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At some point in our lives we all get scared – of making the wrong decision, of not being a good parent, or that everyone will figure out we’re just making it up as we go.
I’ve spent years helping leaders work through fear, stress, and uncertainty. Now I’m making a podcast about how they face their fears and come out stronger.
It’s for founders, leaders, and business owners who feel like they’re constantly fighting uphill and not finding the balance they need to be effective at work and present at home.
Sally Ann Marie 00:00:01 I'm Sally Ann Marie and welcome to Fearless Forward, the podcast that asks leaders how they face their fears. Today, for the first time, we're going to Moscow, where I'm in conversation with one of the coaching profession's most expert practitioners. Mikhail Klarin has combined a long career in education and research, with a leading role in Russia's exponentially developing business sector over the past 25 years. He works internationally with CEOs, business founders and board members to help them solve their toughest problems, and his collaboration with numerous multinational companies in Russia has given him exceptional cross-cultural insight. Mikhail is a Doctor of Education, a full professor at Moscow City University, where he works on professional education design and author of ten books and hundreds of journal articles. 30 years ago, his increasing interest and involvement in learning and development for business led him to become one of Russia's very first executive coaches. He co-founded the Association of Russian Speaking Coaches and has made a huge contribution to the coaching profession's infrastructure. Today, alongside his academic work. He runs Mikhail Klarins Business lab, a practice focused primarily on supporting business owners, CEOs and boards through decision intensive situations.
Sally Ann Marie 00:01:24 His approach emphasizes systems thinking, field modeling, and pragmatic work with senior leaders. I don't give advice, he says. I explore what's really happening and find the thing that's going to work for you. In our conversation, we talk about his experience of navigating uncertainty and the fears he's overcome to commit wholeheartedly to his current work. So, Mikhail, you've seen more change and uncertainty in your lifetime than almost anyone listening to this. So what in all of that, has had the biggest impact on your life and work?
Mikhail Klarin 00:02:07 Well, first and foremost, it's the fall of the Soviet empire. Yeah.
Sally Ann Marie 00:02:12 And so what happened then, and how did it impact you directly?
Mikhail Klarin 00:02:18 well, a number of things, both political and economic and social. Well, I would say that the thing that affected me most was the social economic change and the rise of what then was called a market economy.
Sally Ann Marie 00:02:35 Okay. And at the time you were coaching, what were you doing in your life at that time?
Mikhail Klarin 00:02:40 Well, coaching did not exist at that time.
Mikhail Klarin 00:02:43 It was 91 and no coaching was around. No business consulting was around. No business training was around because all those are phenomena of the market economy. Yes, I led the life of a researcher. I could say a scholar. It was a so-called cabinet research. It was a theoretical study, and I was quite prominent at that time. And well, with the change that came in 1981, with the fall of the Soviet Union and the coming of the market economy, so-called the version that we had. Well, everything changed, including everything changed for me.
Sally Ann Marie 00:03:26 Yes. Can you describe a little bit what happened then for you, the choices that became available, the direction you decided to go in?
Mikhail Klarin 00:03:34 Oh, yes. I was going on with my scholarly career. I had my second thesis. In this country, we have a double system like the Germans have, which is doctrine Doktor B and B is the PhD, an advanced level PhD or post PhD. So I had it. But at the same time, I was very much interested in different sorts of things that came to Russia at that time.
Mikhail Klarin 00:04:02 And those were psychotherapeutic training programs and tea groups and management training. Everything flushed in suddenly.
Sally Ann Marie 00:04:15 Yeah, I can imagine.
Mikhail Klarin 00:04:16 And given my background, I was reading books in English. Books that were not around in Russian, were not translated, and there was not too much information about such things as NLP, for instance, just for instance, or developments in psychology. I was very much interested in that. So I was absorbing that, high speed, I would say. So I was going on with a wave that came and I was developing with the market itself. I would say so in mid 90s I went to work for a international American based company. Well, they came to Moscow and established here. So I started to work as a business trainer, management trainer, and I was developing myself as well. So I worked and was developing at the same time, and this was a very intensive growth.
Sally Ann Marie 00:05:22 I can imagine, I mean, so much change. And how did you feel about it? That's a big question, I know, but just a sense of how that was for you.
Mikhail Klarin 00:05:30 Well, I was enthusiastic. Well, for me this was a huge leap, a great opportunity to develop. Yes. I would not say that I had a clear goal or clear objective or clear vision of where I would develop or towards end point. No end point at that time. Just growth. Huge growth.
Sally Ann Marie 00:05:58 Yes. So huge growth opportunities. Streaming in. And a few years later you move into, I suppose, a corporate setting working for an international organization, global organization. What were you doing there?
Mikhail Klarin 00:06:14 Oh well, so the first company I was working for was the center for Business Skills Development here in Moscow. The thing was that working there it was for seven years, I immediately was immersed in a huge area that did not exist here before. So it wasn't new not only for me, but for the whole society and for the whole market, if we speak market wise. So it was the realm of international multinational companies, huge companies like Coke or Pepsi or British American Tobacco or whatever.
Mikhail Klarin 00:06:54 Just you name it, you name it. All companies were suddenly here in Russian markets, and everybody wanted the prevailing share of their segment. So they were very aggressive in high energy. So those were my first years of experience, and that was my first immediate experience with multinational companies, with corporate sector. A bit later I had experience with the NGO sector as well. But this was later.
Sally Ann Marie 00:07:27 Yes. So what did you make of that. I mean as you say it was your first experience. Companies were flocking in looking for the market share. You saw an opportunity and you went for it. But what did you make of all of that at the time, given how new it must have felt?
Mikhail Klarin 00:07:43 Well, one of the the feelings and attitudes I would say I had at the time was something that now is called an imposter syndrome, because this was an entirely new area for me and just a new world, absolutely new world. But I would not call it an imposter syndrome. And I don't like this idea and these words because it's the other side of growth.
Mikhail Klarin 00:08:13 If you grow, that's it. There you are. Yes. So at that time, I was not feeling like an imposter, but the feeling like that, dealing with something new, not knowing exactly what it is and or exactly how you should go about it. This is something that now is called an imposter syndrome. It's good marketing for those who do it and who make money on it. But for me, that's a backlash.
Sally Ann Marie 00:08:44 I mean, you were in a period of growth, but was there ever any moment where you doubted yourself, that you doubted that you had a right to be there? That you had something extremely useful to offer, which you did, I imagine. Did you feel that sense of imposter, which is about not deserving a seat at the table? Did you ever feel that?
Mikhail Klarin 00:09:02 Well, not exactly, but not deserving something that I was getting, but rather being not sure that that was. And sometimes it still is there because I am doing a number of new and new things.
Sally Ann Marie 00:38:58 It still is. It's never ending, I imagine. So in all of that, if I made a step back to where we started this conversation, the breakup of the Soviet Union, where your life changed, opportunities emerged that had previously not been available to you. All of that journey of the last 30 plus years.
Sally Ann Marie 00:39:18 Can you identify through that journey moments where you were afraid, you know, where you experienced fear, needed to move through it? I can imagine there might have been many, but perhaps not. But I'm curious in all of the change that you've experienced.
Mikhail Klarin 00:39:34 I would say that what we call fear had many different aspects or phases for me. Well, one was fear of uncertainty when I was entering an absolutely new field. That is all my previous life, before the mid-nineties, I was working in in one in the same place. Yes, in a research institute. And I was doing my PhD. Then I was doing my second level PhD. I was writing articles, I was writing monographs, I wrote articles for the encyclopedia, which actually I go on doing all of them articles and etc. in parallel. Yeah, but that was my only occupation at that time. Now I quit the institute and I went to work for a multinational company, and I entered an absolutely new world of, of the markets and the competition and services.
Mikhail Klarin 00:40:36 The words that were not there in the Soviet Union. You did not have the word market except for the flea market or what kind of physical markets? Yes, but not in a way it is the economics or in business. We had no word for business except for like Western countries do have businesses like that, but not around. So no business, no market, no market economy, no competition, etc. no service was something like a foreign word. But then it was in in mid 90s. For me, this was entering an absolute new world with new words okay, okay, new concepts, new words, new practices. And I entered it not as an observer, but as an actor.
Sally Ann Marie 00:41:29 Indeed, you were doing it.
Mikhail Klarin 00:41:32 This was interesting and frightening at the same time.
Sally Ann Marie 00:41:36 Of course. So the balance, I suppose, the kind of combination, alignment of excitement and fear, you know, trepidation must have been both.
Mikhail Klarin 00:41:48 Well, yes. So this was one place of fear that I had.
Mikhail Klarin 00:41:53 Another was uneasiness when I was trying to explain what I was doing at the time to my parents. They were absolutely worried for me and I. I could not really explain that this not not because I, I lacked the power of explanation, but they were absolutely unacquainted with the concepts or practices. Yes, they never experienced anything like that in their lives, and very much worried that I'm working in a in a foreign company. And there was huge fear of everything foreign and in the Soviet Union, and for good reasons, actually with people from abroad, you for sure not you could, but you would definitely be under close attention Of the KGB and further on and further on and before you could just get to chill a bit before. So I was having a hard time telling them in the first place and then explaining them to me in the second place, what I was doing.
Sally Ann Marie 00:43:02 And over time, did they come round to it and feel less fearful as they saw that perhaps their worst fears wouldn't necessarily be realised? Did that change for them?
Mikhail Klarin 00:43:15 Well, I would say no.
Mikhail Klarin 00:43:18 No.
Sally Ann Marie 00:43:20 Okay.
Mikhail Klarin 00:43:21 To the very end. No. It was something strange for them. Something outside of their scope, something beyond them.
Sally Ann Marie 00:43:30 I understand that must have been hard for you. Was it?
Mikhail Klarin 00:43:33 Well, there was a strain. Definitely. And. Well, I had to deal with that. Yeah. And now yet another kind of or another. Another face of fear was and still is with me. When I started dealing with this area of the unknown, with this absolutely different and strange practice, because I'm, I'm a person of, you know, of the academia, not hard sciences though my training was in physics, but now I work in the humanities and social sciences. But the thing is that still it is in academia. And this kind of work that I described is beyond that as well.
Sally Ann Marie 00:44:14 Yes, indeed.
Mikhail Klarin 00:44:15 Even beyond the realm of the social sciences and humanities. So I really had some fear of making this visible.
Sally Ann Marie 00:44:24 Yes. Did you feel that your reputation would in some way be undermined by this? People wouldn't take you seriously anymore.
Sally Ann Marie 00:44:32 I mean, did some of your colleagues sort of challenge the work that you were doing? Is that what you experienced?
Mikhail Klarin 00:44:37 Oh, exactly.
Sally Ann Marie 00:44:39 So you pursued it. You didn't allow the fear of all of that to stop you.
Mikhail Klarin 00:44:45 Oh I didn't.
Sally Ann Marie 00:44:46 You continued.
Mikhail Klarin 00:44:47 I did pursue this, but I'm telling you that this is yet another phase of fear that I had. It was uneasiness. It's not physical fear. Again, this is kind of mental. But, yeah, I did have this uneasiness, and I think I have overcome or am overcoming it because it's still there. It's with me. I realize it's it sounds and looks strange. People do look at me. Well, I would say in surprise.
Sally Ann Marie 00:45:19 Okay. So can you see a future in which this is somehow normalized? So you gather enough evidence, enough proof to demonstrate?
Mikhail Klarin 00:45:29 Well, I would not see that this is enough for those who have skepticism, because what would be enough would be a very definite data from research and studies.
Mikhail Klarin 00:45:43 Yeah, and I don't know how much time would be needed for that.
Sally Ann Marie 00:45:48 Yes, quite.
Sally Ann Marie 00:09:19 Okay. So always learning, always innovating. Always creating.
Mikhail Klarin 00:09:24 Learning is one thing, but doing, doing then you take responsibility.
Sally Ann Marie 00:09:30 That's very true. And you haven't stopped doing that. You know, here we are 30 years later, and it's never stopped, has it? That's my understanding from when I knew you, when we lived in Moscow all those years ago. and speaking to you now. You've never stopped learning.
Mikhail Klarin 00:09:47 Oh, no. Well, I was one of the first people who introduced business and management training here in this country. Yes, I was doing it myself. I was practicing it. I wrote a book about it. One of the first in Russia by Russian authors. There is not translated book. And then I was also among the first who later introduced coaching to the country and shaped the Association of Professional Association of Russian Speaking Coaches. And later I was one of very few people, just extremely few, who were doing an absolutely new type of work. I adapted constellation work for business purposes, for the business area, and practically, I think I'm still nearly the only one who is doing that.
Sally Ann Marie 00:10:41 Well, let's get into that, because this is immensely interesting how you have taken constellation work, as you put it, and adapted it for business. Can you tell us more about that? Why did you consider it to be a good idea? What inspired you to do that and how you've put it into practice?
Mikhail Klarin 00:10:58 Well, I came to know this area of practice. Actually, this stemmed from therapeutic practice, family therapy, systemic family therapy. It was 25 years ago, or nearly 25, in 2004. And this looked like magic. Really. It still is even now.
Sally Ann Marie 00:11:19 It still does. Okay.
Mikhail Klarin 00:11:22 Well, just imagine several people in the room, or a number of people in the room and somebody is telling their story. And then the facilitator takes several people who represent different significant others from the family system, including those who are not living anymore. Including something quite abstract, like the spirit of the family or destiny. Just imagine that. And those figures start to move, and they start to talk.
Mikhail Klarin 00:11:54 And they somehow they say things that were not told by the client who presented their story, but still, for some reason or for no reason at all. They know it. They say things that were relating people in the family to each other. Something that was out of sight. Something that was 20 or 50 or 100 years ago. It does look like magic, but when you check it, people see that it's real. So this kind of practice looked really fascinating, and I wanted to see if I can use it for business purposes.
Sally Ann Marie 00:12:37 Yes.
Mikhail Klarin 00:12:38 So this was brought here by people from Germany, Austria and the Netherlands, and I learned from them. And then I was adapting what I learned to the business acumen. And then it turned out that it works fantastically well.
Sally Ann Marie 00:12:57 Can you give us an early example of where you realized how useful and impactful this approach was in a business context?
Mikhail Klarin 00:13:06 Well, I can give just a case example.
Sally Ann Marie 00:13:09 Okay.
Mikhail Klarin 00:13:10 Well just imagine two people came to me a director general CEO and financial director.
Mikhail Klarin 00:13:16 They are co-owners of the company. At the same time, they are top managers of the company. And they say, Mikhail, we were told that you were doing interesting things, and you can look at the hidden sides of the events and phenomena, and we want you to tell us about the situation in our market segment. Okay. So it's a competitive market segment, they said. And I did not ask them for any information, something that I would ask them about. Extensively about 20 years ago when I was working as a business consultant, I would be asking them questions for a couple of hours at least. Yes, but here I did not. The only thing I asked was how many key players are there in the segment? Well, they told me eight. Okay, I said, then make a list. One. Two. Three. Four. Eight. They made it. They know what number stands for which company I don't I don't even know the companies. I don't have information about this market segment and actually, I'm not even interested.
Mikhail Klarin 00:14:30 What kind of market this segment is from? Okay, so it looks strange already, right?
Sally Ann Marie 00:14:38 It's not mainstream, let's put it that way, is it? But tell us more.
Mikhail Klarin 00:14:42 Absolutely not. So we have numbers one, two, three, four, eight stickers. And the list is with those two people. And then I have a group of my assistants, thoroughly trained good colleagues who are trained in that. And they are in the neighboring room. So they didn't hear even this. So I know next to nothing, they know pure nothing. And they come. They are told nothing. They are given those stickers with the numbers so that we can see what they do and hear what they say and know what number says this or does it does this. So they come into the central ground and start to move and speak. It does look pretty enigmatic, Mildly speaking.
Sally Ann Marie 00:15:35 I can imagine. Yes.
Mikhail Klarin 00:15:37 So. Well, for example, one of them is taking a chair and sits back in a very lazy way.
Mikhail Klarin 00:15:47 You know, like a cat on a chair, semi liquid. I would say, okay, this tells something, but what does it tell? I have no idea about specific information, but I see the dynamics and I ask the people whispering those two. I say, listen guys, does this say something to you? And they say, Mikhail, it's very exact symbol of what this company is doing in the market. They are really lazy cat, big fat cat. They grab their portion of the market early in 1990s. And since then, through the years. They behaved like this. They feel like it's theirs. Like everything is theirs. This is their way of a mocking behavior.
Sally Ann Marie 00:16:41 What I'm hearing is a kind of entitlement myth. Is that what you're saying?
Mikhail Klarin 00:16:45 Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And now. Okay. This is not anything new for them. It's interesting to have a look at that. But it's nothing new yet. But then I noticed that there are two figures standing in front of each other.
Mikhail Klarin 00:17:00 Say numbers three and four. And they start looking very aggressively at each other, and they start exchanging very aggressive statements like, I will kill you, I will demolish you, etc. so the dynamic is clear and I ask them if it rings the bell for them and they say, yeah. Number three is us, our company. Number four, our biggest competitor. And we do have a very bad relationship in the market. That's the kind of stance we're in, in the market, in our relationship. Okay. And then I notice another figure number five standing by the figure three, which is the customer's company. And this figure walks a little bit away from number three, stands in equal distance from each of those two figures and says okay, they will. Sorry to say that they will focus shorter and I will have a look and see. And the one that will win, I will go with them. That is a very interesting dynamics already something new. And I ask them, now listen guys, is this telling you something? And they look at each other.
Mikhail Klarin 00:18:16 Well sort of thermo surprised, even bewildered. And one of them says, you know, Mikhail, this is our business partner. And then one of them says to the other. Early this year. Do you remember? I told you it's something strange that I doing? Strange, really? And you said, well, that's nothing. That's nothing. No no no no. Don't pay attention. And the other says, yes, I do remember that was something strange. And you did tell me. Interesting. Now we should have a look at them. So. Well, that's an example. I would say this is kind of a business intelligence, just a very specific and very unusual kind of business intelligence.
Sally Ann Marie 00:19:01 Well, I'm just wondering is it's an intelligence which gives insight into the way of thinking, the way of looking at things, the way of doing things. You know, the culture, I suppose, of the organization. Right. Is that what you're aiming at?
Mikhail Klarin 00:19:14 not exactly. If I look into the organization, it would be exactly this.
Mikhail Klarin 00:19:19 Yes, but I'm looking not only into organizations, but rather at businesses in the markets. So it's not about the culture internally. It's about what happens in the market and maybe also in the industry. So the scale is very different. It might be very different. It could be smaller scale like between people, specific people in the project. It may be between the projects. It may be a different scale between departments, between companies in the industry and even in the society.
Sally Ann Marie 00:19:51 What I'm, if I've understood correctly, what determines the scope is how the client in this case responds to what is happening in front of what messages they receive from that, or how they interpret the behaviours and reactions of the people in your team. Have I understood that correctly?
Mikhail Klarin 00:20:10 Well, yes. I thought about this really. And first I wanted to check if this was kind of individual perception and interpretation. Then I discovered that not everything might be ascribed to interpretation. For example, the hostile interaction between companies. It was evidently hostile.
Mikhail Klarin 00:20:37 So it no other kind of interpretation could be there. It was just there. But I had no prior information. I did not know which number would stand for which company. And that was exactly the worst competitor that they had, the most hostile competitor that they had. So this could not be just a coincidence, and this could not be just a matter of interpretation, because the kind of the nature of the signal was very clear.
Sally Ann Marie 00:21:07 Yeah. I'm curious on behalf of our listeners who may not know this work, your team, your people, and you mentioned earlier who've been trained in this, they're sitting in a room. They come in through the door, they know absolutely nothing. You know, a tiny amount. They know nothing. And they start to allow themselves, I suppose, to respond to what they're perceiving and act it out. How? If you like. Do they do that? What's the training that enables them to be in a place where they're receptive to the energy in the room, to be outside the room? Beyond that, as you say, it could be very big scope.
Sally Ann Marie 00:21:44 How do they do that?
Mikhail Klarin 00:21:45 Well, that's a very good question. You know, the way they perceive looks like as if it were a distributed neural network, but not AI network, but rather natural human human brain network. And they get signals and we may call it an information field, or we may call it the knowing field, or we may call it knows fear or collective unconsciousness. We may call it different. Or we may call it morphogenetic field. I give you the names that exist and the names that are being used in the systemic constellation work. But here, as my prior training, the initial training I had was in physics. I want clear signal.
Sally Ann Marie 00:22:47 Yes.
Mikhail Klarin 00:22:48 And whatever the nature of the signal, I do not want to have any interferences, including from my own self. That is why I do not want to know any specific details. That is why I keep my assistants absolutely uninformed. Yeah.
Sally Ann Marie 00:23:08 No preconceived ideas. You come in with an open mind, so to speak, an empty space in which to explore.
Mikhail Klarin 00:23:16 Yes, and that's different from the way typical systemic insulators work because they tell people you are mother, you are the father, and you would be an unborn child and you would be the spirit of the family and et cetera, etc. so. So they are given roles. I don't want to do that at the same time. The subject of the work is different because it's not a family system, which is a very different object from businesses or social situations.
Sally Ann Marie 00:23:50 Yes, I understand, and it's also immensely intriguing. You know, I kind of want to be in the room watching it happening. It sounds fascinating. And so what happened? These clients, you know, the two people, they observed all of this. They listened. They gave you feedback. What happened after that? What did they do with this, so to speak?
Mikhail Klarin 00:24:09 Well, this kind of work, every single time it's work with the unknown. It's working with the realm of the unknown.
Sally Ann Marie 00:24:18 Yes.
Mikhail Klarin 00:24:18 And of course, I'm very interested in checking this.
Mikhail Klarin 00:24:23 How much accurate it is. How much real? Well, 1st May have a philosophical dispute about what is reality and what you mean when you say something is real.
Sally Ann Marie 00:24:36 But indeed.
Mikhail Klarin 00:24:37 Well. But still, if there is a competition, you cannot say this is just my imagination.
Sally Ann Marie 00:24:45 No, quite. It's happening in front of our eyes and ears right now.
Mikhail Klarin 00:24:49 Oh, yes. So every single time I want to make sure that the model and I call it modeling, I call it business modeling. I don't call it translations, but I call it business modeling, because what we deal there with is actually model a model of business reality, a model of organizational reality. And this model shows us something. So I'm interested to know if the model is correct every single time. And so I check it in. It's very challenging for me and interesting at the same time to be checking it every piece, every step. So I whisper with my customer or client, I'm asking questions if if this corresponds to what they know and how this corresponds to what they know.
Mikhail Klarin 00:25:37 And then starting with that, I may go further and go into into virtual future. And there I can not check. Of course I can check backwards later.
Sally Ann Marie 00:25:48 Yes. So you use it as a basis for designing, helping them to design a different future for the company. Is that how you then move forwards with that?
Mikhail Klarin 00:26:00 Yes. And this is exactly the aim. That's the reason why they come to me. Yes, they want to see and to check if this strategy is okay, if the next step or steps would be good enough. And sometimes the model shows there are some unforeseen barriers as well as unforeseen opportunities.
Sally Ann Marie 00:26:25 Wonderful.
Mikhail Klarin 00:26:26 So yes, that is exactly what people are coming for.
Sally Ann Marie 00:26:31 So they might have had an idea or even done some work on their strategic direction, say for the next five years, whatever. And they come to you almost to make sure that there are aspects or that they're not missing anything, that they haven't got things they might be otherwise blind to, to make sure that when they then move forward with their strategy, they're not just doing it with their head, they're doing it in a far deeper way.
Sally Ann Marie 00:26:56 This is taking the conceptual, isn't it? And the unknown and bringing it into some kind of, I don't know, factual reality. It's an integration of, I suppose, the unknown and the known. Is that an accurate interpretation?
Mikhail Klarin 00:27:11 Yeah, correct. It's like this, really. And you know, I cannot go into the future as far as five years by going into the future, I mean that the model shows exactly the story. It shows the dynamics. It shows the story, tells you the story.
Sally Ann Marie 00:27:29 Wonderful. Yeah.
Mikhail Klarin 00:27:31 For instance, project number four is collapsing down on the floor, symbolically representing the low potential of the project for the next year.
Sally Ann Marie 00:27:42 How interesting.
Mikhail Klarin 00:27:43 It's pretty rough. I would say this is a pretty rough description, but it happened like this. So it is nearly a quote. Yes, I work within one year's reach.
Sally Ann Marie 00:27:55 I see. Gosh. Okay.
Mikhail Klarin 00:27:57 So I do not reach out further. So I know, of course, that there are different methods of foresight.
Mikhail Klarin 00:28:03 And still I don't treat this as a foresight. Foresight or 5 or 15 or even 50 years is okay, but it's absolutely safe to predict something in 50 years, because in 50 years you would not have any responsibility for this.
Sally Ann Marie 00:28:24 Quite, quite. Let's make wild generalizations about what might happen.
Mikhail Klarin 00:28:28 Even for ten years. Even for ten years? Yeah, nobody would be around in their current positions anymore.
Sally Ann Marie 00:28:35 That's very true. This is much more pragmatic, isn't it? It's very, you know, immediate. When I talked about the five year plan, I was thinking more of theirs. And then, you know, they're coming to you, I suppose, and you're saying, well, look, you know, if you want to move in this direction in the next year, here are the watch outs. This is what we're reading here. This is what we're seeing here. It may I guess, that they're able to sense check whether the immediate steps that they might have considered are the right ones.
Mikhail Klarin 00:29:00 And, you know, in a year we can live up to that. Yes, presumably. Hopefully.
Sally Ann Marie 00:29:08 You'd have to hope so. Yes.
Mikhail Klarin 00:29:09 So I have had this experience and people were and are coming back to me in half a year in 1 or 2 years. And I have confirmations.
Sally Ann Marie 00:29:21 Fantastic.
Mikhail Klarin 00:29:22 And people say, yes, this was the right decision. Number one, this was the right decision. Number two, the line of events was really this like in the middle back there.
Sally Ann Marie 00:29:33 So you've got proof of I'm going to say proof of concept. It's more than that, isn't it? But you've got proof that what happened in the room.
Mikhail Klarin 00:29:40 That's a proof for me.
Sally Ann Marie 00:29:41 It's validated.
Mikhail Klarin 00:29:42 I would say it's about 85 to 90%. But this is about statistics, not pure statistics, because I don't have hundreds and hundreds. I have scores, not hundreds and hundreds of cases. And all of them are very different. They have different nature. One is family business, another is a startup project, yet another is a company, another is a holding company.
Mikhail Klarin 00:30:08 And well, I'm saying about typical entities I'm working with or yet another is a private, absolutely private situation, somewhat semi business. Another is a career track and career decision. So even those scores are of different nature. So it's not that easy to have a correct statistics in the correct sense of the word I understand. So when I say 85 to 90%, it's not measurement. It's like more intuitive statistics. I come from the field of physics in a math. So I have to be careful about it's important. Yes, because I'm doing things that are beyond that, you know.
Sally Ann Marie 00:30:54 Well you are behind. You've stepped out of what might have previously been a comfort zone, I suppose, an area of comfort, an area of deep knowledge and expertise. And you've moved considerably in some respects outside of that. And this is groundbreaking work, isn't it? What are you doing with these case studies that you're accumulating the scores that you now have across many different sectors? Are we going to see this in a book? In a paper? What do you want to do with this?
Mikhail Klarin 00:31:23 Well, number one, I have written a book a few years ago and it was published by one of the key Business books publishers here in in Russia.
Sally Ann Marie 00:31:35 What's the name of it? Has it been translated? Mikhail, Lord?
Mikhail Klarin 00:31:38 No it hasn't. The title is A rendezvous with the boss.
Sally Ann Marie 00:31:43 Oh, fantastic.
Mikhail Klarin 00:31:44 And there are cases. But it's not a consultant's book. Like, you know, case number one, there was a problem. They came to me, and then it was all right. Then it was a problem number two. And they came to me. And that was much better. Then there was a company in number three and again. And so. but rather the book. It's a business fiction. I could not write directly about the situations and people and companies, but I wrote about people integrating several cases into one story, then several cases into another story. So these are stories. So this is a business fiction. The real business cases stand behind that but not 1 to 1. So this business fiction book was shortlisted by PricewaterhouseCoopers. Rating of business books by Russian author that is not translated book.
Sally Ann Marie 00:32:40 Congratulations. That a marvellous.
Mikhail Klarin 00:32:42 Oh well.
Mikhail Klarin 00:32:42 So my key answer to your question is that I've written a book. And as for another kind of work, a study or research work, I want to do this. I can tell you if interested, I can tell you.
Sally Ann Marie 00:32:57 well, what I'm curious about is how far reaching this work, you know, might possibly be. So I'm curious about its application. You've been doing this work now for some time. You've validated it. You've written a book about it. What would you like to see? How far would you wish this to go? Do you have any ambitions about spreading this approach more widely? What are your thoughts around that, Mikael? And tell us a bit about that.
Mikhail Klarin 00:33:22 Well, there's a question for me as well. One option is doing research, which is lab research equipment type, equipment based research, studying the brain phenomena related to this work, because it's obvious that it is brain phenomena that stand behind this work. It's one thing. Okay, I am in the process of initiating a lab based study of this work and not not a very easy thing, because there is no clear field of science which would study that.
Mikhail Klarin 00:34:02 And the phenomenon itself is strange. Well, it's one thing, but still, I am initiating this. But it's kind of a sideways thing. Another is something that you mentioned, and this is about spreading this kind of practice, developing it further, and maybe multiplying. But here I'm thinking about it, but I haven't started it yet. I would say in market terms, the demand is not very high for this, partly because it's not widely known. This kind of practice is not widely known. And of course the other is high level of skepticism. So I remember your phrase of fearless forward.
Sally Ann Marie 00:34:50 I was going to ask you about that. Yes.
Mikhail Klarin 00:34:52 Yeah. So so I have to deal with a fear, right. Or uneasiness? not the physical one. Not the butterflies in the stomach, but rather a mental one.
Sally Ann Marie 00:35:03 Okay.
Mikhail Klarin 00:35:04 Like uneasiness.
Sally Ann Marie 00:35:05 Yes.
Mikhail Klarin 00:35:06 So no, not. Not yet. Not any courses on that. And it's a very delicate area.
Sally Ann Marie 00:35:14 Actually, I understand that it's highly unconventional.
Sally Ann Marie 00:35:17 Not at all mainstream and difficult for you.
Mikhail Klarin 00:35:22 Yes. And I experimented with art objects, and I wanted to see if they they have kind of field or energy or some influence that could be sensed by my assistants. So I experimented with that. Confirmed. And then I made a this year over this year, I did a what I called a business art performance. So it was a performance.
Sally Ann Marie 00:35:52 A business art performance. Yes. Oh how intriguing. So what was that in Moscow?
Mikhail Klarin 00:35:58 There is a museum. A private museum of nonconformist art. The paintings there date back to 1970s. Underground Soviet art and 1970s, 80s, 90s well up to 20 tens. So scores of paintings there and some sculptures. We gathered a number of guests there, and I took one of the paintings off the wall with the permission of the museum, of course, and I showed it to the audience. And then the painting was hidden afterwards. And then my assistants came. They did not see it. They knew nothing.
Mikhail Klarin 00:36:39 And they started to move and speak symbolically representing this painting. And this was a very fascinating and spectacular event.
Sally Ann Marie 00:36:51 Sounds intriguing.
Mikhail Klarin 00:36:53 Then there was a life situation again, Something like I told you before. So the idea was that the reality. The reality we live in is much more sophisticated and multifaceted than we may think. And using these special methods, we can see what we could not see before and feel and hear.
Sally Ann Marie 00:37:18 This is so interesting, and I'm also wondering if I can bring it back to you. Thinking of you as a scholar, you know, deep researcher, a physicist, mathematician who's at least early life was founded in science and fact. And I guess what I'm hearing is that at some point, while I'm wondering, did you start to question whether that was it, and was there a sort of a deeper curiosity to find out what else there was in this world, in this life that we don't see, that isn't available to our senses in the immediate way of doing things as we, you know, in our normal lives, there must have been a point, was there, in which you decided to explore.
Sally Ann Marie 00:38:00 Well, the unknown.
Mikhail Klarin 00:38:01 When I was starting to explore this, this was a matter of curiosity. Number one. Of course.
Sally Ann Marie 00:38:10 Yes.
Mikhail Klarin 00:38:11 But at the same time there was a pragmatic interest as well, because pragmatically I could see that. And I did see that it was possible to develop a method of knowing what was not exactly given something that is hidden or something that is implicit. And you can bring it to the surface, unveil and unveiling the unknown that is not situationally unknown because they don't tell you, but something that is unknown because it is not yet. They're unveiling this kind of the unknown was very much intriguing And appealing and attractive for me.
Sally Ann Marie 00:38:55 Yes, I can imagine.
Mikhail Klarin 00:38:57 And it still is.
So, Mika, given where you are now in your life, you're continuing to work. I imagine you have no intention of stopping anytime soon. I imagine this is a life's work for as long as you're able to continue. So when you look at the future, given where you are now and everything that you've experienced, what does Fearless Forward mean to you?
Mikhail Klarin 00:46:10 Well, I look at it pragmatically. That is not as a general or abstract idea, but rather something that is embedded in real life situations. One kind of fearless forward then for me would be going on with initiating research lab, research equipment based research on this. And this already is a Challenge. Really? So I do have to be fearless here. Yes, I have started this already. But going on, I need to be fearless. Further and further. Another kind of fearless forward is developing this practice in the business area and in different segments of the market with startups, with businesses, because now there is the word of mouth kind of propaganda.
Mikhail Klarin 00:47:11 There is no, no, no, no, no advertising. Well, very little PR on my side but word of mouth. And this is slow. This is a slow progress. So fearless forward in this area for me would be more visibility intended, more intended visibility. Well. And might be that the same could be in art Actually, this year I fearlessly went to one theatre in Moscow and suggested to do this kind of theater work a special kind of theater, a documentary kind of theater. My theater, no play, no roles, but rather taking people's stories just from here and now.
Sally Ann Marie 00:48:04 Yes. Like sort of, improvised theater in that sense. Right?
Mikhail Klarin 00:48:08 Yes. How can improvised theater and turning stories into an account of mysteries? So that was my intention. And they refused, though. But then I'm thinking of fearlessly going to yet another theater and.
Sally Ann Marie 00:48:28 Yeah, why not?
Mikhail Klarin 00:48:30 So I've listed several areas of this fearless forward. But every time I would not take it for granted that there is no fear.
Mikhail Klarin 00:48:39 There would be.
Sally Ann Marie 00:48:40 Always. You're listening. You're noticing the uneasiness and, doing it anyway. Because your need to progress this, you'll need to continue to explore. It is greater than your fear.
Mikhail Klarin 00:48:53 Yeah, I would say that it's in the life of every single person. That is, if you are doing something that is not exactly a repetition of what you did before. If there is a step forward or a leap forward. So if you are taking a leap, then it would be only natural to to have some fear.
Sally Ann Marie 00:49:18 Indeed.
Mikhail Klarin 00:49:19 So if you want to move forward.
Sally Ann Marie 00:49:21 Yes, indeed. If you want to move forward, you take the leap. Michael Klarin, thank you so much for this conversation.
Mikhail Klarin 00:49:27 Thank you Sami. And.
Sally Ann Marie 00:49:31 To Mikhail, the chaos of 1990s Russia was both frightening and intriguing from a closed Soviet system with no business, no market, no services to a whole new world of commerce, risk, opportunity and different ways of looking at things, he responded not as an observer but as a seasoned actor in a new role.
Sally Ann Marie 00:49:53 He was engaging in something he'd never done in a world he didn't yet know. But with a commitment to grow, he led the way into the unknown, both then and now. Today, through his constellation work, Mikhail takes business leaders on an apparently magical journey through the information field and into the hidden dynamics that shape business relationships. This may be unconventional, but his approach is grounded in reality. The physicist in him is always checking. Is the model useful? Does it match what my clients know? Does it hold up? A year later. And yes, along the way there may have been disappointments, uneasiness and moments of self-doubt. But when you step out of the safety of your known reality into the unknown. Not everyone will have the courage to come with you. Then, says Mikhail, it's better to treat those fears as data and not as a verdict. Thank you for listening. Fearless forward is edited and produced by Mark Stepan. I'll be back with you in two weeks for our next conversation about how leaders have faced their fears.