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Eggheads is the go-to podcast for egg industry professionals who are interested in leadership and innovation in the egg world. Host Greg Schonefeld explores the evolving world of modern egg farming, from the latest in cage-free innovations and organic certifications to navigating the economics of large-scale production. Whether you're an egg producer, supplier, or involved in poultry genetics, this show provides the insights and expert discussions you need to thrive in the industry. Crack open the science, strategies, and stories behind the egg industry’s biggest challenges and opportunities.
George Weaver IV:
If you are local to a college, you probably want to have some specialty eggs, right? Because they're the ones on TikTok watching the viral pasture-raised is the future videos. And so they're the ones being like, "I'm going to go buy these eggs."
Greg Schonefeld:
I'm Greg Schonefeld and this is Eggheads. Today we're talking with George Weaver IV.
George Weaver IV:
I go by G4 for short.
Greg Schonefeld:
60 years ago, his great-grandfather, George Weaver I, founded the Westfield Egg Company. Initially, Westfield produced eggs themselves and sold into local markets, including nearby Philadelphia.
George Weaver IV:
And it came to a spot that there was more demand than what our small farm could produce. So at that point, they started reaching out to small family farms in the community, started a mini processing facility and grading the eggs here.
Greg Schonefeld:
Eventually, Westfield stopped producing eggs and sourced exclusively from small family farms in the area. Today, they work with 70 to 100 of these farms around Pennsylvania using a model that's pretty unique in the industry.
George Weaver IV:
Give the farmer the opportunity to raise the birds, source their own feed. We're not paying them a caretaker fee. We're paying them for the eggs and we're contracting for their product.
Greg Schonefeld:
And this sort of model wasn't the weaver's only innovation. Back in the '80s, when people were concerned about the health impacts of cholesterol and eggs, G4's grandfather wanted to show that he could lower cholesterol levels using different farming practices.
George Weaver IV:
So through lighting and some feed practices in his barn, he was able to prove that his egg was like 20 to 30% lower cholesterol than what the nutritional panelists were saying at the time.
Greg Schonefeld:
And that innovative spirit still thrives within Westfield.
George Weaver IV:
I get to follow in a legacy of innovation, which is what led us to the specialty markets today.
Greg Schonefeld:
And those specialty eggs is exactly what we'll be discussing on today's episode. G4 is going to walk us through the types of products Westfield has on offer, why they decided to structure their contracts differently than most of the other major producers. And in a world where consumers have so many options at the egg aisle, how a company like Westfield can hope to stand out.
Today I understand you have a multitude of brands. Can you share some of the different brands that you have under the Westfield egg umbrella?
George Weaver IV:
Yeah. So we have our free-range brands, which the most well known is Nature's Yolk. That's been our legacy brand, it's been around since the early 2000s. Nature's Yolk is exclusively free-range plus. We're 100% Certified Humane, which is our third party animal welfare auditor. And then along with that, we would have our Utopihen Farms brand, which is our pasture-raised, Certified Humane brand. The industry standard for pasture-raised is 108 square foot, and we do 110 for the Utopihen, and we also cap our flax sizes. And we do that intentionally to incentivize what we would consider true small family farming. So the industry doesn't really have a cap on flock size, but we chose to say what we believe pasture-raised is actually small barns, small farms. So our cap for Utopihen at this point is 4,000 birds. Great way to imagine it in your head is either a greenhouse type shaped barn or even just like a small shed that's converted into a chicken barn.
So that's our Utopihen Farms brand. And then within that, we would have cash raised natural, organic, soy-free, corn-free, non GMO eggs, which is an interesting topic. And then we also have duck eggs, which is a unique category with Utopihen Farms.
Greg Schonefeld:
How does Westfield differentiate itself from other players in the specialty egg market? If you were just going to hone in on the one thing that makes you different, is there something that comes to mind?
George Weaver IV:
So we have our own brands like we already spoke about, Nature's Yolk, Utopihen Farms. That is just a piece of what we do. Actually, we do just as much playing in the bigger egg space of custom packing, private label for the East Coast. So we position ourself as a regional East Coast specialty premier packer of choice. So we grade for lots of the names in the industry that you would know very well, we would be their East Coast distribution network. So a lot of companies that are either significantly north of us or west of us will use us as their greater of choice. We are small enough that we're nimble. So things like pick and pack, pulling orders for customers, we can do those types of things.
So Westfield is, I would consider us extremely niche in the egg industry, but we end up playing with some of the really large names and working really closely with them because they all have a niche part of what they do and we tend to do that part of it. We're grading the pasture-raised, the small batch, that their facilities, it would be inefficient to run that SKU across their grader. The way our production is set up is a way that we can do that really well. So we see ourselves as experts in that space.
Greg Schonefeld:
So Westfield sources their eggs from small family farms and acts as a regional greater and distributor on behalf of larger egg brands with specialty offerings. But George himself works more on the sales and marketing side of the business and his success in that domain depends heavily on his ability to cultivate strong and lasting relationships with egg buyers for regional supermarket chains. And in the specialty egg world, the considerations often go beyond just price.
George Weaver IV:
A lot of what I get to step into today being fourth generation is relationships that my dad and my grandfather started. I have a unique benefit because I could say I'm George Weaver and they're like, "Wait, you look younger than we remember," which happens often, breaking into new markets or entering into a new space.
I think one of the biggest things at a dairy manager level, they're seeing lots of guys all the time. They're overseeing thousand SKUs and they're trying to buy appropriately for their consumer base. Some egg buyers are focused on the data and they'll say, "I want to look at turns and I want to look at volume per SKU, per spot." Typically, that's not where we exist. We're a specialty, we're niche, we're duck eggs, we're soy-free, corn-free. So we're kind of in a unique subset. So that typical strategy doesn't work as well because that's not our story, that's not who we are.
So our story definitely resonates the best with people that are trying to position themselves as a store or retailer that is part of something more than just the product. So you'll have retailers and retail chains who are saying things like, "I want our brands that we carry to be exclusively organic", or "I want the brands that we carry to be mission driven that are doing something in the community or are focused on sustainable farming practices." So you have some of those retailers who start adapting that kind of mindset.
I see those people as a little bit more values driven where they say, "I purchase more because of the value I want my store to be positioned at and/or the consumers I want to attract." Something I reference with our product specifically is basket value. Our SKUs, our products, the specialty egg industry in general attracts a higher basket value consumer. When that customer is pushing their cart through the store, when they pick up a pasture-raised, corn-free, soy-free egg, they put it in their cart, their overall basket value is going to be significantly different than the person that's buying a conventional egg.
What's hard is in a lot of our larger retail chains, they are very divisionalized, so they're not really looking at the big store picture. They're saying, "I need my egg set to hit this metric in order to succeed." That is changing from my perspective where people are saying, "Well, if we looked at the whole store, what consumer are we attracting?"
Greg Schonefeld:
Man, that's fascinating because, hey, that consumer that wants pasture-raised eggs that's also going to buy whatever, grade A hummus, they're not going to come to your store if you don't have the right egg selection. So that's hard to measure, right? That probably takes judgment on the end of the buyer. Am I following this right?
George Weaver IV:
Yeah, you definitely are. So what's crazy is you have these chain stores or these co-ops or these franchise type stores and they're not the same. You can walk into one retailer and they say, "This SKU is our number one SKU. It sells amazing. We love it." You walk into the next one and they say, "We can't hardly move a case." And so it is completely consumer driven in my opinion. And so the best thing is for the dairy manager to know their consumer and know who they're trying to attract. If you're local to a college, you probably want to have some specialty eggs, because they're the ones on TikTok watching the viral pasture-raised is the future videos, right? And so they're the ones being like, "I'm going to go buy those eggs." When you can kind of explain that story and you can have some numbers and some trends and things, and obviously there's success stories you can share as well.
But the biggest thing to communicate no matter who you're talking to is if you're comparing this free-range, pasture-raised egg to your conventional $1.20 egg or whatever, the speed at which that sells is going to be different. If for some reason they're looking for turns. And some of them do, I think their metrics are dozens per week. When you're in that, it's not about the dollar in some ways, it's just dozens per week. I want to see how many dozens I move through here because that's more people grabbing dozens, which drives overall throughput or something like that.
Greg Schonefeld:
Okay. And so for that kind of buyer, are you not as good of a fit?
George Weaver IV:
Some, we just aren't. And some we will choose to not even position ourself in because of that. It's like, let's not put a product on the shelf that probably won't work.
That being said, I think dairy managers from my observation are at this interesting crossroad where they're saying, "How do I actually attract the next generation?" Because especially independents are competing against pretty large chains that are doing a quite good job at staying relevant. And so they're really thinking, how does my, what used to be conventional store stay up to date with getting the next generation in? And things like specialty eggs, and you can name it, values driven brands tend to attract that younger demographic.
And so there's a piece of that is changing. I mean, chains like Walmart, chains like Kroger and some of these accounts that are quite massive are making significant leaps towards specialty because it's obvious that they see there's a need to be playing in that space because of the consumer trends that are changing.
Greg Schonefeld:
And now you're going to sell your pasture-raised eggs, but you have your own stipulations on what pasture-raised means. And so you've already shared that 4,000 birds or less and you want these family farms. How does that part of it go where they're going to choose your pasture-raised?
George Weaver IV:
Yeah. There's a lot of people that do it well. Our industry is full of great connections. We get to work with a lot of them on the packing side, and I think that's awesome. And so I think we don't want to forget that.
But when it comes to the actual dairy manager and even specifically the consumer, they're faced with what decision do I make, sometimes it is price point. We all have different price points. We have different targets we're trying to hit. Some of it's because of the way we run our operations and the cost of which it takes to grade an egg. But the second level of that is third party verifications. If the pasture-raised egg that you're comparing us to is not Certified Humane, that right there in my mind is a lesser standard because they're not appearing to a third party audit, which is not many of them in the industry at all. A lot of people are third party audited.
And then second to that, it's really mission and what you're going towards and what you're voting for. Is this company a family farm providing eggs from family farms, or is it a marketing agency, selling eggs or whatever, or is it a Wall Street? And we have all of that in our spectrum, all selling pasture-raised eggs that all look similar at the shelf. Some retail chains don't care, right? And they just say, "I just want an egg that's going to have great marketing behind it, and I want a company that is willing to spend millions of dollars in marketing and support a consumer and really tell a story. That's not us. I think we have a great story and I think we have a great following, but it's not the millions of dollars in marketing."
So you kind of have to let them choose ultimately. And if you ever need an alternative egg, that's us. We are the way of getting your local eggs to you. That's kind of been our mission.
Greg Schonefeld:
Just in my observation of being in the egg industry, if you imagine it's all commodity eggs, everyone's fighting for like this low cost position and it just creates certain incentives and certain environment where it's just difficult to create inspiration and create growth for people, attract talent, all those kinds of things. And that's part of where I think it's so cool to explore this connection with the retailer, connection with the consumer, this ability to just push pricing some and create additional margin and create additional ability to compensate people, attract talent, those kinds of things.
George Weaver IV:
I echo that. And it's interesting because I never spent a lot of time in that space. Growing up, it's always been specialty. But I watched my dad and I talked to him and I see the moves that my grandpa and him made 30, 40 years ago where they said, "What if there's a different way of egg farming? What if it's not all the same?" It doesn't mean it's wrong or bad, just what if there's a different alternative? What if consumers are more attracted to some of these values driven products?
Greg Schonefeld:
And they were very early on that, it sounds like.
George Weaver IV:
Yeah, they were. So the low cholesterol was kind of the first that kind of got some buzz. And they then did one of the first organic farms, that was a big thing that they were really trying to say, "How do we do organic?" And then my dad did pasture-raised before Certified Humane and those places even audited it. It was before it was even like a thing. And then that quick, a bunch of guys jumped in the industry and we were just not prepared to scale in a lot of ways. And so we ended up kind of following the industry, even though dad was kind of dabbling in it for a couple of years prior. So it's kind of been this unique thing that, I don't know, the legacy I'm following is quite innovative.
Greg Schonefeld:
Yeah, sounds like it. So we're talking about how you're selling to the chains or selling to the individual shops and how you're differentiating yourself. Does the buck at the end of the day stop there that, okay, once you're in with the retailer, "Oh, I'm Good?"
George Weaver IV:
The buck does not stop at retail. That's the long and short of it. Sometimes I wish it did, because it's actually easier in some ways to sell it into retail than it is to sell it to a consumer, because consumers are creatures of habits, right? People are used to buying by carton type, by color, by pack size, by like some people are like totally not brand junkies, right? They don't care what the brand is, they just want to grab a product.
And so what happens is there has to be education on why would you pick up my SKU over anybody else's? Retailers can help with that. They can do education. They can say, "Well, we want to upgrade this SKU to one of your SKUs or something," which automatically just gains you a bit more grab. I mean, social media is one way of connecting with consumers, but it's definitely not the easiest. Periodic promotions, getting a higher volume promotional deal where you get people to reach for it, because there's people that are very price savvy and they want to see a 50 cent off or something like that and then they grab for it.
Our industry's been whiplash over the last five years. So it's like ups and downs and high volumes and low volumes and there's all this stuff. We intentionally don't raise prices when the market goes up. We're a fixed price model. So we're cost plus, that's our model. There was no reason to raise our prices when the earn-a-berry market went up high because our pricing strategy hadn't changed. We then suddenly become potentially the cheapest egg on the shelf. What does that do? That drives incredible demand? So it's the long game. There's spikes, but it will drop once the demand drops. So we often see that it's the consumers that buy it and say, "Wow, this product is better than what I was buying before. Oh, and I read the insert inside and I saw some pictures of a small family farm, whatever it is", and then they're like, "I'm going to be return buyer."
Or now this is a different idea I was thinking about recently. It's the budgeting people that are like sticklers for their budget and they say, "I want to only ever spend $50 a month on eggs." I mean, that's kind of excessive, but whatever, maybe they eat a lot of eggs. It's hard to budget conventional eggs. Try budgeting conventional eggs in your budget over the last four years. You're paying one price one week, the next price, the next week. I'm a young stage of my family, so I'm thinking budget. So that's where that idea popped in my head. But I wonder if there's consumers just saying, "Actually, it's actually more cost-effective in the long run to just stick with the brand that's a fixed price model and have that be my brand."
Greg Schonefeld:
Yeah. Well, what's notable though is how much time you're spending trying to get in the consumer's head, trying to get in the retailer's head. One thing I've thought about is even cars, if Henry Ford had just only thought about designing that Model T and that the definition of a good car is the most miles for the fewest amount of gallons and GM came on and I guess really started to differentiate cars, and that all comes out of connection to the consumer. And man, that thing gets no gas mileage, that's a terrible car. Well, to some people it's not.
George Weaver IV:
Right, exactly.
Greg Schonefeld:
And I think there's a lot of value in you taking that approach. And I think you see it with the generations that came before you because your dad was early on pasture-raised. It's kind of cool how you guys have been just early and it really, I think shows the value of working to get in the consumer's head like you do.
George Weaver IV:
Yeah. Thank you.
Greg Schonefeld:
And so now I guess shifting over to the supply side, can you talk some about what your relationship with the small family farms looks like?
George Weaver IV:
Sure. So we have small family farms, we have a farm team of four guys that essentially kind of work on that process. And a lot of the farms we currently have are generational farmers. I would say actually probably 98% of them are not new farmers. So it's farmers that have been farming for years. And then on the specifically on the egg side and farming for Westfield Egg Farms specifically, quite a few of them are second or at least second generation farmers, so they took it over from their dad or whatever.
So the relationship, how that works, we will make connections with farmers about the time they're purchasing their chicks. So they will call us up, they'll say, "Hey, I have a 4,000 bird pasture-raised farm, a 10,000 bird free-range farm, something like that. I would love to work with you guys. I know your name in the community. My uncle, my cousin, my gran..." There's always like, I work with somebody that's, or I know someone that has worked with you before.
We'll then give them a contract. We'll say, "We're contracting for the life of the flock. This is a rolling contract, so both parties can move away if needed, but the expectation is to continue to source this." And then at the time of purchasing chicks, it's always reevaluated so that they know that they'll have a contract for the farm that they're putting in. So we'll sign that contract and then we'll start planning. At that point, it's going to be weeks, half a year, a year till we actually start receiving eggs from that farmer. That'll give him time to start auditing his farm, all of the normal egg audits as well as Certified Humane, California compliant. We have our own auditing system where our team goes out and just ensures that everything is up to spec, up to code.
Those eggs start getting laid. We have supplies out at their farm. They put them on reusable washable eggs cargo supplies. We have our guy that goes around and picks up the eggs from the local farms. Typically, we have each farmer, their cooler on their farm should hold at least one to two weeks worth of the eggs produced from that farm so that we can pick them up once a week. And then all those eggs are coming in here. They are then being washed, graded and processed into the appropriate brand and then shipped out to consumers.
So typically from lay to shelf, is anywhere from two weeks to five weeks, somewhere in that range is typically kind of where it is.
Greg Schonefeld:
A big part of Westfield's company vision is providing support to small family farms. In a time where it feels like the industry seems to be consolidating and moving further from that model, I wanted to know why Westfield's pitched to these smaller producers seems to be so effective.
George Weaver IV:
Our desire is to keep small family farmers operating as small family farmers. They want to be able to work with one person that they can trust, that they can say, "I know how to do chicken farming well. I know where I can source my feed well, I would love to do that and get paid well for that, and then I'm good. If I don't have to do anything else, I'm happy." And our vision is to keep those small family farms doing that. I mean, we have a waiting list of farmers, really long actually, of people that want to join us. And I think that's just because they realize, well, one, it gives them the opportunity to own their own flock. And the reason for that is because we want these farmers to get to operate as their own little business.
Greg Schonefeld:
And a lot of the grower models, maybe the integrator owns the birds, is responsible for the feed, but you're putting that back on the farmer.
George Weaver IV:
Right. Yeah. I think, so frankly, typically it's better for the farmer and worse for us. There's a reason why most people want to own the birds, from an integrated perspective, own the birds, own the feed. When you have that level of control, you can move flocks around, you can say, "I actually want to take that flock out early. I want to do this. I want to do that." We tend to be in somewhat serving the farmer. And so it just forces us to be in a position of constantly being farmer focused and saying, "Ultimately, we can't pull the trigger as quickly on some of these decisions because it's the farmer, it's their business and we're working for them." So the farmer ends up feeling like they are given more of an opportunity to operate in the way. And like you said, some people want that caretaker model.
And we have a couple, like very few, but that we will do it for financial reasons, right? If they're like a single mom, we have at least one or two scenarios like that where they're like, "I can't afford the down payment of my chicks." Great. We'll buy the chicks. We'll do that. We'll make the model work for that. They can do what they love and it's great. But in general, it's the former model that I mentioned.
Greg Schonefeld:
Yeah. And then under that model, you're able to keep your mind in the mind of the consumer and they're able to keep their mind on being great farmers and then you work together in that regard.
George Weaver IV:
Yeah. I mean, even on the farming side, especially in some of our brands like Utopihen Farms where we're being innovative in the space of what does ethically sourced and raised chickens look like. And especially, there's kind of two metrics. One is what we all believe is true. And I actually think a lot of our industry is similar. It can be done in different ways, but we don't want to abuse animals. So I don't think there's that. There's an industry view of what's fair, but then there's a consumer view. And what happens is terminology on a packaging creates a certain perception from consumers. So for example, when they hear pasture-raised or they hear that, they're probably thinking you're like hand feeding the chickens and it's kind of this like, we put the sweaters on for them to go outside type of thing. I'm extreme.
But our goal is to be as close to what is being perceived and trying to actually do that so that the gap between perception and reality as as narrowed as possible within the means of doing it on a scale that can actually scale with retailers and consumers.
Greg Schonefeld:
Yeah, and why? I mean, I guess if you're able to meet the criteria of whatever label, why are you taking that extra step? I would imagine there's extra cost in doing that?
George Weaver IV:
Yeah. Our why specifically here is, I mean, we're a faith-based company. We want to do everything to the honor and glory of God. And for us, it feels as if it is a reflection of our honesty, a reflection of our transparency. And there's lots of creative ways of sourcing a product that skirts the line or meets the standard. Our goal is that we can sit down in front of any consumer and just say, "Let's walk through this. Here's our cards. Here's what we're doing," and being able to do that in good conscience that we're not hiding something or trying to make something look better than it actually is.
Greg Schonefeld:
Interesting. Well, I do want to touch on your specialty, specialty eggs. I don't know what you would call it, but going beyond chicken and you have duck eggs, you have quail eggs, what caused you guys to go down that road?
George Weaver IV:
I think it's that innovation spirit, wanting to try some things. I mean, raising ducks is super hard. Three, I think that's why it's not as common. So really for us, it was driven by the consumer. We had consumer requests. We had retailers, loyal retailers for a decade that were like, "We would like a duck egg." There's studies out that will show that people that are allergic to chicken eggs can actually eat a duck egg. People that are really into baking or high-end dining will really love duck eggs for their creamier baked goods and then quail eggs for their finesse on their cooking styles. And then there's also ethnic roots too, where you'll have culturally you eat duck eggs versus a chicken egg, or culturally you're used to eating a quail egg. And so quail eggs and duck eggs also are there for those types of consumers.
Greg Schonefeld:
So at this point, we've covered retail relationships, customer relationships, and George spoke briefly about partnerships that Westfield has with other egg producers as a regional grading and distribution hub. But he's been vocal about the need for even greater collaboration among players in the egg industry and fostering that sort of collaboration is really what Eggheads is all about. So this felt like an appropriate forum for him to elaborate on that.
George Weaver IV:
Supply and demand is a real issue for our entire country where we'll have significantly more or significantly less. And if we don't communicate with each other, there might be somebody seriously suffering when the other person is like, "I actually have a load or two extra that I wouldn't mind helping you," and vice versa. How do we be better connected? And there's great resources to do that on the trade brokerage type model. My vision is for it to go deeper where we can actually have those connections where I can be like, "Hey friend, what do you need? How can I help you?" I had a conversation this week where somebody says, "Hey, I'm unfortunately not able to move that load because their processing facility is in a HPAI zone, so I'm not sure if I can move eggs in and out of there. I'm not sure what's going to happen with the grading facility." Perfect. We have a grading facility. Can I grade that carton for you? Send in some cartons? I'll grade that.
I think sometimes we end up being a little too siloed, a little bit too like, it's our business, it's our market, I'm trying to shield my customers, I'm trying to build up my empire. Where what if we were a phone call away and said, "You're on the East Coast, got a processing facility. It's a lot cheaper to have eggs sitting in nest run version than finished goods because that date starts." So it's like, how do we work together to better network?
And so my invitation to any listener that's in that space is like, let's connect. How do we do that better and how can we at Westfield be a service to the broader egg industry, not just our current customers?
Greg Schonefeld:
That's a really nice thought. And you're also showing it by example because I mean, you could have thought, "Man, I'm not sharing how I talk to my retailers because I don't want my competitors to start talking the way I talk." And you're not taking that approach, so really showing that by example. And I think it's really cool to hear about you guys and you and your family history and what y'all do.
George Weaver IV:
Yeah, thank you. Thank you. It is very fun to think about the opportunity that we have as an industry. And we actually are in the process. We're about to launch our second processing facility here in Pennsylvania that's right between us and our pocket of pasture-raised farms. And our goal with that is to grow with custom packing, so it's like grow with the industry. We know there's a lot of eggs on the market. There's a lot of people that are looking for somewhere to get graded and the East Coast just has a lot of opportunity for egg diversity on the shelf. And so if we can be a part of that and help service that, that's our vision. That's our goal.
Greg Schonefeld:
That's George Weaver IV, AKA G4, the director of sales and marketing at Westfield Egg Farm, especially egg company with a rich history of innovation that's using a unique model to partner with small family-owned Pennsylvania farms to make sure that sort of operation survives in an age of continuous consolidation in the egg world. We've talked so much on this show about the supply side, but I appreciate G4 giving us insight into the way things work on the buyer side and sharing the different factors that retailers consider in stocking eggs at premium prices. There are also important lessons in the Weaver story about corporate honesty and staying focused on consumer needs that would be valuable in any industry, and we're seeing more and more of that in eggs.
But more than anything, I came out of this conversation with a deep curiosity about duck and quail eggs. I might have to grab a dozen during my next trip to the supermarket. And speaking of eating... George, I have one last question for you. How do you prefer your eggs?
George Weaver IV:
Hey, I love that question. Probably my most consistent is in an egg Burrito, scrambled eggs in an egg burrito. It's pretty solid option. That being said, when you crack open a soy-free, corn-free egg and you do the runny version and it's really dark yolk, that's pretty fun too. Both options are great.
Greg Schonefeld:
Yeah, I was wondering if you would have some turducken version of a chicken egg with a duck egg with a quail egg.
George Weaver IV:
There we go.
Greg Schonefeld:
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a colleague or friend. Word of mouth really helps us to grow the show, and to make sure you don't miss an episode, follow us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Until next time, I'm Greg Schonefeld, and we'll talk to you soon.