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HR entrepreneur Mike Coffey, SPHR, SHRM-SCP engages business thought leaders about the strategic, psychological, legal, and practical implications of bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. As an HR consultant, mentor to first-stage businesses through EO’s Accelerator program, and owner of Imperative—Bulletproof Background Screening, Mike is passionate about helping other professionals improve how they recruit, select, and manage their people. Most thirty-minute episodes of Good Morning, HR will be eligible for half a recertification credit for both HRCI and SHRM-certified professionals. Mike is a member of Entrepreneurs Organization (EO) Fort Worth and active with the Texas Association of Business, the Fort Worth Chamber, and Texas SHRM.
Being a leader is the thing. What you do is coaching. Okay. So coaching is a skill that is needed by leaders, by effective leaders. So it's it is a skill, and it is something that can be learned.
Mike Coffey:Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffey, president of Imperative. Bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. And this is the podcast where I talk to business leaders about bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. Please follow, rate, and review Good Morning HR wherever you get your podcast.
Mike Coffey:You can also find us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, or at good morning hr.com. I'm excited. I've known today's guest for over 20 years, but Shelly Goodrum has over 40 years as a people leader in the financial industry. Most recently as the chief executive advisor at Apex Capital, one of the most respected financial services firms in Texas. In 2022, Shelly embarked on a new path, becoming an executive coach where she leverages her expertise in human resources leadership and employee development to serve as a guide to others' personal and professional fulfillment.
Mike Coffey:Welcome to Good Morning HR, Shelley.
Shelley Goodrum:Good morning. Great to see you, Mike.
Mike Coffey:We all we always hear about HR not having a seat at the table. Sometimes that has to do with the organization's leadership. Sometimes that has to do, I think, often with the HR leadership that they have. But I've always felt like the HR leaders who are strategic but also empathetic, who can coach and develop, others people's, you know, skills and narrow, you know, other employees leadership skills are the ones who really make a difference in the organization. And your last title at Apex Capital was chief executive advisor.
Mike Coffey:And I think just the title really sums up to me what an HR leader's role really is. So as we get into talking about coaching today, can we use that title and kind of what your role was there, kind of as a starting point to talk about, you know, what you did there and how that ties into the coaching idea?
Shelley Goodrum:Okay. Well, Apex allowed me to stay after I retired. So I was working part time at the point where I got that title. And, I had been replaced, so I was there partially to help my replacement, but more so because we had a new president in the company. And so to help him get acclimated and not have to have the chief HR officer and the chief, you know, the president of the organization both be new.
Shelley Goodrum:So I was helping him kind of transition, understand the culture, which, you know, at Apex is very strong.
Mike Coffey:Yeah.
Shelley Goodrum:Yeah. And also to the president of the company I mean, the owner of the company, so that I was always kind of his adviser and to some extent, his coach, on day to day kind of things and just he liked to get very philosophical at times. So I got to be the the person to listen to the stories and to kinda work through things with him.
Mike Coffey:That's just a really critical time too because that I I see so many organizations when new senior leadership comes in especially at the the c level that they can have an amazing culture and just inserting that new leader in totally messes that up. Mhmm. And, you know, you if if the values aren't aligned, if if there's not an understanding of how we got to the culture that we're we have now and and what the hard lessons were along the way and why we do things. You know, there is that tendency with a lot of new leaders. They want their fingerprints on something.
Mike Coffey:And, you know, culture is something that, you know, seems easy to affect quickly, and, and it's really well, it's easy to affect quickly, but often not positively if you're if you're not careful about it. And Apex is I mean, y'all have they've had so many awards, for you know, and I've known so many of the HR people who've worked there over the, the last, what, 15 years. It's a unique place, especially in financial services to have that kind of culture.
Shelley Goodrum:Yeah. Well, you know, Mike, when we when I first went to work there, you were one of the first people I called. Yes. Because I knew we needed your services. Nobody better than my coffee.
Mike Coffey:Well, I appreciate that. My my favorite clients are the ones who go find new jobs because I I was you know, they bring me in wherever they go, and and that's my best marketing. But I appreciate that. Thank you, and the checks in the mail. But when you're, you know, whether it's, you know, the the president of the company or the founders who I know you worked with and, or just your frontline supervisors, What does it really mean to be a coach as a leader in an organization?
Shelley Goodrum:Okay. Well, I always like to start just with the definition of what a coach is. So if you don't mind, I'm gonna read it because I don't have it memorized. It's a collaborative conversation that facilitates another person's ability to self develop quickly and effectively toward the achievement of personal goals and corporate objectives. So it doesn't say anything about solving other people's problems or telling them what to do or any of that.
Mike Coffey:So we're not here to fix them?
Shelley Goodrum:No. We're not here to fix them and solve all their problems. And, you know, one of the things is in a lot of organizations, particularly at Apex, any almost everyone in a management role got promoted. So they got promoted partially because they were good problem solvers. So it's really hard to stop doing that.
Shelley Goodrum:And as a coach, as a leader, you want to develop your people, and you can't do it if you're constantly telling them how to do their jobs and sticking your fingers and everything. So that means you need to be empowering them. And the way you can empower them is through coaching. You know, there there are some some core differences between managing and coaching, not to say that you shouldn't be managing. You have to be concerned about the bottom line and that sort of thing.
Shelley Goodrum:But if you think about the difference between, managing and coaching, one is it when you're, managing, you're telling people things. So sometimes you do need to tell, like, this is what, you know, our goal is. This is what we're expected to achieve. But when you're developing people and and, getting them to think for themselves, you're not you're not telling, you're asking. So, that's an important difference right there.
Mike Coffey:Well and I the the definition you you read a moment ago talked about people finding achieving their own self potential and and bringing themselves up. And it's kind of, you know, you're using the term coach there, but I I use that as the difference between that those same kind of concepts as the difference between a manager and a leader because, you know, you know, managers you can man you can try to manage people. Man, people are a hot mess, but, you know, you can, you know, say here's what the expectations are. You can incentivize them or punish them, you know, when they do well or or or perform poorly or don't do as expected. But getting people to give that extra effort, that that self motor that internal effort to, you know, to contribute more than just the basic and to and to help people grow in an organization is is really what the leader's role should be should be.
Mike Coffey:Right?
Shelley Goodrum:And you're right. Being a leader is the thing. What you do is coaching. Okay. So coaching is a skill that is needed by leaders, by effective leaders.
Shelley Goodrum:So it's it is a skill, and it is something that can be learned. It it really is just a series of learning how to, like I said, instead of telling, asking. So one of the things I tell my coaching clients that are lead people leaders is whenever you feel like you're getting ready to tell somebody something, turn it into a question. That's a real easy one. So it's like instead of, saying, I think you should do this, you you would say, what do you think you should do?
Mike Coffey:And why does that matter? Why why does all this coaching stuff matter? Why not just tell people oh, you know, why not just be that leader who's black and white? I'll hold you accountable, either you hit your numbers or you don't and just move on because that I mean, we it's it's almost a drinking game if you listen to the podcast very much because this is something that comes up and every time I say it, we should take a drink. But the, you know we make people managers because they're good at a certain job and so we make them managers over people who do that job and we often don't give them the skills to to do that.
Mike Coffey:And so the default is, okay, they either met expectation or they didn't, and we and we, you know, respond accordingly. What's the difference between that and, and, you know, why do we want coaches instead of those kind of managers?
Shelley Goodrum:Well, one of the So that means that you don't wanna do everything yourself. Mhmm. So, So that means that you don't want to do everything yourself. So if you're teaching other people how to do things and you're letting them think for yourself, then you can be more strategic because you're not spending time making sure people are dotting their i's and crossing their t's. You're thinking about the future and what needs to be done going forward.
Shelley Goodrum:If you're spending all of your time in the weeds because you don't have your people where they can trust themselves and their own judgment, then, you know, you're you're going to have to be doing more work maybe than you want to. So, I'll give you another example. If you are having if you are in problem solving mode as a manager, it means that you're trying to figure out what that person should do. So even a simple question, like somebody comes to you and says, I don't know what to do about so and so. And first question could be, what have you done so far?
Shelley Goodrum:Well, nothing. Okay. Well, what do you think you should do? Mhmm. Well, I think that because they have some idea.
Shelley Goodrum:It's just maybe they don't trust themselves to know what they should be doing. So by asking questions, you're drawing out what they probably already know. As a manager yourself, I'm sure you've you've experienced that where it's like, I can sit here and tell you all day what to do, but you're not going to remember. You are maybe not. You don't agree with what I said, and so you're going to do something else.
Shelley Goodrum:Or next time the same thing happens, you're gonna have to ask again because I I didn't let you figure it out yourself.
Mike Coffey:So having coaches as leaders give you know, freeze that that leader up to be strategic and not, you know, keep having that employees job pushed onto their desk. But at the same time, the employees become more competent. And I think most employees really want self ownership. Right? I mean, they really want that autonomy to figure out things.
Mike Coffey:But getting them to the point where, 1, they feel comfortable doing it and, 2, they still make the right decisions, And they really think through the issues that, you know, the consequences of whatever the actions are take some time, and that's that takes a certain amount of patience on a leader. And the I know me personally, the instinct is even after, you know, running this company for 25 years, the expectation or the the impulse is still to grab that item. Right? You know, here, let me just fix that for you. Let me just do it.
Mike Coffey:It'll be faster if it will be faster this one time if I just do it. But the next 15 times that that employee can do it, if I can get them to the point where they feel confident in doing it, will save me a lot of time and give them a higher level of satisfaction.
Shelley Goodrum:Well, let me ask you, Mike. What does it feel like when somebody does that to you?
Mike Coffey:Oh, yeah. Well, I'm I've been married for 27 years. And, and there's, you know, there's still the one person who can get under my skin is is my lovely bride. And and she will you know, when she gives me a suggestion that especially if it's the right answer, it really annoys me. You know, but, yeah, and it does it it it feels, you know, disempowering, I guess, when those things happen.
Mike Coffey:Yes. And I'm probably worse at it than about doing it than she is in her defense. But, for instance, you know, I'm teaching yoga now, and she, went through teacher training with me as well, and she was in my class the other day, and I made a little screw up, and she whispered, hey. No. It's on the right.
Mike Coffey:On the right. You know? Because I was you know? And I'm like, oh, okay. Thank you.
Mike Coffey:And I was like, they were gonna do it anyway. They're gonna do it. Right? I mean, you know, and and I don't I don't need you to tell. And so but yeah.
Mike Coffey:But, of course, the middle of yoga class wouldn't have been a time for her to say, well, are you sure? What would you you know? And she corrected me, you know, I was wrong, and that was fine. But I I saw it. It is it's disempowering and, you know, and I you know, I think I've cultivated the culture in our we've got a high level accountability in our organization, and I've really my employees are able to ask, you know, hard questions of me when they need to.
Mike Coffey:And and I think I do a pretty good job now of of, you know, helping them find the right answer rather than just handing it to me, because, you know, I want them to stick around.
Shelley Goodrum:Something you said earlier about somebody making a suggestion, that that is the same as giving advice. That one might be a good time to ask a question when you feel like you're going to make a suggestion.
Mike Coffey:And you mean a suggestion that's just not a suggestion. No. It's fascinating. A question. Right?
Mike Coffey:So have you thought about or what would happen if Yeah. Those are those are still those are just you're just putting a mustache on on the suggestion.
Shelley Goodrum:Well, and I think that and, you know, and you're right. People don't always have the right answer, and that's okay, because you can always say, okay. Well, what what would happen if you did that?
Mike Coffey:Mhmm.
Shelley Goodrum:And so they're thinking about, oh, yeah. I could do that, but, you know, maybe that wouldn't really work out too well.
Mike Coffey:So how do we go you know, when we know an employee is maybe not going down the right road, And we need them, you know, and we want them to get to the right answer, but we want them them to get them get there themselves. How do we have that conversation?
Shelley Goodrum:That is such a good question because if you're listening for a response, you might miss something. So if you're listening listening fully and not already determining what you expect to hear, you might get an answer that you weren't expecting as better than what you were thinking. So, ironically, this morning, I was reading something. I homeschool my granddaughters, and I was reading something for class this morning. And I read a quote that was you stop learning when you start judging.
Shelley Goodrum:So if you're listening for them to give the right answer, you might miss that there's a different right answer. So if the result is what you are requiring or expecting, that's fine. But their way of getting there, as long as it's not hurting anybody or breaking any laws, might be just fine. So it's not always, necessary to if if it's instructional, if you're teaching, if you're training somebody, that's different. If they don't know, don't expect them to give you the right you know, to well, I don't know.
Shelley Goodrum:How do you think I should I don't know. I started working here yesterday. I have no idea. So when you're training somebody, teaching them skills, then, you know, coaching looks different. But if it's somebody who's worked for you and, you know, knows their job and they're just, you know, maybe not wanting to take a risk or they're afraid of their own judgment or something like that, you can help them build up their self confidence by letting them find their own solutions.
Mike Coffey:And so those are really when we're solving a problem. Right? So I've got a unique thing that I've not encountered before, and, you know, maybe I go to my my leader and say, hey. This isn't you know, this thing's come up. What do we do?
Mike Coffey:And then the leadership should say something along the lines of, well, what do you think we should do? Or what would you you know, if I weren't here, what would what would you, you know, prescribe for that? And then they it's having a conversation around what would, you know, what that would flow like and what the outcomes might be. Yeah. But what about, you know, on the other extreme, you know, it's good to have good coaches, but somebody's gotta be coachable too, don't they?
Mike Coffey:I mean, I you know, I think we've probably all worked with people who have a hard time either taking the risk of being right or, you know, taking the risk of of, you know, taking that initiative. Or on the flip side, it's so certain that they're right in every circumstance that they encounter that they they really can't receive, you know, you know, that that kind of that kind of feedback or or the, you know, the little nudges about, well, let's think about this.
Shelley Goodrum:Yeah. Well, in the context of being a coach, you know, and that's what I do, they're not people who work for me. And I can tell you I've had a couple people that are not coachable because they already think everything's fine. Well, everybody can use some development and that sort of thing. Some people I mean, it does take a certain amount of self reflection and that sort of thing to be coachable.
Shelley Goodrum:And so there are going to be people that are not good candidates for coaching. If they're your employee, they're probably having some other problems too. Mhmm. So it if, you're willing to have somebody work for you that's not coachable, that's a choice. But if they're not coachable, they like I said, there's probably something else that they're not doing well.
Mike Coffey:And let's take a quick break. Good morning. HR is brought to you by Imperative, bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. For 27 years, Imperative has helped risk averse clients make well informed decisions about the people they involve in their business. Whether that means very thorough pre employment background checks, know your customer or any money laundering investigations, or other kinds of business due diligence, if there are people involved, there's risk involved.
Mike Coffey:We help businesses mitigate that risk. You can learn more at comparativeinfo.com. If you're an HRCI or SHRM certified professional, this episode of Good Morning HR has been pre approved for 1 half hour of recertification credit. To obtain the recertification information, visit good morning hr dotcom and click on research credits. Then select episode 139 and enter the keyword Goodrum, That's goodrum.
Mike Coffey:And if you're looking for even more recertification credit, check out the webinars page at imperativeinfo.com. And now back to my conversation with Shelley Goodrum. So, you know, Apex is famous for having an amazing culture. Is would you say that's a is there is there a cultural dynamic to being, you know, having a coach a coachable culture, where that just happens or is that is it one side is just primarily focused on the leaders, being good coaches, or is there something about a culture that really makes, coaching easier?
Shelley Goodrum:Well, I think if you have an organization where, there's a a feeling of trust, so where if you work in an organization where, people are not trusting and there's a lot of back stabbing and that sort of thing, it might come across as, you know, not genuine. And if you're not living what you're expecting, then that's not gonna work. So being a good role model, you know, your behavior needs to to reflect what you expect of others. And but that trust and empathy are extremely important. And if you're in an organization that has neither one of them, it's probably not gonna work very well.
Shelley Goodrum:Maybe with individual leaders in their department where they have you know, you always have those little enclaves and bad companies where people, have learned how to operate within the dysfunction, and it so it might work within their team. But, organizations that don't have a good coaching environment, are probably dysfunctional to the point of maybe not doing very well.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. Yeah. And and that's I you know, and I've seen, like you said, those little pockets in organizations, and most of my experience has been those pockets are, you know, like, they've got a great HR leader, and that person is insulating their team. And wherever they have the opportunity, they're trying to make life better for other employees. But I know one privately owned company that was pretty large here in in Fort Worth that was acquired a couple of years ago.
Mike Coffey:And the, you know, the founder was bombastic and yelled and screamed and had hired a c level team that, you know, you know, emulated his behavior except for the HR person. And so they had crazy attrition and, you know, just very low morale. And the HR person, you know, the VP of HR that came in hung in there as long as they could, you know, until the till the to the cell of the organization, and made it his mission to impact, you know, protect his team, but also impact the rest of the organization. And it was really just one of those things where it's one employee at a time because he there wasn't gonna be a leadership change. And Yeah.
Mike Coffey:You know, and those you talk about not coachable, you know. I think I I certainly think he tried over time just here's what just the straight financials. Here's what the turnover is costing, you know, and here's the, you know, here's what this low engagement is is really costing you and putting hard numbers. But oh, yeah. I see.
Mike Coffey:I totally get it. We need to make all the other managers change their behavior. But even when senior leadership doesn't, that's that's how it is.
Shelley Goodrum:Yeah. Yeah. I worked for an organization. I lived in Maryland for a while, and I, worked for an organization that was, it was an association. And I mean, a a large, very important association.
Shelley Goodrum:I won't say who, but, the senior leadership team was so dysfunctional. And so I wanted to bring in, the 5 dysfunctions of a teen program. Gotcha. And, yeah. And I introduced it to the senior leadership team.
Shelley Goodrum:I said, you know, I'd like to do this program. And they go, okay. That's fine. I go, okay. You have to go through it first.
Shelley Goodrum:And they said, no. So I said, then I'm not doing it.
Mike Coffey:Right. Yeah.
Shelley Goodrum:Because if you're not willing to go through it, then it's not gonna work. So, yeah, I think one of the things that has come up for me with coaching clients is that learning how to function within the environment in which you find yourself and finding, what's important to you as an individual. So even though your job might not be giving you the satisfaction you need, There are other parts of your life that are, and not only that, but re, maybe reimagining what why you're working there. Is it because, you know, the pay is good and you're, you know, trying to, you know, have the experience on your resume? Why are you there?
Shelley Goodrum:If it's so terrible, why are you there? Because you are there. So you're making the choice every day to go there. So let's get it while you're there so that you can make it an experience that's that's bearable for you and you can keep your integrity in the process. So, it, you can show up in a bad environment as being, you know, very centered and, you know, setting appropriate boundaries with the people you work with.
Shelley Goodrum:So you don't walk away, you know, at the end of the day feeling like you've been beaten. So, it's a process though. It's not something you can just say, do this, you know, they have to figure it out. And, it it really, can change a person's life once because it really is about how what you make things mean. And, if you're if you're creating negative meaning out of everything, that's what you're gonna get.
Mike Coffey:So if we have these, know, if we really want a coaching culture and we really wanna our our supervisors to be good coaches and really, you know, help their employees grow in the role and personally. Those, you know, our frontline supervisors and even most of our managers aren't gonna go to an extended course through ICF or someplace like that to be a coach. Right. So what are the basic skills? I mean, you've mentioned asking good questions, and and not listening for the response, but listening, you know, to understand what's going on.
Mike Coffey:And you mentioned empathy, which I wanna I want you to talk about too because, I think that that gets that's got some connotations out there that people, you know, that some managers think empathy means that the employees get to walk all over me. But, but so talk about what skills you think, you know, we could actually train managers in, to help them be better coaches. Because they're not they may listen to the podcast. They're not gonna go to a course, so maybe they'll they'll get something out of this.
Shelley Goodrum:Well, I mean, maybe they should or maybe they should get a coach.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. Okay. Yeah. There you go. Yeah.
Shelley Goodrum:Because I can tell you that the people I coach have been managers for a long time, and they're still learning things Okay. All the time. And it really is a different way of thinking. So I would say that, one of the easy things to do is quit telling and start asking. That's an easy one.
Shelley Goodrum:When you feel like you're getting ready to tell somebody how to do something or you're feel yourself getting ready to solve somebody's problems for them, ask yourself, is this my problem or is this their problem? And so you're setting a boundary of what's mine and what's yours. And, yes, I'm here to help you develop. I'm here. Empathy is I'm here to help how I can so that you can, you know, be able to make your own choices and make better decisions.
Shelley Goodrum:And, I mean, this is about career development. So by being a better coach, you're actually developing your people for the next thing they want to do. And employees love that. They want to know that their manager has their back for, you know, what they might want to do in the future. And that's another good reason for coaching is career development.
Shelley Goodrum:It's not just about problem solving. So, you know, what do you, what, what do you want to do and how can I help you get there? And so coaching is a, is a good way to, help with that as well. Also managing performance issues. If somebody's having a problem, it's like you can lay out the problem.
Shelley Goodrum:It's like, how are you gonna fix it?
Mike Coffey:So that's where the coaching comes in. We still have the accountability piece, the management piece. But then okay. So you didn't hit your numbers or this this behavior is not acceptable or whatever. But then the coaching comes in after we've clarified that.
Mike Coffey:Absolutely. Okay.
Shelley Goodrum:Yeah. So Yeah. The managing doesn't go away. It's just that you have to, when it comes to developing people and getting them to think for themselves, that's where the coaching comes in. So I would say that, so we talked about problem solving, telling, instead of giving ideas on how to do thing, eliciting ideas, which again goes to you know?
Shelley Goodrum:So it's really just changing it to this is you own this, I don't, and so how can I get this? You're not saying that out loud, obviously. But it's like, oh, alright. Boundary. Where's my boundary, in this situation?
Shelley Goodrum:Whose problem is it? And, you know, how can I help them solve it themselves?
Mike Coffey:And that may even boil down to saying, what resources do you think you need
Shelley Goodrum:Yes.
Mike Coffey:To be able to yeah I can totally see and I haven't thought about that till you just said it, but it clicked with me is when I think that's part of the okay. Well, you know, you've got this issue here. Here's a here's the book I read on this. Here's the book you need to read or go do this or or go take this class and rather than saying, you know, that conversation I guess might be something like, okay, so we've recognized this deficit. Why don't, you know, why don't what do you think you need in order to improve here?
Mike Coffey:And, like, if you're working with a lot of people like the ones who work for me, they're not you know, I'm a quick start. I, you know, I'll make a decision and just run with it. They need time to mull over it. And so I might even say, hey, why don't we why don't you think about what what would be a really good, you know, way for you to address this and and how I can support you in that and let's get back together tomorrow afternoon and talk about it and give them time to process.
Shelley Goodrum:Yeah. Because if they feel like they're missing some information, we have a nobody wants to get a problem dumped in their lap that they haven't, you know, had to solve before. It's kinda like I've noticed that even with the homeschooling, both both my granddaughters are teenagers, so it's no joke for just
Mike Coffey:going to teenagers.
Shelley Goodrum:And so, but if I dump something on them and go, okay, here's this assignment And they're going, I have no idea where to even begin to do this. So you can't do that. You, you need to say, what do you need? What resources do you need? What part of it do you, not understand?
Shelley Goodrum:You know? So you're not solving it, but you're setting them up for success. And then if they come back, like you said, you give it to them, they come back the next day, and you're looking at it and you're going you know? Then you are asking questions. It's like, how did, where did this come from?
Shelley Goodrum:Or how did that you arrive at this or that sort of thing so that you can get their thought process Because you can also figure out that maybe they didn't, fully understand the assignment, or they didn't, their thought process is not good.
Mike Coffey:Right. That happens with teenagers and employees. Right? So yeah. Well and so what is that?
Mike Coffey:What is okay so I want to be a good coach, but they come back with something that's clearly not gonna be the resource that's really going to get them to what they want, you know, and either it's you know, maybe it's a lack of effort or maybe it's lack of understanding or, or maybe it's just a lack of experience to not even know where to go. Like, you know, you know, if it's, you know, maybe it's a technical skill or maybe it's, you know, something that they need to to understand deeper. How what and they come back with something that that's not we we can see is not the right answer after we've digested it with them. What does that conversation what does that follow-up conversation look like? So that I'm not disempowering them, but I'm I'm I'm giving them a little bit more navigation into the right area?
Shelley Goodrum:Yeah. Well and it's okay to say, okay. That's not what I was looking for.
Mike Coffey:Okay.
Shelley Goodrum:So I I think that what when you were talking before about empathy where it's, like, making it feel like your employees can walk all over you, that's the same thing here. That's not what you're doing. You're not just accepting bad answers. If they have a bad answer, they need to know they have a bad answer. And, sometimes, I'm gonna get off on a different topic.
Shelley Goodrum:I need to stay clear of that right now. Mhmm. But, if and you say, well, this is what I was really looking for. How did you get to this?
Mike Coffey:Right. Yeah.
Shelley Goodrum:So, again, it's like, okay. Well, I did this and I did that. Okay. Why did you use that resource? What were you thinking when you used that resource?
Shelley Goodrum:So that you can understand how they arrived or what they did. And then, you know, I mean, if they if they're doing if that happens, if they're coming back again and you're having the same issue, then you have a performance issue. Mhmm.
Mike Coffey:And I I do have a it's interesting because I have a friend who owns this business. And his idea, and I've we've talked about it a lot and we're on different pages on it. But his idea is if he sees that an employee is going down the wrong road, he won't intervene. He'd rather them fail and learn and and learn from the failure, which I understand, but I think can be also be very demoralizing when it's a big investment of their effort and time. And he and he's got information that he knows would be valuable to them and he's withholding it.
Mike Coffey:Where would what's where would you balance that? You know, I think I don't think it's cruel on his part to wanna see him fail, but there's that you know, how much do how far do you let them go down the path and waste their own time and the company's resources maybe, but their own, you know, you know, their own mental effort and their own personal investment on something that's not gonna get the outcome that, you know, professionally developing especially for them.
Shelley Goodrum:Well, I think that that, is can be kind of an I gotcha. So I would say that the thing to do is at the beginning is to have an agreement of, I'm gonna let you do this. I'm a let you go all the way through. And I want because I wanna see how you solve this. And just know that if there's something wrong, I'll let you know, but not until you're finished.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. That seems fair. And then but you're saying right up front
Shelley Goodrum:Yeah. You have to say it up front.
Mike Coffey:Making this choice. Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm a I'm a leave this to you, and I'm gonna but I think before they get to the point where they're making a decision, the information that I that I have that they don't have, the the the qualitative information, you know, maybe I I do share that so that or at least in setting the right guidelines about the outcomes. Yeah. And this is what the outcomes really need to look like and this is what your deficits as I see them and you know that are you know that you need to improve are whatever that is.
Mike Coffey:And then let them go down the road to figuring it out and say I'm gonna I'm gonna let you own that. Yes. But you also know the consequences of whether it works or not.
Shelley Goodrum:I think the thing is is that, one of the thing, everybody loves to have choices. So if you were at the beginning of the conversation, say, you got we can do this 2 different ways. One is that I'll if I see you're going down the wrong path, I'll tell you right away. 2 is to let you just go through it. However, which would you rather do?
Mike Coffey:Ah, there you go.
Shelley Goodrum:And so they get to make the choice. And then you can one of the great coaching phrases is when you ask somebody to do something instead of saying, okay. Now you're doing blah blah blah. Are you willing to do it? Because you're you want to get their buy in.
Shelley Goodrum:And so asking someone if they're willing is is, much more effective than just saying, are you going to? Because now they're you're getting commitment by they say, yes. I'm willing to do that.
Mike Coffey:Interesting. Okay.
Shelley Goodrum:And so, yeah, so I think if anytime you can give choices, it's always better. But the more conversation you can if it's a new thing and somebody's really afraid, it's going, you know what? We're not gonna publish anything or we're not gonna do anything with it until, you know, it's the way it needs to be. But I want you to to go through the process so you can learn. And so if you make mistakes, that's fine because I bet you'll remember it next time.
Shelley Goodrum:So, anyway, it it just really is what you have, and that's where empathy comes into. It's like I wanna be real upfront at the beginning of how this is gonna work and what my expectations are, give you the opportunity to ask questions, have some choices along the way. You know, maybe you can't make a full choice, but, you know, within the project, there might be some choices you could give them where they get to make. Or and not only that, but, you know, how are you going to set it up? So if they do run into something in the middle, they know that they can come to you?
Shelley Goodrum:What's the agreement for when when along the way they can come to you?
Mike Coffey:That seems fair.
Shelley Goodrum:Yeah. And if they come to you and want you to solve a problem, what do you do? What do you do? I'm asking.
Mike Coffey:Oh, okay. If they want me to solve the problem, I'm gonna send them back. I'll ask them maybe essay. So so tell me what the problem is? How do you see the problem?
Mike Coffey:Yeah. What do you think we ought to do? You know, what do you think you ought to do? What do you think the next step is?
Shelley Goodrum:Yeah. What have you saw there already? Yeah.
Mike Coffey:What have you tried? Yeah. And what, you know, what what information do you think you're missing? Whatever, you know, to help them.
Shelley Goodrum:Yeah. What's so funny is sometimes you'll be having a conversation with somebody, and they're going, I don't want know what to do, and then they rattle off a half dozen things to go do that. Yeah.
Mike Coffey:Yeah.
Shelley Goodrum:Because they do have the answers more often than not. They're just, you know, not sure. So
Mike Coffey:Well, there's so much more we could unravel there and, but that's all the time we have. Thank you for joining me today, Shelley.
Shelley Goodrum:Oh, yeah. Great. I'm, you know, happy to talk with you. This has been great. Thank you so much, Mike.
Mike Coffey:And thank you for listening. You can comment on this episode or search our previous episodes at goodmorninghr.com or on Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube. And don't forget to follow us wherever you get your podcast. Rob Upchurch is our technical producer, and you can reach him at robmakespods.com. And thank you to Imperative's marketing coordinator, Mary Anne Hernandez, who keeps the trains running on time.
Mike Coffey:And I'm Mike Coffey. As always, don't hesitate to reach out if I can be of service to you personally or professionally. I'll see you next week, and until then, be well, do good, and keep your chin up.