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An insight into the character, personality and passion of the leading figures in the Investigation and Intelligence industry who have shaped the way we gather, analyse and utilise information and intelligence.
Did you never think, oh, that's it, I'm blown, I'm never
walking out of this alive? Did you ever have that kind of feeling?
Facilitating a crime, assisting it, abetting
it, how do you judge whether you're going to come up and
someone says, sorry, Nick, you should never have done that. We're
going to do you with the criminals. So what would you say to that young
Nick Shah? And he said, OK, Big Nick. What was
the price you paid? You look like a completely normal dude. You know,
don't pull my leg. What was the price you paid for that work? Or
what did your family— what was the price your family paid for you being in
that work? Welcome to the Intelligence Advantage
Podcast, where I, Gary Miller, get to talk to the movers and
shapers in the investigation and intelligence industry and
find out exactly how they got to where they are today.
I'm thrilled to be joined this morning by Nick Shah, a good buddy,
and somebody who just brings everything to the world
of intelligence and investigation. If I mention a few
words such as kidnap, extortion, death
threats, drugs, and arms, you'll get a bit of a feeling
for what Nick's life has been like for a number of years.
And we're going to hopefully explore that with him. So Nick, thank you so
much. Thank you. For joining us. No, thanks for
inviting me. Appreciate it. It's my pleasure. And before,
I remember I suggested to you have a quick look at the previous
podcast so you're not taken too much unaware. There were some familiar faces on there,
Gary. There are some familiar faces. And one of the
things I enjoy, and I hope you will enjoy, is just going
into a bit about your background before we look at job titles and
And what you did. I'm more interested in really who you
are. So I hope my research is
correct that you actually, you and your family were
expelled from Idi Amin's Uganda and you
arrive in the UK at the tender age of
something like 4. And my question is,
do you remember anything of that process? Was it scary or
did it not register? Yeah, it's interesting because
I was 4. I don't have a lot of memories, but, um, so my mum
came over. My father had just passed. Well, he passed
while she was pregnant with me. Oh, I'm sorry. She had 5
children. By that time, my oldest son married and moved on, so she brought
4 of them, 4 of us over in October of
'72. Not been in the UK before, not
understanding, um, anything, but We ended up in a
refugee camp for a few months before we moved into
some social housing and some council house that we got. But
yeah, remarkable woman to
bring us. And is she still around, Nick, or not? No, she
passed, oh, probably around 20 years ago. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah.
That sounds like a remarkable woman. So she arrives in the UK with how many
kids? 5 in total? 4 kids in total. 4 kids in total. The
oldest being? My oldest, my sister, would've been
16. 16. And so I hope they're
all around at the moment. Yep.
So do you ever, the 4 of you, sit down and talk about that crazy
period in your lives, or does she not remember much either? No, they
remember a lot. I mean, to be honest, they took the brunt of it at
that age. They remember everything. And, you know, I'm
blessed because I have less of a memory, but they would tell,
you know, we had a good life in Uganda. My family had been there for,
well, my grandfather had moved there, so we'd been there for a long time
and we had a good life. And all of a sudden we're literally in
a different country. It's freezing cold, it's October,
and we've got clothes we're wearing and a couple of small suitcases.
Oh, so it was really an evacuation, was it? It was really get your bag
and run. Well, it was that, and also I know the
stories my sisters and my mum used to tell where on the way to the
airport, the military would stop the coaches and
steal jewelry and steal whatever they could to take off the
passengers. So we literally came with nothing. But
my mum was a very strong character, and she was 5 foot nothing,
but literally, her view was, no, we start again, we move
on. They started with nothing in Uganda and their view was,
we just get on with it. And that's how she always lived her life.
And you say you were in Uganda, the family. Before that,
where does the Shah family actually originate? From
India. Yeah. So I think back in the
'30s, grandfather, my father, and my mom
decided the new world was
Africa. And they moved to Uganda and stayed there
for all those years. Right.
And the languages that your
parents and your brothers and sisters, or those of them
that were able to be at school, were what?
Family language is Gujarati. So we all speak Gujarati, and that was
my first language. But being in Africa, my mum
spoke 5 languages. She spoke Hindi,
Swahili, English, obviously Gujarati, and
Urdu because they had a business
and they were importing, exporting lots of materials
and stuff. So all my brothers and sisters speak Swahili, which
really annoys me because I don't. Because you don't, even though you have
done a few stints in or around Africa, right? Yeah, I can
get by with hellos, goodbyes, and, you know, can have a beer,
but that's about it. That's about it.
And you arrive in the UK in, as you
say, October, wondering what on earth was
happening to your world. And what was your first memory? Was
it the weather or was it— and because you went straight to a refugee camp,
what was that like? I have very little memories of it, which
sort of we try and uncover later on in life. And I think it was
just trauma-related element and the change and
everything else. But I do remember the— and
my sort of siblings and my mum used to say we were well looked after
in the refugee camp. So there's volunteers. It was near
Yeovil in Somerset. Right. You know, the
charities, the churches, they all came out and helped us
integrate, gave us clothes, gave us blankets. But
it was cold for us. It was a very cold, harsh winter.
And I remember being cold. Being the sibling and being the
baby, I got probably better treatment than everyone else.
And then sort of the next memory jumps forward to, I think we were there
for about just short of 6 months and we
get moved to a small town in Wiltshire.
And we are blessed with a council
house, and that's what the term was in those days. Yeah. We
move into there and we lived there for many, many years. So you were
there for a good part of your early life. Do you, one of
the things that hits me from your
biographies and the work that, the stuff that I've read is
the influence that being in a council house,
or was it a council estate, had on you in terms of
where you saw your future direction in life?
Or is that overplayed? No, not
my future direction. What it did teach me was about people.
We lived in this small village, well, small town for
about, when was I, about 11 before we
moved into a bigger city council estate. Right. I see. No, it was the
council estate that I've read that had an influence on you. Yes.
11 onwards, it was different, a lot more rougher.
different element of life. It didn't choose my career path
because I'm Indian and either you're a doctor or an
accountant or a lawyer. And this is back in this '80s.
Or an entrepreneur, because your mom and dad were business people,
weren't they? Yeah. But my mom and my father,
she would say, was very into education and the kids need
to be educated. So my sister, one was a
microbiologist, another, my brother was an accountant. My sister ended
up as a bank manager. And I joined the police, which was not
on the plan. I did my A-levels. I was due to go to
university to do law, and, um,
epitome. Oh, we could have been partners, Nick, in a law
firm. Apparently I was too honest and truthful, Gary.
So you were immediately directed to the police.
But tell me a bit about the Perhaps the
sharper edge of being Indian, Ugandan Indian
on a council estate. I remember when I, Linda and I, my wife, asked this
about our boys when they used to say to us, oh, who are you
bringing home tonight? We're bringing Jelani and Romani.
And so I said, well, where are they from? And kids
don't initially identify people by color, which is
wonderful until of course society gets hold of them. So, when did you
realize that you were different from the rest of the gang?
Probably from a really young age because the small town we
moved in, we were the only non-white family there. Oh, wow.
Okay. My brothers and sisters finished off their schooling, and then
I started my schooling. And then when we moved to the bigger town,
more noticeable. I had friends. It was good. You know, life
seemed normal, although you get the bullies. And in those days,
you remember, this is the '70s, you had the National Front sitting outside. Yeah.
All handing out leaflets. And I was one of very few
non-white kids in that school. And, and it's all directed towards
us. So we were quite a quiet
family. We didn't, you know, typical Hindu, turn the other cheek, walk
away, leave it be. And we did that for most of my, most of my
schooling. I didn't enjoy schooling. But, um, was it
primarily because of that, Nick, that you've just felt always under threat?
It was primarily because I didn't feel like I fitted in too well,
right? The first town we were there, I loved school. It was great
and small environment. Bigger school in the new town.
Also, I joined halfway through the terms, so new
boy and everything that's normal in, in all those factors.
But I just I just didn't feel
what was the point. I was doing this because I had to. Yeah.
Because your parents expected you to, right? Yeah. And then
I did my, in those days, O-levels, but my standards dropped.
I used to be top of the class when I first went
there. Kids used to come around and do homework with me.
And over the years, it declined rapidly to
You'll remember this when you had the choice of doing O-levels and
GCSEs. No, CSEs. CSEs. Yes. Yes.
And I went to, they put me in the CSE class.
Wow. From last year. And so, yeah, it was a bit of a shock.
I studied, I got the top of the grade of the CSE, but you know,
where are you going to go with those in those days? You need to do
A-levels, you needed O-levels. So I went back to college.
And did a year, did all of the subjects again. So you did them all?
Okay. And I got my O-levels and it was a different environment.
College was much different. I enjoyed it and I did a year of that and
then I did my A-levels. And what, do you remember the subjects you
did at A-level or not? Oh God, yeah. Law, economics,
and maths. Wow. I was just about to say, you and I almost
ended up doing the same A-levels. I did law, economics
and sociology because I was rubbish at anything to do with
figures. And your experience probably with lawyers
probably confirmed that there's not exactly a
long list of super numeric lawyers around.
Maybe I'm being a bit unfair now, but so—
It was different. I look at my kids now and
when they went through their schooling, for me, I I was rubbish
at interpretation, English literature, all that.
I didn't get that. Whereas I just, I would be happy
with a simple yes or no answer, something that had fact. And
those 3 subjects worked for me because there was only a right
answer and wrong answer. Yes. So that's, it shows a little
bit how your brain was, at least at that stage, working.
So there you are. You've got decent A-levels, I imagine? Yeah,
I've got a place. I had the options of Reading,
Aberystwyth, and Warwick, I remember. Oh, wow.
Those aren't anything to be a nose turned up at. So
there you are. You've got, I imagine, strong pressure from mum
saying, go to do law, go to do law. So what was the
turning point? What was it that, as Malcolm Gladwell would say, what's the
tipping point that pushed you towards the police? I think for
me, firstly, my mum didn't pressure me. She was, she was the coolest
mum ever. She, you know, having gone through what she'd done, yeah,
she was, you do what you feel is right, but I think this is
probably a next step for you to put the foundations down.
It was probably my brothers and sisters that were keen to get
me educated and get me on a path. And, um, and I got to a
stage that we, we were still living in a council house, so by then It
was me and my younger sister with my mum. And
it was just a moment in time, Gary, which I still reflect on, and I'm
not sure what happened, but one morning I just went, I'm done. I'm done of
being poor and doing this
sort of mouse sort of circle
of just education. And there's gotta be more to life. And if I
get a job, we'll get money and we don't have to be in this environment.
Why the police? You know, I did look, um, at the end of my
schooling period, and my area was at the Royal Navy, becoming a
pilot, and was keen to do that. But then,
you know, my mum was going to be on her own, and all those factors
fell in, and I went, okay, I can join the police. That's not far.
And that's literally what I did. And I woke up in the
morning looking up on the wardrobe and seeing a uniform there and sort of scratching
my head. How did that quite happen?
Wonderful. So, so how does it work? Do you just— back in the day, I
don't know whether there were online applications— you just walk into the local
cop shop and say, I'd like a job please, mate? I actually, during
my law degree— and law degree, my A-level law— I used to go to
the Crown Courts a lot and sit and listen to things there. And
there used to always be policemen in the courts then, and you'd see
me literally a couple of times a week and sort of start chatting. So I
asked him, And he said, well, go into the local police station and
speak to someone. And that's how it, you know, there was nothing online then.
And I had, yeah, 2, a few interesting things.
They were keen. And then they asked me to speak to, there was one other
Asian officer that was in the force who had been in the force for a
long time. You should speak to him. So, I arranged to speak to him.
Lovely guy. Really, really nice guy. He tried to persuade me not
to, which was like, okay.
But he was honest. He was honest and gave me warts and all. So I
decided to do it. And then the process then was, it was quite historical.
You had to first put an application in and then used to have home
visits. They used to come to the house and visit you at home
and speak to your parents or whoever it was at the time. Very
sensible. They don't do it anymore. I don't believe so. It was
funny because they actually came in uniform
in a marked car outside the house where we used to live, which,
you know, there was police cars down our street a lot, but not for that
sort of thing. It was for other reasons. And they actually brought and
left someone in the car 'cause they didn't want to leave the car unattended.
So you can get a sort of flavor of where we lived.
Yeah. My mum by that stage was going, if that's what you want to do,
You know, I'll support you. And so we did that, and then you had to
go away for an assessment. I think it was a 2 or 3-day assessment at
the headquarters, and finally told whether you were in or not.
Did you get any, I don't know, pushback or
resentment from the council house estate,
council estate people, once they knew you were Mr. Plod? Well,
no, we kept that very quiet because the way it worked
in those days was that you never policed the area you lived in. Ah,
okay. So I got moved. You did walk out the door in your uniform a
few times, didn't you? No,
never. I used to work, and in those days, if you
were, I think it was, if you were under the age of
30 and not married, you weren't allowed to
own a house. You couldn't buy a house. You either had to live at home
or you had to live in police accommodation. And so
I moved some miles away. to my first
posting, and so they put me up in police accommodation. So where
were you? What was your first posting? Um, it was Trowbridge.
Oh, so kind of not far from where you started life,
right? Yeah, exactly. So, um, I
joined that force, and so we moved there. And so when I used to visit
back home to visit my family, I would always go in plain clothes. Not
that I was particularly worried, but I didn't want to bring any attention to them
when I'm not there. So you're doing whatever it is, the
training. I don't know whether it was in Hendon in those days or it was
somewhere else. It was in a place called Champmal
in Dorset. So those forces around the south
and southeast used to go there. It used to be 14
weeks training. Okay. And
Suddenly you've got whatever they call it, your wings, your hat,
your lapels. Do you remember the first day on the
beat? Do you remember that feeling of either fear and excitement
or what? It was unusual. So, I had what used to have a
tutor constable for the first, I think, few weeks
before you went out. And there's a probationary period for 2 years.
And first day, you know, I'm into a
shift, there's not many new people. But my
sergeant was an old-school detective
sergeant who ended up back in uniform. Scary is scary,
and you can imagine, and everything was as he wanted it.
Yeah. Um, but I had a great team and, um, really welcoming,
really put me, um, you know, supported me. But the
sergeant was scary. And looking back in hindsight, I got to know
him later on in my career, and a lovely guy, really nice guy, but he
was actually I was kind of shy. I was kind of quiet,
which people find hard to believe nowadays. You know, although I lived in this
council estate, we didn't really get involved in all that nonsense
that my mates were and everything else. So he was toughening
me up for a town which was pretty tough in those days. And but a
great, great environment. My first day walking, because
that's what you did everywhere. Yeah. And I did for the first 2
3 years, 2 years, um, with the Chute Constable,
and we ended up getting my first arrest on my first day.
On your first day? Okay, well, you got to share that, I guess. It's an
important— It wasn't very exciting. Patrol in the town center,
and we ended up dealing with a shoplifter. Um, he actually,
he was fighting, which was unusual. So fighting with the people that were
trying to, to, um, arrest him? Yes. And so
Yeah, that was my first day, first arrest. And yeah,
it was nice. I was there with the tutor who guided me through
everything, to be honest with you, Gary. But it was nice to tick it off.
And sooner rather than later, some light bulb goes
either on or off in your mind and you make a decision to
do some pretty scary work. When and how does
that come about? I had some really good bosses, Gary, and
I think— and we get to— oh well, I say our age.
When you get older, you start to reflect a lot more. And how did that
happen? Why did that happen? And it sort of looked back and ago, I had
bosses that saw things in me that I didn't, if I'm honest. Okay,
that's fair enough. I got pushed into roles
that I didn't think I would have been prepared for, but I— it fitted.
Um, so I joined the drug squad initially after about
4 years in uniform. And that was more, this is what you need to
do, um, type, type of conversation rather than
a choice I, um, I made openly and by my own sort of
thing. And that taught me an awful lot. Again, great team,
learned an awful lot about the drugs markets, the drugs, and the whole—
and we were a force drug squad, so we traveled the whole force area dealing
with them. Small unit, but learned an awful lot.
And I was the youngest guy in that team, so I had a lot of
learning to do. These guys were, you know, had 10-plus years as detectives.
What was the most extraordinary or the most powerful thing
that you learned? And then, of course, it must be difficult to
separate what you've learned along a career of 30-plus years, Nick.
So, I'll forgive you if you can't remember. But
was there something at that time in the drug squad, particular time in the
UK, this is, This is what? This is 1980s.
So, not that it's not the case now, but lots of drugs
around, lots of peace, love, and hippiness. What struck
you about the time in the drug squad? The drug squad was a—
it was an eye-opener in the sense of the expanse of the problem
and how much drugs had influenced sort of the society and the
communities we were— I was walking around these areas in
uniform, And to some extent unknown to
what the issues were, you know? Right. And you see that sort of
connection between violence, connection with certainly
domestic abuse in the home, lack of
work, lack of opportunities, and then the drugs use.
You know, you always had alcohol there, but, you know, for me in the drug
squad, it was very much an eye-opener that the impact that drugs were actually
making on people's lives in the community. And that's an
interesting observation or just social commentary because
we know that everybody can get as high and as out there as they want
on alcohol legally. What is it that tips,
do you think, and maybe it's with the benefit of many more years, what
tips somebody from going out and getting completely
plastered on booze, but then deciding to use
drugs? That's such, so wide, Gary, because I see,
and I think it depends on your social environment.
So I've dealt with and engaged with people that survive
solely on drugs and their day-to-day functioning is drugs.
And to some extent, that's their normality. Whereas I've
dealt with people who will use the occasional
drugs, a lot of it. And, you know, generally that whole cocaine
environment. on social events, on parties or weekends and
stuff, and run a normal life during the week.
Right. So the impact is very different. Um, it's
easier to say wealth, but it's not necessarily always wealth,
'cause I've seen some really wealthy people that only function on drugs. So
it, there is no sort of one denominator factor. Yes.
I remember when my kids were, we were talking about kids in
schools in North London. And the reality, I'm sure this is the
reality in many other places, the
posher the school, the more drugs there were. So
it wasn't a case of better educated,
therefore more unlikely to do something silly. It was,
I've got access to that money, so why not go out and use it? I
don't know whether you found that. That and affordability.
comes into it, you know, it's often said, what do kids
do? You know, you know, what did we do? And when we were that age,
once you finish school and you're hanging around, there was very few opportunities. You know,
in my day, there were youth centers and things like that, if you chose to
go to them. And, you know, I did. Whereas a lot of people didn't have
anything, just sit around, become bored. And I see that
probably during the drug squad days, more in the smaller rural
environments, kids getting into trouble and not just
necessarily drugs, but just getting into trouble because they haven't got the
cinema up the road like you would do in a city or a town.
So I think there's a lot of factors. But yeah, an eye-opening
experience for me at that age. I was in my 20s, you know,
what was I then? Early 20s. Then at some
stage you transition. And
is it a gradual one? to UC work, which
has a whole— for me, as somebody now that's just
spoken to people like you over the last year or so, how
just mind-altering that experience can be. So,
was it again someone said, Nick, you would be brilliant as a UC
officer? So, I moved from the drug squad to what they used to have then
in the regional crime squads. I don't know if you remember those. They were sort
of cross-border investigation teams. Ah, I see. Okay. I
moved across to there for the south sort of
region, and we were just doing similar
serious organized crime, but we had all the bells and whistles in those days.
So, it was great. We were traveling across all boundaries and working,
and they housed the undercover world in those days. And
I got pulled in, and it was similar sort of things. You should be doing
this. And I'd only been there a few months, I
enjoyed being a detective. I enjoyed doing all this stuff, you know? And I
go, well, I'll think about it. You know, I've got a long career here. I'm
still in my, you know, still in my 20s then. And, um, oh, it takes
years, was the advice. Um, and actually, my boss
at the time, Neil, um, I'm actually having lunch with him, so I have
forgiven him. Um, I'm having lunch with him on Thursday. Neil
was the boss, and he called, and he was the one who called me, and
he went, it'll take at least 18 months to 2 years before you even get
on a the selection process. Fill the form in. So I filled
the form in. That was August, around August.
Um, I was on the course in January. Um,
and I was right head over, but I loved it. It was the— well, I
didn't love the course. The course was probably the worst thing I ever did. But—
Why? It's tough. It's mentally,
mainly mentally, but physically, but mainly mentally tough. Can you
give me a flavor without blowing it, without both you and I having to be
shot at dawn? Yeah, we're very protective of it because I later
went on to support the training in that. Yeah. Okay.
Toughness is about— it's not a course, it's not a training course, it's
an assessment course. Basically, you're put through scenario after
scenario and they're testing whether you can handle it.
And I think for me, going through it
There's lots of sleep deprivation because that's just a way to
get people to work under pressure. Yeah. You're put into
some very difficult situations. But I think that the key
thing is you're so involved that the—
it's not an exercise, it becomes reality in some sense because
all the role players are from that world. Yeah.
But they're not giving you any breaks, in other words. And I
remember people are dropping. The pass rate
was, I think in those days, around 25%.
And so there were people on the course, it's not, they only run a few
courses a year and they were dropping like flies. I didn't have a
clue whether I was doing well or not doing well,
because literally you come back into a classroom and there'll be one or two other
people not with you and they'd literally be told to go home. Was there an
event like, of course, you can't help but compare it to TV
programs where you get thrown into the back of a van
and somebody says, your cover's been blown,
now try and force you to give up your
cover, and you've just got to try and withstand it?
Yes, that's sort of part of the scenarios they do. It is
pressure point testing to where your weak
points are, if that's right. I suppose my character, I didn't know
if I was the right fit because you don't, like I say,
you don't get any feedback. You don't get any, um, you're doing all
right type of conversation. It's just relentless. It was only
until the final, uh, we finish on a
Thursday and you get called in and you're waiting and literally
people coming in, they'd been here weeks. And
you go, well, you got this far, so it'd be great. And I was
walking in, people going into the room and not coming back.
And some people who came back had passed and some people
we didn't see again. So was there one, again, with
usual kind of making sure we don't give away the crown
jewels, was there one endurance test where
you were sitting there thinking, I can't bloody well hack
this. It's just too much. If that's what life is about,
not really going to be able to do this? No, I think when I
put my mind to something, uh, that's it. I, you know, I don't do
things half. Um, you know, when I was there, I'm going on the courts, that's
it. I'm gonna give it all. And, um, you can opt to
leave, and people do. Um, the pressure is too much
and you just go, I need to get out. And I said, I'm not doing
that. Oh, they'll have to kick me out. Um, I'm gonna take it as far
as I can. If I fit the requirements, I do. If I don't, you
know, at least I gave it my best. Where do you take that stress though?
I mean, it's a— how long a course did you say? It's 40— That's
confidential, but it's a few weeks. Yeah. But where do you as an
individual take that stress? Do they
assign you a buddy that you can— no, you're on your own, Jack.
Yeah. I mean, leading up to this, remember, Gary, we had a
load of different assessments, interviews, psychological testing.
lots of other processes even before you get on the course. And so
they probably sifted out a lot of people through that
process. And then by the time you're there, you know, I, I
remember being on with guys who I thought were really good, you
know, and I thought, and they're, they're getting dropped. And it's a mind game as
well, you know. They, you just, you— I
walked into the room, as I said, and They actually said,
we're not sure. And I was, okay. And he said, he's too calm.
And I am a calm kind of person. And
he said, you've got everything, but you don't get rattled.
And I never have got rattled really. Well, my
wife and family and friends might argue with that, but I'm
generally a calm person. Yeah. But underneath
it's going crazy, you know? But I passed, and that was my
character. It just tended to be I'm all through my undercover
world. Do you remember the first time you were flying
solo and you were in a real life, not in a
simulated, but a real life UC? Do you remember the first one you
did and what were the emotions going through your brain at the time?
So what generally happens is after the
course, there's a progress Now, you do little
jobs, you support other experienced UCs,
and it's a growth process. You shouldn't be thrown into the
deep end because the learning still exists.
And I had a couple of small parts in the first,
literally in the first month of coming back off the course, which I
didn't expect. And then being very careful, then I
got asked to go and help a couple of guys who were in an infiltration.
Okay. And so, I went up there and
actually met the targets with them, and they liked me and wanted to see
more of me. So, I ended up being thrown into the deep end, into this
operation, which was, went on for quite a few months. But the other
2 UCs were good, seasoned detectives, you know, and I
absorbed their, what they were doing. I learned so much from them, and they were
really great mentors. So, in a way, Although it was thrown into
the deep end, I had a good net around me, and we ran that
job on and off for about a year. Did you never think,
oh, that's it, I'm blown, I'm never walking out of this alive? Did you
ever have that kind of feeling? Not on that operation,
but yeah. I mean, there's times when you get accused of being a cop,
get threatened, but that's where your, I suppose, training, that's where it
all kicks in. You know, this is what we do. And
I've had numerous times people accuse me of being a cop.
You remember, the type of criminals we're dealing with aren't generally
street dealers. They are seasoned organized criminals.
I see. And they'd been doing this for a long time. And generally, the people
around them have been around them for a long time. I think some of them
probably went to school with them. In fact, a lot of the guys we dealt
with, they went to school with each other. And then all of a sudden, someone
out of the blue sort of arrives on the scene. So, there's always an
element of suspicion, you know, and you've got to win them over. You've
got to, you know, overcome that. But there's always times that you're going to be
accused, threatened. I've had guns pointed at me. I've had all sorts of things
pointed at me, and it's— Tell us about that. Tell us about the first time
somebody pointed what you believed was a loaded gun at you. God, you put
me on the spot, Gary. So, I'd been doing a long-term infiltration. I
was one of the earlier people that were— got
involved in community infiltration. So infiltrations happen, you
infiltrate a crime group. But at that time, there was
parts of the country that there was so much going on,
the intelligence picture wasn't great. And so I was
deployed into the city, find out who's doing what,
and actually build an intelligence picture of going, right,
you can ignore these people. Right. We need to concentrate on this. So that was
the background. And they were very keen, they were eager, because
there'd been a lot of trouble in that region.
And so I went into there and I didn't do anything
for literally 6 months. And I was getting pressure from the organization saying,
and I went, no, they need to come to me. And, you know,
I had a persona. I looked very different, Gary.
And I look like a criminal in many ways than others.
And eventually they'll come to me. And it took about 6 months.
And during that earlier stage, they came over,
started chatting in bars, pubs, wherever we were, nightclubs,
and would say, come, let's have a drink. And I avoided them. And I went,
yeah, I will, and never turned up. And eventually, after 6 months, they
literally went, why don't you want to come and have a beer with us? And
so, All right, I will. 2, 3 years down the road,
that's what saved me. Because I'm in this middle of nowhere,
a few of the guys have turned up. We've been like, we've been working
for a couple of years now that I thought trusted me.
And, um, one of them comes up and says, you know, we think this is
who you are. And, um, and I was sort of like, I'm
in my persona at that time. was quite an angry, strong
guy, right? And, and I literally went, I went, who's saying
this? Which one of you is saying this? And then there's
all a little bit of, um, well, yeah, someone's saying this, and rumors
and everything else. And I went, you need to tell me who's saying this,
because remember, I didn't come looking for you. You fuckers came
looking for me. And that light bulb moment
in their heads of 2 years ago was, he's right,
he never, he never came to us. We were like, you know,
because I was in their eyes a criminal. And then they started
pointing fingers at each other, who said what, and eventually
a huge big apology, hugs and
drinks. And, and I went, you can't be doing this. But was that literally a
gun in your head? Yes. This is who we believe you are. Yeah.
Convince us otherwise. Yeah. Wow.
So that's where your, as you say, your training kicks in.
But also, do you start saying a few Hail Marys? Do you
actually think this could be your last breath on the earth, or you always
have confidence that you're going to get out of it? Well, there's only 2 ways
out of it, Gary, and there's, there's no worry, no point worrying about
what might be the worst-case scenario. It's going to happen if it's going to happen.
And as, and I think people, my wife will especially say
that. She always says I don't have any fear. Well, I do, but I
don't see fear in the same way as other people do. 'Cause I see it
as a risk and fear is an emotion. Risk is, you
can calculate risk, you can look at it, you can mitigate it, you can do
things. And so people say, say, oh, you
never look scared. And I don't, but it doesn't mean I don't feel scared.
It's just I process it differently. And And, you know, those sort of things have
happened to me over years and years. And you do become
a bit resilient. But, you know, the training is
good and that's why it's so tough. And that's why I
remember Neil was on your podcast. And that was the
era, you know, and we made it particularly tough because
people are going to be put in that position and they've got to come out
alive. And these were people that, because I don't know whether
the characters as it were,
increase in their intensity of criminality? So, will a gang
that is involved in drug supply, will they
inevitably be the kind of people that will kill as well? Or do they have
their own threshold of criminality that
they just don't cross? That would seem— I certainly looked at it on TV.
You would say that the top end are happy to kill people.
In my experience, it's not. It's the rogue street guys who are
more likely to kill you, you know, than
a top-end international drug smuggler or arms dealer.
Because a number of reasons is they didn't
get to the top of their tree without being smart.
And secondly, they've got a lot to lose if it
goes wrong and they get caught. Those are just 2
factors, whereas a street dealer-cum-gang
lad. It's either he doesn't have the awareness that this is
going to turn bad on him, and secondly, he's
got to show that he can hold his own. And that macho
ego type, I run the street, and this is how I
deal with it. So— It's more unpredictable. Yeah. You
can't necessarily put the two together
and go, okay, we'll be safer here because they're a low-level dealer. But
these guys that you were talking about just now would have
no qualms? Did you actually know they'd ever killed somebody before, or no
idea? At that point, they'd all been in prison for
different various types. And the actual guy who was
holding the gun had been in prison for attempted murder
and been out. And so, I wasn't in any
doubt that they would pull that trigger if I didn't get out of this right
or I didn't give them the right answers. Yeah. But that actually strengthened my
position in the crime group because after that happened,
no one was gonna question my loyalty and no one was gonna question my,
uh, who I was. And that sort of springboarded us into
bigger and greater results, if I, if I can say that. Yeah.
And one thing again that always fascinates the
non-police officer or, or someone involved in the
criminal justice system is how does a
UC draw that line between
facilitating a crime, assisting it,
abetting it? How do you, without again
exposing ourselves, how do you judge whether you're going to come
up and someone says, sorry, Nick, you should never have done
that. We're going to do you with the criminals. Yeah, no,
absolutely. And that's where, if I say there is training, The
agent provocateur element is the key. You know,
you can't, as an undercover officer, create a crime that's not already
existing. Right. So, you can
participate in criminality if you're authorized to do so.
And again, that's— you need to be authorized, but you can't create a crime.
You know, I can't come to you, Gary, and say, can you go and buy
me some coke? And it was the first time you've ever done it.
And that kind of divide,
agent provocateur, is still live and
kicking today. That's the line, and it's all down to
a whole bunch of circumstances as to whether or not
you've done more than you needed to do. It's the defense's
first call, oh, agent provocateur. But
as an undercover officer, and when you're working in the intelligence world,
You box all that off before you even go to the arrest, because
you know that's going to be the first defense. And so you need to make
sure the evidence and the intelligence shows that those crimes were being
committed prior to us getting involved. And there's methods and
ways we do that. And just rolling the tape forward for this
particular event, when you actually took the group
down, again, do you get that I'm
giving evidence behind a curtain kind of thing, or?
Do you get that angry young man, I'm going to get you,
blah, blah, blah? How did that end up? That one, because
it was an intelligence infiltration, I stepped away
before any arrests were made. So, I had an exit plan
set up before we started. So, as the operation was
coming to a conclusion, I was starting to
make the moves about moving away and new New paths, new
sort of chapter in my life type conversation. And
soon after, some time after I moved away, and the
actual activity, the police activity, the overt
activity took place. But don't— these guys are not
stupid. Well, some of them are, but a lot of them aren't. And they kind
of say, hold on, there's Bill, Fred, John, and Stephen are
in the nick with me. Where's that other chap gone? Yeah,
well, it was done well, put it that way. Because— Put it that way.
Yeah, because they wanted to maintain my
legend for further deployments. So there's methodology in
that, Gary, but it worked. And talking about legends, do you
have any idea, is it like you, you've taken on more legends than you
can remember, or are they really very— because of the
time it takes to embrace it and to live it? Like, I
only did 3 legends in my UC career. No, I was really
busy, partly because of the way I looked, you know, in, in
relative terms, an Indian undercover
officer, you know, there wasn't as many Indian
undercover officers as there were white guys, right?
So I was busy. And so I had a number of different
legends, I had a number of different operations running at the same time.
So you mean you have to swap? You had Legend 1 and
then suddenly the next day you're there with a completely different persona?
Yeah, because some of the jobs, you know, they, they're long-running. You don't need to
be there 24/7. You know, the longest one I did was
3 years and that was full-time. I lived it, I didn't come
home and everything else. And the other jobs are a lot shorter, you know.
Fascinating, fascinating. And In
terms of how do you deal with the
pressure of those kind of things? You can't go home.
I imagine it's pretty dangerous to go on a telephone, get in a
telephone or telephone box and call anyone.
You're under scrutiny 24/7. How do you deal with
that? That's just who you are, is it? No, you learn and it's not easy.
It is not easy. So in that particular operation, and you're
part of the crime group, or you're getting involved in the crime group. You're living
their lives. You're doing similar things to what they're doing. But
I did get home, you know, every few months. I would make sure I
got— had a sort of a plan that's saying I was going to be out
the city. Right. And, you know, guys,
really good mentors, good experienced UCs, used to— we used to
talk, you know, about your mental state, how you need to do things
differently. And one piece of advice, which I used to
do all the time, is we wouldn't go straight home because no
one knew who we were. Even the local— oh, well, local police
wouldn't know who we are. So, you know, we would be
targets of law enforcement as well. So, we had to
make sure we were clean before we brought everything back to the house. So,
what would mean take a 3-hour journey sometimes could take 5, 6 hours, 'cause
you need to make sure you're not being followed. So, but in that
process, I, well, piece of advice I was given, which
I took, um, and it worked for me, was I'm in nightclubs,
busy bars, and chaos all around, loud music. I
used to play classical music on the drive down in my car.
And at one point when it was all clear, I would make sure I
stopped, cleaned myself up, changed my clothes,
and went, went back into my normal world.
Cleansed, if that made sense. Yeah, it does. Makes perfect sense. You had
certain, as it were, kit
that defined the real you and you
just needed that. It's like putting on a hat or a raincoat.
Ah, that's my normal raincoat. Yeah. And
that helped. It's not the cure, but
you need to have that line between the two. You know, it was difficult because
very few people knew where I was, what I was doing. I, I literally disappeared
from my home force. And,
you know, my friends, my close friends, and I have a very small group of
close friends, certainly at that time, knew I was doing something
that wasn't spoken about, didn't actually know where or what,
but available for a beer when I was back, and which
wasn't very often. Right. Yeah. And what would you
say now to the young Nick Shah? You are the
Neil, or whoever it is you're seeing for lunch, who was the one that
guided you. What would you say tomorrow if you
were back in the force to a young Nick Shah who was saying, do you
know what, they're telling me, uh, Nick, that I could be really good?
Would you warn them off, or would you say, go with the force, my friend?
Well, I hope Neil's not going to watch this because I tease him now every
time I see him about how he pushed me and how terrible it was and
traumatic. But actually, I loved it. I loved it. It taught me so
much. I thought I was a good detective
before, but when you actually live that world involved
and, you know, in that criminal environment, you
learn so much about criminality. You learn so much about criminals. And
That made me a better detective, undoubtedly, as I went on in the
future. It also made me a different type of person, you know?
I wasn't that shy kid walking the streets in that
town all those years ago, and now I became a different character. So,
I guess the answer is you would say, go for it. If that's what your
heart wants to do, go for it. Go for it. But there
are all the emotional, mental, and
stress elements. You need to be aware of that. That's, you know, this is not
a, it's not a game. But also, you know, domestically it
has a huge impact. For nearly 10 years, you know, I was
on and off hardly. Absolutely. So, so what
would you say to that young Nick Shah? And he said, okay,
big Nick, what was the price you paid? You look like a completely
normal dude. You know, don't pull my leg. What was the price
you paid for that work? Or what did your family— what was the price
your family paid for you being in that work? Not seeing me,
not being about, um, not getting promoted,
um, because when you go in there, you, you know, there's—
you're just in that world. Um, so I didn't get promoted
until after I left many years later. But the isolation, and
I missed so many events, you know, birthdays, parties,
weddings. You know, at that time, although I knew my wife, I wasn't— we
weren't married. And, um, she was used to my
absences, let's put it that way, for many years. So when we did get
married, I moved on to another job which took me away a lot.
Um, so to her it was, this is what he does. But
it takes a special kind of person to, um, accept that. You know,
the amount of birth— my— we had kids when in the other role that I
played later on, and I was absent.
Okay. Let me be really wicked, but in a pleasant way and say,
if I had your kids and your wife in
the next room, Graham Norton style, and I said, right, come on in now,
would they say it was worth it? Or would they say they and you
paid too high a price? That's a tough one.
I think they got used to it. And that's partly— there's a further
story maybe for the future, but I was working on the anti-kidnap
unit. And yeah, I haven't even mentioned that, so I've got to say something about
that before you leave. Fast forward many years later, and I'm on the
anti-kidnap unit. We're dealing with kidnaps all over the world, and with
kids then, and we're married. And, um, my kids never knew anything
of what I did. They knew nothing about my UC world or my, um,
kidnap world. They were, must have been about 6, 7, 8.
And it was only until many years later near my retirement
that it came out because of certain things, um, you know,
coming to the end of my service and, um, getting some awards
that I had to sit them down and tell them. So they became so used
to dad's always away, you know. Yeah. Sarah worked
and she juggled, um, both the kids and the house life. But
your wife knew what you were doing, right? She had to know how
dangerous this was. She knew that what I
did, she didn't know what I was doing. And she didn't know where I was.
And certainly in the kidnap world, you know, it would be a drop of a
hat. There's something happened and I'm on the next plane out to
somewhere. But the thing is, she didn't know when I'll be back. You know, sometimes
it'll be 5 days. I've been away for 3 months before. And
so, That's weird. We've
got to end up with a scary kidnap
story to close out the first stage because I've got
like 4 extra pages here that I haven't even touched on
it. But I mean, these are 2 big phrases, UC,
kidnap extortion. A story please that
is either the scariest time you were ever involved in it or the
most Or a screw-up? Everybody likes to hear, oh my
God, like Neil Giles told me, he turns up and everyone's chasing
him because they think he's got the drugs or whatever.
So, give us a story during that time. I
suppose not a screw-up, how
difficult these can be. Try and make a very long story very short. So, we
have a kidnap of a UK national. This is in the
public domain, so tell you about it without telling you names,
but an NGO working in Sudan— Okay.
Was taken. At that time, we didn't— the West didn't have a very good
relationship with Sudan politically. And I came back from
holiday and my boss called me again. We got a COBRA meeting
at 4 o'clock. So, we go to COBRA where this has been
discussed and comes out someone needs to
go. And I'm, yeah, I agree. And then everyone's looking at me
and I'm going, I didn't expect that bit. Um, so anyway, I'm
told 5 days, you know, go and explore, see what the land lies, see
what we can do. Anyway, that's therefore, I think, about 6 weeks plus.
Wow. Because we got there and it's about perception. And I
suppose everyone's telling me no one's gonna help, no one, they
don't like us, you know, politically, you know, the West are not
great, the UK have issues with president or prime minister
about the ICC and everything else. So, what I
found is when you actually go and talk to people face-to-face, and I've found that
throughout my whole career, even as a UC, if you can relate to people,
you can get them to do what you want. Not in a nasty way, but—
Bring it together, baby, as they say in the movies.
Right. So, we talked to government officials, we talked to ministers, and then I
fly out to Darfur. in Sudan where he's been held. Yeah.
And I end up talking to villagers and I end up talking to
village chiefs. And do you know what? They were the ones who got him back
because talking to them, explaining he's an NGO, he's here to help you, and all
the factors. There's no money. We're a UK, British government. We don't pay for
hostages released, you know? So it was all negotiations.
And they came around, they influenced the rebels that had taken him
because they all know each other. They influenced him. And then he was
released. He was there 86 days in total,
and I was able to fly him out. And that was the
first time I think, A, I flew out the hostage, because normally when our work
is done, we're done. But it was Sudan, so it was difficult to get flights
out. Right. We were on the same flight out, and I met
them back in the UK. He met— I took him to his family. And
again, we don't do that. We normally disappear into the shadows when our work's
done. And I think I was probably more emotionally
impacted by his reaction with his family. By the reunion?
Yeah. And I don't often have a tear,
but I could probably admit that I thought, yeah, I'm pleased. And it was a
nice feeling. And then obviously I went back to doing what I normally do and
get on with it. But yeah. It's a lovely ending to the
most enjoyable session, Nick. And as I said, I've got so
many more questions to ask you, and I know you've got
stories galore stuck in that mind of yours.
So can I just say thank you, namaste,
for such a really entertaining
and enjoyable session? And I hope I can entice you back on
in the not too distant future. Thank you, Gary. It's been quite
cathartic because I don't often speak, but thank you for inviting me. Take
care. Bye, mate. Bye. Thank you for listening,
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