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In the last Season 7 episode, we talk with two powerhouse guests — Alex Carter, Columbia Law professor and best-selling author of Ask for More, and Anne Marie Nest, expert in voice, speech, and executive presence. Together, they unpack how negotiation can be reframed as a collaborative problem-solving process — not a confrontation.
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What is PCMA Convene Podcast?
Since 1986, Convene has been delivering award-winning content that helps event professionals plan and execute innovative and successful events. Join the Convene editors as we dive into the latest topics of interest to — and some flying under the radar of — the business events community.
Convene Series: How to Negotiate with Confidence: Collaboration, Communication, and Executive Presence with Alex Carter and Anne Marie Nest
*Note: the transcript is AI generated, excuse typos and inaccuracies
Alex Carter: Because the fact is that in most negotiations, your quote unquote adversary at the table is actually your partner once that deal is done.
Magdalina Atanassova: This is the Convene podcast.
How do we speak up — for our value, our work, and ourselves — in a way that feels clear, confident, and collaborative?
In this episode, we’re exploring how to reframe negotiation and self-advocacy not as power plays, but as opportunities to build stronger relationships — whether you're managing contracts, asking for a raise, or setting boundaries at work.
Joining me for this conversation are two powerhouse voices:
Alexandra Carter is a Clinical Professor of Law at Columbia and the best-selling author of Ask for More: Ten Questions to Negotiate Anything. She’s trained diplomats at the UN, leaders at top tech firms, and hundreds of professionals on how to turn negotiation into a tool for connection — not confrontation.
Alongside her is Anne Marie Nest, a professor of voice and speech with a background in performance and executive coaching. She helps speakers of all levels unlock presence, clarity, and persuasion — not just through what they say, but how they say it.
Together, we talk about:
• How to prepare for any negotiation with confidence
• The role your voice and body language play in how you're perceived
• Why a “no” can still be a step forward
• And how to practice self-advocacy in the moments that matter most
Whether you're early in your career or deep into leadership, this conversation is packed with tools you can use — starting today.
We start now.
Many people think of negotiation as a high stakes,
combative process.
So how can we shift our mindset to see it as an opportunity to collaborate and problem solve instead?
Alex Carter: You know, I often like to say in negotiation that I don't request,
I recruit.
In other words, I want to figure out as quickly as possible how do I not talk to that person across the table but how instead am I showing them ways that we could be on the same side of the table?
So using questions and other interventions to sort of pull them around and say actually let's look out together at the same goal. Because the fact is that in most negotiations, your quote unquote adversary at the table is actually your partner once that deal is done.
So if I'm working with a hotel or if I'm working with a spirit speaker company or whoever I might be working with as an event strategist.
Once we have gotten to whatever agreement we want,
we're then looking to work together to produce an absolutely incredible event and if it goes well, working together in the future to come. So really thinking about how can we be on the same side of the table and problem solving toward the same.
Magdalina Atanassova: Goal and what are some effective questions that, you know, people can ask themselves before entering such situation.
Alex Carter: Let me give you a couple. So the first that people should always be asking themselves is,
what's the problem I want to solve?
You know, one key to negotiation is making sure that you're actually applying all of your efforts to solving the right problem. And when you're able to think about that and write it down in just a sentence, and then you're so much more clear and confident when you go in to negotiate with somebody else.
So if, you know, I'm working on an event and Ann Marie is the head of a major hotel chain,
and I'm thinking about the problem I'm looking to solve with this conversation is how can I make sure that we're reserving the number of rooms we need and. And also giving the hotel enough time so that, if necessary, Annemarie can book what she needs to.
Right. And so when I have that as a problem to be solved and I come in that way,
then Annemarie can see right from the beginning that we're there to have a conversation,
to try to find something that mutually works. And it tends to kind of take down that initial heat.
You know, the next thing I would say it's really important for people to ask themselves before they go in, you know, how have I handled something like this successfully before?
You know, do you know that when you think about that and actually write the answer down, it can take just a few minutes, but you're much more likely to negotiate better.
Why? Because if I think about a time that something went well, first of all, I'm putting my brain back in that positive,
powerful, creative headspace instead of the disempowering headspace of, oh, God, last time this went wrong or that didn't land well.
So we should always be focused on a time when we have been successful. But the second reason this question is important is it's data.
You know, the way that I negotiate at my best might be the way that, you know, different from the way that Magdalena negotiates at her best or Anne Marie negotiates at her best.
And so thinking about what are the ways that you uniquely are able to get things done when it's tough can help you then find tools that you can use in whatever that situation is that you're facing next.
Magdalina Atanassova: And once you've gone through this process, Annemarie will come to you with your expertise in voice, speech and executive presence. So how does the way we speak and carry ourselves impact the outcome of a negotiation?
Anne Marie Nest: Thank you. Yes.
So you can do all of this background work.
But if you show up and you are displaying a lot of nerves, if your voice is really tight, high pitched, shaky,
of course people aren't going to quite believe what you're saying.
And there are lots of techniques you can do to prepare yourself for walking into a negotiation that will help you to show up with more executive presence, more authority, even if you're someone very junior.
A lot of times people who are junior feel like, oh, I have to show up smaller, or I subconsciously, they're using qualifiers. But the reality is, the more that you're able to show up with confidence and courage,
the more that the other side is going to take you more seriously. So one of the basic things that I work on with people is how to calm your nervous system.
Because when we go into a negotiation, even if we've done all the work, even if we like negotiation, there's a feeling of threat, there's a feeling of, I've got to get this, I've got to win.
They're going to try to beat me. Right? So as much as you can do the mindset work and the prep work that Alex talks about, you'll be in a better position.
And then the first key I give people is to downregulate using their breath. And downregulate means taking your nervous system from and says, I'm okay.
And the easiest way to do that is breathe in through your nose and breathe out through your mouth. And the nose is two, the mouth is four. It's always double exhale.
And if you can breathe down here, all the better. It seems so simple, but it's amazing when people do that before they walk into any situation and they're like,
I was so calm, I could be my best self. My thinking mind was online rather than my nervous system.
Magdalina Atanassova: I love that you're saying that because you also had a session at Convening Leaders.
Both of you actually had a couple of different sessions.
And in one of the sessions,
you really focus on how we could calm down, how to use our voice.
And I find it very interesting, especially with women. Right. We have this high pitched voice and we tend to go very high sometimes, especially when we're excited, we speak fast, we speak very high,
and people don't take us seriously. So in an industry where we have so many women,
how can we do better?
Anne Marie Nest: So I think first to say that calming the nervous system is going to help you immediately because when we're in that threat response. Have you ever heard of fight, flight or freeze?
Yeah,
it's out there in the popular culture now. But what happens is our throat literally tightens up and our vocal folds stretch. So we're going to speak at a shriller, higher level.
Excitement and nervous energy and excited energy are actually quite similar physiologically.
So that's why we tend to speed up and get higher.
So if you can lower that with your breath, first of all, and then second of all, one of the things that I love to have women do is try humming into your chest.
So I know that's kind of funny, but if you place your hand on your chest and you hum at a pitch that makes it feel. Feel like it's buzzy,
sort of that warm, delicious pitch, if you warm up your voice like that, before you walk into this situation, you're doing two things. You're getting the breath going in the way that it should,
and then you're also warming up those resonators so that your voice automatically sounds richer, lower, and in our culture, that equals more commanding.
Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah, I love that. I remember us doing that during the session. Convening leadership. It's very, it felt very nice just being in the audience and doing this exercise.
Anne Marie Nest: There's great new research out about the vagus nerve.
And humming literally calms the vagus nerve.
So you're doing all these things to take your system and go, ah,
I'm okay. I can walk in as the fullest,
best, most confident version of myself.
Magdalina Atanassova: And let's say we do all that and we enter a room and then we have to ask for a raise or negotiate a contract or set some boundaries even.
So, what are the biggest mistakes people make in self advocacy in such a situation and how can they correct them even if they've done all this prep?
Alex Carter: So we're talking about you've done some work,
but you're going into a situation that can, you know, feel pretty nerve wracking. You're going in to advocate for yourself.
And by the way, you should just know first of all that if you are the person who finds it much easier to advocate for your client or for other people than for yourself, you are not alone.
So many people find that difficult. In fact,
more than 50% of people in the US did not negotiate their last salary. So the first thing that Annemarie and I want to say to people out there is that if you have found it tough, you are not alone.
And it's never too late to start learning some new tools that you can bring to this situation.
So I would say before you're going in to negotiate,
knowledge is power.
And so two things you can do. The first is to know yourself as well as possible. So in addition to thinking about,
how have I done great things like this before, how have I advocated for myself successfully before, what's the problem I'm looking to solve here? I love to have people think about what they need.
I call this a needs audit. And it's basically you pulling out a sheet of paper and saying, what do I need from this job? And I like you to do it in two buckets.
The first bucket is tangibles. These are the things you can, you know, touch,
count, quantify. So it could be salary or compensation.
It could be anything else, like vacation days.
It could be resources that are given to you, headcount, other tangible forms of support,
your title,
all of those things.
But then all of us will have had this experience before. Have you ever been in a job where it ticked all the boxes but something was missing and you didn't feel great every day going into work?
That's because you had an intangible that was missing. The intangibles are the values that make our professional lives happy and worth living. Right? So it could be, for me, I want to have challenge in this role.
I want to have freedom or autonomy. I want to have good communication with my manager or respect for the decisions I'm making.
So that's the first kind of information is everything you need. And this means that when you go in,
you'll be able to evaluate the offer better because you've made a complete list of what's important to you, not anyone else, but to you, uniquely and individually.
Second thing I would do is to gather as much information you can about the market these days. Magdalena, when you look everywhere, there are salary transparency laws, at least here in the US and so I might be able to look and say, well,
what does an event strategist working out of Houston tend to make for compensation? And there are going to be compensation bans out there. This is tremendously helpful because we all know there's never one number.
There's a range.
And the more you can practice, especially with tools that Annemarie is going to give you,
the more you can practice pitching yourself and why you should be toward the top of that band,
the better off you're going to be. So you want to know yourself,
you want to know the market,
and also, to the extent possible,
get to know about the company,
ask them where they're going,
what are their biggest goals, you know, who was the last superstar they hired and what made them so fantastic. When you ask those kinds of questions, you're then better able to say, well, since you've told me your goals are this and you're looking for this type of person,
you've just described why I'm a great fit for this company and this role,
that is how you get the messages right that are going to lead to the numbers you want.
Magdalina Atanassova: I feel that we are kind of used to going into such negotiations, especially when we have to advocate for ourselves and say, I deserve this,
right? Because of my. Look at my performance,
look at my numbers, I just deserve that. And we kind of stop there.
And that's not what I heard from you, Alex. Right. It wasn't anywhere on the list.
Alex Carter: No, I mean,
negotiation at its core is about this.
How can I write the other person's victory speech in the process of also writing mine?
So if I've taken time first to ask you questions about,
you know, what makes, for example, you know, a successful person in this role, what are you manager personally working on, where does the company want to go?
The more then I'm able, instead of saying I, I, I,
which do you know, makes you look junior?
It's not just that you look self focused when you say, hi, I'm Alex Carter, and here's what I do and my credentials,
but it makes me look like I'm trying too hard, like I'm the little dog trying to puff myself up in a fight, you know, to look more intimidating. Instead, we want to be thinking about the pronouns you and we.
You, Magdalena, have done a wonderful job at your company of doing this. And,
and here's what we can do together.
Here's how we can better that, expand that, accelerate that.
That shows collaboration, it shows teamwork,
problem solving, and it makes you look much more senior,
relaxed and confident.
Magdalina Atanassova: I love that. Anne Marie, do you have anything to add on the actual delivery of the message?
Anne Marie Nest: Yeah, I'm going to dovetail off what Alex just said. One of the key ways that people can have more confidence speaking on a big stage or even one on one, is to take the focus off of yourself and make it about the other person.
So in a negotiation setting like Alex was speaking about, how can this be about a win for my manager, a win for the company?
Right? So it's not. The focus is not on me.
And when you make it about the other person, it's amazing what happens because you just become more confident in what you're saying and it's about helping them. And you aren't turning your eyes on yourself going, what am I Doing wrong.
How am I doing wrong? Oh, Emory told me not to say it that way. Right.
And along those lines, too. I always like to quote Maggie ****, who is a social activist, an American social activist who said, speak your mind.
Even if your voice shakes.
So if you get in there and your voice starts shaking,
it's okay.
Keep speaking anyway.
Keep advocating for yourself.
Keep doing those things that you know you need to do in that room.
And finally, practice,
practice, practice, practice, practice. Saying it out loud as many times as you can, record yourself. Do it with a coach, do it in the mirror, whatever you need to do.
But the more you practice, like the French word for rehearsal is repetition.
So the more you repeat,
the more confident you'll feel.
Magdalina Atanassova: So what if there is no door? You want to negotiate these things, but there's just no clear way of how you get there. It's not clear who's the right person.
There's no clear path if we're speaking about the career growth or, you know,
renegotiating your salary.
So some companies are, you know, they put so many walls in front of you, you don't know where you should go.
Do you have any advice how you should navigate such a scenario?
Alex Carter: Yes. So, you know, this is not unusual. And sometimes this is accidental.
Sometimes companies are not always set up for professional development.
They're so busy handling the pressing needs of the business that,
you know, people's pathways to leadership or thinking about retention kind of goes by the wayside.
Other times,
the indirectness is a strategy. Right. It's meant to kind of incentivize people to be where they are and not to push to see what might be beyond that.
So I would say once again, this is where questions are your friend and always in negotiation, whether you are negotiating for salary or simply to find out what the path to leadership is,
never ask a question that people can say no to. Right. Is a promotion possible this year?
That is a yes or no question. And the easiest answer for someone to give you is no.
Instead, you might ask, you know,
what is the path to leadership at this company? Can you tell me a little bit more about how you rose through the ranks?
You know, what advice do you have for someone at my stage of the career,
you know, who really loves this company and wants to be able to contribute more?
So thinking about questions that start with what,
how? And tell me these are questions that someone cannot say no to. They are not yes or no questions. And they're questions that are going to give you a lot of information that then you can Use to decide, you know,
what is my path. Perhaps I need to appeal to a different person.
Perhaps I thought June was the right time to ask, but it turns out June is when the decisions have already been made.
Now I know that I need to be starting talking to Annmarie, my manager, in January and letting her know, right? Anne Marie, this is the year that I would love to work with you to make the case for my promotion.
You know, tell me how I can help you do that.
So it could be through questions, questions that you figure out either there is a path for me and it just wasn't obvious before.
Maybe you figure out I need some new skills, in which case negotiate to get that experience,
or you figure out maybe there isn't a path right now. And there, once again,
knowledge is power that enables you to determine, do I want to keep pressing? Do I think there could be a path in the future? Or is this a time for me to look for a place where I'm going to see that opportunity for advancement that I'm not seeing right now?
Magdalina Atanassova: I like that. I like how you're turning a very doom and gloom situation into a possibility and an opportunity.
Alex Carter: You know, in life you don't get what's fair,
you get what you negotiate. And so the benefit of asking for more is that then, you know,
sometimes people are worried to, to get a no.
But Emory and I and I have both found that no can be empowering. That is really useful information.
It's often not personal.
Once again, it could be a timing thing, it could be that you spoke to the wrong person,
but it's data that helps you determine, okay, that didn't work. What are my next steps? And it's always better to have the information and to have asked than not.
Magdalina Atanassova: Absolutely.
And what are some non verbal cues that can make someone appear more confident and persuasive in a negotiation?
And what non verbal cues might they be communicating that they are unaware of that could undermine those efforts?
Anne Marie Nest: So always the non verbals. If you can plant your feet, whether you're sitting or standing, keeping from swaying side to side, keep from fidgeting with your hands. I love using hand gestures because I think that it enlivens the voice in a different way.
But if you're doing this or like some people love to do, the pen or the wedding ring, right.
That's a sure sign that you're nervous.
One of the other clues that people give is when they shake their head in opposition to what they're saying.
So if they say,
yep, there's absolutely an opportunity for you here.
Really take into mind the non verbal that's happening on the other end.
Or if they say we're going to have to keep looking at these numbers,
this means the yes nod. I realize now that your people can't see me. The yes nod means even though they're saying we're not quite there yet, you're really, really close.
Right.
And the more that you can work on your own non verbals and keep yourself grounded and steady, the better.
And I'm going to go back to breath.
I'm going to go back to rehearsal and back to making it about them rather than yourself.
Magdalina Atanassova: I'm actually glad people cannot see me right now because they would be like,
check, check, check. She did all those things that Anne Marie told her not to do.
Anne Marie Nest: No, come on.
Magdalina Atanassova: No, it's good. You know, we don't, that's why we don't share video. I'm kidding.
Anne Marie Nest: I love it.
Magdalina Atanassova: By the way, a fun fact, just a kind of a parenthesis here.
But in my culture we not the opposite way for yes and no.
So sometimes knowing like what you would see as a yes nod in my culture is a no,
which makes things very confusing.
Anne Marie Nest: Oh my goodness, yes. So I, I, all of this, I, I should frame. And this is culturally dependent in America to have to, to stand in your power is a really great thing in other cultures.
You must be more deferential in how you hold yourself. Right. So I am speaking from an American centric lens.
Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. I just realized that, you know, how it can be really confusing,
but also something else is that I realized when I switch languages, I switch the nodes, which is just, I don't know, that's something psychological.
I have no idea how that happens.
Anne Marie Nest: It's your genius mind at play there.
Magdalina Atanassova: It's just something that, you know, just the two things align. Like when you speak a different language, your voice sounds different.
But back to the program.
What are some small daily opportunities to practice negotiation skills?
Alex Carter: You know, I would say that the people close to you are always the best and sometimes the hardest laboratory. And I can see Annemarie smiling and nodding because we talk about how negotiation and self advocacy start at home,
you know, And I just want to say here I'm speaking in fact from an office in my home that used to not be mine. So when the pandemic started,
my husband had the one office in our home that had a closed door and I was working from the kitchen table or the dining room or wherever I could find.
And one time I actually ineffectively negotiated for myself. So I waited until a stressful moment for all of us, which was, you know, a Wednesday morning at 9am during the pandemic.
And I looked at him and said,
why is it that I'm always working right from Grand Central Station here, from the middle of the action,
the table where I'm always going to get interrupted, that was not affected.
I asked a why question, which put him on the defensive.
I asked at an inopportune time when I was heated and he was also stressed.
And so I took a beat and I thought to myself, okay,
this is not the right approach.
So we sat down the next time leisurely on a Sunday,
and I said to him, let's take out our calendars. Tell me what your week looks like.
And he opened up his calendar and he saw that he had,
you know, a bunch of document review and writing. He's also an attorney, but he does a lot fewer of the client facing calls than I do. I opened up my calendar, I had a book coming out, I had podcast interviews, I had some television, I had a few virtual keynotes.
And he looked at that, paused and said,
it looks like you should take the office this week. And I said, thank you, I agree.
And sooner or later we realized that this was a permanent arrangement. And so if you could imagine, I'm now sitting in an office with my husband's fraternity themed furniture from college, long been thrown out,
and it's now what I call the she Suite. This is the office that enables me to do the work that helps a lot of people outside of the home.
So always,
I would say, apply the same tools with the people you love.
Ask open ended questions, listen to what people are telling you.
Pick a good moment when you're going to be at your best in communicating and they're going to be able to hear and receive what what you have to say.
It's so powerful when you see that the tools you can use to negotiate salary are actually the tools that can help you have more productive and even loving conversations with the people closest to you,
but also help you find a collaborative way of making sure that your needs are met.
When your needs are met at home.
That's what's going to enable you often to go out and do the work that you're meant to do in the world.
Magdalina Atanassova: Annemarie, do you think we can do that same thing? Practicing daily with our voice and calming ourselves?
Anne Marie Nest: Everything that Alex just spoke about I find so applicable for negotiating with my preteen daughter.
And one thing that I'm going to add from a voice standpoint is Alex has been using a warm tone.
So sometimes without knowing it, we come into a conversation, a negotiation, a conversation with my teen, with sort of a tone, stern tone or an edge to our voice.
And that immediately puts people on the defensive.
So the more that you can kind of how can I get into this warm tone place?
And so when I talk to them,
my voice is inviting them in and inviting them to relax and open up to what I'm saying.
Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah. And I feel sometimes we really need to breathe like Alex in your situation with your husband before we try to say something.
Alex Carter: Yes. And, and I'll say that I can really only access that warm tone that Annemarie is talking about if I'm feeling compassion for the other person or if I'm allowing myself to be curious about what's going on for them.
If I am in a blame frame of mind, if my full on teenager. Right. Is doing something, you know, I think is disrespectful or, you know, I perceive my husband to be ignoring something that's important to me and I'm focused on I'm right and they're wrong.
If I'm not asking myself questions about it,
it's much harder for me to access then that tone that's going to take the heat down in the room. Same would be true, Annemarie, for a business negotiation. Right. If I'm on the phone with a counterpart over an event,
maybe the event is coming fast and I'm sitting there stuck in a narrative that's saying they're not doing what I need them to do. I'm going to come in probably with that edge you're talking about.
But instead, if I could get curious and ask myself, what might they be needing? What might they be freaking out about? You know, what are the problems they're working on solving over there,
then I'm able to approach the table in a way that hopefully is going to foster more information and get us to that better place.
Anne Marie Nest: And to go back to what you were saying about breath, Magdalena. I think so few people are aware of their breath.
And if you practice it daily, there's a free app out there called I Breathe that reminds you to breathe. And if you can breathe low and slow multiple times a day, then your breath is there for you in those tense situations.
And a lot of times what Alex is talking about,
it takes you out of the sort of attack and into the collaborative frame of mind from a physiological point of view. So she's talking about the Mental shift. And that's the physiological shift that needs to happen that allows you to show up in that way.
Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah, I feel like I need to link in the show notes a few resources in terms of those techniques that you're mentioning,
because, yeah, they're very,
very valuable. Actually pinned on my browser there is a.
It's a website in this case, which is 30 minutes or a one minute breathing exercise for exactly those reasons, to just kind of calm down.
And it's really effective. The thing is to just remember to open the browser tab.
If you could give one piece of advice to someone who wants to be more confident and to,
you know, do the best, best that they can in terms of negotiating and standing up for themselves,
advocating for themselves,
what would it be?
Alex Carter: Wow. Okay. I think that's a good question.
I would say to start from the best of who you are.
Too often we are so focused on what other people are doing or other people's perceived strengths. Be very easy for me to look around and say, you know,
wow, Anne Marie has such great carriage, right? Her posture is so good when she walks in a room. Or Magdalena has this wonderful way of making people feel calm, at ease.
And, and, And I don't have that.
What we like to do when we teach people about negotiation is actually help them focus first on claiming their expertise.
So thinking about what are five words that describe you uniquely you,
when you are at your best,
and writing those down and thinking about how you can bring those to your next situation.
Because the truth is,
research shows the most powerful person to be in negotiation is the best version of yourself.
Not Alex Carter,
not Anne Marie Nest, but yourself.
Anything else, you know, trying to imitate what you see other people do would be like me going on stage wearing somebody else's suit.
It's not going to fit me.
Everyone sees that. It doesn't fit me and it detracts from the best of who I am.
So I would start with those five words,
who you are at your best.
And then just remember,
all you have to do is ask great questions. To start.
You can be an introvert,
you can be somebody who hasn't felt confident in the past,
and you can still be a fantastic negotiator. It is about knowing yourself and asking the questions that are going to help you get to know the other person.
And from there, all you're doing is you're steering a relationship.
That's really it. It's just a conversation.
So take down the pressure,
start from the best of who you are and know that you can do This I promise.
Anne Marie Nest: And my advice would be, you don't have to do it alone.
So a coach is always a wonderful investment.
I work with a lot of senior leaders. No one knows they work with coaches. We. But they're smart and they do.
And if you can't afford a coach, your company's not going to pay for professional development in that way.
Form a book club around Alex's book.
Do those voice and breath videos online together with a best friend.
Just know that the people that go far are the people that are not afraid to ask for help and seek support. And you don't have to do it alone.
Magdalina Atanassova: I love that. Wrapping up. Was there anything we didn't mention? We definitely should.
Anne Marie Nest: Well, I'm happy to talk about the Ask for More group, which is the group that we formed of speakers, facilitators and coaches. And I would invite anyone to come. Check out our website, askformoregroup.com there's lots of resources on there and we're always happy to have a conversation with you.
Alex Carter: Yeah. And following on that,
sometimes when times are difficult or turbulent or hard to predict,
we tend to say, well,
I'm going to focus on myself when things get better.
This is actually when it seems most difficult, when the water is the most choppy.
This is the time to double down,
bet on yourself and invest in yourself.
I always say that every time I've invested in myself, including,
you know, receiving voice and body coaching from Ann Marie or talking to somebody else about how to level up speaking or to write better books,
those are the times that I find myself then making that next big leap.
So now is the time if it feels difficult.
Life is difficult on the outside.
Look inward and you could get to the end of this crazy time we're in and find that all of a sudden you are in a better place.
Magdalina Atanassova: Thank you so much for the time and for all these little nuggets. There will be links in the show notes. All I can say is a huge thank you.
Alex Carter: Thank you.
Anne Marie Nest: Thank you, Magdalena. It was a pleasure.
Magdalina Atanassova: Remember to subscribe to the Convene Podcast on your favorite listening platform to stay updated with our latest episodes. For further industry insights from the Convene team, head over to PCMA.org/convene. My name is Maggie. Stay inspired. Keep inspiring. And until next time.