We're gearing up for our fourth season which will begin in just a few weeks. Along the way, we've been reflecting on lessons learned in the last three seasons, reviewing which episodes have resonated with you. As such, we thought we'd use a bit of our break while we're preparing new episodes, to share a few of our favorites from the first three seasons.
This is where it starts. You're in a relationship that isn't working. Maybe you both know it isn't working. Maybe it's just not working for you. But for whatever reason, your marriage is not quite so magical as it once was and you're faced with the question: Should I get a divorce?
As you'll hear, it turns out this is about more than just missing magic. Wrapped up in this question are issues of addiction and grief that can only be faced by courage. Love hurts. And sometimes the cure to the pain is facing the question head-on.
But, this is not an episode in which you'll hear us encouraging you to get a divorce. All we're asking you to do in your process is to face it, to do the hard thing, to ask more of yourself such that you may make it to the other side of what ever comes next. Stay or go, something will change.
Thanks to all of you for downloading and listening to this show. We appreciate your time, and attention, and fortitute. To new listeners, welcome aboard!
Chapters
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster
When the Magic's Not So Magical Anymore...
Starting the Process
Addiction & Grief
Dragging It Out
But Should You Go Through With It?
How Do You Do It?
Signs It's Over
Term of the Week
Enforcing Contracts
Talking to Your Lawyer Regarding Contracts
That First Call to a Lawyer
Finding a Lawyer
Conflicting Out
Wrapping Up
Love hurts. And when you’re on the precipice of divorce, specific circumstances of your relationship don’t matter as much as the grief and loss you feel as you prepare to walk away from your relationship. This week on the show, we’re talking about the push and pull that comes when you realize you’ve reached the end, but you’re not sure how to start the next chapter.
Show Notes
We're gearing up for our fourth season which will begin in just a few weeks. Along the way, we've been reflecting on lessons learned in the last three seasons, reviewing which episodes have resonated with you. As such, we thought we'd use a bit of our break while we're preparing new episodes, to share a few of our favorites from the first three seasons.
This is where it starts. You're in a relationship that isn't working. Maybe you both know it isn't working. Maybe it's just not working for you. But for whatever reason, your marriage is not quite so magical as it once was and you're faced with the question: Should I get a divorce?
As you'll hear, it turns out this is about more than just missing magic. Wrapped up in this question are issues of addiction and grief that can only be faced by courage. Love hurts. And sometimes the cure to the pain is facing the question head-on.
But, this is not an episode in which you'll hear us encouraging you to get a divorce. All we're asking you to do in your process is to face it, to do the hard thing, to ask more of yourself such that you may make it to the other side of what ever comes next. Stay or go, something will change.
Thanks to all of you for downloading and listening to this show. We appreciate your time, and attention, and fortitute. To new listeners, welcome aboard!
Podcaster and co-host, Pete Wright brings years of marriage and a spirit of curiosity to the divorce process. He's spent the last two decades interviewing experts and thinkers in emotional healing and brings that with him to the law, divorce, and saving relationships in the process.
Host
Seth R. Nelson
Seth Nelson is the founding attorney and managing partner at NLG Divorce & Family Law. He is a Tampa-based family lawyer known for devising creative solutions to difficult problems.
Producer
Andy Nelson
Hailing from nearly 25 years in the world of film, television, and commercial production, Andy has always had a passion for storytelling, no matter the size of the package.
What is How to Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships?
Seth Nelson is a Tampa based family lawyer known for devising creative solutions to difficult problems. In How to Split a Toaster, Nelson and co-host Pete Wright take on the challenge of divorce with a central objective — saving your most important relationships with your family, your former spouse, and yourself.
Pete Wright:
Hello, everyone, and welcome to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships. I'm Pete Wright. We're gearing up for our 4th season, which will begin in in just a few weeks. Along the way, we've been reflecting on lessons learned in the last 3 seasons, reviewing which episodes have resonated with you. As such, we thought we'd use a bit of our break while we're preparing new episodes to share a few of our favorites.
Pete Wright:
This is where it starts. You're in a relationship that isn't working. Maybe you both know it isn't working. Maybe it's just not working for you. But for whatever reason, your marriage is not quite so magical as it was once and you're faced with the question, should I get a divorce?
Pete Wright:
It turns out this is about more than just missing magic. Wrapped up in this question are issues of addiction and grief that can only be faced by courage and time. Love hurts, and sometimes the cure to the pain is facing the question head on. But this is not an episode in which you'll hear us encouraging you to get a divorce. All we're asking you to do in the process is to face it, to do the hard thing, to ask more of yourself such that you may make it to the other side of whatever comes next.
Pete Wright:
Stay or go. Something will change. Thanks to all of you for downloading, listening to this show. We appreciate your time and attention and fortitude. And now, the timer on the toaster is about to dig.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show, everyone. I'm Seth Nelson, and I'm here with my good friend, Pete Wright. Pete, it's just you and me today. We've had some guests on the show previously, but you're stuck with me, brother.
Pete Wright:
They hey. They've been great. But you know what? This is where the magic is set. It's the magic.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. But when the magic isn't so magical anymore, how do we make that decision, Pete?
Pete Wright:
You that segue you just made made all the little hairs stand up on the back of my neck. I just want you to know you're a professional podcaster now.
Seth Nelson:
Well, I I appreciate that. And I would say that the hair is on the back of my neck, but I don't have my hair is on my head or the back of my neck. So
Pete Wright:
Hey. You know, I've been thinking a lot about this. We wanted to talk about that that that space that you're you're not yet in the act of divorce. Right? You are you are you realize that something has gone horribly awry in your relationship.
Pete Wright:
And I I think about it. All I've been thinking about is that last step when you're on when your when your kids say, hey. You should you should go jump off the high platform, dad. Do a cannonball off the 10 meter because peer pressure peer pressure. You wanna be the brave dad, and you don't like jumping off of high things.
Pete Wright:
And yet you're standing there, and you realize you're looking down. You realize this could I'm gonna do it wrong, and I'm gonna break every bone in my body.
Seth Nelson:
That's fair.
Pete Wright:
How do you know when to jump?
Seth Nelson:
Right. You just described fear. The unknown. Let me first start by being very clear. We're talking about today of relationships that you might you're considering going through a divorce, but there are no major physical violence.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. If you're in an abusive relationship, that's not the conversation we're having. Please seek help. Please 911 if you're in danger. Though those those issues are not easy to get out of, but those are issues that I think any reasonable person would say if you're being physically abused by your spouse, you should get out of that relationship.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
So that's not the issues we're talking about. We're talking about maybe it's 2 good people. There's no physical violence. No one's hiding money. There's no one's cheating on anybody.
Seth Nelson:
It's just not working. It's just not working for you. So I just wanna kinda lay that groundwork.
Pete Wright:
Well and and from your perspective, would would you classify that as more the norm in terms of just a percent of cases that you handle, or do you just is it just all of a complete potpourri of
Seth Nelson:
No. I would I I would say that that there are domestic violence is, prevalent in our society. It covers all socioeconomic classes. It is the type of thing that is hidden from your friends and others. So there's more of it out there than you would think, Pete, but that is not the typical divorce.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. The typical divorce, and I'm, you know, air quotes over typical, are 2 people that it's just not working. Now Right. There's a lot that goes around. It's just not working.
Pete Wright:
Sure.
Seth Nelson:
But for today, it's really about focusing on you. Kinda back to our one of our previous podcasts where, like, the most important relationship you have is the one with yourself.
Pete Wright:
Mhmm.
Seth Nelson:
Because, ultimately, it takes 2 people to get married, but only one to get divorced.
Pete Wright:
That's some real wisdom right there. I don't I don't think I've ever heard that.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you I'm I'm impressed you, like, buckled up for that going,
Pete Wright:
you know? A little bit. Is it you classify this as sort of your divorce. Right?
Seth Nelson:
What do you mean?
Pete Wright:
Well, I I just, you know, your your something wasn't working.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Right? Something wasn't working. And I'm very close, as I've said on this podcast before, with my former spouse, And we're gonna talk about kind of what your experience when you're thinking about breaking up and letting people down. So I'll fast forward and then rewind.
Seth Nelson:
But my mom was just devastated that I was getting a divorce.
Pete Wright:
Oh, about about your divorce?
Seth Nelson:
About my divorce. Wow. And, you know, at that generation, they all get together, they talk about the grandkids, or they talk about the holidays. And she has to say, well, I didn't have, you know, my grandson this holiday because he was with his mom and Seth did you know, on their parenting plan. I mean, that's not a fun conversation for a grandparent to have.
Seth Nelson:
Right? It's not my year to have Christmas or and there's no, you know, check your jurisdiction, but, you know, grandparents' rights are pretty thin, you know, if it all existent. So they only get to see the kid if the parent says you can see the kid. And when the parent doesn't have the kid because the kid's with the other parent, your former in law you know, your daughter-in-law or son-in-law, it it's tough. But what my mom has told me more than once, and I'm sure if she listening to this podcast, she'll say, yeah.
Seth Nelson:
But it's really a credit to your former spouse, not to you. But
Pete Wright:
Not to you.
Seth Nelson:
She just says that, you know, I'm amazed about how things have worked out and how well you guys parent together and how adjusted my son is. And when you're talking about going through this process, and I'll just start with this, it's are you letting yourself down? Like, you stood up in front of all your friends and family and said, yes. I will be married to this person for the rest of my life.
Pete Wright:
And that's a capital o oath right there.
Seth Nelson:
Right. And now you have to go and say, appreciate those wedding gifts, but we're gonna start arguing over who's dividing them. You know? Never the intent. And you gotta talk to your friends about, hey.
Seth Nelson:
It's not working out. Look. Everybody, your closest friends are gonna support you. Your family is gonna support you. They might say, look.
Seth Nelson:
We think this is the perfect person for you. If it's not working, it's not working. You you there's more support out there than you think, but it's still difficult to go through the process. So let's talk about that a little bit.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Let's let's talk about how that how that starts.
Seth Nelson:
Well, how do you think you would feel, Pete? How do you think you would feel?
Pete Wright:
Well, I'm I'm one of those people who finds himself often paralyzed by difficult decisions and choices, and I have to imagine that and, actually, I guess I can say there is a parallel. Right? When you're just a a breakup from really any long term relationship has maybe to to a lesser degree, but but some sense of that emotional impact of the decision decision to to end things. You know? And I've had a a number of multiyear relationships where we felt like we were on track toward toward marriage that ended because things weren't weren't working ultimately.
Seth Nelson:
And How did it physically feel? Do you remember?
Pete Wright:
Crushing. Yeah. No. I do. Of course.
Pete Wright:
And I think I think that, I don't know. I'd be interested in your thoughts on that. I think that sense memory of what it feels like the moment you realize it's over is I still feel it with past relationships.
Seth Nelson:
Hurts.
Pete Wright:
And yeah. And I've been married 21 years. And Right. I still feel that I don't even remember, in some cases, what they look like. It would take me a picture to conjure up specific details of what they look like.
Pete Wright:
That makes me sound terrible, but I remember what it felt like to end the relationship.
Seth Nelson:
Well, that's not uncommon. And here's why. Psychological studies show when you're breaking up with someone like you've just described, in the brain, it lights up the same as if you're being pricked with a needle. It's actual pain. It's the same feeling.
Seth Nelson:
So when they say love hurts, that's what they mean. Also, which when I read this, I thought it was just unbelievable, but it made sense to me. You're also going through the same thing that people go through who are addicted and they're getting off whatever their addiction is.
Pete Wright:
Oh, wow.
Seth Nelson:
So, you know, when you break up and then you go back, and then you break up and go back, that's like a relapse. That's what's happening in your brain. And you're also dealing with the 5 stages of grief and loss. And so for those of you out there who just cannot rattle those off at the top of your head, denial. Right?
Seth Nelson:
Like Yeah. No. This isn't happening to me. I can't believe she's leaving. No.
Seth Nelson:
Like, what what's wrong? It's not happening. Or I'm just angry. Are you Yeah. Hitting me?
Seth Nelson:
Then there's the bargaining. I'll do anything to make this work. Please don't leave. Okay. So that's when someone mentions they're getting ready to leave and then all of a sudden, okay.
Seth Nelson:
I'll change. I'll change. I'll change. I'll do better. I promise.
Seth Nelson:
Right? Depression, really dangerous there. You just fall within yourself. Nothing gets done. And then the most important one is acceptance.
Seth Nelson:
Of course, it's at the end. These are not linear. It's not like, oh, I'm in denial now and you know 2 weeks from now I'll be in anger and 2
Pete Wright:
Mhmm.
Seth Nelson:
I'll be in bargaining and 2 weeks later I'll be depressed. No. It's up and down, side to side, circular, web, however you wanna call it, and it can take a long time. It can take 3 years to deal with grief.
Pete Wright:
Well and I imagine it's not a a foreign concept to deal with these out of order too. Right? Like, I I can There
Seth Nelson:
is out of order.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. I can totally see reaching acceptance and still being chronically depressed about the turn in your that your life has taken. Right?
Seth Nelson:
Right. So there's all sorts of permutations to these 5. So being self aware and understanding that when you're saying to yourself, okay. Have I done everything I need to do to make sure that I could put my head on the pillow at night and say, I did everything I could to make this relationship work. It just it doesn't work.
Pete Wright:
Mhmm.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. I think that's really important. The flip side of that is that can't go on for 3 years, 4 years, 5 years, 10 years. I hear it all the time. Oh, no.
Seth Nelson:
This relationship was done 10 years ago. We just stayed together for the kids.
Pete Wright:
Okay. Can we now can we talk about that? Sure. Because, you know, I have a lot of friends as I'm sure many of us do, and, you know, and listeners out there whose own parents might have that same story. And I cannot think of one example where that has worked out in the way that the divorcing parents thought was going to work out.
Pete Wright:
It always works out in a way that is more damaging and breaks down the relationship far greater than they ever would, had they actually come clean with the kids and said, this is great. So that is that has been my experience in the subset of relationships that I know. My rigorous empirical research, it never works out the way they think it is. It's gonna work out. Is is that an accurate assessment of a broader landscape?
Seth Nelson:
Well, we answer it very simply. Yes. I agree.
Pete Wright:
Thank you.
Seth Nelson:
Thank you. Gonna get very convoluted. Yes.
Pete Wright:
I agree. Isn't that feels so much like a part of of bargaining. Right? This is a deal we're gonna make because we don't know how to deal with our own grief.
Seth Nelson:
Because if you're gonna deal with that, do people really sit down and say, this relationship between us is not working. We need to stay married until the kids are out of high school, and this is how we're gonna fashion our lives.
Pete Wright:
Mhmm.
Seth Nelson:
That's not what happens. What happens is they don't have that conversation or yeah. Look. Right? When the kids are out, we're out.
Seth Nelson:
But then one person's doing their thing, the other's doing their thing. They're not co parenting well together. They're they're not communicating well as husband and wife or spouse and spouse, whatever the case may be. And then there gets resentment and there's anger and there's, well, look at how the money's being done. And Mhmm.
Seth Nelson:
There's all those other issues that go on that are never discussed. And when people say I'm staying together for the kids, what they don't understand and it's because the studies are all out there. There are all these things about kids of divorce, all these bad things. Right? They don't do well in school.
Seth Nelson:
They're they fall out of their extracurriculars. They might be susceptible to falling into drugs and alcohol. There's all this stuff. Bad. Bad.
Seth Nelson:
Bad. The key from people that I have spoken to and I think doctor Gays told me this, but I could be wrong. The key to whether a child turns out okay in quotes or doesn't have all those negative things from divorcing parents is the relationship that the parents have.
Pete Wright:
Right. Right.
Seth Nelson:
If it is not negative, if it's a positive relationship, they're not throwing each other under the bus, they're not talking bad about each other. The more the parents can get along and co parent, the higher likelihood that kid is not gonna have those negative aspects of divorce. So it's not the divorce. It's avoiding the conflict. So let me say that again.
Seth Nelson:
It's not the divorce. It's avoiding the conflict and making sure those parents are in sync.
Pete Wright:
It feels like there's some reprogramming, some deprogramming and reprogramming we need to do around the language that we use there because, you know, you, you hear things like, well, what kind of role models are we? Are we, if we don't demonstrate that we can stick it out to our, you know, stick out our promises to each other in front of our kids. Right? But, really, what kind of role model are you if when you come clean to your kids that you're getting a divorce as they're adults that they realize they've been effectively lied to for 2, 5, 10 years. You can be, therefore, a great role model to your kids in divorce by way of figuring out how to how to puzzle through this relationship.
Seth Nelson:
My son, I know, is very, I would say, pleased, but it's just it's not even that. He's just so comfortable that he knows his mom and dad both love him and both care about him and care about each other. So he's big into theater. I mean, it's COVID now, so he's not doing any performances. But when he has a theater performance at school, whoever gets there first just saves the seat for the other parent.
Seth Nelson:
Like, I'll text, hey. I'm here. How many people are coming? Oh, 3.
Pete Wright:
Plus he also gets, like, 50 people show up.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Right. It's it's like crazy world. Okay. We'll take half the theater.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Right.
Seth Nelson:
You know, these small school theaters. So and then at the end, it's we all go up and give him hugs. Well, now he's with his friends. You know? He's 16 and all.
Pete Wright:
But There are limits, dad.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Exactly. But having that, and when he sees that compared to other kids in his peer group whose parents will not even come to the same performance, they get it. You know? Mhmm.
Seth Nelson:
They get that that he's so thankful that we get along so well.
Pete Wright:
That's that is role model behavior, and I feel like you cannot say that loudly enough. That is role model behavior as, divorced parents of a child, and you should honor and care for and cherish that.
Seth Nelson:
Right. But that is getting back to do you go through a divorce? Are you gonna get through a divorce? There's ways to do it and ways not to do it. But when you're making that decision, I'm just staying for the kids, I think you should really kinda think that through.
Pete Wright:
Oh, okay. So so at that point then, we're still standing on the edge of the 10 meter. Right? At at some point, you you have to figure out a way through that paralysis, I guess, and jump.
Seth Nelson:
One thing to think about is do you want to feel the same way you feel now a year from now, 2 years from now, 3 years from now? If the answer to that question is no, then you either really need to start working on that relationship the best that you can, or you need to get out of that relationship. But staying in there and having your eat away at your soul and not making progress on improving the relationship or not making progress to ending the relationship and being in that limbo, I just think is crushing. The question is then how do you do that? Right?
Seth Nelson:
So one, I strongly advocate that you go see a mental health professional that is not one that you necessarily see with your spouse if you're in marriage counseling. I think having your own person that is just there for you to help you get through these processes and get through your thinking, and get through these stages of grief and talk about how you're dealing with pain and different things that you can do is vitally important in making that decision. It's also, and this is a big one, fear. It's fear of the unknown. It's fear of being alone.
Seth Nelson:
It's fear of how the finances are gonna work. It's fear of what's gonna happen with kids if you have kids. It's the fear of looking your friends in the eye and telling you it's not working. So learning to deal with that fear is vitally important. And the way I deal with fear is get information.
Seth Nelson:
You're doing nothing wrong if you are reaching out to talk to a lawyer and saying, I don't know if I wanna get a divorce. I'm still working on this relationship, but I'm fearful of how things will go if I get divorced. Will I not have the house? What about money? What about this?
Seth Nelson:
What about that? It's okay to reach out and say, I'm just trying to figure out what the landscape looks like. Okay? And divorce is a process. It's not fun.
Seth Nelson:
We talked about you can't go over and around it. You have to go through it. But getting the information to give you a sense of what it may look like, quote, unquote, on the other side is also helpful. But just take it in. It's not, I'm calling because I wanna get the lawyer that's gonna take my spouse through the ringer.
Seth Nelson:
That's not what we're talking about.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
We're talking about how do you get some basic information so you can understand that process.
Pete Wright:
Are there any any signs or triggers? I I you know, you go back to to what it feels like to kind of recognize that this thing is over. And I'm I'm sitting here wondering, like, at what point will I look back and say, as somebody who might be on the way to divorce, what would I look back and say, oh, that was it. That was the moment that I like, I came home, and he was listening to his Big Head Todd albums again, and I just can't take Big Head Todd.
Seth Nelson:
I never think there's one moment, but, you know, you told me the story. I think it was the very first episode where she realized that she wanted to get a divorce when they were having sex, which I said was a really bad time.
Pete Wright:
The worst time. Yeah. Or is it is it when you make the call to the lawyer? Like, even like, if I'm going so far as to gather information, you know, from an attorney, is is that a is that a trigger?
Seth Nelson:
I don't think any there's one trigger. I think it's death by a 1,000 cuts. I think it's the the I don't think there's a straw that breaks the camel's back. Like, that was it. I think there are those moments that it's like, yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. I'm done. Like, you make the switch. And what counselors have told me when when I send people to marriage counseling, they say that they can work on any relationship. Obviously, they're psychologists only if both people are willing to do the work.
Seth Nelson:
But if one person is already out, if they're back at acceptance, if they've already broken up and I'm this relationship's done, I need to move on on my own, that counseling's never gonna work.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. Now there are some issues that are issues that like, yeah. That's the moment. Right? I wanna move across the country to be closer to my family.
Seth Nelson:
No. I'm not moving.
Pete Wright:
Oh, that's that seems like a moment.
Seth Nelson:
That might be a moment.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Right? So there's certainly things like that or I am not going ever again to my in laws for Christmas. Or whatever's going on there, that could be the like, I'm done with these. Okay? So there I think there are those moments, but those are so long and coming.
Seth Nelson:
So, like, if we're really splitting up because of how an in law treats you and you're not your own unit. Right?
Pete Wright:
You're splitting up for another reason. You're you're addressing a symptom there. Right. Well, I yeah. I mean, I I feel like you said for for me, you said the most important thing earliest, which is, you know, you listen to yourself.
Pete Wright:
And if you can lay your pillow your head on your pillow every night and answer the question, have I done everything that I can do to make this work? And you still feel settled that the answer is yes. Then that might be all the sign you're looking for.
Seth Nelson:
And I would just add to that. Give yourself a time frame.
Pete Wright:
Mhmm.
Seth Nelson:
Don't get stuck in, oh, but the next thing or maybe
Pete Wright:
I'm just gonna give it 10 more years.
Seth Nelson:
Right. That's where you're gonna get back into this whole psychology of addiction. Oh, I'm gonna mention it to him or to her, and then she says she'll change and then you come back. Like, you have to make a decision. And I'm not advocating don't please don't take this as advocating that the decision is to get a divorce.
Seth Nelson:
That's not what I'm saying here. I'm just saying you make a plan to build a house. Right? So make a plan to be in your relationship and improve it. Or make a plan to work, like doctor Gaze would say, in a very collaborative way to get out of your relationship.
Seth Nelson:
It doesn't have to be burn everything down. And I will tell you, Pete, I know that I find comfort when I put my head on the pillow at night and underneath it is Black's Law Dictionary.
Pete Wright:
Doctor. Take me to school. Take me to school, Seth.
Seth Nelson:
Some legalese here from Black's Law Dictionary, 8th edition. Legalese, the word is separation, legal separation or judicial separation. Number 1, an arrangement whereby spouses live apart from each other while remaining married, either by mutual consent, open paren, often in a written agreement, close paren, or by judicial decree, the act of carrying out such an arrangement. Alright, let's talk about that in plain English. If in writing, there's a legal separation, it would be a contract.
Seth Nelson:
So you're with your spouse, and you say, look, let's give each other a break. We're gonna write it down on a document. We're gonna sign it, a legal separation. That's between you and your spouse and how you'll handle finances or kid issues if you have them while you're still married but not getting divorced. Please, please check with your lawyer in your local jurisdiction because not all jurisdictions recognize or will enforce a legal separation even if you think it's an enforceable contract.
Pete Wright:
Alright, Seth. I I I wanna follow-up on on the dictionary here. You said there are some jurisdictional issues about whether or not the court will enforce a contract, and we're talking about separation. What's that about?
Seth Nelson:
That about? Yeah. Right. So I come over to your house, Pete, and you need it painted. And you say, Seth, paint my house for a $100.
Seth Nelson:
And I say, okay. That's an oil contract. I go. I buy the paint. I paint it.
Seth Nelson:
You're actually pleased with my work. You didn't realize I was such a handyman, and you give me a $100. No problem.
Pete Wright:
K?
Seth Nelson:
That's an enforceable contract. There are lots of contracts that people can enter into that are not enforceable. Can you think of any? Legal quiz, pop quiz, contracts 101.
Pete Wright:
Well, honestly, like, the example you just gave me, an oral contract, I would have said that's not enforceable. Like, it's not recorded anywhere. How is that it like, it's it it doesn't it have to be written down?
Seth Nelson:
Nope. You can have oral contracts. Alright. Now some some contracts require it to be written down. Like in Florida, if you're buying or selling land, it has to be written down.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. Alright. How about this? I have a contract with you. It's written down that every week I will buy illegal drugs for you from you for an x amount.
Pete Wright:
Hi. My name is Tony Montana, and I would like to talk to you about my cocaine problem.
Seth Nelson:
So I'm gonna buy Coke from you once a week for this amount. Just for the record, I have no idea how much Coke cost, so I'm not even gonna guess. And and and I breached the contract. You're gonna go into court and try to enforce that contract?
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Right.
Seth Nelson:
Of course not.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Okay.
Seth Nelson:
So there's all sorts of contracts that are enforceable. But here's the thing, and this is why in some jurisdictions, separation contracts are not enforceable. The example I gave to you, and I know I'm talking legalese, but it's important to understand this because people will say, well, we wrote it down. I got an email, and he confirmed it in my text. Okay?
Seth Nelson:
But here's the deal.
Pete Wright:
I feel like you were mocking me just now. So
Seth Nelson:
Just a little
Pete Wright:
bit. Yeah. Just a alright.
Seth Nelson:
That's only because you try to use the legal language. It's so cute. But here's the deal, Pete. When I come to you as a painter and you have me paint your house, that's what we call in the legal world an arms length transaction. Both people are on equal ground to negotiate that contract.
Seth Nelson:
You can go to another painter. You don't have to use me. I don't have to paint your house. I might get a better job down the street because he he's paying more or whatever the case may be. Inherently, a contract between spouses is not an arm's length transaction.
Pete Wright:
Oh.
Seth Nelson:
You are not at arm's length if you're sleeping together that night. Right?
Pete Wright:
Right. Right.
Seth Nelson:
So let's just be clear about that. And so when there's that potential, it doesn't even have to be true, there's the potential that there is an imbalance of power in negotiating and then executing that contract. That is a reason that the court might take a closer look or might say that's just not enforceable.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
So really check with your local lawyer in your jurisdiction about whether separation agreements are even enforceable because people might say, I'm thinking about going through this. They're actually having positive conversations with their spouse. And they say, let's give it a trial separation. Let's get a contract so we know who's paying what bills. You're gonna get an apartment.
Seth Nelson:
I'll stay in the house. I'll pay the bills at the house. I'll pay you so much a month so you can get the apartment, but you gotta start looking for work. You're kinda trying it out, testing the waters. And then the next thing you know, you get a divorce and you go to file and you're like, well, wait.
Seth Nelson:
This was our agreement on separation. We're still separated. We're getting divorced now. And we're like, that's not enforceable.
Pete Wright:
Mhmm. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
What what do you mean? It's written down. It's even signed and notarized that Yeah. They'll have all these mechanical issues on how they did it, but the contract in it of itself, even if it is, quote, unquote, fair, might not be enforceable.
Pete Wright:
Okay. So this is why we do this segment. Right? Working with your lawyer. So my first question is and I don't know if you can answer this even remotely quickly.
Pete Wright:
How would you go about resolving that? And and and if you're going into this, how do you how do you create a agreement that is enforceable? Or is that even something you would try to do?
Seth Nelson:
It's not even well, you have to check with your local lawyer if it in your jurisdiction. If you are in a jurisdiction that those separation agreements are enforceable, then I would advise, of course, talk to a lawyer.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Right? But the first step is, are they even enforceable? Because if not, you can have an agreement, which is fine. It just might not be an enforceable contract under the law. So if you're gonna move out and they say they're gonna pay the rent, I would tell you, put their name on the lease.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Because then it's an enforceable contract between the landlord and them. Yeah. Don't put your name in hoping that you're gonna get this gift every month.
Pete Wright:
Right.
Seth Nelson:
So there's those types of issues that even if it's not an enforceable contract, a lawyer might say, look, Are you seeing a counselor? You guys are trying a trial separation. What are you gonna do? Here are some things you can do that will make people do x, y, and z. Maybe you divide some assets and you put them in a bank account with your own name just so you have access so no one can cut you off.
Seth Nelson:
Right? There's things like that that can happen.
Pete Wright:
Alright. So we're working with our lawyer. We're at we're standing on the edge of that, 10 meter platform and, we're we're coming to a decision. What do you say to your lawyer in that call when you're when you're how do you work with your lawyer at this stage of your decision making process? What do you expect as the lawyer?
Seth Nelson:
I take it very seriously to make sure before I ever file a divorce case for a client to make sure that they are ready to go through this. That's if they're the one initiating it. They're they're the ones like, hey. Okay. I wanna file 1st.
Seth Nelson:
If in Florida, if you get, quote, unquote, sued for divorce, your your spouse goes files for divorce, technically, it's a lawsuit. 2 people to marry, 1 person to get divorced. Now I'm like, I'm sorry that you don't want it, but your gut you know, there's some very minor things not minor. There's some things that we can do to ask the court to send you guys back to counseling that the marriage is not irretrievably broken. In Florida, you can try to tell the court, please don't let us get divorced now.
Seth Nelson:
Make us go to counseling. It's usually unsuccessful, but there's kind of this little card that you can play. And some judges are like, no. It takes 2. Some judges are like, okay.
Seth Nelson:
I'm gonna stay in counseling for 3 months. Come back after 3 months. Some jurisdictions you have to be separated for over a year before you can actually get divorced. Really? Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
It's different in different jurisdictions. So those jurisdictions have enforceable agreements. I think Louisiana is one of them.
Pete Wright:
So this is why everybody goes to Las Vegas.
Seth Nelson:
That's right. That's right. Where there's a lot of unenforceable contracts.
Pete Wright:
A lot of unenforceable contracts.
Seth Nelson:
But when you're talking to your lawyer about getting this process started, okay, that lawyer, I believe, should be making sure that you're actually ready to do this.
Pete Wright:
So you're making that first call. How do you know who to call if you don't have a relationship with a lawyer? What is your strategy behind getting the best information from, the best legal resource that you can find? Recognizing that the first answer is look at your pocketbook.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Actually, the first question is, do they do a podcast?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Right. If the answer is yes, do not hire them. Do it. Right.
Seth Nelson:
So talk to your friends, look online, look at reviews, but we've talked about this. When you're calling a lawyer, have a plan on what you're trying to get out of that conversation and you're interviewing them. Mhmm. Right? It has to be the right fit for you and the right fit for them.
Seth Nelson:
I know there are people out there that when they are thinking about getting divorce, even if they're not there yet, they're so terrified about the process, they will ask around to say, who is the meanest, most unethical, or even a great lawyer that's just gonna put you through the ringer if your spouse was represented by them, they will go talk to that lawyer because once they do, that lawyer is not allowed to represent the other side. It's called conflicting out.
Pete Wright:
They have to pay for this session. Right? I mean, you're not just doing these complimentary exploratory sessions for nothing.
Seth Nelson:
I do free consultations all the time.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
So I would not be surprised if somebody said call Seth because you don't want your spouse to hire him.
Pete Wright:
Wow.
Seth Nelson:
So they might call me with no intention of ever hiring me, just they don't want me in the case.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Now
Seth Nelson:
I'm just gonna use me as an example. I can't think of any clients or well, they might perceive that. Yeah. Right? Right.
Seth Nelson:
Whether your perception's your reality. The point of that though is when you're thinking about hiring a lawyer, you wanna find someone that's the right fit for you. But I know people out there that are like, that lawyer is not for me because I know he's gonna burn it all down and take all my money and he'll litigate, litigate, litigate, litigate. Never listen to me, but I don't want my spouse to have that lawyer either.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
So but when you're calling and thinking about a divorce and you're just getting the information about what does it look like on the other side, what is the process like, that goes back to those list of questions. And you should start with, I do not know if I'm ready to actually do this. I'm just trying to understand the landscape. Get my ducks in a row. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
I might never hire you, which is fine. That lawyer should then be either they're giving you a free consultation and you're paying them for their time, and they should be open and honest and and go through through that conversation with you.
Pete Wright:
I don't know that it gets any easier knowing all of this stuff. I don't know that it gets any easier to actually jump off the platform, but I feel like, at least we have set the bar for what the experience might look like to set to begin the process of of actually separating.
Seth Nelson:
It's not easy at all.
Pete Wright:
Not easy.
Seth Nelson:
Right. And you have all those inner thoughts, and you're dealing with your own stages of grief. You're dealing with the just psychology and the, of the brain and the biology of it. It's like getting off an addiction. No one is saying this is easy.
Seth Nelson:
We're just saying or I'm just saying with your help is be true to yourself. Make a plan. Give yourself a time frame. Think it through.
Pete Wright:
Thank you, Seth Nelson.
Seth Nelson:
Thanks, Pete. Always a pleasure to chat with you.
Pete Wright:
Always a pleasure to podcast with you, my friend. And thank you everybody for downloading and listening to this show. You know, if this if anything that we've talked about has ever touched you, if you find it's helping you to, navigate the waters of your own separation, if you know somebody who might be going through a similar process, please share the podcast with them. We know it's it it might be we've we've been getting comments from folks who are listening to the show and they they feel bad that they're not sharing it out loud because of where they are in their process. It's okay.
Pete Wright:
We we sure appreciate you sharing and spreading the word of of the toaster, to those who who might need it. Even if you're not shouting it from the rooftops, any share helps. And so we appreciate you, and we appreciate your time. And, we sure appreciate your ears. So on behalf of Seth Nelson, I'm Pete Wright.
Pete Wright:
We'll catch you next week right here on how to split a toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
Seth Nelson is an attorney with Nelson Coster Family Law and Mediation with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, how to split a toaster is not intended to nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of Nelson Coster.
Outro:
Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
