Ep. 94: Turning Feral with Zachary Hanson

Like many people, Zachary Hanson was tired of the day to day grind.  Feeling disillusioned with his life trajectory as an artificial intelligence expert, and yearning for a deeper connection with the natural environment Zach dove head first into simplifying his life.  Moving to a remote town in Idaho, population 35, Zach learned to hunt, trap and has written the book Turning Feral which documents his journey.  

  If you have ever fantasized what it would be like to live a more self reliant life in harmony with nature, tune in to this podcast with the extremely engaging and refreshingly open Zach Hanson.    Buy Turning Feral: https://geni.us/TurningFeral Learn more about The Outfitter Guide: https://theoutfitter.guide  

New book The Bone Scraper: amzn.to/3GHZlh3 

______

Silvercore Club - https://bit.ly/2RiREb4
Online Training - https://bit.ly/3nJKx7U
Other Training & Services - https://bit.ly/3vw6kSU
Merchandise - https://bit.ly/3ecyvk9
Blog Page - https://bit.ly/3nEHs8W

Host Instagram - @Bader.Trav https://www.instagram.com/bader.trav
Silvercore Instagram - @SilvercoreOutdoors https://www.instagram.com/silvercoreoutdoors

____

What is The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader?

The Silvercore Podcast explores the mindset and skills that build capable people. Host Travis Bader speaks with hunters, adventurers, soldiers, athletes, craftsmen, and founders about competence, integrity, and the pursuit of mastery, in the wild and in daily life. Hit follow and step into conversations that sharpen your edge.

Kind: captions
Language: en-GB

Travis Bader: I'm Travis Bader,
and this is the Silvercore Podcast.

Silvercore has been providing its
members with the skills and knowledge

necessary to be confident and proficient
in the outdoors for over 20 years, and

we make it easier for people to deepen
their connection to the natural world.

If you enjoy the positive and educational
content we provide, please let others

know by sharing, commenting and
following so that you can join in on

everything that Silvercore stands for.

If you'd like to learn more
about becoming a member of the

Silvercore Club and community,
visit our website at Silvercore.ca

an expert in the field of
artificial intelligence.

Today's guest helped architect such
things as infinite sprawling, like

functionality, add optimization and
other attention diverting AI features,

feeling something was deeply missing from
his life as city dweller uprooted his

life to live in the mountains, to learn
to hunt and trap, and has written the

book, turning Ferrell, which documents
his journey, broadcasting remotely from

the base of the saute Youth Mountains
in the small town of Atlanta, Idaho.

Population 35.

Welcome to the Silvercore
podcast, Zach Hansen.

Zach Hanson: Wow.

Thank you, Travis.

That was quite the introduction, but, uh,
hearing you, uh, read off those things

that I've been a part of it, I can't help
but feel a little guilty as I think about

people scrolling through their phones
and stuck in, uh, social media loopholes,

,
Travis Bader: you know, I remember
reading a book a long time ago, I think

it was called, um, Addictive habits.

I think that's what the book was called.

Uh, or programming addiction,
something along those lines,

but addictive traits anyways.

Oh, the psychology of building like
infinite scrolling and like functionally

there's a lot that goes into keeping
people hooked on their electronic devices

and, uh, basically indoors and uh, and
numb looking for that next dopamine hit.

Zach Hanson: Yep, that's exactly it.

It's one of those weird things where that
psychology and technology merge, uh, in

a non-positive way, uh, as we found out
over the years, uh mm-hmm . But it's

interesting for me cuz I'm a new father.

I have two young kids, one's
two, the other's four months.

You know, just seeing how easily my
two-year-old daughter can interact with

an iPhone or an iPad is mind blowing
to me and it's scary at the same time

and makes me feel tick of regret.

Travis Bader: Well, I, you know, you're
an expert in the field of artificial

intelligence and I think about how, like
you say, how easy it is for a youngster

to be able to handle an iPhone or an iPad.

Um, really, like if you look at us as
humans, and let's say we had a bunch

of dogs that we had to take care of,
we could pretty easily whip him into

shape, have 'em trained up and you know,
do doing what we want to do because.

we're smarter than dogs.

Artificial intelligence,
that's an interesting thing.

I mean, I'm looking at, uh, open
AI chat, G p t, all of this stuff.

Mm-hmm.

, and I'm thinking of the mass amount
of information that's out there

and the idea that people think they
have unique thought, but really how

much of what we do is, is unique.

How much of it is just us
running an autopilot based on

things that we've kinda learned?

I gotta, I gotta wonder, as cool as this
whole artificial intelligence thing is

that we're on the sort of the cusp of,
it's also pretty scary in some ways too.

I don't know.

What, what's your take on this whole AI
thing from a person with a background?

Zach Hanson: Uh, there's a reason
I live at the end of an 80 mile

dirt road in a town of 35 people.

, , you know, in, in reality, right?

It, it's not from a fear-mongering
standpoint, like, you know, the

robots are gonna take over the world,
but, you know, it's so easy to be

manipulated by technology and, you
know, Being so entrenched in it

myself, I wanted to personally get
away and, you know, introduce as much

non-technical aspects into my everyday
life as I possibly could, because

there's no way you get away from it.

Mm-hmm.

, I mean, you and I are mm-hmm.

able to have this conversation
because of really cool technology.

You know, Elon Musk has some low orbit
satellites that are beaming signals up and

down so that you and I can talk right now.

Sure.

And that's pretty, pretty
freaking cool in my opinion.

Yeah.

But you know, when you get through
the social aspects, that's where

like, I wanted buffers and I chose
to live where we're living now.

So, you know, when I am done with work,
when my laptop is off, when my cell

phone's not in my hand, or I go two feet
out of my driveway, I'm disconnected.

Right.

And, uh, yep.

I, I loved your metaphor at the beginning
though, as far as the dog training.

Mm.

Um, the only thing that I would
disagree with you there, Travis, Is,

as you read my book, I don't know if
that's a great reference because there

are so many canines, at least wild
ones that are way smarter than me,

So

Travis Bader: yeah, no, I,
that was a recurring theme

as I read through the book.

I love the humility, I love
the honesty in your book.

Um, yeah, I was gonna say
monkeys, I don't know.

Dogs essentially just a mass aggregate of
information out there that when, when you

just, uh, when you, when you take all of
that, it's pretty easy to spot patterns,

particularly if for a program to do it.

Like I was using the artificial
intelligence, I'd upload whole

books and I'd say, explain it
to me like I'm five years old.

And then for fun, oh, make it into a poem,
turn it into a haiku, and it would do it.

Uh, the amount that you can upload
now, I think as of a week or two ago

has been limited, but, um, I'm sure
they'll charge for that feature.

Yeah.

But you know, another one, like, I
wrote a article before and I thought,

you know, just for fun, I'll give it.

A one sentence parameter on this,
uh, was about five or six pages typed

article that I put together, write an
article on, and I put it out there.

And if it didn't come pretty
close to what I spent a few days

writing within a couple of seconds.

I mean, it's amazing what it
can do and I thought I had all

this unique thought in there.

Zach Hanson: Yeah, I mean, I think that's
what's interesting is where ai, especially

when you're talking about chat, G p T
and um, other things that are trained

on large corpuses of data, um, you know,
data that is an aggregate of many people

who are not as unique as we think we are.

We all think we're super
unique, you know, individuals.

Sure.

But when you look at it in aggregate,
we're not really, so when you look at the

ingestion of articles, the ingestion of
books, and you do that across a wide array

of individuals, when you put a prompt in,
you're gonna get something back that's

pretty close to you, but, You know, to put
a little feather of optimism here, like

the amount of data it would take to have
1000% uniqueness in, you know, writing

and art would be nearly impossible.

There's always gonna be this
percentage and ability for humans

to, you know, not necessarily
outperform because that's defined

by the metrics you're measuring it.

But from a uniqueness perspective,
there's optimism there.

I mean, you're gonna get really close and
it's gonna be fuzzy lines where you're

like, was that like a machine that,
you know, wrote that or painted that?

but you know, humans are humans
and we do some pretty unique shit.

So I, I think we're always gonna
have the edge there slightly.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

I guess the only scary thing about that
whole AI is what you mentioned earlier,

and that's the ability to manipulate.

And we've seen manipulation at large
scale, particularly over the last few

years, whether for good or for bad or
best intenses or whatever it might be.

But you take the job of manipulation
and you look at that mass aggregate

and you take a look at, uh, what would
be the most effective way to do so,

it'll spit back solutions in seconds.

What would usually take experts a fair
bit of time to come up with a plan.

So that's, uh, that's the scary thing.

Zach Hanson: Yeah.

Well, like I said, you know, you get
big mass groups of people, you know,

with proctored information, you.

Good or bad, you're gonna have fallout.

And again, that's maybe why I live in a
town at the end of a road that happened

to be in the sixties, a really popular
place for nuclear bug out, uh, individuals

because of the way the trade winds blow.

So, you know, we've got some caves,
we've got all sort of stuff, natural

water, hot springs, so, you know,
come out to the Atlanta, Idaho when,

uh, the AI robots take over and we
can all hide out and fight back.

.
Travis Bader: Well, you're doing
something that a lot of people

fantasize about, a lot of people
dream about, but not many people

have the courage to actually actuate.

and you know, particularly since
Covid hit the idea of being more

self-sufficient, self-reliant, uh,
uh, where does my food come from?

How, how can I survive
if things go sideways?

Um, you started that prior to
Covid when the world really

started becoming awake to that.

Uh, can you tell me a little bit about
what life was like prior to wanting to

hunt and trap and move out in the bush
and kind of what drove you to this?

Zach Hanson: Yeah.

There's a lot of factors, right?

Um, you know, first and foremost, you
know, the life that I was living with my

ex-wife at the time was, was very nice.

It was very Kush.

Mm-hmm.

, right?

You know, I was working in
artificial intelligence.

My ex-wife was an F b I special agent, so
we were, you know, living in Louisiana.

not my, uh, favorite state in the
world, but you know, it was good.

We had a nice big house.

We had the cars, we had dogs,
we went on vacations every year.

You know, we were really doing,
and I mentioned in the book,

keeping up with the Jones's, right?

It's like, you know, what was
the American dream for us?

You know, white picket fence,
big house, all of that.

Um, and I felt hollow, just to be frank.

Like I didn't know what the feeling was.

It's not like I woke up in a
depression, but I just constantly

felt like there was something missing.

And you know, my ex-wife was an athlete.

I was an athlete.

We both did, you know,
really high level juujitsu.

She was a jujitsu world champion.

And so we were traveling for competition,
but we, and I did some ultra running,

but I was always focused on fitness.

And part of fitness is nutrition.

You know, I'd been a wrestler all through
high school, college, the whole lot.

So it was something that was just
a big part of our lives, especially

since we didn't have kids.

It was, you know, wake up, train, work,
repeat, and you know, that brought

some joy, you know, brought community
and camaraderie and you know, our gym.

But as we kind of got down that
path more and more of like,

okay, what can we optimize?

What can we optimize?

You know, you start looking at the foods
you eat, you know, we were counting

our macros, doing all this stuff that
makes you miserable, in my opinion.

Hindsight being what it is, . Um, you
know, and the meats we were consuming

were okay, but to get like decent
quality, we were having to go to real

high-end grass-fed beef, grass-fed bison.

And that led us down the path of
like, okay, well what about wild game?

And this was also the same time
that I think, you know, and my

wife, as I mentioned in the book,
was very much into social media.

Even I was to a degree with Instagram.

So, you know, you followed the
Joe Rogans, the campaigns and

they're like, yeah, I eat elk meat.

And like, well, what, what is that?

Mm-hmm.

. And that really started the, yeah, I
guess the snowball for me it was just

a, a curiosity and I happened to have.

, you know, in-laws.

My wife's family were hunters.

They're from Middle Tennessee and Right.

You know, we started talking about it at
family get togethers and my, you know,

we were talking about like, we should
really get in, you know, we were using all

the really, you know, cringey language,
like we should harvest our own meat and,

you know, all this really dumb shit.

And my father-in-law just, you know,
good old boy looks at me, he's like,

you know, I've got a freezer full
of, you know, deer from like the past

six years that I go get every year.

And you're not harvesting shit.

Yeah, shooting it.

And it's right there, . Um, so,
you know, immediately brought

down a peg, but it's like, oh.

So he gave us some ground venison
and, you know, we tried, if we were

eating it, delicious food, you know,
did we see like a performance gain

from switching from, you know, grass
fed beef to, you know, wild game?

I don't know.

Uh, probably not, but it was good.

It was a mental thing.

and that prompted me to buy a bow.

You know, like, I don't know why, uh,
I had no interest in rifle hunting at

the time, so got a hand me down bow
and just kind of started the journey.

Yeah.

Travis Bader: You started hard.

I mean, you're gonna start with the bow
and say, oh, I, I want to be a hunter.

Okay, let's get a bow.

I've seen people on social media do this.

I've seen others.

Looks easy enough.

But I mean, from reading your
book, , the uh, uh, maybe not as

easy as, uh, as the social media
influencers might make it sound.

So tell me about that journey.

You got your bow, you got a buddy
who's, he said, let's go practice

with this and let's, let's be hunters.

What were people laughing at?

Atk?

Zach Hanson: Uh, my ex-wife included.

Yeah.

It was one of those things.

Cause.

I grew up in South Carolina, rural
area, but you know, I was surrounded

by people who would hunt, but
I never went hunting, you know?

So I, at this time, I think
I was like 28, 29 years old.

So, you know, getting up close to
my thirties and I never hunted.

All of a sudden I'm like, I want to
hunt and I wanna hunt with a bow and

I'm gonna get a hand-me-down bow from
a buddy who's a little shorter than

me and I'm just gonna make it work.

Um, so in the book I chronicle like
some of the setting up a range and

hucking arrows into my neighbors,
you know, roofs, things like that.

All this stuff you don't wanna be honest
about, but happened, you know, couldn't

even pull my bow back, dry, fired it
the whole lot and, you know, learned

the hard way, but, you know, for all
the bad that comes outta social media.

Like seeing those influencers was a, you
know, to be cheesy, an influence on me.

It gave me some confidence.

Like, Hey, this person can do it.

I can figure it out.

Um, I'm hardheaded enough to, and
there's plenty of YouTube videos.

And going back to technology, the,
one of the amazing things is just the

readily available amount of information,
whether that's YouTube, whether that's,

you know, a social media platform.

Like if you do wanna learn,
there's available resources

that are easy to consume.

Cuz when I grew up, my
granddad always pushed me.

He's like, you wanna learn
something, read a book.

And that's what I was raised on.

Mm-hmm.

. So I love it.

And that's one of the reasons I
like to write books, but you know,

now you don't have to even do that.

You can go and watch a two minute video
on how to pull a bow back and then just

hope that you, you know, figure it out.

And that's what I did.

.
Travis Bader: Well, you know,
you talk about the mass amount of

information that's out there, free.

YouTube's obviously a big one, and I think
that's the whole reason why we have an

air brackets for those who aren't watching
and they're listening influencers.

And some people hate the name, some
people love the name, but essentially

there's so much information out there
that these people become information

concierges and you say, well, I like that
person, or, I like what they're doing.

Um, maybe that'll shortcut me from
having to sift through everything

that's out there and I'll just,
I'll just follow their steps.

A, B, C, and, and that's why I
think the, uh, the whole influencer

trend kind of came about.

And you're right.

Is it good?

Is it bad?

I don't know.

Depends on what you're looking at.

It depends on how you want to use
it, but clearly, uh, it turned out

for the best for you if it got you
outside and it, and it got you hunting.

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

So.

When you first started out, I know
you write in the book, you figured,

okay, I, I learned how to do this.

I'm gonna be out and, uh,
I'll get myself a deer.

I just gotta sit up in
a tree, stand a deer.

I'll walk by and I'll take this thing.

Maybe I gotta wait a little
bit, but it's gonna happen.

That wasn't quite the story, was it?

Zach Hanson: Nope.

It, it, it went probably, and one
of the things that I hope, and I've

gotten feedback on the book is,
you know, people who've even hunted

their whole lives kind of appreciate,
you know, these overlooked aspects.

Like, uh, I mentioned as I thought
about pig hunting and deer hunting

for the first time, you know, I had
every scenario painted in my head.

By this time, I'd shot
thousands of arrows.

I could do it with confidence,
never shot in an animal.

You know, we got our ex-wives,
f b i agents to heckle us.

Why we shot to kind of, you know,
we knew we were gonna get buck

fever, so we wanted to do that.

And, and to this day, I've never
had buck fever, I think thanks

to that section or session.

So you, that was a, you know, good
investment on our part, but you know, , I

had every potential outcome mapped out
in my head except for the one that was

most likely to happen, which was nothing.

And that's what I talk about the book.

Mm-hmm.

. So I would sit for like two days in this
tree where a deer I was told would walk

by, you know, I'd be able to put my pin
on his vitals and, you know, that's it.

That's, that's the story.

But all I saw were squirrels, so, right.

You know, you, you're never prepared fully
for what the experience is gonna be like.

And honestly, like a lot of hunting
is really boring, you know, it's a lot

of time for self-reflection and, you
know, battling with your own ego and

realizing that you're not really hot shit.

And, you know, nature really
owned you at all times of the day.

So

Travis Bader: can you talk about battling
with your ego when you're out there?

Because I know when I'm out hunting
or I'm in the mountains, or I'm hiking

and I'm out in the water, surfing,
whatever it is, I'm, I'm isolated.

I'm out there inevitably.

Yep.

The brain starts going and
things start coming up.

You're having fights are, are
reoccurring for me anyways.

And it takes a few days for the
brain to kind of shut off and to

kind of move to a more positive area.

What's it like for you, and when you
say battling the ego, what do you mean?

Zach Hanson: Well, I have been very
fortunate, Travis, in that I have, I

grew up in combat sports where your
ego gets decimated, um, constantly.

And I'll give a poignant example, and
this might make a few people laugh.

So my, uh, my first year of high
school I was on the wrestling team,

um, never wrestled before, just got a
whim I wanted to wrestle and started

doing it was not terrible, but I
was on like the junior team, right?

So not the varsity team.

We go to our first match against our
rival school who was like, you know,

state champions, blah, blah, blah.

Well, the 135 pound wrestler on
the varsity team got sick that day.

So, okay.

This is the first time that both of
my parents, my sister girlfriend,

are coming to watch me do jv.

But I get bumped up to varsity
because this guy is sick.

The opponent I'm going against
is a two-time state champion.

So my first real wrestling
experience, I go out and I go

to the little board to sign in.

My parents, everybody's there watching.

They're like, oh, it's Zack.

I have this ridiculous headgear.

Cause I wasn't cool yet.

I didn't know all the cool
gear, so I looked like a dork

I sign it at the table, Travis.

I turn around to go into the mat
to go actually wrestle this guy

who's inevitably gonna beat my ass.

Trip over the mat, land on my face.

Bust my nose.

I get blood time before the match
starts , I get a tampon shoved out

my nose, , and then in a singlet in
a cold gym, I get like mercy killed

by this guy in like 20 seconds.

So, you know.

Oh man.

Travis Bader: With all your family

Zach Hanson: and friends watching.

Exactly.

You know, so that was like my first
experience was like really just crushing

your ego and realizing it doesn't exist.

But what I meant with the conversation
about battling your ego, for me,

I've always had comparison issues.

I think a lot of people do influencers
and social media propagated that at

the beginning of my hunting journey.

So like seeing the campaign, seeing
the Joe Rogan, seeing the, you

know, John Dudleys of the world out
there just killing it, you know?

You know, post is about this great
kill, you know, I had built up in myself

like, I should be able to do that.

Like that is the
experience I'm gonna have.

That is what hunting is like.

Mm-hmm.

. And so when I was out there and I
wasn't experiencing those things,

I wasn't having those successes.

I was running into things that maybe
they didn't talk about or, you know,

not by them intentionally leaving
it out, but they've been doing it

for so long, you know, you kind
of forget the steps along the way.

Mm-hmm.

, that was causing me to have
these battles with my ego.

Like, what is wrong with me?

Like, why am I not being able to
have these experiences like these

guys are, and that's the ego battle
I'd have, like sitting in a tree

stand, like, what am I doing wrong?

Like, you know, I should be able
to have the same thing they are.

And the answer is no.

I would put my ego
aside, you know, I'm new.

I, I don't know what I'm doing.

I, I am on my own journey and running
my own race, but I let some of those

things sneak in and that's what.

You know, that's my ego trap personally,
and I get caught in that sometimes,

and I have to check my cell phone.

It,

Travis Bader: well, I guess the
algorithm doesn't really support

people sitting in a tree stand freezing
cold and, uh, going home and yeah,

posting that over and over again.

I mean, that's, they, so it can build an
unreal expectation for new hunters out

there based on what people are posting.

You know, oftentimes we're seen with some
of these influencers, um, it's not always

their animal that they're standing beside,
and they might not say it's their animal,

but they're standing beside an animal.

And people will look at this and
be like, how is this person always

going out and always successful?

And maybe they're not taking to
account the fact that they'll hunt

in groups and one person in a group
of however many was successful and

everyone had their picture taken there.

So it's, um, how, how would you,
how would you describe hunting with

your experience now to somebody
who's looking to get into it?

Zach Hanson: Yeah.

And I think that's kind of part of,
you know, was my mission with this

book because as I talk to people,
you know, just like anybody else,

like I feel like , you know, you
start CrossFit or you meet somebody

who just started CrossFit, you know,
they're never gonna shut the fuck up.

It's CrossFit this,
CrossFit that, you know.

And same with like
juujitsu, same with hunting.

And I'm not opposed to that.

So when I first started hunting and I
took my first animal, everybody within a

300 foot radius of me at any time of the
day, was hearing about hunting and the

benefits and how you're gonna be healthier
and connect with nature and all that shit.

Um, but to answer that question about
like, what I would say to people is

I have been getting a lot of feedback
that there are people out there like

me who are adult onset hunters or.

people who are curious about learning
to hunt as an adult, but the barriers of

entry, including like influencers who are
posting these, you know, trophy shots.

Again, I'm not opposed to that,
but you know, these kind of Sure.

Success measures.

You know, I think there's a little bit
of an intimidation factor and what I

wanted to do was like, it's right to be
intimidated because it is an intimidating

thing, but to let people know that
unless you're going out with tons of

guides and paying top dollar, which
is also okay, and I did some of that

too, to beat down the learning curve.

Mm-hmm.

, you're gonna fail, you're gonna
be met with morally compromising

decisions to make that you might not
have expected getting into hunting.

Mm-hmm.

, you're gonna have to get
legitimately elbow deep in an animal

at some point or another, and.

Learn as you go and maybe waste meat,
even though, you know, most people getting

in are like the, you know, wanton waste.

Like, I want to harvest everything
of the animal, which is great, and I

do that too, but along the way you're
gonna mess up and you're gonna, you

know, disrespect an animal in your own
eyes if that's the mentality you have.

And I want people to know that
you have to go through that.

You know, it is part of the journey
is that you're gonna have to learn and

push your boundaries, you know, morally,
physically, in a lot of instances, and

not to be afraid of that and recognize
that it's not going to necessarily

match probably what got you interested,
which are the influencers or the

people who are, you know, celebrity
hunters and things of that nature.

Travis Bader: Well, when I'm looking at
some of the pictures that you have in

the book there, I see, uh, vortex optics,
um, Bino pouch, uh, bench made knife, uh,

and I'm seeing a little bit of a trend.

I think I saw some first light
gear in there, and it looks like

some of your purchasing decisions
may have been influenced by a

very popular, uh, Netflix show.

Mer.

Would that be a fair

Zach Hanson: assessment?

Yeah, of course it is.

I mean, it's, uh, it's part and parcel
and I'm sure like they have doubled down

and they're making a great killing on
people who are getting curious about it.

But yeah, I mean, that is mm-hmm.

purchasing power.

So one of the things I do in my role now
is ad monetization algorithms, right?

So, okay.

Of course, you know, you're paying for
ad space, you're paying for eyeballs of

people who have similar interests as you.

And of course, I was fed from
the beginning of my journey,

you know, Steve Ronella.

Vortex stuff.

I mean, I've got a vortex optic up
there, you know, I've got freaking

knock on releases the whole lot.

Yeah.

So it, yeah.

Yeah.

It's, it goes with the territory
and I'm not ashamed of that, you

know, and you get dogs for it too.

Like, I wear Sitka, right.

I started hunting at a time where
I was able to afford, you know,

nice camo and, you know, all the
people that I followed were Sitka.

I was like, well, monkey c monkey
do, um, I'm gonna buy this.

So of course you get raed
by people along the way.

But yeah, it's,

Travis Bader: I'm not ashamed.

It's part parcel.

You know, , uh, talking about, uh, guides.

Now, I've never hunted with a guide.

I'm fortunate enough to have a Ballard,
good friend of mine, who's, uh,

quite accomplished in hunting that
I can, uh, typically lean on for,

uh, for advice and, uh, assistance.

Uh, but going the guide route is I
think a fantastic way to shortcut

a, uh, the learning experience.

And when you look at, like, for example,
on Sitka advertising, uh, there's quite

often acknowledgements to the guides who
have taken their pro hunters out hunting.

So e even the pros are out there
doing that if they want to be getting

that trophy animal or have a success
rate, that's gonna be something they

can blog about or Instagram about.

But you went out with in your book with
some guides, and I had a very couple

of humbling experiences, and if you are
willing to talk about that outside of the

book here, I'd love to chat about that.

.
Zach Hanson: Yeah.

So, uh, you know, guides are not
something that I had on my agenda, right?

Like for me when I started,
like it was my in-laws who quote

guided me out of the gate, right?

So these are the guys in touching back
on the Sitka and the stuff I had, like

when I started hunting and the first
time I went deer hunting on my in-laws,

uh, hunting lease, you know, it got
muted chuckles because my buddy and

I showed up in brand new sit ca camo.

Meanwhile, you know, we've never killed an
animal and my father-in-law who's probably

killed more deer than I ever will in my
life, you know, sitting there in Walmart,

camo like, okay, Walmart camo and jeans.

He's like, I don't get it, but you
know, you guys do you spend the

money on what you wanna spend your
money on ? Um, but he was in, for all

intents and purposes, my first guide.

So I can't say that I never did
guided hunting, and I feel like

most people do unless you go the
full DIY solo route and good on you.

But when I moved out to Idaho and,
you know, little foreshadowing for

people, I've talked about my ex-wife,
um, a little bit after my journey,

we ended up getting a divorce.

Pretty amicable, but I was left
at this crossroads where I was

like, what do I want to do?

Where can I go?

We, I had no children.

The, the opportunities were endless.

And I had visited Idaho and
I knew I wanted to hunt elk,

I wanted to hunt antelope.

I wanted to learn to trap.

So I was like, well, you know, this
unexpected event happened in my life, so

I'm just gonna pack up my car and drive
to Idaho, which is exactly what I did.

Um, mm-hmm.

got out there, found a place in
the, in the mountains way, way back,

you know, our place opens up to
3000 acres of national forest land.

And I was like, how am I
gonna learn to hunt elk?

You know, I, I've only sat in a
tree, stand for some pigs and deer.

I can't bugle, I can now pretty
good too, if I might add.

Yeah.

But I couldn't bugle, I, I, I
didn't know how to do anything

outside of hiking and that.

I sucked at that pretty good
when I got up to Elevation.

It turns out, um, and, you know, I
decided, you know, I had the means

that I wanted to go with a guide to
take me on my first archery Alcon.

So I, yeah.

Hmm.

So also another foreshadowing
that I have a new company that

is launching at the Western Hunt
Expo called the outfitter.guide.

Um, but it's kind of based on my own
personal experience, which was I went

to Google, I got dumped in the lap of
a bunch of, you know, top of the funnel

companies like book your hunt.com, all
of which do a great job where you can

pick like an animal species, state,
whatever, and they'll give you a list

of guides, but that's where they cut.

And with that I found a
guide in Stanley, Idaho.

He's like, yep, I've got a
one-on-one archery opening in, you

know, eight months for September.

You know, send me half of the deposit
or send me half of the whole price

of the hunt, which was expensive.

You know, it's close to
six grand for a seven day.

Yeah.

You know, horseback in wall, tent hunt.

Mm-hmm.

to my PO box in a state, three
states away in Arizona and

I'll see you in eight months.

. So.

Right.

You know, I thought I was getting scammed.

I'm like, well, fuck it.

Like, let's, let's do this.

So I sent the check.

Yeah.

It cleared.

And for those eight months I was
just kind of left scratching my head.

Like, I'd email occasionally and he'd
be like, I'm sorry, I'm on my combine.

Fuck off.

Um, you know, I want to be
doing these other things.

Typical, important.

Yeah.

Typical guide.

Mm-hmm.

. Right.

They wanna be doing other stuff.

customer management.

Right.

Meanwhile, I was talking to my now
wife and I'm like, man, I don't

even know if I'm gonna get fed.

And so when the time of the hunt came
around eight months later, I was praying

that the 10 cliff bars she packed me, you
know, would last me the seven days if I

didn't get food . But, you know, I ended
up going out there, you know, my asses

sore from riding a horse for the first
time in 10 years into the back country.

And that experience with a guide
just beat down that learning curve.

Like I was like that annoying kid.

I'm sure they hated me.

I was like, why did we do this?

Why did we stop here, , what does
that, you know, all of that stuff.

And ultimately didn't harvest
an animal the first year.

You know, I missed twice.

So go figure.

And, uh, you know, it is what it
is and you're devastated and you

go through those normal emotions,
but it helped, so, you know.

Mm.

That experience with guiding.

Speed down that learning curve so sharply
and I did it again the next year, um,

with the same guy went to a slightly
different area, um, but same story, you

know, didn't end up harvesting an animal,
you know, weather and everything else.

And then this past year I went
and did my own d i y up in West

Yellowstone, you know, was calling
elk in myself, doing the whole lot.

So, you know, it was, you know, from
start to finish on my elk hunting

journey with archery, you know,
two years with a guide to now doing

two years d i y with some success.

It's, it was worth

Travis Bader: it, right?

Yeah.

The, the range of emotions that
go through on a miss, I mean, at

least was a clean mess, right?

Yeah.

But those reigns of emotions
that go through are.

, uh, or something to behold.

And there's a mental management
process that a person has to work

through in order to get themselves up.

And there's a feeling of possible
humiliation of what are other

people gonna think of me?

And, uh, man, I spent all of this money
and the pressure is on and I totally

jammed and all, all of these other
feelings, I'm sure , that you must

have been going through your head.

H how did you deal with that?

Zach Hanson: Yeah.

Well, it's funny you say that.

Like, you know, I didn't have an
Instagram, you know, I wasn't like

active on social media, so I didn't
have that added pressure to be like,

Hey guys, I'm going on this guided
hunt, you know, look at me, do this.

Oh, I miss.

So I, I, I feel for people who
are very active there or like

put it out to the universe like
they're going to do this thing.

But you know, even in my close bubble,
you know, that I did put it out there.

So my family's like, what?

You're spending what
to go where to do what?

Mm.

And then I come back, you know,
they, people who don't hunt.

, you know, a lot of times have
this mentality like, oh, you just

go out and you shoot an animal.

You know that it is not this big
involved thing that takes patience,

skill, and, you know, name all the
other adjectives you want to mm-hmm.

and you know that the likelihood
of, you know, missing an animal

is way higher than success.

Like, I think the area we were in for
archery had like a 13% success rate.

You know, so you're paying money, uh,
to learn more than you're paying money

to successfully harvest an animal.

That was my viewpoint, but other
people didn't see that way.

So I did have those emotions
after missing that elk of.

You know, embarrassment, right?

Yeah, sure.

I dreaded going home to my, you know,
now wife to be like, oh, hey honey,

you know all that money we spent, uh,
and I promise you I was gonna make

you this beautiful elk steak dinner.

Yeah.

That's not gonna happen.

Um, you know, my family, the ones who
were already thinking I was, you know,

loony for spending that amount of money,
they're like, well, you're still loony.

You still have some screws loose.

That's confirmed . And you know, of course
if you have a good friend group, which I

do have a very close, tight knit group of
friends, some who want, some who don't,

I'm still getting ribbed to this day.

So, you know, it is,

Travis Bader: well, that's what

Zach Hanson: friends do, right?

Yeah.

Well, you know, it's funny, I'm in a
group chat with some buddies, um, who

don't necessarily hunt, but you know,
it goes without fail like once a week.

It's like, oh, Zach, are
you out observing elk again?

Or, you know, something to that effect.

so lives to this day.

But, you know, it helps like that kind of
humor that, you know, self depreciation.

And for me it was coming to terms with.

It is a lifelong pursuit.

And yes, I'm making up for lost time
because I didn't start as a young kid,

but it's a journey and it's not one after
you have a few experiences that you can

expect to just master, like it is time
out in the woods, it's, you know, those

missed shots, that morality bending.

I talked about like when I got
into trapping, like when you get

into situations where you have
to make tough decisions, those

don't come from a book or YouTube.

It comes from time in the field.

And yes, there are shortcuts, guides,
you know, mentors, things like that.

But ultimately it's being out there and
that's what I had to come to terms with

and coach myself up on to get over those,
you know, really emotional misses and,

you know, failures and disappointments.

Travis Bader: You know, I guess,
and you call it a failure.

Well, a few things you brought up.

When you talk with the social media
people and the pressure that they must

feel advertising to go on a hunt, I
think a lot of them just advertise

afterwards if they're successful.

And they'll just post a little bit
after, Hey, going on this hunt and

here's this, and hey, great success.

And if it, but, um, then, you know,
people say, oh, my, my hunt was a failure.

Well, how come?

Well, I didn't get an animal.

Well, maybe from somebody starting
out into hunting, and that's looked

at the ultimate result there.

I wouldn't say that that's,
that's a failure Personally.

How, how would you define
success for yourself on a hunt?

Zach Hanson: Yeah.

I mean, you're a hundred percent
right and you know, all of those

hunts, let me put it this way.

Every hunt I've been on, which a
lot of them have been failures.

Failures in the sense of
not harvesting an animal.

Um, sure.

But every single one of them, I have
learned an absurd amount, either about

myself, about the animal, or about what
not to do, , which that I can apply

for the next hunt on, you know, what
to try not to replicate, um mm-hmm.

So, you know, failure,

failure might not be the right
word because I did learn, I just

failed in harvesting an animal.

Um, right.

Which, you know, is ultimately the goal.

But I don't sit and beat myself
up saying, Hey, Zach, you failed.

You suck, blah, blah, blah.

But I did fail at harvesting an animal,
and I'm pretty damn good at that

Uh, so I'm just trying to get
used to saying those words.

.
Travis Bader: Well, one piece that I'm
really curious about be, and I think

a lot of other people would be, is
that little bit of a piece in between

city life and living out in the woods.

And I, you've discussed there's a
little, perhaps some of the impetus

was, um, the life-changing event of the
separation from your, from your ex-wife.

And, but it seems like to me anyways, when
I read through the book that that wasn't

the piece that pushed you to want to go
out and write a book and live in the bush.

It seems like there's something that was
always kind of sitting in the back of

your head, maybe dormant for a while,
and something happened in you that

made you decide to jump in head first.

And I think a lot of people are
fearful of doing what you've,

what you've successfully done.

So I'm curious about
that little piece there.

.
Zach Hanson: Yeah.

It, it is funny.

We, so when I wrote this book, I
worked with, uh, a company called

Scribe Media down in Austin.

Uh, it was co-founded by Tucker Max.

I don't know if you know who he is.

He's a New York Times bestselling author.

He wrote the books, I hope
they serve beer in hell.

Kind of like the misogynistic, uh, yeah.

Stories of his time in law school.

He's changed a lot, but he's very
much on the sustainability track now.

He has a farm, kids, you know, harvesting
his own bison and, you know, gr like

raising bees, all sorts of stuff.

But he is an amazing writer.

So when I went down and was working
with them, kind of on the synopsis of

the book, talking about the intros,
you know, part of the exercise,

like, who are you writing this for?

You know, what, what is the persona of
the person that you're writing it for?

And when it gets down to it,
I wrote out this persona and

I realized that when I wrote.

that it was me, which
makes total sense, right?

It was me.

Yep.

You know, five, six years ago.

But it was like for that middle management
man or woman, right, who is working

a corporate job droning away and they
start to daydream occasionally and

obviously bolster through the pandemic
about, you know, okay, let's just

hypothetically say everything breaks down.

Or, you know, I can't go by toilet paper.

There's no meat on the shelves.

What would happen?

And you know, it was one of those
things where in the persona I

talked about it and this was me.

I always came up with excuses,
like, oh, I'd figure it out.

Oh, I'd do this.

But the reality is, if you take away that
ego, these are the readers who would sit

there and be like, oh shit, my kids would.

Yeah, I literally don't know
how to process an animal.

Like even if I hit a deer with my car,
I'd be throwing it whole on a fire and

hoping there'd be something to salvage,
you know, to, to nibble on and Right.

That's the reality.

And that's the reality I was
living in between those stages.

Like I had this dormant ember, right?

That, um, I always loved
mountain man's stories.

As a kid I always thought
about living out in the woods.

Um, I talk about in the book, like
before the divorce happened, my wife

and I happened to take a chance trip
to Idaho, um, on one of our vacations.

And it hooked me.

I saw all these animals and I was looking
at her, this was pre hunting, and I

was like, we're moving here one day.

And she's like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
maybe 20 years when we retire,

we'll buy a cabin or whatever.

And I was like, no, you don't understand.

Like, I feel physically called here.

Um, because I saw the opportunity to
learn and that experience coupled with

the true feelings I had underlying.

knowing that if something broke,
and I didn't have kids at the

time, and that's more personal to
me now with two kids, but Right.

I, I wouldn't have been
able to support my wife.

I wouldn't have been able to support
kids had I had 'em, like we literally

would've starved to death eventually,
or, you know, had to join some, you

know, walking Dead type commune and
hope for the best and hope that people

who are, you know, a little bit more
in tune with Earth would be able to

help provide us food or teach us.

But you know, that time, you
know, the time to learn is not

when you know shit hits the fan.

It's to take that proactive, that's
what, you know, push me over the

edge to start before the divorce.

And then, like you said, that catalytic
event in my life just happened to be

the point where I just went all in.

Travis Bader: Were you nervous about that?

Like, what if I go out there and.

I'm making a terrible decision.

Like I'm, I'm escaping away.

Like, did, did you have a large friend
group in, uh, Louisiana where you're

from a bunch of people that you would
interact on a daily basis and were

concerned about a population of 35
and in Atlanta, Idaho there was, were

these things kind of in your head

Zach Hanson: a little bit?

You know, we had a really tight
group with our Jiujitsu gym.

Right.

I mean, those were the people
we did everything with.

We were traveling all the time, so, you
know, yeah, there was concern there and

I was definitely gonna miss those folks.

But there was also a little bit of,
you know, If anyone's been through

a divorce, you'll know this feeling
like I did just want to get away.

I didn't want people to be
giving me advice like, oh,

Zach, you know, it's okay.

You did.

I just wanted to tell people to f off.

Like I just wanted to go.

Right.

You know, people wanna say like,
I just wanna go hide in the woods.

So I did mm-hmm.

. So yeah, I didn't have have
that fear at the outset.

Um, but when I got out there and I
realized I had no idea what the hell

I was doing, and I talk about it in
the book, like, I didn't know how to

start a fire in my wood burning stove,
and it gets down to like ne Yeah.

You know, we'll get down to
like negative 18 sometimes.

So, you know, I'm sitting there
jack hammering, freezing in my room,

wondering why my fire's not working
and I just don't have the flu open.

Right.

Yeah.

So it was when I got there that I
was learning all those hard lessons.

Like, like did I get in over my head?

Like, did I make this impulse decision
to just change everything in my life?

And, you know, thankfully I
had to stick with it , um, for

a lot of different reasons.

And, you know, Obviously came
out on the other end, learning

a lot and still learning a lot,

Travis Bader: but nope, no kidding.

Well, Idaho sounds like a great place.

Good friend of mine, Carl Fox.

He's, uh, from Idaho, lives up here in
Canada and he's always going on about it.

And, uh, you know, I think maybe in
the next month or so, I'm probably

gonna head down there and just
check it out just so I get a bitter

idea of what this is all about.

Uh, Brad Brookfields or Galley?

What's that?

Zach Hanson: Whereabouts.

Whereabouts in Idaho?

Travis Bader: Boise.

So probably very different from where

Zach Hanson: you're at.

Well, no.

So, you know, it's funny.

We actually have a place in Boise now.

So it's funny about, um, you know,
we live full-time up in Atlanta,

Idaho, which is the town of 35 people.

But you know, we're kind
of on this arc, right?

Like my wife and I and our two kids,
we've been living the mountain life,

but you know, with two infants, right?

We're having more and more
doctor's appointments.

So we ended up getting a place in
Boise for, you know, a small place

just so we could have a landing
spot when the roads avalanche in,

or rock slid in, uh, which happens
quite a bit and happened last week.

So, you know, Boise's our low, our
closest metropolitan area, so mm-hmm.

. Uh, the reason I say that is if you're
in Boise, We're just a cool three hour

four-wheel drive, uh, ride up the road.

So if you want to come stop by and check
out Atlanta, Idaho, you totally should.

Cause it's best.

It,

Travis Bader: it's three
hours and 40 minutes.

I think it was three hours and 40 minutes.

Cause I actually checked it out.

I, um, okay.

I might actually come out to the, uh, to
the area just so I have an understanding

of where it is that you're from and, uh,

Zach Hanson: okay.

Well we do not follow Google Maps.

Talk to me first because Google
Maps will lead you astray.

Uh, which it did for me the first time
that I went out to look for the hou at the

house that I ended up buying in winter.

It took me about 280 miles the wrong
way to a road that was a avalanche in.

I had to turn around and make the six hour
journey back just to, uh, go check it out.

So,

Travis Bader: yeah.

Yeah, it's always fun watching those maps.

I remember we were in Greece
and we had a place there and.

Spent a couple months over in Sco Pelos
and uh, the maps would take everybody

down, some old abandoned road and we're
like, okay, let's see how far these people

get, because it just gets narrower and
narrower on super steep cliff sides.

And yeah, having the wherewithal to
question technology such as Google or

artificial intelligence, I think is
a, uh, a good life skill for people to

Zach Hanson: have

Yeah, when we all need to
continue to, uh, refine.

Yeah.

Travis Bader: Well, I, I really
like the fact that, you know,

that you just figured it out.

I was having dinner with a friend a couple
weeks ago and uh, he's got a sailboat

and I said, oh, he picked up a sail.

I didn't know you knew how to sail.

He's like, Travis, it's a
sheet and it catches a wind.

Anybody can sail.

Right?

I said, huh?

He said, I mean, there's, I'm sure
a lot more to it, but I mean, you

just keep zigzagging yourself over
if you gotta go into the wind.

But, you know, anyone can sail
a boat at the base level of it.

And so now that's something
that we use in our household.

Uh, Jason, if you're, listen,
anyone can sail a boat.

I like it.

Anyone can purchase a
compound bow and go hunting.

Yes, there's a lot to it.

But you didn't let that dissuade you.

Uh, what, out of the different
ventures, cuz you talk about

hunting and trapping, which ones
presented the biggest challenge for

Zach Hanson: you?

, um, without a doubt trapping.

You know, it's, yeah, I, I would say that
it's the thing that I've taken the most

to, but it's also the thing that's been
the most difficult, um, you know, for

anybody who's ever set a foothold trap as
an adult for the first time with a little.

So for people who don't know, think
about a regular trap, two metal jaws,

really tight coil springs of steel.

You crank 'em down, get 'em flat,
and there's this little pan that you

set under a little lip of metal and
you're playing with this thing that

is meant to hold a very angry animal.

And, you know, when you set
it, it's nerve-wracking because

inevitably you will trap yourself.

And I did have many times over.

Um, obviously they're non-lethal.

They hurt in a lot of cases.

Mm.

Uh, but you know, that
barrier of entry to do that.

And then the.

, the amount of study and the amount
of intricacy that goes into trapping

any animal, especially canines.

I've found out, like I said,
they're way smarter than me.

Uh, is difficult, but actually
pursuing, trapping, you know, learning

to actually talk about leveraging the
whole animal, you know, taking the

fur, um, for beaver, like lettering the
tail, pulling out the glands because

you want to use 'em again in other
lores and bates that you might be using.

It is an exercise in using the
whole animal when you do get one.

Mm-hmm.

And you become way better at like,
taping stuff out and, you know,

butchering because you get to do it
a lot, you get a lot more reps in.

But I think that it's made me a
better, like archery hunter just

because of the study that goes into it.

And, you know, that includes
Beaver Otter, Martin.

There's just so many different
animals that you get a really, you

get like a PhD more quickly or an b.

an animal husbandry, just because you're
out there all the time and you get to

see tracks, you get to understand what
they're doing in different scenarios.

Like if you walk in a different way,
what are they gonna react if you

don't dissent your traps well enough,
are they gonna do something and

pee on your pan and embarrass you?

Um,

Travis Bader: like, like what
happened with the fox, right?

I think.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Zach Hanson: Yeah, it was, yeah.

And uh, it's happened with
wolves and coyotes too.

They're, they're, they're smart animals.

But yep, that's been the hardest learning
curve for me, but also the most rewarding.

And again, what I have found myself to
be truly most drawn to, like, I, I'm

going archery, mule deer hunting and
have Alina hunting next week in Arizona.

I'm very excited about that.

But I'd, I'd be a liar if I weren't
excited to already get back to my trap

lines to go check for Beaver Otter.

Like yesterday I found the new
dam upstream from us with a lodge

that I had missed in the summer.

So it's a, it's an exciting thing.

Very

Travis Bader: cool.

You know, my, my trapping experience
basically boils down to trying to

get rid of raccoons in the backyard
and got some raccoons, got some

skunks, um, uh, mostly live trapping.

Uh, conna bear tried that
actually for raccoons, I've found.

They climb, they don't dig,
and they're shock sensitive.

So for a real cheap on Amazon,
you can buy a, uh, a cattle

guard and, uh, electric fence.

Put it at the top of
your, uh, your wood fence.

Never had a raccoon problem since.

Why I, why I went that route?

Did you know that raccoon's
used a communal latrine?

Zach Hanson: I did not know that.

Travis Bader: Look at that.

I didn't know.

I didn't, yeah, I didn't know this
either until, uh, we bought our, our,

well, our current house that we're in.

and there was great big piles of raccoon
crap right in the middle of our yard.

And I started looking into it and
it turns out they will all come to

the same spot and they'll use a, a
communal latrine to go to the washroom.

And so I was out there with sling
shots and pellet guns and trying to

do everything, not paprika, hot sauce.

So all the things that the internet says
is good and uh, nothing was successful.

Pellet guns, they just kind of shrug a
little bit if you snap 'em with that.

So started doing the trapping and man,
there's so many, the electric fence solved

it, gone, never had a problem since.

And skunks, have you ever trapped a skunk?

Is

Zach Hanson: that I have.

I have.

Okay.

And, uh, my wife is still, I'm
say how to put it, you know, going

back to wanting to use the whole
animal, like, you know, trying to

extract skunk essence is, uh, right.

An art, uh, not so much a science,
uh, . So, . Yeah, I'll leave it at that.

But yeah, I have, uh, very interesting
animals make beautiful pelts.

Um, we have 'em up there, so trap 'em.

Okay.

If they, in a, they step in one,
I'm not really targeting them,

but have caught 'em before.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Okay.

Well, I, I've been fortunate enough to
never have gotten any stink on me, but,

uh, uh, live trap them, relocated them,
cardboard shield, home brew, whatever, as

I'm trying to, uh, to, to let them out.

But, um, I actually, after reading
your book, I thought, you know what?

I should learn more about trapping
and I've reached out to the local, uh,

British Columbia Trapping Association.

They've got a three day course,
so I, I gotta check that out

and, and see what it's about.

But you did a course as well
in trapping, didn't you?

Yeah.

Uh,

Zach Hanson: well, with Idaho right.

You have to have a trapper's
license, so, right.

I went and did that
and, and that was okay.

You know, it was very basic like,
Hey, here are some basic traps.

You know, I didn't learn
as much as I thought, but.

. I had my heart set on wolf trapping.

That's a big thing out here in Idaho.

You know, I was getting to see
firsthand how some of the, you know,

wolf populations around where I live.

Cause you can hear 'em, you can
see 'em, you know, decimating

elk and deer all around us.

Right.

You know, focus on that.

And they have to have in Idaho
a wolf trapper's license.

You know, that allows me to take
up to like 15 wolves every season.

Right.

That's where I learned a lot.

Um, the, the teacher there was
a really great wolf trapper.

You know, he actually went into kind
of the, the science and the art behind

it and talked about what you should
shouldn't do, like how you should go

through these different processes.

It was a mentorship thing for me.

Uh, and that was helpful.

You know, I still haven't trapped
a wolf successfully to this date.

I mean, they're super smart, but it helped
me with all my other canine trapping.

And since then, you know, I've gone
to, um, a bunch of different courses

on it, just out of my own curiosity
cuz there's so much to learn.

And in fact, I'm going down to
the Idaho Trapper's Association,

uh, first sale in two or three
weeks here in Glen's Ferry, Idaho.

And gonna be there signing books.

But I'm planning to take a lot of the
courses they have, they'll have, you know,

, different beaver type of approaches
you can do for different scenarios.

Mm-hmm.

, the list is endless on, you know,
people who have experienced and had

success doing things people other people
haven't, you know, and vice versa.

So the community I have found with
trapping has been way more welcoming

for a newbie than the hunting community.

That's not to say that I did really.

I have um, okay, nice.

And I think it's nice.

It's partially because it's a little
more accessible maybe, you know?

Mm-hmm.

It's odd to get props.

So Clay Newcomb with meat eater, I
reached out to him totally to read my

chapter on Bear, where I mentioned him as
kind of a little bit of an inspiration.

He took the time to read it
and said, Hey, this looks good.

You're allowed to use my name.

I said, okay.

But when I talked to Tom Miranda, who's,
you know, a famous bow hunter, but you

know, cut his teeth, trapping very, you
know, involved in the National Trapper's

Association, and then Rusty Kramer,
who's the Idaho Trapper Association.

Those guys didn't just like
say, okay, hey new guy.

Like, you know, uh, yeah, I'll
read your stupid little chapter and

give you a thumbs up . Like, you
know, they said, this is awesome.

Like, we're very glad you're here.

What can we do to help you?

And it was really kind.

Yeah, it was an effusive like, I
think because it's a little bit

more on the periphery and it's a
lot often under a lot more scrutiny.

Uh, the things that go around it are,
are a lot more tight-knit and they

want more people in, they want people
who are, you know, educated and can

articulate the experience in a way that
is honest, but also, you know, positive

and talk about the benefits of it.

And, you know, a guy, the Montana
Trappers Association President Chris

Morgan, you know, he's been fantastic
giving me all sorts of stuff.

And you know, one of the things that
my wife is equal parts happy and equal

parts, you know, Tired of it is since the
books come out, I've had more trappers

send me boxes of their homemade lores
and, you know, cat urine and other

stuff, . So without fail, like at least
once or twice a month, my wife will

come in with like a soggy u s box that I
think this one's for you and hand it over

So it's just been super welc welcoming
is really what it boils down to.

That is so

Travis Bader: cool.

Yeah.

You know, I always, I always like
talking to people who've got a fair

bit of experience in a certain field
and asking them like, what have you

learned that might surprise someone?

Like I, I asked a Randy's a
firefighter and I said, you know,

I know about fire, I like fire.

What, what can you teach me about fire?

What did you learn in
your, uh, in your training?

, uh, it might surprise people and he says,
oh, everything burns in a gases state.

Well, I guess nearly everything,
nothing burns in a solid state.

You heat it up hot enough
gas, it'll gas off.

And that's what burns I'm
like, huh, I like that.

And I use that for when
teaching fire making.

That's if someone just keeps sat
in the back of their head, okay, I

can't just jump to a big piece of
wood cuz it's gotta get hot enough to

gas off and that's what is going to
actually make the fire for trapping.

What have you learned that maybe
surprised you that you wouldn't have

thought of prior to getting into it?

Zach Hanson: Oh man.

Um, that's gonna be hard
to boil down to just one.

So let me think about like, what is the
most beneficial and probably painful

lesson that I've ever learned in trapping?

Um,

let me think about a way to
get something that's succinct.

able to be taken away.

I mean, other than animals
are just way smarter than me.

Um, it would be

river otters.

And again, this is not gonna be
like a piece of advice you'll be

able to take away like your friend.

So I apologize for that Sure.

In the first place.

But river otters are
hell of a swimmer, man.

They Yeah.

Are fast.

Oh yeah.

I mean, you might see it in the zoo,
so it might not be a lot of new stuff,

but I actually have one of the coolest
experiences of my life, um, about a month

ago, right at the start of OT or at Otter
season here in Idaho, I was out trapping

Bieber and uh, I got out with my headlamp
and I was about to get in the water to

set some kind of bears and foothold traps.

And I saw a beaver.

Yeah.

And I was like, oh, cool.

Um, Normally when you see a
beaver, they, they scurry right?

And it dipped in the water.

Sure.

I went over there and I was shining
down with my headlight and this beaver

is just hauling through the water.

I'm like, what is this thing doing
and why is it not afraid of me?

And it kind of came up
in the dark on the mound.

I was standing on near
the side of the road.

I was like, well that's weird.

So I clapped my hands and it
disappeared and went into the den,

got in the water, you know, chest
high, waiters, you know, deep water.

This beaver comes out and starts
swimming circles around me.

I'm like, this is like
the coolest thing ever.

And I really hope I don't get attacked
by a beaver, cuz a buddy of mine

had just sent me some cheesy horror
flick called Zombie is where like

the end of the world and everything.

Seen it.

Yep.

So you know what I'm talking about.

Yep.

Seen it.

Yeah.

So I was afraid that was gonna be the
scenario, but you know, it went away.

Set my trap.

came back the next day and I had this
beautiful, huge otter on a drowning wire.

And what I realized is, you know, we had
torn out that dam we being the highway

district, which I was the chairman
of at the time for the rural area.

And that empty den had
been taken over by Otter.

So it was an otter that
was swimming around me.

You know, beaver aren't
that fast in the water.

Right, right.

Okay.

Uh, but that makes sense.

It was pretty cool.

And you know, hindsight being what it
is, you know, they call otters river

wolves for a lot of different reasons
cuz they can be pretty cranky little

curious things and eat all our trout.

So, uh, I was glad that I did not get
attacked by an otter, but the coolest

thing I've learned trapping is that otter
really fast and really cool swimmers and

cool thing to have a little interaction.

Travis Bader: That's pretty neat.

I've never, I've seen them
kind of going under the dock.

One of the cabins I've, I'll see them
as, they kind of like just slink down

into the river and then disappear.

Never had the experience to watch
'em just zip around like that.

That'd be pretty neat.

Zach Hanson: Yeah.

And I guess the only other thing to
take away, if you start trapping,

a lot of animals have baula, you
know, penis bones, and Right.

When you trap a lot of of animals
and you wanna get into, you know,

using everything, you know, you'll
have an endless supply of Christmas

gifts if you get into trapping . Uh,
so this muzzle stick for you?

. Exactly.

So yeah, save money on Christmas.

Start trapping.

Travis Bader: Actually, a
guy was killed by a beaver.

I remember, uh, uh, reading
about that a number of years ago.

I guess a thing came at
him and bit him in his leg.

And then he got his femoral,
apparently, if I recall correctly,

he was actually killed by a beaver.

The other weird one about, yeah.

,
Zach Hanson: you know, seeing what's that?

Their teeth like when you see their teeth
and you like pull back their lipstick and

you, you know, cape out their heads, their
teeth are huge and they're like steel.

So it's one of those things like, I
could see that, uh, yeah, totally happen,

Travis Bader: but what a bad way to go.

He's a kidding.

Oh, it'd be terrible.

Everyone would be laughing
about that forever.

I know.

Killed by a beaver.

Are you kidding me?

Yeah.

I remember as a kid I had a beaver skull
that had found and uh, it's got these kind

of yellow teeth that are coming out, but
you could pull the teeth and just keep on

coming and coming and coming and current.

All the white stuff, the, the
teeth grow real far back into their

head, which was something that
was kind of an interesting one.

Yeah, I guess they always have
to chew because their teeth

are, they're always growing.

Zach Hanson: Right.

That's my understanding.

So yeah, they're, uh, constantly
chewing and knocking trees over our

road, so they're always at work.

I know that's for sure.

Travis Bader: Here's another one that
a lot of people raised as an eyebrow.

When I mention it, I don't know if
it's been your experience, if you've

ever seen this, but driving through the
tunnel, highway 99, we turn into Ladner.

I look up on the right, I'm like, what
the hell is that thing up in a tree there?

It looks like a beaver.

Did you know that beavers can climb trees?

Zach Hanson: Yep.

I did not know that.

That's another, that's the second
factor hitting with me was something

that I feel like I should know.

But no, I'm gonna start.

I didn't know.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

How the heck did this
beaver get up in the tree?

I've never, in a million years is what
I thought that there'd be a beaver.

I, I pulled over and I'm looking at 'em.

That's a beaver up there
in the tree Anyways.

Yeah,

Zach Hanson: the beaver
facts are, are endless.

Like one of the cool things in Idaho, like
in the Frank Church wilderness, I think

it was in the twenties, thirties, I might
have the dates wrong, but you know, there

had been, uh, a dearth of population and
they needed some deforesting efforts.

So they parachuted in a bunch of beavers
and anticipation of, uh, You know, trying

to defor it and there's like, there's like
a commemorative coin in Idaho or something

like of a parachuting beaver and you
know, all sorts of weird stuff like that.

So then it's a rich history and that's
what has kind of drawn me to beaver,

you know, like this one on my wall.

And you know, it for us, you know, Canada,
the us you know, the Canadian fur trade

and the American fur trade, like that's
what our countries were founded on.

That's where, you know, we all started,
was in the rivers trapping beaver and

feeling that connection today, like
as cheesy as it sounds, and you'd

asked about like, what I've taken to
like being in the water, in the snow

in the winter with a trap on my back.

You know, trying to target an animal
that people have been doing for

hundreds of years is one of the coolest
freaking things that I've ever done.

And it just, it makes me happy every
time I do it, regardless of success rate.

Travis Bader: That is awesome.

Are you typically using the compound bow?

Because I saw one of the pictures I
look like in, uh, the bottom corner.

There's a fluted barrel with a
muzzle break on a, uh, a rifle.

But reading how you write and you write
very well, um, it doesn't seem like you

really come from a gun background though.

Uh, no.

Zach Hanson: Um, that, you know,
I've done pistol shooting, so like my

ex-wife, you know, f fbi, special agent,
like, we would go shoot all the time.

Like, I'm not unfamiliar with weapons.

I grew up with weapons in the
household, you know, shooting with

uncles, like rifles, stuff like that.

But, um, that rifle you see is my 300 prc.

Uh, it was gifted to me by, uh, a buddy
of mine who is a hunter, a rifle hunter.

Uh, and he and I owned a
company together in one year.

We weren't doing so great, so he was
like, I'm gonna build his custom rifles.

I'm like, all right, that's fine.

Better than taking a check.

So he built this beautiful 300
prc, put a great optic on it.

He is like, this is gonna
be great, blah, blah, blah.

You know, it sat in my closet for a year
just because, you know, for me, I shot

thousands of arrows before I even went
and sat in my tree stand for the first

time and never saw a deer, you know?

Mm-hmm.

, it, it's a level of comfort for me
to be able to go out and attempt

to take an animal with something.

So I did actually in this
past year, I ended up doing a

course here in Boise, Idaho.

It was a long range shooting course,
so, you know, they taught me how to take

that gun out to a thousand yards, you
know, a little over a thousand yards.

Um, but since then, you know,
I set up some steel behind her

house in Atlanta, and I've shot
it maybe three or four times.

So it's one of those things where,
you know, I wouldn't, if you get said,

Hey, Zach, you can go on a doll sheep
hunt tomorrow, but it's gonna be rifle,

you know, unless I'm 200 yards, which
maybe we could do where it's zeroed.

I'm probably not gonna take a shot
just cause I'm not comfortable.

That doesn't mean that
that's not on my docket.

Like I would love to be proficient at
rifle hunting like, but what I've learned,

you know, my false assumption coming into
hunting was that archery is this, you

know, again, this was my pretension and
ego speaking like this is, we're romantic.

Yeah, exactly.

It's this, I'm gonna be close and
have this experience with animal, um,

rifle hunting in the mountain west
in Canada, in the us I don't care if

you're with a stick, a knife, a bow, a
gun, it is hard no matter what you do.

Mm-hmm.

and especially like a rifle seasons,
you know, like for elk don't

tend to be when they're as vocal.

So you know, you have to be a little
bit further away and you know, I

have an appreciation for that now.

Just bow hunting that.

. There's half the time that I've seen
animals that I don't even know if

I'd be able to take with a rifle.

Um, and there's just a good chance that
I woo a shot with a rifle as they do

with a bow, you know, given practice

So, yeah, it's something I want to
do and I have the equipment now.

It's just a matter of making it a
prioritization and it just hasn't

bubbled up to the top for me yet.

But anybody who wants to come
take me rifle hunting in Idaho

and teach me the ropes and uh, you
know, please come out and let's go.

Travis Bader: Well, let's put that
out there for anyone in Idaho.

I'd say come up to bc, but for anything
big game here, you gotta be with a guide.

Hey, I can take you out for waterfall.

But you can do that pretty
easily where you are too.

Yeah.

And in fact, back in Louisiana, some,
some great water fouling down there.

Zach Hanson: Yeah, I, I was, and bummed.

You know, it was one of those things
that catch 22, like the, the what

ifs, you know, not growing up hunting.

I think about all the missed
opportunities and places that I have

lived, like, um, you know, , obviously
South Carolina, Tennessee, good

deer hunting, young Louisiana.

I missed out on waterfowl
and upland type birds.

I lived overseas for a long time,
so I lived in Kurgastan where they

have some amazing, like, you know,
IEX and other hunting opportunities.

Uh, you know, I lived in the caucuses
mountains in Georgia and Russia, you know,

awesome hunting opportunities, so I missed
out on all those, is what I'm saying.

Uh, by not getting into it younger,

Travis Bader: hey, you're into it now.

That's all that matters, right?

Yep.

When you're putting this book
together, did you start out on your

journey thinking, I'm gonna document
along the way, this is gonna be a

book, or did you at some, at what
point did you decide that this was

Zach Hanson: gonna be a book?

Yeah, I, I didn't have it planned out.

Like I've always written, I've
written one other book, um,

you know, it was kind of about.

, artificial intelligence ish stuff.

Um, okay.

I've always liked to write,
I've always journaled.

I've always done these things.

I've blogged, I've, I've always liked
long form writing because for me, I have

such like a monkey mind, like to get a
clear thought out, I need to spend time

putting it on paper, digital or otherwise.

Mm.

Um, and that's just my medium for
getting like my own thoughts across.

Like, if I'm frustrated with my wife,
I will say, Hey, let's not talk right

now because I'm gonna have word vomit
that's just gonna piss you off more.

So let me go away , you know, put
it down on paper and then we can

talk about it in a little while.

And that's worked well for me.

Um, but when I went through that
divorce, like my ex-wife and I, despite

the kind of unexpected nature of it,
we were really kind to each other.

And that was like my mantra from the
second that I heard about it is like,

I am not gonna react to this in anger.

And that took a lot from me.

to not react in anger about the situation
that I happened to find myself in.

And so I actually went and was
thinking, you know, after a few months

I'd been in Idaho, I was like, you
know, she and I were still friends,

we were being very kind to each other.

I'm like, I should write a book about
like, you know, how to get through

divorce ego free, and still come out
with some version of a friendship, right?

Mm-hmm.

, you know, if, if that's what you wanted.

So, sure, that was kind of my
initial thought for a book.

But then as I kind of meditated
on it in the woods, you know,

I was like, that's not the book
that I'm, I'm writing like this.

This is a real true just journey.

Like the divorce is part of that.

And like the way I reacted
is, you know, good and maybe I

could write that book one day.

But you know, for me it was this
just transformative experience.

And as I was journaling, just as I
always did, I started seeing these

stories come together and, you know, . I
thought in my head like, there's no way

I could write a hunting or trapping book
because all I'm doing is failing in, in

my mind the way we defined it earlier.

Right.

I'm not harvesting animals.

Sure.

I'm making a lot of mistakes along the way
and like who, who would wanna read that?

Right.

But as I thought about it more and I
talk to more people and I like tried

to be honest cuz when I went through
this divorce, I'm like, you know what?

I wanna just be honest as much
as I can the rest of my life.

Like I just want to be open,
even if it's embarrassing.

Mm-hmm.

. So I'd have conversations with people
and hunters and they'd be like,

oh dude, I went through that too.

And I'm like, you did, but like you
seem like you got your shit together.

Like, no, no, I went
through that too, man.

And those kind of started
to compound and I.

Going back to how we discussed about
writing for that persona, I'm like,

there's gotta be so many more people
out there that are just like me.

Cuz I am not some unique snowflake.

I am, you know, a Joe Blow who happened
to be in, you know, the corporate world.

You know, a million other people just
like me who have these thoughts but

you know, have some many barrier.

So that was why and how it
came about, but it started with

a completely different idea.

Travis Bader: Interesting.

Uh, and you mentioned
meditating out in the woods.

Is that something you do often?

Hmm.

Zach Hanson: You know, I
talk about it with my wife.

My wife now it's very religious.

Um, I grew up in the south
religious household, but I

never took to religion so much.

Like I explored the world.

Sure.

I was lived overseas for a long time.

I lived in Saudi Arabia, so
I studied Islam, you know, I

studied Orthodox Christianity
and Russia and these other areas.

It was always of interest
when I would travel like.

You know, there's a lot of
common threads I've found.

Like if you put aside like the religious
organizations, you know, do good to

your neighbor be kind, blah, blah, blah.

Sure.

But my wife's very religious.

You know, we go to church, we
do these different things and

I enjoy it now as an adult.

But I told her from the beginning,
like, I feel religious when I

happen to be out in the woods.

And I started to notice that as an
adult, when I would actually, when I

started to learn to hunt, you know,
when I'm sitting in this tree stand,

despite being bored, I had this
appreciation for these things around me.

You know, I wasn't intentionally
meditating on it, but I

found myself in that state.

And especially like when you're in a
place like Idaho or Montana, like where

you can't help but feel small every
time you walk outta your doorstep.

And that reminder of being small,
when you do it every day and

you actually, you know, at least
acknowledge it and don't just let it

kind of slide by and become the norm.

For me, that just like beat me down
in a positive way to where like I was

having religious experiences out there,
standing in the water, trying to trap

for beaver, no matter the outcome.

When I hear an elk bugle, I'm
like, you know, that's as close to

God as I'm getting on this earth.

You know, in my mind.

And those things compounded too.

And you know, for me that's
my religious experience.

You know, an organized religious
experience is just getting out

in the woods and it's something
you can't describe to people

who don't go do it themselves.

Travis Bader: I would
have to agree with that.

You know, there, there is just this, like
you say, a religious, there's a cleansing.

There's this calming a oneness
sort of experience about just being

out in the woods or if you're a
Canadian being out in the bush.

Yep.

Um, and people will laugh at us.

Oh, that bush, that bush right there.

Which bush are you talking about?

Right.

But really, you, you get up in
the mountains, you get out in a

little bit of isolation and, and
you know, I've had a past podcast

guest, uh, Nikki, Nick Vandel.

She was on alone, which is, uh,
TV show where they put you out in

the woods and you gotta survive.

And she did phenomenally well.

And she's like, you can
do it in your backyard.

You, you can go to a park and do it.

You don't have to be like right
out in the middle of nowhere.

You don't have to be doing something
extreme like what Zach is doing.

You can still have those experiences.

I, I just find it, I find it really
interesting how it seems with ai, with

computers and everything else that,
uh, technology, the way that we're,

we're working, um, We're trying so
hard to make everybody so connected,

but yet how there's this fundamental
thread of being disconnected that

seems to be running through most people
that I talk to, that I encounter.

And I don't know if that's just
because I'm in an echo chamber or

I'm surrounded by people of similar
kind of interests, or if there is

a higher level of disconnectedness
from the fact that people just aren't

experiencing the outdoors in the same way.

I don't know.

Yeah.

What are your thoughts

Zach Hanson: on that?

Yeah.

My perspective is, you know, writing
this book, so obviously my big

social media is LinkedIn, right?

It is goofy as that sound, you
know, professional networking site.

But, you know, this past year, um,
as I wrote the book, I'd have pe you

know, it was funny, I worked for a huge
company, you know, publicly traded.

You know, I'm on calls with vendors
from Google, from wherever, and.

, I just decided I, I don't care.

Like I'm gonna be me, you
know, even if I get fired.

So I'm showing up to these calls
with, you know, animals behind

me in various states of undress.

If I, like, I got blood on my hands
in the morning and I'm on a call.

And what's funny is it sparks
a conversation and I, I was

afraid, to be honest, I was
afraid that I was gonna get fired.

You know, there's a lot of woke
cultures, things like that, you know,

so I tried to be like cautious and
I'm not showing it off, you know, if

it happens to be in the background,
that happens to be in the background.

Yeah.

But the amount of people in the
tech industry that I, you know,

work with on a daily basis, they
might see it and not say anything.

But without fail, I have gotten
so many messages from people

saying, do you mind if we talk?

And yeah, it's been amazing to get
on the call with these people, you

know, who live in San Francisco,
live in New York, live in Austin,

and you know, might not be getting.

that dose of, I'm gonna call it reality.

I don't mean like reality and you
know, like, uh, the way most people

use it, like real outdoor experiences,
like what the earth and world really

just is, which is, you know, violence
and meanness in the outdoor world.

And Sure.

They

become,

Travis Bader: there is no, there
is no mean, there is no nice here.

This is,

Zach Hanson: yeah, exactly.

And a lot of times that's
violent and, you know, sure.

A lot of times it's beautiful and
charming too, but, you know, there's,

there's extremes and people started
to say, how are you doing that?

Like, you know why, like, I, I'm very
curious, you know, there's a lot of

curious people coming to me saying
like, I kind of have these feelings too.

Like, I've been stuck in lockdown for two
years in my, you know, studio apartment

in New York City with crack heads running
around, stabbing people outside, like.

, is there a better place?

I'm like, well, you know,
probably . Uh, yeah.

But there's a lot of people out there
that are having these kind of innate,

like you said, there's this common thread
of disconnectedness that people, Hmm.

I believe, and again, I could be wrong.

I always reserve the right to be
wrong, but you know, I believe that

there is an innate feeling in all of
us to have a connectedness to nature.

And like you said, technology, our society
is pushing us in a different direction.

And I think with technology, people
were becoming a little hip to that, you

know, even though they're being sucked
in and addictive features to the things

were leveraging, there really is this
opportunity where there is information out

there if you pull the thread a little bit.

Um, mm.

You know, there, uh, I don't know if
you've had the chance to read it, but

I'm gonna go on this little diatribe
because I think it's really important.

Okay.

At the end of the book, um,
I mentioned this short story.

I think that it's written by Em Forester.

This story was written in 1907.

You can Google it.

It's called, uh, the
Machine Stops, I Believe.

Or when the Machine Stops, you'll,
you'll have to fact check me

there, but you can look it up.

You see Berkeley has like the 27 pages.

This story was written in 1907, and this
guy writes this story and paints this

picture where the whole world has kind
of migrated to the core of the earth and

everybody has assigned their own rooms.

They've betrayed the earth.

You know, they don't want oxygen, they
want this to machine, to provide for 'em.

All they care about is higher
education and philosophy.

So essentially all these people are.

and then they're taken to their own
room, which might be on the other

side of the earth from their parents.

They're provided for, they can
FaceTime this guy, predicted FaceTime

with people across the world.

You know, all they're trying to
do is just become more educated.

But the story goes, this mother is in
this thing and she's irritated by her

son calling her from across the world.

He is like, I need you to come see me.

And it was very rare for people
to actually go and see them.

So this writer also predicted air travel.

So the mother gets on this plane,
leaves like the underground

colony and flies over.

And part of the story is her kind of
sitting in this plane looking down at

the beautiful, you know, bear Himalayas
just disgusted that, you know, how could

people have ever wanted to be in that
like violent, you know, barren place

of, you know, trouble and struggle
and everything else, and then lands.

And you know, her son is like,
I found a way out like this.

There's something better out there.

And the mom's like, no, you're crazy.

. And you know, the story ends
with the sun kind of like

climbing up through this thing.

As the machine breaks down and people
start dying underground because, you

know, they're reliant on this apparatus
and the sun is the one who kind of

kinda climbs up through the rafters
and makes it to the earth and finds

other people who had escaped too.

And they're like, you know, this is,
you know, he was afraid to breathe air

for the first time, but then he did.

He, oh my God, this is it.

So that story is so apropo for
what we're talking about, which is

there's this innate need, like, it,
it feels so good to be provided for.

It feels so good to have creature
comforts, but there's a beauty and

struggle, and there's no better place
to find struggle than in nature.

And to kind of get back in touch
with that innate feeling, I believe,

Travis Bader: I like that.

I, I'm right on side with you.

You can't be happy if you've
had everything given to you.

That struggle is.

That learning process, those difficulties,
that overcoming the building, that's

happiness is a byproduct of all of that.

If you try and shortcut all of that,
if you Cooper responsibility of your

food gathering in your harvesting
air quotes here of animals to the

butcher, to the grocery store, to
Costco delivery, you are doing away

with that struggle and your struggles.

Now.

People are still gonna have struggles.

They're just gonna be different struggles.

Oh, my Costco delivery was an hour
late instead of when I was, that

means I missed my appointment.

Right.

And I, and I think that's
where the, um, I don't know the

reality of, of living starts to.

go askew.

Like what, what's important to a person?

What is important is like, to me,
what's important to me, well, I

wanna make sure that I'm healthy.

I wanna make sure I'm healthy
so I can look after my family

and that they're healthy.

Um mm-hmm.

, and then my friend network.

And I wanna make sure that I
have time to be able to allot the

appropriate amount of time for my
family, my friends, myself, um, works

pretty far down there on the list.

It's an important thing that needs to be
done so that we can, we can live, we can

do our things, but push comes to shove.

I mean, what is, what's that saying?

A rich man has many wants.

A sick man has only one.

Right.

Um, what is it that makes you happy?

Zach Hanson: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, nothing's been cooler.

No trapping, no animal, like hands
down, being a dad is the coolest

fricking thing in the world.

And part of that whole idea of being a
dad for me is like, I'm now getting to

share some of these things that, you know,
are, Still a new exciting thing for me.

Trapping and hunting.

Like, I took my daughter in
a sled out to check the trap

lines the other day in the snow.

She had a blast.

You know, she was, you know, petting the
dead beaver and trying to give it a hug.

I'm like, all right, well
let's, let's not do that.

But, you know, sure, being
a dad truly makes me happy.

So family, I is the nutshell,
like family is important to me.

You know, clearly becoming
more connected with nature.

And, you know, I do wanna say for
people listening too, like we've

talked about my all in approach, right?

That was right for me, and I
happened to have the right time

and opportunity to do that.

But kinda like you said, you know, you
don't have to do that to start introducing

little bits of wildness to kind of get
reconnected with that common thread.

We all have.

You know, it might be going to do
a, a pig butchering class where you

would normally get your meat anyways.

It might be taking a walk outside the,
you know, Opportunity is truly endless.

And there's a spectrum, and I'm
on one end of that spectrum,

and that's worked for me.

And anybody who wants
to do it, good on you.

It you'll learn a lot.

But there's, you know, stepping stones
you can take along the way to kind of

beat that down and, you know, beat the
monotony and, you know, I'm not immune to

falling back into some of my old habits.

You know, like I said, we ended
up buying a place in Boise,

so we had a place to land.

And when we're here mm-hmm.

, we do DoorDash, we do, uh, , you know.

Yeah.

You know, our delivery and those
creature comforts are still nice.

It's not like I'm, you know, fully out in
the woods all the time when my pitch fork,

you know, telling people to stay away.

But it's, well, I figured out
what works for me to kind of

keep that level that I need.

And, you know, for me, like when I am
in Boise, a city of 200,000 people,

it feels like when I used to live in
Moscow or Riyad Saudi Arabia, like it

feels like a million person city and
I can only take so much before I'm

like, You know, once you're free, you
can't really go back kind of situation.

Like once you've tasted the
marrow, uh, you know, real Yeah.

Like the solitude,

Travis Bader: like the chapter title of
one of your, well, in your book, one of

the chapter titles, tasting the Marrow.

Um, yeah.

You know, I remember reading a
study once about road rage and

there was a correlation on road
rage incidents and population size.

And they said essentially, and I mean
it makes sense, but essentially under a

certain population side, the preponderance
of road rage was next to nothing.

But once you reach a certain threshold,
and I forget what it is, all of a sudden

the people in your community don't
become people in your mind anymore.

For most people it's just, it's just a
car or someone or something just cut me

off and I'm, I'm, I'm upset in a small
enough, uh, metric small community.

And it's like, ah,
there's, there's Bob again.

He's probably drunk.

Or there's Janice, you
know, she's pretty old.

And you just, you just kinda let it go.

But there's a dehumanization process
that happens in people's minds

over a certain population size.

And yeah.

Zach Hanson: Yeah.

That's beautiful.

And not beautiful in the fact that,
you know, that happens, but it's true.

And that, that happened to me.

And I, I, I lived that, right?

I was living in these big cities
before I went to, you know,

Idaho, of a town of 35 people.

And in the book I talk about, like,
I had no interest in being a part

of that community when I went there.

Like, I was there to like
isolate, learn to hunt and

trap, you know, neighbors fine.

But I got sucked in, um, you know,
by hooker, by book, you know,

like, you know, Neighbor had to
help me learn how to open a flu.

And then I'm like, oh
yeah, I'm Zack, by the way.

You're like, oh yeah, you're the new guy.

I'm like, no, that's me,

Um, but it, it happened that way.

And there was that dehumanization of, you
know, I had been so burned by these big

cities and this tiredness that I felt and
that, you know, dehumanization like, yeah.

Someone driving down the street, that
asshole, you know, they're cutting me off.

Like, oh, what I would do to them.

But now you're right.

Like, it doesn't mean people don't
piss you off, cuz they do, but you

know who it is and you know more about
their life experience, what they're

going through in any given time, or you
might be the one more understanding.

Yeah, yeah.

It goes both ways, but it's, uh, that
was a big learning experience for me too.

It almost, you know, I took the hunting
and trapping is great, but it also

just re-grounded me as a human and made
me appreciate, like, despite the bs,

despite the polarization, despite the,
you know, Pressure from social media

one way or the other, an algorithm
pushing certain things down your throat.

Like we're all humans.

We all have stories to tell.

Some of us are innately bad,
I'm sure, but you know, for

the most part people are great.

You know, I learned that yeah,
a long time ago and forgot it.

Like I lived in Russia,
I lived in Saudi Arabia.

You think of like all the kind of bad
actor states in a lot of our minds, like

the people I met, they're on the ground.

Some of the most amazing, beautiful
human beings I've ever had the

privilege of talking with and
conversing with and breaking bread with.

And you know, my journey back
in the States ironically kind

of broke that down in me.

And when we were living in
these big cities, like you said,

Travis Bader: money.

So you, you took that conversation to
the next place where I was gonna take it.

Awesome segue on your part.

But that was an, that was something
that I picked up on in reading

your book and maybe I'm reading too
far into it, maybe I'm not, you'll

let me know, but I got the sense.

That you wanted to be away from
everybody, only to find at the end

that it is a people around you that
really kind of made you feel whole.

Yep.

Uh, is, is that an accurate
reading of your book?

Zach Hanson: Yeah.

And we've touched on
it a little bit, right?

Like a hundred percent.

Yeah.

You know, I went out
there to defy everybody.

I was feeding my own ego in that
moment to say, I don't need my

ex-wife, I don't need anybody.

Like, I can go and I
will learn to survive.

And I didn't, you know, I screwed,
you know, left to my own devices.

I would've been like, had a handful
of traps, a bow, and been even

skinnier than I already am now.

Um, begging someone for food and even
going to the trapping community, right?

Like, I wasn't expecting to be immersed in
that, but they welcomed me with open arms.

Um, you know, it's, there's just
been a welcoming community overall.

And when I kind of.

, it wasn't my own doing that
made me break down that barrier.

It was nature doing it for
me in a lot of respects.

So I'm appreciative of that.

But it got me there and now I'm
very appreciative of my community.

I, you know, am back to appreciating
it in a much better light and

realizing that, you know, yeah, there
might be some people who could go

out there and do it by themselves,
but I'm not that guy is the point.

You know, there are people like
that, but it's not me and I

don't think it's a lot of people.

Travis Bader: Yeah, I think a lot of
people have this imagination that it could

be them or it is them, but the reality
of it, I think we need each other and

we need to figure a way to be able to
communicate with each other and get along.

And, you know, being out in the
woods, being out in a smaller

population allows you the ability
to, uh, maybe do that a bit.

So I know you're not
really on social media.

Um, we did put some questions out
to the Silvercore Club members

and as well on social media.

We got a couple of questions and I got one
just, you know, from a personal interest.

It'll probably segue really well
back into something that, that you

said earlier when we were talking.

But a couple questions that we
got, uh, one person says, uh, what

techniques and methods did you
learn that could assist someone else

looking to write their own book?

Zach Hanson: So, is there anything?

Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.

Um, I have a golden rule and I had
written a book before self-published,

didn't go with a publisher.

Um, I worked with a publisher.

I worked with Tucker Max and
that crew down there, and he

taught me genuinely how to write.

Um, you know, I knew how to.

, but I was always in this vein
of, you know, again, ego.

I would write something, you
know, write a couple paragraphs

and I'd be like, oh yeah, Zack,
that's, that's pretty damn good.

And then I'd immediately go back and
start editing it, you know, like just

tweaking it and focusing on this.

And then I never really got that far.

So one of the things that they
taught for me and writing a book

is this idea of a vomit draft.

So genuinely, if you have an
idea for a book, create an

outline and do not stop writing.

Meaning from chapter one to
chapter 40, whatever it is, start

at chapter one and just write.

And then when you get to a
stopping point, you do not go

back and reread what you wrote.

And there's techniques for that.

Like, I actually ended up like blacking
out with a highlighter what was before it.

So when I came back the next day, I
might leave like a half a sentence so

I could understand where I left off.

Mm-hmm.

and I'd pick up.

And that way you actually
get words on paper.

Now that makes the editing
process that much more of a bear.

. Mm-hmm.

. But you already have this
turb to polish, right?

So you gotta get that on paper, right.

. Um, that's, you know,
that's changed my approach.

So like, now I actually have
another book coming out next week.

You'll be able to check it on Amazon.

It's my first foray into fiction,
historical fiction, uh, okay.

The Western genre from the 1860s.

Um, and I just got in the mode
of writing, so I write every day.

So I wrote a whole nother book, shopped
it around to a publisher, and now I

have a three book contract deal for
a Western series, um, halfway through

the second book in that series.

And I'm on the hook for another
one by the end of the year.

But it's all taking that vomit draft, so.

Very good.

Get it on paper.

Yep.

Get it on paper is the key.

Uh, then go back and edit it.

Just do not, whatever you
do, do not edit as you go.

Just.

Travis Bader: Good advice.

Okay.

This next question is, and it's
one that I actually will struggle

with, uh, is both switching gears.

Is it difficult to jump back and
forth between the off-grid life

and then being the tech guy?

Is it hard for you to switch gears?

Zach Hanson: Um, it's, it was
when I kept them separate.

Mm-hmm.

meaning like, it was difficult when
I put on my full facade of shirt and

tie Zach, you know, at the office
blurring my background and, you

know, being the stuffy asshole that
we all are in our corporate lives.

Um, what made it easier is when, you
know, I really just decided like,

you know, why, why am I bothering?

Like, if people are who I think
they are, which they have turned out

to be, they're gonna be accepting.

And as long as I'm not being
gaudy with like, again, a dead.

Animal behind me that's half skinned.

You know, that's me being an asshole.

But if I'm just being me and presenting
myself as who I am and being open to

talk to people about it, or someone
asked me about my weekend not being

afraid to say, yeah, I was out on my trap
line, um, you know, that has helped me

bridge that gap is just being authentic.

Mm-hmm.

, now I get not everybody is in that
position to be able to do that.

Um, but that was a commitment I made
to myself and it's actually, I would

say helped me more in my professional
life because I've actually built more

relationships with people, even people
who don't hunter trap, but are just

curious and, you know, building an
actual personal relationship with them.

Um, but again, I, that's how I bridge
the gap again, realizing that's not.

Not everybody in a job is
probably in a position to do that

without fear of losing their job.

So that's not my advice to go
just be willy-nilly about it.

.
Travis Bader: Yeah.

But hey, find, find what's true to you
and it makes it easier, essentially.

Yeah.

Um, for sure.

So another person says, is this something
that you see yourself doing in your

old age or is it a young person's game?

Zach Hanson: Um, I'm gonna take that
question as like hunting or, and trapping.

That's,

Travis Bader: that's
kind of how I figured it.

Yeah.

Or living in a remote community.

Zach Hanson: Yeah.

It's funny.

Um, we have some hardy, hardy
people in Atlanta, Idaho.

Um, when someone asked me that, there's
a woman there, a single woman, she's

a little hunchback, trouble walking.

Her name is Sandy.

She lives in our community by
herself with a blue healer dog.

She's 85 years old.

Lives by herself.

I mean, she relies on the community.

Like a lot of us will help like go
chop some wood, take it to her house.

But this woman is free.

She's the sweetest woman.

She's had an interesting life.

But you know, now kids, grandkids grown,
gone, husband gone and she is proud and

lives this off-grid tough lifestyle.

She's gotta build fires every day.

She's gotta cook for herself.

You know, she's out walking with
a little stick all the time.

She's snowshoeing in the winter.

Like that's my idol.

So the answer is yes.

Wow.

I sure hope so.

Like as long as I can physically do
it and you know, if my wife and I are

still around, you know, when we're
in that old of an age, I sure hope

that I can live that hardy lifestyle.

Cause I think she's
getting longevity from it.

Um, that's my observation.

Yeah.

And I hope I'm in the same boat.

God willing.

Very

Travis Bader: cool.

Um, next one last question
that we uh, cuz we.

Had a few in there, but we've
already kind of gone over some of

the questions that have been asked.

So I've just been, uh, calling
through has been going.

Uh, what, what conveniences do you miss,
if any, when living in a remote community?

Yeah.

Zach Hanson: Well, so we
have no grocery store.

We have no gas station, and
we have one bar restaurant.

And I love the owners.

They're, they're great, but you know,
the menu diversity is not very wide , you

know, it's like grilled cheeseburger.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Precisely.

And, you know, yeah, it's great cuz
we do our own meal prepping up there.

We eat a lot of the wild game, we do
all that, but boy do we miss sushi.

So like, there is, when we do come
down to like Boise, you know, we have

a hit list, you know, we're like doing
sushi one night, we're doing, you

know, takeout Chinese the other, and
you know, for that like couple days

or weeks, like by the time we leave
Boise, , you know, we are like sick.

We're like, we don't
want to eat out again.

. And we do it every time.

So we don't learn our lesson.

But uh, yeah.

Yeah, I think just like
some of the food, right.

You know, like I said, yeah, I could
see that we love eating wild game, all

that stuff, but man, we're still humans.

We're not like super athletes
now, like all performance based.

So we like our creature comfort.

So food is definitely
the, the hardest for us.

And you know, there's the electricity
issues right off grid, but you know,

we kinda lean into that because the
best thing, and I hope my employer's

not listening, but when you don't have
cell phone service and you know, your

generator's out of gas or whatever else,
and you know, the power goes out for a

few days, do you kinda get like a three
or four day like impromptu vacation?

And that can be stressful in some
situations if there's important stuff.

And that might force you
to drive down to the city.

But if you can lean into it a little
bit, even if it's for a day, like,

it's so nice to just like surprise
be jolted back into the 18 hundreds

and you're like, well, here we are.

Travis Bader: That sounds amazing.

I I do like it whenever, you know,
whenever, even in the urban area where I

live, um, power goes out, things are down.

I always embrace it.

I love it because it's
so hard to turn it off.

Otherwise it's, uh, well,
I gotta be there for work.

Well, I gotta do whatever it might be.

Now you gotta, you have an excuse and
may be really what I should be doing.

It's just making that excuse for myself.

Zach Hanson: Well, it's funny, I'm,
uh, I, I talk about it a little bit in

the book, but I'll expand briefly here.

Like, when I first got out there and
we'd have these frequent power issues

and the internet would go down, we
have no cell reception, so when the

power's out, you're disconnected.

Mm-hmm.

. So I had a little garment spot, and I
talk about in the book, like at first,

for the first several months, like every
time that would go out and I'd be in

a meeting or have meetings scheduled.

, I'd literally have stomach
pains because I felt like I was

missing out and all this stuff.

I'd get on my garment and I'd
like message my boss and they'd

be like, well, okay, you're off
grid, so why are you messaging me?

I'm like, . Um, but I learned
that I'm not that damn important.

Like, you know, we also mm-hmm bloat our
calendars and work a lot with meetings

that are also meant to feed our ego.

Like previously, my whole sense of
worth at my job was like, how many

calendar invites do I have in a day?

Because if people are wanting
to request meetings with me,

I must be producing something.

And that taught me that
that's not the case.

And like, it made me better
at asynchronous communication.

Like, you know, that meeting that
I had posted, I could probably do

that in an email or a Slack message.

And I started adopting that more and
I saw, you know, calendar invites fall

off my calendar and it was beautiful,
but it came at that pain of forced into

it and being extremely nervous that
I was gonna be fired at any minute.

Yeah.

Travis Bader: And you're saying
that you realized that you just

weren't as important as you, I guess,
thought you were still important

enough for the business to keep you
employed and your productivity level

increased, if I remember correctly,
you became better at your job.

I don't know.

There's a lot to be learned.

Yeah, there's a lot to be learned there.

Okay.

Here's my question to you, which
kind of segues back into this new

business that you're putting together?

All righty.

As a tech guy working in ai, working in
the tech industry, realizing that it's not

all bad, it's not all good, it's kind of
how we use it and how we wanna, uh, uh,

what we choose to direct our attention at.

How can we use technology to help
strengthen people's relationship

with the natural world?

Oh

Zach Hanson: man, this is a, a fun one.

So one of the cool things that's come
about the book, you know, come about my.

exposing what my life is
like on a professional

networking site like LinkedIn.

Mm.

Is that I've made a lot of cool
connections of people who ride

that line similar to me of like
technology and the outdoors.

So I've been able to converse with
like, I've become buddies with one of

the guys from Mountain Tough Fitness.

So people who don't know what Mountain
Tough is, you know, it's an application.

They do a lot of great workouts that
are geared towards back country hunting.

It's amazing.

Um, it got me ready for my elk hunts.

That's an opportunity in the outdoor
space to implement technology.

The guys that go wild in Kentucky,
it's a social media application all

about hunting, outdoors, trapping,
hiking, um, another cool application.

It's like Instagram for the
outdoor space, essentially.

Mm-hmm.

, um, you know, there's a lot.

things, even from a data science
perspective, which is more MySpace, the,

the C E O of Hunt score, uh, you know,
where you can use their application

to start to figure out hunting units
that have like higher percentage,

you know, opportunities, um, for
out-of-state hunters or in-state hunters.

Ah, really cool.

Yeah, it's awesome.

Um, so there are these things that are
coming up and you know, for me, being a

tech guy, having gone through some guided
hunts myself and saw the, uh, the gap

in customer management, I've worked with
three buddies and we are launching the

outfitter.guide, www.theoutfitter.guide,
uh, in February at the Western HUN Expo.

So we'll have a booth down there.

We somehow magically were
able to get into that.

That was a lot of luck and stars aligning,
um, . But essentially it's gonna be a

business or a B2 B2C company where we will
be selling our software to outfitters.

Outfitters will sign up with
us and they can kind of, you

know, onboard their hunters
seamlessly, let 'em sign contracts.

We can take over the payments
digitally so you're not sending a

check to some PO box in Arizona.

Mm-hmm.

And you know, from that time that you
sign up, then we as the outfitter guy,

take over the customer management.

So you're not gonna be dealing necessarily
directly with the outfitter unless

you need to, but we're gonna be taking
that gap period from the time you sign

up to the time you're in the field
preparing you, which means we'll be

sending you notifications saying, Hey,
you know, John, you're in South Carolina

at sea level, you're about to hunt
doll sheep in Alaska at 11,000 feet.

Have you done your lunges?

No.

Well, here's a discount code or a
free year of Mountain tough fitness.

Get to it.

You know, have you zeroed your rifle?

You know, well, you know, according
to your location there's four rifle

ranges around you, or here's a
discount code for a long range course.

You know, doing that along the
way so you're not questioning and

when you're going on a hunt that
already has a low probability.

chance of success, we're
gonna increase that.

At least that's our hypothesis.

So that way when you do get out
in the field, you're not worried

about if you're gonna get fed.

And if you need to pack more cliff
bars, you'll know that upfront easily.

And you're gonna be most prepared and
you're gonna feel better about this

large money investment you're making
along the way as well, which hopefully

will give outfitters more repeat
customers, give them other opportunities

to monetize as well so they can up and
build their own businesses in a more,

you know, deliberate fashion as well.

So that's it in a nutshell.

But yeah, technology and outdoors,
there's a lot of opportunity here

and a lot more younger folks like me
who have tech experience getting into

the space, I imagine and expect to
see of some more really cool things.

Were the two things, you
know, meld together in a way

that's not too obtrusive.

Travis Bader: Zach, you're one smart dude.

I like that.

Um, is there anything that, We've
been talking for a bit now, but is

there anything that we haven't talked
about that you feel we should before

we kind of wrap things up here?

Zach Hanson: No, I don't think so.

I think we've covered quite
a bit, which is awesome.

Um, yeah, yeah, it, it
is been a blast, Travis.

I've really enjoyed getting to chat and
talk, you know, a little bit more in depth

about some of the, the underlying currents
of the book and or society or at large.

So I hope a lot of people
take something away from it.

Travis Bader: Zach, thank you very
much for being on the podcast.