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“Have the discipline to move through the world with wild curiosity.” - Ken Mossman
“Social media isn’t connection. It’s junk connection — and if that’s your only source of nourishment, you’re starving.” - Ken Mossman
“We’ve been told that strength means doing it all alone — but real strength looks more like being part of a pack, not pretending to be a lone wolf.” - Shaun Dawson
Raising Men is a podcast about parenting, masculinity, and the lifelong journey of raising sons—and ourselves—to be men of courage, character, and purpose. Hosted by Shaun Dawson, each episode features real conversations with parents, leaders, and thinkers redefining what it means to raising men in today’s world.
cause yeah there has to be buying for the
how are you really conversation
so how you doing I'm doing great
how about you oh
I'm doing great okay
now that that's out of the way
yeah and now how are we really doing now
how are you doing really yeah
yeah yeah yeah
so it's like get the get the handshake
I love that get the handshake out
get the handshake done yeah
and then let's lie to each other
and now we can tell the truth that's right
alright welcome back to Raising Men
Today's episode is a really special one to me
because I get to sit down with somebody
whose work has been shaping the conversation
about masculinity and manhood for years
a guy by the name of Ken Mossman
Ken is a leadership coach and a facilitator
who founded Serious Leadership
and developed the Integrated Adult Man program
which invites men to dismantle outdated teachings
about manhood Ken
I gotta tell you I'm
I'm thrilled to have you here
thank you so much for joining me
where where do we find you today
thanks Sean
uh we find me uh
on the second floor of my home in upstate New York
right outside of Saratoga Springs Wilton
I love it that's beautiful
well let's just dive right in
you know
one of the things that you've talked a lot about is
the lone wolf or the lone cowboy
this myth of a man who does it all on his own
why do you think that myth is so persistent
and what's the problem with it
yeah it's a great
it's a boy
it's a great place to start John
um I think the myth is persistent because the
the culture has this
uh attachment to this notion of
not only notion of independence
but notion of of of
of quote unquote fierce independence
and uh
you know and what are the
what are the cultural icons we turn to in terms of
in terms of that kind of fierce independence
well it's
you know this
this notion of the self made man again
you mentioned the lone cowboy
lone wolf lone cowboy
um but if we really take a step back and look
at at
at those ideas first of all
and I know we talked about this a little bit
when you and I first spoke
you know and
and we'll use the lone cowboy as an example
so the lone cowboy of course
had a horse you know
he's out on the range he might be out there by himself
cattle etcetera etcetera sure
but he's got his horse he's got his saddle
he's got his his uh
his his rifle
he's got all the tack
that goes along with having a horse out
now unless bullets gunpowder
yeah food
yeah the whole
the whole the whole thing
and unless he's uh
singularly a leather smith
you know a leather worker to make the saddle
unless he's a blacksmith to forge the horseshoes
and the the barrel of the rifle
et cetera et cetera
et cetera you know
unless he made his own boots
went out there and uh
you know tanned his own leather
all of that stuff there were other people involved
you know certainly other creatures involved
but there were other people involved
and the same idea goes for the
the the
the self made man well
if the self made man created a business
if he is relying on customers
if he's relying on any kind of help at all
yeah there's a big difference between being an
an idea guy wildly important
you know wildly important
and there's a big stretch between oh
I'm an idea
guy or there's an idea guy who had an amazing idea
you know an amazing idea um
and there's lots of examples out there of of
of course businesses that grew out of amazing ideas
but if we really back up and look at okay
were they really self made
or did they take that idea and run
and enlist other people
if they didn't enlist other people then uh
chances are even if they consider themselves self made
there's there isn't much that got made yeah
we stand on the shoulders of giants
don't we well
we shall stand on the shoulders of giants
but we also depend on the you know
I mentioned the business and the customers
we depend on the people who show up to buy the service
or the good or whatever that we're creating um
we rely on others there's a whole network
there's a whole system at play there that
that flies in the face the evidence
flies in the face of the notion of the self made man
yeah you know
I that isn't to say that well
I just finish a thought you know
that isn't to say that one shouldn't pursue those ideas
and those visions and those dreams absolutely
but just be clear that it's
it's gonna take more than just you in a bubble
or out on the range somewhere
yeah and that's where the problem is
is and and in fact
if you don't actually figure out
how to get around the myth
you probably won't accomplish much
will you if
if the
if the lone cowboy didn't have someone to make boots
he wouldn't have boots
and if he didn't seek that person out
and if he didn't have the humility to understand that
that's not something that he brings to the table
you need to figure out what you bring
uniquely to the table and cultivate that
as opposed to trying to do everything
yeah for sure yeah
trying to do everything leads it it hahaha well
for one thing it eventually leads to
to just fritzing out to burning out absolutely um
but yeah we need other people we need to be in
in relationship with uh
with others if we are we're gonna get anywhere yeah
I when it comes to to parenthood
I suffered from this disease so seriously
and my wife suffers from it too and
and so we really uh
we really struggled in that sense
and one of the things that was
where it was a really acute struggle for me is
when my son was born he was our first born um
I didn't connect with him right away and my wife did
she he'd been growing in her belly and when he came out
it was they
they they weren't meeting for the first time right
they were seeing each other for the first time
and it's a different thing
they were already in love and for
me that didn't happen
and I thought I was a sociopath
and I was going through that completely by myself
and I I
I what is wrong with me
I do not love this crying
pooping puking thing
um and it came later for me
and there were a lot of men that I saw
making a lot of noise about how much they love their
their their child and
and their baby right
when he came out I just
you know I saw him
and I loved him more than anything in the world
and I knew I would give my life for this
that's the story that's another myth
right that
that that is so pervasive
and that just wasn't true for me
so I felt like something was wrong
and what I found out is
as soon as I started opening up to other fathers
that that's the common thing
that's
the vast majority of fathers feel the exact same way
they feel
they don't feel connected with their sons until much
much later on and it shocked them too
and they went through it alone also
and it wasn't until I started sharing this thing
that was shameful for me
I come to find out that everybody has it
well you
there's a few things in there Sean
um
you know one of them is that that
you know you raised the
you raised the flag of shame there
um
and oh boy
we could do we could do a
we could do a 6 months show
I think we probably could
so maybe let's not
let's let's not
let's maybe not go there but
but and I'm really curious
and that is what had you
reach out and start sharing what you were going through
with other other
other men and other fathers in particular
that's a fantastic question
and what it came down to for me was
I had this realization about the lone wolf thing
that you mentioned the
the cowboy doesn't make his own boots
and
I realized that
I didn't have to go through this stuff alone
around that same time I had a friend
really really close friend
been one of my best friends since eighth grade
he came to me
and he told me he was getting a divorce after 20 years
and I
I was shocked and I had the typical react
oh what are we gonna
we gotta fix this thing
you can't get a divorce and all this stuff
and then he started telling me why
and he shared with me
the way his life had been in the last decade
and about all the struggles that he's been through
and I had two realizations at this time
this is one of my closest friends ever
and I didn't know this
for 10 years he'd been struggling with this thing
and I had no idea
and I felt two things at one time I felt
mad at him that he never came to me
and I felt like a failure as a friend
that I didn't elicit this from him
and then I also realized
that I had my own struggles over the past 10 years
and I hadn't shared any of them with him either
and that shocked me out of my sense of complacency
out of this sense that I had to be the lone wolf
who knew all the answers at once
and allowed me to realize that
my world is so much bigger than it
it can be so much bigger than it is
if I just realized that
I don't have to be the one who does everything
I don't have to come up with everything myself
I can leverage the wisdom and the works of others
and I can be of more service to other people in my life
if I do that
instead of trying to do absolutely everything myself
there is
there is a treasure trove of good stuff to dig into
and what you just what you just shared
and the notion that somehow or other we're supposed to
you know we're supposed to know yeah
um that's very
that's very that's very Hollywood hahaha
you know the happily ever after nonsense
yeah um
storybook Hollywood it's all
it's all it's all the same
the same vein but there is this notion
and this is another piece of
I think it's another piece of what gets us
in trouble as as men is the story about
you know being the authority
being the one who has the answers
being the you know the
the well
let's go let's go
let's go with authority and
and the answer guy always having an answer
and which takes questions off the table
which takes questions off the table
which takes curiosity off the table
which takes the idea of of
for many not for all
of course but for many of being willing to say
I don't know
you know hey
what about the Humana Humana hey I
I have no experience with the Humana Humana
I don't know yeah
you know see
it goes to the joke of you know why
why don't dudes ask for direction
cause they don't wanna admit that they're lost
that's right um hahaha
but in but in relationship
this notion that there's something shameful
uh shameful perhaps about uh
about being in
in some sort of struggle within a relationship
and I gotta say you know
as I look across the board at at
at at my own relationship
of course I'm including myself in this
but the the folks I know who have
you know the best relationships out there
you know the best
the best marriages the best long term relationships
friendships included is
is there's there's all there's
there's been a history of friction
you know not ongoing friction
not irreparable friction
um but if we really look at the relationship
you know there have been
times where it was far less than ideal
and then that presents a challenge
then okay how are we gonna get through this
you know how we gonna get through this
so you know
friction does amazing things
friction polishes stone friction polishes relationships
it's it's just kind of like the way it works and um
the the notion that we don't as
that as men that we don't talk about these things is
troublesome on a good day
deeply damaging on a not so good day
you know where do we go
and there's tons of statistics out there on
on on
you know
men in the epidemic of loneliness and deaths of despair
suicides etcetera
I mean there's tons of statistics out there
so hi
it's it's terrifying
yeah it is and
and it's and
and and
and again that's not to say that that that that uh
there aren't those problems with folks who aren't men
that there certainly are yeah
um
but you know what to say
but we're here to talk about men hahaha
yeah so
so so
so yeah you know
it's it's
it's wildly important to be able to
and statistics on men and friendship
you know a lot of men reporting that they don't
they don't they actually don't have a good friend
a single friend that they can be
you know
in conversation about the stuff that really matters
that is that is deeply problematic
and you know
it's interesting'cause part
of the
which which brings up this notion also that
that be anything in the world
but don't be vulnerable you know yeah
don't don't
don't show your cards yeah
well okay
well how does that math
you know how does that math even work if we're if
if if I if
if I'm lonely and I'm feeling alone um
but I'm told that to to be
to be vulnerable or showing my cards is a bad thing
but I actually want to connect about
about things that have any kind of um
any kind of depth or or true meaning to them then
you know that is gonna take some
uh you know
taking the armor off
that is gonna take some showing of the cards yeah um
and that takes courage
it takes a surprising amount of courage
takes a surprising yeah
it and
and the funny thing is it's
it's like like other things
you know after the first time you do it
it's like oh okay
that wasn't so bad you know
really it really was
no one's bleeding here right
you know I live to tell the tale oh
I could probably do this again hahaha
yeah so one of the things that that
and I'm so bad at it
which is why it's so heavy on my mind
but one of the things that really helps me with that is
it's like that story with my friend
I long for people to come to
me and be vulnerable
I long for my friend to reach out to me and say man
I'm really going through this thing
can you help me I desperately want that
but yet I don't wanna do that right
I don't want to go to my friend and
and burden him and that's not a burden
you are you are doing me a favor by coming to me
you are solidifying our connection
you are making me feel valued
you are giving me the opportunity
to give back to you
for everything that you've done for me
and yet I'm not willing to give that to my friend
it's it's crazy
it's absolutely crazy and we're all that way
yeah it's
it's that that there's a
the ha ha it's
it's the uh
distorted impact if you will
of the
of the notion that it's better to give than receive
and that's something I've talked about a lot in my
in in
in in the work that I've done with men over the years
as well and
and and it's fascinating because if okay
it is better to give than receive
now giving
if you do the math the
the the
the math equation doesn't quite work out'cause
if it's better to give than receive
and everybody's walking around
it's about better to give than receive
you know I can't
I can't accept your help right
but I'm always here for you if you need help
um yeah
the math just doesn't work out
because there's got to be someone to
receive the giving that you're doing
that's right yeah
that's right yeah and
and yeah
and there is something also that I think
I think it's really important to recognize
if you think about if you give
if you give someone a gift
mm hmm you know a material gift
the expectation is not that
they're gonna take it and hand it back
they're not gonna say oh no no no no no no
no no no
I can't possibly receive this
I can't I can't receive this from you on my birthday
because it is better to give than receive right
so so take it back
would you like some cake um
right exactly
oh no
no I couldn't possibly because
you know uh
you can see it I mean
it gets it and there
and there kind of goofy examples on the one hand
on the other hand there is a
to me anyway
you know there is a generosity
if you will a generosity of spirit
a generosity of
of uh
looking for the language for generosity of energy
generosity of spirit perhaps let's use that
there's a generosity of spirit in graciously receiving
whether you're receiving a material gift
or whether you're receiving uh
you know the
the the
the the helpful ear of
of a close friend yeah
you know and again it's
it's it's
you know there's there
there is this feedback loop
in relationship of giving receiving giving
receiving not score keeping
by the way yeah
not score keeping oh
you know have they received as much as I've given
or have I received as much as they
they've given that's crazy making
but you know there is this the
I think there is a deep generosity to receiving with um
with Grace
I feel like the a
a helpful metaphor there is like that of a flame right
it's like you have a candle and
and sharing that
that warmth and that heat with another person
or even
using your candle to light somebody else's candle
it doesn't take away from you
it it
it actually it adds to the value in the world
it adds to the warmth in the world
it adds it it
it it is additive
it is 1 + 1 equals three
yeah
no one complains about the guy who lit the campfire
that's right
that's right that's right
you know you mentioned loneliness and isolation and
and there is an epidemic of that
especially among men
especially in particular among young men
and yet we live in a world that's flooded with
with coaching content and advice for men
and Instagram and YouTube and
and influencers and all of this stuff
how do we how is how do you reconcile that
we probably have more information on
available than ever in the history of humankind
and yet we have this loneliness and isolation epidemic
how do we square that circle
yeah man
oh I wish I knew um
you know what what I can say about that is
you know the the
the social media is not is not
is not connection you know even
um that's a really powerful statement
and it it's not
that's not obvious
it's almost like saying potato chips aren't food
um it
it's kind of the same thing
it is it's
it's junk let's not insult the potato chip here
no I love a good potato chip
don't don't don't
don't get me wrong but
but if that's all you're eating
you're dead yeah yeah
yeah and
and by the way social media is kind of the same way
there there's a healthy use of social media right
and there's an unhealthy reliance on it
and so yeah
I I
I love that statement social media isn't connection
yeah social media is in connection
the other thing is and and
and no
and and we can't blame it all on social media
but there but there is a way that we have
you know bought into the
the the notion that
that equates with connection
like I'm getting my
my fix of connection via social media
or I'm even getting my fix of connection via text again
nothing wrong with those well
there's a lot wrong with social
social media from an algorithm
and what shows up in your feed etcetera
etcetera etcetera
um
you know social media if
we look at social media it
it it
let's face it it tends to be a performative space
that's right yeah
it's no yeah
it's me me me yeah
there's a lot of me me
me on there there's a lot of
you know
great vacation pictures and parties and things like
things like that if it's not stuff that's
you know deeply disturbing and dividing
there's a
there's more than enough of that on the one hand
on the other hand you know
again connection it's
it's easy and it's easy it's super easy
and it's super easy to get lost in those
in those spaces and I've been
I think I mentioned to you when we first spoke
um you know
I've been on a pretty much a social media free diet
since I started my sabbatical
back in back in uh
January of of 25
you know we're recording this on
in the on the beginning of October
but back to the question about the the
you know the
I think
I think back to the question about the loneliness piece
at at some point
it's really important to to first of all
take a look at once
I think take a look at oneself
which is which is a hard ask yeah
you know which is
which is a hard ask um
especially in a culture that's so values this that
that to tie it together
that man values that that myth of being self made
or being fiercely independent mm hmm
but it takes again
it takes an awful lot of courage to look and say wow
you know really I'm
I am in fact
a lonely guy
I I don't have
uh friends that
that I that I wanna have
so even just admitting that yeah
you know I think is a really important
admitting that to oneself
and also being willing to admit that no
actually I
I I
I want and I see the effect that I
that I uh
that I need relationship of some sort
you know I need some sort of
I need connections outside of myself
we're social creatures mm hmm
you know we are social creatures
and I think the acceptance of that is
I think the acceptance of that
is wildly is wildly important
you know at least opening the door
and we know that we know how important
I mean if you look at
even if we look at something um
as out there if you will
as uh
as as uh radicalization
you know the radicalization right
whether it's whether it
whether it's uh
radical on on either end of the political yeah
however it goes yeah
whatever you get radical
whatever by yeah
whatever way it goes you know
what do people find in those radicalized uh
echo chamber spaces they find connection
uh huh they find
they find connection to ideas
and oftentimes they find connection
connection to other people who share those
those ideas yeah
you know that's what why
why do why do gangs form
why do you know why
why do why do these things
why do these things happen
there are places where people go in
in uh
moments or seasons of desperation to find belonging
yeah
you know
what do we do as parents
to make sure that our kids don't catch this disease
what what do
what should dads do about this
what should moms do about this
I I
I I'm just sort of struck
you know one of the things that we can do is
obviously be a good role model
and that is one of the most difficult things here
because we've grown up in a different soup and
and we've grown up in a soup that fostered this myth
and we need to kill it
and it's very hard to kill it with an example
when you're not it's just the air you've been breathing
but there are
I'm sure there are other things we can do too
other than just try to model the appropriate behavior
what do you think about yeah
well you talk about being the example um
and that raises a really important question
um what am I being the example of
hmm
am I being an example of the authority
the authoritarian know it all um
father knows best uh
am I being am I being the walking
am I attempting to be the walking
talking example of that right
or am I being the example of um
hey you know
I think I might have some clues
but if I'm honest with you
I don't know Jack um
or am I being the example of
cause
I could also be an example of a completely clueless
whatever yeah
um or I could be the example of one who moves
about the world with um
and I'm gonna borrow from my own work here
you know this
this this integrated this
this integrated human being who we who uh
uh at least
has a recollection of what it was like to be a child
if we're talking about raising kids
do you have a recollection about uh
uh of what it
of what it was to be at that
particularly developmental age
you know one of
one of I
I have a story that I just
that I just absolutely love about
about um
one of my more brilliant uh
fathering moments hahaha
based on a lot of uh
you know it came to this
after running into an awful lot of angry walls
yeah and
and I remember this as clear as day
as clear as it was yesterday and um
my son was 4 years old my son was
was 4 years old
and he was doing the thing that four year olds do
which is you know
being kind of this crazy wild man
you know developmentally appropriate
absolutely developmentally appropriate
running around like a nut
yeah and uh
and I remember standing in my kitchen and
and he was running around like a nut
and I said Kai cause that's his name
I said Kai
and I and I look down at him and uh
and I and I just thought
I'm gonna try something different this time
cause everything else I've done doesn't work
and I just looked at him and I said Kai
you are acting like a four year old
he was 4 years old
and he looked at me and his eyes just got big
you know big blue eyes
eyes got big as saucers and he's just like daddy
I am a four year old right
and I was like
that you are carry on hahaha
because and this
and this is
and this is kind of the important piece'cause
what was happening over here
that had me lose my patience with a kid
doing absolutely developmentally appropriate things
I was unconsciously slipping into spoiled brat
the the
the world rotates about around me
I was I was devolving into my own distorted version
of a 44 year old at the time
44 year old 4 year old
yeah
and
you know just
and just that simple goofy act just for me anyway
it's just like open up the floodgates
oh okay
my job as a parent is to be able to
to meet him and if I can't yet do that
you know develop the capacity
to meet him at his developmental level
not expect him to be
uh you know uh
uh operating as the 44 year old or the 46 year old
as the 48 year old whatever he was gonna be four
he was gonna be six
he was gonna be eight and everything in between
and my job as a parent was to first
meet him at that level yeah
not devolve into it but have access and
and this again
this is part of the key to have access to
to that part of me that was and may remain forever
you know I had to
I had to learn to to
to access my inner child uh
in in a heartbeat when he was older
I had to be able to access my inner confused
you know tween
that's right 12
11 yeah 13
you know that crazy
that crazy period and and
and even more so as a as a
as a as a teen in that
in that experimental you know
indestructible phase
to be able to access those parts of myself to
to first of all be
be in conversation with them without coming off as
again the
the the
the the know it all authority on everything
because I don't know what it's like being him yeah
you know I knew what it was like being me
and also knew what it was like being me in a
in a in a house where I couldn't seem to close the gap
with my own with my
with my own folks yeah
I remember I so when my
when my boy was younger he's 6 now
but back when he was 4 um
it was so similar
and I would find myself flashing angry yeah
and it was that was an interesting situation for me
I am not by nature an angry person
I don't get particularly mad particularly quickly
I am measured and I usually take a step back
and I don't so I am
I don't have a lifetime of having experienced
flashing angry and dealing with it
but one of the things that that helped me with
so on the one hand that was a drawback
because I didn't have a lot of experience
dealing with it on the other hand
it also didn't feel normal to me
and so it shocked me into this
like this like
that's not right
and one of the things I realized is that
I was drawing a line from his current behavior
all the way until he was 25 years old
or 30 years old
trying to make his way in the world and realize like
he can't act this way when he's 30 yeah
but he's not 30 he's 4 yeah
and and so it's fine
and now but
so
there's a tension between him being able to be a kid
and also having the skills to operate in the world
and one of the things and
and I don't I doubt you
intended to do it this way
but one of the things you did when you
when you said you're behaving like a
like a 4 year old is
you made it clear that
that's acceptable behavior for a four year old
but not after he's four
and even unconscious
I don't think he thought about it
he didn't but he still would have gotten that message
and I think that's such a powerful way to do that
whether you whether you meant to do it that way or not
I think it's tremendously powerful
I think you're giving me way too much credit Sean
I think mostly the message to be
to be really honest
I think mostly the message was for me yeah
you know really was for me to
to to have the acceptance of him acting
cause of course he he
he he's gonna act a whole lot differently when he's
you know particularly at that
at that period of yeah
childhood because the changes happen
come so fast and furious
but but
but yeah I wish I I
I wish I could cop to being that wise
I don't think anybody's ever that wise in the moment
I think that but
but in retrospect there's wisdom uh
to that I
one of the things that my boy does um
which I'm trying to figure out how to deal with it is
he expects to be great at everything
and has a very low tolerance of not
being good at things yeah and
he was castigating himself on his way
I walk him to school most mornings
and he was castigating himself this morning
on his way to school
because he had forgotten this notebook that he bought
that has a combination on it
so it he can put his
his journal in it yeah and
and he was so angry that he'd forgotten it
and it's because he expects himself to be perfect
and I I try not to model that
but I suspect I do model it
I I
I suspect I model that exact same behavior myself
and my wife probably does it too
and we're and he's absorbing this
this stuff from us and
and he's catching that disease right
yeah and it's
and I so I
I sat him down and I said listen
nobody can remember everything
I can't remember everything
I said you have a number of things
you have eight things every day
that you have to do before you go to school
how do you make sure that you
remember all eight of those things
he says I have a checklist
I said exactly
you have a mechanism
that makes sure that you don't forget anything
if you didn't have that checklist
you'd forget things and
in fact the reason we put the checklist into place
is because you were forgetting things
and so that's a natural thing
it's expected I forget things
mom forgets things you forget
things it's totally natural
but we need to put mechanisms into place to make sure
and at that point he goes huh
maybe I need to add my notebook to that checklist
great yeah
let's do that and it'll be okay
we'll find the notebook don't worry about it buddy
and and he felt a
it still affected him a lot
as he was walking into school
I could tell that he was really upset with himself
but I don't know
I'm hoping that I'm sure he'll get over it and
and you know
he'll have a great day and it'll be fine
but uh
but it made me made me really reflect on
going back to this lone wolf thing
it made me really reflect on
what is he absorbing from the way that I'm behaving
and the way that I just
even unconsciously
act out behaviors that maybe aren't healthy
well there's
there's a lot in there Shawn again
there's a there's a
there's a lot in in what you're saying there and
and you know
perfectionism is a fascinating
it's a fascinating beast
um yeah
you know at
at times been there
done that you know
bought that T-shirt sure fit impeccably well
of course
you know there is something also about being
um first of all
it's it's
it's I think it's really important from a
this is my this is my
you know my
part of my theory anyway yeah
is that it's really important
to to kind of look at
at the whole system at at
at the environment at
at what he's taking in what
what any kid is is taking in
you know is it part of their
you know is it nature
is it nurture is it environmental
if if a kid is in school and they're getting
you know they're getting
they're getting marked on things like that
you know it does that is
is the is the message of the grading
for instance is it is
is that do they see that as a mandate uh
or or
or in some way shape or form
say our judgment of their being
you know oh
I got a I got a
I got an eighty
you know on something
or I got a I got a C
I got a what I got an a and I got an A
I'm all that and a bag of chips
or I got right
I got a B minus or a C or whatever
you know however they do it and
you know um
I got a red
I got a bunch of red marks on my spelling test
uh does that
are they equating that with uh
having spelled things the wrong way
or are they equating that with I'm an idiot
yes and and
and you know
obviously there's a long way between those two things
but but it's a really it's
it's I think it's really important to
to have questions
uh about that and
and and to be curious about
about how they're you know
how they're taking that again
you know what is the education
uh
what is our form of education
uh promote it
it it
it it's
it is it is often times about performance yeah
it is not necessarily about
you know this happens later
I think in later education
you know
that's when we're I think
at a developmental stage
where we can see our education as learning to learn
but I think in early on
in many cases unless
unless it's being taught in exceptional ways
that I don't really know or understand
but unless they're being taught in exceptional ways
that they are learning to learn
that they're involved in a process
versus being prepped for a performance yeah
you know it's it's
it's it's a whole different
it's a whole different animal
and back to your point of
in terms of modeling yeah
I think it's really important to that that that
that our kids are able to see that
we don't have it all together
you know the love part we got yeah
you know I
I I
I know I will love you without condition for sure
you know you are welcome to make mistakes in here
this is a great place to to mess up
and we do we as adults do it all the time we just
we just do it a slightly higher level
that's right um
but yeah I think
I think it's important to recognize when
it's important to recognize when
you know
are they seeing the authority figures in their lives
are they seeing them you know
how can you carry your you know
I'll put this another way
cause I can see I'm kind of drifting here
but I'll put it another way
I think it's wildly important as parents to
to hold one's
authority as a parent if you will
and loving guide as a parent
not authority over but authority that comes from having
you know decades more of life experience
that carries authority with them
that's right that carries authority
that carries some weight on the one hand
but also carry one's cluelessness and one's fallability
you know at the same level
oh silly me
you know and there's a big difference between oh
silly me and oh my god I can't believe I did that
I'm such an idiot that there
those are really really different things
so you know
when so I think it is important to look at okay
when I mess up how does
how does my kids see me responding or react
are they seeing me respond to things I get wrong
are they seeing me go into deep
some sort of deep hole of reaction
um where I get triggered cause I mess up right
it's like how much permission do you have
that gives them permission to
to to fail
to fail forward if you will
yeah and
I can imagine
you know
your own harmful self talk is another modeling thing
I mean you know
oh I'm such an idiot
why did I do that thing I mean
you know that
that's basically
teaching your kid to do that same thing
and and
and that's not
you would nobody should be calling your kid an idiot
not even them right
certainly not you and
you know
if you're not gonna willing to be nice to yourself
and they're not willing to be nice to themselves
why why would the rest of the world right
yeah permission to fail and fail with Grace and yeah
and um
and screw it up royally
and then come back and do it all over again yeah
and there's a real virtuous cycle to that because
you know when
when you're appropriately modeling the right behavior
and you're doing that work
and you are in going back to the
to the to the topic at hand
you're modeling reaching out and creating connections
and asking for help
and gathering all the resources that at
at your disposal and all of that
the kids inherit those healthier scripts
and those healthier habits
and those healthier patterns
and then they succeed more
which causes you to do more of that model more of that
and you're succeeding more
and which makes them succeed more
and it's this virtuous cycle
and the opposite is a vicious cycle
the opposite is more isolation and more struggle
and then which leads to more isolation and all of that
Nick and you keep going down
and those are really the two options
you can either have the positive feedback loop
which is a good thing
or you can have the negative feedback loop
which is the bad thing
it's interesting the way you said it
you know they see it and they
and they respond positively
you know uh
unless they don't yeah
unless they don't unless they don't
you know and and and
and and that
and I think that speaks to another piece
and that is
you know what
what are my expectations
and how realistic are my expectations
and are and are my expectations age appropriate
yeah you know
or or
or developmentally appropriate do I
do I give myself permission
do I give myself permission to screw up publicly
you know yeah
in front in front
in front of my family when I'm trying something new
do my kids get to see me try new things
do they get to see me uh
try and fail do they see me get to
you know wander through the
the wilderness of um
mediocrity
if I'm learning something new to get to semi competent
to get to meh
to get to oh yeah
now now
now I can kind of do this well
and still screw up every now and then
to finally
getting to the point where I'm doing something
something really well you know
are they are are
are they gonna have a memory of that
of that of that journey
yeah that's yeah
and in an impression of the journey right
there's an impression of the things
and then there's the overall
uh impression of what they experience
um
give me a sense of some of some actual
some tactical things that
that men should do if they feel isolated or
you know how do
how do we retrain ourselves
to get away from this lone wolf myth
what should we do I'm sitting here
I'm in I'm in my room
I'm all alone I'm wallowing
I'm feeling disconnected what are some tactical real
like like practical things that I can do to
to start the snowball going
yeah there's a
there's a few things that come immediately to mind
you know one of
one of them is if if
you know if you've got friends that you
that you haven't spoken to in a while hmm
um
and you're feeling the urge
is to go ahead and reach out
you know don't yeah
don't wait for them to reach out
go ahead and reach out worst
yeah thing
worst that's gonna happen is nothing
that's right yeah
yeah so that's one place to start
and you know
maybe if if you
if you wanna have a conversation about my
my one of my friends and mentors
um
Rick Rick Tamlin uh
used to have this thing I think he still
still probably says it
how are you you know
or how are you really yeah yeah
you know to be able to have the
you know how you doing
I'm fine how are you
OK now
how are you really
and and a willingness to
and a willingness to go to go there first
well here's how things are really going
mm hmm you know um
and either it'll be picked up or it won't be picked up
and maybe there's a little bit of a conversation
but hey you know what um
I don't need you to fix me here
I'm not looking for advice
but here's how I'm doing really yeah
you know um
so the other guys can feel like
oh my God you know um
I love this distinction between the how are you
and the how are you really
because they actually it
and a lot of the times when people talk about that
it's almost like oh no no
like the the original how are you is
is a throwaway it's not useful
but the how are you really
that's real connection and that's true
but they actually both share they
they they both have a purpose right
and sometimes like in our culture
and in our culture we almost use how are you as
as a handshake as a right
we're going to we're very optimistic culture
and we want
it's almost like we want to reinforce this collection
collective illusion that everything is great
so when I see you on the sidewalk and I say
hey Ken
how's it going what I expect from you
the dance your part of the handshake is to say
I'm doing great how are you
and I say I'm doing great too
whether or not it's true
you're right
and that part of that is just like life is good and
and it and you know
we're always striving for the best
and I discovered this one time
I was going through a particularly
tough time in my life and people were asking me how
how are you doing I'm going
you know I'm alright
and I was I was
answering that question in this kind of morose way
where I was conveying
I'm not good at all and I
I really could use some help
and I didn't get it from anybody
and in fact what I got was kind of this
all right um okay
have a good day yeah
yeah like real arms length thing and
and it's because we weren't doing the handshake
we weren't dancing we weren't like
I was stepping on the other person's toes
kind of in the dance
right and what I realized is what they needed from me
was just to be I'm doing fantastic
how are you and in fact
that became my reflex I'm just
I just by default answer that question
I'm doing fantastic
and that has this drawback of oftentimes
I'm not doing fantastic and
so if you're asking me the other question
if you're asking me the how are you really
I still have that reflex and that's not healthy
the first thing is healthy
the second thing is not healthy
and so may by making that distinction between the
how are you and the how are you really
both on the giving end and on the receiving end
it turns that it turns it into a different dance
and it's a really really
really powerful thing and you can
you can stay in the dance
you can stay in the oh
let's have this collective delusion
that everything's wonderful
or you can get into the other thing
which is actually about creating connection right
right and
and so so
so you're absolutely right
I think there is something about about
about meeting
cause yeah
there has to be buying for the how are you really
conversation so how you doing
I'm doing great how about you
oh I'm doing great
okay now that that's out of the way
yeah and now how are we really doing
now how are you doing really yeah
yeah yeah yeah
so it's like get the get the handshake
I love that get the handshake out
get the handshake done yeah
and then let's lie to each other
and now we can tell the truth
that's right
yeah I love that
I I
it's yeah
that's a really powerful distinction
it's fascinating yeah
here's here's our contract we're
gonna lie to each other
then we'll then we can get down and it
and it's the other thing is
you know
that's gotta be with folks you consider trusted agents
you know
absolutely has to be with someone you considered a
you consider a trusted agent yeah
um and be willing to have that
you know those those those conversation again
it's a it's a vulnerable thing to do
the other place I would point
and this is this is similar to a question
I used to ask in my own podcast
you know where would you point a guy to start out
and uh I'm gonna give an answer that I heard probably
you know 90% of the time
which was find a men's group
you know find a men's group
they are everywhere whether they are
you know church based or they're associated with
a big organization like Mankind Project
every man you know
they're they're they're all and they're everywhere yeah
you know
they are they're everywhere but you gotta look for them
yeah they're everywhere
but you gotta look for them and
and understand that that first time you walk into to
to a circle of men it's gonna be weird
unless it isn't
it's gonna be weird unless it isn't
and take it easy on yourself
you know go in and kind of feel it out
and find one that works for you
but be in conversation it's a it's a it's an easy
way to start being in conversation with uh
not only uh
other other
other men one on one but uh
other men communities of men who are
you know who are serious about
about taking care of themselves
and being in the deeper conversations
talking about stuff that really matters
that's where I would point
that's where I would point someone
I think that's a really powerful suggestion to
to and
and you've had two of them
you've had two really powerful suggestions and
and the first one was
go ahead and reach out to someone
you haven't reached out to in a while
and then
and then the second one was find a men's group and you
and there are lots of ways to search for them and
you know
we used to have institutions in our culture that
made these things happen naturally
we had churches we had in office work
we had sports leagues um
which I mean those
that last thing still exists maybe um
but those institutions are dissolving and they're not
for thousands of years
they've created that structure by which men
could get mutual support
and now we have to find it ourselves
and the tools are out there
to get it we have the internet
we have social media
those are good uses of those things
to find these sorts of groups and to interact with
with men it used to be the case that you
you know you were
you were dealing with something
and you had to wait
until your weekly meeting of the church group
but now you can just hop on Reddit and type it out
into your supportive subreddit of
of men and you'll get that kind of support
and that kind of feedback
if you if you're in the right place
if you're in the right place
there's a lot of I would
I would
I would approach some of the online men's groups
with a little bit of caution again because absolutely
yeah cause I've seen some pretty
yeah I think
I think the online portal to a physical men's group
yeah is probably a good place to be
and an online men's group
is maybe not as good of a place yeah
unless it's unless it's curated and
you know carefully curated yeah
yeah and yeah
I'm with you there yeah
I'm with you there yeah
there's nothing nothing beats in person face to face
you know
if we if we
if we
if we all didn't learn that lesson during the pandemic
then uh
then goodness this is a good time to learn it
it really is and I think the pandemic did two things
uh it taught us about the importance of that
but it also killed it off
a lot of the groups have just died
as a result of the pandemic
and we're gonna have to build it back yeah
yeah and they're
and they're out there yeah
yeah they
really are there's a lot of them well
I like to
I like to close these conversations up by asking
for one principle
what is one principle that you would want to share
that is
could be something that you aspire to in your own life
or it could be something that um
that it's just really been a solid principle
that you live by
and I know I'm putting you on the spot because I didn't
I didn't warn you
that I was gonna be asking you for this
but that's part of the magic of it
I'm interested to find out what bubbles up
in this heated moment what
what if there's one principle that you'd like to share
what would it be yeah
oh wow
just one hahaha
and you know what it
feel free to share more than one if you like
well no
I I think the one that speaks to me the
the I think the one that speaks to me the loudest
is one that I've that I've
that I've mentioned already
and that is um
you know
uh uh
allow yourself to develop or redevelop
I mean we all have
we all had it as children
we all had it as children
um the
the I'm gonna say the
the discipline to move through the world with wild
curiosity
I love that that is so powerful
have the discipline to move through the world
with wild curiosity that is a fantastic principle
thank you for that Ken
yeah thanks John
thanks for well Ken
it has been an absolute pleasure
having this conversation with you
I hope uh
to have you back in the future and we can have many
many more conversations
thanks again for taking the time and uh
and let's let's keep in touch
yeah thanks John
it has been an absolute delight
thanks so much for having me my pleasure