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For long-form interviews, news, and commentary about the WordPress ecosystem. This is the companion show to The WP Minute, your favorite 5-minutes of WordPress news every week.
Matt: Roger Williams,
welcome to the WP Minute.
Hey Matt, how are ya?
There's a Roger Williams Zoo
about 20 minutes from me that
I bring my kids to all along.
You ever get confused
as THE Roger Williams?
Roger: You know, it was a big thing
in fifth grade, um, history class.
When we learned about Rhode Island
and the founder of Rhode Island being
Roger Williams, uh, and then everybody
forgot about it and didn't care.
But, um, an interesting fact, uh,
one of my aunts, uh, a bunch of
years ago traced back our lineage.
Apparently, uh, I come
from Roger Williams.
Wow.
Yeah.
Matt: That's fantastic.
Well, I, I have royalty slash celebrity.
First time on the WP minutes.
Great.
Roger: Another funny story.
We went to Rhode Island once and
I, you know, we got carded at a
bar and I tried to be kind of like,
Hey, kind of cool name, right?
Do I get like a free drink?
And yeah, just nothing.
Matt: Yeah.
Roger: Nothing.
I was like, no,
Matt: yeah, they're,
they're sick of that joke.
They are sick of that joke.
Um, that's fantastic.
Uh, so you find yourself
these days at Kinsta.
We're going to talk about
what you do at Kinsta.
Cause we sort of share, um, Similar
titles to my day job at gravity forms.
But I was just on your, on the, your show
slash Kinsta show, you were talking about,
you have some previous experience with
video editing and creating other content.
Take me back.
Was, was that what you did before
you, you got this role at Kinsta?
You were running your own
stuff, working for other folks.
What did that look like?
Roger: Yeah.
So, I mean, I've got a, um, a storied
career that there's no straight path.
Uh, I was, I started in hosting, uh,
Uh, we moved into selling CDN for
a little while back when you had to
actually like call somebody and get CDN.
Um, and then I got burnt out
of corporate and did, I started
building websites for people.
So this is around 2009, 2010, um,
started building WordPress sites.
And then there was this YouTube
thing that was really taking off.
And from an SEO perspective, I realized.
That even if you didn't have a good
video up, if you had a decent video
up and you did some decent titling and
descriptions, you could start ranking at
the top of searches on Google immediately.
So I had a bunch of clients that I
started sitting them down, just doing
a video of like, explain what you do.
And at the time I worked with like some
criminal defense lawyers in Phoenix.
And so really savory subjects,
uh, running the gamut.
Um, and, and we were just talking about
how I really love this new tool Riverside
has, and Descript has it too, where
after you shoot a video, it creates a
transcript, and you're able to now just
go in and say, Oh, get rid of this uh
and um, get rid of this whole sentence.
Uh, and so back in my day, or
God, I sound like an old man,
but back in 2009, 2010, right?
You had to load everything into Final
Cut or Premiere and just sit there
and go through and edit out each of
those or try and do another 20 takes
and hopefully get something coherent.
So that was really kind
of where I got started.
Um, I, I did that for about eight
or nine years and then realized I
needed a more consistent paycheck,
uh, doing the, the client stuff.
Just as a little bit too ups and
down for how I was running it.
Um, and so I went back into hosting,
worked at Pressable for a bit,
and then ended up at Kinsta and
been here almost five years now,
Matt: that's it.
Oh, did I lose
Roger: in and out, in and out?
Matt: How about now?
You're good.
I got you.
Oh, you got me now.
Yes.
Jesus.
You know, man, technology.
We were just ranting about that.
It might XLR adapter like became
unplugged, uh, in the midst of this stuff.
Um, the YouTube stuff.
I remember doing my first YouTube video
2010 for the studio, for my studio,
um, and one of the very first videos I
did was reviewing, uh, Gravity Forms,
which, uh, where I work today, uh, but I
remember, um, we had, uh, at the time he
was an intern, but he ended up being full
time as a project manager shortly after.
But he was like a musician so he knew
all about like audio and video and my
dad had a whole set of like professional
Digital photography cameras, but like
the video side of it was just throwaway
like it wasn't that wasn't a thing back
then They were like, oh, you're not gonna
record videos with so these things would
record up to 15 minutes in 1080p And we
were like, oh my god, this is amazing
Right and but you had 15 minutes So
if you screwed up and you were running
against the clock you had to get up take
out the sd card Throw another one in
hopefully the thing doesn't overheat I
mean the challenges of making youtube
videos back in the day are laughable
Uh, you know compared today when we
have like these cinema rigs in our hands
with like an iphone or a modern android
phone It's it's quite quite amazing
Roger: agreed agreed.
Yeah, I remember when the 5d
mark 2 craze first hit right?
Okay And then, uh, so I didn't have
the budget, uh, to go for that.
Uh, so I ended up with a Canon 60 D
and, and that was able to do the 1080
P record, not 1080 P I think it was
1080 I, uh, so it was still like, you
know, not great, but then magic lantern
came out and I don't know if you ever
started using magic lantern at all.
I remember I didn't use it.
Oh my goodness.
Total game changer.
You could now record up to 50 minutes.
Um, and, and it added just a whole
bunch of features in there that.
Half of them you didn't need,
but no, you're, you're spot on.
Uh, it's, it's so much easier now, right?
You, you've just got your iPhone.
I just spent the weekend running
around Moab shooting video and the,
the quality of the video that comes
out of these phones now is just.
It's amazing.
So there's no excuses is what
we're trying to say to people.
Matt: So one of the things in my
previous life, as I mentioned, uh, in
your, uh, session earlier to this is
I worked at Pagely for a little while.
I ran the Pagely podcast, but, um,
you know, the, the, the C suite team
wasn't fully bought in on running
a podcast as a valuable thing.
Fast forward to today, you're, you're
doing this now with, with Kinsta.
Um, I think I might know
the obvious advantages.
What are the advantages for you and the
Kinsta team for creating this kind of more
personal content, uh, for the audience?
Roger: Yeah, I think, you know, there
was an interesting, I don't know if
it's statistic or takeaway from, uh,
some study that came out, I don't know,
six months, 12 months ago, where they
surveyed, uh, millennials and Gen Z about.
their media intake.
And one of the biggest takeaways that
I got from this was that when they
see content that is too polished, Too
scripted, they immediately suspect
something is up and, and, uh, you know,
to me as a, you know, kind of a scrappy
content maker, not a great writer.
Um, I'm still not great
with my comma placement.
Uh, That's kind of
music to my ears, right?
Because I want to make
just authentic stuff.
I want to have a conversation that
has some us and ums because I'm trying
to figure out what I want to say.
And I think that the audience
sees that, especially the younger
audience, as this research is showing.
And I think even older audiences are
starting to just get tired of the
overproduced, the overpolished and
realizing that a lot of times there
message going on in there.
And what I'm trying to do with
the, uh, Kinsta talks, I guess is
what we're calling them is just
have some real conversations with
people and, and learn more about
how they're working in the space.
Matt: Kinsta does a lot, uh, for hosting.
It's not just WordPress.
So, You're specifically targeting just
WordPress folks right now, obviously
like community trust connection is
massive in the, in the WordPress space.
Do you ever see yourself venturing out
into some of the other technologies
that Kinsta can help folks with
through their hosting or is
primarily target WordPress right now?
Roger: Um, you know, I, I, I, like
you, you've hit it on the head.
We're definitely focused
on WordPress right now.
It's, it's where most of our business is.
It's, you know, who I need to talk
to the most to figure out what
we can do better to help them.
Um, and so there's, you know, I
think that's what I really love
with, uh, having these conversations
is it's a two way street.
I'm, I'm trying to listen more than
what I'm trying to, you know, say.
As far as other technologies go, you
know, I can't really say anything specific
right now because I just don't know.
Uh, but I do.
Like to think that in general,
I'm focused on the open source
software world as it is.
And we're seeing components
of, um, you know, you've got
like headless sites, right?
Where they're being built
the front ends and react.
And so at least being aware of that.
And we have customers who are
using our WordPress on the
backend and they're using.
Some of our other technologies
for the front end.
So those things are happening and I'm
sure at some point I'll expand into that.
But, uh, as far as the timeline
goes, I have no idea right now.
Matt: Owning, uh, amplifying, enhancing
one's personal brand is oh, so important,
uh, these days, not just from like
the broader business perspective,
but what we see going on with.
WordPress, um, and this, uh, tug of
war of ownership and, um, you know,
democratizing not only publishing,
but the, uh, the building of
WordPress, the software as it stands.
I often see far too much, uh, that I
want to admit to in my Twitter timeline
and other places around the web of
freelance product makers who just like,
uh, I've got this plugin, please buy it.
And they, and they even say
things like, I'm even ashamed
to ask for people to buy it.
And it's like, you're sitting on this
mountain of content opportunities, right?
To fire up, um, either, you know,
video or audio, because I'm actually
more of like an audio period
purist than I am a video purist.
Purist you can start a podcast
freely distributable RSS.
Just like WordPress.
It's why I love the two spaces Because
of that open distribution, but people
should start doing this yesterday
And if you're hearing this you should
be doing it right now So I'm curious
like If you've seen this before in the
WordPress space, if so, uh, what either
opportunity should people be looking for?
Where could they start?
That's not so overwhelming because I
fully agree for, for some of them, it is
emotionally overwhelming, not just like
the tech side of it, but like, Oh my God,
I have to talk and put myself out there.
So any advice for those types of folks?
Roger: Yeah.
You know, I think simplify, right.
Um, even as simple as it is to get
a podcast going on WordPress, there
is still some complication in there.
And so, uh, you know, uh, personally,
I'm a big fan of LinkedIn.
Um, the reason I like LinkedIn is because
everybody that's going to LinkedIn
is going there for a purpose, right?
It's business, whether they're
looking for a job or they're
looking to sell or whatever.
So you've already got an audience.
That is interested in hearing
a sales pitch, whether, you
know, they like it or not.
I mean, that's what LinkedIn is.
And do you've got the opportunity
to upload audio and video there
and it's just, it's really easy.
And so I would say, you
know, strip things down.
And honestly, this is the
approach I'm taking, right?
Is, um, at, at some point I'm going
to post all this stuff to a podcast,
but right now I can just post it on
LinkedIn, test it with an audience.
Get some feedback, see
what works, what doesn't.
Um, and just start with that.
Just start testing and
putting stuff out there.
And once you get to 50, which I'm still
not even at 50 that I've put out yet.
Once you get to 50, then start thinking
about complicating it and what, you
know, what are the things I can add on
to make this more difficult for myself.
Uh, but until you get to 50, you're
not going to really figure out
what you're enjoy talking about.
Matt: One of the hardest things for
me, as somebody who's been doing it
for well over a decade when I joined
Gravity Forms, is Look, you step into
the, you step into the shoes of a
company that's been around forever.
Um, you know, celebrating 15 years, uh,
in business, a milestone a few months ago.
And how does one represent that brand?
Right?
Because I'm not a developer.
I don't know all the acronyms.
I don't.
Tab space or space bar, my code, man.
I don't do any of that stuff.
How can I represent like
the super smart team?
Who's so, you know, well respected
in, in the WordPress space.
That was a particular challenge
for me is like, am I good
enough to represent this brand?
Um, any particular challenges you faced
or still face today as sort of being
the face of Kinsta, you don't have
to leave, you can stick around and
Roger: let us
Matt: know.
Roger: For those on the audio version, I
was kind of cowering a little bit there.
This is huge.
The imposter syndrome is very real,
especially when it's with a team like
Kinsta, we've got so many a hitters on
that are making things work, whether it's
engineering, design, development, support
sales, uh, it, it's an all star team and,
um, So, so I, I keep that in mind and
at times that can be paralyzing, right?
Don't get me wrong.
Like of, of, of worrying about
if I'm going to say the right
thing or the wrong thing.
Um, I, you know, the, what's really
helped me is the executive team at Kinsta
is amazing and they're very supportive.
And they're very vocal with that feedback.
And I think for leaders, if you're, if
anybody's out there and they're trying
to get a team going, who wants to do some
sort of content production, coming heavy
with the praise, the criticism can wait.
You know, get from zero to one first and,
and, and just really build up the team
because that's going to come through their
confidence in themselves and in their
company is all going to come through.
So, you know, really
accentuate the positives.
Obviously, if there's a major, you
know, if there's a legal issue,
you've got to bring that up.
Uh, but anything short of a
legal issue is not a big deal.
The internet has a short memory.
Right.
I'm for the most part.
And, um, and so don't get too
hung up on the little things.
People are going to expect you to mess up.
We're all people.
And, and kind of going back to the
earlier thread, we were talking
about this authenticity that comes
through when you make a mistake.
When you leave the mistake in the edit,
people notice that we're all editors.
Now we all realize, oh, they could
have removed that or they could have
shot that again, but they didn't.
Um, and, and what does that mean?
Well, it means that they're
comfortable with themselves and.
You know, they're okay with that.
So, you know, zero to one,
get something out the door.
And once you get to 50, I think 50 is
a nice number because, um, you know,
I've been for like two months now
been doing like a bunch of interviews
every week and putting them out there
and I'm still not even at 50 yet.
And it feels like I've done a
lot, but it's not a lot yet.
And I feel like once you get to
that certain number, whether it's
50 or 100, whatever you make it.
Then you can start kind of
looking back and seeing, okay,
Hey, what, what shows did well,
maybe we want to do more of those.
What guests did we have the most fun with?
I mean, that's the other
thing, like keep this fun.
If it's not fun, you need to
reanalyze what's going on.
Matt: Yeah.
That, uh, you are, uh, A lot more
aggressive than I was when I was in
my podcast, uh, consulting career.
I would say people, well,
once you get to like 14, 15
episodes, you're probably hooked.
Like you're probably okay.
Um, if I would've told people 50,
they probably would've ran away
from me, but I totally get it.
Uh, and I totally understand it.
How do you measure, uh, this is
more of like a technical question.
Cause I know your focus
primarily on, on LinkedIn.
That's where I see your videos
popping up all the time.
It's where I was watching Jake
Goldman, um, earlier this morning.
How do you measure technically the
success of the video on LinkedIn?
So many of us are used to YouTube and
YouTube analytics and stuff like that.
How do you do it on, on LinkedIn?
Roger: Yeah.
So I'm going to give away a secret
and it shouldn't be a secret.
There is a really good,
um, app called aware.
Uh, the, the domain name is use aware.
co.
And I'm going to totally flub, uh, the
founder of it right now, even though
I'm a, I'm following him on LinkedIn.
Um, they basically, he built this tool.
It's, it's a salesperson's
tool for using LinkedIn.
And, uh, the reason that I like it a
lot more than using LinkedIn is first
of all, it strips everything away.
It's content focused.
So there's no ads.
There's, you know, not a lot of
craziness going on in there and it
allows, it's got a really nice, um,
dashboard so you can track your metrics
as far as, you know, what content's
getting viewed, what content's getting
engagement on, but then it also
helps you engage more into LinkedIn.
So it's.
I think his name is Alex.
Sorry.
Um, his big focus is that when you're
trying to use LinkedIn, it's a two way
street, you're putting content out there.
That's important.
You should shoot for maybe one post
a day is, is what most people are
saying, but really you want to make
sure you're engaging people on LinkedIn.
And so it's got a huge, um,
component for commenting and replying
and engaging people on there.
And that's really how LinkedIn works best.
And I know from my.
My perspective is when people are leaving
comments, I'm paying attention to those
people and I'm engaging with them.
Uh, so, so I use aware.
co, uh, absolutely indispensable tool.
If you want to be using LinkedIn.
Matt: Yeah, no, that's, that's fantastic.
Uh, we'll make sure we link
that up in the show notes.
Yeah.
You know, I'm surprised.
Well, I'm not surprised.
Really, because when you think about
the, the sheer scale of, of YouTube,
it's a dangerous thing and you know,
I say dangerous because I'm also very
rooted in the open RSS podcasting world
and these days like, you know, podcast
industry with air quotes following
the money, it's so hard to track it.
success of audio podcast
because it is fragmented, right?
Like, just like we all have our
wordpress websites, you know, not
everyone can see your traffic.
You can't really understand.
You know, if you were like advertising
stuff, you have to share those results.
You can't do that in podcasting
either because it's RSS feed.
It's hosted anywhere and
everywhere people can listen to it.
So the podcast industry is pushing,
you know, they were pushing
for Spotify for many years.
Spotify couldn't do it because
podcasters want to do it.
Or podcast listeners and
podcasters want the flexibility
of open distribution, right?
And perfect example would be Joe
Rogan, whether or not you like the
content, but the idea was he was
exclusive to listening on Spotify.
They took him off of YouTube and then
Spotify tried that model of acquiring
premium content and saying, okay,
maybe we'll make money by getting
all these listeners onto Spotify.
That didn't work because the
acquisition costs of the content
they were, they were buying.
It ain't no way you're catching up with
10 a month or 14 a month for Spotify.
Okay.
Um, so now it's back to the open
distribution model and they'll
just sell ads on top of that.
And that's their revenue stream.
It's the open distribution
model actually winning the day.
Although it kind of went under
the radar in the podcast space.
But the point that I'm getting to is
a lot of folks are pushing for YouTube
to win for podcasting these days.
And it's just like, don't you all
realize what you're doing again?
You're pushing onto one centralized
platform is video first.
Which is totally different than audio.
Yeah, I know it's much more attractive
and you can sell it better, but
audio is far easier to produce
and manage than video, even today.
It's, I mean, video file sizes are still
10, 20 times the size of an audio file.
And transitions and, you know,
the theater of the mind is a lot
easier in audio than it is in video.
Um, so pushing for success on YouTube, um,
is a detriment to the podcasting space.
Where I'm going with this is, uh, these,
these other platforms, I'm surprised
they haven't invested more in video.
Like even Twitter, I mean, LinkedIn's
starting to do it, do it more and,
and even Instagram to a degree,
I'm surprised we haven't seen.
A pure competitor to YouTube.
I don't have a direct question here, but
I don't know if you have any thoughts
on like video versus like platforms and,
and where creators should be concerned
with where you put your content.
Roger: Yeah.
Uh, digital fear cropping is a real issue.
It has been something we've been
talking about for 20 plus years now.
And.
It's probably worse than it's ever been.
Um, the amount of people that are
still blogging on their personal
blog, and I'm just as guilty.
I finally did put a personal post
up for the first time in months.
Yesterday or two days ago, but, um,
it's, these companies have come in and
they've created experiences that are so
easy and so fluid that they've really
blown away, like the ability to just
use WordPress and do your content there.
Um, I love YouTube.
I have a premium subscription because I do
not have time to watch ads and it's right.
It's totally worth it.
I can download videos so I
can watch them on the plane.
Um, it is really amazing.
And I remember I was working at
a CDN company in 2006 when Google
bought YouTube for, I think it was 2.
3 billion.
And the whole internet was like, Oh
my God, Google's lost their mind.
They, this is the dumbest move ever.
And I mean, now you look back at it
and that's chump change for, I mean,
what is arguably now the largest
streaming platform in the world.
I mean, forget the numbers
that Netflix puts out.
YouTube is ridiculous.
Um, you know, as far as people
not realizing that they're
giving away their content.
It's hard because video is really hard.
Like you just said, video files
are much larger self hosting video.
I mean, if you're going to do that, you
then need to put in a player that can
adapt to the user's internet connection
and automatically adjust the bit rate.
Um, there's so much magic that happens
when you watch a YouTube video.
And so to compete with
that is really hard.
And then you've got like on my
phone, the YouTube app is amazing.
I can exit the app and go do other
things and the video is still
there and I can flick it out of
the way and I'm still hearing it.
Uh, you know, I can download videos to it.
It's, it's really hard.
I think the important thing is for
creators is to stay focused on creating.
Uh, and learning your craft and getting
really good at it and, you know, going
back and revising it and then being
aware that these platforms and these are
out there and that they own you, right?
I mean, if YouTube blocks you tomorrow,
you're, what are you going to do?
Do you have a plan B?
And so having a podcast on your own
WordPress site is still the smartest
business move by far that you can do.
Um, and you know, and so, yeah, I mean,
I can pontificate on this for ever.
Matt: So you're, you're out in
the world, you're creating content
for Kinsta, you're talking to, uh,
folks in the WordPress community.
When you go back to the weekly,
quarterly, monthly meetings at Kinsta,
do they, do they look at you and say,
Roger, give us, give us the pulse of
what's happening in WordPress or do
you just get brushed away like I did?
Like, you're just the podcaster here.
We're not going to talk to you.
No, I'm just kidding.
Uh, do they, how do you provide
the feedback of all of this content
that you create that actually
helps Kinsta make a better product?
Roger: Uh, yes.
Great question.
Again, I, I mean, I'm biased, right?
I work at Kinsta, so I'm gonna say
nice things, but I will be very honest.
I've worked at a lot of companies and
the thing that I love the most about
this company is they, they're, they
listen to all of us, not just me.
Um, we have a, we have an industry channel
in our slack and we talk about, you know,
Everything that's going on in there.
And our executives are
in there talking with us.
As far as my, my specific position,
I am incredibly fortunate that all of
my bosses, uh, have seen something in
me, uh, believe in me and trust me to.
You know, go out into the
community, talk to the community,
listen, gather all the feedback.
And then I bring reports back.
So especially after every word
camp, I've always got a big report.
Um, but usually it's, it's,
you know, monthly, quarterly
basis, uh, if not daily, I'm.
You know, trying to highlight certain
things that are coming up, um, and,
and just really again, trying to
work with the team on all of this.
Uh, and, and it's hard because
sometimes there is a lot of noise
and we have to filter out that noise.
And, and I think having the experience
I've had, having been through enough
hosting companies and, and building
sites and working with clients and
seeing what works and what doesn't.
I have a little bit of a filter in
there, but, uh, at the end of the day,
it's all humility and just realizing
that I've got a dream job and, uh, be
really appreciative of that and, and
just try and do the best work that I can.
Matt: Fantastic stuff.
Not the Roger Williams, but somewhere
down the family tree, Roger Williams.
Uh, you're going to be here in the
Boston area, end of November for
the Boston, uh, WordPress meetup.
I'll link that up.
In the show notes, where else do
you want folks to go to say thanks?
Roger: Oh, come find me on LinkedIn.
That's where I am.
Too much, almost.
I need to filter out
how often I'm on there.
But, uh, yeah, come and say hi on LinkedIn
and, and, uh, I'd love to talk to you.
Matt: Fantastic stuff.
Thanks for hanging out today.
Don't forget the wpminute.
com, the wpminute.
com slash subscribe to stay connected.
We'll see you in the next episode.