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Listen to The Rooted Podcast for in-depth conversations about the Bible and how we can apply it to our lives. Join the team behind Rooted, Bible Society's devotional journal, as we dig deeper into a theme or book of the Bible in each series and explore its message for us today.
Siân Rees (00:00)
Listening requires a real posture of humility, that sense of, I'm not necessarily the expert in what you're talking about. And even if I am, I'm going to prefer you in this moment.
Noël (00:12)
We don't always have to be in agreement. But what we're looking for is this unity and harmony which I think does come from being able to hear someone else who thinks differently from you, to have differing opinions, but to still do life together, to still do ministry together.
Siân Rees (00:27)
The whole of Mark 4 is framed around, that seed being sown. And it's no coincidence if we are good or bad soil – what are we nourishing our souls with? What is the good soil? Does it consist of a prayer life with Jesus where we're sitting and listening? Does it consist of opening God's word? I really believe it does.
And hearing, reading between the lines of the text of pages and just saying, OK, that's the context, but what is Jesus saying to me in this moment today?
Noël (01:00)
Hi everyone, welcome back and welcome to the last episode of The Rooted Podcast. I'm Noël and I'm here with Esther and we have a guest with us today, Siân Rees. Siân oversees Bible Society's work in Wales and she's also a host on Bible Society's other podcast called The Quiet Revival Podcast: what's the story? Thanks for being here, Siân.
Siân Rees (01:22)
You're welcome, it's my privilege.
Noel (01:24)
So far in this series, we've talked about the biblical understanding of listening and what it means to really listen to God. And in this last episode, we wanted to bring Siân on to talk about how we can be better listeners to one another, both inside and outside of the church.
And that is really built on the idea that as Christians, we have this relationship with God that is, a huge part of it is, that we listen to God and he listens to us. And so, we have this beautiful relationship with him that is so attentive and loving. And we want to bring that to our relationships with others.
And also there's just this idea that we have a role to play in our society, that is not always very good at listening. And how can we be a model to them of what loving each other by really listening looks like?
And I guess I'll just start by asking, how do we do that well? And what are some places in Scripture that we can look to that kind of show us how we do that well?
Esther (02:22)
I think the key word in what you just said, Noël, is love, isn't it? It's in that second commandment, the first one being love the Lord your God, but then the second being like it, loving one another. I think that's so key.
If we think about the people we love, we definitely give them more time. We listen more carefully. And because we, I don't know, we want to please them, we want their lives to go well, we do more with what we've heard from them.
It's not always easy to love people even even within the church, we struggle sometimes with being loving. And outside of the church that can be really hard where where we don't have that unifying belief to sort of help us overcome certain things.
I think one way that we can improve at listening is by asking God to help us to love more.
Siân Rees (03:14)
I think you've hit the nail on the head there, Esther. I think, you know, listening requires a real posture of humility. That sense of, I am not necessarily the expert in what you're talking about. And even if I am, I actually, I'm going to prefer you in this moment. And I want to hear what you believe about this, or I want to hear your thoughts, your opinions on this.
And so the posture from which we listen is not ... one of sort of reloading our thoughts and 'I'm going to tell them how it really is' but that sense of, I could really learn, I could glean something from this conversation if I just shush and if I just genuinely hear and read between the lines perhaps of what that person is saying.
Noël (03:56)
Yeah, and I think so much of being able to do that, has to do again with focus and attention. Because how often are we trying to listen to someone who maybe we genuinely want to listen to, but we're distracted?
Have you ever had it where you're listening to someone and they're talking, but you realise that you started thinking about something completely different as the person is sitting there talking to you without even trying to not pay attention? You've just not paid attention.
And so I think a lot of it is, what kind of mental life do I have? Is it crowded? Is it hurried? Or am I actually relaxed enough as a person? Am I actually living in the peace of Jesus enough as a person that when someone comes to talk to me, I can actually pay attention and I can actually be fully present and give them everything that I have in the moment? Or is that really difficult for me?
Esther (04:43)
I know it's difficult for me. I'm so easily distracted.
I'm quite good, for example, when I meet up with a friend or I go to a restaurant, at leaving my phone in my bag – it's nowhere near so I cannot be distracted. I am in that moment. But at home, I'm terrible. It's right there.
My husband could be talking to me about something, it's not necessarily deeply important, but he's sharing, you know, he's bothering to speak to me and he's sharing his thoughts or whatever. And I might be there with my phone just being like, I'm distracted. And I'm, or I'll think to myself the minute he stops talking, he's finished. OK. Now I can go and, you know, scroll mindlessly. And then I don't hear that actually that conversation wasn't over and he's probably feeling like, great! She's off wherever she's at in her mind, but she's not with me.
And I'm sure I do that in many other ways, or basically sometimes when I'm meeting with people, am I waiting for the conversation to be over so that my brain can escape into whatever distraction instead of prioritising that person and not just hoping for the end so I can move on and go and do something else? Which I mean, as I'm verbalising that, it just sounds absolutely awful.
Siân Rees (05:55)
No, I'm feeling seen here, Esther. I really am, because I think we're all susceptible to doing those sort of things.
I mean, particularly, you mentioned the contrast between in person and, for example, on your phone. One thing that I have to be really careful about, particularly online, is that I'm not here to police people's thoughts and opinions, you know, and I don't have to respond to everything that is said online. I mean, actually when you see something that isn't aligned with your opinions, you know, my tendency is, gosh, I need to call this out. I need to say something. Whereas actually that's just not true. I don't have to respond to everything that I hear.
Noël (06:36)
I think that's so good because it involves trust in the Lord really, that he's actually going to take care of this thing without me needing to interject in it. I find that a lot in things with church sometimes where you think, that could be better. This could be done better. Not just church really, just life. But how many of those things do I actually need to speak into and how many of those things can I be quiet about?
Be slow to speak, like James says, quick to listen and instead trust that God is working on that and actually listening for his voice to know if I'm meant to be speaking into that thing or whether I should actually just be listening and praying.
One passage from scripture that I think about when I think about good listening in the church is Acts 2, which we all know quite well – Acts 2.42, where the early Church have sort of begun and it says that they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, to prayer. And then we have in Acts 4, it says that the believers were of one heart and mind.
And there's just this sort of feeling you get reading those passages that they've somehow found harmony and unity, real harmony and unity with each other. And that's not to say that they didn't have issues because we read that they did. But I think that that could not have existed without listening because, and a good point in that, I guess, is that surely there were disagreements among them, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't listening and that there wasn't attentiveness and love and focus. And that actually those things can exist together, and that we don't always have to be in agreement but what we're looking for is this unity and harmony that they carried, which I think does come from being able to hear someone else who thinks differently from you and not even have to come to an agreement in the end, but just to hear one another.
To have differing opinions, but to still do life together, to still do ministry together, to still go after God together. I think about the early Church as a good sort of example of that.
Esther (08:46)
Reading Acts, you just get so much of a sense of excitement though, don't you, as well? They've received the Holy Spirit. They're going out daily to public places like synagogues and other places to share the good news. They're daily seeing people added to their number. And I think some of that excitement is like you see at the beginning here, everyone is super excited. They're saved. They're part of this new community.
And I think they do have a focus, a passion, a sense of purpose that I think sometimes, if you've been in the church for a long time, it's easy to just get caught up in a bunch of like other stuff or, you know, you come to church, but then you spend so much of your time doing normal life, if you know what I mean, being busy. And yeah, so it's like, how do we capture some of that sense of excitement and purpose as a body and remember, you know, what is our role in the world?
Yes, maybe it's not realistic to feel like that all the time, but let's not drift away from it so far that, yeah, we basically meet physically, but we're not really listening.
I think as well, just that thing about people being daily added to their number, there's there's stuff in the New Testament about how living in this way as a body of believers is in itself attractive. People who are not part of that are like, I want to be part of that. Look at these people, look at the way they live. They live such good lives in front of the unbelievers that people are like, well, they A, can't criticise them, but B, they're like, I want to be like that. Tell me more about this community so that I can get in there.
Siân Rees (10:09)
Yeah, but you think of all the ideologies that those newcomers would have carried. And again, that sense of, it could have been a forum just for correcting them, but actually that's not their decision. That's not their choice. Their choice is community. Their choice is harmony. Their choice is, you know, to, for example, see the need and do something about it. So it's very much that they've, they've met with risen Lord, so to speak, and had an encounter with him. And actually, their eyes are diverted off themselves.
And again, I think that's such a crucial thing when we are talking about hearing and listening, you know, that it's not always about me and it's not always about my agenda, my narrative, my story, but it's that preferring of one another.
And again, it comes back to what you said at the start. It's about that second commandment to love one another, you know, just what does that mean? What's the unpacking of that love? It is that preference. It is that sense of listening. It is that sense of, I actually want to do community with you. I want you to be in my life. I want you to be speaking into it. But also that knowing that we can disagree and disagree well, that's not going to break relationship. It's not going to break community, but that we can gather as completely different people – some who had had some element of discipleship, others who are completely fresh to this, and that's okay, you know?
Noël (11:51)
Yeah, and there's so much humility in that too, of listening. The idea that someone who's a newcomer to the community, I can learn so much from them just as they can learn from someone who's been a Christian for 20 years or whatever it is.
Esther (12:05)
But I was thinking as I was preparing for, you know, this conversation that it's not even just about, you know, coming to an agreement or being right or saying the right thing.
In my experience, like, especially within the church, some of the times when I've realised that I haven't listened well, is more about, you know, what I needed to do was come alongside someone and not just hear maybe the question that they asked or the issue that they were raising, but to think about their wider life, you know what was going on in their life.
So I had a friend. She's very academic in a way that I'm just not. And, we'd talk about theology a lot of the time. But basically one time she was really struggling with the fact that her father had cancer. She had questions around, how is this fair? You know, questions about suffering, questions about, you know, what we deserve as people that have lived and served God. And then suddenly, you get this raw deal right at the end when you thought maybe you were going to enter into a time of like blessing and ease.
And, and unfortunately, when she was talking about you know, I was there talking about suffering from a very theological point of view. And you know, what she needed was not a theory – like she was going through something in her life and I just, I needed to be quiet about all of that. And, you know, mourn with those who mourn basically, or weep with those who weep. I needed to do some weeping, listening and yeah, just sitting alongside her.
And you know, she's shown me a lot of grace in many, different ways over our friendship. But I think in that moment, not listening and just giving a theological answer, I did so much damage. And I missed an opportunity to really comfort someone who was going through something really difficult, and to just pray with her as well.
Siân Rees (13:49)
And isn't it interesting that so often Jesus, when he was asked questions, he replies with a question. He doesn't provide the answer, the solution. He kind of draws it out of the person that's questioning in the first place. And maybe that's a clue to us listening well is to be sort of submitting more of the kind of, tell me how you feel, tell me what you think, what's your opinion on this? Again, so that the focus is off us and that the focus is on the person and loving them well and prioritising them well. But I do think there's something in that, isn't there, that Jesus came back so often with a question?
Noël (14:48)
Yeah, it is really good. And you were talking to us, Siân, as we were sort of preparing for this about a passage in Mark 4, where Jesus, sort of distinguishes between the ways that the disciples are sort of to be hearing or listening or their experience in that and the crowds when he's speaking. I wonder if you could talk us through that bit. I thought it was really interesting.
Siân Rees (15:14)
Yeah, it's really worth a look. So Mark chapter four, there's a kind of hearing and listening, sorry, hearing and seeing motif that Jesus brings out. And in it, he distinguishes between the two groups of people who are present, the people who physically hear Jesus and don't necessarily understand, that's okay. But then there's people who spiritually perceive and therefore respond faithfully.
You know, I think a lot of it is how do we respond to the revelation that Jesus gives us when there is so much busyness in our lives and in our minds sort of thing, you know. I love that this passage and so many others just says, listen, listen in, lean in, hear what I'm saying now. Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear, you know.
And I think that would have been a moment where people either lean into Jesus and say, yeah, what is he about to disclose here? Or, you know, the ones who just are not interested really, yeah, then they're not going to be listening.
He does, Jesus does contrast the sort of insiders and outsiders. And I don't know if that's a good way of saying it really, but, you know, the disciples are gradually being given understanding, even though, as we know from the rest of Mark's Gospel and the other three Gospels, they didn't always get it. But then there are the sort of those outside of Jesus' immediate circle and they're hearing these parables and perhaps parables that we know really, really well, might even have heard them since Sunday school, but they're hearing them for the first time. And there's that sense of Jesus speaking in stories and in allegories and the need to just process, what is he saying, you know?
And so you know that is the theme really that runs throughout Mark, you know. Who are the hearers? Who's seeing what God is saying and who is hearing but still failing to recognise who Jesus is?
Noël (17:09)
Hmm. it does come into how we listen to one another, I think, because the way in which, well, I guess because we're supposed to be saying what we hear the Father saying, aren't we? Just like Jesus did. So actually how we hear Jesus and perceive what he's saying really impacts the way in which we go about our relationship with others.
And so yeah, I think that is really good. You were going to say something, Esther.
Esther (17:35)
Well, yeah, I was just going to say something about patience as well. In terms of like, when we're speaking and we're hoping that someone is going to hear what we're saying, I can definitely become frustrated when I'm just like, no, they still haven't got it. And, you know, either, you know, I'll go in heavy and try again, like, OK, I must not have explained it well enough, but if we're thinking about some of Jesus' parables, it's like that sowing analogy. You sow the seeds but they don't grow immediately, they don't produce fruit immediately.
And when I think how many times something may have been communicated to me before I actually absorbed it, before it fully clicked, before I was fully willing to be like, OK, I'm actually going to change my outlook because I've now understood this really important principle.
And letting God do the work, the Holy Spirit work, that we are definitely not in control of, because we won't hear and we won't understand the Kingdom unless the Holy Spirit helps us.
Siân Rees (18:40)
Yes, and I think coming back to what you're saying, the whole of Mark 4 is framed around, that seed being sown and it's no coincidence if we are good or bad soil. What are we feeding, what are we nourishing our souls with? What is the good soil? What does it consist of? Does it consist of a prayer life with Jesus where we're sitting and listening? Does it consist of opening God's word – I really believe it does – and hearing, reading between the lines of the text of pages and just saying, OK, that's the context, but what is Jesus saying to me in this moment today?
Noël (19:16)
I think there's so much in that too, in listening to Jesus with our communities. So what you're saying, there's so much in reading Scripture, prayer, those things – I think it's powerful when we do that as a community.
And there is a way of hearing things from God through someone else that you wouldn't have heard if you were just reading Scripture by yourself or you were just praying by yourself. And I there is so much power in that. And I think it is, it does transform us and shape us into a kind of community who are so used to listening to Jesus and denying ourselves in that and denying always wanting to talk or tell them what we want to do and all this kind of thing.
But listening actually is, I think, a step in self-denial and it does shape us and form us as Christians. And when we do that together, it's so powerful. And surely it helps us to then deny ourselves when we need to listen to someone else speaking, listen to someone else's idea, listen to someone else's opinion that maybe we don't agree with. So I think there is this sort of formation piece to listening as well.
Siân Rees (20:24)
And that's what, you know, as we've been recording The Quiet Revival Podcast, we've been seeing across the nations of England and Wales, you know, that actually reading the Bible, whereas perhaps in our church services, there's more of a monologue, you know, we sit there and we're fed by the preacher, that actually in this moment, people are desiring that dialogue. That many churches in fact are doing a kind of Alpha style, if you like, church setting.
We certainly are in Cardiff. We've got our nine and 11, which are your sort of traditional church settings, I guess, where we would worship and have a preach and pray. But at the six o'clock, it's round tables and we still have the same preach, but there are questions and we've seen that service just grow and grow and grow because people really want to be curious. They want to ask and they want to be heard and to say things. And just the growth, the spiritual depth that has come out of those 6 pm services is astonishing.
We've deliberately, at our church as well, been reading through passages of Scripture. For example, we're in the middle of Galatians at the moment. So we've only got one chapter a week, which is just a breeze compared with when we've been going through, I don't know, Acts or John where you know, we've had passages every day, but, you know, to be able to read things at the same time as your fellow brothers and sisters, and then either online or in small groups or in our young adults or youth groups coming together and saying, well, what did you understand Jesus was saying in that respect?
And it's been beautiful to grow together in the same sort of direction and to be able to literally, you know, when you meet people in the week saying, you know, what did you think of that chapter? Like, did you get it? What did you think? What's your take? And again, the spiritual growth and the depth and the breadth of our relationship with each other and with Jesus has really grown.
Esther (22:26)
But I think that's so key to what discipleship is, isn't it? Because discipleship is not just absorbing. But like, until you have a conversation about what you've been taught or what you've heard, you can't tell sometimes whether it's really gone in or how people are then applying that in their life, whether they can verbalise it in their own words, or they're sort of left saying, well, my pastor says this, or you know, I heard a talk on this passage. And whatever that person has managed to remember from that maybe long talk, they might have only taken away one really clear thing. And then in their mind, are they thinking, that's what that passage is all about? But there's probably so much more there.
So in listening to each other and studying together and exploring together, you get such a greater depth of understanding and discipleship and more time to think, well, and what difference does this make in my daily life?
And I think this is important, not just inside the church, but outside of the church for people that come to us and say, why are you a Christian? Why do you believe these things? Or, you know, I read, I read this in the Bible. It sounds crazy to me or, or it seems to be saying this. Like, how can you engage with that person well? A, really listening to where they're coming from. But if you can't even really verbalise in your own community where you all are maybe more charitable about it or you agree ... I think it's so important, in terms of us being able to go out and do our job as witnesses and gospel sharers – we need that depth and that willingness to really dig in together and listen.
Noël (24:09)
Yeah, I agree. I think almost, listening is so important inside of the church. But I think, again, what we were saying earlier about modelling what listening looks like, it's almost that much more important outside of the church, where, you know, I even think sometimes just keeping eye contact with someone as they're speaking and just showing that I'm really listening to them, I'm not distracted by something else, can actually be quite rare in society and so how can we model that for others?
But then again, what you're talking about Esther which is maybe having a conversation with someone about faith who isn't a Christian. And of course we want to share our faith and we're so eager for people to know how good Jesus is and what life with him is like.
But I I think about about Jesus, again, speaking with people who didn't believe in him or who had rejected him and again his patience and his kindness in that. And yeah, I think it is so important when we're in those conversations just to be really trying to understand, seeking to understand the other person, because that's where we grow empathy and we grow an understanding and we actually build relationship in that way.
And otherwise, I wonder if we skip past a lot of that relationship just to sort of try to have a ... what is often a tricky conversation instead.
Esther (25:32)
And I wonder what's going on inside of us as well? Sometimes when we, we know we could listen and we know what's required is not just a neat answer, but a conversation, maybe a long one, maybe one that spreads over several days and weeks and encounters. You know, are we feeling threatened or somehow insufficient in ourselves when we don't want to have that kind of interaction or when we wish there was just a perfect little pamphlet that we could give someone that answered all of their questions and then they'd leave us alone basically. Job done!
You know, I think we probably do need a moment to look inside ourselves to think, well, why is it that I hope that kind of encounter won't happen? Or why is it that I sort of run away from that? Or why has it not gone well? Why have I failed to listen in that moment? And then to pray about those reasons and to do something about them rather than just being like, OK well that's the way I am. I'm obviously not very good at this.
Noël (26:31)
Before we go, I just wanted to ask Siân if you could just speak a bit about The Quiet Revival Podcast: what's the story?
I think there will be some listeners here that would really enjoy it. And yeah, it would just be great to hear from you. What's it all about? Yeah, what are you guys doing over there?
Siân Rees (26:49)
Sure, well of course the first thing to say is to acknowledge you know that by now we have actually withdrawn The Quiet Revival report based on YouGov telling us that some of their different procedures for checking that the data was legitimate weren't put into action. So very speedily, Bible Society withdrew that report which of course is very frustrating, disappointing as well.
But what we do know is that God is moving and he is moving powerfully and just responding to that sense of, you know, spiritual curiosity and spiritual openness across our nations. You know, we have heard the most wonderful stories of transformation, whether that's in whole communities or in individual lives. And so in series two, what we've tried to do is to capture some of those stories.
Not in a sense of wanting to say, you know, 'Well, we still believe that the report is true!' Because we're not saying that at all. We're saying, we still believe that God is at work and we have withdrawn the report for good reason.
So we have been in churches across England and Wales, some are rural, some are urban. Some are doing things really differently because this season feels different and we've really tried to capture that. So for example, we've been down on the Gower, looking at wild church and church outside in the open and how some Christians there are using creation to really speak into people's spiritual curiosity.
We've been to a church in Cirencester which has been unbelievable in engaging people with the Bible and has really truly made an impact in terms of raising Bible confidence.
We've heard of stories of young adults, all different generations and in many different communities who are just seeing God at work. And so it's been an absolute thrill to just hear some stories of what God is doing.
So I think if you just want stories, good news stories of God being at work, this podcast is really for you.
Noël (28:56)
Amazing. Thank you, Siân. I'm really excited about that podcast, as are all of us at Bible Society.
Well, thank you, Siân, for coming on and speaking with us. Thanks for being here and thank you to everyone who has listened to The Rooted Podcast over the last couple of years. And we're so grateful. and we've so enjoyed making this. So thank you so much.