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What started as an exploration of the devil in their show, The Exorcist Minute, has grown into something much greater. Find all the original episodes of the show and more right here in The Devil's Details with Lester Ryan Clark and Kynan Dias.
Coming up on the Devil's Details, Krampus. Deck the halls with him. Is it bows or or balls of Holly?
Kynan Dias:Holly's balls. Holly's balls. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:I always heard bows, but I've I've I've, like, seen people when they when they, like, illustrate it or have it in movies. It's, like, it's balls of holly. How do you make balls
Kynan Dias:of No. It's bows. Like, when the bow when the bow breaks.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. Yes. It's
Kynan Dias:it's a little branch a branchy thing. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Not when the balls break, the cradle will fall. No. No.
Lester Ryan Clark:That's another story.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. On the first day of Krampus knocked, Krampus gave to me the beating of a lifetime. It was so good. We only needed one Krampusnacht, very efficient, very German.
Kynan Dias:And we never spoke of it again.
Lester Ryan Clark:And we never spoke of it again. And and to help us forget, we we drank at five years at funf years old. Yeah. Everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Devil's Details, a show where we dig up, decipher, dissect, deconstruct the many forms of the devil. One of my names is Lester Ryan Clark.
Kynan Dias:And I sometimes go by Keenan Diaz.
Lester Ryan Clark:And we're just two lost but jolly souls hitching an open sleigh ride down the highway to hell. Mhmm. And folks, we're really, really excited because today we get to talk about Krampus, the Christmas Devil. We're taking a break in between Goethe's Faust parts one and two to talk about our good buddy Krampus. The Krampus?
Lester Ryan Clark:I don't know. German articles are weird.
Kynan Dias:Die Krampus. Die.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes. That's German for the Krampus. The. Right? But yes, folks, in essence, we have taken a break on talking about one famous German devil to talk about another famous German devil.
Lester Ryan Clark:Why is it Germans have so many devils? I don't know. But I love it. I think they do
Kynan Dias:a really good job of exporting devilhood around the world.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Right? Our greatest export is chocolate. Devils. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Guilt. That's right. Yeah. Generational guilt. And you have you have milk generational guilt and dark generational guilt.
Kynan Dias:You know, they invented a new kind of chocolate about ten years ago?
Lester Ryan Clark:Really?
Kynan Dias:Like, I am I mean,
Lester Ryan Clark:like, like That was ten years ago. Thought that's what you were doing.
Kynan Dias:No. No. I but I mean, like, categories of chocolate. So milk, dark, white. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Uh-huh. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:And I
Lester Ryan Clark:forgot about that one. No.
Kynan Dias:Pink.
Lester Ryan Clark:Pink? Mhmm. Yeah. Like like strawberry chocolate or just
Kynan Dias:It is is it strawberry? What makes it pink? Jeez. I I didn't do any research about this so far. I spouted my mouth on the.
Kynan Dias:It says it is berry flavored. Okay. I don't know why they're being so vague here about what kind of berry is.
Lester Ryan Clark:Berry failed chocolate. That's how it gets its pink color. It could be a strawberry. It could be a poison berry. We don't know.
Kynan Dias:We will tell you. We won't tell you. Stop asking. We won't tell you.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes. But as you eat it, we will sit across the table from you, and we will tent our fingers, and we will we will say, good. Good.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Anyway, so they invented a new kind of a new a new form of chocolate. It's ruby ruby chocolate or pink chocolate.
Lester Ryan Clark:Ruby chocolate. I like that. Okay.
Kynan Dias:It's made of rubies.
Lester Ryan Clark:Rubies. Yes. Okay. Alright. And this is you're you're talking about this is the Germans who have
Kynan Dias:done No. No. The Swiss, the Belgians.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, the Swiss. Oh, okay. Right? It's it's in that area, that Alpine area. Right.
Kynan Dias:Right. Kind You know, where cocoa pods are grown.
Lester Ryan Clark:Sure. Yes. Right? There's that trend where where kids are are eating cocoa pods and it's, know, kind of dangerous, but
Kynan Dias:also delicious. That's right. They can't stop it. Yeah. Well, anyways, we're talking about another famous German export.
Kynan Dias:Yes. Krampus.
Lester Ryan Clark:Krampus. Yeah. So, folks, we're talking about Krampus. This is our free episode where we talk about the lore of Krampus. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:And if you remember, you'll get to hear us talk about the 2015 Michael Dougherty film Krampus. So look out for that in a couple of days as well. Yeah. But but, Keenan, before we begin, I wanna know kinda similar to the question I asked you in our very first Devil episode about when and how you learned about the Devil, how did you come to know about Krampus? Do you remember first hearing about him, or was he like always a thing?
Kynan Dias:He was not always a thing to me. I did not learn about Krampus until the Michael Dougherty 2015 film.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh my goodness.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. And I you know, there was a poster, and it's got Krampus' long claw over a snow globe, I believe, if remember right. And I was like, what what is this Krampus reference? Oh, you don't know what Krampus is? Like, was an idiot.
Kynan Dias:You you've never heard of Krampus? Like, no.
Lester Ryan Clark:I've never heard of Krampus. Kirby doesn't know what Krampus is.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Do they know it's Krampus after after all? All?
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So So I I know know So this this is is Krampus.
Lester Ryan Clark:Krampus.
Kynan Dias:I I had never heard of it, and then and then I was surprised, oh, it's a whole it's a whole folkloric tradition that that I that did not get transferred, at least, to my brain in Mhmm. Growing up in Christmas in Hawaii Mhmm. Which we call mele kalikimaka. Oh. Yes.
Kynan Dias:It's a thing to say on a Hawaiian Christmas day. Oh. It's the island greeting that we send to you from the land where palm trees sway.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, I love that. That's so nice.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. So Krampus did not make his way to Hawaii. Yeah. That that would be the in the planned but never completed sequel. Krampus goes Hawaiian.
Kynan Dias:Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. With Winona Ryder and, you know, and all those people. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Right. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:But not Jeffrey Jones.
Kynan Dias:Not Jeffrey Jones.
Lester Ryan Clark:People are like, what? What is
Kynan Dias:But, anyways, yeah, that was not part of my understanding of Christmas at all. And then Wow. Yeah. Then to look it up
Lester Ryan Clark:and go,
Kynan Dias:oh, this is a big deal. Some people love Krampus,
Lester Ryan Clark:and
Kynan Dias:it's as it's as big of a part of their Christmas experience as Santa for some people.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. Right. It's not like I mean, I think I think now he's kind of like, ironically, it's a kind of like counterculture thing, but like, no. He is he is a he is a beloved part of Mhmm. Of Christmas or or the Christmas season thereabouts in in many places in the world.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. Yeah. But, yeah, Kian, don't feel too bad about not knowing about him until later. Okay. Folks, by this point, I think you know me.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? If if this is your first episode, hi. I'm I'm Lester. Was raised Catholic. And as sort of a byproduct, I developed, I'm gonna say, a healthy fascination with the devil.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. Sure. I'm I'm just gonna say that. I don't I don't think that's that's what my parents or the or the priests or the the Sunday school teachers intended to happen, but whoopsie.
Lester Ryan Clark:And and now I have a podcast. And and you would think, listeners, that I knew about Krampus, the Christmas Devil, as a wee little cherub. You know, the kid who wore his Halloween costume year round knows about Krampus, the Christmas Devil. Probably invented him. But listeners, you would be wrong.
Lester Ryan Clark:I did not know about Krampus until much later, and I'm finding that that's kind of true for most folks in The US. Mhmm. I think it it might have been in the twenty tens. This is after I had left and come back from living in Japan and Hong Kong because I got back in 2011. I know I didn't know about him while I was overseas because that would have gone into my Christmas lesson planning.
Lester Ryan Clark:And and I know I didn't know about him as a kid because that would have been like all I talked about.
Kynan Dias:Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:In fact, I don't yeah. I don't think Krampus was a thing for a lot of American kids growing up in the eighties and nineties. Maybe maybe some grandparents were, like, you know, passing the story along, like like in our movie, or maybe they just kept it all inside also like our movie. Right? German grandparents, like, I'm I'm keeping everything else inside.
Lester Ryan Clark:Might as well just add this to the list.
Kynan Dias:Yeah, I do. Our some of our cousins, I don't know how you say like, not cousins by birth, are very close cousins. Dad is like their their godfather and stuff. But they had a German grandmother named named Ohmi. Oh, hi.
Kynan Dias:Ohmi. Yeah. I just can't imagine her. She's like the nicest person I know talking about, and then and then the Devil comes to the door. And he looks into your soul and he judges you.
Kynan Dias:I just can't imagine it. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:But not you, little Hans. You you get you get some you get some some some and and and yeah. But but your sister's all. But, Keenan, how crazy is it that Krampus wasn't around during the golden age of Christmas specials in, like, the sixties and the seventies. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes. All those rank and bass specials like Rudolph and Frosty, you know, and with syndication, right, those ran all through the eighties and the nineties, and they're still going on. Right? Like, they are a piece of history, but Krampus is missing from that. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Because, like, your average American kid just didn't know about him back then. Right. But he would have fit perfectly in that lineup of Christmas villains they essentially had to, like, create as foils to, you know, Rudolph and Frosty and the rest. Right? You had Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Snowmizer and Heatmizer. Mhmm. Probably the best, I think. Yeah. Then you had the winter warlock.
Lester Ryan Clark:Not sure how they got away with that. You had winter bolt from the the one Christmas in July special. Right? It's like, yes, listeners, I know all of them. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:But there was no Krampus. Mhmm. Right? I had I had a Krampus shaped hole in in my two sizes too small heart. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:There's another one. Right? We got we got the Grinch. We got all of those. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:But, like, doctor Seuss and Rankin Bass were sleeping on this ready made, ready to go, out of the box Christmas villain. Right? There's there's no herky jerky stop motion Krampus with the song about, like, wanting to be good, but only knowing how to be bad. Right? And then he saves Christmas and everyone's like, yay.
Lester Ryan Clark:We love you, Krampus. Right? And then Santa sees an opportunity here. He he sidles up and he's like, listen. I I have an image to uphold.
Lester Ryan Clark:I I need to keep my hands clean. But some of these little shits need more than just
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Absolutely. Just coal. Right? Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:What I'm saying is and he and he puts a hand on Krampus' shoulders like, Krampus with your sticks of birch, will you do my dirty work? And Krampus is like, well, that doesn't exactly rhyme, but
Kynan Dias:Right. Right. I was gonna say, because it with the with with the villains in the specials, it's like they have songs of their own, right, like you're saying. I'm mister Snowmiser. Right?
Kynan Dias:And so Krampus would my name is Krampus. I don't have time to sing. Let's go. We have we have little children to punish.
Lester Ryan Clark:These trains will be running on time. Or I am not the Christmas Devil.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. But that's a really good point. Yeah. He would have been very popular, and he's becoming popular now. You see Krampus everywhere Mhmm.
Kynan Dias:With merchandise, etcetera. There there was a game I used to play called Town of Salem, which is like mafia, but but with Salem witchcraft trial.
Lester Ryan Clark:I remember that. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. And my skin, I think I spent real money on it was to play as Krampus.
Lester Ryan Clark:Really? Oh, I didn't even know about that you could be Krampus in there. Oh, yeah. You
Kynan Dias:pay him $5 or whatever it was.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, that's it. You know, that's, you know, like in in in, you know, in replacement for, you know, as a squeeze in the milk, Krampus wants money. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:But So then, you know, so then you got, you know, Krampus and Mhmm. And and and Santa, you know, teaming up. Right? That's that's kinda how it goes. Okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:I guess we gotta, like, officially introduce our subject here. So, yes, folks. Krampus, if you don't know, is probably most popular as a type of people are calling him like an anti Santa.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. I think that's a useful way to start thinking about him. But then when you when you when you read more about the the traditions, that's not quite it.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. It's it's a it's a good jumping off point, I think. Mhmm. Yeah. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:So he's a horned demonic creature from Alpine folklore who punishes bad children during the Christmas season. While Saint Nicholas rewards good children with gifts, Krampus deals with the troublemakers by whipping them with specifically birch rods, or he calls them a rutin bundles Mhmm. Or stuffing them in his sack Mhmm. Or according to some tales, dragging them to hell. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Or eating them, I think, is is one other option.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Sometimes he has a little basket. Yeah. Because he doesn't know or I don't know. Maybe he doesn't want the kids to know what he's doing.
Kynan Dias:He's gonna take them away, so he keeps the basket on his back like a like a reverse fanny pack.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes. Right.
Kynan Dias:He he stores the kids in there for later. And the the entire time I'm sure they're negotiating. Right? Like, please, I'll be good. I'll be good.
Kynan Dias:And I bet he likes that part of the job the most.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, that's the best. He's just he's calling out, right, like, as he's kind of, like, hopping along from, you know Mhmm. From from rock to rock, right, you know, through the woods. He's like he's like, are you are you Cossack by any chance? Because we're oh, that's what's going over a bumpy oh, no.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. And his depictions changed a lot, not not just only over time, but in different parts of the German speaking world. Yes. Yeah. And then sometimes
Lester Ryan Clark:Lots of lots different looks and lots of different names
Kynan Dias:as well. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And sometimes he has hooves and and, yeah, the implication is he could jump really far. But sometimes I think the the most of the traditional depictions are he has one goat hoof and one human foot.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, okay. That's new to me.
Kynan Dias:Oh, yeah. You could see it on some of those Krampus Codden that that we'll talk about later.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:The Krampus Codden. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:It's I've I've seen him described in more than one place as a half goat, demon, which I have never considered that combination. Because it's like, if it's a half goat, like like, I I don't know. Like, I feel like just like a half demon is just like a demon, you know?
Kynan Dias:Right. Once you have a little bit of demon in you, you're full
Lester Ryan Clark:Then you're just demon. Right?
Kynan Dias:Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like a half goat, half demon. Like, I sorry sorry to, like, like, bring this to a halt, guys, but, like, it's like, what is the like like, if if it's if it's a demonic goat creature. Right? Like, if it's if it's I I I like, if it's a half goat, half man demon Mhmm. Then I'm just like, okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:I get it. Right? Like like, it's a half goat, half man demon. Right? But if it's a half goat, half demon, then I I don't know.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like, which which part is the horns? You know? Are all demons half goat, half demon? You know what I mean?
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Okay. Well, I I don't know which part I would want to be replaced by a goat.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Kynan Dias:Maybe none of them. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:That's what I'm thinking. Mhmm. Give me some horns. I think I could I could, you know, make them work. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:But, yeah, the the point of of bringing up the the variations is that, yeah, there's not like a set standard of Krampus because he's folk he's folktale. Right? Yes. And even like Santa Claus, we have to talk about a lot in the show just to sort of get this Krampus going. Like, he was not standardized until the twentieth century, really.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. Yes. So it's it's this weird amalgamation of, like, it's it's old, but it's not as old as you think. And there's lots of variations, and we didn't get the Coca Cola Krampus
Kynan Dias:Right. Exactly.
Lester Ryan Clark:Until until recently. Yeah. Which is weird to think, you know, like, that's the whole Coca Cola. Like, the Santa that you're thinking of, that's that's Coca Cola. And before that, Santa looked a little bit different.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. And there's a bunch of different
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Oh, when you put this yeah.
Kynan Dias:Put this in the chat here. Yeah. So he has, yeah, one hoof and one foot.
Lester Ryan Clark:That is. Oh, yeah. He does have one hoof and one foot. Right? Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:And you can tell which which and he's and he's stuffing, I think it's a little boy, into his his basket. And and meanwhile, his sister is just happy with her present. She's fine.
Kynan Dias:The little boy sister, not the Minotaur's
Lester Ryan Clark:sister. Yes. Right. Right.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. The different sister.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. Right. Right. She's she's just like she's like, you you, you know, you get what you get, Hans, and, you know, I'm just going to play with my little basket of things here.
Kynan Dias:Right. Sugarplums, I presume.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. It looks like sugarplums. Yeah. Yeah. She's fine.
Lester Ryan Clark:She's, you know, she's never gonna see her brother again. That's okay. He was a little shit. Right. But but okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. So the earliest recorded mentions of Krampus date back to now one source is telling me pre Christian Alpine traditions. Though he really started appearing in written records around the sixteen hundreds. Okay. However, other sources are saying that the character we know today is likely a mashup of several ancient beings and traditions.
Lester Ryan Clark:I'm gonna go into this a little bit later, but we this this really is as complex and as kind of like unsolved mystery as the Devil because we have two kind of like camps of of Krampus being like really old and not so old. And we're yeah. We're gonna get into But like one is saying like like pre Christian, like pagan roots and the other is saying no.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. But we'll we'll we'll get into that. Firstly, his name we think derives from the old high German Krampen meaning claw. There's a Santa Claus pun in there somewhere.
Kynan Dias:Oh, the Marx Brothers, right? Like you need to sign the Sandy Claus. Oh, you can't fool There's no such thing as a Sandy Claus.
Lester Ryan Clark:There we go. Right? And then and then Harpo falls off the roof and Groucho picks up a card, and now he has to not speak for the rest of the thing. Yeah. But okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:Actually, I'm reading that the name Krampus used to refer to a category of creatures rather than a single character. And if you look, there's actually quite a lot of wintery creatures from this region, both good and bad. You got, Frau Pruchte, the Christmas witch. If you just do a quick Google image search of that. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:She looks really cool. People are decorating their trees like.
Kynan Dias:Oh. Right? She's she's bad news.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. No. I like I like her. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:And and then you got and and and you know what she does? She slices open bad children's bellies and stuffs them with straw.
Kynan Dias:What's this why why stuff them with with anything but the straw? I
Lester Ryan Clark:mean, I don't know. It's it's probably the most uncomfortable thing that you can stuff. You don't want a pillow full of straw.
Kynan Dias:Hot coals if I was a dehumper. You know?
Lester Ryan Clark:She's not a monster, Ken. That's what Krampus would do, but he's not he's not in the belly slicing business.
Kynan Dias:Right. Okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. Alright.
Kynan Dias:Well, she looks like bad news, though. I Yeah. Haven't heard of her. Okay. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. You got you got I I'm gonna try to pronounce this, this is Welsh. Marie Llyd, l w y d.
Kynan Dias:Oh, I like her.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah, this is a Welsh horse skull that goes caroling.
Kynan Dias:Yeah, yeah, she looks fun.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Right. Then you got gryla, g r y l a, an Icelandic ogress who eats naughty children. Mhmm. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Or, Keenan, you got the yule cat of Iceland, Iceland. Who eats people who don't get new clothes for Christmas.
Kynan Dias:Yes. I have heard of the Yule Cat of Iceland. Yeah. I think I think it's that they that the Yule Cat eats you if you don't use the clothes you do get for Christmas.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, okay.
Kynan Dias:Like, you know, you're like, oh, I wish I got toys, you know, I got but I got useful stuff. And then the Yule Cat's like, well, I'm gonna eat you.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, okay. So you're not you're not like you're you're not appreciative of those socks or that underwear
Kynan Dias:that think you that's what it is. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. It's like, oh, you you ungrateful little shit. Right.
Kynan Dias:Now you're in a cat's belly.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. What do think of that?
Kynan Dias:With straw and then Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, I love this. And yeah. So you got these these these winter figures. And then also, like, you got companions of Saint Nicholas who seem to look and act closer to Krampus. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Might even be just a name for Krampus regionally. You got Klau Bauf. Right? That's k l a u b a u F F. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:And I think that might just be like a Krampus. Right? Like we're talking about like Krampus is like a category.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. That looks like Krampus to me.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Right? Then you got Pelseboc. I love that right? P e l z e b o c k.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? Pelseboc.
Kynan Dias:Well that looks like Krampus to me.
Lester Ryan Clark:That looks like Krampus. Right. And then you well you know you got Bellsebub. Right. It's like literally just b a or b e l l zebub.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? S z or z e b u b. Right? So this is our, you
Kynan Dias:know That's getting neat. That just keeps auto correcting me.
Lester Ryan Clark:To Beelzebub. Yeah. But I hate but I love these I love these last two. Right? Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:You got Rumpelklas and Hans Muff.
Kynan Dias:Alright. Rumpelklas looks more like kinda more mischievous than
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm.
Kynan Dias:Than like like like your devil in the footy pajamas than
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, okay.
Kynan Dias:Like a demon.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. Right. He looks he looks like if if if John Lovitz, like, fell into some ink or something.
Kynan Dias:Right. Oh, and Hans Moff, he looks like bad news. He's kind of in between those two, but he looks Yeah. More like yeah. Scary.
Kynan Dias:He looks like he looks like a person, a humanoid, but but scary.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And then you got, right, Bellschnickel. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Which if you've seen The Office, there was a whole thing on that. Right? One of the characters dresses up as him for Christmas and and whacks everybody with birch branches. Right? He's he's like the the he's like he's like a human who's cosplaying as Krampus, his Belgian.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. He looks like kind of like a like a hobo. I don't what they would call that in Germany, but like a a rogue, like a traveling, you know, there's a word for it, Devil.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like a like a just just kind of like a person on the road.
Kynan Dias:A vagabond.
Lester Ryan Clark:A vagabond. Yeah. There would
Kynan Dias:be Yes. A vagabond. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. A rapscallion. Right. I mean, like, there's some of these pictures. It looks like Santa or father Christmas just doing both jobs.
Kynan Dias:Right. Right. Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. Right. Like, he's like, like, I'm I'm like, got a gift in one hand, and then I got the Birch branch in the other hand. Right?
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Well, that that is my point about why I don't think that he's quite the anti Santa because I think that they are two sides of the same coin.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes. I think so as well.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. That's why that's why I don't think that's quite complete.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. And I think, know, just like mean, this is this is our, like, creation of the devil in microcosm. It's like we gotta have Yeah. Yeah. Somebody.
Lester Ryan Clark:We gotta have a isn't that called like a cat's paw?
Kynan Dias:Like Oh, that whip? Yeah. Uh-huh.
Lester Ryan Clark:No. No. No. No. I mean With
Kynan Dias:a little
Lester Ryan Clark:No. That's the cat of nine tails.
Kynan Dias:Oh, yeah. What's a cat's paw?
Lester Ryan Clark:I think I think a cat's paw isn't that an expression for, like, it's a person who does the dirty work for you so that your hands are are clean?
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Okay. I haven't heard that before. That that makes a lot of sense. And that's what I was reading a lot, like, as Saint Nicholas is evolving into Santa Claus.
Kynan Dias:And Saint Nicholas is not just, the patron saint of of children anymore. He's now this gift giver and, like, this judger of children's souls. Right? Mhmm. That, like well, he's still a saint.
Kynan Dias:Right? Before he's Santa Claus, he's still a saint. Right. And so for him to punish is completely counter to the what the idea of a saint is. Right.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. So we need someone else to do that that work for him.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. The cat's paw. Yeah. So we got yeah. So we got we got Krampus, we got the Yule Cat, we got, you know, Belshnickle and Hans Moff.
Lester Ryan Clark:I just love it. But yeah. And and all of these were like either companions to Saint Nicholas, just like Krampus, or they were like they were they were doing both jobs, I think.
Kynan Dias:Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Okay. Until it evolved. Right? But we're here to talk about the Krampus, Krampus Krampus. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:The one that we know today. But we still gotta go back a little bit. Mhmm. So Krampus might have emerged from Alpine paganism. I say might because I've heard some historians say yes and others say no.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. But his appearance, you know, the horns, the hooves, suggests that he might have evolved alongside various, like, horned nature spirits and wild men figures from, you know, Germanic and Nordic mythology. Mhmm. Or or he came about after the Devil adopted that look. Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Alright. So doctor Emily Zarca says, quote, there is evidence of performances that link the Krampus to Satan in Jesuit theater, and the monster frequently appears in Saint Nicholas plays. So it is possible that the beast was constructed to represent the opposite of divinity. Mhmm. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:So I guess, you know, like, that's the question. Are the devil horns devil horns, or are they like pan horns? Right. Mhmm. Because because, you know, devil horns are pan horns, but, like, you know what I mean.
Kynan Dias:Right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Scholars say he either got his look from, you know, the older nature spirits, right, which means Krampus is also really old or he got it from the modern Devil, right, who got it from the older nature spirits. Right. But that would mean Krampus is actually fairly new. I think one point that proves that is that at first, he only had horns in the places with high Catholic populations.
Kynan Dias:Uh-huh. Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:And then other Krampuses there were other Krampuses, but they didn't have horns, which means he couldn't have evolved from like a horned, you know, like pan type spirit. Right? Because then all of them would have had horns. Right? Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:But then some scholars connect him to the sons of Hel, Loki's daughter from Norse mythology. So, like, he would be, like, Loki's grandchild. Right?
Kynan Dias:Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. I was really excited when I heard this. Right? Although, again, right, it might be debunked now.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. That's that's the one that I saw. I go to the demonic paradise fandom Wikia, but they I like Wikias because anybody can put things in there in the video because, like so that's great because it's like, oh, this this bits of minutia, right, that I wouldn't think about or that people on Wikipedia don't think are are, like, notable enough. But
Lester Ryan Clark:those kinda websites also have, like, his stats and his fighting powers and
Kynan Dias:stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But so this yeah.
Kynan Dias:This doesn't have a citation. So it also says that hell is is Krampus' mother and Balder is his father. And then when I but then when I try to find out, well, where's that coming from? I I don't I don't see anything. So I don't know who wrote that there.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. So okay. Yeah. But You know,
Kynan Dias:cool if true. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. Yes. Right. Which is which is basically how we have all the Devil lore anyway. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. So the question is, right, did Krampus exist before Christmas or like, you know, does he have pagan roots? Or was he made specifically as a devilish companion to Saint Nicholas? Right? What do you think, Socrates?
Kynan Dias:You're both right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Right? But, yeah, that that is that's part of the trouble because we we also think of, like, Christmas as this immutable thing across history that the Christ was born and that was Christmas. But that's not the case. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:And we think we'd like we woke up, you know, on December 25 and we're like, well, you know, it's like it just it just happened overnight. Right?
Kynan Dias:Right. Right. Right. So people weren't celebrating Christmas for hundreds of years afterwards, even when they did know about the Christmas as part of the entire, like, life of Jesus, it wasn't the same type of holiday, like,
Lester Ryan Clark:as Easter was. Mhmm. Then actually, like, was was going away, if I remember correctly, around Charles Dickens writing the Christmas Carol, and and they attribute that to I mean, they call him the man who invented Christmas. Like, all of this all of this stuff that you think of, like, you know, Christmas, even though it's it's not actually in the the the story, like, there's no Christmas tree in the story. But, like, like, you can you can you can thank Charles Dickens and, you know, Ebenezer Scrooge and and the three ghosts for, like, the the the Christmas boom that happened.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. And I believe that so we get that we get in America our traditions from England about Christmas. And if I'm remembering correctly, like that was during a time when when England and Germany were particularly close. And so they were bringing over German German folklore to Right. To their Christmas celebrations.
Kynan Dias:That's why we have a Christmas tree outside and even gift giving Uh-huh. Being connected to Saturnalia, like like just speak so we we kind of retconned and been like, okay, the Magi gave Christ a a Christmas gift. Mhmm. So that's why we give Christmas gifts, but it's not really that. It's that we give Christmas gifts because the because of pagan Chris gift giving around Right.
Kynan Dias:Around Saturnalia or around winter the solstice.
Lester Ryan Clark:The winter solstice. Yeah. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. So then but then we we just accept all those parts that we like about Christmas, and we take them in into our culture. And then so then yeah. So then that all changes, World War one. The like, the the English family's name was, and they changed their name to Windsor, right, to be more English and less German.
Kynan Dias:Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:So, like Windsor.
Kynan Dias:Yes. Yes. Yes. So we just forget that, like, we have all of this stuff that's really German culture that's getting taken from England and then over to America.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, I think I mean, like, that's, you know, I mean, like, if you go far back enough, you know, it's like that's how that's how I'm I'm assuming like even the, you know, Saturnalia and the winter solstice and and and all of those holidays, it's like, yeah, was like we're gonna take from this place, we're gonna take from this place, we're gonna, you know, we're just gonna, you know, that's that's how holidays, that's how things happen.
Kynan Dias:Right? Right. Or Yule, which is not
Lester Ryan Clark:Yule. Yes.
Kynan Dias:A Christian holiday originally.
Lester Ryan Clark:It's very Viking.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Yeah. And that it was adapted by the Christians and and say, this is about the same time of year. And then some people's interpretation is like, we're gonna take away the power of the pagan religions and like, hey, maybe you like, you are holding on to your pagan traditions because you like these holidays, so we'll just make them Christian holidays and you have less reasons to stick around paganism.
Lester Ryan Clark:And I'm seeing a lot of sources like comparing Santa Claus or, you know, Father Christmas, like flying through the sky to Odin. Right? Yeah. You know, wearing you know, fly flying on an eight legged horse, sleepwear. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Uh-huh. You know, and and and just kind of like visiting, you know, people like during the night and stuff. Right. Yeah. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. So, you know, it all comes from somewhere. You know, it's like Mhmm. It matters it matters what we do with it right now. That was that's that's not funny.
Lester Ryan Clark:It's it's supposed to be profound. It's I'm being serious right now.
Kynan Dias:Oh, good. Good. Good.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah.
Kynan Dias:I thought you were doing your Christmas Carol. This is why I got thrown off. I'm sorry.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, no. No. No. He says little. He says
Kynan Dias:to you very little.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, yeah. Oh, dang. I should I should have done that. Yeah. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. We'll do we'll we'll we'll gush about Christmas Carol at some point. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Okay. Alright.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. We'll we'll have a whole podcast about it. But yeah. Okay. So the the question about, like, Krampus' origins.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? Mhmm. Was it old old or was it, like, just old? Right. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:And actually, doctor Zarca weighs in again here. She says, quote, Claims that Krampus is derived from pagan traditions intending to drive away winter and evil spirits in an ancient fertility rite are unfounded. In yeah. In reality, there is no evidence for this. Scholars found that the false pagan origin story of Krampus was invented in the early twentieth century by socialist folklorists attempting to cast Christianity as a practice that sullied ancient Nordic customs.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. The Nazi party reinforced this false claim, publishing a photo essay portraying the Krampus as an ancient custom banned for its pagan roots. In reality, Krampus nights weren't recorded until 1582 in the Bavarian town of Diesen.
Kynan Dias:That's pretty ancient. I mean, to me, that sounds old, but, yeah, that's medieval, I suppose. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. Yeah. And that's, you know, that's that's what we mean. It's it's like, okay. How old is this?
Lester Ryan Clark:Is this ancient? Is this old? Is this medieval? Is this renaissance sicle? Yeah.
Kynan Dias:But both the the Nazis and their socialist enemies are Mhmm. Are talking about how this this German national pride of Krampus has been suppressed somewhere Yes. By by somebody, by the Christians or by the socialists. That's not to argue against. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. But so, again, we're talking about, yeah, the South Of Germany where the Alps are and the Black Forest, and so that's where these Krampus type folklores are coming from.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes. But actually, might be a moot point because, like, even Christmas was a little bit pagony back then. Think we've alluded to. I mean, know, Krampus isn't is just one example, but you also had the Pruchten. Oh, scary.
Lester Ryan Clark:Which you know we talked about Frau Pochter, right? And she was the Christmas witch, but you also had like her kind of like little helpers and there were there were two types. There were the Schone Pochten, right? Which is like the beautiful Pochten and the ugly person.
Kynan Dias:Beautiful language. Yes.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? Just rolls off your tongue, right? But they are but those those those ugly person are, closely related to the Krampus. And if you if you if you Google that, you're like if you, you Google s c h I a c h p e r c h t E N. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:That's three c h's here.
Kynan Dias:Oh, this is a this is a creepy guy. Yeah? It looks like a skinny Krampus.
Lester Ryan Clark:Ah, okay. Mhmm. So they're saying that's one place that the that the Krampus could have evolved from.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Looks like it.
Lester Ryan Clark:Alright. So these these were the followers of a goddess called Perthta, who maybe that's where Frau Perthta came from, the Christmas witch. Right? But apparently, this Perthta, she led the wild hunt during the twelve days of Christmas. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:So again, like, keep on like, it's like it's like, oh, like a goddess or a witch or a devil during Christmas time that's unheard of. No. It's not. Right. It's absolutely not.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like like the the kind of whitewashing of Christmas now where it's like it's only about Jesus and you have Santa there for some reason Mhmm. Is is fairly new. Right? You would have a you would have in in Italy, you had La Bafanya. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:The Christmas witch. Right?
Kynan Dias:Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Or you would have, like we said, like the Yule Cat. Right? Or Han's Muff. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Or the Krampus. Right? Like, had you had all of these kind of, like, like mythical creatures who were participating in the Christmas story, which I really like. And and a lot of it just kind of like merged together into the Krampus that we know today. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? Now the connection between Krampus and Saint Nicholas probably yeah. Now now we're getting into like this this dynamic duo. Right? Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:So probably developed during the seventeenth century as Christianity spread through Alpine regions. Rather than completely eliminating, like you were talking about, Keenan, rather than eliminating these traditions, the church often kind of like absorbed them, right, which is how we we end up with this odd coupling of a saint and a demon working together.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. All of it is a little odd. It like, it makes it just feels natural because we live in the culture. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Where it's
Kynan Dias:like, okay. So Saint Nicholas, who's Santa Claus, you know, Saint Nicholas travels Saint Nicholas died in March.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes.
Kynan Dias:Right? And so, like, there's not a whole lot of other saints that we say, like, visit Earth in physical form and interact with us in some way.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. So so some some so anyways, March, yada yada yada, sixteen hundreds. Now Saint Nicholas comes to Earth on Saint Nicholas Day, right, and and does something and interacts with you. And Right. It's it's not just in heaven at the right hand of the father and you pray to him and pray to him for specific things that he has these these I don't know how they put it, but like areas of of power.
Kynan Dias:Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. The the these departments that he kind of like helps you in. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:He's the patron saint of this or the patron saint of that. Right?
Kynan Dias:So he he has that part of it, but then we also have this other story that he comes back to earth every year.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. And you don't have that with like Saint Saint Ignatius Loyola, or you don't have that with, you know, Saint Christopher Mhmm. Or or Saint Joan of Arc, or, you know, any like, they don't they don't come out, you know, Saint Joan of Arc doesn't come down and, like, you know, kick people's asses, you know.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. If you if you are a good girl, they'll come down and kick people's asses that you don't like.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Right. Like that doesn't happen. That'd be really cool actually. Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Saint Valentine doesn't, you know, come down and leave, you know, like chocolate or whatever. Know?
Kynan Dias:Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Saint Patrick doesn't I guess he got all the snakes out of Ireland.
Kynan Dias:He got all the snakes? That's a one time thing.
Lester Ryan Clark:I'm done? That's it. But no. Okay. That's that's a perfect example.
Lester Ryan Clark:I've I have heard I think it was an Irish comedian making this joke. But he was he was talking about specifically the Irish, and he's like, the Irish are the only people who are, like, so Catholic, but then also still believe in fairy folk.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. Yeah. That's a good point.
Lester Ryan Clark:And it's like that like, as soon as I heard that, I was like, oh, yeah. Right? This is like it's like this instance where both of those things are allowed to kind of, like, live in your head.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? And they don't they don't overlap. They don't clash. It's just like, yeah. Okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. It's like, you know, it's like it's like, you know, Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, and all the saints. And then also, you know, gotta gotta watch out for the for the for the pixies, gotta watch out for the for the leprechauns and all that stuff.
Kynan Dias:Right. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. So I like I think what I'm trying to say is that this kind of mixing of like like older folklore into the Christmas tradition is nothing new. Right.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Right. So we've had this we've had this forever. But actually, I don't think we mentioned yet. So guys, it's it actually isn't supposed to happen on Christmas.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. The feast of Saint Nicholas is, I believe, December 6. Right. Right? And so just like Walpurgisnacht and just like Halloween and just like all those other, like, you know, the eve of Saint George's Day in Dracula Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Krampusnacht is December 5.
Kynan Dias:Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? So it's the it's the eve before the feast of Saint Nicholas. Mhmm. And we're not even talking about, you know, the the Krampus Lauths yet, but there are like parades or even just like on on like a local level, there will be somebody who dresses up as Saint Nicholas and accompanying him will be like one or two Krampuses Mhmm. Who will go and visit, you know, kids' houses.
Lester Ryan Clark:And you can go on YouTube. It's like it's still happening in rural areas where, you know, some guy will dress up as Saint Nicholas and he will have the, like, bishop's crown and, you know, the holy robes and everything like that. So he won't look like Santa Claus. He'll look like Saint Nicholas, like as depicted in, you know, like pieces of art. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Like, he'll wear these saintly robes and he'll have like a little bishop's like crook, like little staff. Right? Yeah. Like a shepherd's crook. But you look at the these oh, these these really cute like YouTube videos of, like, a guy dressed up as Saint Nicholas and a guy dressed up as Krampus coming to houses and basically, Saint Nicholas will it it it's it's never it's never, like, mean spirited.
Lester Ryan Clark:The the Krampus never, like, like, gets out of control. He he actually kind of just kind of, like, hovers in the background Mhmm. While the guy dressed as Saint Nicholas kind of, like, you know, like, talks to, you know, the kid. And it's like, okay. Have you been good?
Lester Ryan Clark:You know, just, like, you know, just remember, just be nice to your mom and dad. Mhmm. And Mhmm. The Krampus is just kinda in the background just kind of, like, just looking at him. Sometimes the Krampus will be nice too.
Lester Ryan Clark:He'll be like he'll be like holding Saint Nicholas' sack. Right? And so it's like, okay. Time for presents. And no.
Lester Ryan Clark:No. I did I just heard that. No. That's not what I meant.
Kynan Dias:Right. Just don't mind me.
Lester Ryan Clark:That's an old tradition. No. No. He'll be he'll be like holding the gifts. Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:And so like when it's time for Saint Nicholas to give the gifts, he'll like kind of like present them.
Kynan Dias:Right? Yeah. And this this led me to find a whole bunch of other, you know, sidekicks of Santa Claus that I've never heard of before. So, you know, one of them is Krampus, some of them are are evil ish, some of them are more akin to yeah, like Batman and Robin. They're both on the good on the good side or, know, I I I don't know where Christmas elves came from, but this is kind of in that mode.
Kynan Dias:Like Santa is the main guy or Saint Nicholas is the main guy, but he has other people around as well.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. Yes. And you know, they range from kind of like scary to goofy to, you know, to like yeah. It's a kind of, you know, clownish, you know?
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Like Black Pete in The Netherlands. Yeah. I I didn't realize that. So like I'd know him for his controversy because he's a you know, in The Netherlands, they're primarily like overwhelmingly white and then there's this black face.
Lester Ryan Clark:Like overwhelmingly by population, but like also just by by whiteness. Oh, I thought you were gonna
Kynan Dias:say by height because they they are like the tallest No. No. The tallest people who have ever lived are now like
Lester Ryan Clark:No. It's like it's like you want like me. I like you know, my description is on, like, a like, a toothpaste tube. It's like, how would you describe Lester? Overwhelmingly white.
Kynan Dias:That's great.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. No. I dance for shit.
Kynan Dias:Oh, I bet you could. I bet you could. Trust in yourself. Dance like no one's watching, Lester. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:But no. I know I knew Black Pete. Schwatte.
Lester Ryan Clark:Schwatte. Schwatte.
Kynan Dias:Schwatte Pete. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm.
Kynan Dias:Because the Blackface controversy, I did not realize that he is a companion of Saint Nicholas. That's what his job is. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Because they they tried to they tried to save it a couple years ago and call him Sooty Pete.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, Sooty Pete? Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Then people are like, no.
Lester Ryan Clark:That is Yeah. When you when you do that, it kind of just makes it even worse. Know? It's like, are you saying? What are you saying?
Lester Ryan Clark:Uh-huh. Yeah. But, yeah. Okay. Let's talk about Krampus Night, right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Or or Krampus Nacht. And it happens on December 5, like we said, right, the eve of the feast of Saint Nicholas. This is when Krampus traditionally makes his appearances, particularly in the Krampus lauf. Right? In English, the Krampus run.
Lester Ryan Clark:Okay. During these parades, young men dress up as Krampus and they roam the streets scaring spectators and sometimes swatting people with their switches, right, with their Birch Ruten bundles. Right? Mhmm. Now doctor Zarka says, in some regions, Krampus troops stalk the streets from November to Christmas.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? Just every year, it's just getting, you know,
Kynan Dias:heard earlier earlier.
Lester Ryan Clark:But these troops consist of multiple revelers and it's considered an honor and often a rite of passage to don the horns. This reminds me so much of Setsubun in Japan. Oh, I don't know that. Yeah. In in February, they would have this holiday called setsubun where you had the oni.
Lester Ryan Clark:We've talked about the oni before. Right? These kind of kind of like, you know, devils, but, like, they're kind of like their own thing, like like ogre ish creatures, Japanese mythical creatures. But they were also kind of like spirits of bad luck. And during setsubun, you would have like these dry soybeans and you would throw them Uh-huh.
Lester Ryan Clark:At the oni. Right? And you'd be like, know, bad luck out, you know, good luck in. Right?
Kynan Dias:Oni wa sotto, Fuku wa
Lester Ryan Clark:huchi. Yes. Exactly.
Kynan Dias:Right? I did know that. I didn't know sotsubun. That's what I was celebrating as a kid and I didn't realize it.
Lester Ryan Clark:There you go. Yeah. But but yeah. Like and and it it was a thing when I was there. Like, you would have kind of like the men of the town.
Lester Ryan Clark:They would they would be the oni. They would dress up. They would put on the masks, the oni masks and and kinda like, you know, kinda carouse and and and scare the kids and everything. And the kids would get to throw beans at dad.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:It was like a fun little thing. Right.
Kynan Dias:Right. So, yeah, when you write it down that there's these these mobs of men putting on masks and scaring children in the street for a month and a half. Mhmm. Yeah. It doesn't sound it doesn't sound so bad, I guess.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. It doesn't sound as whimsical as it actually is. It's actually much more kind of like innocent and fun.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Okay. Okay. Great.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. In in both regions. Right? And when I heard about Krampus Nacht, like that's that that's kind of like the the image I got.
Lester Ryan Clark:But, yeah, you can you can watch Krampus Nacht parades, Krampus Loves, on YouTube, and they're amazing. And the you know, these people these people kind of like, you know, kinda like roaming the streets Mhmm. You know, you know, dressed in these, like, really big kind of like furry costumes with these amazing, intricate masks that look Mhmm. Terrifying, but they also look beautiful just because of, like, the work that has gone into them. They're a lot of them are made out of wood.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. And, like, yeah, these these are traditional, Krampus masks, called larvan from the Latin larva, which means both mask and ghost. Right? And they're hand carved, often featuring, like, you know, intricate details like real animal horns or real animal teeth. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:And these take months to create and are often passed down from generation to generation. And they have like, you know, the the the makers of these masks are considered like like old masters of their craft. Right? So it's a big it's a big big deal. Right?
Kynan Dias:Oh, yeah. Looking at some of those right now. That is some highly detailed stuff.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Right? And just imagine, right? Like you gotta like I don't think I've ever had a wooden mask on me. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:And those things are heavy. Right? Well, no.
Kynan Dias:Horns too. That's really heavy.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Kynan Dias:I didn't realize so I was in a movie where where we had kind of the motif is these antlers, and there's like this satanic type ritual thing, and we had to put these antlers on our heads, and like my character was being forced to perform this ritual. And what I didn't realize about antlers is that they have the skull still attached to it. They don't just like connect to each other and hang out. So there's
Lester Ryan Clark:There's not like a little hole in a deer's skull. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:They pop out or something. Yeah. Exactly. So in order to do this, I had to put, you know, this this deer skull on my head and actually do it. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Sorry. That just took me back some place.
Lester Ryan Clark:Took you back to that ritual. Now you say, Keenan, that that ritual was just just for play. That was you were acting. Right? But did you actually complete the ritual?
Lester Ryan Clark:Did you did you seal did you seal back the door? Or
Kynan Dias:I mean, that's the thing. If you chant something, know, when you're acting, it's still you're doing it, right? Yeah, right. What's the difference? I never left that movie.
Kynan Dias:There you go, right? Still in that movie today.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yes. You're just in a little snow globe on on somebody's on somebody's dresser. Right? Yeah. Now there's some seventeenth or eighteenth century evidence of bishops and archbishops trying to shut down Krampus Nacht.
Kynan Dias:Uh-huh.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? They tried they tried to cancel Krampus Nacht. There's a war on Krampus Nacht.
Kynan Dias:Right? Yeah. There were there were well, there was a war on Christmas that was actually done by Christians. Yes. Yeah, that succeeded for
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah, yeah, long you thought we were gonna say something else, didn't you? No.
Kynan Dias:No, Christians shut down the celebration of Christmas for a couple decades in England, yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right, what was his name again?
Kynan Dias:Well Cromwell, but then also Cromwell's, yeah, followers Cromwell even after he left, and then Mhmm. Some of the pilgrims who came to America even were from branches that, yeah, did not appreciate celebrating Christmas.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. Right. So there was so so Cromwell was trying to this was this was, like, during John Milton's time.
Kynan Dias:Right. Uh-huh. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. And and, yeah, Cromwell was was saying no Christmas because it's it's excess. It's Yep. It's debauchery. It's too it was invented by the Devil.
Lester Ryan Clark:So Christmas was invented by the Devil. We can't have it because we are Christians. Right? Right. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Imagine that folks. Right? Mhmm. And then imagine, if you will, right, our ancestors, the people who, you know, got on a boat and came over here. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? We're like we're looking at Cromwell being like, this guy's too soft. This liberal guy over here. Right? Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Sure. He cancels Christmas, but he permits dancing. Right. Exactly. What kind of heathen is this?
Kynan Dias:Wearing purple clothes and all sorts
Lester Ryan Clark:things. Purple clothes and butter on his bread. I mean, shush.
Kynan Dias:Right? But yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:That's us people. That's how that's those are the white people who came here. That's why we're like this.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. But there were so canceling so so, yeah, that's just part of the whole story of this of, like, sometimes Christmas was not seen as I mean, I don't know. You I can't speak for everybody, but like in in America, you often think of Christmas as being the holiday for Christianity. But scripturally, it's Easter. Right.
Kynan Dias:But then even even when
Lester Ryan Clark:you I were was told when I was when I was young, it's like like Easter is more important than Christmas.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. By far. That's the yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Kynan Dias:But then, like, even in the in the liturgical calendar, right, like, like, the churches have understood that, like, well, people like Christmas, and Christmas is great, and Christmas is fun, and it's joyful. And Mhmm. And so, like, really now Christmas is, the second holiday.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Kynan Dias:But but sometimes it hasn't been as my point. Sometimes it's been like not a really big deal within the liturgical calendar, not a big holiday in its own. Sometimes it's been canceled. Sometimes it's it's bigger than than other holidays. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:So then canceling Krampus knocked as a way to support Christmas or sometimes as a as a way to, like, attack Christmas. Yes. Right. Right. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:That we've just gone through these huge swings back and forth in all of this. Whether Christmas
Lester Ryan Clark:is anti you got anti Christmas Right. Folks being like, we need to cancel Krampus Noct. And then you got pro Christmas folks being like, we need to cancel Krampus Right.
Kynan Dias:Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. And then you got on both sides, it's like, we need to bring back and preserve Krampus Noct. Right? Right. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:And then you got, like, know, like, during Dickens' time, Christmas just, like, not being a thing. Like, imagine Christmas being, like, I don't know, Labor Day or something like that.
Kynan Dias:Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? And, like, there was you know, and people would be like, it's like, do people still celebrate Christmas? It's like Mhmm. Yeah. So and then, you know, thank you, mister Dickens, because now we got to, you know, boughs of holly.
Lester Ryan Clark:Not
Kynan Dias:balls. No. No. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:It's hard to talk about Krampus without talking about kind of like the the evolution of Christmas as well. Right? Mhmm. Yeah. But but okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:But yeah, back to this. Right? So we had these archbishops trying to trying to cancel Krampusnacht. Right? Obviously, they did not succeed.
Lester Ryan Clark:They didn't even make a dent. Right? Like people just like, know, as you tell tell them not to do something, and they're like, woah. It's, like, even louder. Right?
Kynan Dias:Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:But the interesting thing is that the problem that the bishops had with Krampus Nacht was not Krampus. Mhmm. Rather, it was the fact that these knights of carousing and mischief were getting a little out of hand. Right. So it wasn't that you had literal devils frolicking and cavorting through the streets.
Lester Ryan Clark:It was that the devils were frolicking and cavorting a little too loudly. Mhmm. It was a noise complaint.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. So, yeah, Krampus knocked celebrations began to fade away and soon were only kind of, like, celebrated in the rural areas. Mhmm. However, Krampus carton
Kynan Dias:Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right, Krampus cards became super popular around this time. It's it's almost like he just kind of changed form, right? Uh-huh. You know, in the late eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds, right? Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Remember Krampus? He's back in card form. Like, that's I mean, that's literally what it is. Right?
Kynan Dias:Yeah. I love these vintage Krampus cards I've been looking online, and, yeah, they're really fun.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. I think this is how I learned about Krampus. Mhmm. I think it was it was either when I was still over in Hong Kong, I got a Krampus cart and I got I got a Krampus cart from somebody that I had known in Japan. There were we it was like a bunch of, like, English teachers from all over the world in where, you know, where I was stationed in Japan.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? We had we had folks from England. We had folks folks from Australia. We had folks from Canada. And there was this one I'm gonna I'm gonna give him a shout out right now if he's listening.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, Keenan, you're gonna love his name. Mhmm. It's Carl. But hey, Carl. How's it going?
Lester Ryan Clark:But I think I think you were the one who gave me my first Krampus carton. Yeah. My first Krampus carton, and I still have it. You know, it's a little picture of Krampus, you know, running up a snowy hill with with a a a basket on his back and a kid inside.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Taking him and not telling the kid which of the options befalls him.
Lester Ryan Clark:No. No. It's like Yeah. Sense it's it's like it it is Christmas. We have to have a surprise, you know?
Kynan Dias:If you're gonna throw me to hell, just let me know. Just tell me. Oh, there's the fun in that. Yes.
Lester Ryan Clark:You have lost your Christmas spirit and that is why I'm taking you and and and and you almost made me say it. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. These are these are great.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm.
Kynan Dias:But when you if you were to look at a a Krampus card without knowing who Krampus was, it looks like the devil.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? It looks like it straight up Devil.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Yeah. Just the Devil. And a lot of the cards are done in red and, you know, and so, yeah, this is a shot of of the Devil with sometimes Saint Nicholas looks like Santa Claus, sometimes he's like a a saint. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:And so sometimes you have them in the same shots. It's like the Devil and a saint with children. Yeah. And the children are terrified to see them and sometimes happy to see them. And yeah.
Kynan Dias:So I don't know if you just found a box of these somewhere without knowing what they were. Right. Like, what you would think was going on.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. And usually, right, if, you know, not Santa Claus, but like you said, like Saint Nicholas Right. And he's wearing, like, you know, the the bishop's crown.
Kynan Dias:Oh, yeah. So looks like a bishop. Right? It's a devil and a bishop Yeah. Torturing children and giving them gifts at the same time as some
Lester Ryan Clark:of Yes. Right. Right. Yeah. And, yeah, so so it became popular in the late eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? And, yeah, like you say, Keenan, it's like various scenes, sometimes scary, sometimes humorous, and occasionally kind of risque. Right?
Kynan Dias:It's like spanking women sometimes.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Adult women. Adult women. It's like like Yeah. It's it's always it's it's either it's either, Krampus and Saint Nicholas with little kids Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Krampus by himself torturing little kids Mhmm. Or Krampus by himself with, like, an adult lady in, like, a swimsuit or something.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. And sometimes he has his giant tongue out. So, again, sometimes Krampus has a regular sized tongue. Sometimes he has a giant tongue that goes all around people's bodies. And Right.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. So it kinda varies. But yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Right. And and they often all of these often included the phrase, Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? So greetings from Krampus or greetings from the Krampus.
Kynan Dias:I know that you were saying, like, now today we kind of celebrate him hipstery or ironically, which is certainly true. But I think there's I think that a little there's a little bit of that here as well. Right? Like, this tongue in cheek sort of like, it's it's here's a Christmas Yes. Card in Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Right. And which cheek? I don't know. Right? Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:But no. Like yeah. No. I think I think by the time that Krampus Kotton were, you know, in circulation, I think that was that was, you know, when Krampus was kind of becoming in the same way that, like, you know, the devil kind of becomes like this spirit of fun and he appears on deviled eggs and, you know, all
Kynan Dias:that stuff. Yeah. Impish. He's he's more fun. Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Yeah. So there's Krampus cotton go up long enough that I did see a couple of them where Krampus is driving the children away in a car. Oh, okay. But still, like, from the nineteen nineties.
Kynan Dias:So I saw a couple of those.
Lester Ryan Clark:Interesting.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because so yeah. He came into the modern era.
Kynan Dias:Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:His oh, god. His his his Krampmobile.
Kynan Dias:Kramp my ride, as they would say. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Oh, yeah. You're right. Yeah. And these are so we're not talking about like modern ones made today, which, know, I think I think those also exist and I would love to get my hands on those. But we're talking about ones like when the car just came out and now he's now he's got a car.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. And he had the coolest new car. It had four wheels. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. And you could now now you can hear like, you know, it's like because you gotta be careful because you hear the, you know, the jingling of the bells and the Mhmm. And the and the of the of the of the rootin branches. Right? But now you also hear just You gotta
Kynan Dias:be careful. I can't tell you from back there, child. It's like, what are you doing? I'm not getting killed eating the throne of hell. I can't tell you.
Lester Ryan Clark:These things are too loud. House about to joke on the way. What is the difference between a naughty little boy and his little sister? Goodbye. His little sister is not in a sack.
Lester Ryan Clark:Anyway, you had a visa. You had a visa, which you are. Okay. Now this is where I'm a little bit confused. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:Because I'm seeing one source says there's this detail that often gets overlooked is how Krampus celebrations were actually banned in Austria in 1934 under the fascist government who saw them as evil and socialist. But we just had that other bit where doctor Zarco was talking about how the Nazis were like, no. Like like, we need Krampus. He's he's a connection to our old roots. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Like like, you know, the the Vikings and the Nordic men and everything like that. But now we're having this thing where it's like, no. You know? It's like, no Krampus. Krampus is banned.
Lester Ryan Clark:Krampus is, you know, like, I guess, too too fun for the Nazis.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. I saw the same I saw the same tension that I couldn't quite understand. The only the closest thing to, like, a a source source that I could see was an article from USC Today, so, the the University of Southern California student newspaper. So where they talk about this problem, Austria. So, yeah, couldn't I couldn't quite figure out the difference.
Kynan Dias:I mean, like, in Austria in '34, they were not run by the Germans. Right. So the German and Austria were two different countries back then. So I don't know if that's the case. But yeah.
Kynan Dias:But I I couldn't find a lot of others about, like, yeah, why Austria was banning Krampus.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah.
Kynan Dias:Like, I see that a lot, but I don't see, like, where people are getting that from.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Yeah. But then, you know, it during World War II, it did go underground. You know, just like all all these kind of traditions, right? You try to stamp them out and they kind of like, you know, they they kind of go into hiding and in hiding, they kind of evolve like in the in the new space that they kind of have to occupy.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? And then, you know, once the, you know, the bad stuff is over, they kind of come out. And and they're kind of like, you know, brand new. They got like a new form. Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. But, yeah, like, you know, speaking of that, we got all this popular culture today. Right? Krampus has seen this huge revival in recent years. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:The 2015 movie Krampus introduced him to mainstream American audiences, and he has appeared in everything from the Venture Brothers to American Dad. Mhmm. He's also a popular figure in horror themed Christmas merchandise and events. Right? There's other like, there's okay.
Lester Ryan Clark:There's one 2015 Krampus movie. Mhmm. But then there's also, like, these others that I've seen that they don't you know, the budget doesn't look great, but, you know, you can tell it's like, okay. That's supposed to be the Krampus. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Mhmm. Right. Yeah. And then in recent years, there's been this fascinating discussion about how Krampus represents a kind of counter counterculture pushback against the commercialization of Christmas.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right. While Santa has become increasingly sanitized.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:It's sanitized and and and commercial. Right? Mhmm. Which is interesting because it's like that's that's the Grinch. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Grinch is like anti commercialism. Right? It's like all the noise and all the the gifts and all the roast beast and all that stuff.
Kynan Dias:Right? Yeah. So again, it's like Santa eventually takes over I'm sorry, like American mainstream Santa Claus. Right. He eventually takes back that role of, well, I've got this Krampus here to beat you.
Kynan Dias:You know, I can't do that because I'm a saint. So now he leaves Cole, which I think is really interesting that it's still like bad children, their punishment is they still get some kind of gift. Yeah. So that you know, so it's kind of what Krampus is doing. Krampus would beat you with sticks and take you to Yes.
Kynan Dias:So so yeah. Okay. If you're bad, you still get gifts, but just not as good and not as many. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Mean, coal is like I don't know. Like, during some of these some of you know, during some points in history Yeah. You know, you'd be like, oh, good. Coal.
Kynan Dias:Well, Bob Cratchit wanted coal.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Bob Cratchit wanted coal. He only had one. Right? Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:Trying to trying to warm himself with that candle and it wasn't working. Yeah. But, yeah, folks, that was our quick run through of the Evolution of Krampus in our show about the evolution of the Devil. Right? And we can see that Krampus has we've we've tried to tame him.
Lester Ryan Clark:We've tried to put him in a box, and we can't put him in a box. You know, we're not we're not as good as as he is at at at stuffing smaller things into into baskets and and and and and sacks. I was trying to
Kynan Dias:Speak for yourself, Lester. But
Lester Ryan Clark:yeah, he cannot be contained.
Kynan Dias:Mhmm. Right.
Lester Ryan Clark:But, yeah. So, Keenan, what did you think of our our dip into Krampus lore?
Kynan Dias:Yeah. This was fascinating, Lester. I'm glad that we did this. I think that he it's yeah. Our entire show in microcosm.
Kynan Dias:I think that when people are, like, asking us about our show, I think we're gonna point with this one. Like, it's it's all the things that we, like, are are espousing about just the evolution of the actual Devil. Right? But in a a really fun, palatable way.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Right?
Kynan Dias:Yes, they start here. Start with their Krampus episode.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah, right. New to Banana for Scale, start here.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. New to Banana for Scale, get in the basket, give us our money, don't ask where we're going, be like your sister,
Lester Ryan Clark:yes. No. I I love this. I I I wanted to to do a deep dive on Krampus, I just, you know, it's like this this was the perfect excuse to, like, like, really get in there and and and look at all his oh, I forgot. He is I think there's a new movie with The Rock now.
Lester Ryan Clark:Red One? Red One. Yes. Yep. Right?
Lester Ryan Clark:Where where he he features. Right? He's they're having like a like a a strength contest, the rock and Krampus or something like that. Mhmm. Yeah.
Lester Ryan Clark:Right? I well, that's that's part of it. I don't think that's the whole story.
Kynan Dias:Okay. That's too bad. That's where they went wrong.
Lester Ryan Clark:But but yeah. But that and that Krampus looks pretty cool. But yeah. And I'm excited to talk with you about the movie, the 2015 movie Krampus, and and have our members listen in on that as well. And, that's gonna be coming next.
Kynan Dias:Very
Lester Ryan Clark:cool. But yeah. And then and stay tuned, folks. I think this is after this, we're we're we're jumping right back into Goethe's Faust part two. Mhmm.
Lester Ryan Clark:And it and it just gets crazier from here.
Kynan Dias:Yeah. I have no idea what happens.
Lester Ryan Clark:So But for now, folks, this has been another, well, very special holiday episode of the Devil's Details. I've been, Bell Schnickel.
Kynan Dias:And I've been Hans Muff.
Lester Ryan Clark:I knew you were gonna pick that one. I knew it. But, no, I've been, Lester Ryan Clark. You can summon me on all the socials as Lester Ryan Clark.
Kynan Dias:And I've been Keenan Diaz. You can invoke me on Instagram and litter box as Howdy Geenan.
Lester Ryan Clark:Yeah. Find more of our shows and other really cool podcasts at truestory.fm, or feel free to drop us a message at bananaforscalemail,mail,@Gmail.com. We got our Facebook listener group, banana for scale. That's a community for all of our shows, including this one. It's a private group, but just request to join, and we'll let you in.
Lester Ryan Clark:If you want more, consider joining us at truestory.fm/join and look for banana for scale. That's us. You get bonus episodes of all our shows, access to our Discord, and you get your episodes a week early. Pretty cool. That's just $5.
Lester Ryan Clark:What's that like to live deliciously? We're not even asking for your souls. Just give us a five pentagram rating on iTunes or Spotify or wherever you listen to our show. That and sharing the show by word-of-mouth or on social media helps our little podcast grow and find more cool people like you. Love and hisses.