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The University of Victoria is home to a handful of hardworking graduate students doing trailblazing work in their field. In this series, CFUV correspondents sit down with UVic graduate students to learn more about the work they do in a conversational setting.
Hello, you are listening to the Beyond the Jargon Podcast on CFUV 101.9 FM. Before we begin, I'd like to acknowledge with respect to the Lekwungen speaking peoples on whose traditional territory, the university and CFUV stands, and the Songhees, Esquimalt and Wsanec peoples whose historical relationships with the land continue to this day. I'm a guest on this land and I'm extremely grateful for the experiences and the life it has given me while I've been here. I'm Sam Kaiser. I use he him pronouns and I'm a master's student studying music technology, and I'm in the final semester of my studies. My research is mainly focused on the implications of the growing popularity of immersive audio formats on popular music. Welcome to all new and returning listeners to the podcast. This is the second episode of 2024. And I'm super excited to get right into it. For any new listeners, here's a quick little rundown on what we do on the show. Beyond the jargon exists to give a platform to graduate students at UVic, so they can discuss their research in an accessible and non formal way. I'll be interviewing graduate students from various faculties at different points in their academic careers, asking them about their research topics, their experiences as grad students and what their future plans may be. Today's guest is Cleo Yong. Cleo is a second year Master's student in musicology, focusing on a very interesting piece of contemporary Mexican opera.
My name is Cleo. I'm from North Vancouver. I've been here since September of 2017. I think so quite a while and I'm in my second year of my master's in musicology.
So you mentioned you've been here since 2017. So you did your undergraduate here as well. I did. Yeah. What brought you to Victoria and UVic for that, as well as your graduate program. I
wanted to study with the Lafayette, I liked the chamber music program that they had set up the Lafayette String Quartet. And I also liked that Victoria, it was close to my family. So I could visit them often. But also I could have my own life's like slightly farther away from them as
well. And just for people who don't know the Lafayette String Quartet, we're at UVic for the past few years, but now they're not yes, they retired last year, I think so you studied violin with them.
I studied violin with them. For my whole degree. I had private lessons with a few of them and studied in various ensembles with them as well.
I wasn't here 2017 Obviously, I came in 2022, I guess. But I was really lucky to be a tech for their last concert over the summer. And I was just like blown away by the feedback they got and how many people came and it was just a packed concert. And it's just awesome to see how supportive and how, how much they've impacted so many students over the years. Was there anything about the program specifically at UVic that brought to your attention? Let's talk about your graduate program now. So you mentioned the Lafayette string orchestra for your undergraduate degree. So for your graduate degree in musicology, why did you decide to stay at UVic? Well, I
met Dr. Virginia, Kenya, when I was doing my undergrad, I believe, or at least I knew of her during that time. And I had research interests that were very similar to her own research and tests. And so I came here to study with her, which I am now doing, obviously, that was the main reason I wanted to stay. And
Dr. Kenya is your supervisor, your thesis? Yes. Could you just kind of talk about what your what that field is like what specifically Dr. Hakuna is research kind of falls into and what your research into your thesis kind of falls into as well. So
her Dr. King is research from what I can remember is on it's about Baroque Spanish music. In my it's not on Spanish music, but it's on Mexican music, okay. And there's there weren't a lot of people in Canada that have done research on Spanish or Latin American music. So that's the main similarity, but we both have interests in music on the stage such as opera and gender as well as
music. So your your focus into into Mexican Latin American music is also with a focus on gender as well and how that's represented on stage and through the music. Yeah,
so I've done a lot of research on gender and race in relation to Mexican music. I'm currently focusing on nationalism in Mexican music, though. So a lot of variety in the topics and relate in relation to Mexican music
for sure. And so you mentioned Dr. Kunia, is focused on Baroque music for your for your focus for Mexican music. Do you have a time period that you're looking at specific Nuclear kind of like it was at a broad range. For
me specifically, I'm focused on an opera that was premiered in 1948. So it's not part of the Baroque period. very recent. Yeah, it is. But there's still a lot of resources that we can share up that or about related topics. Or
interests. Yeah, totally. So and this piece, what's the piece called? It's called
lemon law to Cordova.
Cordova. Great. And does it is it still performed? Now?
It's not hugely performed. And it's been performed a few times since it's been premiered. But there's, yeah, this little record of it. There's not many recordings of it or anything.
I think I remember you mentioning this last year, because we took a class together. And we you mentioned this as part of, we were doing like a grant proposal assignment. I think you mentioned, this was what you were interested in. And this was kind of that there weren't many recordings, or there weren't many active, like, I guess, primary resources for you to draw from, I suppose. Yeah. Well, let's dial it back a bit. I'm sorry, I kind of went a bit on a tangent there. Just curious about your research. But we'll go back to kind of talking about transitioning from your undergraduate degree into your graduate degree. How was the application procedure for your program going into a different field of study within the same department? Was there anything difficult about it, and were there any interesting prerequisites, interviews or associated activities,
it wasn't particularly difficult in my experience, it was included writing a few, I think it was two research papers, and submitting my transcripts along with those. And I had already written research papers that I could submit, because I had taken music history classes throughout my undergrad. And so it was a matter of choosing the ones I was most confident with and editing those further. Before I could submit it was a lot different from entering my undergrad because that also included an interview and, and an audition on my instruments or Yeah, so comparatively, it wasn't, particularly because,
yeah, for sure, I think that's something that you kind of noticed too, with, like when I was applying to different programs to there were more portfolio pieces, audition pieces, but I think with research, they just want to see the quality of your writing and the quality of your research. And it's great to hear that the UVic undergrad program, like with your music history classes that you maybe took with Dr. Coogan, even they prepared you for this application process, as I'm sure. Did you apply to any other programs as well,
I applied to one in Ontario, but I decided to stay here. Yes.
I was in Ontario. It's colder than here. Yeah, that's great. It's great that it's really just prepared you and actually gave you literal resources that you could use for your application process into grad school. Sounds pretty, that's pretty easy. It's pretty great. How has or perhaps has in your undergraduate work led you in the direction of your current research. So you were a performance major in your undergrad?
I was a musical arts major sports major. Okay. It's similar to a poor performance major, but I don't have as much of an emphasis on having a whole recital that I have to perform as far as my program requirements.
My performance was still you still was still a
good chunk of my degree. Of course, yeah.
Okay, great. Yeah. So was there a reason why you didn't pursue performance, like more in the future? Or what drew you more towards a research focus?
Well, I've always really liked writing and research, because I also studied English throughout my undergrad. So it's always been sort of equal to performing in terms of what I want to be doing. And I think that there's, for me, opens up more career options. I don't have all of my focus on playing the violin, I am taking a class where I am able to perform music still. So I'm still working on on those skills. But I'm able to focus on my research skills and being able to put together big written projects that allow me to work on my transferable skills for like, if I wanted to go into politics or some other writing related career,
or further research careers, or teaching even maybe repressor. Yeah, I kind of agree that it's really important to broaden yourself, especially at university. I think there's kind of the assumption that people make about arts degrees or even degrees in the humanities that you're not really learning anything or you're not really like actively learning any skills, but you are, you're learning so many skills, you're learning how to organize your thoughts, how to do research, how to write clearly how to communicate effectively, how to appeal to an audience. That's a big thing, too, that I think a lot of people kind of miss when they're just doing math,
and also lots of time management skills course. When you're putting Together recital, you have to start learning your music months in advance, otherwise it won't get done. And that's
on top of all your other studies. And that's also like collaborating with other musicians. Can I ask what class you're taking right now that's that you're still performing it. I'm
taking a class where that is compiled of composers and performers, and the composers are writing music for the performers specifically enrolled in that class. And we're organizing a recital planned for the end of the semester. I've
heard about this class mechanism, this class. Yes, yes. Yeah. So yeah, sounds awesome. And again, if we're talking about like transferable skills and things, being able to just like collaborate with people coming from different backgrounds, because music is very broad, right, we have people coming to study performance, like we've mentioned, research, like we've mentioned, I'm doing technology, which is kind of even, like further removed in some ways. And then we have composers as well. And that sounds like a great course, I kind of wish I was able to take it if I wasn't able to take it this year. But it sounds like a great way to just kind of bring everybody together. Because I do think in some departments and even in music, even though we are a pretty collaborative department, even among undergraduates and graduate students, there is some separation that occurs like it just kind of happens because you don't take the same courses. But I'm happy to see like more interdisciplinary approaches. And that's taught by Joanna hood
is Joanna hood, and Anthony Tam.
Great. So and Joanna hood is he's a viewless duelist. And Anthony Chan is a composer. And he also is focused on like electro acoustic music in some ways, too, which is also good to see like, yes, little representation. Great. So just talking about your research a little bit more in depth. If you could sum up your research goals for yourself. In one sentence, what would it be? Doesn't have to be one set.
Um, so research goals as in, like, what am I researching? What do I want to do with my research?
How will we split it up? How can we do one since I don't like a like your thesis statement kind of thing? Like for your research? And then what you want your research to do for you? Or like, where do you want it to lead you something like that? Okay,
so a lot of what is studied in music history is focused on Western music and culture. So music that's written in Europe, and is associated with that part of the world. So I'm hoping to add to the non western field of musicology and making information about Latin American music, and it's incorporation of Mexican folk music more accessible to everyone. And just yeah, basically that,
yeah, bring it more into the way they go. Yeah, for sure. So
more specifically, what I'm researching is how nationalism is portrayed in an opera, lemon Leto DeCordova. And how this nationalism is portrayed differently from the two offers that it was premiered with. Okay. Interesting, because there was a lot of growing need for cultural unification and political unification in Mexico in the early 20th century, because there was the Mexican Revolution. And so this unification was promoted through the arts. And so music is part of the arts.
Yeah, so we could dive a little deeper into that, too. I'm just curious about So you mentioned lemon Letta DeCordova was premiered with two other operas. They were both operas, or they were to just both opera. Opera. So all three are operas. Yes. Great. Okay, so the three operas and you say you're looking to kind of compare and contrast between how they represent nationalism.
Yeah, there's one composer called Carlos Chavez, who really aligned himself with this cultural unification of Mexico. And so he, he was in the position to be organizing different concerts, it within Mexico, so
he was a big figure. And like, also, I guess, a patron of the arts, boys too, I guess where he was, he was a composer. So so like, national figure, in some ways, not really kind of
important person is important. Okay. And so he organized this concert to promote Mexican nationalism. And this concert contained three operas, one of which is the one that I'm focusing on, and then I'm comparing the three offers together or against each other.
So I guess not to spoil your thesis or your research, but that's kind of the point of the podcast, you know, to kind of just bring your research to light and kind of talk about why it's important. Why did you choose Loma Linda Cordova? Well, I
was originally interested in writing about gender and race and exoticism and those three things in a piece of music from Mexico, written in Mexico by a Mexican composer. And so that's how I chose this opera, because I was able to write about those things about a piece I was interested in. And then I ended up switching to write about nationalism and this opera instead. Because it was suggested to me that it would make a more significant contribution to the field of Musicology,
especially for this region, or just in general in general. Yeah.
So that's how I ended up writing about this offer was because I was originally writing about this offer in relation to other topics. But it also ended up working to write about this offer in relation to nationalism.
And I'm sure you gained a really deep understanding of this opera from various points of view, like through gender and race, like you were kind of talking about. And then you can sort of apply some of those ideas as well, to this nationalism idea as well, because I'm sure they come up in this national Yeah, yeah. I guess the nationalist views that it was trying to point out or bring out what were the other two operas? Staats acquisio, if you don't,
one of them is called Carlotta. And the other one is called Elena. I'm pretty sure. There's there's a few discrepancies in the articles I've read. Sure. Most of them say that the other offers called Elena. So
those two are both women's names. Yes. And llamo letter the Quran was also
referring to a woman. Yeah. But the woman in this opera, let me let her to quarterback doesn't isn't given a name in the opera. So she's, that's why it's called like, yeah,
there's no title. Okay, but the main character is, is a woman is a woman. Okay. And my Spanish is super rusty. Let me let the DeCordova that's also a racial name. It is. It's obviously like an artifact of the time, but also perhaps maybe a reason why she doesn't have a name or she isn't. Yeah, and a name. Yep. And I'm also again, assuming that Carla and Elena was Carla. Carla Carlotta and Elena are white women they are. So this is why you chose him? I'm Alyssa DeCordova. Yeah, I totally see why you would also first go to gender and race, because that's kind of clearly there. Because I don't know much about Mexican opera. I know a little bit about opera. We have strong female characters and a lot of operas that usually carry the shows, even if the representation of them is not always the most feminist in our view at the moment. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's interesting to choose this very contrasting piece to the other two, and then take it in a way that isn't exactly how most people would think about it, I guess, originally, because I, I do think like you thinking this piece makes sense to talk about gender race like that. It's right there for you. Yeah, like that point is there for you. And then spinning it to talk about nationalism is really interesting. Could you maybe just expand on that about how it differs and representing nationalism, then the other two were a white woman is sort of the centerpiece of the of the play for the opera. So
this opera at lemon Lautrec DeCordova. It's based on a legend, a Mexican legend. So that's the basis for the plot. And it also uses elements of regional folk music from Mexico, whereas the other operas are not based on legends, they're based on the French occupation in Mexico, rather than a legend that is based on the Spanish occupation of Mexico, which is the case of lemon Letta DeCordova. And the other two offers are focused on the French leaders. Okay, I don't know what word to use. The the French people who were in Mexico, making all the decisions. So it's focused on those characters rather than a character who is either indigenous or black or a combination of those two, which is to
the region to to the region. Yeah. You mentioned Mexican folk music too, and how that plays a part in the opera. I'm assuming the other two operas are more French, sounding French based on French operas, or Italian operas, I guess. Well,
the other two operas, as far as I know, don't necessarily include Mexican folk regional music. They have more of an influence from European music. They don't completely exclude like Mexican form like Mexican. What you what we would consider to be Mexican music, but they have a greater influence from year If they include genres or forms such as like Waltz's sure which lots of people typically don't associate with Mexico, yeah,
for sure. I'm kind of forgetting myself to like, this was in 1948 when it first came out so we had, there was much to take from I guess in terms of lots of knowledge in terms of French opera as Italian opera. So it wasn't like the start of the Baroque period or like, where operas were kind of just starting. Yeah, I guess whenever I think about opera or music of this kind. I my brain goes way back. Like I started thinking about like, music history isn't very good, but like this 17 hundred's I guess is that yeah, that's awkward time. Okay. So yeah, it's interesting to talk about to like more modern opera, because these are new pieces at the time I was Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that's great. That's awesome. So let me let it to a Cordova almost exclusively uses Mexican folk music, or
it includes elements of it. So it's not based on any specific folk, folk song or anything. But it includes various rhythms that are characteristic of the folk music and different like it, it sort of imitates dance music at some points, which is characteristic of a lot of the folk music.
Let's maybe go back to talking about the music department and kind of talking about our classroom, we're talking about and working with your peers, there are other musicology students at UVic at various levels, how is the work of your peers influenced your own research and the work of others in your field? I guess what I mean by that is the peers around you also approaching various different research topics, I'm sure, wildly different from each other. And then also, if you've encountered any other people who are kind of studying similar regions to you, maybe they're studying the same opera as you how have they changed the way that you look at your own research? So
yeah, like you said, all of my peers are researching very different topics. And it's difficult to know exactly what everyone is researching in detail, because a lot of what we do is so independent from each other. So it's sort of hard to compare, or take a huge amount of influence from the topics of others when they're so different from my own, for sure. But all of them, I hear of their study habits, their work habits, I see their work progressing through presentations that we do for each other. And I can see they're all working really hard. So that I definitely admire about them. And it sort of encourages me to also hold myself to that same level. But also, there's a few others that I believe are researching folk music in other parts of the world and other music, and so that, probably hearing about their research, regarding folk music, even though it's completely different from the way I'm studying folk music, it still sort of got me thinking about how to incorporate that into my own research.
Yeah, yeah. Also maybe kind of looking at resources and things like that, like, like with these other students who are studying folk music, how to actually find resources that talk about this, maybe there are different databases you can use and things like that, too. Yeah, yeah. I have a couple of music specific questions that I also said, yeah. This is kind of topical. I thought of this question. Because I went to Queens University for an undergrad and then some sort of financial trouble, I don't know. But they're talking about removing certain arts programs and arts courses and things like that. My question is, why do you think strong interest in higher education in the arts has persisted for so long, even in the face of these like budget cuts, closures, and you hear all these things all the time? I feel like as a student, why do you think there's strong interest still prevails?
I don't know. I think people don't necessarily go into higher education in music, expecting to have like the easiest time finding like a reliable, good paying job, but they do it because they really want to be doing it. And they just trust themselves to figure out a way to make it work. I mean, there's a lot of transferable skills that you can get from a music degree. So if you really love, like playing your instrument, and you want to go into a music program, like you can still get something out of it if you're not going to continue in music after you graduate. I don't know.
Of course, no. I totally agree. I think that's a reason why I did I just love it. I couldn't see myself studying math or studying computer science or whatever. Like, I think there's just an inherent love and dedication to whatever instrument you play or whatever you're interested in and also to yourself, write about, like just trying to express yourself in the ways that make you happy. And you've already answered this you are a musician yourself. Do you find that your research has influenced your own artistry anyway? Well, it's
introduced me to a lot of music I didn't know about before, a lot of new composers and, and pieces that I now really like and want to play, but I didn't know existed before doing this research. So that's cool. Also, it's led me to work with some contemporary composers from Mexico and Spain. A few years ago, I did that. And so if I wasn't interested in getting to know different, like, Latin American cultures, and the music that existence in those places, like I don't know, if I would have ended up doing that, for sure,
though. Yeah, you've kind of opened up that whole avenue for yourself. Yeah, that many people I assume, would never even know about or never even be open to try, I suppose as well. That's great. And that's also kind of one of the research goals to like, kind of just more visibility. That's the word I was looking for. It was more visibility for this region for music, and artistry, for sure. Amazing. What do you think is a common misconception about your field?
I don't know if this is a misconception. But I think not everyone necessarily knows what music students do in university, or know what musicology is. I think lots of people. Well, I don't know a lot of people, I think, generally people think that studying music involves just playing your instrument all day, and you have a rehearsal sometimes. And then you just go away and you practice your instrument a little bit, a little bit more. And it's just sort of that's it. And it's really fun. Yeah, yes, a large part of it is that but it's also academic classes. We have history classes and theory classes near training classes. And musicology is different again, because it's focused on music research, rather than performing music, so it's sort of like the sociology or anthropology but for music.
Yeah, for sure. Like solely focused on music. Yeah. Which is a huge part of our culture and different cultures, different societies. I totally agree as another music student, I totally agree that that's kind of I tell people what I'm doing in my degree, and they're kind of like, I haven't heard about that. What do you even do? What does that even mean? I Yeah. And I think that's also why I invited you to come on, beyond the jargon and talk about musicology. Because I do think it's a department that exists in any music department, in universities around the world. But I don't think people immediately think about musicology. When they think of the music department, they think of musicians, they think of performers. And a lot of the time musicologist are also musicians and performers, but are focused on the research aspect, and talking about the history of music, music, culture, and things like you mentioned. What do you think will be next for you after this chapter? Do you have any plans? Or it's okay, if there's no,
I don't know. I'm, I'm considering going into like humanitarian human rights work, or getting a job like working as a technical writer. So I can do some traveling while I work and work remotely or something like that. But I'm also really enjoying working as a music teacher right now. So I might continue that for a little while and and see if I want to continue that. That's an option.
I guess, if you're a music teacher, would you want to stay in Victoria? Or maybe move or
I want to live somewhere else for a little while just to see what it's like. I've been here for a long time. But who knows? I might end up coming back here.
Yeah, it's a great place to be. I mean, I'm glad that I ended up here. So yeah. Final question. I was going to ask this at the start, but I totally forgot. We are in a radio station. We love music here.
I'm just curious, besides your thesis work, what kind of music are you listening to right now that you're really loving?
I listen to a whole range of music. It's not just classical music.
Also, common misconception for music students, they only listen to classical. Yeah,
that's definitely not the case. I'll go with these times where I'll listen to a lot of classical music. And I'll go through times where I do not want to listen to classical music at all, no listen to I don't even know. Literally, whatever shows up on my Spotify.
Great. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Best of luck with the rest of your studies. Thank you. Thanks again to Cleo. I'm very clear on the podcast because I wanted to hear from a student studying music without a major focus on performance. As we discussed earlier, I thought it was important to highlight the work being done at this level in analyzing and promoting music research, especially centered around areas and regions that aren't always talked about as much. If you're interested includes performance classwork that we mentioned, or would like to engage more with School of Music and events they host visit fine arts.uvic.ca/music/calendar/events Thanks for tuning in. This has been beyond the jargon on CFUV 101.9 FM and I hope you'll tune in to our next episode. My name is Sam Kaiser. Thanks again for listening