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Welcome to The Culture Code podcast. On this podcast, you’ll learn how to grow, shape, and sustain a high-performance culture with the CEO of LEADx, Kevin Kruse. From designing and delivering highly effective leadership development programs, to measuring and improving the employee experience, you will understand what it takes to cultivate a thriving company culture. Through interviews with Chief People Officers, deep dives into key topics, and recordings of our invite-only community sessions, we bring you cutting-edge, data-backed insights from the most desirable companies to work for in the world.
Kevin Kruse: Hello, everyone. I'm Kevin Kruse. Welcome back to another episode of Culture Code. I'm very excited because our guest today is the Chief People Officer at Denali Therapeutics, Cindy Dunkle. Cindy, welcome! And where are you joining us from today?
Cindy Dunkle: Great to be with you, Kevin, and I am joining from our office in South San Francisco, California.
Kruse: South San Francisco. I just came back this week from spending a month in San Jose. There was this crazy shopping district called Santana Row. I don't know if you know it, Cindy. It blew my mind. I was living above it for about a month, and I just came back this week, and it's kind of like a retail Disneyland—everything's fake, everything's commercial. And I loved it—like 30 restaurants and bars, high-end retail. I saw them mopping the sidewalks early in the morning. It was crazy. Never saw anything like it. So, do you ever go there and hang out?
Dunkle: Oh, there is Santana Row. There are multitudes of these opportunities in the Bay area, and well beyond the scope of the tech and Silicon Valley and the biotech community. We have fabulous shopping, fabulous people, with lots of ideas that come from all different parts of the world. This is the place to be. Talent, fashion, food—yes, this is why we love our home so much.
Kruse: It was the first time. Philadelphia is my home. For those who might not be familiar with Denali, how big is your organization and in plain language, what do you do?
Dunkle: Absolutely, this is, what I would call, and obviously from a biased perspective, a very special organization. It was founded in 2015 as an emerging biotech with really a singular mission to defeat degeneration. We feel that we're at the forefront of some breakthroughs in neuroscience which holds the promise to really revolutionize treatments for lysosomal storage diseases, such as Hunter syndrome, rare neurodegenerative diseases which may be known as ALS and FTD, Parkinson's disease, and Alzheimer's—all the easy ones, right? We're a team of 450 based in South San Francisco, as well as having site presence in Zurich, Switzerland, to really deepen our commercial and our clinical development capabilities and patient advocacy efforts, and recently a site in Salt Lake City to expand our internal capabilities for clinical manufacturing.
You know, Kevin, neurodegeneration is presenting our society with a tremendous challenge to care for people and treat people living with these chronic and often devastating diseases. Recent insights into genetic causes and biological processes underlying neurodegenerative diseases offer an unprecedented opportunity for the discovery and development of effective medicines. We feel that the time is right, and we liken our journey to climbing a mountain. Thus, the name Denali, which captures the formidable challenge in fighting neurodegenerative diseases, but also really the unprecedented opportunity that's enabled by these new scientific insights and technologies.
And you can see I'm very passionate about this, but we feel that we have a relentless and committed team and, through rigorous efforts, are blazing trails toward a future where degeneration is finally defeated. We currently have seven molecules in clinical development, including four therapies in late-stage clinical programs for ALS, Hunter, and Parkinson's disease. And, underlying this progress are our core scientific principles, which are rooted in new insights into the genetics of neurodegeneration, proprietary technology to deliver protein-based medicines to the brain, and biomarker-driven development.
Kruse: So, obviously, a very special company doing important work. How would you describe your company culture in just a few words?
Dunkle: Hmm! Well, when you're pursuing these really difficult and rigorous approaches, I would say, in a few words, it's connected. It's fast-paced. It's collaborative. And there's truly a continuous focus on the patients. Those are just a few words. I'd say broadly, the culture at Denali is deeply mission-driven and thrives on collaboration and shared excellence. In our fight to defeat degeneration, we're fueled by an intensity that consistently raises the bar for exceptional performance. We know that convention is no longer sufficient; we're going to have to extend ourselves and be willing to take big risks in order to achieve our shared goals sometimes.
Kruse: What are some of the ways you foster or sustain this culture? Any unique rituals or traditions related to your culture?
Dunkle: You know, as any organization does, you evolve, and you have to figure out what is going to sustain you because it can't constantly be just a moving target. You can't move the goalposts. And we're really sustained by anchoring to our values. Our environment experiences change over time, not unlike other organizations. But we've evolved from a very small, early-stage, privately-held discovery organization to a publicly-traded company, weathered a pandemic, acknowledged social change, as the rest of the world has, and transitioned into a late-stage organization building toward a fully integrated biopharma with commercialization on the horizon. Whoa! And as we grow, our values have really served as a unifying focus on how we're going to achieve these goals and allow for each person to demonstrate these values through their own unique gifts and talents.
This is really hard. You also have to go back to, "what is culture?" And we, like every company, question this. So, we think more of culture as the inputs to culture and how to multiply that. It's the way that we feel, engage, and have an impact. Thus, for us, the culture equation was born. It's all about, not to get too scientific, the substrates. What are those things to add, such as connection, opportunity, and growth? What are those things that subtract, like silos, uncertainty? And ultimately, what multiplies? For us, that's our values, our purpose, and impact. So, we don't necessarily believe that culture can be measured, but we can think about the inputs. How do we magnify those inputs that are going to multiply?
Kruse: I love that concept, not surprising it's from such a technical, scientific company, and I can promise you, it's the first time anyone's talked to me about culture and used the word "substrates," so gold star for that.
70% of engagement is correlated to the manager, and front-line managers touch more employees than any other leadership group. What are some of the ways you develop your front-line managers?
Dunkle: Some of this is just born out of, again, you're right. You make do with what you have. And I think that was the origin of this is really, we just embrace a relatively flat hierarchical structure and focus more on this “all in” approach. We win together as a shared win state. This encourages collaboration, engagement, and learning across all levels because you end up having early-in-career leaders in project teams with those who have more experience. It minimizes that hierarchical structure where you only gain access to a particular level or leader once you are at this stage in the organization. But for us, as we would all sit around a table, because you had an early career scientist with our CEO, Ryan Lance, who is a very accomplished and published neurobiologist, that crossover connection and not being intimidated but being energized by new ideas and concepts, we have really embraced that based on lack of budget.
That is how we are going to move together, and that's how we're really effectively going to learn, by not putting into place those levels, those layers. In fact, you walk outside of the door here, and in our open space concept, everyone, no matter where you are, comes into the door and finds a seat. There are no offices. I'm sitting here behind closed doors so we can have a private conversation. But that, again, is where this learning takes place, that informal exposure and learning. Clearly, we have over time evolved what is the framework of what we call "Everything is a Mountain" mountain reference to us, so don't be surprised here, but your trek where we embrace that every individual is a leader either of self, a project, a team, or function and devised workshops that are appropriate, that people can engage in.
One example is emotional intelligence. We have learned from many others who brilliantly lay out the framework of emotional intelligence. But we brought in all of our leaders together, and as cross-functional teams, and each person would say, "This is how I experience empathy. This is how I experience motivation." We just took those models and pulled them apart and just practically said, "This is how we do it. How do you do it?" And that experiential exchange has served as a template for how we engage with our frontline managers, demystifying what it takes to evolve in a career, but doing it together. So it's a shared win state for us.
Kruse: I love that shared win state. How do you solicit feedback from employees about the culture and their engagement (e.g., engagement or other surveys, town halls, ?)
Dunkle: Yes, but I'm going to break that down. We feel strongly that in order to get insightful inputs and feedback, it's going to come through trust. We spend probably more time building and engaging. How are our relationships built on trust? That's when you get the real benefit of people telling the truth. So much of our focus is on building relationships so that, as we exchange in one-on-ones, within project teams, occasional surveys (we don't do many surveys) or through focus groups, we get really meaningful insights. This collection is really because people trust. I know there is a concept of a safe space and others; it's because I know your character. I have a connection with you, and I have confidence in you as a capable person. So, our approach to soliciting and engaging in feedback is all the time, and through every form that we possibly can.
Kruse: We've been talking about different programs and measurements. Related to culture, are there any special initiatives or results you’re most proud of?
Dunkle: Yes, it’s not like everything is awesome. My husband, who has been an English teacher for many years, said, “Do you realize the true definition of 'awesome'? You overuse it." Very specific, and maybe, instead of proud, I would say grateful for the acknowledgments in the formation of our Unity and Diversity team. Granted, over the course of time, we have absolutely invested in and embraced having a diverse and inclusive environment. As a result of events, going back in time, even around George Floyd, we recognized the opportunity to bring employees together. This was born out of employees saying, “We want to come together and unify and express our unique feelings and personal experiences relative to these social changes and dynamics.” And from that came this very special employee-led and focused group of individuals who carry the torch on how we are going to invest in a future diversified workforce. It's also through education by having external speakers come in and talk about their experiences from gender, ethnicity, identity, and what challenges they've experienced and how they're moving the needle, as well as community involvement and engagement.
We could have maybe forced and or had a top-down approach to diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I believe there is value in that structure. But I also have seen, and we've run the experiment with this Unity and Diversity team, which extends out and broadens to our entire employee population where this organic, real, authentic, and “Hey, I'm in pain, I'm hurting, this causes me a reason to want to speak out and to get others' perspectives,” has been something that I'm so grateful for a group of individuals inside the organization to foster and lead.
And also in mind, keep sight of why we're here, to defeat a generation, our Patient Connection team, again, a group of employees that based on their focus and their roles and responsibilities help us to engage with patients. Not just of the patient advocacy type but just how we are personally investing in our communities in disease awareness, raising money as well as our science, and supporting these opportunities for patients and even our own experiences as being impacted by the diseases that we're treating and sharing those personal stories.
So those are two very, very important and valuable initiatives, or just the fabric of Denali.
Kruse: What book would you recommend that your colleagues read? (or podcast, video, etc.)
Dunkle: "I Am Enough" by Grace Byers. This is actually a picture book for children. We don't always have enough time to read, but the essence of what happens in this book, in a world of comparisons, is it causes adults or children to pause and reflect on our uniqueness and individuality. The implicit message in this children's book is about self-worth and a growth mindset that can foster a positive attitude towards personal growth. I resonate with this. It can be read in less than 10 min. Basically, the sentiment of Grace Byers is: we're all here for a purpose; we're more than enough. We just need to believe it. In fact, we did read this as a company. So, we have a book club, and you know we've read some big, thick, meaningful novels. This is one everybody can connect to. It goes into our families and into our homes, so we all just like it.
Kruse: That’s great. And what's something, maybe, that you know now that you wish you knew when you first became a Chief People Officer? What would be some advice you'd give to a younger version of yourself?
Dunkle: I happen to be the first employee of the company, outside of our co-founders, and when you're at that stage, you do everything. You try. You solve every problem. You just do everything. And that's the energy that comes with being in an emerging environment. But I've really come to appreciate, don't solve every problem yourself, and it often is probably not the best outcome. But when you engage others, it's a much better outcome than on my own. And, at first, I thought I was being efficient, but more and more, I recognize that the diversity of perspective results in a more lasting and impactful outcome. I would also say, instead of doing everything, do what matters most. We've evolved. So, prioritizing.
Kruse: So, on that note with priorities, we're doing this interview. It's late September 2023. I'm guessing you're starting to make your priorities for 2024. What are the things you and your team are going to focus on next year?
Dunkle: Leveraging the intellectual horsepower, capacity, capability, and the intensity and energy of our existing talent. It is really acknowledging and finding ways that we can recognize through formal programs. How can we challenge each employee? But also, importantly, in our new hybrid environment, recognizing and challenging individuals where they reside and being able to have the most impact. Our role has changed, and to again, think about where we can have meaningful connections, where people are. Some organizations have called people back, which could be good. Some people said, "Do it wherever you are." There are a lot of different concoctions of how this works. We want to acknowledge people where they are and make sure that they can have an impact from wherever that might be. So it's really leveraging and recognizing our existing talent and challenging from where they are.
Kruse: What excites you the most about your company right now?
Dunkle: Without being emotional and without cutting to personal, it's, you know, as I mentioned earlier, for decades, we've seen limited success in the development of neurodegenerative diseases. But because of the dedication and focus of these unstoppable Denalians, we call ourselves, we have four late-stage clinical readouts in the coming two to three years with the opportunity to bring effective medicines to patients and have a significant impact on families. So, we're both excited and driven by that prospect, and we are unstoppable.
Kruse: That's exciting. I love it, and strong cultures have strong identities. I like that you reveal Denalians is your internal term for your colleagues. That's special. Chief People Officer at Denali Therapeutics, Cindy Dunkle. Thanks first for the important work your company's doing, and thanks for sharing some of your wisdom and best practices and guidance with your peers here today. Appreciate the time.
Dunkle: Thank you, Kevin. Great to be with you.