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Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.
Hello and welcome to Chasing the Viathan. I'm your host PJ Weary and I'm here today with Dr. Nikki Singh, Crawford Family Professor of Religion at Colby College in Maine and the Chair of Religious Studies there. And we're going to talk about her work in introducing Sikhi, her translation of Sikhi hymns, and her feminist approach to Sikh literature. Dr. Singh, wonderful to have you on today.
nikky singh (00:28.942)
Thank you, PJ. It's a real joy to be here with you. Thank you for giving me this opportunity.
PJ (00:34.704)
Absolutely. So tell us a little bit about your own personal journey with Sikhi and how you came to be a professor of religion, but you know, you've done a lot of work in translation and in kind of a feminist approach to Sikhi literature.
nikky singh (00:53.198)
Now that's a very interesting question and I don't know where to begin because I grew up in the Punjab. This is the foothills of the Himalayas. So before, you know, early on we were all one, the state of Pakistan, ourselves. So I grew up there and in the 60s PJ, the study of religion was coming to the fore in India and you know, elsewhere too, in Europe, America, etc. And my father, parents, both of them had been at Harvard.
Center for the Study of World Religions. So when my dad started the first department of religious studies in India. So here we have religion, which is such an important discipline, but the academic study of religion was really not there. So this was in 1969. So it's a very wonderful department, built like in the form of a ship. So with five different sails and each of them going, there's a flame on top, water around.
So kind of symbolizing that, you know, all these different faiths are going to the same point. So that was kind of quite something in my little town of Patiala. So people would come, there were conferences and so forth, and there weren't too many hotels. So people would stay with us. My parents had, you know, would host. And so there was a wonderful student from Columbia. She was a scholar of Buddhism and she was staying with us for weeks and weeks and we became friends. I was...
I don't know, I was in the sixth, seventh grade or something. And she told me about some schools in America, girls school. So I applied to one and I came to America in 1972. Sikhism was a part of my world. You don't think twice about it. Oh yeah, never thought about Sikhism. Then I came to America and I was in a little girls school in Virginia.
and away from home, away from my language. There weren't nobody, you know, brown, black or in those days. So it was kind of interesting. I was very homesick for a week, but after a week I was happy as a lark and everybody was very, very good to me. And then I started American Transcendentalist. I took a course on that and then reading Walt Whitman, Passage to India.
nikky singh (03:17.518)
you know, that really intrigued me. And I knew I wanted to kind of delve into my own literature, my own heritage. So it was really far away that I became aware and, you know, kind of hymns that I heard as a kid sitting in my granny's lap or my father carrying me around. And so all those things, you know, that musicality echoed and I don't I think it was a distance because again, keep in mind, I grew up in post -colonial India.
So it was the British there. I went to a Catholic school. We learned our father. It really didn't matter. It was like, you know, the nuns were wonderful. I am who I am because of those, my Italian reverend mother. She was so good. So I really, really enjoyed that experience. Didn't know much, didn't even know my own language, so to say. I mean, we spoke, but the written was really later on.
So once I came here, then I got very interested. I went to college. I wanted to study something, you know, I was going to major in international relations, I think, and philosophy, but there was nothing on India. So I wanted to do, and that's where religion was. So I went to the study of religion and believe it or not, my honest thesis at Wellesley College was on what I am doing today.
So it was very early on in life that the literature, the Guru Granth's six scripture was kind of, it was in me, but I really did not have any access to it. And so I'm very, very happy for my high school, for my college, because they gave me the freedom to kind of study and explore my heritage. So I'm very, very grateful to my professors and that honors thesis.
PJ (04:37.648)
Mm.
nikky singh (05:07.374)
was published as a book. And in those days, I got very good reviews. I don't get them anymore. So, but it was quite, you know, young person going to and studying. First of all, it's an anomaly in my part of the world in the Punjab for girls to come out. Boys, it's OK. My brother was studying. No problem. But for a young woman, my grandmother was very upset. But I would go home every summer and study Punjabi. I had Gyaniji, very close.
PJ (05:13.04)
Hahaha!
nikky singh (05:37.07)
and he would come every day and teach me, you know, the good gransabh and so forth. So that's what it's.
PJ (05:43.056)
And now, yeah, absolutely. Is that first book, is that the, I want to make sure I say it, the feminine principle in the, oh, okay.
nikky singh (05:51.022)
No, no, that is grad school. No, no, at that time, no, that's no, it's just called physics and metaphysics of the Guru Granth. Now PJ, my teacher, my professor, Lucetta Maori, no, Nikki, we cannot do physics doesn't work, you know, because physics is something and I was so adamant and I saw Professor Maori, I really want physics because it's the, you know,
the physicality, the corporeality, you know, the language itself. You know, there was something in my mind. And I convinced her and she said, okay, but very reluctantly she gave in. And it's not even my last name because in those days, my name was just Gunan Dacore. I was Nikki Singh in every day, but Gunan Dacore was my technical name. So it's only published under Gunan Dacore. So, yes. And actually it was presented at the...
PJ (06:23.568)
Yeah.
PJ (06:41.968)
Ah, understood.
nikky singh (06:45.742)
President's house. I remember that one summer and the president was delighted. Oh, my daughter has come. This was Ghani Zel Singh. He was also a Sikh. And so, you know, he was very close to the Sikhs and friends and so forth. So my parents and I went, we had a lovely time at the president's house, the Viceroy's house, as it's called. And Gurinder Chanda made a film on that, as you may recall. So anyway.
PJ (07:13.712)
Yeah, well, of course you remember that. That would be, that's quite the highlight. So, and if you could maybe spell out for us your approach, because it's obvious from the kind of the beginning, you were drawn more to the literary artistic side. And so how do you, how does that approach differ from more of a theological or maybe even doctrinal approach to these kind of sick hymns?
nikky singh (07:44.686)
You see, it's always when you study religion, it's the doctrines, it's the ideology.
Who creates them, PJ? It's the elites, it's the theologians, it's the exegetes. And they distance themselves so much from the text itself. The text is so inclusive, so pluralistic, but when we kind of conceptualize it, it becomes something different. And to be very honest with you, the Sikh tradition begins where Guru Nanak, the founder of the tradition, was very much against that conceptualization.
That's where things are kind of coming into conflict. There was Hinduism always. And then at that time Islam is coming into the country. You know, this is, we are talking about medieval India. So Mahmood Ghazni came as early as 1111. And so there's a whole lot. And when people feel insecure, you know, like here is Hinduism that's always been there. Here is the other coming. So both of them tended to get very orthodox and very doctrinal and very kind of lots of.
PJ (08:41.648)
Hmm.
nikky singh (08:51.63)
do's and don'ts. And so Nanak was kind of, in a way, first he was lost, you know. What's all this about? And then later on with his revelations and so forth, it was really kind of just to simplify things. That's what he saw. The one was everywhere. So how do we, there's really no doctrine, there's one being, that's it. But that one is again not a doctrine or a theological concept out there.
that one has to be experienced. So it's a very kind of an embodied approach to the divine. The divine is here, the divine is there. The divine is in you, everywhere. Nothing is without it. So that was his take. And that's how he started writing poetry. He was very inspired. And that sensuousness, the physicality of the poetry really comes.
in his verse. So that's what I have been working on. And my first book, that's what I just read it again after all these years on the aesthetics, you know, aesthetics of Nanak because it's a heightening. What is aesthetics? It's the opposite of anesthetics. We go to the dentist, you get anesthesia, you can't feel. So this is to really feel. So doctrines, the doctrine is, of course, that there's one reality. That is it. But it's not that one out there.
It's a one in here, there, everywhere, and to experience it. And that's what I focus on.
PJ (10:27.696)
Can you talk a little bit more about who Guru Nanak was and why he was important?
nikky singh (10:34.51)
Yeah, well, he's the founder of the Sikh tradition. He is born in 15th century India, 1469 in the Punjab. Very simple fellow, very humble fellow. You know, I just, over COVID, I started working on one of the, one of his manuscripts, biographies, like little narratives, hygiographies, you may want to call them, little stories, and they're just so wonderful and so delightful.
And early on his parents want him to work and he's just kind of jaded. He doesn't like school. He goes and he just isn't not there. There's something missing. And so then he has an experience kind of a revelation. He travels a great deal. Now, that's quite remarkable to be traveling on foot in 15th century India. But something happens, you know, like.
I talk to my students sometimes. I teach in Maine, Colby College, and my students, lots of them are hikers. So they tell me, and they get very interested in Nanak. I remember one of them did an honors thesis on it, you know, Jay Holman did a beautiful job. And that was all on Guru Nanak's travels because he said, I love hiking. So, you know, when you're quite in nature, you see different things, you meet different people. And he was accompanied by a Muslim friend, Mardana.
and he was a musician. So he would play the Rabab. So when Mardana played the Rabab, Guru Nanak was inspired and he would burst into poetry. And so out came poetry, just poured from his, you know, from his being infatuated with the Divine One, totally taken by the Divine One, which is everywhere, all inclusive. So that's who he is. But
So he had a very kind of a personal physical experience of the divine where he really, really felt it.
nikky singh (12:37.038)
composed poetry, but he also wanted to leave a legacy. So I think he was a visionary and he also wanted to make sure, you know, that there is something that continues on. So before he passed away, he had a book of compositions. He also settled down. Once he settled down by the river, Ravi, people started wherever, people were just enchanted by him, simple guy.
He's not talking in Persian. He's not talking in Sanskrit. He's not asking you to recite anything. Just be yourself. There's only one reality. Be who you are. Be who you truly are. Don't be anything other. Be your authentic self, whatever you are, Hindu, Muslim, whatever. Take care of yourself. Why fight with the other? Why be obsessed? Who eats what? You want to, you know, don't eat meat. Don't do this. He was like, you know.
Look at yourself. I think he was much more self -reflected and kind of wanting people, orienting people to kind of discover themselves. So I think he was a bit, I would say he would be very friendly person, kind of inclusive person. So people started coming and a community developed around him. Men, women from all stages of life and all castes. That was a very kind of different religions, different castes. So we had the fourfold caste system.
And each caste had a different duty. Remember the Varnashram Dharma, what your duty is, at what stage, what profession, what your patrilineal lineage was. You kind of followed that. What does a widow do? What does a married woman? All those kind of divisions and stages. He kind of ignored it and everybody came. Eight together, eight together, eight together, Vijay.
Because eating kind of, you know, who do you eat with? Who cooks for you? What do you eat? All these kind of create these circumferences and boundaries. And so he kind of, you know, no, let's all simple meal, vegetarian meal. Here we harvest, we grow the crops, we harvest, we eat, we sing divine praise, we clean together. So very kind of an egalitarian society that he started. And people would sing praise, praise of the divine one.
nikky singh (14:59.47)
And that divine one can be Allah, Rahim, Ram, Goddess, it really doesn't matter. We are all one. So kind of that pluralism and people just, I think, were taken by it. So that was one kind of starting this community. Number two, I would also say before he passed away, he ensured that somebody would continue on. So he passed on the book of compositions that he had to his...
Dear follower. And his name was Lehna. He was a very nice fellow. And it's very interesting. Again, talk about corporeality. So I was, even as a kid, I realized physics was important because when he was passing on this legacy to the second, to his follower, he renamed him. Lehna was called Angad, Anga. Anga means part of your limb, part of your body. So it was the same body going to his follower.
So he had two sons. No, he broke that patrilineal cord, passed it on to his follower, disciple, called him Guru Angad. So he became Angad. And that is how the, so he kind of gave the, passed on his succession and he passed on that book of poetry, that sublime poetry that he had. And.
So Angad passed it on to the third, fourth, fifth, and that's how the legacy continued on. But what we see is this practice of langar, the food coming together, doing things with everybody, seva. These are, if you talk about the ethical principles of Sikhism, you say it's seva. Selfless service to everybody.
Everybody, you want to be selfish. It's not for your ego or anything, for others. That's one. Two, Lungar, which is very, very important. And I just, in fact, wrote an entry, encyclopedia entry on Lungar. It's everywhere, you know, the youngsters in London, youngsters in New York, everywhere serving Lungar, serving during COVID. People did so much. Everybody is...
nikky singh (17:23.31)
invited to have a meal. So this langar started with him, Guru Nanak. Seva started with Guru Nanak. Kirtan, the third one, to sing praise of the divine, that started there. So all these institutions that we have really began with Guru Nanak. So he's the founder of the Sikh tradition and very, very important person.
PJ (17:49.648)
Yes, and obviously so. And you were giving a good explanation before, but it's very helpful to have that summary. You mentioned you really enjoyed the little stories that you were translating. Do you have any particular favorites or ones that you think really give a good view of his character?
nikky singh (18:14.254)
I guess all of them, I suppose. But the other thing is actually the manuscript is 1733. Now there are lots of that genre of narratives. They are associated with Guru Nanak, tons of them from all over wherever he traveled. But we don't have any historical documentation of them. They lack dating, they lack...
PJ (18:17.808)
Hahaha.
PJ (18:24.976)
Mm.
nikky singh (18:41.87)
the authorship, artists, so forth. But this particular manuscript that's at the British Library has the date, 1733. It has the patron. It has the artist, Alam Chand. It has 57 paintings, illustrations with it. So it's a really interesting one. And for me, I really think it's quite radical because what I liked was the theme of Guru Nanak meeting with people. And...
meeting with people, people are taken by him and he's taken by people. So those encounters wherever you are, so meeting with people, there's a Muslim saint he meets and so the Muslim saints meets him and then he comes home and the servant of the Muslim saints, you are so, you're glowing today. What happened? You know, Sheikh, what's the matter? He said today, today I met with
Allah's real devotee. So he was like just seeing again that blushing, you know, like he's so radiant that, you know, so the physicality and the spirituality that he embodied was passing on to people. So those stories I just find are very beautiful. And one story, this is the second last story. Now this very, very interesting.
As you know, the center of Sikh practice religion is the book, the book Guru Granth Sahib. That's the center of Sikh life. And that started with Guru Nanak with his poetry, which he passed on to Guru Angad, his follower, and then so forth. And they were added in 1604. The fifth guru compiled them and enshrined it in the Golden Temple. The tenth made that book.
the Guru forever. No more Gurus. The book is it. So it's a physicality of the Gurus. The spiritual, the light that passed on from Guru Nanak to the 10th is enshrined in that book. So you see the body and the book, the Granth and the body. OK, now this little story, which is, you know, from the B40 Janamsakhi. Guru Nanak
nikky singh (21:04.462)
It's an elderly guru at that stage, so he's about to pass on his succession. He is taking a bath and the second guru is standing there and Guru Nanak is washing himself, bathing himself with a jug of water and he's showing, pointing to him, his bruises on his waist.
bruises? How? What? And then he tells him the reason what happened. He said, the night before I was out there and there was a shepherd and he was reciting my poetry, my poem. It's a beautiful one. The evening hymn that we have recited in Sikh temples and so forth. So he was reciting that and I was with him. And as he was passing, there was this very kind of thorny bushes and I got scratched.
So that, you know, the connection between the guru and the body, the poetry and the body, I think it's a very, very sophisticated little story. And I find all very sophisticated that they're making those connections. And then, of course, the tenth guru makes the Guru Granth, you know, the body of the gurus forever. So so you can see certain connections, those links that are very kind of a primal.
PJ (22:15.376)
Hmm.
nikky singh (22:32.654)
fundamental level from there on. So that to me was just to discover those was just wonderful.
PJ (22:39.632)
And if you don't mind my asking, can you, you're talking about the book is the Guru's body's kind of forever. Can you explain that link a little bit more between the body and the book?
nikky singh (22:51.374)
See, as I said, you know, this is kind of transcendent poetry. This is the poetry that came to Guru Nanak, the Word of God. His poetry was put down in a small manuscript from which people sang in the very first community, so forth. So before he passed it on, when he was passing his guruship, he passed it on to the second guru.
PJ (22:57.52)
Hmm.
nikky singh (23:20.782)
and he passed it on, so forth. So the fifth guru is the one who really compiled the book. It's the Bible for the six. It's a center of everything. And that was done in 1604. So for the six, that's a center of their faith. That's really the guru. So how do we get married? By walking around the book four times. When somebody dies, the book is opened. And every day the book is opened at random, shut at night. So it's really treated.
as the presence of the guru itself. So the fifth guru compiled it, enshrined it in the Golden Temple, there was a whole space was built for it. And that might also be, you know, the six were becoming more in numbers. So to give kind of a collective identity. So they had this central book, they had the central space, and that's something.
which was very, very important for the crystallization of the Sikh tradition, which was accomplished by the fifth guru. And it continued on. And the tenth guru, before he passed away, he said, no more gurus. The book will be the guru forever. So that's how it is. The book is the most sacred item for us. It's enshrined. It's in the Gurdwaras and utmost respect and reverence.
So there is no images, no idols in the Sikh tradition. The book is it. And that book starts out with there is one being, truth its name.
has the poetry, this kind of vision of the Sikh Gurus.
nikky singh (25:04.046)
Muslim saints and Hindu Bhagats from all different castes. So it is a huge text, 1430 portfolio pages, and it has, I don't know, 30 some authors, poets, and it is treated with great respect. So what I want to say is this is really quite a marvelous, remarkable text, which is such a, it's so interfaith. It's really kind of...
shows the eclectic nature of Guru Nanak. It's not only just, yes, God is one or whatever. It's really putting it into practice. Here is the one and it can be voiced in any which way. And just think of India in those days, how the caste system was so rigid. And here, every different caste, different religions.
everybody's coming together. So that's the book and it's really very beautiful poetry. And the last I have to tell you, so it begins with, it's, as I said, it's a huge text. It begins with Ik Konkar Satnam. One reality is Truth Its Name.
And the very end is it's offered as a platter, tray. Tray with the dishes of Sat Santok Vichaar. Truth, Sat Santok, contentment and Vichaar, reflection. So it's kind of, you know, so bringing the epistemology there. This is a knowledge and food again, kind of that link.
Knowledge is important. Food is important. Elementary canals are elementary to our spiritual and physical growth.
nikky singh (26:52.366)
But it's not only to be eaten, it has to be savored, S -A -V -O -R -E -D. So you have to savor it. So that kind of aesthetic experience is very, very significant. So it's not just to memorize, not just to chant, it's not just to parrot things away, but to really, really enjoy. And one other thing I...
PJ (26:57.648)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
nikky singh (27:17.23)
need to mention is that the entire text, most of the text, it's 1430 pages, but most of it is framed in musical measures. So the ancient raga system. So most of it, so it is to be sung. So you can well imagine that the musicality is so important. So everybody, you know, even if you don't understand the words, the music is universal language. And it's also very good as a mnemonic. It helps you kind of.
remember things and the repetition. So it's kind of really kind of creating that aesthetic sense. But again, the rags, it is in the rags, but many of the, you know, the local, local tunes are also a part of it. So it's not just a rigid, rigid raga system, but kind of very, very inclusive, open and innovative at the same time.
PJ (28:10.128)
Thank you, that's a great answer. Even as you go from the presence of the book to the importance of food to the way that music can be savored, even without knowing the words, the emphasis on body comes through very clearly.
And so you've mentioned this a couple times and I did want to ask this And it's an unfortunate fact of human nature that if you tell If you look at a structure of society and you say well, you know These people are all have dignity and they are equal that there are people who will be angry with that What kind of opposition if any did Guru Nanak face when he allowed people of different castes to intermingle like that?
nikky singh (29:06.094)
That's a good question and I don't know if we have much historical documentation, PJ. I do know that the fifth guru died as a martyr. Akbar was very open, the Mughal Emperor Akbar. Oh, very, very open. Land was given. That's when the Guru Granth Sahib itself was kind of compiled. Very, very open, pluralistic. He had a Dine Elahi.
PJ (29:16.56)
Oh.
nikky singh (29:33.614)
scholars came and discussed Jewish and Christian and Muslim and Buddhist and so forth. But that was Akbar. But then his son and grandson, things changed. So Sikhism has had a very, very tough time with Islam and so with so to say the other. But again, it is to see beyond that. And that's why to me the Gurugranth is very important that there are certain historical factors.
Actually Guru Nanak has a very good verse because he witnessed the coming of Babur in 1526. Babur couldn't succeed going elsewhere. He came from Afghanistan. So India was wealth. Here is fertile India, wealth of the country, he wanted to rule. So it was all these economic financial reasons. But sometimes it's considered to be Islam coming over.
Hinduism or Hindustan, you know. And Guru Nanak says, no, it's wealth, greed, greed, greed divides brother from brother. So it has nothing to do with religion. So religion becomes kind of a, you know, we jump on that because it kind of arouses people's emotions. But it's not the fault is not religion. The fault is with people and it is personal greed and pride and arrogance that leads.
So I think he wanted to see beyond that. In fact, he's often popularly cited for saying there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim, because he wanted people to see humanity. That is more important. Being a good human is much more important than being a good Hindu or a good Sikh or a good Christian, because once you are a good human being, you're automatically a good everything else. So there's no sin in Sikhism.
the evil or whatever is universal principles, greed, arrogance, ignorance, attachment, those kind of things. So anger, you know, so he was very open and he realized, you know, not everybody is, but he gives simple little examples, you know, so he goes to a mosque and he's lying, he falls asleep and his feet are towards the Kaaba and, you know,
nikky singh (32:00.398)
the person gets very upset, you know, how could you have your feet? So, okay, turn them around. And they say when his feet are turned, I mean, these are stories, you know, narratives. The Kaaba turns around. I mean, this is not a historical fact, but the point is what Guru Nanak's message related is that the divine is everywhere. You know, we can't be scattered away by these artificial realities. And number two, which I again,
PJ (32:15.472)
You
nikky singh (32:29.966)
I think I want us to think about it because that's kind of the general understanding, of course, you know, God. But the very fact, what's wrong with the feet? You know, feet are an important part of the body. Why do we ignore them? And as we know in the old Vedic times, the caste system is structured on the body because the Brahmins, the priests come from the mouth and then the warriors or the royalty come from the muscle.
PJ (32:39.472)
Right.
nikky singh (32:59.63)
the shoulders, the muscle here. And then the merchants and the agriculturists come from the ties. And then the people at the bottom echelons of society come from the feet. And to me, feet is, you know, I fell down the other day, I couldn't walk. I realized how important feet are. So.
PJ (33:17.776)
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I took my family for a walk. We've been trying to be healthier and I developed like, I have a pain in my foot and immediately it becomes like, Oh, it's not a big deal, but it's like, you notice it immediately. You're like, this is. Yeah.
nikky singh (33:32.558)
It's a big deal. We can't, we can't hobble around. So, so every part of the body is important, you know, so, so he gives, he gives respect to it.
PJ (33:47.088)
Yeah, absolutely. What are some, and I just want to make sure we cover this because the average Westerner is not super familiar with Sikhi. What are some popular misconceptions that you would like to clear up about Sikhi or Sikhism?
nikky singh (34:07.598)
I don't even know if there are misconceptions. People don't even know about it. And that's a really PJ. Six have been built in this country for a century and a half. How much do we know about them? All these almonds that we eat, okra that I eat, these are the farmers, you know, sitting from 150 years ago in California, that whole valley. And there's such ignorance. Early on, there were lots of exclusion.
PJ (34:12.048)
Hahaha!
nikky singh (34:36.91)
exclusionary laws, etc. Sikhs could not marry, Sikhs could not marry whites, could not own land, all those kind of things. But, you know, so from day one, the people they ended up marrying with Mexican women, Mexicans and Sikhs kind of, you know, they had one god, they had 30 years in common, so forth. They may not have had the language, but the community developed early on.
and that's called Mexican Hindus. Even then there was an aberration. They were considered to be Hindus, although most of them were Sikhs, some Muslims, Hindus. But those kind of mistakes have always been there. But over the years, I think, like for example, I was telling you, I wanted to study Sikhism. It would be on the syllabi, but it would get lost. It would just get evaporated. And there were no books.
It was a forgotten tradition. Juggensmeyer said that many years ago and it still is true to some extent. And so people, scholars and so forth, you know, the books that you had, it's a sect of Hinduism or it's a sect of Islam or it's a syncretism of the two, hodgepodge. You know, this is not... Yes, Guru Nanak is historically, geographically, linguistically.
culturally, philosophically, between Hindu and Islam, Punjab, medieval North India. But the religion evolved on its own. It was his personal experience. That's why I emphasize he was a unique person. He saw the world in a certain way. He saw reality and he was talented and that's how he started. That's your earlier question about the importance of him. He could express it and he could...
He was probably charismatic that people just followed him and started, you know, the whole tradition began. So those kind of misconceptions. And then I think our media, US media, does not help either because, you know, after 9 -11, there were so many Sikhs who were victims of hate crimes because there's this kind of mistaken identity and, you know, the Islamophobia. Sikhs were turban, Bin Laden wore turbans. Sikhs are bin Laden's.
nikky singh (37:05.838)
So those kinds of, you know, so I'm really, I must say, I'm very proud of you that you are making people aware of the Sikh tradition because that's something, you know, we talk about other traditions, but Sikhism is kind of, you know, brushed under the rug. So we need to, yes.
PJ (37:21.392)
Oh, thank you. Yeah. Well, I'm really grateful that you are willing to come today and talk about it. Especially in my own ignorance. Like, I mean, the only the first time I saw Guru Nanak was, what's your like your book, right? Like, I'm like, like, look it up. Yeah, I do have to. So.
nikky singh (37:39.726)
Yeah.
PJ (37:44.72)
I want to make sure I heard you correctly. Almonds and okra. Okay.
nikky singh (37:48.622)
So many, there are farmers, orchards there, you know, on the new bus city I just visited in, when was it, in January? Oh my gosh, farmers from, sitting generations of farmers there, doing so well. So many of these, you know, which we don't, we have no idea. Oh yes, lovely, lovely person. He was kind of, I was talking to him, almonds, yes. And he wants to export almonds to China and Saudi Arabia, et cetera.
PJ (37:51.28)
Yeah.
nikky singh (38:17.294)
But I said, oh my gosh, they have lots of nuts there. But he said, no, they want to go in. And this is business, his farm and all from parents, grandparents or whatever. So yes, there's a big, big population of Sikhs who had come. I think the earliest ones came with Queen Victoria for her jubilee and they came to Canada. And from there they came down. They helped build the railroads. They helped with the...
PJ (38:23.152)
Yeah. Yeah.
nikky singh (38:43.054)
mines, etc. So they've been here for a long time. Our first congressman, Asian, Asian, was the Leap Singsond. He was a Sikh, Sikh man who was from California. And I think it was under Kennedy, yeah, thereabouts in the 70s, the Leap Singsond. And now the person for the World Bank, he's a Sikh too, with the turban. So I'm very proud of that.
PJ (38:53.264)
Oh.
PJ (38:59.504)
Mm -hmm.
PJ (39:07.919)
Oh yeah, as you should be. What is the significance of the turban for the Sikh tradition?
nikky singh (39:17.71)
I don't know, but the significance is of the five K's, which were given by the 10th Guru to kind of identify the Sikhs. So long hair, so we do not cut our hair. Sikh, men and women, it's the same thing for both genders. But again, not cutting hair is also kind of that, that's what the yogis did, right? Long hair, like the equivalent of the dreadlocks of modern times.
So it's not just to have that, but to have a comb, to have it nicely combed. So because you're part of society. So this is very significant that the six, the world is important, life is important. So you're not recluses. I'm gonna make a little tangent, PJ, for a second, but I'll come back, remind me of this. What I want to emphasize is, you asked me earlier, what is so great about Guru Nanak? Guru Nanak brought a whole new ideology.
PJ (40:05.68)
fun.
nikky singh (40:17.454)
And that's why I'm saying he was very early narratives that you read is feeling some anxiety because the world is what do we want in spirituality? What is religion all about? Heaven, God, what happens after death? So in a way, all these and the body is bad, no matter what, we should really, it's like the yogis, I mean, they were all kinds of Buddhist, Hindu, tantric.
various yogis that he came into contact with during his travels. And everywhere he was like, why are you famishing your body? Why are you starving? Why are you giving so much pain doing all those things? What harm has the body done? So it was like bringing the attention rather than what happens after death. And that's something feminist scholars have also mentioned, you know, how many of these monotheistic traditions kind of go for...
kind of necrophilic, they kind of really put it necrophilic because it's all after death what happens. Where do we come from? Where are we right now? All that is gloss, all that is missed out. So what are we doing to the environment? We don't care because I'm here, I'll be meeting with my blessed Lord, I'm going over there. So those kinds of attention, so Nanak really, he's bringing attention to the world, to the mothers, where are we born? Such beautiful images of the womb.
PJ (41:43.152)
Hmm.
nikky singh (41:44.014)
That's where spirituality, the divine is there and womb, everything, anything to do with the woman's body is considered very negative in that society. So he's very, very much into this life affirming, life affirming and ethics of joy. I think Nanak brought that. I want to emphasize that again and again. This is my latest one, work that I've been doing. So there is something joyous in this world.
And he's bringing attention to life affirming. So instead of this somato bioanthro phobic, this is kind of philia. Love for the body, love for this world, love for all the beings in this world, not just humans, all beings, cosmic, you know. And I think that's even the langar and the seva, that's all towards fellow beings. We have to help others. We have to feed with, eat with others.
not just live our isolated life. So everything is kind of that word. So that's why the poem, the symbol of the, you know, that's one of the five Ks that the Sikhs observe. They're both saying for men and women that that is to have your hair tied nicely. So you're part of culture. You're part of society. You're not a recluse. You're not sitting in the mountains. You know, you're, I'm just going to be on my own. So that's the other one. The turban now.
The turban, I think that was royalty and so forth. So even when you have images of Guru Nanak as a youngster, it's just kind of honouring your body, I would say. So that's where it starts. But then we also have the this one, the Kada, the iron bracelet. So men and women. And again, I really think I have a book on that, actually. So you have to look at that sometime. I trace these five symbols, which are kind of very...
the way they have been studied and from a very patriarchal perspective, but I kind of trace them to Guru Nanak because this is the 10th Guru, he's taking those five, you know, they don't just pop up from nowhere. So there must be something, literally there has to be something in his subconscious, you know, where when he creates this family of the Khalsa, makes everybody equal that he gives these five things. So the Kata is kind of symbolic of breaking all the
PJ (43:50.704)
Hahaha.
nikky singh (44:07.79)
professional, you know, the cobblers and the teachers, everybody has kind of a social hegemony. He breaks that and every action is sacred, you know, so the karak kind of symbolizes.
PJ (44:22.448)
Yeah.
nikky singh (44:24.014)
And then the other, the sword, just it's symbolic, you know, for liberation, everybody should be free, sovereignty, and then the underpants, that again, the undergarment for, you know, respect for the body.
PJ (44:40.08)
Thank you. Yes. Yes. That becomes across very clearly. Thank you. That was very thorough. I appreciate that. As I look at your work, obviously, we'll have links to several of your books below the video. But we talk about, you have your Sikhism and Introduction that you are responsible for.
nikky singh (44:41.902)
And respect for other bodies.
PJ (45:09.552)
But also you have the hymns of the Sikh gurus. What are some of, you know, if someone wants to look at more of the musicality, the literature side, what are some of your favorite hymns? What are some of the more famous hymns that we have from the Sikh tradition?
nikky singh (45:30.83)
sort of the very core of the Sikh tradition, I would say, the philosophy, aesthetics, ethics.
epistemology, all of that. I think the quintessence of it would be the Japji, Guru Nanak's Japji. This is the opening, opening hymn of the Guru Granth. So the Guru Granth is 1430 pages and this is the first eight pages of it. And this is Guru Nanak and it's beautiful. Oh, PJ, it's so lovely, I have to say. And so the beginning is, Ikonkar Satnam, Kartapurakh Nirpo, Nirvair, Akal Murat, Ajuni.
Saibhang Gurprasad, one being. Ik Onkar. And it's very interesting. So it's a literary, I want us, I want people to know that it's one, but it's not the same monotheistic Jewish Christian Islam, because there is one God, Creator, creation, and the two do not meet. This one is literally numeral one, numeral one. And the second one is Om, which is...
You know, Guru Nanak is in 15th century India. Just think the richness, the languages that he had at his disposal from the Persian, from Sanskrit, from the Indian local languages, so many. But the word that he chooses is Aum, the most sacred syllable, you know, kind of the Indian basic Aum, which is really an experience. If you read the Manukya Upanishad, it is a fourfold journey, a psychological inner journey.
where you start out from a very dualistic perspective. You move into kind of a dreamy stage where all that subject, object, you, me, that color, that color begins to dissolve. And you go into the third stage, which is that of deep sleep or unconscious where you're not aware of anything. But from there, you move on to the fourth. Oh, the totality of everything. And I think...
nikky singh (47:35.886)
This one that Nanak articulates is this experience of oneness, where you actually feel that knowledge. You know it, you're aware of it, and not only aware of it, but you also enjoy it. You know, how often when I'm in a bad mood, I just, you know, you feel so insular, you don't want to deal with anybody, you just want to hide somewhere. But when you feel good on a bright day, it was bright earlier, I think the sun is gone.
It's just you just want to expand yourself. And I think it's an expansion that oneness is here. You have the same reality that I am. So those kind of dualisms and hatreds and circumferences that we boundaries that we create are kind of gone. You are you are a being like mine. So anyway, so that's the one it's kind of infinite. So that one cannot be encapsulated in any which way. And yet that one can be.
mother, father, bumblebee and anything and everything. So that's Nanak. And it's very interesting even when he's spelling out this reality, if you want to ask me a question about doctrine, this the Sikh doctrine is right there. One being is. But it's not a doctrine, it's an experience of oneness. But then it goes on, Satnamkirtan, timeless, birthless, Nirpo without fear, Nirvair, without animosity, no hostility towards it.
I think the very fact that it's very spelt out at the very beginning means that these values were very vital for Guru Nanak. So not to harbor any hostility, not to fear. Fear. Fear makes us very get threatened and I think a lot of negatives take place.
the inside gets corroded. So to me, that's kind of the starting point. And then the end, yes, you asked me. So Japji, all is very, very beautiful. I just worked on it. Peter, you have to read my book coming book, OK? So that will give you the whole Japji because it's really people call not just me, but scholars. There's an Italian guy I was reading and he was mentioning it's like, oh, you know how beautiful this text is and so forth. And it ends up the the.
PJ (49:32.144)
Yeah.
nikky singh (49:51.694)
So this was the prologue to the Japji, then it has 38 stanzas, and then there is an epilogue. So beautifully composed poem. You know, there's a composition. Here it is, here it is. And then there are steps, stairs, so to say, you know, Puri, literally step everywhere. And then the finale is Pavan Guru Pani Pita. Pavan is air. Pavan, that is the guru, the teacher. Pavan Guru Pani Pita.
Pani, water, Pani is the father. Mata Tartmahat. So the entire earth is mother. So that kind of, you know, so it gives you a very familial orientation. So this word that we are living in is this earth where air is very important. That's knowledge, Pani, water. So in a way, the elements.
And then night and day are the two nurses. So the whole world plays in the laps of these, you know, you can call them nurses, day and night. So they kind of in the rhythm. So temporality is important. So it's not eternity. Eternity is timelessness. This is every minute. So you'll see Nanak's a lot of his poetry that deals with time.
Time is a very important theme, thematically. Time is clicking because every minute is precious. This is a very short life. It goes, you know, we can live it up or we can forget, go in oblivion. So Nanak wants everybody to really live joyfully. And in the verse, in the Japji itself is the verse, Sat Suhan Sada Manchao. Sat is truth. Sat Suhan Beauty. Manchao.
joy forever. So these, I don't know, I think the whole Guru Granth is a hermeneutics of this, Sat, truth. So the one is named truth. So which is not just a concept, but it has to be, what does truth mean? To live truth. Higher than everything is truth, but higher still is true living, says Nanak. So the living, so that existentiality, what you do as a father, as with your podcast, that is much more crucial.
nikky singh (52:16.046)
than having faith or belief in something. So each of us is to live and this life is wondrous. Nanak's is the whole mood of his poetry is wonder, beauty, wonder. And that's something we have forgotten, beauty. We don't want to enjoy the something about Elaine Scarry, who's a professor. She wrote a book on beauty and I think all these problems that we have, what we have done to our planet.
is because we don't take joy in the beauty of it. And so Nanak is making us cognizant. This poetry, the Sixth Scripture, is really kind of that, you know, to relish, to savor the beauty that's all around us. That's something that we forgot. So this is all in the Japchi.
PJ (53:04.176)
Yes. Forgive me, how do you spell Chupchi?
nikky singh (53:07.598)
J -A -P -U. It's literally the word is just JUP. That's the name of the composition. And PJ, J -I that we add, which is kind of a suffix, is really a word for respect. So it's just respectful. So I can call you PJG, you know, your name PJ or Nikki G. People, you know. So G is Daddy G, you know, it's just for respect. So JUP is the word. And JUP itself,
of a quiet murmuring kind of you know so this is this this jup is not put in musical measures so this is kind of something to be reflected upon kind of quiet contemplation unlike the most of the gurugram which is all in musical measures so it's very interesting so Nanak's jup is to really really kind of think about it but it has verses you know repetition suniye to listen.
This is so important. Mani, to embrace, you know, so all these, it gives you certain ethical structures there and gives you that love is the highest thing, love. And he spells it out here too in the Japji, the verse about, pakya pav apar, you know, like it's a love, language of love, you know, infinite love.
that we need in the world. So the language of love. So to me, the whole of this Guru Granth Sahib is scripted in the language of love. And I just want to say Guru Nanak, one other thing important about him is, and it's in the Japji itself, is questioning. He doesn't give answers. You know, like we have, you know,
PJ (54:49.04)
Well, I go ahead. Sorry.
nikky singh (55:06.126)
You start out the Bible, God made seven days, Adam.
you know, God, Adam, the rest of the world, you know, so this kind of... And here Guru Nanak is against answers, but he wants us to think, quest, question, question, who knows? And he asked very concrete questions. What was the hour? What was the day? What was it when everything came to be? He's very curious about creation, but he doesn't give any answer. We don't know, but he wants us to think. He kind of orients us.
to kind of reflect and that's what we do in our biology and astronomy and astrophysics and so forth, to figure out where we are, who we are, what is our purpose in life, where did we all come from, for what? So he's making rather than do's and don'ts, the whole text, his whole poetry that I look at or what feeds me, nourishes me is to enjoy life and to question, never give up, always kind of being in that.
you know, thinking and reflect.
PJ (56:14.)
I can't think of a better way to end today's podcast. I want to be respectful of your time, but thank you so much to think about, to live this next week with joy and to live with questioning. I can't think of a better way to look forward to this week. Dr. Singh, it's been wonderful having you on. Thank you.
nikky singh (56:35.182)
PJ, it's an absolute delight to be with you. Thank you. I'm really very appreciative that you thought about it. All the best and keep on having more things on Sikhism.
PJ (56:44.656)
Absolutely. All right.
nikky singh (56:46.958)
Best to you. Bye.