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Join the Youthworks Ministry Support Team as they discuss how to have an effective youth and children’s ministry in every church in conversation with local ministry workers as well as national and international voices.
Get in touch - effectiveministrypodcast@youthworks.net
Tim Beilharz: Welcome back to the
effective ministry podcast, the podcast
that helps you have an effective youth and
children's ministry in your local church.
My name is Tim Beilharz.
I'm a children's ministry
advisor for Youthworks in Sydney.
And today I'm running solo.
We have a number of great episodes
scheduled for the next few weeks,
but there was a bit of a gap in the
schedule, and I thought I would take
this opportunity to talk about something
that I shared at SMBC Children's Ministry
Conference just this past weekend.
I was asked to speak about
intergenerational small groups,
particularly with a children's ministry
mindset, but as we think about both
youth and children's ministry, I want
to think more about how do we have
an intergenerational lens through
which we could do small groups.
What does it look like to do children's
ministry small groups, or youth ministry
small groups, or even adult small
groups with an intergenerational lens?
So I'm going to dig into a little bit
there of what I shared over the weekend.
And we'll be back to our
regular scheduling soon.
Yeah.
Tim Beilharz: First, I wanted to talk
about what are some of those foundational
elements of intergenerational ministry.
If you want to dig into a couple of
previous episodes of this podcast that
talk about intergenerational ministry, you
can go back to episode three, a beginner's
guide to intergenerational ministry.
Episode four is a round table conference
that we had with Bishop Chris Edwards
and Reverend Stuart Crawshaw talking
about intergenerational ministry.
There's also episode seven talking about
children's family and intergenerational
ministry between me and Dan Wu.
And there's a number of other
episodes I'll reference as
we go through today as well.
But intergenerational ministry is a really
key part of what YouthWorks believes is
effective youth and children's ministry.
Why is this?
What is some of the foundational
ideas that are linked in
intergenerational ministry?
Well, the best definition of
intergenerational ministry comes
from the book Intergenerational
Christian Formation.
For those who want to dig deep on
this topic, this is the textbook
version of intergenerational ministry.
It's now in its second edition.
The original edition was by
Holly Allen, Christine Ross.
And for the second edition,
Corey Seibel as well.
Here is the definition that they
give of intergenerational ministry.
"Intergenerational ministry occurs when
a congregation intentionally brings
the generations together in mutual
serving, sharing, or learning within
the core activities of the church.
in order to live out being the
body of Christ to each other
and the greater community."
Already we can see some of the key ideas
that come into intergenerational ministry.
The first is that intergenerational
ministry is intentional.
It is often the case when you look
around your church that you will
have different generations present,
but this is often just accidentally.
So it just happens to be that there are
different generations at your church.
And if this is the case, that's fantastic.
But intergenerational ministry has
a special focus on intentionally
bringing generations together.
I like to distinguish between
a multi generational church and
an intergenerational church.
A multi generational church has lots of
generations present at the same place at
the same time, often for the same purpose.
And this is great.
And it's an excellent start to
building an intergenerational church.
But often those multigenerational churches
are about as effective as my train
carriage to the city on Monday mornings.
It is also multigenerational.
There are primary school children,
high school children, young workers,
middle aged workers, seniors.
We have all generations present on
that train carriage, and yet there's
no intentionality, even though we're
all at the same place at the same
time, heading in the same direction
for the same purpose, there's no
intentionality in bringing us together.
There's also no expectation
of relationships.
This is a multi generational
carriage and it's the same often
with our multi generational church.
We have all the people of different
generations in the same place at the
same time with the same purpose in mind.
They all enjoy this church with these
songs and this preacher or whatever is
going on in this church community but
there's not necessarily an intentionality
and an expectation that these generations
will build into each other's lives
in a mutual and reciprocal way.
And this is the other key thing that
Holly Allen and Christine Ross bring out.
That the bringing the
generations together is mutual.
There is mutual serving,
sharing and learning.
Two of the key ideas of
intergenerationality is that there
is mutual and it's reciprocal.
That is both generations.
If you have two or all generations,
if you have more than two.
are able to speak into each
other's lives, are able to build
discipleship with each other.
And this is really key.
It's not just top down helping
build the faith of younger people
up towards the more mature, though
of course that is a key aspect.
But it's also the older generations
looking to the younger generations
and expecting to learn from them.
There's an expectation that there'll
be a mutuality of service, a mutuality
of sharing, and a mutuality of
learning that not just the younger can
learn from the older, but the older
can learn from the younger as well.
Another key definition of
intergenerational ministry comes
from my friend, Joe Azzopardi.
You can find out more about Joe on episode
39 of the Effective Ministry Podcast,
where I interview him extensively,
but he has one quote that I think
captures what an intergenerational
church is striving towards.
Here's what he says.
"The factors that contribute to creating
an intergenerational community are
when the representatives of different
generations have a shared experience
of positive interactions with each
other, a sense of connectedness,
interdependence, empowerment,
and accommodation of each other."
Here again are a couple of the
key ideas that we want to put into
our lens of intergenerationality.
That there's a shared experience
of positive interactions.
I have some young people talk to
me and wonder about the possibility
of intergenerational ministry.
They wonder whether it's even possible
to have a truly intergenerational church.
And sometimes the doubt comes from their
negative experiences of other generations.
Their experiences of older generations
have been that they've been put
down, that they've been chastised or
criticised in the church and this has
dampened their enthusiasm for having
genuine intergenerational relationships.
Joe's pointing out something really key
here which is that the shared experience
must have positive interactions.
These will create a sense
of connectedness, he said.
And the other key thing here
is it's interdependence.
Often in a very individualistic,
independent age, we'd like to
think that we can do this by
ourselves, thank you very much.
But part of the way that God has
designed us to be And one of the
things that intergenerationality
is in trying to intentionally
bring out is this interdependence
that we have with each other.
I need the other people in my
church and I need the others
who are different to myself.
I need those who are older.
I need those who are
younger and they need me.
We are interdependent in such a
way that it would be a loss if I
was not in proximity with them in
genuine discipleship relationships.
Interdependence is a
really key factor here.
The other aspect is accommodation.
Accommodation simply means that when two
people who are unlike each other come
together, they will have to accommodate,
they will have to put off some of
their own preferences for the sake
of hanging out with the other person.
In our churches, music is often
a good test case for this.
I might really enjoy distorted guitars
and drums, and yet I might have a
90 year old in my congregation who
really enjoys the organ and hymns.
What is going to happen when we come
together for the purposes of mutual
serving, sharing and learning within
the context of a worshipping community?
Well, I might have to accommodate
my preferences of distorted guitar
and drums in order to love my elder.
for whom that would be a distraction
and a disruption to her ability
to worship and be able to engage
with her through organ and hymns.
Or it might be that my older saint says,
Tim, these drums make my ears bleed.
But I love you so much and I
want to see your faith formed in
a way that resonates with you.
And so I'm willing to put up
with loud drums in order to see
you grow as a disciple of Jesus.
I will accommodate my preference
for hymn books and organ so that
you can get some of what you need.
Anytime we bring generations together, in
fact, anytime we bring different people
together, even of the same generation,
they will require some accommodation.
Paul talks about this in 1 Corinthians
when he expresses that The older, more
mature Christian has a higher expectation
to put off their own preferences for
the sake of the younger Christian.
You remember he talks about
eating meat and how eating meat
in and of itself is not sinful.
But if there are those in your
congregation who believe that eating
meat is sinful, then those who feel free
and who are spiritually mature enough
to recognize that freedom they have
to eat the meat sacrificed to idols in
that Corinthian context, were to put off
that good preference, in order to love
those for whom that was a distraction.
When it comes to intergenerational
ministry, there are going
to be a number of factors of
accommodation that is required.
Yeah.
Tim Beilharz: Where do we see
intergenerationality in the Bible?
Well, there's a number of places we
could spend a lot of time talking about
this, but I want to just highlight
three particular spots where we see
some of these threads come together.
The first is Matthew 19:1-4.
Here's what it says.
"At that time, the disciples came
to Jesus and asked, Who then is the
greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
He called a little child to him
and placed the child among them.
And he said, Truly I tell you,
unless you change and become like
little children, you will never
enter the kingdom of heaven.
Therefore, whoever takes the lowly
position of this child is the
greatest in the kingdom of heaven."
It's interesting here that in
a context of asking who is the
greatest, Jesus brings in the child.
Here and in other places in Matthew and
also in Mark and Luke, this idea of the
child being placed in the midst and that
the adults are to look to the child to
learn about what it means to be part
of the kingdom, that we are to welcome
the children as if we were welcoming
Christ, highlights that the child has a
significant place in the church community.
for the sake of the adults.
There is something that is faith formative
for the older generations in looking to
and welcoming and including children and
seeing them as an example of kingdom life.
Whoever takes the lowly position
of this child is the greatest
in the kingdom of heaven.
If we want to grow as disciples
of Jesus as adults, then we must
be in proximity with children.
Another key verse comes
from Galatians 3:26-28.
Paul here is talking about the differences
that existed in the Galatian church
and saying that here God has radically
redefined what it means to be part of
his people, that we are all co adopted
into his family, which levels out any
differences that may otherwise exist.
In his context, this is what he says.
"So in Christ Jesus, you are all
children of God through faith.
For all of you who are baptized
into Christ, have clothed
yourselves with Christ.
There is neither Jew nor
Gentile, neither slave nor free.
There is neither male nor female,
for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
If you belong to Christ, then
you are Abraham's seed and
heirs according to the promise".
We could add there into those
differences, there is no longer
any child or teenager or adult.
If they belong to Christ, if the child
or the teenager or the middle adult or
the senior adult belong to Christ, then
they are heirs according to the promise.
They are all one in Christ Jesus.
And so this leveling out of
difference in the kingdom of God is
a significant part of why we would
build an intergenerational ministry.
Lastly, Romans 12, but also in 1
Corinthians 12, Paul talks about the body.
He says, "For just as each of us has one
body with many members, and these members
do not all have the same function, so in
Christ we, though many, form one body, and
each member belongs to all the others."
I love this idea that each
member belongs to all the others.
The child belongs to the middle aged.
The middle aged belongs to the teenager.
The teenager belongs to the senior saint.
All belong to each other.
And the fact that we are
different is the point.
Paul says you are
interdependent with each other.
Each member of the body belongs to the
other, is important for the discipleship
and the formation of each other.
And therefore, we will seek to
bring those differences together.
We would not get the benefit of the body
if all the legs were hanging out in one
wing of the church, and all the heads
were hanging out in the church auditorium,
and all the elbows were down in creche.
Unless there are opportunities for the
body to all come together intentionally,
interdependently, accommodating for
each other, sharing experiences with
each other, we are not living out
the body of Christ in the way that
we have opportunity to in our church.
What's the value of
intergenerational ministry?
Well, another friend of mine, Jason
Brian Santos, who you can hear a bit
more on episode 24 of the podcast.
He writes this, "When spiritual
formation primarily takes place
alongside one's own peers, a broader
understanding of the church is distorted.
Individuals begin to see themselves
at the center of the faith community,
rather than part of the larger whole.
Church becomes one more thing
to consume in our culture.
When children and youth are raised in
a truly intergenerational environment
[however], defined by a pattern of
intentional Christian practices, they
learn to understand themselves in
relationship to the larger body of faith.
Moreover, they begin to see that their
faith development isn't isolated to a
particular age or stage, but rather,
that it's a longer journey with all
the generations travelling together."
What Jason Santos is noticing here is
that an inadvertent outcome of segregating
ages is we train young people from very
early that church is all about them,
that their preferences will be met.
We grow up into the church, those who
think that their gathering around God's
word will always fit their preferences,
will always be targeted to their stage of
life, rather than starting to accommodate.
them into the larger body and for
the larger body to accommodate
themselves to the young person.
Intergenerational ministry provides
an opportunity for all generations
to learn together that this long
journey of discipleship has all the
generations traveling together, which
requires some sacrifice from each other.
There will be moments where we
do love and honor each other.
particular generations, we will
be childish in some moments, we
will have a particular focus on
adolescence at different times.
We will celebrate senior
sainthood or middle age.
And yet by bringing people together in an
intergenerational community, we have the
opportunity to celebrate with each other.
And it breaks down some of that
expectation that church will
always suit me and my stage of
life and my age appropriateness.
Yeah.
Tim Beilharz: What does
this mean for small groups?
Well, as I said, at SMBC, Sydney
Missionary Bible College Children's
Ministry Conference, last weekend,
I had the opportunity to talk
particularly about children's small
groups, but the same principles apply
for youth ministry small groups and
adult ministry small groups as well.
As we bring intergenerationality into
a small group context, we're thinking
about how do we do these small groups
with an intergenerational lens in mind.
Now notice that we are not creating
intergenerational small groups.
That is something else entirely.
I'm wondering about how do I do
children's ministry small groups,
or how do I do youth ministry small
groups, with intergenerational
ministry principles shining through.
How do I do those age specific ministries
with an intergenerational lens?
And a key part here is thinking about what
the metaphor is that shapes our ministry.
I get this idea from a book called
Children Matter by Scotty May and others.
And they have a chapter, the
very first chapter I believe,
called Metaphors Shape Ministry.
A key metaphor in the children's
ministry world is a schooling model.
The schooling model assumes that the
adults in the room, their responsibility
is to teach and the young people in the
room, their responsibility is to learn.
This will be the same for youth
ministry, small groups where the
youth leaders are responsible for
leading the conversation, shaping.
The lesson and communicating content and
the teenagers in the room are responsible
to learn from the older members.
What this model does is it has
a stark differentiation between
the adults and the children.
This is a ministry for the young people.
The adults in the room are delivering
and the students are receiving.
But we don't often think of this
in a way that the adults are
also receiving discipleship.
It is not faith formative for them.
Which is why we often don't
want to put discipleship.
people onto a children's ministry
roster too many weeks a year because
of this understanding that if they're
in children's ministry, they are
delivering content, they are serving
children, they are not receiving
faith formation for themselves.
We want to make sure that they go
to church regularly so that they
can also receive ministry as well.
That's one model or one
metaphor of ministry, but it's
not necessarily the only one.
There's a number of other metaphors
that could shape our ministry.
Right over the other end of the
spectrum, Scotty May talks about
the pilgrim's journey model.
And in a pilgrim's journey model, both the
children and the adults in the children's
ministry are journeying together, learning
as they go about God through his world.
This is interesting because what it
does is it breaks down that stark
differentiation between the adults in
the room and the children in the room.
The adults in the ministry
become guides in the journey.
There still remains.
the experience and maturity
of the faith of the adults.
After all, Christ does give pastors and
teachers so the body of Christ may be
built up, like Paul writes in Ephesians 4.
However, the ministry is more
easily imagined as churching with
children rather than exclusively
a ministry to or for children.
Now, how does this bring about
our intergenerational principles?
What's happening here is that we are
running our children's ministry small
group with some of these principles in
mind, like the opportunity for mutual
serving, sharing and learning, or
interdependence, the positive interaction
where we might accommodate for each other.
In a pilgrim's journey model, I can come
into the room and I can lead my children's
ministry in a way that expects that I
too will learn something from the text.
that I too will learn something
from the young people.
I look to them and listen to them
and listen out for the ways in which
they might be shaping my faith.
Here's a couple of key practical tips.
We can expect everyone to
engage in the small group.
That is, we're sort of de
emphasizing the adults in the room.
They're not just leaders, though
of course, in an important sense,
they never lose that leadership.
But the adults, the other junior leaders
in the rooms, they are co learners.
They're expected to engage in
the activities, the questions,
the readings, the prayers, just
like the children are as well.
It will mean that I expect
everyone to answer questions.
If I have an icebreaker question or a
wondering question, an open question in
the application, I Then I will ask that
of both the children and the adults in the
room, and I will seek to answer it myself.
We can encourage the adults to answer
truthfully, honestly, still being
aware of the vulnerability of children.
We're not going to be as vulnerable
and transparent as adults in the
midst of a children's small group
as we might be amongst our peers.
But we can still allow some of
our struggles and our questions
and our wonderings to come
through in this small group.
A third thing is we can
expect to learn from children.
Remember Jesus words, that children
are models of faith to adults about
what kingdom faith looks like.
And so when I sit in the children's
ministry small group, whether I'm
the leader or I'm with someone else
who is leading, I will expect that
the children will ask questions,
that they will make connections, that
they will unearth particular sins and
prejudices, they will display a joyful
curiosity, all of which might spark
us as adults towards a deeper faith.
Number four, I can expect that
anyone will direct the conversation.
As children are able to contribute
as genuine contributors, as they
are co learning with us in this
space, they will ask questions,
they will wonder about the text.
The conversation could wander
off in many different directions.
Now there is still a role
for the small group leader to
manage that conversation well.
But there will be times when you allow
the curiosity and wondering of children,
and potentially other adult members,
to lead the conversation and follow
the rabbit trails that are created.
Number five, we can expect
not to have all the answers.
If we are celebrating this co learning,
this fellow pilgrim model, then we are
being open to not knowing the answers.
And rather than being anxious
about that, as a teacher in a
classroom might be, we actually
freed up to wonder along together.
How wonderful it is to
be confused together.
How wonderful it is to explore together.
How wonderful it is for a
child to ask a question that
you don't know the answer to.
As a fellow pilgrim, I'm
freed up from not knowing.
And it can model a humility
and model a lifelong learning.
What it means to be a disciple of Jesus.
Now, of course, this is not
an excuse to not prepare well.
That's not what we're talking about.
But it means that there will be
opportunities where kids will
ask questions and we can say,
joyfully, that's a great question.
I don't know the answer to that.
Let's explore this together.
Last one, we can expect to
accommodate our expectations.
At the end of the day, this
is a children's small group.
So we will be shaped by the questions,
applications, and wonderings that are at
the developmental stage of the children.
And as co learners in the space, we
are not going to co opt this space to
wonder about things that are more age
and stage appropriate for an adult small
group rather than a child small group.
It is not the only place that the adults
in the room will be ministered to.
So it's important to recognize
that this is a space where
adults can receive ministry.
We are churching together with
kids as we open the word together.
I am generationally outnumbered
in this space, but I am
learning together with them.
This is just as much for me as
it is for the children here,
and we are learning together.
But there will also be other spaces
where it's appropriate for me to
have age appropriate learning and
stage appropriate learning for where
I am as an adult with my peers or my
mentors that is not child focused.
So there's a couple of practical ways
in which we can bring intergenerational
lens into our children's small group.
The last thing to think about is, well,
what about our adult small groups?
If we were thinking about our
adult small groups with an
intergenerational lens, then we might
shift these in some interesting ways.
Think about the last adult small
group that you were a part of.
Now, if there was an eight year old,
if they were to be in that room as
a genuine participant in that space,
how would that change the group?
What would be different in the
context, the questions, the pastoral
sharing that existed in that space?
Perhaps a lot, perhaps a little.
Might there be e an opportunity
to include children into the small
group that you currently have?
Well, Running an adult small group
with intergenerationality in mind
might mean including children
for some or part of that group.
And if this is the case, then
you would have some of those same
expectations as we talked about earlier.
We would expect everyone to learn,
we would expect everyone to engage,
everyone to answer questions.
We would expect to learn from
the children in the midst.
We would expect that anyone
could direct the conversation.
We would still expect not to have
all the answers and to accommodate
some of our own expectations.
But there might be some other things that
we might be able to do in our adult small
groups that are a bit different as well.
One might be that you could include
meals more regularly in your small group
together if you don't already do this.
Meals are a great way to
express intergenerationality.
No matter what age a person
is, they need to eat.
And so coming together around a
meal can be a great opportunity
to express intergenerationality.
You might include some activities.
You might do some more hands on learning,
some more puzzles or creativity, some
more craft or activities that help
kinesthetically engage with the passage
if you have young people present.
The last thing to say is it doesn't
have to be all in all the time.
There are some expressions of
intergenerational ministry that
advocate for a closing down of
all age and stage based groups.
That is not what we are
on about at YouthWorks.
We still believe in children's ministry.
We still believe in youth ministry.
We believe that age and stage
specific groups have an important
place to play, and that is
included in adult groups as well.
However, expressing some aspect of
intergenerationality within those
age specific groups can help fuel
the discipleship in those groups.
So here are some possible ways to include
intergenerational ministry within your
adult small groups some of the time.
It might be that you meet together
as all generations but you just
alternate some of the time.
Some of the time you're all together,
maybe with the meals and some
early exploration of the passage.
But then you send the kids out, they go
play in the backyard or they go to sleep
or they watch a movie in another room.
And then you're able to have the
adult centric conversations in a
way that is appropriate to their
age and stage of development.
It might be that you could
alternate the weeks that you meet.
I knew one group that the first week of
the month the women all met together,
the second week of the month men all
met together, the third week of the
month the adults all met together and
only on the fourth week of the month was
there an all in including any children
that were present in those households.
The benefit here was it was only the
third week of the month when all the
adults but no children were present
that those who were in dual parent
households had to look for babysitting.
Okay.
That's going to be different
for our single parents.
It's going to be different for our
singles or those without children.
But a model like that is
intergenerational one of the weeks
and has also has some opportunity
during the other weeks to do some more
focused age or stage based learning.
The third idea is you could have
occasional joining of groups or the
occasional joining of children and
young people into your groups together.
One example from my church
is we have what's called a
commitments week, once a term.
And during this week, different
peer defined small groups can
come together once a term.
We might have a youth small group come
and meet with a middle aged small group
and they join together just once a
term and get to share life with each
other, share prayer points with each and
joining ministry alongside each other.
It might be that once a term or
during the holidays, you meet together
with your regular adult small group,
and that's when your children or
teenage kids can come and join you.
That's what my Bible study does.
My two teenage kids come and
join us just in the holidays.
Yeah.
Tim Beilharz: So there's some ideas of
what intergenerational ministry might
mean for our age specific small groups.
I hope this has been a helpful revision
of intergenerational ministry, some
of the principles that come to play
in this topic, and what it might look
like to run some of our age based small
groups with an intergenerational lens.
Here's some things to think about.
What is there in about the vision
of intergenerational ministry that
encourages you about this topic?
Is there anything that's challenged
you about this topic and what
questions do you still have?
If you've got questions, please email me
effective ministry podcast at youthworks.
net.
I'd love to engage with you.
Uh, and if you've got questions that
you'd like me to share on the podcast,
I'm happy to answer those there as well.
You can reach out to us and
message us on our Facebook page.
Just search Facebook for
Effective Ministry Podcast.
Or you can go to youthworks.
net and at the top, You can see
ministry support, about, and my
mobile and email is there and you can
reach out to me in that way as well.
Thanks for joining us for another
episode of Effective Ministry Podcast.
We'll see you again soon.
Al James: The Effective Ministry podcast
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