, Pierce and Bahar Cook are probably the most vocally anti divestment
Owen:Exactly. On board. Right. And so they never came back in the room. But, basically, for about thirty minutes, they sort of went back and forth and kinda worked out these grievances.
Owen:Why didn't she show up to our town hall? Well, it's because we all have different jobs, and it's it's hard for us to all meet, but we're all in town kind of for the, for the board meetings. And so that's when we need to have these things. But but, you know, the what the president said is sort of that they never committed to this formally, so they're kinda working out those grievances. And then they basically chart a path forward.
Owen:And what they land on is, okay, we can meet the day before the next board meeting, which is gonna be April 10. And that can be our proper discussion with all the board there and the president, and we can hear about your divestment concerns. But within two weeks, we need to have a preliminary meeting to sort of set the terms for that meeting, and sort of make it a sort of structured thing, maybe agree on a mediator. And that sort of follows the model of a meeting that apparently MSU's leaders had just before this board meeting with the Black Students Alliance, where the leaders said, hey, we just had this really productive meeting with BSA, and president Guskewitz actually said to the pro Palestinian demonstrators, you guys should get in touch with BSA and kind of talk to them about how they had the preliminary thing with us where they decided the terms.
Alex:Talk to BSA about how they deal with us. Yeah. Like, he would prefer if they yeah.
Owen:Yeah. That was kinda the idea. And, eventually, they say, okay. We'll let your meeting go on if we can agree on that, and they agree. Within two weeks, we need to meet over Zoom to decide the terms of our meeting, and then the meeting actually has to happen on April 10 where we can, hear where we can present our concerns to you all.
Alex:Oh, and tell me, if you wanna be sort of broadly cynical about this, either from a pro Palestinian perspective, you could say, oh, this is another meeting where they're just gonna nod their heads, but they're not actually gonna do anything. Or if you wanna be sort of cynical about this in a way that's critical of the protesters, you could say, like, why do they keep doing these meetings? They know MSU is not gonna divest. Mhmm. Just like meeting after meeting.
Alex:What is the point of this? Do you feel that this is in, like, a cynical way, just a furthering of this dynamic that's been going on for a year where nobody gets what they want? Or is this new meeting thing that they're talking about something that's, like, materially different than what they've been doing for a year, where there might be a different result than all the meetings that have come before?
Owen:Yeah. Cynically, I don't I don't think this is a new thing.
Alex:This is just more of the same. Yeah.
Owen:I mean, I I guess Is the mediator different?
Alex:They're talking about having, like, a mediator there? Who would that be, did they say?
Owen:No. They they didn't get into the specifics there. Yeah. I I don't I I do think that I don't know that there's been, like, a proper forum with a mediator before. And and, you know, board chair Kelly Tibay said in an interview with me sort of recently, you know, that kind of the status quo with these things hasn't been cutting it.
Owen:And that, kinda what the the way it's worked is, like, one trustee has met with all the protesters and has sort of been talked at, and there's not this room for a back and forth. And that was kinda what MSU's leaders said about why they didn't want the town hall, was they thought this town hall was gonna be sort of a a PR stunt for protesters to kind of attack the leaders without being able to go back and forth. I mean,
Alex:it was sort of designed, like, you guys are gonna come sit and listen. Right? Like
Owen:Yeah. Exactly. And, like, the the promotional materials for it kinda struck that tone. And so I guess you could say in a less cynical perspective that, yeah, this this new meeting where it's supposed to be a back and forth and there's not the media there and there's not it's it's it's just meant to be a form to really get into the nitty gritty here. I guess you could say that's a change, but I guess the cynical perspective, though, is is it going to move the needle?
Owen:Is it going to create the pave the way for the divestment that these people have wanted? I think MSU has made it pretty clear, but I think what president Guskewitz has said is, you know, can we find a sort of compromise if that's the right word? Can we can we find other ways, maybe create some professorships here for Palestinian scholars? Is is that something we can do, which we've seen those sort of deals kind of And
Alex:that's worked. Some schools protesters have taken a deal. It's like, we're not gonna divest. We're gonna change our endowment, but we're gonna put something on the table for, like, taking students who have been displaced from, you know, universities in Gaza. Like, they can come study here or a scholarship for international students.
Alex:That I mean, when we've talked to activists, they've said that, like, that's not something they would ever consider as, you know, as alternative to divestment. But, it's interesting that they're furthering the meeting dynamic. I mean, I guess, just from, like, a higher ed leadership perspective, it's kind of interesting. You know, we've seen these scenes at, like, a bunch of other schools, Columbia, even just the U of M down the road where this stuff gets really ugly between schools and protesters. This is another example of, like, what could have become a very ugly scene at MSU being resolved by, alright.
Alex:We're gonna stop, you know, yelling each other today. Let's do a meeting in a month. Yeah. You know, maybe that's a testament to, like, Kevin Guskowitz being some sort of incredible president that no one else has figured out how to strike that balance. Maybe the protesters at MSU are just more inclined to take deals that don't really work for their demands.
Owen:Yeah. I mean, he's certainly been kinda recognized in the past, like, when the encampments were happening. He was sort of recognized as a president with a unique ability to sort of, you know, do the civil discourse and the real I
Alex:mean, it's certainly different than, like, what we're seeing in a lot of other universities that make national news for just how, like, violent these scenes can get. Yeah.
Owen:Oh, absolutely.
Alex:Yeah. Well, that's all for now. We will be back next week with fresh reporting from the great minds here at the State News. Until then, all the stories we discussed and plenty more available at statenews.com. Thanks to my guest, Owen and Emilio, and our podcast coordinator, Taylor.
Alex:But most of all, thank you for listening. For the nineteen oh nine, I'm Alex Walters.