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Barney's Tavern is a corner booth for people who care about this country.
Chris LaBossiere sits down with thoughtful, interesting Canadians — and take the time real ideas deserve. Generals. Entrepreneurs. Policymakers. Artists. Creatives. Builders. People shaping Canada in visible and invisible ways.
The goal isn't debate. It isn't performance. It's curiosity.
Hey, everybody, and welcome to Barney's Tavern. My name is Bryn Griffiths, and I'm just kinda getting this thing started with my good friend, Chris LaBossiere, who's joining us. Chris, before we get to our guests, and we are really excited to have him with us on the on the podcast today, but tell everybody about Barney's Tavern and what's it all about.
Chris:Well, I've always wanted the opportunity to kind of share my thoughts and opinions more in long form. And you know, as someone who many would know me as someone who spends a lot of time on Twitter, you know, I found that that ecosystem getting really toxic, hard to get any kind of message through either way. And so just for a while, I've been thinking about the idea of having something that kind of aligns with my interest, but mostly about, you know, the Canadian conversations I think we should be having in 2026. You know, what's important to Canada, what's, you know, what's it mean in the world today. And to me, this is probably the best way to do it is to use it as an excuse to catch up and talk to new people who are very important or very good at something or part of that conversation.
Chris:And so I'll be able to explore conversations with many great Canadians on many great topics. But it's the conversations I think we need to be having in a little bit more of a kind of conversational and less less partisan and less opinionated form as as as much as I can hopefully do that.
Todd:Well, this is the first one of these, and, of course, it'll be available on YouTube, so you can watch it. It's also available on Spotify and Apple and all the Ear Candy sites. The other thing too, great website. We'll talk about all of this throughout our series, but this is episode one. So tell everybody who is joining us because this is a guy that a lot of Edmontonians will know, but he hasn't been here for quite some time, so let's get right to it.
Chris:Sure. Well, I'm extremely excited and happy and and more comfortable now knowing that my first guest is Todd Babiak. Todd and I have been friends for probably a decade and a half now and met when he lived in Edmonton, we we both had the opportunity to work on a a place branding exercise, I guess, if you could call it that, with the city of Edmonton. The mayor had a task force on the city of Edmonton's image and reputation, and I was a co chair of that with a young lady named Amy Shostak. And we were lucky to work with Todd who who helped us, you know, find a new way to rewrite or retell our story.
Chris:So that was a pretty that was a pretty cool time in in my community, I guess, where I like to be out in the community and and and working things in our community. And it was a great start to a great friendship. So I wanna share on the screen now something more personal. Todd also was, and I don't know if he's done any more of these since, but was the officiant at my wife Lisa and I's wedding. And it was it was just such an awesome experience to have someone who's so elegant with his words to to be there to help when I married my wife.
Chris:And and so, you know, very, very dear friends and, you know, being honest, my one of my biggest concerns in doing this was the nerves of, you know, doing something like this where I less comfortable being in, you know, in the conversation in this aspect and certainly not trained to to interview people. And I knew that there's probably nobody that could speak more profoundly about the topic I want to talk about in in this episode, but also do it from a perspective on the other side of the world and somebody that will make me just amazingly comfortable. So so I was really excited to to invite and get Todd to join us. I I went and asked him and asked him to join us, you know, one of the things that as I've been tracking what he's been doing, you know, and when he moved away from Edmonton to Tasmania and Australia is the work he's doing, the professional work he's doing, also his continuing to write books as an author. And that's probably how I first met him without meeting him was reading his books and fell in love with how he described Edmonton, which is something in a city, of course, we both love, know, for all its flaws that Todd can write so well about.
Chris:So when I when I when I reached out to him and he and Todd sent me a little bit something about what he's working on, his new book, What Gentlemen Do, and I had a chance to, you know, read what Todd had sent me in an email, and and it was really interesting because I guess and Todd, we're gonna we're gonna hear all about this, but you got Richard Florida, of course, the kind of famous, you know, urban and place brand persons, I guess. And when he when I read this and I just thought this really resonated from the work that we tried to do with Make Something Edmonton, and it really resonates with, I think, how you and I maybe even see the world. This quote about your book, What Gentlemen Do gets at something most people miss about struggling cities. They come back to life not from top down policies, but from the ground up. From a kid in a used bookstore, a song played in an empty downtown, a philosophy class that won't quit.
Chris:And Florida goes on to compliment your book and your style. And it was just it was amazing. It made me it reminded me of that work that we did. And I guess I thought, well, this is a great way to catch up, is I'd love to have a conversation and and hear from you, Todd, about what what you've been doing, what you've been up to. So I'll throw it over to you.
Chris:That's a long introduction, but but heartfelt and a lot of personal experience in that one, so I wanted to take the time.
Todd:Well, you, Chris. It's a real honor to be your first guest. I've been watching the Tavern as it grows as an idea, and as a place, and I can't think of a better person to run a podcast. You were an expert on Twitter when it was at its best, and now for you, with your humility and curiosity and intelligence to and warmth to do something like this and and talk to us over the coming months and years, It's gonna be a delight. So lucky me to be your your first guest.
Todd:I can't wait. But as I was listening to you, I was thinking about the only reason I'm where I am is because of you. In Edmonton, we invented a new way, really, for people to express themselves. Cities all over the world constantly hire advertising agencies to give them a new brand, and what we did instead is we just listened to a lot of Edmontonians talking about what it means to live where they live, who they are, what their children might achieve, what would break their hearts if they had to leave this place. And I think it's so powerful to find meaning every day in who we are, where we live, and where we can go.
Todd:And I've tried to take that meaning and and make it not only into my career, but it's an obsession about about cities, about place, about countries that I get to play with every single day. And whoever's hiring me, whether I am working as a consultant or working in a in a day job, the moment inside an organization, building an organization, it's it's such an honor and it's such a thrill to be able to translate that energy and that passion and that and that answer to the question, why do you live where you live every single day, to distill it and turn it into strategy. What what a lucky person I am, and it all came out of what worked in Edmonton, and what we failed at in Edmonton. So I try to respond to that every I
Chris:I would love that having watched you do this now for seven years, how long have you been away from Canada?
Todd:Seven, seven years.
Chris:Yeah. So in seven years, I've you from the, you know, Tasmania branding experience to where you are now, and and and I and it was a vibrant experience in trying to develop Make Something Edmonton because it was risky. We had a different pressure to have just more of a typical branding approach to try to rebrand the city from a logo brand tagline, if you will, kinda perspective. And and and, you know, so it felt great, but it didn't stick. And certainly, it's it's it's really not really there anymore in term I mean, the spirit of what it was is always there.
Chris:But what what was the mistake made there? Do would you say now, Todd, with the perspective you have, or would you feel strongly that it was just a it was less a mistake and more just a lack of commitment?
Todd:We had thousands of people working with us. It it worked better than I ever imagined when we asked people to take this story that we uncovered, the Make Someday Edmonton story, which is really about a spirit of of entrepreneurship plus cooperation in an isolated northern place where you have to work together. A lot of people coming relatively recently and tapping into something that had been there in an ancient way in that location. Just go out and do it. This is your city.
Todd:Just go out and build stuff. And and rather than us putting it up on billboards, we invited them to to go out and improve their city. And I think in the early days, we thought we might have a 100 projects, and we ended up with over 3,000. We filled the Winspear Center with people who'd been involved. It was those early adopters, those hyped up millennials really did something with us, and the problem was, at the time, the city of Edmonton didn't like it or trust it.
Todd:The city machine. And when you leave out the city machine, they wait you out because they have such institutional power, and they will be funding this forever or not. If they're not playing, eventually, they'll wait, and they'll kill it. They'll just move on. They'll they'll put their funding elsewhere.
Todd:And I think that was the mistake. You you need you need to make them a big part of this, and you need to help them win using the story. And that's what I got wrong. We battled them for a while, and they cleverly just waited till the moment when there was a there was a bit of a funding discrepancy, and it just died. And that's what institutions do.
Todd:They'll just they'll kill you. So I think ever ever since then, what led me to Tasmania, really, was after Edmonton consulting for other places. In North America, I got to do it in Europe a bit. Africa, it ended up in Australia. And I learned from that right away that you really need to involve the city, involve the place, and make them winners.
Todd:Hey, Todd. I gotta ask you. Is that an Edmonton problem? Is that a North American problem? Because you're seeing it from a different continent.
Todd:It's a human being problem. Need you need to have the business community. You need to have the community community. You need to have the artists. You need to have the young people fired up who understand, here's a problem we can solve every day.
Todd:Let's get involved. But you also need the forever owners of the institution, which is the city government or the state government or the government government if it's a if it's a nation. You need you need to make them winners too. And you need to actually become more than we were in Edmonton. You need to become a laboratory and a strategist in the backroom, helping them succeed every single day because the big battle they have, you're all strategists.
Todd:Randomness is the enemy of good strategy. New ideas come in, new things happen, and what we all want, of course, is to create a box. This is who we are. This is how we succeed. Every single day, we deliver this.
Todd:And if we give that to the city, which usually has few resources, and they themselves want to succeed like any other business would, If you give that to them, away, don't make it about you, and help them succeed every single day from writing the mayor's speeches to informing and helping every team in the city deliver what they're delivering in that Edmonton way or in my current job, that Gold Coast way, that's how you do this. You're a strategist more than a communicator, and you just like a client service, you help your clients win every single day using this magical thing you have that the citizens themselves created.
Chris:So the natural question, and this is a whole another season maybe, let alone episode, and I'm gonna bet I'm gonna betray the principles of what I'm hoping to accomplish here, which is to stay mostly away from partisanship. So I'd like to ask, like, how does the even just the normal cycles of electoral leadership changes where the vision of the leader has such an impact on the vision of the place and and the, frankly, culture of the place and the tone. And and and because, you know, we we see many examples, which I wanna get into on this show. I wanna talk about these, you know, places, particularly Canada, but also possibly we get back to this Edmonton and Alberta conversation. But in your experience, what you've been doing with these organizations you work with, and and you continue to kinda study and improve the approach, how how do you defeat the cycles of visionary leader change?
Chris:You know, good or bad on and, you know, I I think that's that's one of the challenges.
Todd:The way I described you, Chris, earlier as as being this humble, curious person, intelligent person who wants to do well every single day, those are the qualities of leadership. You wanna inspire people to act. So clients that I've had in the past, and the only ones who would ever hire me anyway, they have to be in the right mindset. If if you have a command and control totalitarian leader who already knows this stuff, they'll never hire me anyway. And and it may be that when you do the research, they're contradicting the brand every single day.
Todd:Those aren't ideal clients for me. So what you really wanna do is is find someone who who really wants to bottle up. You used the word spirit earlier. Spirit of the place, the truth of the place, and and to make it the core of everything. And so you really need someone who's who's ready to do that, who's ready to be helped, who genuinely wants to understand what the people of this place want, who they are, where they're going, why they're here, and what they want to achieve together.
Todd:If if a person finds all of that disappointing or upsetting or not in line with their five year Stalinist plan, there's no way this will work. So I I suppose that's that's the way. You can you can watch someone. We have a case study in The United States where someone who understands branding deeply, the entire value is in the brand, yet contradicts the American brand every single day. That's something that that's not an ideal client.
Todd:What you sort of want is someone who's so curious about this, and it's not so much about them personally. It's more about what can we achieve together in that kind of bloody minded and beautiful way. That's an ideal client, and I I've been lucky enough to have that in the past. And part two of the answer is the forever work here outlives political cycles in the same way that it outlives the brand, the logo, the tagline. There is something deeper, anthropologically deeper in a place that will outlive all of this.
Todd:And that's why I think it's interesting talking about Edmonton. Nothing I was just there recently. Nothing really has changed from 2011, Chris, and we started doing that work. Edmonton is still Edmonton. The core of the place, why it is, it just needs to be bottled up and activated in a new era for a new audience.
Todd:But nothing really changes except that two year or four year political cycle or branding cycle or new logo cycle. That's the that's the short term stuff that's not can have a huge impact, but it's not the long term value.
Chris:I I'm you know, I I I guess I also feel that the kind of eternal wave of younger people holds a lot of that up. It carries a disproportionate amount of the weight as I wouldn't I wouldn't describe myself that way anymore, and and you can gain a certain fatigue when it comes to having to defend, you know, your civic identity and brand and image and reputation and and still fight over tax bills and and worry about essential things that aren't always there. You know, so I think it's it's it's interesting, and and and I'm hopeful, but yet it seems more more interesting, more complex today for some reason being, I think, largely because of the the social media forces and the the snippets of how people consume, you know, an idea. There's a Twitter account, of course, about Edmonton that if you followed, you'd think this place was, you know, like, just hell on wheels. And and the reality is that some of the content and the way young people also consume content.
Chris:So it's really been interesting. Let's switch gears quickly. I I I've I've been it's great to catch up professionally. It sounds it sounds and certainly, it's been impactful because I've seen the effects of it and the awards that you've been able to create. But you're writing, you know, I've always been more interested in you as an author and as a storyteller, and I don't read as many novels as I should anymore.
Chris:But I've read yours and some of them twice, and I enjoy them because they're about my you know, generally either my place where I live, but also I think you and I share an age and a and kind of a we've cut from similar backgrounds in terms of, you know, childhoods, and and I've always enjoyed how you tell your story, but not your story specifically, but how some of that symbolism shows up in your books. And you've got a new book coming out with what just has been amazingly endorsed in that quote by Florida. What can you tell us about that?
Todd:You'll you'll recognize everything I will now say, but this new novel coming out because it hits everything we've been discussing. It's about a 20 one year old boy who lives in one of these sad, misunderstood, underestimated cities, and he's he's caught up in the the manosphere a little bit, the online grievance machine. He blames everyone else for his his problems. All he sees around him is wealth and success, and he, as a young white male, can't get it together. And he's been fed a lot of really profitable stuff from podcasts and and elsewhere.
Todd:He's in a bad place. And by accident, he ends up he's forced into essentially an introduction to stoicism class. And his professor, who's from New York, really inspires him, teaches him a little bit about stoicism, then he goes deep into Marcus Aurelius and Seneca and and Epictetus and and starts applying it to his life, comedically, but seriously as well. And he decides, when he learns, she's going to be leaving. She's got a job back in New York, and he's really invested in her, as well as his childhood friends who he's lost contact with and someone he was in love with as a younger guy.
Todd:He decides what he can do because stoicism is all about what's in my control and what's not. He decides to fix his town. He's gonna turn his fictional city of Walleye into something better than New York City. So that's what he does. The rest of the novel is, can he do it, and can he keep people in his town?
Todd:Gotta ask. Is is this a guy you know? Is this a collaborative effort of people that you've met? Who is this guy, Todd?
Todd:Well, I suppose Chris mentioned growing up similarly. I grew up poor around a lot of rich kids, and I didn't know what to make of it myself. So it's not the right era, but certainly, it's something I deeply remember. It's a big part of me. Daughters are are 20 and and 18, and so I was watching young men around them, my nephews, other young men, and then I think we have all watched what's happened with a very profitable, manipulative, cynical group of people taking that grievance and anger and and making a whole business out of it and what it's doing and how it's destroying a whole generation of young men.
Todd:So I suppose, sociologically, I'm interested in it, but it's it's kind of me in the sense that I'll always be that kid growing up in a in a city that everyone makes fun of. And that doesn't mean anything, and we'll never achieve what everyone else is achieving in the world. So that underdog thing is is something that I I find endlessly fascinating, and I try to make it funny rather than bleak and hopeful rather than hopeless. And so that's it's kind of my wheelhouse, I suppose. I keep going back to it.
Chris:I'm getting I I I wanted to bring up the the the book cover, Todd. You shared you shared with us what looks like a preview. I don't know if this is allowed to be shared, so I apologize if it isn't. But yeah. How do you inspire a book cover?
Chris:I'm actually I've always been curious about that. I I I I don't think I could get to writing a book even, but the I always the thought of what would be on the covers seems to flip into my head. How how do you do that?
Todd:It's funny. I can take you through a little process. So they they gave me two options. One was very artistic and modern, and it looked like one person I showed said, oh, that looks like it belongs in a museum, like a beautiful book cover. And then this was a little bit more playful, a little bit perhaps more inviting, a little bit more mysterious.
Todd:And they they go back and forth a little bit. It was zoomed out at first, and then it zoomed in, and where the words are change. I'm color blind, and so I I do try to get involved in the conversation, but I mostly just show my family and friends to say, one what do you think? They tend to to give you one or two. A previous novel I wrote called The Empress of Idaho is being re released at the same time as Monument, it's called now.
Todd:And they had two covers, completely different. And the same thing, I just showed a bunch of people and it split almost fifty fifty, and then I just let the publisher make the decision. So they they do give you a bit of creative leeway, but I have found mostly, I let people who understand design a lot better than me make those decisions. But it is it is really fun to see something you create and have inspire a designer, and then and then turn into something. It's it's a wonderful experience to just watch it, to see those emails come in, and then to be able to look at it, and show your friends.
Chris:I haven't been able to think much since you said Empress to Idaho, because I remember reading the book, and it was, you know, titillating enough in terms of kind of that fantasy of, you know, a young guy, and I'll look forward to rereading it. Is it gonna be changed in any way, or is it is it just simply to be republished to get broader distribution? I I would say I think it was probably one of your like, the novel I most enjoyed reading.
Todd:Yeah. I love that one. I think that one and and this current one, they're my they're my favorites. So I'm glad they're republishing it. I just think they they wanted to and it was apparently in house.
Todd:The publishing house loved it too, and they it came out at a funny time, I think, in 2019 in in culture. It was a weird year, and then turned into an even weirder year in 2020. So I just think they wanted to to take another crack at it, give it a new title and a new cover. Yeah. It's it's really exciting.
Todd:I can't I can't wait for people to to read it.
Todd:Hey, Todd. I gotta ask. When did when did you start wanting to write? Like, at what age? When did was it a teacher that recognized that you had this ability, this skill?
Todd:Like, what got you going? In
Todd:grade six, my teacher, missus Evans, she gave us thirty minutes every Monday morning to write in the diaries or to write stories, whatever. And so I wrote these stories. And as I was writing them, she was reading them, and she called my parents in for a meeting, and it sounded pretty grim. And I was sitting outside the office, and I heard them talking. And she basically said that I need to see a psychiatrist.
Todd:There was something dangerous and frightening about me because these these stories were about cannibalism and and murder and whatever I thought sex was when I was in grade six. I I had no filter. I was just writing these things, and it frightened her. And I thought that I was going to get in trouble. I remember the drive home in the car.
Todd:But instead, my parents, I heard them laughing in their room, and they they photocopied all these stories that I'd written. And it was generally about my family, my extended family, and I gave them I gave them roles, and I I made fun of them. And she they gave them to these family members as as presents. And I I loved being the the kid nervous kid listening as they're reading these stories and laughing. And I suppose I got hooked at that time, though I never I never thought, and I still don't, that it can be a full time job.
Todd:Full time job. It's been my wonderful side hustle that that feeds my career and and vice versa as long as I've as long as I've been an adult as well.
Chris:I'm I'm curious, Todd. Let let's let's switch gears a little bit to the view you have of Canada from where you sit now, and I'm sure, like, seven the last seven years particularly couldn't be described as normal in any capacity on the planet. That's probably redefined everything in terms of how we perceive and understand, you know, nations and countries and places. You know, I think everything seems to be getting redefined in kind of geopolitical terms in a number of ways. And, you know, when I was thinking about chatting with you, the real real interesting thing to me is and something that I'm hopeful for is the kind of a reemergence of the Canadian identity in in a context of something that I align to, and that's this sense of service and community and country and, you know, what our sovereignty in many ways has been, you know, made fun of for sure and perhaps attacked in other ways.
Chris:You know, we we went through a pandemic. We've gone through a certain very distinct political leader style for ten years that's, you know, kind of very seemingly abruptly changed. And all of a sudden, in a at a very important time, we seem to be emerging as a a world leader in kind of global macroeconomic thought, a trade, you know, the antidote to the Trump situation, but also something bigger it seems. Just maybe just a sentiment rise. And and I I I would I just love your perspective.
Chris:And I think about, like and I don't know why I keep thinking like this, but the the idea of looking through the wrong end of a telescope, and it looks like almost infinite, and then looking through one lens of a telescope, you know, where, you know, the worldview is so zoomed in, and I feel like as a Canadian, we can see ourselves in certain ways. We're proud of ourselves and probably anxious about ourselves in certain ways, and we don't necessarily ever know the worldview of Canadians and how maybe immaterial we may be in the world and and perceived in other ways, and that's that other side of the lens. And now you're flipped right on the other side of it. You're a person who understands place and story and kind of, I think, community, certainly. What's your view of Canada now?
Chris:Did and it what was it? And when you left, and what what is it now? And, you know, what should we know about ourselves that we maybe aren't thinking about right now?
Todd:Well, what Canadians should know is Canada has an immensely good reputation, unbelievably good reputation. And that is anecdotal, but it's also quantitative. When when you look at what brand finance and and resonance and these other kind of place brand measurement companies, what they do, or just brand measurement companies. Canada's always either number one, number two, or number three. I mean, everyone knows Canada, understands Canada, and and thinks that we are the antidote to something, even if they can't explain what it is.
Todd:In fact, I would say, as a Canadian, I'm I'm often nodding and smiling because our reputation sometimes outstrips what's actually happening, which is what a wonderful place. I mean, our our reputation is excellent internationally, and I I would hope Canadians understand that. Sometimes I see on social media people complaining that no one no one likes Canada or our reputation's poor. Not true. Canada has an excellent reputation.
Todd:So that's one thing. The other side is moving away from Canada, as you know, just gives you a better understanding of what you walked past every day and didn't notice. That, you know, not only things like universal health care, which is something that even Australians probably wouldn't wouldn't understand or or know. We're supposed to have universal health care in Australia, but it's different. It's not really like that.
Todd:And and then public schools, having the the kind of education that I had as a kid and my children were able to have in in Canada, that sense of equity where you usually go to your neighborhood school, The private school Anglo thing is not really happening to separate you out into forever success and forever struggling. Bringing people together from from different socioeconomic, different ethnic, different different communities, rich, poor, boy, girl, everything is so good. And I remember sitting in many, many rooms where here in Australia, where they'll they'll bring in young people at an adult event, and they tend to go with the most elite private school. I love Australia, but it's just a thing that happens here. In Canada, this wouldn't happen.
Todd:And I think the French influence into Canada, and and then with the English, and then with with kind of the what John Ralston Saul calls the the the the the Metis aspect of our of our country, just the mixedness from the very beginning and having three leadership structures in the early days, things have done a lot for Canada and and has created a culture that we sort of look past without understanding. There are things we can we can fix certainly, but we're at a moment now, and I know you don't wanna get political here, but the Mark Carney is unnatural.
Chris:I I don't wanna get political, but you can get political, though. Mark Carney I don't wanna be part I don't wanna be partisan, but I wanna have, like, really pointed conversations about the shit that's good, bad, or broken, and that that requires us to get through politics, but certainly not necessarily in an opinionated way, more in a curious way. So Yeah. You know, I'd love your frank observations on kind of our political like, how the candidate is seen politically, I guess, or what you were gonna mention there.
Todd:Well, yeah.
Chris:Don't pull any punches.
Todd:Almost apolitical with with Mark Carney, but at the moment, he just seems to do a really nice job of of what a strategist should do, listening, distilling, expressing, and turning that into into strategy and action. Doesn't seem too distracted by political opportunism. He seems to understand Canada's place in the world, its strengths, and what we can achieve together in a way that I've kind of not seen a leader do in my lifetime in Canada. So that's that's really nice. I don't I don't see a lot that he's doing that's overtly, nakedly political.
Todd:It's more of an understanding of of Canada, its role in the world, and its potential in in a way that really does excite me, I have to say. And and I think that's that's something that moving away from Canada really gives you is an appreciation for what really works, but also, gosh, if only we knew what our potential was, we could really go after it. And, you know, the competition with our neighbor to the south will never end, but we do have to understand they're just better at certain things than than we are in Canada, and we have to we have to go after that, own what we can own, but do what we're doing now, which is let's make friends with a bunch of other people.
Todd:I have to ask whether or not and because of your distance, whether or not you think that we're now falling back into a default of being overly negative about everything. It just seems that way to me. Now I don't know if that's social media or what it is. Maybe it's the way the way the media is portraying things, but it just seems like everybody immediately goes to the negative these days. And I don't know if that's fair.
Todd:I don't know if that's real, but I I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.
Todd:It's the algorithm. Anger drives engagement. And so if if you're online, all you see is anger. If you're offline and you just listen, you're speaking with people, human beings have not really changed. We we love the notion of opportunity.
Todd:We like talking. We like doing this. We like looking at what Canada is and and could be, and how could we build something together. All of that all of that is true. But a little like the novel I'm writing, that that anger, that that fear and and fury that comes from being online, especially the the Facebooks and what what is now what used to be Twitter, now I don't even know what it is, It's all you'll see.
Todd:And and I think if you live there, all all you see is Canada is a is a dump, and we're not respected in the world. We can't achieve anything, and we're making bad decision after bad decision. And that's that's just not materially true. I think when you when you actually spend time in Canada, and and you you look for just forget it, and just look, and experience the magic of the place, and how people from all over the world can come together pretty unselfconsciously and and build and create, in one generation, transform from poverty to wealth to to have opportunities that people in other places just don't have, and then from time to time, really, really own something. I think Canada has the potential to to do so much more than we're currently doing.
Todd:We have the best of Europe. We can borrow the best of The United States in that. And I think we can go I think we can go far further than than anyone is is recognizing within Canada, certainly online. But I I do think Mark Carney is on to something. And what Chris is showing here is is so good, because even the the idea of making these multilateral agreements with our friends who are always on the sideline makes beautiful sense.
Todd:Let's for let's forget about the big bully and work with our cousins. Let's work with others who think similarly, who are in the same boat, who have the same fears, and who have the same social media grievance engine that is driving so much negativity and forcing us to miss opportunities.
Chris:You know, if if everybody could just plug into Todd when they went to sleep and just listened to it overnight, the Canadians, we would be kinda running through walls and then doing whatever we could do to kind of perpetuate these thoughts. I I I just you know, and I and I wanna go back to your comments earlier that, you know, the the the conversation around politics here actually is is fascinating because Mark Carney has you know, I'm a I'm a traditionally center right free market capitalist, but fairly progressive and, you know, in terms of my politics. But I haven't seen the prime minister act, you know, political in any way. And I think actually, you know, I think what he's done has been an extraordinarily inspiring way to reset Canada's economic confidence. It's pragmatism in the size of government.
Chris:You know, just things that kind of are hard to peg on one political map. And and as a as an entrepreneur and as a person who works in, you know, kind of the corporate world, I guess, if you will, and or at least in the world of, you know, investment and money. Love watching him the way he he acts. He's a political actor. He's very good at it.
Chris:And, you know, when he when I saw this quote, middle powers must act together because if we're not at the table or on the menu, I mean, that's a water cooler joke in a lot of businesses today because of all kinds of things. And it's just good, solid advice, and he seems to be the kind of person that can work in any room. And so I'm I'm I'm extremely proud right now of Canada's identity and how the lift it's it's you know, I think it's maybe giving the world some hope, and I think it's directly related to prime minister Carney. He's the man for the time for sure. You know, I'm shocked how we don't get better optionality out of more the conservative camps, but it seems like, you know, I'd say conservatives and to another degree, those more left of the center are kind of gravitating towards populism, and I think that's a mac there's a macroeconomic reason for that.
Chris:I think there's a a whole backdrop of the cost of living and inflation and some fundamental flaws in how the economic system, you know, is designed. And I think the the income, wealth, age, you know, gap, those are all gonna be insurmountable problems we haven't figured out yet. And that's what's pulling some of these parties more to partisan or sort of populist kind of viewpoints. And yet Carney just seems to be able to dance around just picking the perfect things that, you know, help the country and and seem to help him politically. So it's been really interesting, and and I'm, you know, pretty thankful that right now we've got a leader like we do, and and we'll definitely see where it goes.
Chris:I I, yeah, I'm hopeful, but it's a dangerous world, and it feels like the world's increasingly getting more complex by the hour. So lots can change. I you know, Todd, I I I appreciate that. I'd love to you know, if we wanna wrap on something in a conversation that we we started at the top of the show with and and then but, you know, I know we could dive into forever, but you know Edmonton so well, and you know Edmonton and how it fits in Alberta, and you know, of course, how Alberta fits in Canada. And in that way, you know, we talked about the political structure.
Chris:You mentioned our three levels of government being an asset to our country, and I was trying to understand how I I I suppose in a in a balance of power way, it's it's it's created a social construct that that balances certain tensions, but it also seems to be the ultimate bane of our ability to get anything done is and I'm looking from from the lens of Edmondson, which is, you know, very at least at least has shown very kind of progressive left of center, you know, tendencies and and and making decisions that that feel are in opposition in some ways with the political parties at the provincial level. And then, of course, between them is the that indifference or difference between Alberta and Canada politically. And and, you know, with with the experience that you've gained, with the ability to access cultures, I I've never been to Australia or New Zealand or any of those, you know, kind of South Asian countries, but I feel like Australia. I don't know why. I feel like Australia is gonna be very much like Canada, but bigger and more dangerous stuff that could bite you.
Chris:And, you know, in many ways, I feel like we'd be similar, and I and I'm curious. Your perspective on Edmonton and and and Alberta and how it can, you know, kind of shape or form its identity or what it should do to do that. It would it would be it would be interesting to get your perspective on that now, and you could speak maybe more freely about it.
Todd:It's interesting for you, Chris, thinking like a business person about all of this. And I've tried to take those principles into this work that I've been doing ever since we started doing this in Edmonton. I work for the Gold Coast now, and the way that your your ultimate strength can be your ultimate weakness and and vice versa always comes into play. Here on the Gold Coast, tourism historically has been the number one aspect of the economy tied to development, and it built this place really quickly. And now, as we're trying to diversify away from that, because it's not actually all that true anymore.
Todd:It makes it difficult. The more you talk about tourism, lifestyle, the beach, the sun, the weather, the more difficult it is to look for investment and serious students, and and and so you have that duality, and so you have to find, okay, what's what's the story that unites all of this? And it turns out here, it's just positive transformation. If you listen to people here, it's all about I changed my life in this place, and I couldn't do it in Melbourne. I couldn't do it in Sydney.
Todd:I I was totally locked out of the leadership structure in London, or wherever I was from. And here on the Gold Coast, no one cares about that. I can just go off and do it. And in some ways, it reminds reminded me of Edmonton. When I was doing the interviews in Edmonton in 2011, I heard that from people, that where they were from, it was not possible, and now in in Edmonton, it was.
Todd:And in some ways, looking in despite the social media channels that you talked about earlier that make Edmonton look like a shithole. And by the way, every city in the world has an account like that. It's just something that every city does. It's it's an engagement machine around humiliation and horror. Not unique to Edmonton.
Todd:But what Edmonton does have, as we were saying earlier, that that spirit of enterprise and entrepreneurship, and and we can build from a from a sole proprietorship to a multibillion dollar company, from a little festival to the biggest fringe in the world, from a couple of doctors, building a video game company to, you know, one of the best in the world, and then spawning so many others, a training company like your own, doing what you've been able to do from a little idea, but a a new way to do flight training. This is this is the Edmonton story over and over and over again. And if you look globally, if I if I look at the opportunities in Australia, in in Canada, I can't think of another city that would have a relationship between opportunity and cost better than Edmonton. And I know it's still too expensive, but I just looked this morning. You can buy a beautiful two bedroom condo in Garneau, my old neighborhood, for $250,000.
Todd:You can you can make over a $100,000 a year in your in your starting role. Two people wanting to have a child. This is this is a really special opportunity that Edmonton still has. And most other large cities in Canada, Australia,
Todd:you're
Todd:just locked out. It's really difficult for young people to get a start. So if I were a young person betting on any city, I would bet on Edmonton. And if you're there, you stay off social media, and you just look around in the winter, in the summer, Edmonton has it has something that other cities just don't have. Fabulous restaurants, great opportunities to get out in nature.
Todd:It's got those wonderful bike lanes that I love, but it also has really nice infrastructure if you like driving around in your truck. It's got a great little downtown that's just always in need of of love and attention. It has old Strathcona, a lot of fun in the evenings. Everything you would actually want to have in a city, Edmonton has. We can improve the airport, and you can always do better around crime, and things like that that are are going to be kind of forever problems.
Todd:But if you just take an unvarnished look at a sense of opportunity in a place that is open to newcomers, open to new ideas, there's there's really not a better proposition than what Edmonton has. Nothing has changed since the the time that we did this work together, Chris. It just needs to be lit up again, and I'm afraid that the the city council spending millions of dollars on a new tagline and a website that an ad agency is gonna build for them, unless they're unless they're listening to the work we did ages ago, they're not gonna do it. What what does it is just people understanding this this city for the next ten years could achieve so much based on it being open to young people and open to a sense of opportunity that no other place has. Your children will have a better education at Edmonton for free than almost anywhere else in the world.
Todd:What better proposition could there be knowing that you will also find a great job? You'll be able to build something, and when you when you want, you can go off and start that business yourself, and you can be Chris Labossiere.
Todd:Chris, I I and Todd, I I gotta bring up something. So so I'm older than both of you guys here. So I go back to 1978, which was my graduation year. It's also Commonwealth Games in Edmonton. And I really felt that the city was just vibrating over this event that was new and exciting for us, New stadium.
Todd:Just a great feel for the city. The LRT line went in through for for the very first time. The city that got it next after Edmonton was called Brisbane. Right? So what's happening?
Todd:I'm looking at Google Earth right now, and I'm looking where you're living, Todd. And I'm seeing you're so close to Brisbane. You know, they've got the the Olympics are coming up. But tell me a little bit about Edmonton, thought, grew out substantially after the Commonwealth Games. Brisbane came along.
Todd:It's growing at a at a crazy rate, but it just seems that there's a lot in common between these two cities. Am I wrong on that, or is that just the way I'm seeing things? Well,
Todd:the Gold Coast is a city south of Brisbane. It's a city of about 700,000 people, and it's way newer. It doesn't have some of the old traditions and what some people might call an old boys network that that Brisbane might have. So I think the reason I think of Edmonton as being closer to the Gold Coast is it's just open to new ideas. It's open to positive transformation.
Todd:It's it's unpretentiously ambitious the way Edmonton is. Whereas Brisbane, for me, carries a little bit of that Anglo old money and tradition thing that they've tried to replicate in Australia because they didn't have the French, maybe. I'm not sure why. But when you listen to Gold Coasters, they talk about the Gold Coast as a bit of an antidote. The way that Edmontonians talk about Edmonton is a bit of an antidote to Toronto, to Montreal, to to Beirut, to to Tel Aviv, to London, to Paris, where they came from, and they couldn't they couldn't break in.
Todd:Or for another group of of Edmontonians, the way it was in small town Alberta and and the way that Edmonton in that cauldron of of conservative conservative business principles and pretty progressive politics coming together and and having a sense of opportunity. I think what what hurts Edmonton, what hurts Alberta, Calgary can kinda have it, is when you look in, when you listen, if the conversation is all about energy policy, it doesn't represent the city well, and certainly our international audiences, you glaze over. It's it's boring, actually. And just the endless endless conversation about energy policy, It doesn't get at what Edmonton is. It doesn't get at what Alberta is, and we can sort of leave it alone, I think, when we're talking about our place to outside audiences.
Todd:Everyone gets that there's oil, and that policy is kind of a black box anyway. What we should be talking about is everything else we've been able to achieve in Edmonton, all of its all of its richness and economic, social, and cultural diversity where story by story, you can start to see what how this place in some ways is a microcosm of Canada at its best.
Chris:I would I I wanna add here. You've really you've you've pinged something, Todd, that, you know, last week, I was at an at an event with the opportunity to hear The minister present the budget, the Alberta budget, which, you know, on on last Friday, felt like we were gonna have a $9,000,000,000 deficit. And then by Saturday, when the war started, I thought maybe we're in the money here by 10,000,000,000 because of the price of oil, and then then they were gonna use the navy to open the Strait Of Hormuz, and all of a sudden, the Alberta budget's in the tank maybe by 10,000,000,000, like, the span of a weekend. And what I what I was thinking, and I didn't have the guts to stand up because I generally wanna be supportive of government and any government to continue to advance what is the cause of Alberta. And so maybe I chickened out, but I really wanted to, you know, to question a couple things.
Chris:And, you know, one one is an example where I feel like politics has well, two examples. One is really distinct and easy. I think Alberta's moratorium on green energy projects, which, like, shed billions and billions of dollars of, you know, free market economic investment interest in Alberta. Energy is energy. It powers things, and and, you know, the energy companies themselves are being, you know, evolving towards more green energy sources because they're more practical and because they're available and and, you know, the balance of those things is still good business, it looks like, for the rest of the world except for Alberta.
Chris:That's frustrating. But another one that just a story with this. Hang on here in the last couple months. There was about 30 business leaders in Edmonton that, you know, as we used to do, it was actually quite interesting. The first time in maybe what felt like seven years where I was called by a person who said, well, you gotta come to this thing.
Chris:It's important. We need all the business leaders to get together, come to this room, and we're gonna talk about something that's important to Edmonton. And, you know, something we used to do quite a bit, you know, and and the leadership of the city changes some of how a city does that, but the last five years of Edmonton have been challenging, you know, as as everywhere downstream of COVID. But the idea was to attract this defense strategy bank, which is ultimately a new bank that will be stood up that will support NATO countries with about a half $1,000,000,000,000 of money to be invested in defense spending by countries where they'll borrow from this bank to to fund the defense infrastructure that's needed. And obviously, Canada is at the very front of that list or near the front of that list of a $100,000,000,000 of a defense investment.
Chris:And and this this bank is looking for headquarters, and this bank is gonna be, you know, seemingly looks like it's gonna be headquartered in Canada. And and, you know, at that time, it was possibly Singapore, and it really looks like it's gonna be a Canadian bank. And and the city leaders came together and, you know, we had everyone around the table. And who wasn't there was city leadership, you know, really the the the, you know, the the the province, and it was all the agencies that you'd recognize still and some new ones and hybrids of some that you wouldn't recognize that, you know, continue to get kinda thrown together to advance economic development. And we couldn't get cons well, we could get consensus in the room.
Chris:We couldn't get support for our consensus that Edmonton should attract this bank. It's 3,500 head office jobs in a knowledge economy, which has ties to our local defense economy, our defense infrastructure, a lot of the the spending protecting the North would be in Edmonton. And we have, you know, we have a a bank. We have two chartered banks in Edmonton, and we have a bit of a bank cluster. And couldn't get what would be essentially the office of the city and the office of the province to come together and advocate for Edmonton like we were trying to attract the Commonwealth Games as as Brian used as an example.
Chris:And I find that frustrating. It felt like it was an inability or an unwillingness for those two to come together, and we have a prime minister from Edmonton, you know, hopefully wanting to help in in many ways, help us diversify our economy. So those examples where we seem to our political infrastructures interfere with our economic interests, they seem counterintuitive to me as like a free market kind of economy person. And I think that's ultimately the dissonance I struggle with with conservatism today, is slanted so heavily towards, you know, kind of populism and the populist issues. And yet the free market principles that we kind of all normally have to live under are kind of being ignored.
Chris:And, you know, there there's nobody doing that bigger in the planet than Donald Trump. He's says one thing does another thing, and then steals hopefully behind the scenes where where where people can't see. So I I I if you had to if you had to, you know, I guess if you had to to give some advice to Edmonton now, if you were the now if you're here, you know, you're you're very hopeful about what we do and what we are sort of who we are and what we can do and how we could thrive as community. But if you had to advise the leaders of this city right now, what would you advise them to do?
Todd:My my ultimate goal here on the Gold Coast is for leaders to ask themselves when they have to make a hard decision, is this Gold Coast or not? And if we understand that, we can build on our strengths, and we can say no to what we have to say no to. And I suppose that's what we need for Edmonton. And is is this Edmonton or not? We need to know why we'd be asking that, and we need to know how to answer that question.
Todd:And what I think what you're saying is we don't know how, or we're caught up in nonsense instead of thinking about our long term strategy. And what a brand really is is who we are at our best, how we ought to grow, and that's clearly missing. Just just that Edmonton on a page, who are we, and what should we be going after? What are our opportunities, and what's the space we can we can play in? And the two examples you gave around around energy, that short term thinking, understanding that China, if we're not careful and it looks like we are letting them.
Todd:China's just going to lead new energy. They're just they think of energy as energy, and they don't have enough oil, and they're just they're they're doing amazing things with renewables. It's just unbelievable. And why why would we leave that to China? I I don't understand it, and just for political reasons, that's that's one thing.
Todd:It's such an opportunity for Alberta, and we could sit here and go through the list of things from winds to solar to geothermal all the way up to today in how we've left opportunity on the table just because we can't get past oil and gas. So that's that's upsetting and a forever problem, and I think we've had moments where we've done better, but, you know, just need a proper leader, as you say, and we need the business community to express itself forcefully the way that you're talking. And then number two, when you when you have an opportunity to attract someone to Edmonton, what's our proposition? Who what do we stand for? What's the opportunity?
Todd:Who are these people, these 3,500 people, and why would they be coming here? I bet they're looking for what Edmonton offers. The c suite can live anywhere, but they might have 3,000 employees who, if they understood what Edmonton could give them, how it could advance their careers and their lives and their families, generations of their families, would understand that Edmonton has something that a lot of those other cities who are competing for this would not have. Singapore has a really nice warm climate, but you're going to be living in a little box. In Edmonton, you can live wherever you want.
Todd:You're gonna get a mortgage to live in a beautiful place. Your children are gonna go to a magnificent school. You can have fun in the winter outside skiing and snowboarding and and jumping in the car and going to Bampton Jasper for the weekend. In the summertime, Edmonton has a glorious has glorious climate and wonderful things to do all all year. And it's easy.
Todd:We have an airport, you can jump on there, and and go where you need to go. If we were able to to put that pitch together, I don't see how anyone could say no. But as you say, if you have a pretend democracy in Alberta that is really a command and control economy around grievance politics in oil and gas, sadly, we're going to be at the whims at of commodity prices forever. And the economies that are dynamic and wanting to own what comes next are just going to leave us behind. It's been a heartbreaker to see.
Todd:I love what the machine learning and AI industry has done so far in Edmonton. But if Edmonton and Alberta had understood what we had there fifteen years ago, there would be big, big companies headquartered in Edmonton running what's now running the world, and I think it's just a mindset shift that we tried to tap into in Edmonton in 2011, but I think that city at its best is still that city at its best, and finding a way to communicate that to leaders, and even grudgingly bringing in some provincial leaders. But the way to do it is just have your this business community lobbying and telling the truth.
Todd:We're lousy promoters, oh, boys. We're lousy. We just don't tell the world what we can do, what we're capable of doing. I was gonna say
Chris:This sounds like a great spot, Brynn. I have to put in this plug. It's not a paid endorsement for my good friends at the Hansen Distilleries here in Edmonton who came up with this amazing cream liqueur that's flavored candied milk chocolate yeg mini yegs. It's amazing. It's absolutely actually amazing.
Chris:So I'm gonna throw it in there as a as a plug because we have a lot of creative entrepreneurs and we don't tell our story well enough. When we do, we tell it very tongue in cheek and we're very kind of self deprecating in many ways. I think that's part of our style. You know, I didn't I didn't want the show to be all about that, but it's such an important part of Todd and I's history. Todd, you hit something on at the very end, and I wanna touch on that and wrap up on this.
Chris:It's a question that I think I could probably take to any guest I'll have the chance to talk to throughout this experiment. You've got two daughters. We met in that context. When I first met you, I remember lunch at the Silk Hat restaurant and the oldest restaurant in Jasper Ave at Edmonton, and we were just so curious about each other on Twitter and about I was curious about your experience in France, which now I totally understand. As the as the president of the Juno Beach Center and getting the chance to really connect with the community of France and in Normandy, particularly in the town, of course, El Samir where our museum is, it has been so amazing to see the French culture, you know, truly, and especially through the lens of those who appreciate this service that Canadians, you know, brought in the Second World War.
Chris:And but the context of our meeting was my curiosity of your time in France. My curiosity is that you were a journalist, of course, at the time and an author, and we both had daughters. And I remember talking a lot when we first met exploring that, and I shared with you my experience of traveling with my daughters. It was something I did where I couldn't I worked a lot and unfortunately didn't have as much day to day to day time, but we always went on a trip every year. And and now I think about how, you know, we we both have adult now they're adults, all you know, our our our kids and yours are a bit younger, but nonetheless, like, you know, coming into the world both in in in any way is probably in one of the most interesting times possible.
Chris:And and and with AI and, you know, I we've we've we've been playing with it. I know you've I know you're a curious person. I spent a lot of time on learning about AI and agentic AI, and and I suppose I'd give my kids an entirely set of like, set of advice as they are the age your girls are. And I could ask any guest this question this season, and but in your case, because we have that, I I I, you know, I happen to know that you're the proud father of two daughters and a husband and and, you know, we care most about our children and we care most about the you know, when then we care about their children. Alarmingly, a lot, maybe not more, but grandchildren are pretty awesome, so, you know, you'll experience that, I hope someday.
Chris:But if you had to advise your kids now or if you were advising kids now in an AI world, in a world of Donald Trump and what what what do you tell them today? I mean, how do you advise them to navigate that first launch, if you wanna call it that of that age of, you know, new adult? What do you tell them today? Is it is it is it remarkably different than, you know, by era, or or is it specifically something you'd say now? I'm curious.
Todd:It's it's funny that it's also strange that I've just written this novel, which is all about a 21 year old man who's lost. Then I have these two daughters who are doing much better than than him, and then cities that seem to be struggling. And what they have in common is what we all want is confidence to go out into the world and and offer a gift to that to the world. And I suppose figuring out what that is and in the context of of AI and and, you know, the forever disruption of of politics, geopolitics, whatever that might be, in a world where human creativity may be the only thing we can we can hold on to that will be forever valuable. Figure figure out what it is that you feel made for, your your talent, your experience, the expertise you're developing, and just try to bottle that up and and offer it to the world to help and to provide value.
Todd:And we're all going to go off and make mistakes and try things and fail, and maybe we're great at podcasting. Maybe we're not. Maybe we're good at writing. Maybe we're not. Maybe we're really good at starting companies.
Todd:Maybe we're Whatever it is, go out there and and try it. Figure it out. And I I think if we if we tap into that try fail, try fail, try fail, but being true to what what feels like us, you know, with confidence, we can offer that gift to the world, provide value. That's what I'm asking them, or offering some advice, because I struggled with that myself. I continue to struggle with it.
Todd:Be playful about it, but, you know, just go off, and and try to think of of you and your your talent and what lights you up as a as a gift. That's that's what I've tried to tell them, and stoicism has been helpful for me, and I try to let them let them understand too. If you can't control it, don't fret about it.
Chris:I I I don't totally understand solaceism, I guess, as a as a high level concept, but it reminds me of my old boss, Stan, who is kind of a mean crusty guy who was quite proud of the fact that he dropped out of school at eight years old and became an uber wealthy, successful capitalist and, you know, entrepreneur. And he just basically, you know and I I always accepted this anyways, but he always hammered into us just don't don't worry about anything you have no control over. Just don't ever if you have no control of it, why are we fucking talking about it? Mean, is that direct? And if that's stoicism, I don't think he would carry that label.
Chris:It wouldn't have certainly been in his obituary, but he was a was a guy that felt the same way. He wasn't bothered by things he had no control over. But that was a a beautiful way to to hopefully provide some sense of hope for those who kind of are facing all of this uncertainty. I I would condense it and say, you know, get a YouTube premium account and get curious really fast. I I I if if if one thing I would hopefully just try to push into my kids is, you know, stay curious.
Chris:The world's changing very quickly, and you can learn a lot. I've learned you know, I'm in my mid fifties, and you can't stop playing with all this stuff. So but, Todd, you've you put the best words on it always, and you, even from Australia, have represented Canada as as an artist and as a as a storyteller and as an entrepreneur. So I really appreciate having you. We could talk for hours, and we miss you here in Edmonton, and I hope we get to see see you soon actually in person.
Todd:Thanks, Chris. This has just been so nice to tap back into Canada and to Edmonton to to see and speak to you and and to speak to you as well, Bryn. Thank you so much for this time. Wow.
Todd:That was our first one. I thought that was great. I thought that was fantastic. I don't know how you felt about it, Chris, but I thought you did a great job. Todd, obviously, is is a great guy.
Todd:We just gotta promote it better. I guess I'm still going to and why you have a bottle with you, Chris, tells me that you're at the Tavern, and I'm in my studio at home. That's gonna change as we do more and more in this series. Okay?
Chris:Yeah. Well, it's it's always gonna there'll always be something open next to me here, and it helps with the nerves. I I you know, honestly, it's just easy when you can have a conversation, and I think I should have focused more just on the very high level arc of what it is that I hope to chat about and make it conversational. But I knew Todd would essentially make that easy on the other side on me because he's such a great communicator. So I hope it didn't turn into too much of a an Edmonton bullshit session because I didn't want it to be that, but it's so impossible not to talk about that considering in many ways how I think we've completely fucked that file up.
Todd:Well, we'll mix we'll mix it up a fair bit on this podcast, which is great, which as I said, we we're gonna be on Spotify. We're gonna be obviously on Apple, on the audio side, and video wise on YouTube as well. So lots more coming your way. And if you need to know more about what Barney Taverns is Barney's Tavern is all about, just go to the website, which is obviously barney'stavern.ca. Right, Chris?
Chris:Yes. Indeed.
Todd:Okay. Thanks for joining us today.
Chris:Thank you, Todd.
Todd:Thanks, guys.