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Join Dr. Kim Kutsch, the brilliant mind behind CariFree, as he explores the extraordinary lives of thought leaders in the dental industry, and beyond. Contrary to Ordinary explores further than dentistry - here we unravel the minds of change-makers, paradigm shifters, and world shakers.
Every two weeks, we dive into the stories of our remarkable guests—ordinary people who continually defy limits. Discover their tales of success, resilience, and self-awareness, and explore how they leverage these experiences not only to elevate dental practice and patient care but also to champion personal growth and entrepreneurship. Listen for captivating conversations with innovators who seamlessly blend art and technology, pursue curiosity, and create the truly extraordinary.
Contrary to Ordinary isn't your typical dentistry podcast—it's a vibrant community that's hit #1 in ‘Entrepreneurship,’ #3 in ‘Business,’ and #21 in ‘All Podcasts’ for a reason. We've had the pleasure of hosting inspiring guests like innovators, dental leaders, pioneering inventors, and artists, including Angus Walls, Machell Hudson, Dr. Simon McDonald, Dr. Bobby Birdi, Rella Christensen, Professor Phillip D. Marsh, Carmen Ohling, John Kois, Dr. Susan Maples, Doug Young, Colt Idol, Stephanie Staples, and many more who've graced our mic.
Each episode isn't just a listen; it's a lesson in living an extraordinary life authentically, embracing rebellion, and nurturing leadership. We dive into diverse topics, from mentoring, coaching, personal development, and work-life balance to self-awareness, emotional intelligence, leadership, storytelling, altruism, and motivation. And yes, we also cover dentistry—exploring natural dentists, dental health, dental laboratories, oral care, oral surgery, dental hygiene, caries disease, brushing teeth, and overall tooth care.
Tune in to Contrary to Ordinary for a unique blend of wisdom that goes beyond the ordinary and resonates with all aspects of life! This podcast aims to empower you to be extraordinary in your dental practice and improve not just your dental care but your overall life!
Do you have an extraordinary story you’d like to share with us? Or perhaps a question for Dr. Kutsch. Contact us on our Instagram, Facebook or Twitter today.
About Our Host:
Meet Dr. Kim Kutsch: a retired dentist with 40 years of experience, prolific writer, thought leader, inventor, and researcher in dental caries and minimally invasive dentistry, brings his insatiable curiosity to the forefront. Eager to learn from those breaking boundaries in dentistry, particularly in preventative and non-invasive dentistry approaches, Dr. Kutsch launched the Contrary to Ordinary podcast. As a keen creative and curious mind, Dr. Kutsch extends his podcast guest list to artists, entrepreneurs, and fascinating minds who have piqued his interest. He wants to learn from them and see how he can be inspired by their extraordinary ways of living and adapt his learnings into his own life and his business, CariFree.
About CariFree:
CariFree is the new model for oral health and cavity prevention. Dr. Kutsch is the CEO and founder of this business. They create cutting-edge technology and science-based solutions to common dental health concerns for the whole family, making it easy to banish cavities for good with preventive strategies over restorative procedures. Find out how dentists are using CariFree products to revolutionize their dental practices here: https://carifree.com/success-stories/.
Sheena Hinson:
Anyone, whether you're an entrepreneur or entrepreneur, if you are leading other people, you are at the bottom of that org chart. You're supporting them and they're supporting the others. We talk about capital and profitability and everything, but human capital is a lot more delicate. And if you're not supporting them, letting them know like, "Hey, I want you to succeed, whether it's here or outside of this business or practice," you're not going to get that engagement that you would otherwise.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
On Contrary to Ordinary, we explore the motivations, lives, and characters of innovators who see limitless potential around them. Through these conversations, we hope to provide insight into how you can emulate the mindsets of these extraordinary people in your own life and work. My name is Dr. Kim Kutsch and I spent over 20 years in dentistry before creating CariFree 20 years ago. We offer a range of dental products to the industry and the public that promote the health and wellness of people suffering from the disease of dental caries.
This week, I'm speaking with the inspiring Sheena Hinson, senior marketing manager at Philips. Sheena began her journey as a dental hygienist, but quickly uncovered a passion for business development. Since then, she's launched her own venture and has become an accidental expert in entrepreneurship. Sheena is so full of knowledge that we've decided to split my conversation with her into two parts. Stick around because you won't be disappointed. After achieving success as a hygienist, Sheena found herself asking herself, what's next?
Sheena Hinson:
You learn no matter what you go through, whether it's the hard stuff or not, generally the hard traumatic stuff is what we get a lot of our character from. So I became kind of an accidental expert in hygiene, profitability, and then really just learning the business side of dentistry. And I realized, "Oh, this is kind of something that comes natural." And I had some mentors and friends that were like, "Why aren't you in marketing?" "I'm not a marketer. What are you talking about? That's not what I do." So really just learning and realizing, "Okay, Sheena, don't try to be great at everything. Figure out what feels easy and try to lean in on that versus trying to master the things that suck the life out of you."
And I think when I embraced that, that's when I really started to grow professionally. And just that genuine curiosity like, "What are the problems of the problem solvers?" And really digging in. And I wasn't trying to position myself to sell or to be hired when I put myself out there just learning from people in the industry. And I think in doing that, it gave me this education that I couldn't have planned. And so it was the book, I believe you recommended it, The Art of Impossible. They were talking about it's not always good specialize. And so when I was going through all this process before I read the book, I was like, "Oh my gosh," because everybody's like, "You need to figure out your one thing you want to do." But I'm like, "The constellations in my brain. It all fits together. It makes sense."
So now on the other side of it, I'm like, "It's very valuable to have that some level of knowledge in these different aspects of the space when it's on scaling an organization, human capital." I know who EBITDA is. I'm a hygienist with business acumen, imagine that. And then just learning more about what works from a marketing strategy standpoint. How can you serve others in a way that it's a groundswell? And just kind of putting all these pieces together accidentally, feeling like I was just going in a million different directions on this side of it. I'm like, "Wow, that's positioned to me to do what I'm doing now." And to be able to just genuinely help other people. And when you do that and you try to leave everything a little bit better than you found it, it's fascinating how it all comes back around.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Does it make sense to you now?
Sheena Hinson:
Most days.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
That's an honest answer. I think I talked to entrepreneurs and you're being prepared, but you don't maybe necessarily realize it, but you're following your curiosity and you're in the school of hard knocks and you're learning some hard lessons. Typically, if we do something and it went really easy and turned out perfect, we didn't learn anything from that. But when it's a hard lesson, something didn't go right, it was a challenge and we struggled through it, we always learned something really valuable to take away from that. So who were some of your role models growing up as a kid?
Sheena Hinson:
I would say my mother. She always was a hard worker and did whatever she needed to do to make sure that I had what I wanted, needed and wanted quite frankly. We didn't live in a fancy house, but I always dressed nice, I was able to do sports, she always worked. She was at my ball games, all of that. And just seeing you just do what you have to do. I think that really impacted me more than I realized. But I would say she definitely made an impact, just modeling that if you want something, you work hard for it and you figure it out. And then I would say more in my adult life, I know when I was young, mentorship is a concept that you hear about and you learn about, but it was never a reality. And I think that's the case for a lot of people.
And I think as an adult accidentally really getting into these scenarios with mentors literally changed my life. And it was funny to me how those relationships came about. I would hear them speak about something or I would hear them maybe on a panel at a conference and then go up and just be like, "Thank you for saying that." I need to know, it's comforting to me, it keeps me going to know that some of these people that I say with my air quotes have it all figured out. They're like, "Hey, I've struggled with this too." And I think that authenticity, especially that you can get through mentorship, it really is life-changing.
And it's hard to describe what that does, but when you're an entrepreneur, you think of it like a roller coaster and you're always going to be at the top of the hill, you're going to be at the bottom of the hill. But sometimes it's like a person being a cheerleader when you're at the bottom, sometimes it's the words that a mentor has spoken to you, but that's what kind of gets you up like, "Okay, you're at the bottom of the hill. Keep pushing along. You're going to get back up top in a minute." But those words, and just that encouragement has made the biggest difference for me.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I talk about this quite frequently, that I think we undervalue the role of mentors today and the tremendous difference that they can make in a young person's life, because mentors typically maybe see things that you don't see in yourself, encourage you when you need encouragement, maybe bring you back to reality.
Sheena Hinson:
And challenge.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And challenge you a little bit. I mentor a lot of young entrepreneurs, and I always say yes, I don't get asked too often, but the ones that do, I look at and go, "You know what? And if I can't help you, there's a good chance I know somebody that can."
Sheena Hinson:
Exactly.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And if I can't help them directly, I steer them in the right direction to meet somebody, put them in touch with somebody that can help them. But I think we just undervalue that whole idea of mentors in our current society. I don't know.
Sheena Hinson:
I agree. And I think a lot of people that would make great mentors, even myself, for the longest time, I didn't really look at myself like, "Oh, Sheena, you're not a mentor. You're still figuring it out." But when you start to talk to your mentors, we're all still figuring something out. And I think that more people can make a bigger impact than they realize because letting your mentee know that you don't have it all figured out literally is one of the biggest impacts for them. That's what keeps them going, that's what keeps them from just throwing in the towel. So I think that more people could really make changes in people's lives if they would just embrace that like, "Look, you don't have to be perfect. You don't have to have it figured out. You don't have to overly structure it." But just talk to them, let them know.
Sometimes, like you said, we can see things in them that they can't see in themselves. I know for myself, for sure, that's been the case. And to add to what you said a minute ago about people are happy to help, I think I've never ran into a scenario where people are like, "Oh, I'm too busy." If you're authentic and you're not going in there in a malicious way or trying to take advantage of someone's time, they're happy to get that. They're happy because odds are that's what someone did for them. And I wish more people would look at themselves with that value that they can bring to someone else, even just saying, "Look, I'm a mess, but I'm still doing something. Hey, you should too."
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
So you helped develop a multi-million dollar practice.
Sheena Hinson:
Yes.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
So that really gave you a lot of experience in business, actually.
Sheena Hinson:
Yes. It was so unintentional, never realized I enjoyed math until I started digging into hygiene profitability and found out that I really love numbers, and analytics, and just facts over feelings. And I remember one of the questions was, "Well, if you increase revenue doesn't necessarily mean that you're more profitable." So I called all of the experts like, "How do you measure profitability?" And people were like, "Oh, just three times hourly." And I'm like, "No, what if you're doing a lot of testing or lab stuff that's not, I'm either you give me a full generalization and you say that's what it is, or break it down." So I got into Excel and broke it down to the gals, and again, kind of accidentally became an expert in that space.
But if it wasn't for one of my leaders at the time who's become a mentor, one of the hardest dynamics that I've dealt with professionally, but I learned so much in that because he saw something in me that I didn't see in myself. He knew the potential I had. Whenever he would ask me what my goals were and I would tell him things, he would laugh, "Sheena, what are you doing? You're not thinking big enough." And I would get so frustrated because he would just ask me questions instead of telling me what I needed to do. And I'd say, "Well, what do you want me to do to grow this department?" "Take it to the next level, take it to the next level." "What does that mean?" And it would just piss me off to no end, but I figured it out and it worked out quite nicely.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
The mentoring style that Sheena is talking about is known as Socratic mentoring. This approach is designed to guide the mentee toward reaching their own conclusions rather than being led to the correct answer. Though Sheena may have found this process frustrating at times, it clearly paid off and allowed her to uncover exactly what she needed to do to succeed. Like many of my extraordinary guests, Sheena is a busy person with multiple spinning plates.
Sheena Hinson:
I still have my LLC. I've been quite busy because we've been doing a lot of market immersion, even with our Western Europe teams and stuff with my role at Philips. So I've scaled back my consulting clients and practices, I've wrapped up all of that, but business development is where my heart is. So I just like growing things.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
So you're a partner also in dental systems optimization?
Sheena Hinson:
Yes. So that was earlier in my consulting career. And I'm a big fan of collaboration. Instead of trying to be an expert in everything, let's figure out who not how. So I've been fortunate to have opportunities come my way that have enabled me to stay in my zone of genius and work as a compliment to other people instead of trying to own it all.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right. And you talk about smart goals.
Sheena Hinson:
Yes.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Tell me about that a little bit.
Sheena Hinson:
Yes, because people are like, "Oh, I want to do better. I want to grow." Okay, well, what does that mean? You've got to take it down mathematically like, "When do we need to do it? How much? You got to figure out where you are now to figure out where you want to go." So I think bringing it down to something that is achievable, because one thing that I did learn whenever I was in practice working with my team is you've got to make it to where there are wins. It can't be just a wash and super easy. It needs to be challenging, but it needs to be achievable on a regular basis. So we always have a smart goal. So something that was achievable, but then also kind of that stretch, like, "Oh, this is our big picture if we get, this is amazing." And I think from a leadership standpoint, what made a big difference was as their leader, really flipping that org chart upside down like, "I'm your leader, but I'm at the bottom."
So anyone, whether you're an entrepreneur, if you are leading other people, you are at the bottom of that org chart. You're supporting them and they're supporting the others. And then whether you're in dentistry or whatever, they're supporting the patients. And I think when people hear concepts like that, they think, "Oh, this is a bunch of kumbaya, fluffy stuff, whatever." But there's something to it. We talk about capital and profitability and everything, but human capital is a lot more delicate. And if you're not investing in them, supporting them, letting them know like, "Hey, I want you to succeed, whether it's here or outside of this business or practice," you're not going to get that engagement that you would otherwise. They knew that, again, I wanted them to win. When it came to bonuses, things like that. Any business owner, your bonus check, that should be your favorite check to write, right?
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh yeah, absolutely. Right.
Sheena Hinson:
Because if they're winning, you're winning.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right, absolutely. I think we tend to think of leaders at the top of the org chart. I really love the diagram which you made with your hands, putting the leader at the bottom of the org chart because the leader really supports the entire organization. And I think we often tend to think of leaders as the person at the top, the person in charge, the person who everybody else supports. And there are organizations like that, don't get me wrong, but I think the organizations I see that are really functional, the leader knows when to lead, knows when to follow, and knows when to just get the hell out of the way.
Sheena Hinson:
Exactly.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
And I think too, that when your team sees you as willing to roll up your sleeves, particularly as an entrepreneur, willing to roll up your sleeves and do the dirtiest job that nobody else wants to do, it's like, "You know what? I'm not above that. I will do that." And they grow a tremendous amount of respect. And also, I think understanding that you're there for them, you're going to support them. And if you get in a situation where it's all hands on deck, I'm right there and I'm rolling up my sleeves and I don't care if it's filling tubes or whatever it is, I'll sweep the floors, because I'll do whatever needs to be done to keep that organization going. And I think with that kind of can-do attitude for entrepreneurs, I think that's really important.
Sheena Hinson:
I agree. I agree. And I think they need to see you as a human. I think a lot of leaders are maybe, I don't want to say scared, but they don't like the idea of their team seeing them in that light, that vulnerability,
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Vulnerability, yeah.
Sheena Hinson:
But I think that builds so much of a strong relationship aside from the loyalty dividend, and I think that makes all the difference. A great leader, a leader that is loved and adored. And in any organization, those are the ones, not the ones that are kind of leading and mandating stuff from top down. It's just not as effective. Yes, can you go far doing that? Of course, there are a lot of horrible leaders out there that are building big things, but if we really dug into the attrition or how happy are your employees? What gets them up in the morning? It should be more than just their paycheck. But I think as a leader, it's vital to, especially in dentistry, offices are busy and they're notorious for, "Okay, we'll have our one-on-one yearly, and it's going to be a review." And of course, that's the one time where you talk about any salary adjustments.
And so how can I expect someone on my team to come to me and say, "You know what? I really feel like I could do this better, I want your support" if they feel like that could hold them back from their livelihood being improved from a compensation standpoint, so I think it's important to look at time spent, whether it's leader at the top or a leader within an organization, to have that time one-on-one to where they ask the team or that team member like, "What's going well? How can I support you better? What can I do to ease stress in your day?" I used to love to ask my team like, "What keeps you up at night when it comes to work? Or whenever you come to work in the morning, what do you look forward to?" Because if there's any way possible, I want them doing more of that and less of what drains them. And I think there's a lot to be said for that. And again, this doesn't negate the fact that people need proficiency in a comprehensive for their role.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Across the board kind of, yeah.
Sheena Hinson:
But the impact that that makes when you really put them somewhere where they can thrive, it's fascinating to watch.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Hey, Contrary to Ordinary listeners, I want to tell you about my company, CariFree. We offer affordable science-based solutions to common dental health concerns for the whole family, banish cavities for good, and welcome in a healthy smile and a great first impression. Visit carifree.com for more details. Now, back to the show.
As you're talking, I had this thought, power is assigned, but respect and trust are earned for a leader. So you can be made a leader of a group of people, a team of people, and they'll respect you, your power as a leader or decision-maker, but to respect you as a person and to trust you, that's something that you have to earn. And I think a lot of times, I think in our society, we tend to forget that. This is my position and these are my entitlements, and this is-
Sheena Hinson:
Yeah, I'm the boss.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I'm the boss and what I say goes. And literally, that upside-down org chart really I think creates an opportunity for that leader to really develop a sense of trust with their team and respect that you earn that. It's not something that people give to you, right?
Sheena Hinson:
Well, and I think too, as a leader, you're not doing it right if you're the smartest person in the room. And I think you have to be okay with that. And that's hard. You may give your team member an idea and you're like, "Hey, I want you to take this." And I'd be lying if I didn't say, you put someone on a project. And then it's like, "Oh, that was such a great thing that you did." When it's, "Wow, I came up with that, but I want my team to win." And that's reality, we're humans. But I think that you have to want them to be more successful than you are. That's the only way you can really support them.
And you really have to drop the scarcity mindset and invest in them. I think in many businesses it's like, "Well, I don't want my team to get... I don't want to invest in time and training or outside of the practice certifications, things like that, because what if I invest all this money and then they leave?" But it's like, what if you don't invest anything and they stay the same and they stay?
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Sheena Hinson:
Right?
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Right.
Sheena Hinson:
Or training, I can't afford to block off time for production. We just can't lose it, whatever. But it's really just being more proactive instead of reactive. Yeah, you might block off a half day of production now, but you're going to get that back tenfold. You have to really, I think being able to differentiate what is an investment of time versus what's an expense of time. If you're just doing a team meeting and it's a bickering fest, I say that nicely. Yeah, that's a waste of time. But if you're helping them grow professionally, you're helping them get better at what they do, that I think has a big impact. And there's a huge problem right now with employee attrition all over the market, all the markets, industries.
And people aren't leaving for dollars. I think especially in dental, people are leaving for the opportunity to grow. And yet, it's easy, especially when you get down in practice and you have a dental assistant, dental hygienist, or maybe an administrative team member, it's like, "Well, I can't afford to pay them this much or I can't afford that." There are ways that you can creatively make it make sense. If you've got a dental assistant that loves Dave Ramsey, find them an opportunity in procurement and set them on the difference. You can be creative with that and not cap them out. Because you know what? If you cap them, you cap yourself. And there's a way that you can do it and still have a very profitable business, but you certainly can't do that with a scarcity mindset. That's for sure.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I tend to think that we create our own glass ceilings.
Sheena Hinson:
Absolutely.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
So often I think it's not a matter of somebody else putting a glass ceiling over me. It's like my own mindset, putting a glass ceiling over myself. And to grow and to have your whole team grow, you have to not have any of those glass ceilings.
Sheena Hinson:
Right. And not be afraid to let other people win or outshine you.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Oh yeah, for sure.
Sheena Hinson:
Because if they do outshine you, they're going to remember that you're the one that helped them up. There's a quote that talks about like, "If I'm standing here, it's because I'm on the shoulders of the ones who came before me." It sounds cliche, but it's so true. Even when I think back to some of my mentors that they spoke my name in rooms that I wasn't in, and you better bet, I think of them, there have been opportunities where I've connected even my mentors, and it's just this beautiful full circle thing when you really go all in with it and you're not scared of losing an opportunity for you, when you really just want everybody to win, whatever it may be, whether it's a person or a scenario or a project, leave it better than you found it. There's a lot to be said for that, and it always comes back.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
So you currently are at Philips, and you said that was an accident.
Sheena Hinson:
It was.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
So tell me a little bit about that, you were not looking for a corporate position. As you're describing this to me, it sounds a whole lot like you're in marketing.
Sheena Hinson:
Yeah, I guess so. I guess I am a marketer. I just didn't mean to be.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
I'm listening to that. I'm thinking like, "Okay, well, it sure sounds a lot like marketing." But how did that come about? So now you've accidentally put together this experience as a dental hygienist, your experience as growing a practice and profitability, business development actually in a dental practice in a hygiene department. And then you started consulting, you were part of dental systems or optimization, and then you created your own, as an entrepreneur, your own consulting business where you coach practices, etc.
Sheena Hinson:
Yeah.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Do you see that as a lead-up or a natural progression? Because I'm looking from the outside at you, Sheena, and I go, "Oh, there's Step A, Step B, Step C, Step D. And, oh, logically you would end up here." And because you prepared yourself for that. Do you see it that way? Or does it-
Sheena Hinson:
I did. I didn't mean to, but I did. And I think really when I think of business development and just the work that doesn't feel like work has been more in supporting the dental industry supporters. But the reason I think that I do well at that is because of the experience as a clinician, the experience as a decision maker, the experience working with practices, with individuals, and from an advisory standpoint with dental industry companies. I think all of that has positioned me to be able to do what I do now and do it well. And what I mean by well is to really focus on pragmatically like, "What are the pain points we're trying to ease? What headache can we take out of somebody's day?" And all of my experience along the way has prepared me for that. And I think it was one of my mentors, I was like, "I've been spending all this time." And I really just invested in myself just to go, just to show up.
And then it was like, "I love consulting, I love helping other people, but there were certain aspects in practices that sucked the life out of me." And I was like, "Okay, we've got to figure something out." And so doing that, really digging in and just trying to figure out like, again, "What are the problems that aren't being solved? There are a lot of amazing consultants in hygiene operations all over the space. So what can I do to compliment them? What can I do to help them work more collaboratively?" And I think going in on that mission really positioned me in a lot of different ways for success. The relationships I've built, I would jokingly say I was the talent agent for some of my friends because I'm always like, "Oh, you need to connect with this person." That's just something that comes naturally. I always say I think in constellations, not straight lines. Just can't always articulate it.
But in doing that, when I was talking to one of my mentors, she's like, "Sheena, that was a year and a half really of market research." And she's like, "That's why you are good what you do." And I think it took my mentor saying that to help me see it. Otherwise, I just looked at it as, "Sheena, you've been wasting time trying to figure out or trying to perfect." I mean, I was still working, I was still thriving, but really feeling like I had mastered like, "This is exactly it. This is what I want to do for the rest of my life." And I think there are pros and cons to that contentment, that constantly wanting to do better, that constantly wanting to get to the next level. It's a blessing and a curse. But I think in doing all that, the role that I'm in now, to answer your question, someone passed it along to me and I was like, "Oh my God, I've never even thought of looking at corporate stuff. But it was like somebody wrote this job description for me, what in the world?"
And it was a global opportunity. And I'm not naive, I've got my associate's degree, which has served me very well. But I knew that this would give me experience from a global level, not just on paper, but genuinely learning from dental professionals around the world and my coworkers, the formal marketers that I've worked with. Nobody owns the market on great ideas. So I think being able to come into that under an amazing leader, my boss, is just the best and really sees the value and just that perspective that I bring. It is challenging at times because when you go from the agility of entrepreneurship to a large multi-billion dollar organization, it's a lot different. And the way research is done from a qualitative versus quantitative standpoint and substantiation, not to mention all the compliance and Sunshine Act stuff, that's a whole different education. But I'm learning. Even the hardest parts of it, I'm learning. And I'm sure that it'll help me in the future or it'll help me help someone else that's struggling with it.
Dr. Kim Kutsch:
Thank you so much, Sheena Hinson, for joining me today. I hope you'll tune in next time for part two, where we'll explore the character-building power of struggle, the balance between long-term and short-term thinking, and how reading profoundly transformed Sheena's life. Thank you for going on this inspiring journey with me. Around here, we aim to inspire and create connections. We can't do it without you. If this conversation moved you, made you smile, or scratch that little itch of curiosity today, please share it with the extraordinary people in your life. And if you do one thing today, let it be extraordinary. Bye for now.