Sculpture, Stone Carving, and the Human Experience with Anna Rubincam

Anna Rubincam reflects on her journey into stone carving, the beauty and challenges of sculpting, and the odd myths she often comes across about sculptors.

Show Notes

In this episode of the Chasing Leviathan podcast, PJ and Anna Rubincam discuss the intricacies of stone carving, Anna's creative process, and the odd (and sometimes hilarious) romantic perceptions that we have about sculptors. 

For a deep dive into Anna Rubincam's work, check out her website and Instagram account: 
Website 👉 https://www.annarubincam.com/ 
Instagram - @AnnnaRubincam 👉 https://www.instagram.com/annarubincam/

Check out our blog on www.candidgoatproductions.com 

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. 

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. 

Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

What is Chasing Leviathan?

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

[Unknown6]: so today we want to talk about what

[Unknown6]: does sculpting and stone carving really bring

[Unknown6]: in terms of a unique contribution to the human experience and full disclosure the

[Unknown6]: way that i found you is my son

[Unknown6]: a home school in and so we were looking up sculpting videos and i found the video

[Unknown6]: view on national geographic

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown6]: and i was like one i love the answers you gave uh but also just i'm a huge fan of

[Unknown6]: your work i mean just going through and it's just gorgeous and uh it was inspiring

[Unknown6]: for him as well i mean he's six so uh you know

[Unknown6]: maybe not working with the power tools yet but yeah

[Unknown7]: nope they can be a tough crowd

[Unknown6]: but but really really cool

[Unknown6]: so before we get into that question of that unique contribution though tell us a

[Unknown6]: little bit about yourself a little bit how you got interested in this

[Unknown6]: uh how did you get interested in stone cutting what was that path like

[Unknown7]: i mean it

[Unknown6]: um it is it he's uh

[Unknown7]: seems uh it was kind of an accident um

[Unknown7]: i did a history degree in montreal and didn't really

[Unknown6]: hmm

[Unknown7]: know what i wanted to do after that and then was traveling around europe and saw

[Unknown7]: some stonemasons working on the outside of cathedral and i didn't really know what

[Unknown7]: they were doing at the time but i was like that looks really cool i'm going to

[Unknown7]: find out how to do that and

[Unknown7]: so when i came when i went back to canada where i'm from originally um i

[Unknown6]: hmm

[Unknown7]: was trying to find places to study and unfortunately canada is a lovely place but

[Unknown7]: doesn't really have the

[Unknown7]: infrastructure in place to train stone masons so found a place to study weymouth

[Unknown6]: really i think

[Unknown7]: college in dorset in the southwest of london and called them up and they were like

[Unknown7]: yes we would like to

[Unknown6]: like

[Unknown7]: take your international student fees and

[Unknown7]: basically kind of went over there like on very short notice and kind of never left

[Unknown7]: and that was a long time ago

[Unknown7]: and then slowly my

[Unknown6]: so for you that was

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown7]: yeah um

[Unknown6]: no no go ahead

[Unknown7]: no um yeah i think slowly

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown7]: my interest became a bit more specific um because masonry is

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown7]: very much is is a sort of a very specific in some ways but a very broad much more

[Unknown7]: broad trade and it's more sort of the building side of

[Unknown7]: an architectural side of stone work and then i sort of slowly became more and more

[Unknown7]: interested in the more artistic side of stonework and then went to art school in

[Unknown7]: london and so yeah here i am

[Unknown6]: oh that's so cool and so for those closest to you was that kind of a surprise to

[Unknown6]: them that you're all of a sudden like hey i studied history but i saw some people

[Unknown6]: working on like on some stone outside a building and i want to do that where they

[Unknown6]: like oh well that's new or was that they're kind of like yeah could kind of see

[Unknown6]: that coming

[Unknown7]: i don't think so i think i told my parents and uh i think my dad who uh was just

[Unknown7]: like happy that i'd found something that i seemed excited about and was like

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown7]: i'm fairly fairly introverted naturally and i it sort of broke me out of my bubble

[Unknown7]: and i was sort of calling random carvers in france and like be like can i come

[Unknown7]: over and i just like show up at your workshop and you can teach me and they were

[Unknown7]: like please please stop calling us

[Unknown7]: and so he was actually he was actually the one who found a way with college and

[Unknown7]: was like what about this and so now they were very

[Unknown6]: they were very

[Unknown7]: very supportive maybe a little bit surprised but i

[Unknown7]: come from a quite artistic family so i think

[Unknown6]: that quite interesting them

[Unknown6]: i think it was

[Unknown7]: they were just keen to see me do something i was excited about

[Unknown6]: oh that's awesome that's really cool so for you you started to morph from kind of

[Unknown6]: masonry you went into art school what was that journey like i mean you said you

[Unknown6]: mentioned come from an artistic

[Unknown7]: no

[Unknown6]: family so is that move from like building you know you mentioned that with a

[Unknown6]: masonry to kind

[Unknown7]: like

[Unknown6]: of more the artistic side what was that journey like you mentioned a little bit

[Unknown6]: about it but

[Unknown7]: um i think it i mean

[Unknown6]: um i mean i

[Unknown7]: when i was a stonemason and i did it an apprenticeship a three year apprenticeship

[Unknown7]: with a restoration a company that specialized mostly in restoration and that sort

[Unknown7]: of that's generally sort of the bread and butter in the uk at least of sort of how

[Unknown7]: stone

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown7]: carbs make money

[Unknown7]: and so i would be on i'd be traveling around and

[Unknown7]: staying in like tiny little towns in sort of various parts of the like midlands

[Unknown6]: you had like how

[Unknown7]: and southwest

[Unknown7]: and anytime there was any sort of fun stuff to do they always got someone else to

[Unknown7]: do it and we were like hm that looks like fun and all we're doing do is window

[Unknown7]: sills and um cladding which is there it like takes takes skill but is like a bit

[Unknown7]: repetitive after a while and so i was like i would i would quite like to do what

[Unknown7]: that other guy's doing the the guy that they hired specifically so

[Unknown6]: high school

[Unknown7]: and then one of one of my friends who i trained with uh

[Unknown6]: i think

[Unknown7]: went to city and girls and said good really good things about it so i followed in

[Unknown7]: his footsteps

[Unknown6]: oh that's awesome yeah as i'm looking here

[Unknown6]: what so you know i'm looking i watch the video and i'm kind of looking through

[Unknown6]: your website is there a specific stone that you tend to work with or do you have a

[Unknown6]: favorite when you can get to work with it

[Unknown7]: well

[Unknown6]: white

[Unknown7]: in dorsett in the

[Unknown6]: in g

[Unknown7]: southwest where i trained

[Unknown6]: by work so you have the ale the eye t

[Unknown7]: you have the isle the isle of portland which is i think it counts as like an

[Unknown7]: you have the isle the isle of portland which is i think it counts as like an

[Unknown7]: isthmus or a peninsula it's like joined by a land bridge anyway not important

[Unknown7]: isthmus or a peninsula it's like joined by a land bridge anyway not important

[Unknown7]: but that is where

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown7]: and it's what

[Unknown7]: is basically what was used by

[Unknown6]: um fifty one

[Unknown6]: five

[Unknown7]: stone masons and architects to rebuild london after the great fire so st paul's

[Unknown6]: for

[Unknown7]: cathedral is made out of portland and a all lot of christopher ren churches are

[Unknown6]: oh

[Unknown7]: made of portland and it's sort of like a like a light gray color it weathers

[Unknown6]: like bright color we

[Unknown7]: really well it takes detail really well

[Unknown7]: and so that's what i train that's what i learned on and so that's sort of the main

[Unknown7]: stone that i work with

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown6]: got it yeah no the um and you mentioned this and this was really fascinating to me

[Unknown6]: in the national geographic video

[Unknown6]: because you know even i do digital marketing for my day job and so i see things

[Unknown6]: that other people don't see right like you know the way that people like do things

[Unknown6]: on their phone and i'm like you have no idea how they're like manipulating you

[Unknown6]: right now

[Unknown6]: but you mentioned in the national geographic video you describe the human

[Unknown6]: face and the body is this contiguous surface right like that people often see like

[Unknown6]: a chin and and lips and nose but it's actually you have the skin and it's this

[Unknown6]: kind of continuous thing

[Unknown7]: u

[Unknown6]: is there anything else or even if you want to expound on that

[Unknown6]: has

[Unknown6]: moving into stone cutting changed your vision of the world

[Unknown6]: well

[Unknown7]: uh i need

[Unknown6]: oh

[Unknown7]: there definitely um

[Unknown7]: i think one of the the main things that i really appreciated about going to art

[Unknown6]: what it is

[Unknown7]: school i mean i think we all showed up and we were all different ages and had

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown7]: different backgrounds there were people who were graphic designers and architects

[Unknown6]: definitely the ten back now

[Unknown7]: and then people who are still a masons like me and

[Unknown7]: i think we always wanted to show up and be like please give us a ch now and like

[Unknown7]: let us just do whatever we wanted and they were like calm down put the chisel down

[Unknown7]: you need to go and learn how to draw first

[Unknown6]: i

[Unknown7]: and learn how to model and play you need to learn anatomy

[Unknown7]: both animal and human you need to learn facial anatomy you need to learn the

[Unknown7]: foundations of the forms you are then going to try and express in stone

[Unknown6]: the form like write express

[Unknown6]: stuff um

[Unknown6]: i

[Unknown7]: and i think that's like that's like the biggest difference i notice between people

[Unknown6]: that's

[Unknown7]: who uh are formally trained in um stone carving and maybe people who have sort of

[Unknown6]: what

[Unknown6]: stuff

[Unknown7]: acquired skill through other means

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown7]: but sorry

[Unknown7]: leading into your question

[Unknown7]: i definitely the more the more anatomy i study the more i notice it

[Unknown6]: definitely

[Unknown6]: more

[Unknown7]: when i probably makes me unsettling to talk to at a party if i see someone who has

[Unknown7]: an interesting face

[Unknown7]: and you sort of like um i think if you the more the more you model the human face

[Unknown6]: for um the what want need to face

[Unknown7]: or the human body

[Unknown7]: the more you should have noticed the variations in how anatomy is formed and

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown7]: like even like something like the forehead which you think would be like pretty

[Unknown6]: you think

[Unknown7]: much the same for everybody every and it's a flat like looks like a flat surface

[Unknown6]: everybody

[Unknown7]: surely it's easy

[Unknown7]: but then you try and model someone's forehead and you realize that everyone is is

[Unknown7]: slightly different and everyone's has different nodules here and different sort of

[Unknown6]: what do we

[Unknown7]: ways the muscle it's all i mean it's all basically the same thing but it all sort

[Unknown6]: so

[Unknown6]: you know

[Unknown7]: of expresses itself differently and that's really fascinating

[Unknown6]: yeah that is fascinating and i even see it a lot of the work on your website seems

[Unknown6]: to deal with cloth are you kind of fascinated with contiguous surfaces like that

[Unknown6]: do you see a connection between the way that you model cloth in the way you model

[Unknown6]: human skin

[Unknown7]: yeah there was a definite

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown7]: it was a definite similarity and one of the projects i did when i was the fellow

[Unknown7]: at city and gills was a portrait of my

[Unknown7]: my dad

[Unknown6]: my dad

[Unknown7]: and i mean he might not appreciate me describing it this way but um

[Unknown7]: i wanted

[Unknown7]: i won't tell him

[Unknown7]: he

[Unknown6]: yes fair enough

[Unknown7]: i i mean without speaking about him specifically um when people get old their skin

[Unknown7]: starts to s and so i wanted to do a

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown7]: basically model and then carve a human tour so kind of in a similar way of like

[Unknown6]: biscuit

[Unknown6]: way

[Unknown6]: class

[Unknown7]: classical greek and classical roman sculpture which is always very much a

[Unknown7]: celebration of the youth and beauty and

[Unknown7]: everyone's always ripped and

[Unknown6]: yeah yeah

[Unknown7]: all the muscles are incredibly well defined and i've got like no body fat

[Unknown7]: and so i wanted to sort of do a bit of a play on that and

[Unknown7]: yeah model someone who was a bit older who wasn't necessarily overweight but

[Unknown7]: yeah so sort of

[Unknown6]: but not david

[Unknown7]: like different comic not david yeah different yeah just i think yeah

[Unknown6]: yes

[Unknown7]: and when in sorry this is a bit of a roundabout way but

[Unknown6]: no no this is great

[Unknown7]: in

[Unknown6]: uh in like like s for example

[Unknown7]: in like life drawing classes for example

[Unknown7]: when i tell people that like they'll draw naked people they're like ooh well that

[Unknown6]: right people

[Unknown7]: must be like really uncomfortable just to have like super fits like models who

[Unknown6]: kids mo

[Unknown7]: come in and like ballet dancers and that must be like really amazing and i was

[Unknown7]: like no in fact like the the best people to model are people who have like

[Unknown7]: interesting body shapes and a variety of body shapes and people who have like

[Unknown7]: weight distribution in a unique way or um have had like like showed that they've

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown7]: been living that they've lived in their bodies and who aren't just like perfect

[Unknown7]: perfect specimens because actually actually quite boring to draw

[Unknown7]: so

[Unknown6]: cause that's how you're taught right that you're taught with the perfect and some

[Unknown7]: yes

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown6]: so then you're like well i've already done this yes yeah oh that's really yeah

[Unknown7]: yeah and like some of the yeah the more fun

[Unknown6]: that i would never have thought of it that way

[Unknown7]: yeah so my dad

[Unknown6]: yes

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown7]: not a not a perfect body but uh

[Unknown7]: and

[Unknown7]: yeah what i'm not that familiar with because he

[Unknown7]: we weren't a particularly naked family growing up so i haven't seen him with a

[Unknown7]: shirt off since i was a kid and so it was an interesting exchange with him when i

[Unknown7]: would go home for holidays and he would sit and i would draw him and then take my

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown7]: drawings back to the uk and model him from that

[Unknown7]: it was in yeah

[Unknown7]: and i sorry you asked about drapery

[Unknown6]: how did that

[Unknown6]: go

[Unknown6]: no no like i well i mean this is part of it like i because there's definitely you

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown6]: seem to be fascinated with i and i could be all wet here but like there's a lot of

[Unknown6]: cloth and then your discussion about human skin it seems to connect and so that's

[Unknown6]: i mean you're talking about human skin like this it's definitely answering my

[Unknown6]: question

[Unknown6]: so tell me a little bit about the cloth side of it

[Unknown7]: yeah and everything is just about how like

[Unknown7]: yeah i think everything is just i'm interested in i mean there's obviously the the

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown7]: trick of trying to make something

[Unknown7]: that soft and pliable look soft pliable in a very hard material and a hard

[Unknown7]: permanent material so there's the yeah the optical illusion of that which is fun

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown7]: and there's also like yeah it's it's nice to

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown7]: um

[Unknown7]: explore how gravity affects certain things um

[Unknown6]: probably

[Unknown7]: and

[Unknown7]: drapery is i mean in like renaissance italy they would have and they probably

[Unknown7]: still do because they're kind of miles ahead of us in many ways but italian

[Unknown7]: sculptors would have people who were only

[Unknown7]: they were masters of one specific type of carving there'd be one guy who would do

[Unknown7]: the hair one guy who would do the face and like one guy who would do the drapery

[Unknown6]: oh wow

[Unknown7]: and that would be all you would do

[Unknown7]: and it's very much an art an art in itself and i i think i became really

[Unknown6]: and how do you think i became

[Unknown7]: fascinated with it with it when i was in in art school and um yeah kind of

[Unknown6]: when i was in my school and

[Unknown7]: badgered my tutors to let me do it maybe maybe against better advice of studying

[Unknown7]: sort of historical ornament which is obviously very useful but yeah i've always

[Unknown7]: been fascinated by it and just the way that the the treatment of it in stone

[Unknown7]: always looks just it always looks amazing

[Unknown6]: yeah and i also noticed and this is like okay so i did my bachelor's in history so

[Unknown6]: that's about the extent of my sculpting knowledge so i know that for the you know

[Unknown6]: classically they didn't put eyes in right and i noticed that you did is there a

[Unknown7]: okay

[Unknown6]: reason that you decided that you have decided to put eyes in what's the thought

[Unknown6]: process behind putting eyes into a statue

[Unknown7]: i think historically

[Unknown7]: i'm not sure if this was across the board

[Unknown7]: but i mean the stone

[Unknown6]: i've been wrong before so feel free to correct me

[Unknown7]: no well i'm i know some of them were just left

[Unknown7]: i'm not really sure

[Unknown7]: some

[Unknown7]: bus and portraits would have been painted so they would have painted the eyes in

[Unknown7]: and that is one reason i'm not sure if that's always the reason but in classical

[Unknown6]: oh okay

[Unknown7]: sculpture that's one reason um

[Unknown7]: and then when you get towards the

[Unknown6]: about

[Unknown7]: towards the medieval period and then to the renaissance they started putting

[Unknown7]: pupils in

[Unknown7]: and

[Unknown7]: yeah i think i've just never i don't know if i have a really good answer for that

[Unknown6]: i

[Unknown6]: i live

[Unknown7]: i think i always just feel that if you're trying to make something look as

[Unknown7]: realistic as possible you want to give it i mean i'll usually leave it until the

[Unknown7]: very end and then it once you put the eyes in then that really is what it grounds

[Unknown7]: grounds the peace and gives it presence hopefully

[Unknown7]: if you're successful with it

[Unknown6]: yeah so you're you're talking here and i think this is a great segue what is your

[Unknown6]: goal when you're creating a sculpture so you know so obviously it's not like just

[Unknown6]: recreating the past right like a lot of what you're doing is some kind of

[Unknown6]: realistic representation do you have

[Unknown6]: what are you trying to do when you when you look at somebody and you try and

[Unknown6]: recreate that

[Unknown7]: sorry do you mean like for a portrait or just for like a piece in general

[Unknown6]: i let's say for a peace in general what if you have like a general philosophy of

[Unknown6]: art even

[Unknown7]: um

[Unknown6]: no i know there's no there's nothing controversial about this at all right yeah

[Unknown7]: i think i

[Unknown7]: i'm always just trying to sort of question

[Unknown7]: what

[Unknown7]: what sort of area i haven't explored fully yet um

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown7]: and i try and

[Unknown7]: like when i was in college and i think even now like i'm very aware that there are

[Unknown7]: like many gaps in my knowledge and

[Unknown7]: it's important to try things that scare you and things that you might not think

[Unknown7]: may even work in stone and you try and push certain stones further than is perhaps

[Unknown7]: perhaps wise

[Unknown6]: that's right

[Unknown7]: and

[Unknown7]: i think stone carving in particular

[Unknown7]: probably more than other kinds of sculpture because it's such a multi step process

[Unknown7]: and it takes so long to make anything

[Unknown7]: and i suppose not that many people do it

[Unknown7]: it's not really had to evolve in terms of like

[Unknown7]: in terms of like a conceptual way the way other mediums have had to

[Unknown7]: if you look at um pe like painters

[Unknown7]: it's not enough just to be able to make something that looks beautiful or it's not

[Unknown7]: even just enough to make a landscape or a portrait of someone you have to like

[Unknown7]: that medium has been has been forced to evolve in order to stay relevant and i

[Unknown7]: think stone covers

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown7]: maybe haven't had that same impetus and i mean stone is no longer a primary

[Unknown7]: building material

[Unknown7]: and

[Unknown7]: we can like there especially in london there's so many old buildings that need

[Unknown7]: restoration and so

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown7]: i think if i had an ethos or a motivation it's to try and push the medium forward

[Unknown7]: it's not just about

[Unknown7]: i think a lot of i i mean i went through this of just like when you learn how to

[Unknown6]: what

[Unknown7]: copy something

[Unknown6]: hobbies

[Unknown7]: or you learn how to carve something for the first time and you're like look i did

[Unknown7]: it i carved a thing and it's amazing like yay

[Unknown6]: okay

[Unknown7]: give me all the awards and

[Unknown6]: all the awards

[Unknown7]: i think we have

[Unknown7]: just give me everything um you're welcome all of you and i think

[Unknown7]: i think for for the for the r form to survive because it's so i tell so many

[Unknown6]: hmm

[Unknown7]: people that i'm a stone cover and they're like i didn't even know that that

[Unknown7]: existed

[Unknown7]: so i think if we want to stay relevant then we've got we got to keep pushing it

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown7]: and it has to be about more than just like i carved a thing it has to be something

[Unknown7]: bit more than that

[Unknown6]: so what are you exploring exactly do you have like a name for that thing that

[Unknown6]: you're exploring is it the medium itself is it some kind of connection between you

[Unknown7]: what do you like

[Unknown6]: and the culture

[Unknown7]: i think

[Unknown6]: um

[Unknown7]: i like i always love it when

[Unknown6]: it was

[Unknown7]: a piece of art doesn't give you

[Unknown6]: does

[Unknown6]: you know

[Unknown7]: everything that you need in order to understand it or you don't sense that the

[Unknown7]: artist is trying to like be like this is what this means and you must feel this

[Unknown6]: this

[Unknown7]: emotion when you look at it

[Unknown7]: i think i there's like certain elements that i would like to include i i think it

[Unknown7]: has to has to be well balanced the composition has to be like beautiful and

[Unknown7]: graceful

[Unknown6]: face

[Unknown7]: it's yeah it has to be effective as a piece of as a as a visual spectacle um

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown6]: i

[Unknown6]: yes

[Unknown7]: it has to have some

[Unknown7]: some sort of tie to the past whether that be including ornament or

[Unknown6]: that

[Unknown7]: or something like that and it also

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown7]: i like to leave as much texture on my work as possible because i think that that

[Unknown7]: just makes it that much more interesting it makes you want to come up and touch it

[Unknown7]: and it always makes me really sad when

[Unknown6]: but

[Unknown7]: if i

[Unknown6]: like

[Unknown7]: um have work in an art show then there's always like new touching signs everywhere

[Unknown7]: and like that's such a big part i can understand people not wanting you to touch a

[Unknown7]: painting

[Unknown6]: right right

[Unknown7]: that's that's a big no no i've been told

[Unknown7]: but stone carving especially like that that should be explored like in a tactile

[Unknown7]: way i think

[Unknown6]: that was something i meant to ask you about because i i noticed you left that you

[Unknown7]: so i think my like

[Unknown6]: left that rougher texture that's really interesting

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown6]: also how much my four and six year old would love touching yeah yeah so tactile

[Unknown7]: you want some you want it to draw you in

[Unknown6]: that's i i like uh my take my four year old anywhere with with art is a holy

[Unknown6]: terror so to have something that you know hopefully it'd be a big enough piece he

[Unknown6]: couldn't knock it over that would that might be an issue but

[Unknown6]: yeah that's and i think that appeals to all of us that that idea of like involving

[Unknown6]: more than just our eyes and um

[Unknown6]: i think there's something very human about the desire to touch that's really

[Unknown6]: fascinating

[Unknown7]: yeah if i ever have a solo show then yeah touching will be encouraged

[Unknown6]: really interesting uh do you think do you think there are any consequences uh and

[Unknown6]: do you do you see this when you're interacting with people you know people tend to

[Unknown6]: be on their phones there is like kind of getting drawn into the digital world

[Unknown6]: do you feel any loss with that kind of prioritization of different senses like

[Unknown6]: obviously touch is not as big a deal in the digital world do you ever feel that

[Unknown6]: when you're talking to people

[Unknown7]: i mean i i mean as it relates to my work maybe

[Unknown6]: i you know i didn't really

[Unknown6]: i

[Unknown7]: i

[Unknown6]: i

[Unknown7]: i think i maybe always and maybe just because i

[Unknown7]: uh i'm really excited about my job and i want everyone to be

[Unknown7]: but there's always that moment when you meet someone for the first time and you

[Unknown7]: tell them that you're a stone curer and you either see their eyes completely glaze

[Unknown7]: over or they get a panic look in their eye because they don't actually know what

[Unknown7]: that is and they don't know what to ask and they don't want to look stupid and so

[Unknown7]: i've learned when i was younger i'd be like and a stone carver and then wait for

[Unknown7]: the silence and follow a follow up question and be like yes

[Unknown7]: and now i have to say i'm a stone cover and then follow that up with a monologue

[Unknown7]: about in for four hundred bc uh they built the parthenon and

[Unknown7]: um

[Unknown7]: you like it's you don't really have a basis of reference um the way someone who is

[Unknown7]: an accountant or a doctor or teacher would have so you have to sort of like on the

[Unknown6]: mm

[Unknown7]: flag gauge someone's level of engagement with you and hope that they're into it

[Unknown7]: and if they're not then hopefully they will just like walk away um

[Unknown7]: portland stone comes from which is a fairly sort of like medium density limestone

[Unknown7]: but uh i think because

[Unknown7]: like i mean there's yeah you have to obviously promote yourself and take pictures

[Unknown7]: of your work and exist

[Unknown7]: in a digital space as well but my day to day life is incredibly tactile and very

[Unknown6]: i

[Unknown7]: immediate and so you want everyone else to be excited about that

[Unknown7]: and want to know more and

[Unknown7]: um

[Unknown7]: so yeah the like the best conversations are

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown7]: when people just ask unexpected things or

[Unknown7]: even just admit that they have no idea what that involves butt just sort of prompt

[Unknown7]: you to keep going which is very nice

[Unknown6]: well well i'm glad i got the intro video before i got to talk to you then you know

[Unknown6]: so i like i got to see

[Unknown6]: i showed your website to my wife and she was like that's super bad ass like you

[Unknown6]: have like the the mask and everything it's not like you know like people think of

[Unknown6]: like the chisel and the the hammer and you have like clouds of smoke around um

[Unknown6]: it's a fascinating art form to me is so cool uh when you

[Unknown6]: so forgive me this is a question that occurs to me because i'm in central florida

[Unknown7]: j

[Unknown6]: and i'm surrounded by i'm kind of in an a retirement area of florida so there's a

[Unknown6]: lot of old people and often art is a considered like a hobby or like aa form of

[Unknown6]: therapy even

[Unknown7]: what

[Unknown6]: and as such it is often not taken very seriously right they have art shows here

[Unknown6]: but it's like a bunch of like old ladies doing like the same tree or a beach scene

[Unknown6]: you know

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown6]: what what

[Unknown6]: that you understand what i'm talking about the

[Unknown6]: where does this seriousness come

[Unknown6]: and what is the value that you bring as an artist to the world

[Unknown7]: that is that is a very big question

[Unknown6]: yes and no i know it's okay take your time that's not that that i i believe there

[Unknown6]: is value and i mean i honestly i've done a lot of my philosophy and philosophy of

[Unknown6]: art so like this is an important question to me but i also i'm not i've done some

[Unknown6]: writing but i'm not like a great artist so i'm very interested in your perspective

[Unknown6]: on that like when you do art why is it important to you

[Unknown6]: oh

[Unknown7]: i mean i think i

[Unknown6]: i

[Unknown7]: to reference the video that you saw of me

[Unknown7]: i think i

[Unknown7]: i've always i've always been searching for uh

[Unknown6]: i've always i really

[Unknown7]: ever since i was little even if it didn't come in a like specifically artistic

[Unknown7]: form

[Unknown7]: i've always like danced and acted and sang and

[Unknown6]: that

[Unknown7]: wro like really terrible vampire fiction when i was thirteen i've always like

[Unknown7]: needed a creative outsource like um some kind of creative output and i think when

[Unknown6]: mm

[Unknown7]: i found stone carving um

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown7]: i just immediately knew that that was like i needed to find some way of being able

[Unknown7]: to do that

[Unknown7]: and other forms of

[Unknown6]: i um

[Unknown7]: sculpture for some reason i mean it you have to be versatile if you want to make

[Unknown7]: it as any kind of artist these days you need to have multiple skill sets and as a

[Unknown7]: stone carver i need to be able to um

[Unknown7]: i mean i have a a job coming up that will involve i'll have to go to site and take

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown6]: something

[Unknown7]: a mold of something that has been become damaged and then take the mold back to my

[Unknown6]: sighs the po that

[Unknown7]: workshop and make a cast and then model something onto that cast and so given i

[Unknown7]: work in restoration quite a bit and so each job is a

[Unknown7]: has its own unique problem solving ability and you have to be able to say like yes

[Unknown7]: i know how to do that and i can give you the product that you asked for

[Unknown7]: and so when it comes to like my own personal work i think that drive still exists

[Unknown6]: so

[Unknown7]: because

[Unknown7]: and there has to be there has to be a reason to carry on doing this that's to be a

[Unknown6]: that music

[Unknown7]: reason to sort of put these things out in the world and expect people to come and

[Unknown7]: look look at them and like me and my colleagues we spend a lot of time it's a

[Unknown6]: like

[Unknown6]: like probably

[Unknown7]: quite a solitary job and we spend a lot of time just covered in dusted not like

[Unknown7]: their days that go by when i don't speak to that many people and

[Unknown6]: school

[Unknown7]: but then the opposite of that is you need to

[Unknown7]: need to share the work and show people what's possible

[Unknown6]: mm yeah i and it's such a it's such an odd pressure that everyone has to be their

[Unknown6]: own marketer now

[Unknown6]: and it's kind of unfair because you really have to do two different jobs or you

[Unknown6]: have to like make it so big which is not always under your control right like

[Unknown6]: someone has to like see you and pick you up to where you can hire someone to do

[Unknown6]: that for you that's very very difficult

[Unknown6]: as a kind of person who does that for people that's it's a lot of work

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown7]: and artists are notoriously terrible of that

[Unknown6]: yeah and

[Unknown6]: right yeah because and i you know it's funny i really i enjoyed learning and i

[Unknown6]: thought i would enjoy teaching and what i found is i am good at certain aspects of

[Unknown6]: teaching but what i'm really bad at is motivating other people to learn right

[Unknown6]: because i'm like you know like i like i don't like i'd have a kid in the back of

[Unknown6]: the class who wasn't paying attention and i'm like i i don't get it you know what

[Unknown6]: i mean i don't sympathize with that and i think part of the challenge for artists

[Unknown6]: right is you're like people like so what and you're like what do you mean so what

[Unknown6]: it's awesome how do you not see this like it's so obvious to you why it's

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown6]: beautiful

[Unknown6]: o'connor has a really good essay on this where she kept peacocks and she's like

[Unknown6]: there's just some people in the world some handy man came to the farm and was just

[Unknown6]: like why do you keep these things they're annoying they're loud and as he was

[Unknown6]: leaving the peacock spread its tail and he looked at it and she like looked at him

[Unknown6]: and looked at the tail was like waiting for that aha moment he was just like yeah

[Unknown6]: i don't get it and he just like walked off you know and she's like how do you like

[Unknown6]: how do you not get it um and so there is that like

[Unknown6]: there's always been that tension between like philosophy and art of

[Unknown6]: of justification when really i mean even if like someone could prove without a

[Unknown6]: doubt that art shouldn't exist people would still do it and that's why i think

[Unknown6]: like it doesn't really need justification

[Unknown6]: and i've heard that argument for i think there's something very real about that

[Unknown6]: there's is something in the human spirit that requires

[Unknown6]: what you do you the the beauty that uh you create

[Unknown6]: what do people

[Unknown6]: actually let me go with this question first you you mentioned being attracted to

[Unknown6]: the permanence of what you of what you do

[Unknown6]: is there something special about the way that the stone i mean you mentioned even

[Unknown6]: very early on this conversation the idea of press um do you mind expounding on

[Unknown6]: that a little bit

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown6]: well yeah um

[Unknown7]: portraiture

[Unknown7]: i

[Unknown7]: i think that's one of the reasons i

[Unknown7]: i mean i mentioned sort of the multi step process that's involved in making at

[Unknown6]: uh i bet you

[Unknown7]: least that i take in making it a carving

[Unknown7]: you start with sketches and then you move into clay and the clay is where you work

[Unknown6]: it's

[Unknown7]: out all the problems you might have with it and in terms of composition and if you

[Unknown7]: want to change something around it's quite easy and we had

[Unknown7]: a teacher who used to sort of come up to you and you just finished making

[Unknown7]: something that you thought was amazing and she just sort of like take a cheese

[Unknown7]: wire and just cut the face off of it and and then tell you to start again just to

[Unknown7]: like teach you not to be precious about it and obviously that's a horrifying

[Unknown6]: i see that before

[Unknown7]: moment but it does help um in terms of sort of teaching you that like if something

[Unknown7]: is incorrect at that stage you need to fix it because you can't change it once

[Unknown6]: interact

[Unknown7]: it's in the stone you don't want to be working that out in a permanent in a

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown7]: permanent form and like i get the question a lot of like well what happens if you

[Unknown7]: make a mistake and you're like well that's that's it that's the point

[Unknown7]: it's it's there

[Unknown7]: and you work around it or

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown7]: or you quit and do something else

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown7]: but and like different kinds of stone have different

[Unknown6]: it's a very expensive mistake

[Unknown7]: so expensive

[Unknown7]: yeah i think they always imagine that it's like that scene in aladdin where the on

[Unknown7]: the magic carpet and they fly by the sphinx and there's a guy just like chiseling

[Unknown7]: the nose and it just breaks off and i have to give a really boring answer which is

[Unknown7]: like actually once you get to that stage of like fine detail you're using like a

[Unknown7]: tiny chisel and so it's very rare like it's very unlikely that uh you will make a

[Unknown7]: mistake of that level and they're never very satisfied with that they always want

[Unknown6]: have you have you ever done that

[Unknown7]: to imagine that like

[Unknown6]: have you ever done that though have you ever made that big of a mistake

[Unknown7]: no never never

[Unknown6]: oh alright

[Unknown6]: thought you were gonna tell us about the different types of stone though

[Unknown7]: yes

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown7]: um

[Unknown7]: yeah like the the limestone that i normally work with is

[Unknown6]: yeah the the light

[Unknown7]: has a very opaque surface and so it

[Unknown7]: you can sort of play around with texture and shadow and it catches the light in a

[Unknown6]: what

[Unknown7]: really interesting way and um came look quite austere and dramatic and then if you

[Unknown6]: so

[Unknown7]: work in alabaster or marble then that diffuses the light and so you have a

[Unknown7]: completely different effect

[Unknown7]: if you did a portrait in marble versus in in limestone the marble portrait i mean

[Unknown7]: that's why it's it's marble so it's like it's always gonna be amazing and that's

[Unknown7]: why all the italian masters use it it's also local to them which is annoying

[Unknown7]: but you carve something in marble yeah it tends to look like it glows from within

[Unknown7]: and has a life of its own um which is always fascinating and yeah there is

[Unknown7]: something

[Unknown7]: uh

[Unknown7]: i think every every strong car maybe many every artist goes through

[Unknown7]: sort of roller coaster as you're making a piece of work we are like i this is the

[Unknown7]: most amazing thing i've ever made and then the next day you hate it and like want

[Unknown7]: to destroy it and then the next day is the best thing ever um and hopefully by the

[Unknown7]: end usually for me at least i'm pretty happy with the result at the end enough to

[Unknown7]: want to show it off and

[Unknown6]: good

[Unknown7]: and i think the probably the most exciting or the most satisfying part of my job

[Unknown7]: is is identifying an issue is like carving something to a state where i thought i

[Unknown6]: the

[Unknown7]: was finished and then being like that's not right and then going back into it and

[Unknown7]: fixing that problem and then having the desired result be like oh that was that

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown7]: was the issue with it

[Unknown7]: and that i that's i think how your

[Unknown7]: as you get as you gain more skill and more years as a carver that's how your skill

[Unknown7]: manifests itself it's not that you're just going to nail it every time it's that

[Unknown7]: you're able to reflect and not just carve the same thing over and over again

[Unknown7]: because

[Unknown7]: yeah like i carved some stuff in art school that i thought was amazing at the time

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown7]: and i look back at it now and i'm like yikes

[Unknown7]: and so if i'd peaked then then i wouldn't be very good at my job

[Unknown6]: right there's that continual growth which is just important part of life

[Unknown6]: can you give a concrete example of a piece where you've seen it it seemed finished

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown6]: and then you thought back on it how would you how would you change it like what

[Unknown6]: does that look like what's that process

[Unknown7]: for a finished piece

[Unknown6]: well at you met like uh do you have a specific piece you can talk about where

[Unknown6]: you've done that and you've been much happier with the after result

[Unknown6]: sorry put you a little bit on the spot there

[Unknown7]: just like going through just check my instagram quickly and try to remember what

[Unknown7]: i've done

[Unknown6]: yes yeah yeah yeah well if you want to talk a little bit more about the process

[Unknown6]: that's fine too if you can't think of a specific example off the top your head so

[Unknown7]: well i

[Unknown6]: like

[Unknown7]: this might be a slight deviation from your question but the piece i finished most

[Unknown6]: it might be a

[Unknown7]: recently is um a bust of a a woman

[Unknown6]: that's

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown7]: with

[Unknown7]: flowers growing out of her head and

[Unknown7]: i

[Unknown7]: i had it in my head for a little while and like i like such a big fan of salvador

[Unknown7]: dali i love surrealist art i love francis bacon

[Unknown7]: i love stuff that just like is a bit sort of

[Unknown7]: slightly off putting maybe and

[Unknown6]: that's pretty

[Unknown7]: um

[Unknown7]: that sort of plays with conventions and plays like has has roots in classical

[Unknown7]: class art and then sort of like just twisted very so slightly so i love the ser

[Unknown7]: dolly's painting women with head of flowers and so i wanted to do a bit of a play

[Unknown7]: on that in in stone and

[Unknown7]: so i did a portrait of a young woman and then uh initially just was adding like

[Unknown6]: what did you

[Unknown7]: just got some artificial flowers and sort of like was like gluing them to her a

[Unknown7]: face and glowing the petals in various ways and i didn't like i felt that was like

[Unknown7]: a after a while it lookeded interesting but it wasn't really getting the effect

[Unknown7]: that i wanted and

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown7]: so ik them all off and then

[Unknown7]: started looking at

[Unknown7]: some of the books i have on rococo and baroque arna ornament

[Unknown7]: which is

[Unknown7]: bananas it's like it's usually done in wood carving and work in wood carving which

[Unknown6]: it's

[Unknown7]: i'm not jealous of at all they can push woods in a way that we could never do in

[Unknown7]: stone because it has the grain in it and so you can have wood carvings that are

[Unknown7]: incredibly thin and finely detailed

[Unknown7]: and so most most rococo in baroque art ornament

[Unknown7]: that's finally detailed is from chip and deal furniture or

[Unknown7]: picture frames or mirror frames um

[Unknown7]: and

[Unknown7]: so it's sort of

[Unknown6]: but it

[Unknown7]: trying to think in that context of like trying to push stone a little bit farther

[Unknown6]: he

[Unknown7]: and so i ended up modeling a lot of baroque ornament and floral designs as they

[Unknown7]: were sort of growing out of her head and that ended up working a lot better

[Unknown6]: so you find so you often find inspiration in other forms so something like wood

[Unknown7]: yep so that was interest

[Unknown6]: carving and you're like okay how can i take that and that's part of your

[Unknown6]: exploratory efforts with stone

[Unknown6]: am i tracking with you there

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown7]: for sure and yeah i have a lot of friends who are wood carvers and so i'll go and

[Unknown6]: awesome

[Unknown7]: visit their workshops and sort of like

[Unknown7]: um be very

[Unknown7]: excited about the kinds of work that they're doing

[Unknown7]: and some of this is just i mean you can't carve stone to be a millimeter thick and

[Unknown7]: you can do that with wood which is very annoying

[Unknown7]: but

[Unknown7]: i think you can definitely i can definitely it definitely inspires me to try and

[Unknown7]: push down a little bit further

[Unknown6]: yeah absolutely um so kind of even going back to that that intro talking about

[Unknown7]: well

[Unknown6]: central fora art as therapy as hobby

[Unknown6]: so you do art all day what do you do to unwind

[Unknown6]: do you do more do you do more stone carving or do you do something else what do

[Unknown6]: you what do you do to relax

[Unknown7]: i

[Unknown7]: i am involved in a local theater a local amateur theater group

[Unknown7]: and um it so yeah it's really nerdy um but that's it's kind of the opposite of my

[Unknown6]: so

[Unknown7]: job

[Unknown7]: yeah i like yeah spend some days completely alone and uh it's very unglamorous and

[Unknown6]: that's a good

[Unknown6]: uh

[Unknown7]: um yeah very solitary and then you go from that to a theater space where you have

[Unknown7]: to develop a completely different skill set and be on display in a way that you're

[Unknown7]: not used to

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown7]: and uh

[Unknown7]: i'm directing a play that is gonna be on in april and

[Unknown6]: i

[Unknown7]: so having to be responsible for a group of people in that way is terrifying

[Unknown6]: i

[Unknown6]: high school

[Unknown7]: but yeah it's a nice they were both a nice compliment i think to each other

[Unknown6]: and

[Unknown6]: yeah getting that kind of social experience versus i get you know i mean it takes

[Unknown6]: hours what you do right and so you're you're alone all day and then to be able to

[Unknown6]: go out and

[Unknown6]: definitely a much more fluid medium acting versus something like stone carving

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown6]: you've mentioned a couple different schools of art do you is there any school of

[Unknown6]: art that you find yourself you mentioned surrealism with salvador dali

[Unknown6]: is there any schools of art that you tend to find yourself attracted towards or

[Unknown6]: are there any that you tend to you're like that's not really me in terms of what

[Unknown6]: you try and accomplish

[Unknown6]: or do you not think in those terms

[Unknown7]: i think i just

[Unknown6]: um

[Unknown6]: you just

[Unknown7]: yeah they're sort of

[Unknown6]: yes this with

[Unknown7]: i think the the thing i mean

[Unknown7]: when i was at university and studying history the courses that i

[Unknown6]: any thing oh

[Unknown6]: what you like um

[Unknown7]: were were sort of more drawn to um and i was not a very good student but the ones

[Unknown7]: that really captured my interest were the ones about medieval architecture so

[Unknown7]: that's that was sort of

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown7]: the basis of my my love of carving before i even knew that i wanted to be a carver

[Unknown7]: um and most of those cathedrals and churches that i studied are in england and so

[Unknown7]: i was able to visit them when i finally moved here which was nice

[Unknown7]: and

[Unknown7]: each

[Unknown7]: each era of architecture in britain maybe specifically um has their own

[Unknown7]: style and their own flare and their own way of sort of showing off what they can

[Unknown7]: do

[Unknown7]: and so yeah this

[Unknown6]: so yeah

[Unknown7]: is maybe a boring answer but i don't really have a favorite

[Unknown7]: i think it's nice to watch the evolution of how those

[Unknown7]: yeah the evolution of those

[Unknown6]: got

[Unknown7]: forms and you can see that in some cases not an

[Unknown7]: not an issue of a lack of skill in the carbs and coming face to face

[Unknown6]: how many

[Unknown7]: with that sometimes on old buildings it's incredibly humbling when you're like

[Unknown7]: these people were using chisels that didn't have tungsten

[Unknown6]: that's good

[Unknown7]: inserts in them to make them sharper and last longer and it wasn't in temperate

[Unknown7]: steel and they didn't have power tools and

[Unknown7]: and yet they were able to make these amazing things

[Unknown7]: yeah it sort of keeps you keeps you a bit humble which is good

[Unknown6]: and and obviously so for you you find inspiration kind of in a lot of different

[Unknown6]: places and even in that kind of exploratory effort right that's what you mentioned

[Unknown6]: with rococo when you're trying to push the stone itself which in some ways it

[Unknown6]: seems to be you're just trying to explore the medium itself that's an important

[Unknown6]: part of this to you you find inspiration in these different styles instead of

[Unknown6]: seeing as necessarily competing am i

[Unknown6]: tracking with you there

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown6]: oh awesome um

[Unknown6]: so

[Unknown6]: uh do you have uh when you

[Unknown6]: are finishing a piece and you say normally you're happy with the result what is

[Unknown6]: kind of the standard that you have in mind what would you say is your standard

[Unknown6]: excellence for stone carving

[Unknown6]: when do you decide like

[Unknown7]: just

[Unknown6]: i am i like this piece or i don't like this piece is there a set of criteria is

[Unknown6]: there a feeling that you get

[Unknown7]: i mean it's kind of kind of a joke among stone covers that like is never really

[Unknown7]: done

[Unknown7]: it's

[Unknown7]: it's done when

[Unknown6]: it's

[Unknown7]: the client needs it on site

[Unknown7]: and

[Unknown7]: i can't really i

[Unknown7]: don't know if i could describe there

[Unknown6]: i can't i

[Unknown7]: i mean there

[Unknown6]: be dirt

[Unknown7]: in a sort of like a mechanical way there at least

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown7]: how i work there's a series of steps that you take when you're finishing a piece

[Unknown7]: so you'll well or when you're even working on a piece you'll start with a block

[Unknown7]: and you

[Unknown7]: you will rough it out so you will get

[Unknown7]: you'll find all the high points on the sculpture and slowly work your way around

[Unknown7]: and not go into detail i think a lot of people think that when you carve something

[Unknown7]: you basically start like if you're carving a head you start with the nose and like

[Unknown7]: make the perfect nose and then like work your way would be like it was

[Unknown6]: yes

[Unknown7]: coming out of water um but you work the whole thing and it looks like a it looks

[Unknown7]: like a marshmallow forever um and i've had to get a lot better at sharing process

[Unknown7]: shots of my work

[Unknown7]: and like not be scared that people are gonna be like that looks like crap

[Unknown7]: because it

[Unknown7]: sort of deem it desi demystify the process is i finished stop

[Unknown6]: it's because it's not finished

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown7]: yelling at me

[Unknown7]: and sort of once it goes past you sort of slowly refine it

[Unknown6]: still the f

[Unknown7]: and refine it and refine it um

[Unknown7]: and you

[Unknown6]: and

[Unknown7]: always leave

[Unknown6]: um

[Unknown7]: you always try and work over it in a uniform way that you don't have any surprises

[Unknown7]: and you don't run out of stone in certain areas

[Unknown7]: and

[Unknown6]: you

[Unknown6]: don't just glue things bits back on sometimes

[Unknown7]: the last stage is you

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown7]: well yeah sometimes

[Unknown7]: and then the final stage is is undercutting so if you're

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown7]: carving ornaments or any kind of sort of decorative future than if you're coming

[Unknown7]: flowers for instance you'll carve the entire flower and then at the end you'll

[Unknown7]: carve underneath the leaves and underneath the petals to give the shadow

[Unknown7]: real

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown7]: definition and that's usually the last stage and so that's a fairly good gauge of

[Unknown7]: whether or not a piece is done

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown6]: and you mentioned we just touched on this a couple times you know you say i'm a

[Unknown6]: stone carver and people give you this look like

[Unknown6]: you know i i don't know how to handle this right

[Unknown7]: hm that's pretend

[Unknown6]: w

[Unknown7]: that's a pretend job

[Unknown6]: yes

[Unknown6]: oh that's

[Unknown6]: sorry that's that's a that's a funny answer do you ever do you ever say that to

[Unknown6]: people like i have a pretend job just

[Unknown7]: oh yeah

[Unknown6]: just like i i'm a yeah just i yeah no um

[Unknown6]: what are some of the funniest responses you've had to uh i'm a stone carver and

[Unknown6]: what are some of the most basic mi

[Unknown6]: conceptions people have about stone carving in general they if you could put out

[Unknown6]: into the world um and correct a few things that people just get wrong all the time

[Unknown6]: so that you can just be like just listen to this part and then you'll understand

[Unknown6]: please don't ask me that you know what would those things be

[Unknown7]: i mean i think

[Unknown6]: uh i didn't

[Unknown7]: probably the biggest one is is

[Unknown7]: um if people don't

[Unknown6]: uh

[Unknown7]: know what to ask them they'll they'll focus

[Unknown6]: po

[Unknown7]: on the

[Unknown7]: the risk that you take when you're covering something uh

[Unknown7]: permanent um so they'll concentrate on

[Unknown6]: good

[Unknown7]: the mistake and like the potential for mistakes and and oh i couldn't i couldn't

[Unknown7]: do that you're like well it's probably good you that you weren't doing that but

[Unknown7]: and i mean i like any

[Unknown6]: i

[Unknown7]: any question is is a welcome question

[Unknown7]: i think people

[Unknown7]: tend to think that

[Unknown7]: it's a much more romantic job than it actually is they sort of imagine i've gotten

[Unknown7]: this people sort of always mentioned the i think it's a quote that usually gets

[Unknown7]: attributed to michaelangelo of although i've heard it

[Unknown7]: attributed to someone's like grandpa before as well

[Unknown6]: what what

[Unknown7]: where like you

[Unknown7]: you like you don't carve

[Unknown7]: you don't carve an angel you just take away all the stone that's not the angel

[Unknown7]: then you free it from the stone and i think he he didn't say that because um

[Unknown7]: that's silly and if he did say that i can almost imagine that he was just kind of

[Unknown7]: tired of people like coming into his workshop and asking him questions and so he

[Unknown7]: just like was like he i don't know i just whatever please leave

[Unknown7]: so i think yeah they sort of imagine that it's just like this

[Unknown6]: this

[Unknown6]: um

[Unknown7]: sort of wild expression of creativity

[Unknown6]: do that

[Unknown7]: and arms are sort of wind milling at incredible speeds and we're all just crying

[Unknown7]: the whole time and

[Unknown7]: it's

[Unknown6]: oh y

[Unknown7]: the reality of it is quite

[Unknown7]: yeah it's takes a long time it's quite boring sometimes it's quite repetitive it's

[Unknown7]: physically very demanding um

[Unknown7]: and

[Unknown7]: sometimes

[Unknown7]: less appreciated than you would like um

[Unknown6]: he

[Unknown7]: and

[Unknown7]: yeah i think it's always

[Unknown7]: it's always nice to have people visit and actually see my workshop and see uh like

[Unknown7]: the tools that i use and

[Unknown7]: the modeling stands and the old clay models and the casts that we have

[Unknown7]: and like work in progress it's always nice to see

[Unknown7]: just to sort of

[Unknown7]: demystify it a bit and make it a bit more accessible

[Unknown6]: yeah it's funny cause the national geographic video has lots of shots with you

[Unknown6]: looking pristine with like a little chisel going like this and then right near the

[Unknown6]: end it just shows you the mask and all the bills of smoke is you're using a power

[Unknown6]: tool and it was like i have a feeling it looks like that a lot more than just

[Unknown7]: so

[Unknown6]: like always just you like stepping back and like doing little

[Unknown6]: like

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown6]: ticks with the with the chisel right like

[Unknown6]: i mean i'm sure that's part of it too but like people tend to think of it as like

[Unknown6]: yeah you're just weeping in joy as you like gently tap away at the statue and it's

[Unknown6]: just that

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown6]: kind of romantic view of like what the art what artistry is right

[Unknown7]: yeah and

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown7]: i yeah i had a uh some student filmmakers come to the workshop to visit who wanted

[Unknown7]: to use the space as a

[Unknown6]: that

[Unknown7]: um

[Unknown7]: as a sort of backdrop for a film they were doing and they were very

[Unknown7]: very disappointed because i think they really wanted to

[Unknown7]: to be like so like if you if you break up with someone you just then like hate

[Unknown7]: carve about the breakup for

[Unknown7]: for like months afterwards and like carve effigies of them and i was like i'm

[Unknown7]: really sorry

[Unknown7]: i felt sort of yeah i felt very disappointing to them and then after i got an

[Unknown7]: email from them being like we've decided not to film our film at your studio and i

[Unknown7]: was like okay that's fine i'm gonna put my dust mask back on

[Unknown6]: did they did not actually say hate carved did they actually say hate carve

[Unknown7]: not not specifically it was definitely implied

[Unknown7]: i was like i'm really i'm sensing what you want for me and i i can't give it to

[Unknown7]: you um i can't i can't lie

[Unknown6]: that's that's not how it happens oh

[Unknown7]: no

[Unknown6]: man that is so funny um

[Unknown6]: so trying to avoid that

[Unknown6]: the romantic sized view of what you do

[Unknown6]: as we kind of wrap things up here what would you leave our listeners with uh

[Unknown6]: what is it what do they need to understand about art what do you think is so

[Unknown6]: important for us as humans to express ourselves in these kind of ways

[Unknown6]: so not you know not hate carving but like uh what what is what you know i mean

[Unknown6]: talk to me about the value of even that repetition in that mastery i think that's

[Unknown6]: something that's

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown6]: come out a lot in what you're saying

[Unknown7]: what

[Unknown6]: what

[Unknown7]: i i was listening to a previous episode that you did with who's

[Unknown7]: harry

[Unknown6]: ma yes

[Unknown6]: well i can't i can't i won't pretender i say it right cause it's like harry malin

[Unknown7]: harry make yeah when he was talking about

[Unknown6]: you know i can't

[Unknown7]: harry macklin

[Unknown6]: yeah

[Unknown7]: and he

[Unknown7]: was talking about the raft of the madusa which is one of my favorite paintings and

[Unknown6]: i talk about

[Unknown7]: i found the way he described the effect of that painting

[Unknown6]: hm

[Unknown7]: really really interesting and

[Unknown7]: um

[Unknown7]: how the best

[Unknown6]: that

[Unknown7]: the best art

[Unknown7]: can

[Unknown7]: we will draw a bunch

[Unknown6]: a bunch of people

[Unknown7]: of people in and they will all have completely different reactions to it

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown7]: and

[Unknown7]: i think that's probably that i think that should be the goal of every artist and

[Unknown7]: that's definitely my goal that yeah that it sort of draws in the viewer and gets

[Unknown7]: them to um

[Unknown7]: yeah i get them to think about

[Unknown7]: things that are personal to them and if it makes them reflect on things that they

[Unknown7]: hadn't thought about i think those are the most satisfying moments i have with

[Unknown7]: with

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown7]: people when they respond to the work that i do is when

[Unknown7]: they they don't just say oh that's pretty which is i mean that's very nice to hear

[Unknown7]: but when they say oh that reminds me of this specific thing and was

[Unknown6]: hey

[Unknown7]: that your intention and i'm like well no but that's not

[Unknown7]: really that's it's like that's the point of it is that it um

[Unknown7]: that it forces you to think about something that you wouldn't normally think about

[Unknown6]: it draws people out and then in right like it creates something and that's really

[Unknown6]: the work of beauty and the the work that you do

[Unknown6]: any final thoughts for us as we kind of wrap up here obviously want people to

[Unknown6]: follow your instagram

[Unknown6]: will put link that in your site because this is gorgeous work really really a

[Unknown7]: thank you

[Unknown6]: fan you know i know i saw that several times but it's really it's something

[Unknown6]: special

[Unknown6]: so any any final thoughts

[Unknown7]: i think he just wherever um to everyone in general whatever city you live in it's

[Unknown7]: just always a good idea to to look up and notice

[Unknown7]: notice the buildings and notice how old they are and notice the the decorations on

[Unknown7]: them

[Unknown7]: cause they're yeah that's free you don't have to pay to see that

[Unknown6]: and a lot of hard work went into it and a lot of thought for the most part i mean

[Unknown6]: i obviously you know depends on what city you live in but there are always those

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown6]: special buildings i think in just about ebony city where you can see that now it's

[Unknown6]: a

[Unknown6]: what a great ending to to think about opening our eyes

[Unknown7]: yeah and it always makes me feel slightly

[Unknown7]: yeah sorry it always makes

[Unknown6]: sorry go ahead

[Unknown7]: me feel slightly

[Unknown7]: slightly unhinged when i think about the amount of work that goes into

[Unknown7]: like medieval

[Unknown7]: baroque

[Unknown7]: buildings it's like when you think about the vastness of space you're like how

[Unknown7]: many

[Unknown6]: facebook how

[Unknown7]: man hours and how much how

[Unknown6]: hours

[Unknown7]: many years went into making this and

[Unknown6]: hy

[Unknown7]: no one ever looks at it

[Unknown6]: it's just we

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown6]: get we grow bored yeah which is

[Unknown7]: yeah

[Unknown6]: which is kind of a phenomenal human capacity to grow bored when there's so much to

[Unknown6]: see yeah it's an amazing thing well thank you so much

[Unknown6]: and uh to our listeners if you enjoy the depth of our conversation

[Unknown6]: please like share and subscribe so someone else can too thank you again

[Unknown7]: thank you