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A faith-forward podcast for people who love Jesus but also love being honest about how weird and wonderful life can be. Hosts Kerrye and Jill tell stories about the Bible, talk about their faith, and dig into what it looks like to follow God through the ordinary chaos of everyday, imperfect life. Real conversations. Real stories. No pretending to have it all together. Pull up a chair, turn the page, and let's go.
Welcome to Chapter and Verse, where people
tell real stories about faith, failure,
redemption, and those "Lord, I'm gonna
need you to explain this one" moments.
Some stories are inspiring, some
are messy, some are miraculous,
and some probably should have
come with a warning label.
But through every chapter of
every story, God has a plan.
And he's never been
afraid of a little chaos.
We're Jill.
And Kerrye.
Let's turn the page
Well, we're here with my good
friends, Thomas and Beth Hale.
Beth probably won't say anything,
but she's here, just so you know.
And- She's in the room.
Yes.
Thomas was my youth pastor when I was
growing up n- and probably have no stories
to tell about me because I was very quiet.
Yes you were.
Yeah.
My brother you might have a couple
stories on, but I know of some stories
that he, that he did on youth trips and
stuff, but I don't know that you knew.
I probably don't know-
Yeah ⦠and I don't want to know.
It's long time ago.
I was too little.
But we, I'm so excited to have you here.
Um, you've really impacted my
life, so I'm glad that you're here.
And you are an amazing young woman.
Well, thank you.
We love you.
I love you too.
We are pretty partial to Kerrye.
Okay.
So Thomas, what, what are you
gonna talk to us about today?
I write books at this season of my life
and it's what I call my legacy season.
Life is about seasons.
Mm-hmm.
And when you get, oh, around 60 or
so,- I believe every person should give
the last 20% of their lives to legacy.
Oh, that's really good.
Yeah.
What you do in the world is important.
What you leave to the
world is more important.
Yeah.
And so I'm focusing this season of my
life, the last 20% of my life, to legacy.
And,, I'm writing books and I've al- I've
always been what, uh, they call an early
adapter, early adopter with technology.
Mm-hmm.
I had the first computer, an old IBM 8088.
That is like complete Greek.
I do remember that about you.
I remember IBM but I don't
remember any of the other things.
Yeah, in 1981.
Yeah.
'82, along in there.
Wow.
And so as, and I just
grew with the technology.
Mm-hmm.
And it has become a major part of my
life throughout all of my life actually.
My lifetime mentor is Ron Cottle, Dr.
Ron Cottle.
Yes.
And Dr.
Cottle is a great scholar, and, uh, I
can do in, oh my goodness, I can do in
just a few hours what his generation
took days- Mm-hmm ⦠to discover-
Yeah ⦠by reading the books.
My favorite commentary
is a guy called R.C.H.
Lenski.
He's a good, a good old Lutheran
theologian from the 1930s and '40s,
and, uh, he's absolutely amazing.
Dr.
Cottle likes to say that Lenski knows
more Greek than Socrates, and that's
probably true when you read the guy.
But I can reference him, and Copilot
can just dig it out of there.
It just, it absolutely blows my mind.
Mm-hmm.
So anyway, so I put together the
books, and this one's called, uh,
"Why Your Prayers Aren't Working."
And, you know, in the church we
practice prayer, but I'd say it's
probably one of the most misunderstood
things of the Christian life.
Mm-hmm.
And but, but we teach it.
We call for prayer meetings, but
yet people are offering sincere
prayers with real emotion, genuine
desire, and lots of times deep need.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
But those are still often
incomplete, unanswered.
Uh-
The results seem delayed or inconsistent
or in some cases absent altogether.
Yeah.
And so I raise the question that a lot of
people don't ask, why do so many prayers
seem to be powerless and unanswered?
Yeah.
That's a great question.
So prayer, I think, as a definition
is simply communication with God.
Yeah.
It, it means, um Here it comes.
The word in, in the
original is prosuchomai.
Prosuchomai.
Pro means toward, suchomai
means the desires, the wishes,
the intention that I have.
So prayer is simply giving forth
what I desire, what's in my heart
that I would want God to do for me.
Yeah.
I oftentimes ask people in a, in a
prayer line, and we are privileged
to pray with people, and many times
when they come forward in an altar,
you know, and they te- and I was
taught this as a young man, ask them
what they want God to do for them.
Mm-hmm.
That's prayer.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
What do you want God to do for you?
And so in that sense, it's,
it's, it's talking to God.
When it's not even a question
of whether or not prayer works
in the sense that does God hear?
He hears.
Mm-hmm.
Or whether his word is true,
because his word is true.
Yes.
Right.
Jesus said this, the words,
they, they're, they're the truth.
They are true.
Or whether prayer matters.
Of course it matters.
The deeper concern is I want to
understand prayer according to the
framework that the word of God gives.
That's what's misunderstood is
the framework or where prayer
exists or where prayer is made.
So I start with this hard question,
why do so many prayers not work?
Yeah.
And so I try to give some
good biblical answers.
And so my first one, and you can
jump in at any time or- Okay.
Yeah ⦠whatever here.
Don't let me, uh- No, we wanna
hear it ⦠dominate y'all.
Yeah.
This is exactly what we do.
Yeah.
Um, if we are toâ¦
Like when, when I was young, no
one ever told me why we pray.
I was always just told to pray.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Or that we have Saturday night prayer
meeting every Saturday night, and I'm
telling you, we get in there, I go off in
the corner somewhere, laying down in the
corner in a room or something, whatever.
I'd pray everything I
could possibly think of.
And I mean- ⦠and then I look at
my watch and it's like 10 minutes.
Yeah.
And this is supposed to be
an hour-long prayer meeting.
Yeah.
And I'm like, "Ah."
What, what, what is this about?
I- I've been there.
Yep.
I think we all have.
Yeah.
And nobody knew, nobody ever explained
to me why we would pray, what the
necessity of prayer was, why prayer can
work, and nobody, certainly nobody ever
talked about why prayer doesn't work.
Yeah.
But here's the basis, and,
and this is my first thing
There are two kingdoms in conflict.
Mm.
And if you don't understand that,
then you don't know why we pray
or why prayer is necessary, why
it works or why it doesn't work.
'Cause spiritual warfare is
the background of all prayer.
It's the unseen environment in which every
prayer is answered or unanswered- Hm.
Yeah ⦠in that setting.
Yeah.
So, in, in Genesis, and you, you
all know this, in the beginning
God created the heavens.
It's, it's, it's plural.
Mm-hmm.
And it signals that there
are realms in the heavens.
Okay?
Right.
Yeah.
That, that's what we can draw from that.
Now Paul, and I'll jump ahead
for a moment, Paul says he was
called up to the third heaven.
Remember that?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I'll give you that exact
verse here in a second.
Um, yeah, Corinthians, 2 Corinthians 12:2,
Paul's called up into the third heaven.
Okay.
The word is tritos, third.
It's a derivative.
A derivative means it's
derived from something.
So third is derived from second.
Yeah.
Follow me?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so this is not just
allegory or illustration.
Right.
There are three of them.
Okay.
Right.
And that's pretty solid theologically.
Not everybody believes that.
Yeah.
But I take that literal, that,
that there- I think it's time to
start taking the Bible literally.
Yep.
We talked about it ⦠three heavens.
Three heavens.
Well, the first heaven, of course, is
the visible- Mm-hmm ⦠where we live.
Right.
The sky, the earth,
everybody that dwells in it.
Mm-hmm.
Sun, moon, stars, everything that I
see and experience with my five senses.
Mm-hmm.
The natural world.
So this is where we live.
Now, surrounding us is this second heaven.
The scripture uses the word ouranos for
that, and that c- that just simply means
heavens Yeah Okay?
It's unseen.
I cannot experience it with my natural
senses, but yet it enfolds all of
the first heaven in which I live.
Okay.
I'm surrounded by that- Yeah ⦠realm.
Yeah.
You've been in services where people
say there are angels in the room.
Well, that's no joke.
Yeah.
There are.
Right.
I'll tell you something else, too.
There are demons in the room, too.
That's true.
You know?
Yep.
Yeah.
If there's a demon at the Last Supper
and it entered into Judas- Yep.
Yeah ⦠I can guarantee you
there's some demons sitting
in your church services, too.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, they are.
So, but you can't see that.
So it's, it's where
spiritual realities operate.
Right.
Okay?
So it overlays the physical realm
all around us, and this is the
domain of two kingdoms, God's
kingdom and the kingdom of darkness.
Okay.
And the scripture is
very clear about that.
You either a son of God or
a daughter of God- Mm-hmm
or are you a child of the devil?
Mm-hmm.
Right.
I mean, that's what Paul defines it as.
So this domain of angels and demons, it's
a battleground where there is a hierarchy
of authority and structure, and there
are words that, that show that as well.
Right.
So just as we inhabit the first
heaven, the principalities, this
is Paul's word, principalities
and rulers of darkness, they claim
the second heaven as their domain.
That's where they operate.
And, and in America, we
don't recognize that.
We don't think about that.
But if I were to say to you, "Hey, I
wanted to come over to and see you today,
but Satan hindered me and I couldn't make
it," you'd probably think I was crazy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's exactly what Paul said
to the Thessalonians church.
And you get all these incredible examples.
I mean, in 2 Corinthians 4:4,
demons have the ability to
blind the mind of an unbeliever.
Yeah.
And catch this.
Here's what Jesus said in the
master parable of the Kingdom of
God, the parable of the sower.
As soon as that seed hits someone, the
birds, which represent demons- Mm-hmm
immediately come and
try to snatch it away.
And they do that, it's
revealed in 2 Corinthians 4:4.
We, I won't teach it here.
But it's revealed there because
the demons have the ability to
influence what is called the noema,
w- the conclusions of your mind.
It's not justâ¦
It, it, itâ¦
They, they can influence what you think.
Mm-hmm.
And they will talk you out of it
They have that ability, and that's
where they-- That's the source of these
endless thoughts that sometime hit
every one of us, and it's like they
come like flooding in on you, and you're
thinking this and, "Oh, what about that?
What aboutâ¦
Did you hear what that person said?"
Mm-hmm.
All this stuff floods.
That's noima.
Yeah.
And that is demonically energized.
Mm-hmm.
That's what they do.
And so th- Paul will simply use, or
maybe it's Peter, uses the phrase, "The
demons," it's Paul, "The demons teach."
That's fascinating.
Anyway.
Okay, then so there's a first heaven,
second heaven, and then there's a third
heaven, which it's the throne room of God.
So there's all this warfare that
goes on in the second heaven between
the kingdom of darkness and the
kingdom of light, but in the third
heaven, that's where the throne is.
Okay.
And so when Jesus was
resurrected, guess where he went?
Third.
Yeah.
He's enthroned beside the Father.
Right.
He's in the third heaven.
Now, there's no battlefield there.
Mm-mm.
That's, that's the domain.
So Christ is seated, and the Word
of God says, "Far above everyâ¦"
Now he's gonna describe the demonic
kingdom: principalities, powers,
dominions and names, and we'll
maybe get to that in a moment.
So there's no battlefield there.
It's a place where the finished
work of Christ stands as final And
many people don't understand that.
Jesus sat down after he offered
himself on the cross, and when
you sit down, it's a position of
authority that signifies finality.
Yeah.
I'm saved, I'm healed,
I'm delivered, I'm free.
Sin has no dominion over my life.
Completely settled.
Yeah.
See, and we'll maybe get to this in a,
a minute, but one of the primary reasons
prayer doesn't work is people don't
know that, and so they're asking God for
something that he's already done for them.
Mm-hmm.
And those prayers don't work.
Yeah.
If you're asking God to give you
victory over sin, you're asking amiss
because he's already done it for you.
Sin shall not have dominion
over you, Romans 6.
It's already done.
Mm-hmm.
If you're atâ¦
Check this.
If you're asking God to
heal you, you're amiss.
Yeah.
He healed you 2,000 years ago.
Yeah.
Peter will shift into this
phrase in 1 Peter 2:24, "By
his stripes you were healed."
Yeah.
In the original, that is, it's,
first of all, it's in the aorist,
uh, the, and so that tense, and
that means that is complete.
Right.
That is absolutely complete.
Right.
It's not pending.
It's not going to continue.
It was done.
It's done.
Yeah.
But it's also in past tense, which
means it was done back there.
I was healed 2,000 years ago.
Yeah.
So I don't a- so I don't
ask God to heal me.
I enforce healing.
Yeah.
And we'll get to this in a minute.
So anyway, uh, there's, so there's three
heavens, and so there's war up there.
In fact, the whole book of
Revelation is really a picture
of the ouranos, the heavens.
You remember what happened, John?
He's called up into the ouranos,
and he sees all this stuff.
And then Romans 12, it says, "War
broke out, broke out in heaven."
I don't understand all this, but
when I was a kid, a guy wrote a
book called This Present Darkness,
a guy named Frank Peretti.
Mm-hmm.
And I could never forget it.
We enjoy it.
Or whatever.
Yeah.
And then, uh- It's a favorite.
Yeah.
And so the, it, you know, it outlays
all these, like, warfare battles- Yeah
⦠between the demons and angels stuff.
It's the most fascinating thing.
I, I think that when we get to
heaven someday, we're gonna be
absolutely amazed at what was
happening in the heavenlies- Yeah
all around us that we did not see.
Mm-hmm.
You know, both good and bad- Yeah.
Right ⦠that's there.
And so, uh, there's war up there, and
every prayer is released into that domain.
That's where they go.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Every prayer is resisted in that domain.
See, a lot of people don't understand
that sometimes delay is not a no.
Right.
It's demonic resistance.
Yeah.
And this stuff is as real, the, the- Yeah
⦠man, the New Testament, let me see if Iâ¦
Where is that?
Okay, uh, um,
we'll get to it.
So war breaks out, and Paul
describes it in Ephesians 6:12.
Th- here's, he says, okay, number
one, I mean, listen to what this says.
"We do not wrestle
against flesh and blood."
Wrestle, the New Testament
word is pele, pa- pale, pale.
And, and so anyway, I don't
guarantee, by the way, just for the
record, I don't guarantee perfect
pronunciation of all the Greek terms.
It's okay.
But I do guarantee correct spelling.
'Cause I know how to find that.
Yeah.
And so I really work on the,
on the pronunciation, but,
you know, there's, who knows?
I will not guarantee
that in the transcript.
Just so you know.
Thank you.
But pale is wrestling.
That's close contact That's like
sweating- Yeah ⦠grappling all.
That's the image.
And he says, "We're wrestling
not against what we see."
And this flesh and blood is just a, a
beautiful analogy for the natural world.
Mm-hmm.
It's, I mean, people.
It's, it's us.
So we're not wrestling against those.
We're wrestling against what
he calls principalities.
See, listen to the structure.
Principalities, powers,
rulers of darkness.
What?
There are rulers up there?
There are authorities up there?
There are delegations of us- Is that
like principalities is the top, then the
next one is- Yeah, that kind of stuff
like is it the lowest?
Does it go from principalities
is the most and then- Well,
no, I don't- Is that in order?
The, the commentators don't really
see necessarily a hierarchy here
that you start at the top and go
down, but they do see the structure.
Yeah.
So like for instance, really if you
were, if I were to say which one's
probably the top, it's probably the
last one, spiritual host of wickedness
in the, in the, in the heavenly places.
Oh, yeah.
The word is cosmocrator.
Like the cosmos and the
crator, the ruler of things.
Yeah.
Hmm.
You know, we get a picture of
this in the Book of Daniel.
Yeah.
And so w- and, and we'll
get to that in a moment.
And so, uh, we wrestle against that.
Uh, the w- principalities,
the word is arche.
Now that does, that does mean
chief rulers, first, first in rank.
Mm-hmm.
And so there are rank and file in
the kingdom- Yeah ⦠and rank and
file, of course, in the kingdom
of darkness, which emulates that.
All right, so there's warfare
up there, and all our prayers
are released into there.
Paul calls it, and here's a few examples.
Paul calls Satan the prince of the
power of the air in Ephesians 2:2.
So the kingdom of darkness has
structure, rank, strategies, and
assigned spheres of operation.
They're out there.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, they're,
they're always around us.
And the air, of course, is
simply a word that again expli-
explains kind of the ouranos.
It's the unseen atmosphere in which
kingdom warfare is taking place.
And there's two conflicts in king- there
are two kingdoms in conflict up there
all the time Now Jesus, when he was
exalted, it says he was exalted far above.
So he's over it.
It's all been vanquished,
all been legallyâ¦
Everything God does is legal.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
He was legally defeated at the cross.
Right.
Anywhere that he operates, it's illegal.
But the, if the church does not enforceâ¦
Look, we're not a conquering
army, we're an occupying army.
We occupy this place.
Yeah.
We have to enforce the victory.
And if we don't enforce
the victory, guess what?
It remains unenforced, and
the kingdom of God, kingdom of
darkness will operate everywhere
we fail to enforce it illegally.
This makes me really sad.
That's- But I've been praying,
like, you know, like you said,
it, the things that we canâ¦
That's already been accomplished, we
can command because it's already ours.
Yeah.
But like the other things,
what do you pray for then?
If you have healing and you have victory,
you just pray for lost souls and like-
No, everything has to be enforced.
So basically everything, uh, as long
as it lines up with the word- Yes.
Yes ⦠we have.
Yes.
Wow, what a lot of
wasted hours I've spent.
So we're just commanding our
troops- Yes ⦠and essentially,
um, I, I don't know the word for
like disabling the enemy's troops.
Yeah.
That's a great word.
Yeah.
The, yeah, the New Testament word
is luo, which means to loose it.
Yeah.
Remember what Jesus said, "Whatever you
bind-" Right â¦" that means to forbid,
and whatever you loose, permit- Right
â¦" on Earth- Mm-hmm, as it is in heaven
⦠will be permitted- Yeah ⦠up there.
And I tell you, a great translation
of the verse is, is that while you
are binding and loosing, you will
discover that in the heavens it
has already been bound and loosed.
Mm-hmm.
Because all we do is move in accordance
as a son of God in the Earth with
the will of God in the Earth.
Yeah.
And that's the great strength of prayer.
The prayers that work are those that
are in alignment with the will of God.
In other words, and I believe this,
I believe that healing is in the
atonement, so healing is the will of God.
I have to enforce healing.
I have to command it.
Mm-hmm.
I have a whole nother book, uh,
called The, The Voice of Command.
And again, this is the, the language
and this, I'm so-- This is just
where I was so privileged to be
trained in this manner by Dr.
Cottle to think, you know, along the
lines of what does the new, what does the
original, what does the Greek Testament,
New Testament really say about things?
Because the King James is a translation.
Right.
And there's not a single English word
that we have that can accurately tran- One
single word cannot accurately translate
what's all there in those Greek words.
Mm-hmm.
The Greek is the most fascinating
language, and there's a, a marvelous
reason that it's in that language.
It's the most crazy thing in the world.
It can tell you all sorts of things,
nuances about, you know, it doesn't
just tell you that something's here.
It can tell you if it comes down from
the top, if it comes up from the bottom,
if it starts over here and goes through-
Mm-hmm ⦠or if it's inside or if it's
outside, if it's above, it's under.
It can tell you whether or not
it's complete or it's not complete.
It can tell you whether it was
done in the past and it continues
forward into the present.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
All sorts of things.
So it's the most fascinating
language in the world.
So that's what I try to do, is
to get at those, those words so
that we have an understanding.
And, uh, so anyway, moving
right along 'cause w- we'll
never get done if we don't.
Uh, there's two kingdoms in conflict
and, and I'll hit this in real, uh,
quickly because, uh, most people are
familiar with Daniel prays, right?
He prays two prayers 'cause he realizes
that the 70 years of captivity are up,
and so he starts praying to that end,
starts decreeing and starts declaring it.
He's, he's binding and loosing
in a sense in the spirit.
And, uh, the first prayer, the,
the answer comes immediately.
I mean, like in two minutes.
It's like a two-minute prayer.
Boom, he turns around, here's the answer.
There's the, there's the angel dude.
And the next one, it goes 21
days with no, uh, he's nothing.
21 days.
Yeah.
And, and so what's happening
is the Babylon, the kingdom of
Babylon is gonna fall, and the
Persians are gonna take over, okay?
Yeah.
So, so that's the, that's
what's happening in the ouranos.
Yeah.
Okay?
Okay.
Now, what's happening with Daniel is all
he knows is 70 years are up, and it's
time for us to get out of captivity,
and he's praying along that way.
And then the, the angel saysâ¦
Let me see if Iâ¦
He says something like,
he says, "Well, look."
Yeah, he says, "Look here."
He says, "From the moment you prayed, I
was dispatched and, and I got the answer.
But I was delayed by-"
This Prince of Persia thing.
Oh, the prince of the kingdom
of Persia withstood me 21 days.
You go fi- can't figure that out.
Hmm.
I don't get that.
Yeah.
But that's what happened.
So the delay happened becau- a
hot- because a hostile spiritual
ruler resisted the answer's
manifestation in the unseen realm.
Go figure.
And then the guy says, the
messenger says, "Oh, I'm going back.
I must return to fight
with the Prince of Persia."
So he wasn't done.
Yeah.
He was just taking a sabbatical-
Yeah ⦠to let Daniel know like-
Yeah ⦠"Hey, we're working on it."
And then, and then he got through
the first time, you know, after
the 21 days, 'cause he said he had
to call Michael the archangel, you
know, the, the, the real- Mm-hmm
whoop, whoop your tail guy.
Number one chief, chief archon angel.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Has to come down and, and plow away,
and then he says, "No one upholds me
against these except Michael your prince."
Wow.
So there's something going on.
And then in the-- Some more examples
of, of what happens here, um, when Jesus
comes, and people don't recognize this.
See, we don't understand
the kingdom of God.
I mean, the first thing that Jesus
says, "Kingdom of God's come near you."
It's here.
When he shows up, the kingdom is here.
He tells the disciples when they go
out, when he commissions them to go
out, "You go out there and tell them
the kingdom of God has come to you."
Jesus is the kingdom of God
coming into the earth to
confront the kingdom of darkness.
If you, you have to see that as the
entire background of everything that
Jesus did- Right ⦠was the kingdom
of God is confronting and destroying.
Remember what Jesus said, "If you
can't take the, the goods of the,
the household, the guy who's got
the goods, you can't take his stuff
unless you bind the one that rules."
Yeah.
That's what Jesus did.
So Acts 10:38 sums it up, how
God anointed Jesus of Nazareth
with the Holy Ghost and fire.
Holy Ghost and with power who
went about doing good and healing
all that were, I mean, check
it out, oppressed by the devil.
Yeah.
That's what it says.
Mm-hmm.
The word pressed, oppressed,
I'll, I'll go for this.
Kataduneo steo.
That's, that's close.
It means those who are
burdened, dominated, harassed.
See kata, K-A-T-A, is the
first part of that word.
That's the one that shows us
something comes down from the top.
If it's kata, it's pressing down.
So it's a burden, it's a weight, it's an
harassment, it's a domination that presses
down, and Jesus came to destroy that.
That's good.
Yeah That's what it says.
Yeah.
So Jesus confronts, all right?
And listen, just be- and
then Jesus ascends, right?
But it's not over 'cause
we're, we're an occupying army.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
The, the battle is still on.
Yeah.
And, and Peter says that,
"Be sober, be vigilant.
Your adversary, the devilâ¦"
I mean, w- w- most people don't,
they don't even think like this.
Yeah.
He walks about, and the word mean
goes, goes everywhere, like a roaring
lion seeking who- whom he may devour.
Katapino, to swallow,
consume, overwhelm, engulf.
The battle's still on.
Yeah.
Hmm.
That's frustrating- You know- ⦠'cause
it doesn't really have to be with you.
Like, like Christians don't
have to take any of that
Yeah.
That's right.
The reason Jesus had to become
a man is, is because of what
is called the dominion mandate.
In Genesis 1, God gives man dominion
on this earth, and we failed to
underest- and this is another reason
for the necessity of prayer, because
he ha- God works only through men
and women in this natural realm.
He has to have that person.
You know, Ezekiel even said this, or
in Ezekiel it says, "I searched for a
man to make up the hedge and the gap.
Couldn't find one."
God says, "Appoint, have to
pour my wrath out on them."
That's crazy.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
But that's one of the
necessities of prayer.
So Jesus could not have authority on
the earth unless he was truly a man.
Yeah.
Because only a man's got authority.
Now a man is, now I'm using
an inclusive term- Right
for men and women.
Human.
So we have the authority.
Mm-hmm.
We have to enforce it.
Yeah.
You know, in the realm of healing,
that's one of my favorite areas.
Uh, you remember when Peter prays
for the dude at the gate, and he
says, I mean, he says crazy stuff,
but he says, "Such as I have."
Get you kicked out of most churches.
You know, I'm gonna
give you what I've got.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
He had healing.
Yeah.
He didn't ask the Father to heal the dude.
He said, "I'm gonna give you what I got."
Mm-hmm.
See, all spiritual gifts are given for the
person who receives, who needs the gifts.
All it does is flow out of
your life to them, whether it's
healing, whatever it is- Yeah
that, that we need.
So yeah, so yeah, Jesus, but he's a
man and he's confronting the kingdom
of darkness everywhere he goes.
Yeah.
And the New Testament is full
of these, these kind of things.
Satan entered Judas.
That's in Luke 22:3.
And so there, there was-- Or
Thessalonians, Paul says, "I wanted
to come to you," even Paul, "time and
time again, but Satan hindered us."
Well, there's warfare.
Yeah.
All right.
So here's the first major
reason why prayers don't work.
Many believers don't understand the
contested arena in which their prayers
are released, so they pray passively,
casually, as though their words
are spoken into this empty space.
It's not empty space.
When scripture reveals that prayer
moves through a realm where the
kingdom of darkness advances and the
kingdom of darkness resists and even
holds ground in the first heaven.
Yeah.
Every prayer you pray.
So when the battlefield is not recognized-
Then you're praying
from the wrong position.
Yeah.
And if you're not in the correct position,
your prayers will not be effective.
I do not pray from Earth to heaven.
I pray- From heaven to Earth ⦠as
one enthroned- Yeah ⦠in
the third heaven with him.
I pray downward into the first
realm- That's so good ⦠enforcing-
I'm telling you ⦠the victory.
Yeah.
That is so good.
That gave me chills.
That is the truth.
Yeah.
But y- if you don't-
Then I just want a redo.
You're like, "I've been
wasting so much time."
But we know now.
We know now.
Yeah.
It really will.
Like, I feel like if you, if you can
grab hold of this kind of con- Like,
I've heard the whole time, you know,
spiritual warfare and all the things, but
I never really, like, thought about it.
This is probably just, "Jill, why are
you so just ridiculously slow in this?"
But I just didn't think about
it in terms of, like, battle.
Middle military.
Even though it's likeâ¦
Yes.
Yeah.
Even though it's, it's in the name.
It's warfare.
Hello.
But visualizing an actual, like,
battle and thinking about myself as,
like, a commander of that, and there
are-- I have troops and I have to
get those guys to not do whatever.
And you making the point of we
are in an occupied time, like
we are an occupying force.
We're not in- We're not conquerors.
Right.
We've conquered.
We are attempting to conquer.
It's been conquered.
We are holding ground.
And, and then I think about, like, Ben
as an officer of the law, like, criminals
are gonna criminal, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Like, you've, you've gotta have
the police force to make them, to
have the presence, make them know,
like, "That's not tolerated here."
Like- Mm-hmm ⦠"Don't try it.
Don't try it.
We're gonna take care of that."
It's just different.
It's just clicking in my head.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's all.
That's good.
Just clicking.
Yes.
So our effective prayer then
begins with that understanding.
All our prayers are offered
in a contested realm.
And then the second thing is
recognizing where we are seated
in that contested realm, above it.
Yeah.
So-
The enemy doesn't have
to stop you from praying.
He just has to get you
in the wrong position.
Because if you're praying from
doubt, fear, worry, questions,
feeling like I'm not worthy.
Oh, man.
He's such a trickster.
Really dislike that dude.
Yeah.
It-- I call it identity theft.
Mm-hmm.
It is.
That's all the enemy's trying to do.
He's just trying to convince you.
He can't take your seat because you're
seated in the heavenly realm withâ¦
He can't, he can't touch that.
But if he can get you to pray from
somewhere other than that position,
then, then that's what it is.
Then he's not worried about your
prayer 'cause it's ineffective.
He's not worried.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the question arises, I almost
subtitled the book, "Is Satan"
or is, is, is, is the kingdom of
darkness afraid of your prayers?
I almost made that the title of the book.
Man.
You know?
Mm-hmm.
Because he may or may not be.
Yeah.
And the kingdom of darkness
doesn't care how long you
pray, how hard you pray- Right
or how emotional you get about
it, or anything else like that.
As long-- If he can just keep
you from praying prayers that are
unbiblical, prayers that are from
the wrong position, then your prayers
become ineffective, and he-- you're
not a challenge to his kingdom.
Man.
That's how it works.
So our seated position, and I'm gonna
cover this really quick, uh, here.
This is Ephesians 2:5-6.
Even when we were dead in trespasses
made us a l- listen to what happens.
Three, three things are here.
Number one, we're made
alive together with Christ.
In other words, we're
resurrected with Him.
We're in the same resurrection power
that brought Him from the grave, okay?
Then He has raised us up together, okay?
And then last of all, made us to sit
together in the ouranos, which in
that case has to refer to the third
heaven 'cause that's where He is.
Right.
His throne.
So made alive together, raised
together with, seated together with.
Each one of those words in
the original begin with a
little word called syn, S-Y-N.
It means together or
joined with or united with.
So all three of these things
are, are happened when Jesus
died and was resurrected.
I was made alive with Him.
I was raised together with Him.
I'm seated together
with Him in the heavens.
This is positional.
This is legal.
This is spiritual
reality, and it's who I am
In the kingdom.
Yep.
And when I wake up to that, and when a
person wakes up to that, they'll be a
major threat to the kingdom of darkness.
And that's what God wants to do
So we share a throne So in writing
this, have you experienced any pushback?
Oh, from the devil?
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Or are you like, you know
how to handle it, of course.
But like- Yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah, lots of spiritual warfare.
I got this thing, funny
thing going on right now.
I've, I've got thisâ¦
I, I've struggled with this, uh, sore,
this thing on my neck here for quite
a while, and, uh, it is part of that.
I don't know exactly what it is.
I, I haven't been to a doctor
or anything to see what it is.
I'm not worried about it.
But, um, so I've had this little
physical affliction going on.
Mm-hmm.
This, you know, this little thing
that's kinda like a tumor or something.
I don't know what it is.
But anyway, I, I think that's part of it.
Mm-hmm.
You know, because it's interesting
because we pray the prayer of faith
for a lot of people in healing, and so
the kingdom of darkness is always gonna
attack you in areas of your assignment,
and so that's why I find it really,
uh, interesting and, uh, I'll use the
word e- almost even logical, you know?
Yeah.
Because he would love to knock
me out of that, you know,
to say, "Well, look at you.
How are you gonna-" Yeah,
you can't heal yourself.
How, yeah.
Like, how are you gonna heal somebody?
Like, cool.
Yeah, physician, heal yourself.
Mm-hmm.
And that's the thing that's so funny.
Funny, I mean, it's hilarious
at times because we lay hands on
people and healing will be released.
See, you gotta understand something.
That's another reason
healing prayers don't work.
Um, I, I've got a book, uh, here
called, that I w- I was gonna give
you today, called Healing by the Word:
Why Your Healing Services Don't Work.
So anyway- Oh, that's good.
Thank you ⦠that was why, you know.
And, and so anyway, it's the funniest
thing because healing doesn't come down.
You know, we got all these images.
We sit in the church and we
call, "Oh, God, come down."
He came down.
Yeah.
"Oh, God, rend the heavens."
Guess what?
He rent the heavens.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's already done all this.
We're asking him to do
something he's already done.
And, uh, in the realm of healing,
then, uh, it's what happens is-
spiritual gifts, the Holy
Spirit dwells in you.
You are, and I'm getting all
subject, but it's, it'll be okay.
We are the temple, Corinthians 6, right?
The temple of God.
The word is naos.
It means the altar.
It's the place where the presence
of God dwelt in the old tabernacle.
Mm-hmm.
It refers, it literally refers
to the idol or the, in this
case, the Ark of the Covenant.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Well, guess who's the
Ark of the Covenant now?
It's me, it's you.
Right.
He dwells in us.
Right.
Okay?
He dwells in your spirit.
So when theâ¦
And so the Holy Spirit takes up
residence when I came into Christ,
which means all 21 gifts of the
Holy Spirit, now I'm talking Romans
12, Corinthians 12, Corinthians
14, there's 21 spiritual gifts.
All 21 of those gifts are dwelling inside
of me right now, dwelling inside of you.
Yeah.
Which means you have the potential toâ¦
And, and the biblical word, Paul uses
two key words here in Corinthians.
Um, he de- he describes the gifts as
the manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
Mani means finger or hand.
Festo means dance.
It's a dancing hand of God.
I love that illustration.
Mm.
That is good.
So- Yeah ⦠the
spiritual gifts are there.
And so that's how they manifest.
Now they're defined as the charismata.
See, there's charis, grace.
We recognize that.
Mm-hmm.
M-A, anytime you see an M-A on the end
of a verb in New Testament language,
it's telling you this, like rhema- Mm-hmm
right?
That word for word, it has
an M-A on the end of it.
What the M-A does, it's telling you
that what's happening here, it's
not just that a word is spoken.
It's wanting you to see what happens
or what the outcome of that verb is.
That's the emphasis.
Okay.
It's what happens because you s-
that word or that verb executes.
Okay.
So, um, sa- the same thing here, charisma.
It's describing what happens
when grace gifts function.
Mm.
Okay.
And T-A is simply plural.
Okay.
Yeah.
That means for everybody.
So that's the word that
defines spiritual gifts.
And what they do is they flow
out of my spirit through me
Sideways But we're out here hollering for
God to come down, bring your gifts down.
That ain't how it works- They're
already in us ⦠I mean-
Yeah ⦠that's not how it works.
They're not coming down.
In fact, one of my favorite s- uh,
teachers, a guy named Andrew Wommack,
he likes to he likes to say- I love
him ⦠"God's not gonna heal you today."
He healed you 2,000 years ago.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so we're out here screaming for God
to heal us when He's already done it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
See?
And, and these, uh, these
understandings are legal, they're
positional, they're spiritual reality.
So anyway, we're way off, so
but maybe we can get back here.
So there's a shared throne, y- right?
And so it's a throne of authority,
and, and this is fascinating to me.
Um, to be seated down, when one sits
down, it's one of the most misunderstood
concepts of, of the Book of Hebrews, that
when Christ was resurrected, He sat down.
See, the picture is this: the Old
Testament priests continually offered.
He stood all the time because
he continually offered one
sacrifice after another.
Yeah.
Guess what?
The final sacrifice was made in
Christ, so He sat down because
there's not another one to be made.
Right.
In other words, it's,
it's totally complete.
It's done forever.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Done for all eternity.
And so when He sits
down, the word is kathos.
That means to sit in an appointed
seat, and it means to have authority.
See, we like to use words like, well,
that's the chairman of the board.
That's where we get that
idea, when you sit in a chair.
You go to the university, they
call the teachers, well, he has
the chair in the department.
Right.
Or some people like to
throw it around like this.
Uh, he's the heavy one.
He's the weighty one.
He's, he's carrying the weight.
Right.
That's the idea.
And so He sits down, and that's why
Matthew says in Matthew 5:1 that
when He was set, Jesus delivered the
new kingdom to the world in Matthew
5, 6, and 7, when He sat down.
Hmm.
Wow.
That's the imagery.
Yeah.
Wow, that's good.
It's the, the new king just sat
down on his throne right now, and
he's gonna tell you how it is.
Wow.
See, when the pope speaks, these
are Latin words, ex cathedra,
E-X out, cathedra, kathos.
It's, it's the root of
this word to sit, sit down.
They think he's infallible, but
it means he speaks from his seat.
Well, this is what happens to us.
We're elevated with Christ.
He sits down.
That fulfilled Psalms, I think it's
110, "Sit here at my right hand until I
make all your enemies your footstool."
Mm-hmm.
That was the fulfillment of that.
And so I'm seated with Him.
I share that, and so it's
positional authority.
Now, here it is.
The believer prays from the place where
Christ is enthroned as one joined to Him.
Okay.
See, I can pray like that
because- I'm in union.
Right.
The word meno is a
fascinating little word.
M-E-N-O, meno.
I'm joined with him.
I have what he has.
Right.
I can do what he did
Hmm.
I can.
That's good.
I can do what he did.
I can lay hands on the sick.
I can pray.
I can prophesy.
I can cast out devils.
All, everything that he was,
I mean, John said as he was
in the world, so are we, baby.
Didn't after he read in,
you know, among theâ¦
He went and said, "The Spirit of
the Sovereign Lord is upon me 'cause
he has anointed me," whatever.
Yeah.
Didn't he sit down after that?
I think so.
Yeah, he did.
That's true.
Yeah.
I've never thought of it, but that's true.
Like he sat down and
then they got all mad.
Yeah.
It explains so much more about-
Yes ⦠why they got so angry.
Yeah.
Like, I mean, yeah, he said some stuff
that they clearly did not agree with.
Yeah.
They, that ruffled their feathers,
but adding in the authoritative
move of sitting down was
just like icing on the cake.
Yeah.
And it's an invasion.
Jesus was an invasion of the kingdom
of God into the kingdom of darkness.
Okay, so back to this.
This is positional authority.
The believer prays from the place
where Christ is enthroned as one
joined to him, represented by him,
and authorized beneath his lordship.
So understanding our shared
position in Christ's throne
is essential to understanding
and practicing prayer rightly.
Hmm.
If you don't know where you're
seated, you cannot pray right.
Yeah.
Many believers pray as though
they're standing on the earth.
They think they're trying to reach heaven.
They think they're sending their
prayers upward from a place of
he's out there, and I'm down here.
Oh, no.
I'm up there- Yeah ⦠with him.
Here's the way it works.
I'm his authorized
representative in the earth.
Everywhere I go, I carry
the kingdom of God.
And remember when Jesus said this, he
says, "Here's how you should pray, fellas.
Kingdom of God come and
will of God be done."
The word come is ginos.
Now this, that's a genesis
or that is a birth word
In other words, everywhere I go
I should be saying kingdom of
God be born into this situation.
In anywhere I walk, y- that you walk
into somewhere and you realize that the
kingdom of God is not being manifest,
but instead the kingdom of darkness is
operating, I'm authorized to come against
that kingdom and loose it and bind it.
Hmm.
And make, and make, as a
representative of Jesus, enforce
the victory that's already been won.
Mm.
That'll change the way you pray.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Our position in the heavenlies with
Christ, and from that seated position,
our prayers are released toward the
earth in agreement with heaven's will,
not upward from the earth as though
access were still distant or uncertain.
The overwhelming majority of
the body of Christ feels like
God is distant and uncertain.
I don't know if he gonna
answer this prayer or not.
That's not true, though.
I-- no.
No.
I mean, like, 'cause it, there's a
verse that talks about Jesus being
at the right hand of the Father.
It also talks somewhere else,
I need to look it up, but about
Jesus being to the right of us.
So if he's to the right of us,
but also to the right of the Fa-
Father, that puts us in the middle.
Yeah.
We're seated, actually seated with him-
Yeah ⦠in that same lofty, amazing-
Between God the Father and God the Son
⦠above all principalities and powers.
Yeah, cozy right there.
Yeah, that's good.
All right, so the enemy
fights against our position.
Okay?
So that's, yeah, that's
that identity theft.
I see I already jumped ahead ofâ¦
If he can keep you thinking like an
outsider, you'll speak like an outsider.
If he can keep you feeling unworthy,
you will pray like one who's waiting
to be permitted near the throne,
rather than one who's already been
seated by Christ on his throne.
So identity theft.
All right.
Let's see.
Okay, uh, chapter three,
enforcing the victory.
Oh, here's, here it is, First John 3:8.
He came as the incarnate warrior redeemer
to overthrow the tyranny of the kingdom
of darkness and bring the works of the
devil under the finished verdict of God.
He's already defeated
Scripture states the mission plainly,
"For this purpose," see, the, the New
Testament is full of this warfare stuff.
Yeah.
"For the pur- for this purpose, the
Son of God was manifested that he
might destroy the works of the devil."
We were at Acts 10:38 Mm-hmm.
Yeah And he came
To destroy, you know, to, to, to release
all those that were held captive.
Yeah.
The word destroy there is luo, to
loose, break apart, dismantle, undo.
Jesus came to dismantle everything
the enemy had constructed.
Everything that the enemy
has, has constructed.
See what happened when Adam fell,
that authority that God had ve- that
it's called the dominion mandate,
he put man in charge of everything.
Yeah.
Psalms 1:15 says, "The earthâ¦"
He said, "The heavens are
the heavens of the Lord.
The earth, he assigned to men."
Yeah.
He said, "You're gonna rule it.
You're gonna rule it for me.
You take-- I'll take care of the heavens.
You take care of the earth."
Yeah.
Well, when Adamâ¦
And, and here's what happened.
I mean, Jesus even says this.
He calls Satan the, the,
the archai, the chief one
And he was.
Mm-hmm.
Remember what Satan said?
He, he shows Jesus all the kingdoms of the
world and says, "Bow down and worship me.
I'll give it to you, for it
has been delivered to me."
Mm-hmm.
Where did he get it?
He got it from Adam.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Well, guess what happened when Jesus came?
He undid all that- Yeah ⦠and
restored it all back to us.
Right.
Phew.
So it's a decisive- ⦠blow to the
kingdom of darkness, and his mission
was not partial, it was total.
It's total.
And this is Colossians 2:15.
He disarmed.
Remember those principalities
and powers that Paul talked about
that we're struggling against?
They're all disarmed.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Colossians 2:15 And the word means
to strip it off or to disarm it.
So the outcome is not in question.
The outcome of the conflict
is never in question.
At the cross, Jesusâ¦
And listen carefully.
At the cross, Jesus delivered
a decisive, irreversible defeat
to the kingdom of darkness.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
He's done.
Yeah.
Principalities and powers were
stripped, disarmed, public- publicly
exposed, their authority broken, and
their legal claims are nullified.
And it's a whole 'nother thing, but
the kingdom of darkness can only op-
can always, can only operate where
they have a legal right to operate.
Everywhere that he operates, he thinks
he's, he has to have a legal right,
and, and by our actions and our words
and things, people open their lives to
legal access by the kingdom of darkness.
And you have to understand
that, and that's why my friends,
I have a dear friend, Dr.
Travis Arterberry, that, that
prays a prayer of, uh, victory.
Deliverance is what some people call it.
And so what he's always looking for, Dr.
Travis will listen to a person, and
he's seeking to discern the legal
points of access that the enemy has.
Where they gave it to him?
Yeah.
Yes.
It's fascinating.
I've been with him in those sessions,
and it's remarkable what happens
into people's lives when you start
dealing with the legal access
that the enemy has to their life.
Hmm.
It, it's, it's profound what will happen.
So what remains is not a battle to
be won, but a victory to be enforced.
The battle's already won.
Then here it is.
The enemy does not continue fighting
because he's powerful, but because
he is allowed to operate on illegal
ground where the church has not
yet applied Christ's finished work.
Yeah.
That's why there's soâ¦
And you know the stats.
Mm-hmm.
Man, in the church, we're not
much better than the world.
Mm-mm.
We got sick people all over the place.
We got people-
Yeah ⦠that are depressed.
We got, you name it.
Yeah.
We have marriages that are
breaking up like crazy.
It's the s- all pretty much the same
rate as those who don't even know Christ.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And we got all this stuff, and yet Jesus
said, "I've come that you might have-"
life have more abundantly.
I see there's some big disconnect.
I mean, I go to this church.
Yeah, healing, remember, is
one of my favorite things.
I go to this church, a, a big Assembly
of God church that's really cool,
and they, they have a prayer meeting
every Wednesday morning, and I got
invited, so I go to this prayer
meeting, and they have this 8 by 10â¦
Or not 8 by 10, it would be
8 by 4, yeah, uh, whiteboard,
and they have two columns.
One of them says, "Those who need
healing," and the other column
said, "Those who received healing."
And I was so intrigued by that.
I stood there and looked at that thing.
There must have been 100 names on
this s- needs healing- Mm-hmm ⦠and
there are about 15 over here.
And I took a picture of it 'cause I
thought that is the perfect picture of
what we allow to happen in the church.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You know, and then
somebody made this comment.
I was telling, uh, telling them about
that board, and they said, "Yeah."
He said, "Yeah, we have one
of those at our church, too."
And he said, "You know, about the only
way you ever get off of it is to die."
'Cause then you- I
mean ⦠you've probably healing.
Yeah, because we can't get
you through to healing.
Yeah.
Oh my goodness.
So anyway, the only question is
whether believers will stand in
their seated position and carry that
victory into a lived reality on earth.
When believers, and here it is, when
believers fail to enforce Christ's
victory, they do not negate it.
They simply leave its benefits unapplied.
Mm-hmm.
That's sad.
Until the believer speaks, stands,
and acts from that finished victory,
the enemy continues to oper- occupy
ground that he no longer legally owns.
See, the cross was a
transaction of legality
I mean, when Jesus said this, he said,
"It's finished," in Matthew-- or John 19.
"It is finished."
The word is tetelestai in the original.
That word was used in the ancient world
on legal documents to show that a debt or
an obligation had been fully satisfied.
They would stamp that on documents.
You pay off a debt, you pay off
your house or whatever, whatever,
boom, tetelestai goes on it.
That's what Jesus said from the cross.
He wasn't saying, "I'm dying now."
He's saying, "It is all
finished and done now."
Yeah.
I have come to fulfill the Father's will.
At that moment, it was completely done.
Mm.
That's good.
Yeah.
And it was-- it's legal.
And then what he did is that he
Triumphed.
The word is triumph in the New
Testament, which means a celebration.
But see, a triumph, and you remember
you, you've watched the old, uh,
movies from the Roman era, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Where, where that conquering general comes
down the street and he's parading all the
people- Uh-huh ⦠that he's captured, and
he's showing all the goods that he, that
he's plundered and brought back to Rome.
That's the triumph.
The triumph takes place after the victory.
Yeah.
Not before.
Right.
See?
And, and that's the image
that Paul uses, that whenâ¦
So, so we're, we're
participating in a triumph.
We're in the parade after
the victory's already won.
Yeah.
We're not in the one
that's trying to win one.
Mm-hmm.
It's already won.
Okay.
So everywhere the kingdom of darkness
holds ground, it's not legal.
They're trespassing on God's property.
It's our job to evict them.
The New Testament never calls
believers to defeat the enemy.
It calls them to stand.
Here's the words it uses.
You gotta stand against the enemy.
You gotta resist the devil.
He'll flee from you.
You have to bind the enemy.
You have to loose the enemy, and
you have to ekballo is the New
Testament word, cast him out.
Yeah.
That's what it tells you to do-
Mm-hmm ⦠to the kingdom of darkness.
So prayer is the act
of delegated authority.
Remember what Jesus said, "I gave you
power over all the power of the enemy."
I think that's Luke 10,
10:19, I think it is.
See, this is where the, the,
the, the text gets important.
We get two English words, power and power.
They're two different words.
I give you ex- exousia, which means
delegated legal authority over
all the dunamis, all the power.
See, dunamis means dynamite- Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm ⦠or power.
I give you delegated authority over
all the power of the enemy I'm legal.
Yeah.
So I can confront the kingdom of
darkness with the finished work of the
cross and say, "Hey, you're leaving
because you, demon, are defeated,
and you have no legal right here."
Yeah.
And I pray the same way when I'm
praying for somebody to be healed.
"You illegal trespasser of sickness
and infirmity, whatever you are, I come
against you in the mighty name of Jesus.
I command you to get out
of that person's body."
Yeah.
You wanna see prayers
that work for healing?
Start praying like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What do we do?
"Oh, God, comfort this person."
Yeah.
"Please heal this person."
"Oh, God, please send down."
Yeah.
He's already come down.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
You're already healed.
That's the great revelation of prayer.
We have to enforce, and we do
that by using the name of Jesus.
It's the legal instrument.
"In my name, they'll cast
out devils," Mark 16:17.
"In my name."
The spirit, under my legal
jurisdiction, people don'tâ¦
They, they use that phrase so loosely,
don't even understand what it means.
In the name of Jesus, in the legal
authority of who he is, what he has, and
he's authorized me to demonstrate it to
the world, then yeah, that's how it works.
So, so take your seat.
Number one, prayers that work, and
this is why prayers don't work,
'cause people are not in their seat.
They don't know.
And then, but take your seat.
Speak in the name of Jesus, a legal
instrument of heaven's authority, then
wield the rhema, the sword of the Spirit.
Remember that?
Mm-hmm.
Against the lies, the accusational
press, and then resist the devil,
stand against him until he flees.
So we enforce the victory.
And then, then I'll close
it with this last chapter.
I'm persuaded without
hesitation, without apology.
This chapter exposes the primary
catastrophic reason multitude of
sincere believers continue to pray
prayers that simply do not work.
There's a fault line running beneath
the prayer lives of God's people, a
breach through which authority leaks,
confidence collapses, expectation
withers, and prayer remains unanswered.
There's a hidden sabotage, one issue that
has quietly neutralized the prayers of the
church, leaving believers to wonder why
heaven seems unmoved Church is full of it.
The most overlooked reality in the life
of prayer is this: if you refuse to engage
the enemy in spiritual warfare where
your prayers are moving and where you are
seated, your prayers will be resisted,
delayed, and in some cases rendered
ineffective, not because God is unwilling,
because the believer is ignoring the
battlefield on which prayer operates.
Wow.
Hmm.
That's good.
That's the root of it
Okay.
If we free, if we refuse to acknowledge
the fight, we'll pray politely while
the enemy resists aggressively.
We will pray devotionally while
the enemy operates strategically.
Yeah.
See, Paul said this.
He said, "We're not ignorant
of the, of Satan's devices."
The word is strategy, stratagems.
Yeah.
He has a strategy.
They operate things-
Mm-hmm ⦠against you.
I'm, I, I can tell you sometimes, and I
won't, but where- ⦠where it, it was
not happenstance that something happened.
Something happened or
something came against us.
It's just like, how did that happen?
Boy, what a time to drop that on my life.
We will pray from the earth while
the enemy occupies the heavens.
Ignoring warfare does not remove warfare.
It only removes our
effectiveness within it.
And when that happens, our prayers
lack authority because authority
must be exercised, not assumed.
Those prayers don't work.
Yeah.
They don't work.
Your prayers will lack direction
because they're not aimed at the real
source of resistance They don't work.
Your prayers will lack breakthrough
because breakthroughs require
confrontation, and your prayers will lack
enforcement because enforcement is the
believer's responsibility, not God's.
Yeah.
This is the truth of this thing.
When the believer avoids resistance,
the enemy's granted illegal occupation,
not by right, but by silence.
Yeah.
And I'll touch this just for a second.
I've got another book that I'm,
I finished called "The Commanding
Voice," the voice of command.
Okay, this gets a little technical,
but you, you, you'll catch it.
In the New Testament language,
there's a thing, the verbs have
what is the verb or the actions
have what's called a mood, M-O-O-D.
I'm in a certain mood.
Yeah.
There's these, the coolest moods
ever in, in New Testament language,
and one of those moods, interesting
enough, is called the imperative.
Remember when I, I said that Jesus said,
um, "Kingdom of God come and will of
God be done," that it's a birth word.
Mm-hmm.
It's, uh, that come is imperative.
It's a command.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
And here's what's fascinating.
You study every, every
word that Jesus speaks.
Every time he heals, comes, cast
out a demon or anything else, every
single time the Greek text will
shift into the imperative mood.
It's a command.
Mm.
Okay.
Come out of him.
Yeah.
Take up your bed and walk.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Stretch out your hand.
Imperative every time.
It's not a request.
It's not a request.
Yeah.
It's a command.
And when, and when Jesus said
this, the greatest teaching he ever
gave is Mark 11:23 and 24, "When
you pray, speak to the mountain."
It's in the co- imperative.
You command the mountain.
Come out.
Be moved.
Right?
That's good.
That's good.
That's so good.
Yeah.
And that's what the
disciples learned that.
I mean, Paul looks at a dude and
says, "Stand up on your feet."
The imperative.
Yeah.
Command talk.
Yeah.
Kingdom of God come.
It's in the imperative.
Yeah.
Command it.
This is- Command it ⦠so good.
Yeah.
Because- I feel so dumb.
Here's, because here's the deal.
Here's the deal.
Can I give you another insight?
Speak to the mountain, and
then he says, "It will beâ¦
It will move."
It'll be cast intoâ¦
Right?
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
That construction is, um, the passive
And in other words, there's activeâ¦
See, it, it's called voice.
If it's active, it's showing
me who's doing the action.
Mm-hmm.
In other words, if I say, "I hit Joe"-
Right ⦠I did that, then that's active.
Yeah.
If Joe hit me- Yeah ⦠that's passive.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
That means the action was done by
somebody else, but it affected me.
Yeah.
Right.
And that's, that, the
mountain moves, is passive.
It means I speak it,
and then God moves it.
Mm.
Yeah.
I don't move it.
He does.
But you have to speak it.
Iâ¦
one of the most fascinating words,
Hebrews 4:12, that the word of God
is powerful, you know, all that.
Mm-hmm.
And it's called a two-edged sword.
In Revelation 1, Jesus has a
two-edged sword coming out of hisâ¦
Right?
Mm-hmm.
I believe that's, yeah.
Yes.
Two-edged sword out of his mouth.
Okay, this two-edged thing is one
of the fascinating words around.
It, it is, it, it's pronounced di.
D-I means two.
Mm-hmm.
It's one of those
wonderful little prefixes.
It divides di, two.
Stoma, which means mouth.
It's a two-mouthed sword.
In the ancient world, if a harbor had
two entrances, it was called distoma.
It's about agency.
It's about direction.
It's about something moving
The Word of God is a two-mouthed sword.
Guess whose mouths?
His and mine.
Yeah.
See, people don't understand that silence
is consent to the kingdom of darkness.
It will not move unless you speak to it.
Yeah, and how many times have we
said, "I just don't-- I've prayed.
I can't pray anymore."
It's exactly where he wants you.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
And so you speak to the mountain
Or the old classic thing says,
"Don't tell God about your mountain,
tell your mountain about God."
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so it's, it's a diastoma
thing that has to take place.
That's so good.
You have to speak to it.
That's good.
I feel like you've been practicing
a lot of psychological warfare,
but maybe not, like, strategic.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Like, 'cause we talk all the time
and kind of almost make light
of poking fun with, like, theâ¦
You said it the other day, um, when you
were talking about how, like, sometimes
when you are dealing with a harassing
spirit or whatever, and you're just
like, "How's it feel to never have
another-" Yeah ⦠"second chance?"
Well, it talks to me.
You know?
You know, like at one time I
was, like, getting ready in the
bathroom and just thoughts of,
like, you know, pressing thoughts.
And then I was realizing, "Oh,
this is a harassing spirit."
Yes.
So I was like, "Well, you talk
to me, so I'll just talk to you.
You're never gonna get a
second chance, and I will.
I can have as many chances as I want.
How's that feel?"
And it left.
Yeah.
You know?
It, it didn't wanna hear it.
I just felt it leave.
But- Yeah
I should've been more sh-
uh, stronger, I guess.
Likeâ¦
I don't know.
I mean, I don't know.
Sometimes I just feel like it left.
Yeah, it left.
I mean, it worked.
Yeah.
It left.
But maybeâ¦
I guess w- I, I need to be better
about identifying on the front side
of it and just, like, shooing it away.
Yeah.
Like, "You're done.
You don't have any power here."
Yeah.
"You don't have the authority.
Get out."
Yes.
"You have no legal right here."
Yep.
Yeah.
That's really good.
Yeah.
So you begin to recognize, Paul
said, "We're not ignorant of
his devices or strategies."
You begin to recognize
when the enemy's at work.
Several years ago, I was on staff
at Fellowship of Christian, the
executive pastor, and there's a fellow
over there named Travis Arterberry.
Mm-hmm.
Travis Arterberry.
Yeah.
Remarkable dude.
For, like, 40 years he's been praying
with people for freedom, for deliverance
from all sorts of life-altering
things, demonic manifestations,
and all this kind of stuff.
He says, "Thomas, I want you to come
and join me one night when I minister."
Now look, I got saved in high
school at 20 years of age.
We were at Arkansas State.
Uh, I got my credentials, started my
credentials with the Assemblies of God.
We became a campus pastor.
I grew up in the Assemblies.
I came to First Assembly in 1988 and so I
was aware of, quote, "spiritual warfare."
I had some understanding, you
know, or whatever, but Travis
invites me into his session.
And there's a guy there who's just
got all sorts of emotional, spiritual
bondages going on in his life.
And Travis says, "Well,
tell me your story."
And he's lis- he's just listening to the
guy and he's over there, he's writing
down stuff like he, he's discerning the,
the legal ground that the enemy occupies.
You know, I find out- Mm-hmm
⦠later exactly what he's doing.
I didn't know.
But, uh, so he says, "Okay."
So they get up, him and another
guy, he's got a partner, Dr.
Ken Shores is his partner, and
they lay hands on the guy, and they
start calling out by name these
demons and principalities and powers
that are afflicting this dude.
And I mean, they're going to war with it.
"You come out of the guy
in the name of Jesus.
I come against you with the sword of the
spirit, and I sever every relationship
you've got in that man's soul.
I command you to come out," and whatever.
And I'm just, Kerrye, I'm
just like a fly on the wall.
Like you're like, "Ooh."
And I'm over there- ⦠and I'm saying
Holy Spirit, is this how this works?
I didn't know.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, we don't
know what we don't know.
Yeah.
I didn't know.
Yeah.
They carry on with that guy,
and I'm telling you, that guy,
when they got done, he left.
And Sunday morning, this was on
Thursday night, on Sunday morning, I'm
standing in the foyer of the church,
a guy comes in, he makes a beeline
over to me, and he starts telling
me all the amazing things that have
happened in his life since that night.
And I was like, "I need to know this."
Yeah.
And that man, Travis
Hardberry, opened my eyes.
I don't know everything about it.
I know that, I just
know that it's warfare.
And, you know, you can debate
the theology, and there's
plenty of it out there.
Well, a demon, you can't- Yeah ⦠be in
a Christian, a Christian can't have one.
You know?
Well, I don't know.
I mean, the great Jack
Hayford's one of my heroes.
Jack Hayford said this about all that.
He said, "Well, I don't know
where they are as far as a demon
and a Christian is involved."
He said, "I don't believe they're
in their spirit, but, uh, they're
somewhere and, and all I can say
is they are in when they're in."
And, and I have found
that to be a reality.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I don't know if they're actually, uh,
in your flesh at some level perhaps,
or what, you know- Yeah ⦠probably
more embedded into your soul or, but
I think they're really probably mainly
up here because that's what I see in
2 Corinthians 4:4, the enemy has the
ability to blind the mind of unbelievers.
Now, that doesn't just mean
those that are- Yeah ⦠unsaved.
See, like the word faith
is pistis, P-I-S-T-I-S.
If I put a alpha, which is the first
letter of the alphabet, on the front of
a, a verb, then it negates what follows.
And so that's what you get.
An unbeliever, which translated
unbeliever, that word there is apistis.
It's the opposite of faith.
Yeah.
So that's not just for people that
are unsaved, and that word comes
out, usually comes out as unbelief.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And, and that's accurate.
So we don't have faith problems,
we have unbelief problems.
Yeah.
And all that's what really limits
God in all of our lives is notâ¦
I mean, we're given a measure of faith.
I've got faith.
Everybody believes God can.
They're just not certain that he will.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They have unbelief.
There's a difference between
believing and trusting.
Yes.
That's, that's the challenge.
Yep.
And so, uh, the enemy can influence
the mind by casting doubt.
Remember what James says, "If a
man doubts, let not that man think
he'll receive anything from God."
It won't happen.
Doubt, now can I break
that word right quick?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Diakrino.
D-I-A, there's no beautiful prefix.
We get a like diameter or dia-
Dia means divided.
Krino is judgment.
So a doubt is when I, when I
have two judgments operating
concurrently within my mind.
Well, God might.
Well, I'm not sure that he will.
Well, I hope he will.
Well, I think he will.
Back and forth.
Mm-hmm.
You have divided judgment.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's what-- that's the root of
unbelief- Mm-hmm ⦠a divided judgment.
Hmm.
And then here's another fascinating thing.
James will go on, and then he will define
that divided judgment as a position,
and he says that that guy is, umâ¦
And he used the word disouke.
He's got two souls within him
Two souls, two- House divided ⦠mind,
wills, and emotion going- Yeah ⦠two
different ways- Yeah ⦠at the same time.
And I'm trying to think that,
uh, what is that exact English
word that he uses right there?
Um- Look it up ⦠oh,
he is double-minded.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That, that's the word I'm looking for.
Unstable.
Yeah, yeah, unstable in all his ways.
Yeah.
Yeah, double-minded.
Yeah, Daisuke, he's got two different
minds operating within his soul, and
that's the condition of one who's trapped
in unbelief or diakrino- Huh ⦠doubt.
So, uh, that- that's
where the struggle is.
Mm-hmm.
That's where the struggle is,
is, you know, to, to learn how to
get the doubt out of your life.
Yeah.
That's really interesting.
It is.
That's reallyâ¦
We're gonna have to have you back on
to talk about more stuff . I'm gonna
ha- I'm telling you what, like, I'm
so glad I get to edit this- Yeah
⦠'cause I'm gonna be able to, like,
digest- Chew on it ⦠it all again.
Where can people get your books?
Well, I have a website.
I, I, I give every- I try to give-
We'll put it on there ⦠everything
away, so- Yeah ⦠there's that.
Oh, thanks.
Yes.
Um- Thanks.
What's the website?
Uh, Thomas T.
Hale, H-A-L-E.
Thomas as in Theodore.
Up- ThomasThale.com.
Okay.
Okay.
And so, like, all my books
can be downloaded as PDFs-
Mm-hmm ⦠and printed like that.
Yeah.
Okay.
I put them on Amazon, you know,
just so people, if they want an
e-book, and I just put them down.
I think the e-books are $2.99.
That's as low as Amaz-
otherwise, I'd put them at zero.
I don't care.
Yeah.
Uh, 2.99,
and then the printed
books, I think 5, 4, 4.99.
Or it's the lowest price.
I think I make 75 cents.
And it- You know, like, it wasâ¦
It, itâ¦
My, I mean- This is not your,
this is not your retirement plan.
No.
Gotcha.
It never was.
No, and that's a whole nother story
about how- Yeah ⦠enriched God
has made our lives, uh, because
we served him all of our lives.
Yeah.
And so we just wanna give things away.
I don't have an agenda.
Yeah.
Well- So all the PDFs are there.
That one's not.
I don't have that one up yet.
I'm actually still working on that one.
Yeah.
All right.
That was a good- Yeah ⦠good sneak peek.
Yeah, for sure.
So.
Yeah.
I don't think that one's online
either, that one I gave you.
Healing by the Word.
Why Your Healing Services Don't Work.
Well, if you- I, I hope that stirs
some things up ⦠if y'all want
it, you'll have to come see me
'cause I got a copy of it now.
Well, thank you so much- Fair ⦠for
being with us, and next time,
Beth will talk the whole time.
Right, Beth?
She's just like, "No."
She's like, "Absolutely not.
Not doing it."
I really enjoyed it.
Really, really enjoyed it.
Yeah, it was- Uh, when you were talking,
uh, I mean, I really did enjoy it, and
I felt like, I felt like time went fast.
But I remember my mind went here,
but I remember one time you got up to
preach in big church, like with the
adults, 'cause you were a youth pastor.
But you said, "Okay, I'm
used to talking to youth.
Um, so this isâ¦"
He goes, "I'm gonna be like the chicken
that laid an egg on the highway.
I'm gonna- Ah.
⦠I'm gonna lay it fast, and
I'm gonna lay it on the line."
The old joke.
Yeah.
It is so funny.
I was like- I used to
use that all the time.
Yeah.
Lay it fast and lay it on the line.
I've thought about that so many times.
But- My goodness.
Oh, goodness.
Well, that's good.
Well, this was good.
All right.
And I'm sure, like, this'll
be one I refer to a lot.
Yeah.
So- Yeah ⦠thank you so much.
Love to meet.
I love both of y'all so much.
Yep.
I just declare it as revelation
to- Yes ⦠all of our lives.
Yes.
Yeah.
As revelation that our prayers
will work and make a difference,
and we enforce the victory.
Yes.
Yeah.
Amen.
On the cross and everything.
Mm-hmm.
I agree.
Yeah.
And so lay hands on the
sick, cast out devils.
You can call that out.
And, uh, God will- And let us
know when you do it 'cause we
wanna- Yeah ⦠we wanna hear.
Yeah.
God will give you discernment.
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah.
Yep.
Thanks so much again.
All right.
Until next time.
Bye.