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Is spatial computing the next real channel...or another metaverse mirage? Adam Ortman (CEO/Founder, Kinetic319) brings operator truth: how to explore AR/VR without gambling the quarter, what the 1990s internet can teach us about adoption curves, and the 70/20/10 test budget that protects your core while finding edge wins. We also cover where the early inventory actually is (Roblox, console placements) and the leadership scripts that keep experiments sane.
You’ll learn
- A simple checklist for “is immersive worth it for us… now?”
- The 70/20/10 play to test bold ideas without blowing trust or budget.
- Channels to try first and how to attribute them sensibly.
- One EnergyOS move to keep curiosity high and hype low.
Guest links
• Site: https://kinetic319.com/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-ortman/
• Email: adam@kinetic319.com
Work with Adam
👉 Book your 20-min Exploration Call: https://calendly.com/adamwbarney/explorationplugin-20min
Creators and Guests
What is Is Anything Real??
Is Anything Real? is the Reality-First Leadership podcast for builder-leaders who want outcomes, not optics. Each week, Adam W. Barney sits down with founders and operators to unpack positioning, marketing, community, energy management, and influence - plus the numbers behind what actually worked.
You’ll hear: a quick Reality Check, a practical Proof Stack (inputs → actions → outcomes), and one EnergyOS habit you can run this week. Specifics over slogans; humane systems over hustle cosplay.
New episodes every Wednesday at 12:00 PM ET.
👉 Book your 20-min Exploration Call: https://calendly.com/adamwbarney/explorationplugin-20min
[00:06.6]
Welcome back to "Is Anything Real?", the podcast where we throw virtual tomatoes at cookie cutter ad strategies and ask the big questions like are we on the cusp of an AR revolution or just reliving the dial up drama of the 1990s with cooler headsets and fewer AOL CDs?
[00:25.0]
I'm your host, Adam W. Barney, ad industry survivor, energy coach to high performing humans, and someone who still remembers watching TRL while waiting 12 minutes for Napster to download a Dashboard Confessional MP3. And today I'm joined by a fellow Adam, the Adam Ortman, CEO of Kinetic319, an agency that's gone from startup scrappy to 16 strong and growing, with clients ranging from early-stage builders to billion-dollar beasts.
[00:54.8]
We're talking AR, VR, and the future of brand connection. But we're doing it with a twist through the lens of what we got wrong and actually right about the 1990s Internet. Adam, welcome to the show. Thanks so much, Adam. I love that intro as well.
[01:10.5]
Thank you. Happy to be here. Awesome. All right, set the stage for us. Kinetic319 is working across all stages of business. Where are your clients' heads at when it comes to AR/VR right now? Frankly it's early days so I honestly don't think any business really knows where to take themselves in this day and age.
[01:32.5]
And I, and I love this topic about having this flashback to the 90s and having literally verbatim the same questions that people were asking or topics that they were talking about the Internet at the time. You know this, is this just a fad? Is it actually going to change the way that we live our lives?
[01:50.5]
How? I won't use something like that. It's very, very interesting to hear these conversations happening and what we're doing at Kinetic319 with this specific topic is just to be open to the idea, just having very general brainstorming ideas of how can my brand or your brand engage with consumers in this type of environment.
[02:15.3]
So we're not necessarily doing anything truly actionable today, but it's more about being open-minded about the future. Gotcha, gotcha. And I also know you wrote that incredible piece, "VR will kill the video star" was the riff. You know, what exactly are the 90s era questions that you're hearing all over again in 2025?
[02:36.8]
Yeah, it's really about that technophile mentality. Right. So the early adapters will jump on soon. And I mean with AR/VR, we see AR/VR today, right? We see it with Meta and their Facebook and their headsets.
[02:52.3]
We see Apple coming out with their own and you're going to have the early adapters come on. But as technology becomes cheaper, as accessibility becomes more prevalent, with the Internet, we saw very similar items, right?
[03:09.6]
So with the integration of every, you know, a phone in everybody's pocket, where you can access the Internet or email to revolutionize communications. So there's a lot of different ways that we are looking backwards at that time to really start to say, well, what's going to evolve in our lives if this new revolution does happen to us?
[03:31.1]
And from a marketing perspective, I am ecstatic about the idea because I love this kind of big thinking, heads in the clouds kind of ways of, you know, how does a brand, you know, create new customer relationships, create loyalists, and how do they interact with their customers in a brand new way that no one's ever thinking about?
[03:54.2]
And that really goes back to the Internet as well, where you had to think about my business, which was a physical storefront with flowers in the front and signs on the windows. How does that translate itself into a digital world? And that was really revolutionary at the time.
[04:11.1]
That's incredible. And I mean, you know, obviously with Apple Vision Pro and those Meta glasses you mentioned, it feels like we're partly going through what I guess I would call a clunky hardware phase. What's your take on where it's actually going for marketers and then thinking about our brands too late, too early, or right on time to be taking it seriously?
[04:31.9]
Well, I was pulling some stats in preparation for this, and I thought they were really interesting. So looking at BlackBerry was really the big headliner in the U.S. Nokia was the largest shareholder in the world when the iPhone came out in 2007.
[04:49.2]
And so you see now in the US Apple dominates with over 60% of the market share with cell phones and things of that nature. You also look at other, the computer, the tablet, things of that nature, where Apple is never really the entrant brand into a category, but they bring a more consumer-centric hardware to the stage.
[05:16.4]
And that's really interesting because I see something similar happening here with AR, VR, and wearables in general. And so Meta today has over 70% of the wearable share. And that's really from a gaming perspective.
[05:32.1]
Right. So when we think of AR/VR today, it's mostly kids, they're playing, I mean like Fruit Ninja until all hours of the morning. But when Apple steps up, I think that they bring a more, a more practicality to their hardware as it pertains to this specific topic.
[05:53.1]
So I think it's going to be interesting to see what happens because this technology is only going to become cheaper, it's only going to be lighter, batteries are going to last longer. So going back to the Internet conversation, it's going to become more accessible. And with that accessibility and that price point, adoptability increases, and so that's going to change the way that individuals are interacting with this type of technology specifically.
[06:18.4]
So the hardware is going to be interesting because you see this race happening today. You see this with Meta coming out with the Ray-Ban. Right. I think that's coming up soon. Snapchat had their glasses for a while, and now the new evolutions are going to be coming out here soon.
[06:36.5]
And it was amazing that I was just reading an article about Amplify, which is a business that does a lot of measurement around attention. And so they did a, OMD did a test with Snapchat about their AR offering, and it increased attention and propensity of conversion by 53%.
[06:56.2]
So these are early, early, early tests that are showing signs of, just usage and impacts on the kind of capitalistic conversation we're having. So it's going to be really interesting.
[07:11.5]
And the hardware right now is very. We know we're toddlers at the moment with this type of technology, but, Adam, when you look in seven years in the future, five to seven years in the future, we could be playing a whole different ball game. Right? Right. And this is one where I think it's not just another hype cycle, also.
[07:28.2]
Right. But are we seeing another Metaverse flame out, or is this actually different from what we saw there? I think that's the question. Because what is that centralized digital world, the Internet?
[07:44.2]
Right. What is that new Internet centralized location? Because with this, you can have any type of worlds that exist. I mean, you kind of see it now with like Roblox and Metaverse and kind of these other ones. But I would not be extremely shocked if you start to see like an Axis or a Ticketmaster come out with their own world or a Disney start coming out with their own world where you're creating, where a brand that inherently creates and stimulates events or environments, rethinking how that could look.
[08:18.8]
How a E-commerce brand could look though, maybe that idea of the brick and mortar mall, which has kind of fallen to the wayside in the physical world, maybe there's a new commerce world where everybody kind of has a storefront. You know, I think about this a lot because I do think that we're on this precipice of that technology is just there, and AI is going to incredibly accelerate the way that we code this.
[08:45.2]
And brands should be ready for that next step. Right. I mean, I can totally envision where Hot Topic comes back. I miss my Hot Topic. I miss it. But it could be driven by that, unlocked by that AR/VR piece of it, that static content just can't rebuild off of.
[09:08.5]
Right? Yeah. So the other thing is, I don't think a lot of brands realize, I mean we do it now for some of our higher ed campaigns that you know, skew more like later teen age; you can buy ads in Roblox today, you can buy ads on PlayStation inventory, on GTO, you know, those types of racing games.
[09:31.0]
So that this idea is existing today, it's just taking it a bit to the next level. Right. And I know also, you know Adam, of course with Kinetic319, you've worked with scrappy startups and billion-dollar brands, who across that swath, that's very wide is experimenting with immersive tech in the truly meaningful ways, and what can others pick up and learn from that?
[09:58.1]
That's good. Again, I think that they're just having conversations today. And I think that understanding your audience as a business is always our first step. And so anytime that we at Kinetic319 bring on a new client, we're really seeking to have a better understanding about their business than any other agency team.
[10:17.7]
So we're interviewing their founders, we're interviewing their leadership team, we're understanding their goals not only today, but what is the next five years, who is their audience and what products or services are you, as a brand, bringing to that audience to help better their lives?
[10:34.7]
And so we do a lot of onboarding here. And in that conversation, obviously if you're selling today, Medicare supplement plans. AR/VR, probably not the best medium for you to be considering in the short term.
[10:50.6]
Right. But the example that I gave, like higher ed, we're absolutely taking advantage of that because one, the inventory is pretty cheap, right? Well, keep that a secret because I don't want you all jumping on that inventory. Inventory is really cheap. But it's also right in front of the primary audience that we're wanting to target.
[11:10.9]
And so with that, that understanding of the audience has to align tactically with your marketing plans. So, building these types of marketing plans or campaign executions from an AR/VR perspective, Roblox, PlayStations, etc., those types of inventories make sense.
[11:29.5]
But when it comes to the, you know, how are clients, whether big or small, evolving today? Like I said, I think we're a little too soon for them to be making actionable leaps in that. But getting your executive leadership team together, or you know, if it's just you and a partner, or even just you yourself as a business owner with a small business.
[11:50.3]
Yeah. Think about these things. Right. And start to maybe jot down some notes about how, you know, does, I don't know, does Sketchers put shoes on your feet and fly you around the room in the store? Like that's the thing about this, is that there are no rules, and physics is out the window.
[12:09.6]
So it's truly going to be the next wild, wild west for commerce, for interacting with your customers, for marketing in general. Yeah. And I think that that sort of ties to, you know, cautioning different advertisers, whether big or small, about the risks of sitting on the sidelines too long with this.
[12:28.4]
That's a dangerous position to play. The Blockbusters of the world. Right, right, right. Well, but I mean, if you could hand today's marketers a mixtape of what not to do from the early Internet days, what tracks would be on there, as we work around what's not just the hype curve?
[12:47.6]
Don't dig in your heels would be our single, our top hit single of this type of technology. Incrementality in your testing. So, as it pertains specifically to marketing, put a very small budget against something that is net new.
[13:04.9]
And so at Kinetic319 we have a 70, 20, 10 rule across all of our clients. So what that means is 70% of our budgets are tried and true workhorse dollars. We know what they're going to do for us. The 20% is really looking at the tactics a little differently.
[13:20.1]
Use a different audience, use a different message, use a different promo. That 10% is off the wall ideas right? Out of left field, let's test something we've never tested before. Let's do it responsibly with a very small amount of dollars. The 70, 20, 10 rule is purely a rule of thumb.
[13:38.5]
If you want to do a smaller, great. The idea there is test into things that make you uncomfortable, or maybe things that you don't even think about because you know, lack of success is still a learning. Success is definitely a learning.
[13:53.8]
And so with these types of new ad technologies that are coming out, don't dig in your heels to them, number one. Number two is test incrementally. And those two will help your business succeed in any innovation scenario.
[14:09.5]
Right, right. Because then it's about, you know, when you test incrementally, it's not about blowing the budget. Right. Or blowing trust. It's about doing it, building that growth through experimentation. And I mean, there's a balance there also with performance pressure with those new formats.
[14:28.3]
But that way that you set it up at Kinetic319 is a fascinating way to evaluate that as well and balance it properly. Yeah. And if it works, you roll it into the other 20 and the 70. Right. So it makes you have this test forward mentality which is lending itself very well into these new technologies that are coming out.
[14:49.6]
But it also safe harbors your business from the lifeblood of prospecting, whatever that may be for your business. So yeah, it's a great rule of thumb, and I recommend it to anyone that I speak to. Awesome. What's the wildest thing that you've seen pitched in the immersive space lately?
[15:09.3]
Oh, there's some things that I can't talk about because of NDAs. On on that end, what are the ones that have gotten rejected at the table then that went too far? Right. Shopping experiences, specifically in grocery is really, really, really interesting because one of the biggest pain points, and I was just chatting with someone at Kroger about this, where one of the biggest pain points is that I cannot select my produce.
[15:39.2]
So they're already thinking about, how do we get real images into a virtual environment so that a person can actually pick produce? Really, really interesting stuff there early in its infancy. And I think that a lot of different players are actually talking about this right now.
[15:56.6]
But that's one of the most interesting ones because if you remember through Covid, grocery was really the last one for delivery to really hit. Right. People were still going to the grocery store, I mean, wearing the masks, all that stuff.
[16:11.8]
But grocery I think has come a long way in the delivery world. And, like I said, I think it was probably like one of the last ones to really hit. And they're evolving as technology becomes better. Right. That's incredible. You know, do you see a new era, rather, of spatial computing leading us back to more human connection, or does it ultimately just turn into more digital noise?
[16:39.3]
That is a great question. And there's this whole idea about cyber sickness, I don't know if you've heard about this, which is both like physically sick, where you can get emotion sick, but there's also this idea about cyber sickness of people just getting sick of it. Right. They want to disconnect.
[16:56.4]
I could see it going both ways because you do have these case studies with Apple and FaceTime. Right. You're connecting people visually and communicating, having a much more rich form of communication on opposite sides of the globe.
[17:11.8]
Right. That's where we are today versus where we were writing letters 100 years ago. I only see that becoming more. So you are either going to be having your full body or an avatar in your place.
[17:27.8]
So I do see that being more spatial and interacting with each other in that capacity. But me personally, which might be different is, I want to still go and hike on the weekends and splash around a lake. So I do see, I do want me personally to project my own feeling of, yes, please go enjoy this beautiful planet that we have.
[17:50.1]
But also I understand that there's technology that's going to make things change in the way that we communicate and interact with folks. Right. I completely believe that's going to be the case. And don't in that realm use that Pokemon Go to end up falling into that lake also.
[18:05.3]
Please, gosh, please don't fall off cliffs. Please do not fall into lakes. Take your headset off. Oh my God. I think we're going to see a lot more of that, too. Take your headphones off. Take your vision stuff off. Right? Just be safe.
[18:22.8]
Please. That's your PSA for everybody that's listening. Adam, this was fire. You know, that mix of vision, realism, and just enough, let's say nostalgia to make me want to plug to the dial-up modem and watch old TRL reruns. If you can get it to load. Yeah, I may have seen it on YouTube.
[18:40.8]
It is on YouTube. So, I can have that come together, or I probably have some VHS tapes hidden in my attic that I could probably pull back down. Not that I could find a VCR, but where can folks find you, follow Kinetic319, and read that "VR will kill the video star" piece?
[18:57.7]
Yeah, so that's in our blog. So at www.kinetic319.com is our website. Definitely take a look. We have a lot of stuff coming out. We actually have a lot of our own primary research. So we do a lot of industry-specific research ourselves. We're literally in market surveying hundreds of people across the country.
[19:15.2]
So take a look at a lot of the research that we're doing, not only on our blog, but also in our primary research section. Follow us on social. I mean we're all over social, you know, LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter now X, I still call it Twitter. It will always be Twitter in my mind. Take a look.
[19:30.6]
We post multiple times a week. We actually launched, a few years ago we launched Say Kinetic Tips. And these are once a week tips that are really actionable things for your campaigns. So whether that is trying to, you know, avert some of the Google gotchas, like launching your campaigns with all broad keywords.
[19:51.9]
Take a look at some of these, subscribe for those because we get a lot of really good feedback from those Say Kinetic Tips. Incredible. And those will all be linked below in the show notes. And then Adam, you know, lastly, for the marketer listening who's curious about AR and VR, but they're not sure where to start, what's one small step they could take this quarter to explore the space?
[20:15.3]
I would say take a look at any of the brands that are currently participating in anything like this, or maybe go to one of your local stores and try it out. Right? Try out a vision headset with Meta or even on the Apple side, so you can kind of see where we are today, and that will help you build a bridge to, you know, making some decisions or some thoughts around your business, and giving you some indication of where we're going.
[20:39.8]
Awesome Adam. Well, thanks, thanks for tuning into "Is Anything Real?", the show where we don't just chase shiny objects, we ask if they actually mean something. And I'll leave you with one final thought. If you're treating AR/VR like a gimmick today, just remember we said the same thing about websites in 1996.
[21:01.0]
Don't sleep on what's next. Adam, thank you so much for joining. And I really appreciate it. Thank you, Adam, and thanks to everyone listening. It's a great time. Cool.