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As a small business owner, you need to be a lot of things to make your business go—but you don't have to be a marketer alone. Join host Dave Charest, Director of Small Business Success at Constant Contact, and Kelsi Carter, Brand Production Coordinator, as they explore what it really takes to market your business. Even if marketing's not your thing! You'll hear from small business leaders just like you along with industry experts as they share their stories, challenges, and best advice to get real results. This is the 2x Webby Award Honoree Be A Marketer podcast!
[0:00] Dave Charest: On today's episode, you'll hear from someone who's made a career out of challenging how we think and showing leaders how unconventional ideas can spark extraordinary results. This is the Be A Marketer podcast.
[0:23] Dave Charest: My name is Dave Charest, director of small businesses at Constant Contact, and I help small business owners like you make sense of online marketing. And on this podcast, we'll explore what it really takes to market your business, even if marketing's not your thing. No jargon, no hype, just real stories to inspire you and practical advice you can act on. So remember, friend, you can be a marketer, and at Constant Contact, we're here to help.
[0:55] Dave Charest: Well, hello friend, and thanks for joining us for another episode of the Be a Marketer podcast. As you know, I couldn't do this without her. Say hi to Kelsi Carter.
[01:07] Dave Charest: Hi Kelsi. How are you?
[01:08] Kelsi Carter: I'm doing well. How are you doing?
[01:09] Dave Charest: I'm doing fantastic as always. I feel like we're always doing fantastic.
[01:10] Kelsi Carter: Never a bad day on this podcast to come together.
[01:11] Dave Charest You know what, I like that's a better way to put it. I like that very much.
[01:21] Dave Charest: So have you ever heard of Brian Eno? Do you know who that is? Do you know that name? Do you not know that name. Have you ever heard of the band Roxy Music?
[01:25] I think so, actually.
[01:26] Dave Charest: OK, so a little ways back there, but Brian Eno, I know him through, as you know, I'm a huge fan of the rock band U2, and he's, he used to be in Roxy music for a while, but then he also has gone on to do many, many different things, but he's a music producers one and has famously.
[01:49] Dave Charest: worked with U2 on multiple occasions, which is how I kind of got into him and understood, you know, who he was. And one of the other things that he did, and I don't know how I got down this path, but one of the things he developed over the years was this thing called oblique strategies. Have you ever heard of this? I haven't. And essentially what that is, and I have looked at a little app that goes into this, and I don't know if he's still connected to this app or not, but basically what it would be was you'd have these little cards and when you're in the studio,
[02:17] Dave Charest: He would pull a card, right? And so let's say they're working on a song or doing something and they would pull a card and then you would have to apply what was ever on the card to whatever problem that you were working on or whatever creative block you might be having to a thing. So I'll give you an example here, right? I'm going to use this app, I'm going to tap on the thing and it's going to cycle through a bunch of different things and it says, work at a different speed, right? Yeah, so it's pretty cool. So like whatever you're working on, you're feeling stuck.
[02:45] Dave Charest: It's a thing, so like, look at this as an application towards music, it could mean, OK, like, let's pick up the tempo of this song, right? I'm thinking of that time we were talking to Dr. Knowles about the Destiny's Child song where they, you know, had two versions, right? One was like a fast version and one was like a slow version, right? But even in business, that could mean like work at a different speed. And so what if you had a project that was, you know, scheduled for a month out? What if you had to do that project in 2 weeks? What would that look like, right?
[03:14] Dave Charest: And so it's just this different way of attacking a problem. And I think it's apropos of kind of our guest today when you think of some of the work that he has done. So for example, he would give workshops and do some things like, you know, getting people to perform a song or do some improv or he himself even did a TEDx talk in French when that's not his primary language, right? But all things to kind of get you out of how you would traditionally think about doing something.
[03:43] Dave Charest: And that can help you innovate, right? And help you do things in a different way and, and just get you outside your comfort zone, which of course can lead to you discovering something about yourself and discovering something about your business.
[03:55] Dave Charest: So really interesting stuff, right?
[03:59] Kelsi Carter: I should challenge you to do the intro in French.
[04:01] Dave Charest: Oh, my French is um, which means a little, right? I know Joao Noel. I can say that and yes, there you go, perfect. But thank you for that. So why don't you tell us a little bit about who is joining us today?
[04:15] Kelsi carter: Of course, today's guest is Paul Sloan, a leading authority on lateral thinking, innovation and problem solving in business.
[04:23] Kelsi Carter: Paul is the founder of Destination Innovation, which is a consultancy based in the UK that helps organizations break free from conventional thinking and approach challenges from new angles. Over the years, he's written over 20 books, delivered keynote speeches worldwide, and worked with companies like Microsoft, IBM, Disney, and American Express.
[04:44] Dave Charest: Yeah, as mentioned, Paul's work really involves helping leaders and teams really escape that business as usual and
[04:51] Dave Charest: Uncover what could be, you know, game changing solutions to the work that they're doing, and he blends practical tools with thought provoking exercises, encouraging people really to shift their perspective and see problems and possibilities in a whole new way. I'm excited about our conversation today and in it, you will hear how lateral thinking can really transform everyday business challenges into breakthrough ideas, why small businesses have an edge over large corporations when it comes to agility and innovation.
[05:20] Dave Charest: And how Paul uses tools like Constant Contact, of course, and AI to keep his marketing fresh and targeted even after more than two decades in business. So let's go to Paul as he explains lateral thinking and why stepping away from the obvious path is often the key to finding the best solutions.
[05:41] Paul Sloane: Lateral thinking is approaching problems from a fresh direction. Instead of conventional thinking where we build block on block on block in a reasonable vertical fashion. Lateral means from the side, and it is a phrase coined by Edward de Bono in contrast to conventional thinking, where we tend to go ahead in a predictable and logical way. You come at the problem from almost a random direction in order to come up with a solution.
[06:06] Paul Sloane: So, you know, there was a young man in Paris in 2009, and he couldn't get a taxi because it's very hard to get taxis in Paris, and the conventional solution would be to get the metro, or to catch the bus, or to wait for a taxi or to walk. But he said, no, is there a completely different approach I could take here? Could I harness the capacity of all the drivers in Paris who'd be quite happy to give me a lift for a small fee. And that man was Travis Kalanick, and he came up with Uber, and Uber is
[06:34] Paul Sloane: A lateral approach to the taxi business. Uber is a taxi company that doesn't own a single taxi. It, it's worth $50 billion and all it is is an app that connects people who want to ride with people who are prepared to give a ride. And that's an example of lateral thinking in modern day business. And, and there are many, many others I could give you.
[06:53] Dave Charest: So when you start thinking about lateral thinking and how that applies to business, like, why is that such an important thing? Like, why would people want to embrace that?
[07:01] Paul Sloane: Because it's the key that unlocks innovation.
[07:04] Paul Sloane: If you're quite happy with the way things are and you don't want to change, then you don't need any lateral thinking. But if you're under pressure from competitors and you want to find new ways to meet customers, to reach out to customers, to please customers, to get ahead of the competition, then you need innovation and you need lateral thinking.
[07:22] Dave Charest: Paul, I'm curious, you know, after your experience, the years of experience that you've had, what was the inciting incident that really kind of pushed you to start your own thing?
[07:31] Paul Sloane: Well,
[07:32] Paul Sloane: I'll get after that idea, and the last company I was involved with was a software startup. I was the CEO and it all went pear shaped after 9/11 and uh the demand fell, and we were really struggling, and in the end, I left there and having learned some hard lessons.
[07:48] Paul Sloane: And I decided to start my own business at that stage, and I started as a speaker and facilitator, and I ran workshops. And I did that for a long time, and I've wrote a number of other books, The Leader's Guide to Lateral Thinking Skills is one of my best selling books, and the book I brought out last year was called Lateral Thinking for Everyday, and that contains a lot of modern examples of lateral thinking in various fields from warfare to sport, to music.
[08:15] Paul Sloane: To business, and because it doesn't just apply to business, so that's mainly where I find my clients. And then I developed the online courses, and my best selling online course is Master lateral Thinking, and that has over 10,000 users.
[08:30] Dave Charest: I love that. So,
[08:31] Dave Charest: I mean, did you ever think that this would be the path you'd be going down where you'd end up having your own business?
[08:36] Paul Sloane: I don't think so. I thought I was heading for a standard corporate career. I rose up quite quickly in my 30s and then 40s and then.
[08:43] Paul Sloane: 50s and, and then I decided I really ought to try something different. So I think starting your own business is a great thing to do, and it's really rewarding and challenging, but working in the corporations is good too. So I've, I've done both. I've worked in large companies and small companies.
[08:59] Paul Sloane: And I like working with leaders of smaller companies and medium sized companies to try and help them overcome some of the challenges that they face.
[09:06] Dave Charest: What do you love most about running your own business?
[09:08] Paul Sloane: The freedom, the ability to try things to do, I'm not answerable to anybody except myself. When you've got a boss, and the boss is always demanding things, some of which are good and some of which are not so good.
[09:20] Paul Sloane: And if you do a great job, you won't necessarily get the rewards for it. If you run your own business and you do a great job, you'll harvest all the rewards. If you do a lousy job, you'll learn very quickly and you'll have to
[09:30] Paul Sloane: change.
[09:30] Dave Charest: What are you finding most challenging about doing your own thing?
[09:33] Paul Sloane: Most challenging now is cutting through the noise, getting attention, and reaching out, being in front of people's attention, because there's just so much happening at the moment. There's so much going on out there.
[09:44] Paul Sloane: And social media, which used to work, which used to generate leads, after a while it gets tired and you have to try something else.
[09:52] Dave Charest: Let's shift there a little bit then to that. So let's start with what level of experience would you say that you bring into this coming into it with marketing?
[09:58] Paul Sloane: a lot of experience. I was a marketing director, um.
[09:58] Paul Sloane: I
[09:58] Dave Charest: bring
[10:01] Paul Sloane: I've been heavily involved in direct mail campaigns and marketing campaigns, advertising, all of those sorts of things. And I'd like to think that I'm a creative marketer. There are two aspects of marketing which I like. One is the analytical side, that you can measure responses and you can see exactly what's happening. And the other is the creative side, then you can do, you can try all sorts of weird and wonderful things, and
[10:23] Paul Sloane: One of my recent courses on Udemy is called the Outrageous Marketing Playbook, and it's about how to do really outrageous things in marketing. I, I give a lot of examples of companies that have done this and taking big risks and sometimes had very big rewards for it.
[10:39] Dave Charest: Who is the audience that you're trying to reach then for your business?
[10:41] Paul Sloane: The audience I'm trying to reach is event planners.
[10:44] Paul Sloane: Sales directors, marketing directors, CEOs who want a speaker for their next conference. That's my primary audience, and then also those people who might want to run a workshop for their team in order to get them thinking about things in new ways. And for my courses, it tends to be a massive audience of people who want to improve and move up the career ladder, and they're very, very often younger people in remote countries. My biggest market for my Udemy courses is in India.
[11:12] Paul Sloane: And then other major markets include Egypt and Indonesia and Pakistan and places, and the people who are quite prepared to sit down and go through a course and learn a skill if it will help them in their career, but they're not prepared to pay more than $10 for any courses, which is why Udemy is so successful because it
[11:31] Paul Sloane: Has an enormous reach and it it always reduces the price of the courses down in special sales and all of the users are waiting for those. So whatever price you put your course on at, it will end up selling for about $9.99 and you'll get a fraction of
[11:46] Paul Sloane: that.
[11:47] Dave Charest: So you, there's a little more than 2, but if we bucket them into two, right, there's the things you're doing from a speaking and consulting standpoint, and then there's the courses, right? So.
[11:55] Dave Charest: How do you approach kind of figuring out, like, how do you make a plan for how you're going to market these different things and how do you lean into those? Like, what's your process to go
[12:03] Dave Charest: through?
[12:03] Paul Sloane: Well, my process, I use a lot of video, and the video clips I've got of me speaking or some clips from the courses, I'll promote on YouTube and TikTok and other places. And on my LinkedIn profile, I've got video clips. So someone who's interested in seeing me speak can see me on, I've got on a TEDx Talk which is on YouTube.
[12:24] Paul Sloane: And that's had over 160,000 views, that's um it's called Are You Open minded.
[12:29] Paul Sloane: And that gets me corporate leads, and then my mail shots get me some corporate leads, mainly by reminding people that I've worked for several years ago that I'm still around and still doing things and available to help with their next event. And then the courses it's a different thing. That's a much more a mass marketing thing where I might reach them on Twitter or on Facebook and Facebook groups, or on LinkedIn groups. So I'm very active in all of those social media fields.
[12:57] Paul Sloane: But to be honest, it's quite a lot of work for sometimes quite a small yield.
[13:01] Dave Charest: Well, I was gonna ask you like, yeah, how do you kind of measure your success on those things? I mean, you mentioned earlier that social media is not as effective for you as it has been in the past, right? So I guess, are you, well, a couple of things are you setting goals for the business and for yourself and then
[13:17] Dave Charest: Yeah, how are you measuring your success there with those different activities that you're doing?
[13:21] Paul Sloane: Well, I do try to measure success. So all my constant contact email campaigns, obviously you see results in terms of the number of clicks and the number of opens, and you can track that over time, and also the number.
[13:33] Paul Sloane: People who aren't subscribed from the list is an indicator of how effective or relevant you are. And the fact of the matter is most people are getting too many emails, and then there's email fatigue out there and the social media fatigue as well. So it's a challenge, and as I say, you've got to find ways to improve and to do things smarter and better. One of the things I've tried recently is AI assisted videos.
[13:58] Paul Sloane: So you can put in a script into a tool like Pictory or Lumen 5, and it will generate video for you from a script. So text to video, and then you adjust that and you've changed a few things and you alter it, and then you can use that as a marketing tool, a marketing piece, which would go onto the various social media platforms Facebook, TikTok, X, and LinkedIn.
[14:24] Paul Sloane: So those sorts of things. So so I'm experimenting with that, but the whole market's moving much more towards video than it used to, and just plain old good fashioned text messages don't cut through as much as they used to, and that's a challenge for all marketers out there.
[14:39] Dave Charest: Yeah, for sure. What have you found in terms of like a particular social channel? Is one more effective than the others for you? Is there one that you lean into any more than another, perhaps?
[14:50] Paul Sloane: Well, I think LinkedIn is the best of business without doubt. Facebook, you can do some more marketing on Facebook, and then Facebook groups I post in, and that gets some coverage. There's a lot of
[15:00] Paul Sloane: Self-help groups on Facebook, IMAX it there, but LinkedIn is the primary tool. Twitter, I don't get much business from Twitter. It's just, it's just a constant deluge of stuff on Twitter. It's hard to really get much traction or notice there now. And so much of it, there's a lot of antagonistic stuff on there as well at the moment.
[15:19] Paul Sloane: As you probably noticed. So, LinkedIn remains the single most powerful social media for business connections, and I've got my own group on LinkedIn called Lateral Thinking in Business, and that gets me some traction, some connections. And then when I post on LinkedIn, I'll quite often get responses and leads from that, which might turn into a speaking engagement or a workshop.
[15:42] Dave Charest: Got it, got it. When you
[15:44] Dave Charest: Think about, you know, you mentioned all of these different things you do, you're creating these videos, you're sending your emails, you're doing these social posts and things like that.
[15:51] Dave Charest: What does that process look for you? Like, how are you approaching, like, getting stuff done when it comes to the marketing bits?
[15:57] Paul Sloane: Well, I'd like to tell you that I've got a thorough plan with things mapped out and a roadmap for the next 3 months with a schedule of activities and measurements, but I'm much more haphazard than that. To be honest, I treat it almost like a hobby, and I like being on social media. I like doing these things. I enjoy it.
[16:16] Paul Sloane: But I'm not as thorough or as scientific as maybe I should be, and if I was going to significantly improve my business, I should really hire an assistant who was much more thorough and workmanlike in terms of his or her approach.
[16:32] Dave Charest: So is it then just organic, how you're doing those things? I mean, is
[16:35] Paul Sloane: it? Yes. I try things, if they work, I do more of them. If they're not so effective, I do them less
[16:40] Paul Sloane: often.
[16:40] Dave Charest: How much time are you spending online then, do you think?
[16:43] Paul Sloane: I'm probably spending most of most days online when I'm not actually out working and out with a client. I'm typically online trying things and when I go on holiday, I take my laptop with me and I typically spend maybe a couple of hours every day online, even when I'm on holiday. So it's something I like doing. I was
[17:02] Dave Charest: gonna say it's a very relaxing holiday, right?
[17:04] Paul Sloane: It is for me, I find it.
[17:07] Dave Charest: So I want to shift this to think about Constant Context here a little bit and how that comes into play, but I'm curious, I mean, you've been with us, I think, since 2003, so I think you started your business in 2002, if I'm not mistaken. Have there been any notable results or like tangible things that you've seen as a result of using Constant Contact? Oh yes,
[17:24] Paul Sloane: so when I send out my mailer in the month, I try to make it fresh and I try to make it entertaining and maybe have something topical in there. But I'll point to some recent blog posts that I've done or videos that I've done or courses.
[17:36] Paul Sloane: And I'll often put something a little bit amusing in there as well to try and give people a reason to keep reading it coming back. Because if it's too dry and factual, people just, you know, unsubscribe and get fed up, I think. I do. I know that, so I get a lot of email newsletters. So you've got to make it interesting, and then every so often I'll get somebody say, oh, that was a very interesting. Paul, can you come and speak at our next event? Or can you do a workshop for my team?
[18:02] Paul Sloane: And so I get leads from that mailer, as I say, I mailed to just under 5000 people every month, and typically I'll get quite a good open rate and a good click through rate, and just a handful of responses from people following up with a query. And one of the things I've liked about Constant Contact is that if I send out an email with 4 or 5 different items in it,
[18:27] Paul Sloane: One might be about a book, one might be about a course, 1 may be about a blog. I can track who's clicked on those various links.
[18:34] Paul Sloane: And then, if, say, 30 people have clicked on a link relating to an online course, I can collect all of those names and put them into a new group, and that group then becomes the people who are interested in courses, and then I can mail special offers to that group, because I know that they've self-identified as being more interested in a particular facet, a particular problem. So you can target your special offers much more accurately. You don't want to be spending special offers to people who aren't interested in that.
[19:04] Paul Sloane: Lots of people aren't interested in the courses or the books, but some people are, and they're the ones who I want to be able to identify and mail to more accurately.
[19:13] Paul Sloane: So the fact that I can do that in constant contact is something I appreciate.
[19:17] Dave Charest: Yeah, I was gonna ask you, what have you found as a result of taking that action, right, of doing that and being more targeted with those offers? Well,
[19:24] Paul Sloane: I
[19:24] Paul Sloane: will make some sales of courses and books as a result of that, and that's something that I do on a regular basis. And, you know, I have special offers on Black Friday or special offers for Christmas or special offers for the holidays, and that goes to that subgroup which is self-identifies as being interested in courses or books or speaking.
[19:42] Dave Charest: How often are you sending emails, did you
[19:44] Dave Charest: mention?
[19:45] Paul Sloane: Probably once a month the full one and maybe another once or twice a month to other things.
[19:52] Paul Sloane: If I've got one specific message, I've got a new talk I've just generated on AI and lateral thinking, and I want to mail that to all the people who are speaker bureaus.
[20:02] Paul Sloane: So there's, I've got maybe 100 or 200 people on my mailing list who are one of the subgroups they're in is Speaker Bureau. They work for a Speaker bureau. So I, I'll be sending a mail to them in the next day or two, just reminding them that I'm available, reminding them about my showreel, reminding them of my TEDx talk, and saying, I've now got a new talk, which I think your clients will be interested in, on how to use artificial intelligence to boost lateral thinking and business innovation.
[20:28] Paul Sloane: So by doing, by being able to compartmentalize in the particular groups that I've got, I'm able to target better.
[20:36] Dave Charest: What
[20:36] Dave Charest: are the types of things that you do to build your list? How do you get those folks on there? Well,
[20:40] Paul Sloane: whenever somebody connects with me on LinkedIn, I'll ask if I can add them to the mailing list. So that goes down well, not on my website. I've got a capture for do you want to join the newsletter.
[20:50] Paul Sloane: But typically, whenever I meet someone new, I'll try to um co-opt them onto the list and encourage them with offers and so on. So I try to build the list, but I've reached a steady state now where the new people I get every month just about equate to the unsubscribes because people drop off for various reasons or they're undeliverables, the bounces. So people move, and they quit jobs, they die, you know, all these things happen. So inevitably, if you've got a big mailing list, it's.
[21:19] Paul Sloane: There's attrition every month.
[21:21] Dave Charest: Yeah,
[21:21] Dave Charest: yeah. What would be your number one tip for another business using Constant Contact?
[21:28] Paul Sloane: To make sure that you have something fresh to say every time, and something interesting and to add value for your recipients. It's not about you telling them how great your product is and how great your offers are. You have to offer them something that's of value to them in terms of a hint, a tip, a recipe, something that they're going to like.
[21:48] Paul Sloane: But having spent a lot of time developing the email list, that is a valuable asset. So the mailing list itself is the most valuable thing. And all of the people I've ever done business with over the last 20 years are all there if they haven't dropped out. So it's just a reminder, if I can get in front of them with something that looks interesting, looks intriguing, the headline is really important on the email because otherwise they'll skip past it.
[22:13] Paul Sloane: I typically resend it to the the non-openers after 3 or 4 days, and that always yields some additional response.
[22:22] Paul Sloane: So the key thing is to keep fresh and to keep the mailing list fresh and to add value for listeners and and the audience. You
[22:31] Dave Charest: know, in your field and as you're thinking about lateral thinking and growing businesses and helping them kind of have breakthroughs, what would be your best piece of advice for small businesses listening out there?
[22:41] Paul Sloane: The
[22:41] Paul Sloane: key thing I think for a small business is to focus on the customer and to be agile.
[22:47] Paul Sloane: So, a small business can't compete with the big messes in terms of marketing campaigns or funding or resources, but they can outmaneuver them in terms of agility. So you can do cheeky things, outrageous things, really flexible things. You can offer things which the big companies can't do. So that's a keep trying new things, I would say.
[23:08] Paul Sloane: And every month, try something new, and the things that don't work, stop, the things that do work, do more of, and the new things just keep trying them. So that's the main thing I would say for small businesses. Be innovative, because that's your key advantage. Well,
[23:24] Dave Charest: friend, let's recap some items from that discussion. Number one, embrace lateral thinking.
[23:30] Dave Charest: Instead of defaulting to the obvious solution, challenge yourself to find a completely different angle. Paul's example of Uber turning the taxi problem into an opportunity by connecting drivers and riders directly shows how unconventional thinking can create huge wins. Small businesses like you can apply this by rethinking how you reach customers, whether that's through new channels, creative partnerships, or fresh messaging. Number 2,
[24:00] Dave Charest: Leverage your agility. Paul emphasized that small businesses can't always match big companies on resources, but they can outmaneuver them by staying nimble. This means trying bold ideas, running quick experiments, and adjusting based on what works. For your business, that could be testing a new offer, trying video marketing or shifting your approach faster than a larger competitor could.
[24:28] Dave Charest: And number 3, make your marketing fresh and relevant. Paul finds success by keeping his emails interesting, topical, and valuable, not just promotional. He tracks what people click on in Constant Contact and creates subgroups to target those interests more effectively. You can do the same by segmenting your list on customer behavior and sending content that feels tailored and not generic.
[24:55] Dave Charest: So here's your action item for today. Try segmenting your email list in Constant Contact. Look at who's clicking on specific links in your last email, whether that's a product, an event, or a blog, and create a subgroup based on that interest. Then send a follow up email with a special offer or more content directly related to what they clicked. It's a simple step that makes your marketing feel more personal and increases the chances of conversion.
[25:26] Dave Charest: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Be a Marketer podcast. Please take a moment to leave us a review. Just go to ratethispodcast.com/BAM. Your honest feedback will help other small business marketers like yourself find the show. That's ratethispodcast.com/BAM. Well, friend, I hope you enjoy the rest of your day and continued success to you and your business.