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Church is messy podcast recorded at Autumn Ridge Church in Rochester, MN
CIM-10-07-26-expedition-ready-Discovering Ep154
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Svea: Good morning, Rick. We're back with Church Is Messy, and I'm so excited to be back. I've been away for the last week. And, we had to, adjust our recording schedule a little bit for that, but now we're back into our routine. Here
Rick: we are. And- And, people can see us. I believe that we are on-
video, which feels weird, but here we go.
Svea: We're adding the option. Let's... Huh? We're adding the option. We're
Rick: adding the option. And
Svea: yet- I, like po- ... no real change to the audio version ... I like
Rick: audio only on podcasts.
Svea: Yeah, I listen in the car,
Rick: Yeah. That's right. That's right. Not a good idea to watch and drive.
So did you have a good trip? Generally thumb You were in a beautiful place.
Svea: I think possibly the most beautiful place on Earth.
Rick: Hit us with, Hit us with a wildlife story. You know that I'm a big fan- Yeah ...
Svea: of the wildlife. So we were in, in Banff- in Banff National Park in the Canadian Rockies, which was...
Okay, this was the sweetest thing. So this is where Steve and I honeymooned, and this was our 20th anniversary, so we got to go back and redo our honeymoon.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: The, the lodge that we stayed at even gave us the same room- No
Rick: way ...
Svea: that we were. So it was just, like- That's pretty cool ... full of memories- Yeah
and such an amazing time to just reflect on God's faithfulness to us over these- Okay ... 20 years- yeah ... and all of the life we'd been through. but we spent our days, slow mornings reading books, drinking coffee, all of that, and then we'd get dressed and go out for these long hikes, and we did see some amazing wildlife.
Rick: I know that there's a lot of elk there. Did you hear any elk bugling?
Svea: We did hear- Oh, my goodness ... one. I love that. Yep. Oh. We saw some does. Love it. Yeah. There were some does lying down, right by our lodge. Okay. I was, like, feet away from it. Okay. Making Steve a little bit nervous. Okay. But we got some pretty epic pictures.
Rick: Good.
Svea: We went hiking with coyotes that just, trotted along with us. Made us both a little nervous there. You were,
Rick: in a Disney movie or something.
Svea: It kinda felt that way. Yeah.
Rick: Okay. Yeah. All right.
Svea: Brad. it was amazing. The only thing that, that, that drew away the awesomeness of the whole thing, I did come down with COVID about halfway through, but, you know- Are you
Rick: all good now?
Svea: I'm all good now. Turns
Rick: out- We will disinfect your microphone after this.
Svea: Probably not a stupid idea. But, being on a vacation where the whole plan was to be outside walking around- that's pretty COVID compatible. Probably did... Yeah. So
Rick: it didn't- That's good. That's awesome. I'm glad you're back.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: Are you ready to dive into- I am ... week two, which is stage one of the spiritual formation journey?
Svea: We, we did a little, mental gymnastics- Yeah ... on ourselves by planning this series where we're doing numbered stages- but the numbers of the series is off from
Rick: the stages. I'm not exactly sure that I know where someone's spiritual formation journey begins.
Maybe it's, maybe it begins at birth, It's just, it's a part of your whole life. But there is a point, there is a point where people become awake to the fact. They realize, "God has been pursuing me."
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: He's... "I'm not the one who started this. He made the first move."
Svea: Yeah. So that's such a hallmark of the discovery phase- is realizing that God has been pursuing us- Yeah ... all along. Yeah. That He's not just, sitting back in heaven with his arms folded waiting for us to get it together- It's
Rick: not
Svea: a- ... or figure it out ...
Rick: it's not like a divine hide and go seek. I wonder if they'll find me. Yeah. He's out looking for us.
Svea: Yeah. that's beautiful.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: I do want us to dive into the discovery phase, but first I thought I've got some would you rather questions for you.
Rick: Ooh, yeah. Let's start there. '
Svea: Cause you started the message that way. Yeah. Yeah, And it got me thinking- Okay ... and because I have hiking and the theme of- this series is this expedition series, so I wanna know, would you rather, if you're out on a hike, come face to face with a moose or with a bear?
Rick: Ooh, that's a good one. That's a really good one. I'm gonna say moose. I love moose. I had a, I had a pretty epic- You, that's happened to you, right?
moose encounter before, and I've had encounters with both grizzly and black bear. I just, I, oh, I'm in love with moose, though.
Svea: They are pretty cool. Yeah. I've never seen one- Yeah ... outside of the zoo.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: But someday I hope to. Okay, would you rather be lost on a long hike without any shoes or without any water?
Rick: Without any water.
Svea: Are you like a Bear Grylls kind of guy? You'd figure out how to drink something out of your
Rick: shoe? I might be able to, I might be able to find water, but, feet are so incredibly important. And, if you... So I spend, hours outdoors right now a lot, and really the, one of the first things I'm thinking about are my feet and, whether or not my feet are comfortable, whether or not my feet are dry, whether or not my feet are warm.
Because as soon as that goes, it becomes miserable, so I think I could endure longer with comfortable, warm, dry feet than, I could with water but, feeling pretty uncomfortable.
Svea: Okay.
Rick: That's why.
Svea: That's, a reasonable answer.
people live without feet. They generally don't live without water, but-
Rick: Yeah
Svea: I suppose.
Rick: All right. Okay. I want you- If you're
Svea: thinking about this- Listen ... in terms of comfort- I
Rick: want you to wait for, a cold morning, and I want you to go out without, without any shoes on- Oh, I- ... and see how long you
Svea: last ... I hear you. No, I hear you. Okay, let's get a little bit more serious here. Okay.
So would you rather have Jesus tell you what to do today or tell you where He's going to take you five years fr- From now.
Rick: Five years from now.
Svea: Really?
Rick: Yeah. I just wanna know the direction. I wanna know the direction that I'm moving in.
Svea: Yeah?
Rick: And, see, if he tells me what to do today, then tomorrow I don't have anything.
But if I know the direction we're moving, then, I think that I have, I have something that helps me understand how to take wiser, smarter steps right now.
Svea: Okay.
Rick: That's my thought. What about you?
Svea: I can see the logic in that.
Rick: You wanna know what to do today, or- I'd
Svea: be the opposite.
Rick: Okay.
Svea: Yeah. I would rather live in the moment.
I think 'cause my life has taken so many different- unpredictable twists and turns. Yeah. I almost wouldn't wanna know what's- Yeah ... coming in five years, 'cause it might not be what I would choose. So I'd rather just live feeling like I'm- Wow ... being faithful in the moment. I
Rick: didn't know you were gonna answer that so wrong.
Svea: it's okay for us to be different, is it?
Rick: Yeah. We're totally different. We calculate trade-offs differently. We're wired differently. It's totally fine.
Svea: Yeah.
Okay. Would you rather be Hagar or the woman at the well? Would you rather be the one that Jesus-
Rick: Man ...
Svea: sees, or the one that got seen through?
Rick: Oh, man. I, the way that I'm wired, if I, would rather, be noticed and feel like I am the, I'm the recipient of, real kind of robust, rugged empathy instead of someone just seeing through me and pegging me. Yeah. Yeah. But both are good, especially when it's coming from someone who's trustworthy and full of love.
Svea: These two stories- I think were so amazing, and I've never heard a message before that brought these two stories together.
Rick: That is a, Okay, heresy alarm's going off. First time, you never wanna be- ... a pastor's the first person to ever say something.
Svea: No, I just, I enjoyed the, the match-up-
Rick: Yeah
Svea: of these two Bible characters. So- And the... 'Cause there's some parallels in their stories, and there's some, some very big differences in their stories- Oh, sure ... too. Yeah. But there's this beautiful theme of Jesus moving towards both of them. And I love how you used them to illustrate both of these people in this discovery stage- Absolutely
about Jesus.
Rick: Yeah, So I, think from the perspective of the New Testament, seeing everything through the lens of Jesus, I just, I'm drawn to wanting to, see them together. Not just because some of the tangible characteristics, like, in a hot, arid desert and by a spring, on a hot, day in an arid place by a well, and, two people who are on the fringes for different reasons.
but it's just, it's the, how God is so keenly aware of people, and he's moving towards people, and it, the things that are not included in this, like no shame, no judgment, no conditional- acceptance. It is just grace and purpose and promise. there's so much more that we can get into with both of these ladies if we were to, dig more into the, story of, the Samaritan woman.
She goes back, and she tells her village, and then they all come out, and they beg Jesus to stay. And, they're like, "Oh, my goodness," "we first believed to this woman, who we don't know her name, because of what you told us, but now we believe because we've experienced Jesus ourselves." So there's, something significant going on.
And then I also wanna connect it to something that we see later in Acts. You've got Philip, who, he's, the Holy Spirit basically tells him, "I need you to go and preach the gospel to this guy from Ethiopia." "And I'm, I need you to go here and meet him." But where was he? He was in Samaria. There's, this big thing going down.
It's, this big gospel celebration, and lots of people are coming, and I can't help but wonder, did that all start with that woman? is she just, like- sowing seeds and inviting people to her, house and telling them about what's going on and, what started with ... And then other people who follow Jesus that it's just, they are ready.
That's beautiful. And it's just, it's explosive.
And it just started with Jesus. He didn't just, come and find her. He was waiting for her- Yeah ... 'cause He knew that she was gonna be there that day, and the, ripple effect of that encounter, to me, is astounding, and I feel like I kinda robbed the congregation this weekend of trying to
one, I do think it's good to put these two stories together, but there's not enough time to trace out all the implications- Sure ... of it, and oh, so I'm glad we get to do this. Yeah. We get to talk about it a little bit.
Svea: Yeah. let's keep going with that, and I'd love as, because the theme of this series is walking through these different stages of the- spiritual life, to look at the discovery stage, and what more do we see in these two characters that helps us wrap our minds around what Jesus is doing in the discovery stage?
Rick: Tell me a little bit more.
Svea: y- obviously the element of Jesus is pursuing us.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: And He's, wanting a relationship with us- and in this discovery phase, it's when we're finally beginning to realize- that He has been inviting us into a relationship, that He wants relationship with us.
Rick: He's been working through relationships. He's been working in circumstances. He's been doing things in our life, and maybe we didn't realize it before, but now it is, there's, there comes a moment where it is inescapable.
It's undeniable.
We can't r- we, can't deny it to ourselves. We're just like, "Yeah, here He is. He's chasing me."
Svea: But say a little bit more ab- even about, what He's doing in that moment. you mentioned- riff a little bit on, how He wasn't throwing their past in their face.
Rick: No.
Svea: No, He wasn't, like, making them account for every choice they'd ever made.
Rick: He's honest and straightforward, but there's no spectacle, right? It's like this is, where y- this is where you are. And, there is ... you could say, "Hey, listen, you've had, five husbands, and the guy you're, with now, you're not married to."
Or you could say, "You have had five husbands, and now you're living with someone you're not even married to."
You s- you could say the exact same words, but the way it lands and what's being communicated and what's not being communicated and the way that the person wants you to feel about it and all is very different, right?
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: And Jesus is a... let's be honest. truth is important, our past matters, what he desires for us matter. All of those things are important, but he is not, like, rubbing our nose in it, and yet he does want us to be honest. He's gonna be honest with us. He wants us to be honest with him. He wants us to be honest with ourselves.
It's so when we do that, we see how good the life is that he's offering. we see how satisfying this to... Let's use the language, the, the metaphorical language that Jesus used, living water. That it is just, it satisfies your thirst, and it, not only do you receive it and it becomes something that satisfies you, you become the well.
It springs up in you- as a well of eternal life. Jesus is a well, and he makes you a well, and then you go around and you help other people discover that their deep down longings truly can be met and fulfilled. That's amazing.
That's, again, I, feel like we robbed the congregation. Didn't have time to draw all of that out.
But you see that play out in this woman's life in the way that other people are impacted. It's, so it is, it is- transformative. It is not simply I thought I was alone, or I thought I wasn't seen, or I was pushed to the edge, or I'm just kinda doing my best. maybe the, the Samaritan woman, if we got to know her name, maybe if she was here and, she would say, I was a fake it till you make it.
I was just, trying to figure it out. I was just doing my best and sometimes just putting on a brave face. I'm just, trudging through." And then all of the sudden I discovered that there is a totally different way to live that I never could have imagined, and it was given to me by someone who I didn't even know existed and had no clue that he knew that I existed or that he would ever be looking for me, but he came and he found me and he gave me this.
And it has ... It hasn't just let me know that I'm loved. It is not just this incredible deposit of grace. It has changed the path that I'm walking on. It has changed what I'm pursuing. It has changed what I'm living for. I know the map and the destination, and that's my life now.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: It's profound.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: And so someone's who is, in the discovery stage is someone who is just, they are now awake to that. I talked about, a guy that I met on Saturday night, and he was just ... He was over the moon. He was just so excited. joy was just beaming out of his face as he was talking about his past and that he was an atheist, and then sometime 11 months ago he became awake to the fact that God was pursuing him.
And now he is amazed by the joy and the freedom that he finds in obeying Jesus. Because he's like, "That's my leader and I'm following him, and he's leading in- me into a better life than I ever could have imagined."
Certainly better one than I, could have secured for myself. And yeah, that
those are some of the hallmarks of the discovery phase.
Svea: it seems, like the parallel of a bit like a honeymoon phase- with, God of just this incredible realization of this, the joy of this new relationship- and, so much potential and- yeah ... and excitement in there. obviously, the discovery stage is the first stage in the spiritual journey, but what do you think?
Do you think it's something that is only for new believers, or do you think that there can be echoes of a discovery stage for those of us who have been walking with Jesus for a longer time?
Rick: Yeah. I- one of the things that I hope that we make clear is that we never leave any of these stages behind. we're bringing them all with us.
And so this next week we're gonna be talking about learning. There is a difference between learning and, dis- and discovery, and hopefully, we can clarify those two things. But in the discovery, it is like you've n- it's like you've been blind and now you can see. It's like you were dead and now you're alive.
It's like you couldn't breathe and you take your first breath. It is, it, is this powerful moment of awakening and realization, right? It's... And I think we have those kinds of things all throughout our journey with Jesus. And like we said in the beginning, I'm not exactly sure that I know when the spiritual formation journey begins.
It probably, I think, if you really pressed me on it, I'd say it probably begins at birth. It's a, whole life. Whether you actually end up with Jesus and following Jesus, I don't know. It's gonna be different for, different people, but at the discovery, that's where the journey begins with Jesus, for sure.
and but all along, there are times that I feel it's not like I just learned something. It's I discovered- Jesus truly is grace, and I see it in profound ways that I couldn't understand years ago.
Svea: Sure.
Rick: But now, I see it in, new ways. I see how patient he is with me. I see how kind he is with me.
I see... I feel like, oh, I thought I knew how he saw people, but now I see how he sees people. And then 10 years from now, I'm gonna think, "Rick, your, view back then was so small."
Svea: Yeah. "
Rick: But your eyes were just beginning to open."
Svea: Yeah. and I think the idea that God is pursuing us- and that is just as relevant for us after we've been a believer for a long time- as it was in the very beginning, too. Yeah. And that some of these later discoveries in our life oftentimes aren't because we finally, figured it out- or did the mental calculus to, to- rationalize our faith or something, but because God is pursuing us- and he's giving us something new that we're- finally ready- Yeah ... to begin to see.
Rick: So let's use some of the language that we started with in week one. Okay. the Apostle Paul, "Work out your salvation," and I said that's, the term that he used is a term that's often used with mining. Keep digging. keep drawing out. And, you think you get to...
in life, there are false summits. You're like, "If I can just get to this- then I've arrived," and then you're like, "Oh, my goodness. You mean there's more to this?" It's like maybe you're putting together IKEA furniture, and then you realize- ... no, this isn't the last page. It was, there's some pages stuck together.
No, I've got, three more hours worth. Yeah. So that's horrible. false summit is the... Fa- false summit is a bad experience. But maybe there's, a false floor, where you're, digging out, and you're like, "I think we got it all." And then you discover, no, there's a, whole nother cavern- beneath this. there's, a whole nother realm of, richness and treasure. And I, think we, experience those kinds of moments- all throughout our life because His goodness, His richness, His grace, His love, His holiness, all of it is, truly limitless.
He is infinite in all of who He is.
Svea: Linger for a moment with me in this idea of God pursuing us and the implications that's there for someone who's maybe exploring their faith, and then I wanna go to the implications of that for us that have been walking with Jesus- Yeah ... for a little bit longer.
Rick: Yeah. For if you are exploring faith, if you're someone, you've got questions, and you're curious, and you're skeptical, you don't sh- yet share the same kind of conclusions that I share.
That makes sense, right?
But would you allow yourself to think about, would you allow yourself to be comforted by the idea that on this journey that feels uncertain, that you're not alone? And I don't just mean that there are other people that share the same questions you have, but both the one who is the map and the destination is in your corner, is, following you, is, chasing you, is pursuing you, is wanting you, is, desiring you, and is holding out goodness for you.
And so he's not hiding, hoping that you're smart enough to figure it out, and we'll see if you pass the test. It's he is at work in your life, and he's there in ways that you may not have even totally realized yet, and he is trying to help you see the life that is truly life that's found in him.
And so wouldn't it feel comforting to know that if you were on a journey that you're not by yourself? Could you hold out the possibility, that's available to you, that this isn't, this is not merely an existential/intellectual personal exercise that you're on? but there is... But you're not alone in a way that's far beyond what those, words alone can contain.
Svea: Yeah, that's beautiful
That we can't always see or detect it But just the fact that we maybe aren't feeling His presence there doesn't mean He's not there
And, we, at least, I'll speak for myself, I've had- the experience multiple times where I feel at times like God is maybe distant
Rick: Yeah
Svea: And I'm trying to see what He's doing, and it's not until a little bit later- Yeah
where something changes and I realize, oh, He was at work doing this. He brought this person into my life. He gave me this- We- ... this book when- Yeah ... I needed it, and realize, yep, He was there all along. I just didn't have eyes to see it yet
Rick: We've heard countless stories. I've heard countless stories in my life of, people sharing that sort of thing, and I've got my own stories like that.
That's why I like to say it's easier to see what God's doing in the rear view mirror than through the windshield. As we look back at, ah, it makes sense. I just, I'm just not the person that has the foresight, the intelligence, the whatever, to be able to, see it in advance or while it's happening. It tends to make sense more looking backwards
Svea: So it's probably easier for us to, think about the discovery phase through our own experience.
but let's talk a little bit about, the people that we know and care about that are not yet believers in Jesus. Sure. And we just want- Yeah. I've got those
Rick: friends,
Svea: yeah ... them to come to faith. Yeah. And, we're praying for them. We're aching for them- Yeah ... to discover the truth about God how does this idea of God pursuing them, how should this maybe frame the way that we're thinking about the people that we're wanting to come to faith?
Rick: There are two things that come to mind immediately for me. there probably should be more things that are part of the conversation, but there are two things that come to mind immediately, in no particular order.
The first one is, I don't have to force anything.
If God is pursuing them, I l- listen, I can trust Him more than I trust me. I can trust Him with, everything, and so it's not, my job to get someone to the destination. It's not my job to get someone across, the starting line of faith.
My responsibility is to share with them what my journey has been. My responsibility is to share with them what I've experienced, what I've seen, what I know. my kind of attempt at pithy, pastoral way to say this is not my job to convince you. It's my job to share with you what convinced me, and, that's what other people did for me, and I want to do that for other people.
So God's at work. And so this rolls into the, to the second thing, and I want to say it in a way that I learned from, others. We, go over this in the, witness practice class, so I'd encourage people to take this. It's- Listen, we're not starting a spiritual conversation with someone, we're joining a conversation that God has already been having in their life.
And so we didn't start this. If God's the pursuer, he started it with them. We didn't start it with them, and we are now just the, the new person who's popping into the chat, while they're already on this journey, and God's already beginning to, to work. There's
Svea: a lot of peace in that.
Rick: I hope so.
Yeah. I really, hope so. And not passiveness.
Peace. Yeah. That's a b- that's a, big distinction. how would you unpack the difference between having peace in this process while not being passive in the process of wanting others to discover Jesus?
Svea: Sure. I don't understand why, but God in his wisdom has decided that he wants to use us- to spread the gospel- to share the message, to be his witnesses. I'm sure he could have, if he wanted to, just snap his fingers and- Yeah ... people would believe or they don't believe. Yeah. And, and I don't know how it works, but yeah, he does wanna use us, so- I agree.
We're not supposed to be passive. There is a responsibility for us to share. But I take so much comfort in remembering that it's not all on my shoulders.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: Like, all I have to do is be responsible to what I feel like God is asking me to do- to share, to speak truth- to love, to represent Jesus well.
But the way that the other person responds is not up to me. And the way that they finally, come to know God-
is, not up to me, and it's not even always up to them. It's also up to God and the work- That's right ... that he's at work- That's right ... in their life. Yeah. And, and so just ascribing responsibility where it's ultimately due is, I think, so important.
Rick: Yeah. Love it. Absolutely love it. I don't know if this fits, but I'm just gonna talk and-
Svea: Okay ...
Rick: maybe this could be edited out- Let's see where you go ... if this is not, if this, is not helpful. But I love it when I find out that my son or my daughter, that they were processing something and they called each other first.
Or one popped into the other's bedroom, where they both happened to be home at the same time, to talk about it first, and then they let us in on it later. And, I feel just a great sense of warmth and joy and love and peace in our home when I see that relationship playing out between the two of them.
And I've talked about, I think, before how I just, Heather and I both love it, like in the middle of the night when we kinda feel woken up by we hear the kids, they're home from whatever, and they're in the kitchen making a snack, and they're just together. So it's like I don't, we didn't have kids just simply because we wanted to have a relationship with them.
When you have more than one kid, you want them to have a relationship with each other, and that is just like the tiniest- Yeah ... incomplete analogy of how, why does God wanna use us? I- Maybe something similar to that-
Svea: Yeah ...
Rick: is that he loves it when we love each other- I see where you're going with that ... and we serve each other, and does that make sense?
Svea: There is some beautiful parental- Can it stay on
Rick: the podcast? Does that have to be edited out?
Svea: I, think we can keep that,
Rick: yeah. Okay. All right. All right.
Svea: No, that's beautiful. There is some parental pride- Yeah ... in watching your kids working together and- Yeah ... and, Yeah ... and enjoying the relationship that they have with each other.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: Yeah, maybe that is. I like, that view.
Rick: Sure. Yeah.
Svea: Yeah. So let's just wrap up with this. Let's talk a little bit more about the discovery phase. We, we touched on the realization of God pursuing us. We talked a little bit about the joy that's in this, the, the freedom from, I've got this new way of life now.
what, what kind of, as we move through maturity in the discovering phase and start to move towards learning- what, what might be some of the, the signposts along the way?
Rick: That we're ready to move into learning? I think immediately I, God is real. He's good. He wants me. there's a relationship available for me with God through Jesus.
and so now I need to know what that means. Now I need to know how do I, live in that? How do I need to take, how do I need to take my next step? And so I don't know that there's a... I, listen, people move at the speed that they, move at. But as soon as you begin to realize that, it's I want to know more about him, and I want to know more about this life, and I, want to know w- what have other people already learned that I haven't learned, and what are they experiencing that's available for me to exper- So I, think it's just, I think once you're there, it's time to, okay, let me- Let me learn.
Let me discover
Svea: Are there some signs that if someone gets stalled out in this process?
Rick: In the discovery- process? Svea, you might do a better job of, talking about this than, than I do. You've, spent just as much time, if not more, kind of understanding, these, these stages.
But I would hate for someone to get stalled out on, this kind of this sense of spiritual awareness-
but nothing more.
Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah.
Svea: I, think you're touching on something important. I think- Okay ... I think we see when people get stuck in this stage, they tend to stay in the realm of, "I'm just a spiritual person."
And they don't develop their relationship- Yeah ... with Jesus- Yeah ... and the true person that He is.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: I think they also tend to chase the emotion.
And that's, a- Yeah ... a really intoxicating part of this phase.
Rick: Yes.
Svea: but their faith becomes- Yes. Yes ... a little bit emotion driven-
Rick: Yeah ...
Svea: of, just chasing the high- of feeling like they've got God's presence with them- in a way that they can finally-
Rick: Yeah ...
Svea: realize in a real way.
Yeah,
and, and when, just like with all relationships- as that emotion ebbs and flows- that can destabilize their faith a little bit if they're stuck here. Yeah.
And I think that's one of the reasons why moving towards the learning phase is so- important because- Yeah ... it helps to undergird the foundation of our faith with some truth- not just the, the excitement and the- emotion that comes in the beginning stage.
Rick: Yeah. I think I had a professor in college who described it as ignorance on fire.
You just, y- you feel so energized, but you're clueless.
Because, 'cause you haven't learned yet. And so what do we need to, what do we need to know? What do we need to learn? And wouldn't it be tragic to discover that the God of the universe sees you and knows you and wants a relationship with you and wants to offer you new life, and you receive it, and yet you are living in a way that dishonors Him, and you discover it later?
Wouldn't you be like, "Why didn't anybody ever tell me?" All right, let me give you, let me give you an example. Have you ever, given somebody, a gift and discovered, they're allergic to the thing- that you give them? Does it... It's like, "Oh, I wish I would have known."
Svea: I did that the first time- Yeah ... when you guys were first here, and I came over to your house, and I baked your wife some chocolate chip cookies, not knowing that she's gluten free.
Rick: Oh, yeah. Okay. I'm like, "Ugh." You just didn't know. I didn't know. You just didn't know. And okay, it's one thing to say, "I acted out of ignorance.
I didn't know. There, wasn't really a way for me to know yet." No, okay, that's life. We, all do that. But now, okay- Now that you are aware, you don't know what you don't know, but now you're like, "Okay, is there something that I don't know? And what is that thing? Because I don't wanna repeat that. I don't, wanna, I don't wanna do that, I don't wanna do that again."
that's because you care. That's because you love. It's because you're grateful. It's yeah, it's totally appropriate. And we certainly wanna, don't wanna do that sort of thing with God. I never knew that, that God, that this would dishonor you. and now that I know, oh, I never wanna do that. I never wanna do that again.
Svea: So as we've been saying- we don't move completely out of these phases. We build on these phases. Yes. We take elements of these- phases with us throughout our faith journey. yet what we focus on in the different phases may be different. So as we've moved into later stages, we might not be focused on the same realization that God is- pursuing us or- Yeah ... or the excitement of- Yeah ... of having a new relationship with him. Yeah. And yet for people who are in later stages and we reflect back on the discovering phase- what are some things that can even just help us remember our first love? like in Revelation, it talked about the Ephesian church needing to remember the first love they had, when that church was in the discovering phase with Jesus.
Rick: I think Paul gives us a great example of this. He, never forgot what his life was like before Jesus, and he remembered that, and he, held onto that, and he, talked, about that. if... I got, I became a follower of Jesus when I was nine years old. Now, that faith formed and developed, and I had, a pretty profound moment when I was in college.
But, I had a buddy who used to be a, he was a, he was in the mafia, and he was a drug dealer and, and he had a radical conversion later in life, and he was like, "Rick, you ought to tell people that you were saved from drugs and gangs and stuff- ... because God kept you from ever experiencing that 'cause you were saved so young."
And I was like- "All right, Matt. Cool, man." And, but- I
Svea: need to hear more about this friendship.
Rick: I'll tell, you about that story. That was a story. sometime- Okay. All right, so listen. He, he was using too much of his product, and he had a big debt, and his boss told him, "You need to leave town for a year, get clean, and come back, or I could break your legs."
Oh. And so he- Okay ... went to a moderately sized town in southern Alabama, and he picked a church to go to because he was trying to, he was trying to pick up girls. And so he went to this church, and he heard a guy named Harold Hunter preach, and it just, wrecked him, and he, ran down. This is, one of those churches where, they do something called altar calls, like- Yeah
"Hey, if you wanna follow Jesus, come down front and talk to me right now." And he, ran. He didn't even understand what was happening. He just ran down front, and, he's "I wanna follow Jesus." And he was too... In the same way that he was all in on that previous lifestyle, he was all in and following Jesus.
Wow. And he was just... Just a cool guy and a friend and, fun to, watch his journey play out over a number of years. Anyway, I'm, I'm- I'm following a rabbit trail here. I don't even remember what the, conversation was. Oh, the question was, how do we, hang on to-
Svea: Yeah ... to
Rick: that? I remember.
We remember what our life was like before Jesus.
Svea: and maybe you actually just illustrated it- Yeah ... without even intending to, I think. Yeah. Just hanging on to our own story- watching that play out in other people's lives- Yeah ... and hanging on to the joy of what we see there, and just remembering the- So-
incredible j- joy and beauty- ... and wonder- So- ... that there is in a new relationship with
Rick: God ... this is one of the things I've tried to do with my kids, with, this, and because I think our, home has been relatively vanilla in the fact that, it's just been... There hasn't been chaos. It's just, it's been a lot of stability, and, following Jesus, and, in church, and just...
There, there ha- Okay, my extended family has brought some stuff in. My dad was in prison. There's some- That, but for the most part, my kids' experiences are, some people might use the word sheltered. My daughter said to me the other day, she's like, "Dad, of course I believe in fairy tales. I grew up listening to Taylor Swift and watching You and Mom."
And so- Aww. So I'm like, "Yeah." okay. So I don't like name names. I don't, try to tell really anybody's stories, but I look for opportunities to help my kids see what a life is like outside of trusting Jesus-
and so that they can see the difference, and so that they can have gratitude for what it's like walking with Jesus- instead of walking separately from him. This is what it's like to travel with him. This is what it's like to not travel with him. Just let yourself experience gratitude again for what's available-
Svea: Yeah ...
Rick: in him- Yeah ... and what you've, been given.
Svea: I can see gratitude for that. I can see compassion for people- that don't yet know him-
Rick: Yeah ...
Svea: and, and a desire to have them be able to move to the kind of- life that we found in Jesus.
Rick: So let me say one more thing. I want people to have great community. I want people to huddle up and, experience deep spiritual friendships with people at church.
I want them to be traveling with people who are like-minded. I want all of that.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: Full stop. And yet, I don't want people just to, cluster in cocoons-
and be separated, right? I want people to be in the world, not of it. I, want you to have, I want you to have friends with, people who, don't, know Jesus, who, don't follow Jesus.
I don't want you to just conceal yourself off in a cocoon of- of other people. In our little Christian bubble. And then it's easy to start to think, "Look at us. We got it all together. Aren't we great?"
I don't want that. I think, that's a danger, and I think if you kinda go that route, it can be easy to forget what you once discovered and that blew you away.
Svea: Sure. Sure. I've enjoyed the opportunity to just dive a little bit deeper- into this discovering phase. Hopefully, we've unlocked a little bit more for people- Yeah ... of the joy, the beauty- Yeah ... the wonder in this stage. But, but also even just the, the implications that are there- Yeah ... that continue to feed us in our faith for decades to come.
but excited to be moving forward in this expedition-
Rick: Yeah ...
Svea: as we go. And, I'm
Rick: looking forward to this next week ...
Svea: the, the learning phase. Yeah. I think I'm oriented towards the learning phase. Maybe you are, too.
Rick: That's... Yeah, that's not a surprise. Yeah. Yeah. Love the, learning phase.
Svea: So we'll, enjoy unpacking that a little bit more next week.